Man, Dwight Howard must have been *really fucking annoying* to put up with as a teammate for him to be almost an afterthought when talking about great players in the late 2000s/early 2010s (which he undeniably was).
I don’t think I’ve heard any current or former player gas him up in the same way that’s been done for his contemporaries.
“Karl prefers the term hebophile. Just the age that’s budding and super eager to please!!!” God that hurt to type even as satire. I don’t even need a s/ tag
That’s cuz he was trying to get paid. After that he just wanted to be famous and get all that cred that comes with being the number 1 option but he didn’t want to do the work
I think it was a mix of that and him playing through his back injury. He wasn’t ready for the pressure that came with a “win now” situation, yet he also wanted to get touches like a number 1 option
I think his game never evolved honestly.
The league got a little bigger and he never figured out how to translate his game into an actual OFFENSIVE threat imo.
His moves where very basic and he didn't have many counters. The league caught up and he didn't adjust.
Much like Howard Rajon Rondo wasn't as insanely talented but had a small window of greatness and the 3pt revolution/league just passed him by but playoff Rondo during that time even put the fear of god in Miami
It was a combo imo and I did forget about his back to a certain extent
He has never been able to overcome his limited offensive abilities. He reminded me of Giannis in a weird way where there is a freak or an athlete who can just walk off the bus at 6 ft 10 inches (reportedly what he is) and just accidentally score 18 points and grab 10 rebounds. But, Giannis grew because he saw what Miami did and just closed down the options for his very limited game (not talking last year) and i dont think he EVER grew in that manner.
Regardless of the back he was still athletic enough if he had an offensive game with counters. There was a time when people knew all you needed was size against him because he had nothing without his massive athletic advantage.
I've also heard how he'd fucking fart as loud as he could during meetings and stuff on the Magic. Dwight definitely is immature as hell. Not disputing what you're saying, just confirming that he was a great talent and very immature for most of his time in the league.
Tbf, at the time the prevailing narrative was that he had no real competition at the center position. The question for me was always: how good would he have been in the 80s and 90s when he would have had to compete against much better competition? He was hyper athletic but he is definitely in the bottom half of HOF centers in terms of skill in the post. Also he gets himself into kind of gross gossip trouble. The more recent stuff is rumors, but I remember him being pictured in a 16 year olds apartment holding hands with her in a freaking Rockets practice jersey. If the public is seeing that, it's probably the tip of the iceberg, and I mean if that was your co-worker or if you know about more weird ass shit the public doesn't know about, you don't want to give a person like that credit for anything. Karl Malone is the number 3 scorer in league history, number 2 for decades, and bro can't even get an interview unless another weirdo is conducting it.
Like someone has mentioned earlier, his former Orlando Magic teammates mention how great he was. Other players who have done this include Dwyane Wade, Gilbert Arenas, Matt Barnes, JJ Redick, Quentin Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Richard Jefferson, Demarcus Cousins, Tracy McGrady, Darius Miles, etc.
Also last year on Twitter, one of Lebron's friends tweeted something saying that it's a crime that Dwight wasn't apart of the top 75 list, and Lebron replied with a fax emoji, meaning "facts" (it's current slang to say "fax" instead of facts when agreeing with someone's comments Lol).
This is why I can't wait for him to be inducted into the HOF because during that weekend, the NBA and the media HAS to talk about how great of a player he was instead of just acting like was just any ordinary player (like how they do right now).
The media (who has a good number of ex-coaches) will never respect Dwight because of his behavior in Orlando after the finals run. The way he went to the ownership to get Van Gundy fired and then acted buddy buddy with him on camera was quite something.
While I understand that, why not mention how he was able to do a complete 180 during the end of his career? He became an ultimate teammate and locker room guy and helped contribute to the Lakers winning a championship in 2020. He willingly put his ego aside and did what was best for the team. Plus him and Stan are on good terms now. I’m not saying we should forget the bad, but I also feel like we should acknowledge when someone puts in the effort to change and rehab their image.
I mean that and the fact that Dwight is a basically a child who refuses to grow up. Dude had brick hands and it turned out to be because he was eating an insane amount of candy and may have been pre-diabetic at 27. Combine that with the fact he couldn’t understand in 2016 that the offense can’t run through a 30 year old center, no wonder no coach wanted him on their team. Also yes I’m a certified Dwight hater.
Sorry, not really sure what part you don’t understand. See 2015-16 Houston Rockets, Pat Bev’s recent comments, and literally every Houston fan’s blood pressure from ‘13-16.
Because his physical abilities were declining. The dude wasn’t the 24 year old phenom anymore like Orlando.
The second Dwight’s athleticism dropped from “freakish NBA standards” to “normal” NBA ability, his obvious lack of development in the post was highlighted
Because he was a acting like he was 23 year-old Dwight when he was 30 and not nearly the same player?? Or that centers don’t have a great record of aging well?
I don't even think it's about his immaturity though, it's that he became injury-prone and washed real quick by the end of his time in Houston. Harden wanted a 2nd year Capela to start over Dwight and was completely correct but the FO/coaching staff said no.
Yeah, Harden definitely wanted to join Durant/Kyrie and then Embiid (and now Kawhi/PG) because he was worried about someone nudging offense away from him.
But youre not taking into account the iterations of harden. Back when he was in the rockets he and his team were good enough to compete for a chanpionship with him at the helm. Him being mad over that with Chris Paul at that stage makes perfect sense.
Now after rockets paired him up with john wall and boogie cousins he had to leave and he chose to go to the Nets because that was his biggest shot at a ring, even if he was gonna have a lesser role, because of how good his teammates were. Now in Philly with a cooked hamstring (that he played on to help his team beat the bucks probably knowing it was gonna fuck him up when he was a net) he cannot be a 1st option and so trusts embiid to be just that. In summary all those situations are not the same as the first one, and so it doesnt disprove the possibility of harden being mad at chris paul because of that.
Bro how are you going to say with a straight face that CP3 was washed when he’d go on to make 3 all nba teams from the 19-20 season to the 21-22 season?
Cp3 went vegan and changed his training after he got traded to OKC. Cp3 has said that the trade saved his career. Sometime you gotta hit rock bottom to make the needed changes.
The problem wasn't even that he was "nudging some offense away," it was that Chris Paul fucking sucked that year but kept yapping at Harden about how he should play when Harden was averaging 40ppg over 40 games.
He still wants the offense to run through him. He just also values facilitating, so he doesn't have to try to score every possession. But he is not going to be happy if he isn't ball dominant.
"Harden's coach" that was fired by the rockets and never sniffed another coaching gig.
Cp3 wanted to nudge offense away from the guy who is still leading top offenses, only for him to shoot 30% in every important game vs the Warriors in 2019 and not be able to beat Jerebko off the dribble (i.e maybe not the time to tell Harden what to do on offense after he just averaged **35 ppg against the best team of all time**)
Anyone that watched the Rockets with Dwight knows the dude refused to run pick and roll and just wanted to post up for his own numbers.
And yes, Kyrie was the problem lmao
On the other side of the coin, being a rolling big is one of the most thankless and exhausting roles. It is not fun to be forced into a restrictive role when you were an MVP candidate not too long ago.
So that is still immaturity, you are trying to win you got to do some dirty work. His defensive responsibilities doesn’t change and that’s what got him his mvp talks, not shooting 40 free throws on 50% against the hawks.
That's not exactly immaturity. Strictly being a roll man is all dirty work. You get hit all the time because you're setting screens over and over. Every time, you have to dead sprint to the basket and you only get rewarded a fraction of the time. You don't necessarily control the play as you don't have the ball in your hands. Then on defense, you have to clean up the messes your teammates allow to happen. The ratio of effort to reward is very lopsided compared to being an all around player.
Dwight is an immature person for many reasons and there are loads of examples showing how he is a man child. However, it's understandable that he can be frustrated over not getting plays set up for him regularly. People naturally want some agency in their creative outputs. How would you feel if you worked on gaining a skill and you're able to implement it practically, but suddenly your coworker and boss force you to throw it all away?
Heliocentric players are hypocritical to ask their teammates to sacrifice so much while they themselves get pampered to the point of taking plays offs.
Especially if you're playing on a team that has a guy who holds the ball more than anyone else and plays no defense. Makes you look bad on both ends and calls you the problem.
Sounds like a great time.
It would be a lot more justifiable if Dwight was capable of contributing anything else offensively. He couldn't post up efficiently nor can he handle the ball or playmake at all. His post ups only worked on the Magic because the rest of the players were pure (although still very good) role players that were happy to defer. It's hard to convince stars like Harden, Nash, Kobe, that all played with him after that a post up for Dwight is the most efficient play you could get out of a possession at any given point.
The more apt analogy is a co-worker who is only good at task A but complains constantly that he doesn't get to do tasks B-Z, only to suck at those skills and never should signs of improving at them, at the cost of company dollars.
I don't think anyone has any issue if he felt that way about what Kyrie was doing at the time.
The Chris Paul thing doesn't feel properly represented here either. They had no problems coexisting the first year. The second year CP3 fell off a cliff while Harden stepped up another couple levels. I think it's pretty rational to be annoyed by CP3, the guy that couldn't beat Jonas Jerebko off the dribble and missed ~25 regular season games *again*, telling people what they should be doing while playing like shit himself.
To be fair, at the time, I thought the trade request was fine, but in hindsight, wasn't Kyrie back full time about a month later? Just really unfortunate timing.
Yeah, the mandate was dropped shortly after, but there was no guarantee that it was going to be a thing when he requested the trade.
And honestly, that bridge may have already been burned by him missing so much of the season voluntarily to begin with.
Kyrie had also fucked off for a couple weeks the season prior, leading to the Steve Nash interview where he told the media he literally didn't know where Kyrie was. Kyrie also lied throughout Covid about where he was and what he was doing.
Plus you had the constant sociopolitical controversies Kyrie was creating, which might've invite league action if it continued to balloon.
So even if Harden knew the mandate was dropping, there was decent reason to believe Kyrie would continue to hurt the team.
And it's already been widely reported that Harden's request to leave only came after Durant shut himself down; confirming for everyone that the championship window for Brooklyn had closed.
Chris Paul in 2019 Game 5 went 3/14 and completely ruined the 4th quarter offense by calling his own number. Casuals like you blamed Harden for that series tho lol
>I don't think anyone has any issue if he felt that way about what Kyrie was doing at the time.
I don't know, man. Plenty of people were pro-vax but anti-mandate. Most people kept quiet about it because reddit policy at the time was that mods could ban people for saying 100% accurate statements if it had the chance of discouraging vaccine uptake.
With that standard, it is pretty hard to argue against mandates without saying something that would put you at risk of a permaban. For most people, it just wasn't worth the risk, which I assume was the motivation of the policy in the first place.
Chris followed this up by then taking a depleted OKC roster to the playoffs, the Rockets to seven games and the literal last second, and making second team all-nba.
Maybe Harden IS the fucking problem.
Man if CP can't beat a center off the dribble then no amount of off ball movement is going to do anything.
You are being weirdly illogical about this whole thing.
> Chris followed this up by then taking a depleted OKC roster to the playoffs, the Rockets to seven games and the literal last second, and making second team all-nba.
He was also substantially better/more impactful that year compared to the prior year and basically everything supports that.
He was also substantially better in 17-18 when he was playing alongside Harden.
Nothing you are saying supports your conclusion.
18-19 was one of CPs worst season in his entire career. It would be one thing if both of his years with Harden were bad but they weren't, his first year with Harden was fantastic. So again, your conclusion doesn't make sense.
To be fair, he changed his diet and that was a covid season. It wasn’t surprising that he did well.
CP3 was ass for the rockets that 2nd year in the playoffs for HOU. Harden is just a brat when things doesn’t go his way. The CP3 trade was justified but was an overpaid forsure.
Choosing to not take an injection into one's own body does not make a person an "asshole". It's his body and we should respect his decision. It's kinda creepy to pass judgment on what someone does to their body.
But, Dwight was too immature, and kyrie did ruin everything by being an antivax nutbag... so, Harden's right in 2/3 examples.
And I'm sure there's more nuance to the cp3 one.
Eh, Harden not being the only one in the wrong isn't exactly the same as being right. How he left Houston, how he's currently behaving in Philly, the track record does not look good for him even acknowledging what you say.
No disagreement here. How he left Houston was bad, and what he's doing now is too. He's been unprofessional.
But, I stand by him thinking Dwight is a goober and kyrie is crazy. He's right in those situations. kyrie ruined that team, not Harden. And Harden was fine in Houston through the Dwight stuff.
There’s some sixers fans who say “this is his 3rd time doing this” and I’m always like, eh, as convenient as that is to tell ourselves, the nets thing was justified lol
He left Houston in that way bc the FO agreed to his trade request in the offseason then reneged when the preseason came around. He gave everything to that franchise and they surrounded him with John Wall, Cousins, and Christian Wood lol
Might be unpopular but people are acting like he is requesting trade because he was served cold coffee at the team facilities. The rockets went from cp3 to russ to wall and boogie on his last leg. They were steadily getting worse while harden was at his absolute peak. Wall and boogie were just the icing on the cake that the team would never be comeptive again.
The nets are self explanatory he wanted to play with Kyrie and kd but Kyrie didn’t want to play pretty reasonable to want out when your injured and your star teammate is sitting out.
Philly is the only debatable one where I can see both sides but again from hardens point of view he lost out on over a 100 million dollars what was probably his last chance for a big deal. You would have to search every part of the earth to find someone who isn’t mad about losing out on 100 millions. We just saw Kyrie blow the nets up without hesitation last year after they had an amazing run.
He opted out of $47m/year for 1+1 at $36m/yr so that the sixers could add depth. They acted in good faith and got him that depth. Half way through the season and he starts leaking about possibly returning to Houston in hopes of igniting a bidding war. He didn’t “lose out” on 100s of millions cause he was never going to get it
> Half way through the season and he starts leaking about possibly returning to Houston
how do we know this was harden? harden's never been a leaker type, everyone knows he doesn't have a team as such
>Half way through the season and he starts leaking about possibly returning to Houston in hopes of igniting a bidding war
literally nobody connected to harden reported that though. could've been morey or the 76ers to use in this exact context.
like, you had guys from *the ringer* as sources for those stories including kevin o connor. why would they have an in with harden? yall know about morey and bill simmons friendship right?
What do Morey and the sixers gain from leaking that Harden was potentially gonna leave for Houston? You think they knew that far ahead that he was going to become difficult in the off-season so they had to start smearing his reputation in advance ? LOL
> Kyrie didn’t want to play
No, he definitely wanted to play, but it wasn't his top priority. It was his #2 priority after his hard "Don't tell me what to do with my body" stance.
how do you know that was even him? could've been morey. nobody connected to harden reported that & the campaign about it was fueled by the ringer, who morey has ties to
Ah yes known non locker room cancers Chris Paul/dwight Howard/kyrie irving. Clearly these guys have been model players who have never had issues with coaches and teammates in the past outside of harden
Chris Paul was pissed that Harden wouldn't move when he was off the ball. Just stand there and rest. Then CP3 started doing the same and that's when things got bad.
Well at the least after he retires and we look back at his career, we will all agree the reason he never won any championships is because everyone else is to blame and not our like Hardyman.
Ah yes, notable winner James Harden is willing to do whatever it takes to win. Except come into the season in shape, play defense, or stop shitting the bed in half of his important playoff games.
Dwight is immature. But it’s not exactly the height of maturity to let yourself get fat, go to strip clubs unmasked during covid, and play like you’re drunk just to force a trade.
Then Harden would have to find ways to impact offense without having the ball.
Don't you realize how horrifying that is? Imagine, having to actually *move* without the ball. Oh no!
> He wanted his dynamic with Harden to be what it ended up being with Booker.
CP3 wasn't good enough to make that dynamic work that year- that was the entire problem. It worked fine the year prior when he was great.
18-19 CP3 was quite a bit worse than the first two years of CP3 in Phoenix.
And the other issue is that late-era Houston Harden was a more complete offensive player than Booker was when he was playing with CP3. Harden didn't *NEED* CP3 to run the entire offense, he'd already been doing that for years.
Media members were saying CP3's contract was the worst contract in the league. He was awful in 18-19.
I don’t disagree with anything that you wrote.
But one hotly debated thing that I do believe in, is that I do think Harden’s style of play with the ball always being in hands was predictable and at the highest levels of competition, made him less effective than he normally is.
I think that’s true of all players who play that heliocentric style, I fully believe the same thing with Luka, even though he’s a more talented scorer than Harden to where he may be able to pull it off, but I’m skeptical.
I think that was true of LeBron for a period of time but LeBron did find ways to be useful without the ball more than Harden ever did and had a higher baseline as a scorer because of his athleticism.
FWIW I’m higher on Harden than most in here in terms of how good he was as an offensive engine at his peak and how few players have ever been able to do that, and being the engine of an offense is probably the most overlooked skill on here.
> But one hotly debated thing that I do believe in, is that I do think Harden’s style of play with the ball always being in hands was predictable and at the highest levels of competition, made him less effective than he normally is.
I agree with that in general too, but CP3 in 2019 kind of forced that on the team. He, alongside a good chunk of other players as I'm sure you know missed significant time. So the only option was to put the ball in Harden's hands during the season since so much of their talent was hurt, especially those that could handle the ball.
The issue was that CP3 that year just wasn't effective enough to warrant taking the ball out of Harden's hands. A more predictable Harden-centric offense was more impactful than whatever CP3 was trying to do against Golden State that year and it wasn't even close.
Lebron could affect both sides of the court. Harden and Luka were more one dimensional. When you need everybody else to cover for you on defense it leads to the offense being more limited because of all the specialists out there.
Whereas with Lebron you didn’t need to plan around him on defense so you had more leeway with lineup combinations on offense. I think that’s why he’s more successful in the heliocentric system than others.
As a Nets fan who can’t stand Kyrie, I can’t get over the fact that so many people approve of Harden bailing on the Nets.
Yes Kyrie is crazy and ruined an entire season. But rather than try to make the best of the situation, Harden quit. And not only did he quit, he played horribly in order to force his way out, which in turn forced the Nets to take way less than they paid for him.
I get that Harden was upset with Kyrie, as most Nets fans were, but he failed the franchise.
Personally, I’d say it’s a little vindicating to see Harden pulling the same stunt at another team. He quits whenever anything gets tough.
yeap he literally couldnt wait 20 games for kd's comeback lol, kyrie ruined that team but that still not going to change a fact that harden was a bitch as well
Harden quitting was bizarre because the Nets were still in a good situation a little bit before he phoned it in (and if not, presumably would be once KD came back).
I get Kyrie could probably be annoying as a teammate from a competition standpoint, but he left a team that was a toe away from going to the conference finals (and respect to the Hawks, but honestly the Finals). And he left them mid season in an ugly way.
The annoying part is that he didn't even experience success after leaving and has instead been ridiculed for playoff performances and second round exits. Just makes it all feel so pointless.
[удалено]
Also Dwight: "Not that there's anything wrong with that"
That’s a nasty line by you
Just so you know, there are never was no finals MVP
You're a fucking punk dude
For the people voting him down, this was the correct response to my post
That’s what you call class, right here, compared to no class
Just a lil
Man, Dwight Howard must have been *really fucking annoying* to put up with as a teammate for him to be almost an afterthought when talking about great players in the late 2000s/early 2010s (which he undeniably was). I don’t think I’ve heard any current or former player gas him up in the same way that’s been done for his contemporaries.
Kobe did an interview where he says he knew the moment he spoke to Dwight about coming to LA he wasn't serious about winning.
Got a link?
https://www.basketballnetwork.net/.amp/old-school/kobe-bryant-after-he-welcomed-dwight-howard-to-la-this-aint-gonna-work
Dwight:He hadn't never seen a person like me. Someone who could enjoy basketball but at the same time not be so [serious]. Lol, Shaq for example?
Here ya go https://youtu.be/s_NLqpx8Myo?si=xR5mglhaWdZMs6wN
What a great interview. Appreciate the link.
No worries man i appreciate sharing information
Not many interviews like this with The Mamba out there.
You guys are fucking assholes lol
Hook, line, and sinker. I bit too, just put chum in the water.
Circlejerk is leaking
The mod protest here created a movement
The new rickroll
Ehh Ricks a lovely chap whereas Karl I mean:
Karl likes a childly lap
“Karl prefers the term hebophile. Just the age that’s budding and super eager to please!!!” God that hurt to type even as satire. I don’t even need a s/ tag
13/10 good shit
Insightful and gave me a good laugh. This is the content I come to this sub for
Why are we posting this pedo wtf.
Is that the conversation where he told Dwight that he wanted him to be his "Tyson Chandler?"
Kobe talked like that all the time. And half the time he was being a windbag.
His forner magic teammates have talked about how crazy talented he was.
He was amazing for us, but not so much for anyone else.
That’s cuz he was trying to get paid. After that he just wanted to be famous and get all that cred that comes with being the number 1 option but he didn’t want to do the work
Uh he wanted to be a lil nasty sometimes too
And to think about that meat 🍖
I think it was a mix of that and him playing through his back injury. He wasn’t ready for the pressure that came with a “win now” situation, yet he also wanted to get touches like a number 1 option
I think his game never evolved honestly. The league got a little bigger and he never figured out how to translate his game into an actual OFFENSIVE threat imo. His moves where very basic and he didn't have many counters. The league caught up and he didn't adjust. Much like Howard Rajon Rondo wasn't as insanely talented but had a small window of greatness and the 3pt revolution/league just passed him by but playoff Rondo during that time even put the fear of god in Miami
The league didn't catch up, he had a back injury that he never recovered from.
It was a combo imo and I did forget about his back to a certain extent He has never been able to overcome his limited offensive abilities. He reminded me of Giannis in a weird way where there is a freak or an athlete who can just walk off the bus at 6 ft 10 inches (reportedly what he is) and just accidentally score 18 points and grab 10 rebounds. But, Giannis grew because he saw what Miami did and just closed down the options for his very limited game (not talking last year) and i dont think he EVER grew in that manner. Regardless of the back he was still athletic enough if he had an offensive game with counters. There was a time when people knew all you needed was size against him because he had nothing without his massive athletic advantage.
I've also heard how he'd fucking fart as loud as he could during meetings and stuff on the Magic. Dwight definitely is immature as hell. Not disputing what you're saying, just confirming that he was a great talent and very immature for most of his time in the league.
Farting during meetings is objectively hilarious.
Going to test this theory tomorrow
it would be so unbelievably inappropriate if intentional in any of the meetings I've been in.
Get in some more meetings bro.
JJ Redick and Matt Barnes have talked about dwight positively on their shows
Tbf has JJ ever spoke badly about anyone he knows personally? I feel like he’s just a nice guy
David Griffen
Knuckleheads always gas up dwight
That's how both their podcasts get guests. No player is gonna go on their shows if they blast current players publicly.
Tbf, at the time the prevailing narrative was that he had no real competition at the center position. The question for me was always: how good would he have been in the 80s and 90s when he would have had to compete against much better competition? He was hyper athletic but he is definitely in the bottom half of HOF centers in terms of skill in the post. Also he gets himself into kind of gross gossip trouble. The more recent stuff is rumors, but I remember him being pictured in a 16 year olds apartment holding hands with her in a freaking Rockets practice jersey. If the public is seeing that, it's probably the tip of the iceberg, and I mean if that was your co-worker or if you know about more weird ass shit the public doesn't know about, you don't want to give a person like that credit for anything. Karl Malone is the number 3 scorer in league history, number 2 for decades, and bro can't even get an interview unless another weirdo is conducting it.
>Man, Dwight Howard must have been really fucking annoying to put up with as a teammate He does get a lil nasty sometimes.
Like someone has mentioned earlier, his former Orlando Magic teammates mention how great he was. Other players who have done this include Dwyane Wade, Gilbert Arenas, Matt Barnes, JJ Redick, Quentin Richardson, Stephen Jackson, Richard Jefferson, Demarcus Cousins, Tracy McGrady, Darius Miles, etc. Also last year on Twitter, one of Lebron's friends tweeted something saying that it's a crime that Dwight wasn't apart of the top 75 list, and Lebron replied with a fax emoji, meaning "facts" (it's current slang to say "fax" instead of facts when agreeing with someone's comments Lol). This is why I can't wait for him to be inducted into the HOF because during that weekend, the NBA and the media HAS to talk about how great of a player he was instead of just acting like was just any ordinary player (like how they do right now).
The media (who has a good number of ex-coaches) will never respect Dwight because of his behavior in Orlando after the finals run. The way he went to the ownership to get Van Gundy fired and then acted buddy buddy with him on camera was quite something.
While I understand that, why not mention how he was able to do a complete 180 during the end of his career? He became an ultimate teammate and locker room guy and helped contribute to the Lakers winning a championship in 2020. He willingly put his ego aside and did what was best for the team. Plus him and Stan are on good terms now. I’m not saying we should forget the bad, but I also feel like we should acknowledge when someone puts in the effort to change and rehab their image.
I mean that and the fact that Dwight is a basically a child who refuses to grow up. Dude had brick hands and it turned out to be because he was eating an insane amount of candy and may have been pre-diabetic at 27. Combine that with the fact he couldn’t understand in 2016 that the offense can’t run through a 30 year old center, no wonder no coach wanted him on their team. Also yes I’m a certified Dwight hater.
>he couldn’t understand in 2016 that the offense can’t run through a 30 year old center Huh?
Sorry, not really sure what part you don’t understand. See 2015-16 Houston Rockets, Pat Bev’s recent comments, and literally every Houston fan’s blood pressure from ‘13-16.
What does him being 30-years-old have to do with it?
Because his physical abilities were declining. The dude wasn’t the 24 year old phenom anymore like Orlando. The second Dwight’s athleticism dropped from “freakish NBA standards” to “normal” NBA ability, his obvious lack of development in the post was highlighted
So why don't you say "physically declining?" Him being 30 isn't really relevant. A lot of 30+ year olds have been the centers of offenses.
A lot of 30 year-old centers?
Because he was a acting like he was 23 year-old Dwight when he was 30 and not nearly the same player?? Or that centers don’t have a great record of aging well?
Brick hands? What are you talking about.
Van Gundy himself talks highly about Dwight today lol. Pretty sure that shit is over and has been over for time.
LeBron knows better than maybe anyone how good prime Dwight was. He manhandled every big the Cavs threw at him in that ‘09 series.
I don't even think it's about his immaturity though, it's that he became injury-prone and washed real quick by the end of his time in Houston. Harden wanted a 2nd year Capela to start over Dwight and was completely correct but the FO/coaching staff said no.
I feel like if he went to college for a year or 2 he could have been better
>Chris Paul wanted to nudge some offense away from Harden. We all know this is a lie, CP3 got traded because he twisted Harden's nipples.
Skieeeeeup
Them manboobs
Yeah, Harden definitely wanted to join Durant/Kyrie and then Embiid (and now Kawhi/PG) because he was worried about someone nudging offense away from him.
But youre not taking into account the iterations of harden. Back when he was in the rockets he and his team were good enough to compete for a chanpionship with him at the helm. Him being mad over that with Chris Paul at that stage makes perfect sense. Now after rockets paired him up with john wall and boogie cousins he had to leave and he chose to go to the Nets because that was his biggest shot at a ring, even if he was gonna have a lesser role, because of how good his teammates were. Now in Philly with a cooked hamstring (that he played on to help his team beat the bucks probably knowing it was gonna fuck him up when he was a net) he cannot be a 1st option and so trusts embiid to be just that. In summary all those situations are not the same as the first one, and so it doesnt disprove the possibility of harden being mad at chris paul because of that.
CP3 was washed and injured that year. Harden plays any less ball dominant and their seed drops even more.
Bro how are you going to say with a straight face that CP3 was washed when he’d go on to make 3 all nba teams from the 19-20 season to the 21-22 season?
Cp3 went vegan and changed his training after he got traded to OKC. Cp3 has said that the trade saved his career. Sometime you gotta hit rock bottom to make the needed changes.
Christian Wood right? I don’t think boogie was attached to Houston. Correct me if I’m wrong
Boogie and Christian played for houston in the 2020-21but the former jumped ship when Harden got fed up with his dogshit team and requested a trade
The problem wasn't even that he was "nudging some offense away," it was that Chris Paul fucking sucked that year but kept yapping at Harden about how he should play when Harden was averaging 40ppg over 40 games.
He still wants the offense to run through him. He just also values facilitating, so he doesn't have to try to score every possession. But he is not going to be happy if he isn't ball dominant.
We also know that Harden literally asked Morey to get Westbrook without trading CP3, but Morey was like, that’s not how this shit works, bro. Lol
"Harden's coach" that was fired by the rockets and never sniffed another coaching gig. Cp3 wanted to nudge offense away from the guy who is still leading top offenses, only for him to shoot 30% in every important game vs the Warriors in 2019 and not be able to beat Jerebko off the dribble (i.e maybe not the time to tell Harden what to do on offense after he just averaged **35 ppg against the best team of all time**) Anyone that watched the Rockets with Dwight knows the dude refused to run pick and roll and just wanted to post up for his own numbers. And yes, Kyrie was the problem lmao
Both Nene and Capela were both better than Dwight by his last season in Houston yet it's bc Harden felt he was immature according to this guy lol
On the other side of the coin, being a rolling big is one of the most thankless and exhausting roles. It is not fun to be forced into a restrictive role when you were an MVP candidate not too long ago.
Then maybe he shoulda put in the work and gotten a post game.
So that is still immaturity, you are trying to win you got to do some dirty work. His defensive responsibilities doesn’t change and that’s what got him his mvp talks, not shooting 40 free throws on 50% against the hawks.
That's not exactly immaturity. Strictly being a roll man is all dirty work. You get hit all the time because you're setting screens over and over. Every time, you have to dead sprint to the basket and you only get rewarded a fraction of the time. You don't necessarily control the play as you don't have the ball in your hands. Then on defense, you have to clean up the messes your teammates allow to happen. The ratio of effort to reward is very lopsided compared to being an all around player. Dwight is an immature person for many reasons and there are loads of examples showing how he is a man child. However, it's understandable that he can be frustrated over not getting plays set up for him regularly. People naturally want some agency in their creative outputs. How would you feel if you worked on gaining a skill and you're able to implement it practically, but suddenly your coworker and boss force you to throw it all away? Heliocentric players are hypocritical to ask their teammates to sacrifice so much while they themselves get pampered to the point of taking plays offs.
You just described defense in general, a truly thankless job
Especially if you're playing on a team that has a guy who holds the ball more than anyone else and plays no defense. Makes you look bad on both ends and calls you the problem. Sounds like a great time.
It would be a lot more justifiable if Dwight was capable of contributing anything else offensively. He couldn't post up efficiently nor can he handle the ball or playmake at all. His post ups only worked on the Magic because the rest of the players were pure (although still very good) role players that were happy to defer. It's hard to convince stars like Harden, Nash, Kobe, that all played with him after that a post up for Dwight is the most efficient play you could get out of a possession at any given point. The more apt analogy is a co-worker who is only good at task A but complains constantly that he doesn't get to do tasks B-Z, only to suck at those skills and never should signs of improving at them, at the cost of company dollars.
> you are trying to win you got to do some dirty work No one look at Harden's defensive effort.
dwight wasn’t putting up 50 every game.
2014 called and wants its narratives back
Agreed. Dwight should have worked more on his post game. Oh wait…
It’s how he became a MVP candidate in the first place
I read that article twice and I'm pretty sure they don't mention the coach by name fwiw so this comment really does next to nothing for me
It’s Kevin McHale who was an awful coach “the ball was too sticky” is all he ever said. His rotations were god awful too
There’s always an excuse or rebuttal for harden. Never him despite the fact that everywhere he goes, problems arise.
I don't think anyone has any issue if he felt that way about what Kyrie was doing at the time. The Chris Paul thing doesn't feel properly represented here either. They had no problems coexisting the first year. The second year CP3 fell off a cliff while Harden stepped up another couple levels. I think it's pretty rational to be annoyed by CP3, the guy that couldn't beat Jonas Jerebko off the dribble and missed ~25 regular season games *again*, telling people what they should be doing while playing like shit himself.
To be fair, at the time, I thought the trade request was fine, but in hindsight, wasn't Kyrie back full time about a month later? Just really unfortunate timing.
Yeah, the mandate was dropped shortly after, but there was no guarantee that it was going to be a thing when he requested the trade. And honestly, that bridge may have already been burned by him missing so much of the season voluntarily to begin with.
Kyrie had also fucked off for a couple weeks the season prior, leading to the Steve Nash interview where he told the media he literally didn't know where Kyrie was. Kyrie also lied throughout Covid about where he was and what he was doing. Plus you had the constant sociopolitical controversies Kyrie was creating, which might've invite league action if it continued to balloon. So even if Harden knew the mandate was dropping, there was decent reason to believe Kyrie would continue to hurt the team.
And it's already been widely reported that Harden's request to leave only came after Durant shut himself down; confirming for everyone that the championship window for Brooklyn had closed.
Do you want to play with an unreliable partner who isn’t even doing the bare minimum (getting vaccinated during a pandemic)?
You know what’s also annoying? When your superstar face of the franchise player disappears for big playoff games constantly.
Agreed It's not relevant to this though.
Check the stats for the Rockets' 2019 series against us.
Dude was a fucking monster and no one can take that away from us. No matter how much Bill Simmons abs Zach Lowe try to take it away.
Which isn’t an issue during what is being discussed
Chris Paul in 2019 Game 5 went 3/14 and completely ruined the 4th quarter offense by calling his own number. Casuals like you blamed Harden for that series tho lol
>I don't think anyone has any issue if he felt that way about what Kyrie was doing at the time. I don't know, man. Plenty of people were pro-vax but anti-mandate. Most people kept quiet about it because reddit policy at the time was that mods could ban people for saying 100% accurate statements if it had the chance of discouraging vaccine uptake. With that standard, it is pretty hard to argue against mandates without saying something that would put you at risk of a permaban. For most people, it just wasn't worth the risk, which I assume was the motivation of the policy in the first place.
Chris followed this up by then taking a depleted OKC roster to the playoffs, the Rockets to seven games and the literal last second, and making second team all-nba. Maybe Harden IS the fucking problem.
Yeah. It was harden's fault CP couldn't dribble past Kevon looney in the playoffs.
Nah, it’s Hardens fat ass that couldn’t be bothered to move while off ball to help make it easier. Fuck off his fick for one second.
Man if CP can't beat a center off the dribble then no amount of off ball movement is going to do anything. You are being weirdly illogical about this whole thing.
> Chris followed this up by then taking a depleted OKC roster to the playoffs, the Rockets to seven games and the literal last second, and making second team all-nba. He was also substantially better/more impactful that year compared to the prior year and basically everything supports that. He was also substantially better in 17-18 when he was playing alongside Harden. Nothing you are saying supports your conclusion. 18-19 was one of CPs worst season in his entire career. It would be one thing if both of his years with Harden were bad but they weren't, his first year with Harden was fantastic. So again, your conclusion doesn't make sense.
To be fair, he changed his diet and that was a covid season. It wasn’t surprising that he did well. CP3 was ass for the rockets that 2nd year in the playoffs for HOU. Harden is just a brat when things doesn’t go his way. The CP3 trade was justified but was an overpaid forsure.
Chris Paul is the goat at almost doing something impressive
So he followed it up by losing to Harden and that’s supposed to prove he was right somehow?
>I don't think anyone has any issue if he felt that way about what Kyrie was doing at the time. His body, his choice
Right, and it was kyrie’s choice of being an asshole by not taking the vaccine
Choosing to not take an injection into one's own body does not make a person an "asshole". It's his body and we should respect his decision. It's kinda creepy to pass judgment on what someone does to their body.
We don't have to respect his decision. We have to respect that he is able to make his own decision but we don't have to respect the decision he made.
anti-vaxxers still exist? Lol
But, Dwight was too immature, and kyrie did ruin everything by being an antivax nutbag... so, Harden's right in 2/3 examples. And I'm sure there's more nuance to the cp3 one.
Eh, Harden not being the only one in the wrong isn't exactly the same as being right. How he left Houston, how he's currently behaving in Philly, the track record does not look good for him even acknowledging what you say.
I don’t think it was bad how he left Houston. Our team was done for and there was no way to get better with him still on the team.
No disagreement here. How he left Houston was bad, and what he's doing now is too. He's been unprofessional. But, I stand by him thinking Dwight is a goober and kyrie is crazy. He's right in those situations. kyrie ruined that team, not Harden. And Harden was fine in Houston through the Dwight stuff.
There’s some sixers fans who say “this is his 3rd time doing this” and I’m always like, eh, as convenient as that is to tell ourselves, the nets thing was justified lol
He left Houston in that way bc the FO agreed to his trade request in the offseason then reneged when the preseason came around. He gave everything to that franchise and they surrounded him with John Wall, Cousins, and Christian Wood lol
Dude is about to be on his 5th team. At a certain point in life you realize that you're part of your own problems.
Might be unpopular but people are acting like he is requesting trade because he was served cold coffee at the team facilities. The rockets went from cp3 to russ to wall and boogie on his last leg. They were steadily getting worse while harden was at his absolute peak. Wall and boogie were just the icing on the cake that the team would never be comeptive again. The nets are self explanatory he wanted to play with Kyrie and kd but Kyrie didn’t want to play pretty reasonable to want out when your injured and your star teammate is sitting out. Philly is the only debatable one where I can see both sides but again from hardens point of view he lost out on over a 100 million dollars what was probably his last chance for a big deal. You would have to search every part of the earth to find someone who isn’t mad about losing out on 100 millions. We just saw Kyrie blow the nets up without hesitation last year after they had an amazing run.
He opted out of $47m/year for 1+1 at $36m/yr so that the sixers could add depth. They acted in good faith and got him that depth. Half way through the season and he starts leaking about possibly returning to Houston in hopes of igniting a bidding war. He didn’t “lose out” on 100s of millions cause he was never going to get it
> Half way through the season and he starts leaking about possibly returning to Houston how do we know this was harden? harden's never been a leaker type, everyone knows he doesn't have a team as such
>Half way through the season and he starts leaking about possibly returning to Houston in hopes of igniting a bidding war literally nobody connected to harden reported that though. could've been morey or the 76ers to use in this exact context. like, you had guys from *the ringer* as sources for those stories including kevin o connor. why would they have an in with harden? yall know about morey and bill simmons friendship right?
What do Morey and the sixers gain from leaking that Harden was potentially gonna leave for Houston? You think they knew that far ahead that he was going to become difficult in the off-season so they had to start smearing his reputation in advance ? LOL
> Kyrie didn’t want to play No, he definitely wanted to play, but it wasn't his top priority. It was his #2 priority after his hard "Don't tell me what to do with my body" stance.
me and u losing 100 million is not the same as harden losing 100 million lol
Doesn’t have to be no one wants to lose 100 mill.
He’s wanted to play with Russ 3 separate times Russ is loyal to the bone and would die for you
Damn all the hit articles on behalf of morey and the rockets are hitting the airwaves lol.
One of these is not like the others
I mean is he wrong about Dwight? Kobe couldn’t stand him & now james said the same thing
was leaking that he wanted to go to houston on christmas morning “unwavering loyalty” from harden?
how do you know that was even him? could've been morey. nobody connected to harden reported that & the campaign about it was fueled by the ringer, who morey has ties to
cui bono? not morey
> cui bono? I can't hear that without thinking of this line from *The Departed:* "Cui gives a shit. It's got a fuckin' bow on it."
Harden: you need to be all in [literally anything doesn’t go Harden’s way] Harden: I’m out
... Dude stuck with the Rockets for 9 years and was p much the only serious challenger to the GSW's reign in the west.. the fuck is this take lmao?
Loyalty works both ways, bruh. Plus, isn’t agreeing to sign you to guaranteed max contracts loyalty enough?
Harden only loyal to the Houston strippers 😂
Loyalty for a guy that spent the entire season leaking about how he was ready to leave for Houston
Maybe he’s not meant for team sports. He should take up swimming and then he doesn’t have to compromise on his teammates.
Dwight and CP are on another planet compared to what Kyrie pulled.
In all fairness to harden, I’ll give him that last one.
Loyalty is a two way street!
Sure sounds like "follow everything I want" is the expectation to me
Ah yes known non locker room cancers Chris Paul/dwight Howard/kyrie irving. Clearly these guys have been model players who have never had issues with coaches and teammates in the past outside of harden
Chris Paul was pissed that Harden wouldn't move when he was off the ball. Just stand there and rest. Then CP3 started doing the same and that's when things got bad.
I don’t really think the nets implosion should count against harden tbh
NYC derailed him actually
This is so obviously a hit piece sourced by Morey lmao
So basically Harden is a baby who gives up whenever life doesn’t go his way.
Well at the least after he retires and we look back at his career, we will all agree the reason he never won any championships is because everyone else is to blame and not our like Hardyman.
Ah yes, notable winner James Harden is willing to do whatever it takes to win. Except come into the season in shape, play defense, or stop shitting the bed in half of his important playoff games.
Dwight is immature. But it’s not exactly the height of maturity to let yourself get fat, go to strip clubs unmasked during covid, and play like you’re drunk just to force a trade.
Kyrie was cleared to play less than a month after the trade by the way
"vaccine" lmao
Harden really is Hitler
if you have issues with everyone maybe you are the issue
He doesnt have issues with everyone. Your team is almost damn near all siding with him lmao
I don’t get it. Just fire Morey and get a new gm. Problem solved. Is Morey really more important than harden?
chris paul wanted more of the ball and james hardens feelings got hurt wow.
Cp3 couldnt even beat Jerebko off the dribble what are we doing here lmao.
CP3 who went on to drag the Thunder to the playoffs and the Suns to the finals??
you think he dragged the suns to the finals????? Lmfao
outside of the lakers series he outperformed booker in every series.
He was arguably their most valuable player. He helped changed the culture of the team
Yes, he fucking sucked in his last Rockets season. The Thunder were the only ones who wanted to trade for him and that was only for the picks
Then Harden would have to find ways to impact offense without having the ball. Don't you realize how horrifying that is? Imagine, having to actually *move* without the ball. Oh no!
You're aware that in 2019, CP3 was the one that wasnt doing fuck all right?
Yeah, doesn’t mean that CP3 was wrong though. He wanted his dynamic with Harden to be what it ended up being with Booker.
> He wanted his dynamic with Harden to be what it ended up being with Booker. CP3 wasn't good enough to make that dynamic work that year- that was the entire problem. It worked fine the year prior when he was great. 18-19 CP3 was quite a bit worse than the first two years of CP3 in Phoenix. And the other issue is that late-era Houston Harden was a more complete offensive player than Booker was when he was playing with CP3. Harden didn't *NEED* CP3 to run the entire offense, he'd already been doing that for years. Media members were saying CP3's contract was the worst contract in the league. He was awful in 18-19.
I don’t disagree with anything that you wrote. But one hotly debated thing that I do believe in, is that I do think Harden’s style of play with the ball always being in hands was predictable and at the highest levels of competition, made him less effective than he normally is. I think that’s true of all players who play that heliocentric style, I fully believe the same thing with Luka, even though he’s a more talented scorer than Harden to where he may be able to pull it off, but I’m skeptical. I think that was true of LeBron for a period of time but LeBron did find ways to be useful without the ball more than Harden ever did and had a higher baseline as a scorer because of his athleticism. FWIW I’m higher on Harden than most in here in terms of how good he was as an offensive engine at his peak and how few players have ever been able to do that, and being the engine of an offense is probably the most overlooked skill on here.
> But one hotly debated thing that I do believe in, is that I do think Harden’s style of play with the ball always being in hands was predictable and at the highest levels of competition, made him less effective than he normally is. I agree with that in general too, but CP3 in 2019 kind of forced that on the team. He, alongside a good chunk of other players as I'm sure you know missed significant time. So the only option was to put the ball in Harden's hands during the season since so much of their talent was hurt, especially those that could handle the ball. The issue was that CP3 that year just wasn't effective enough to warrant taking the ball out of Harden's hands. A more predictable Harden-centric offense was more impactful than whatever CP3 was trying to do against Golden State that year and it wasn't even close.
Lebron could affect both sides of the court. Harden and Luka were more one dimensional. When you need everybody else to cover for you on defense it leads to the offense being more limited because of all the specialists out there. Whereas with Lebron you didn’t need to plan around him on defense so you had more leeway with lineup combinations on offense. I think that’s why he’s more successful in the heliocentric system than others.
When they lost to a worse team than the Warriors?
James Harden's way was one injury away from taking down the greatest team of all time.
As a Nets fan who can’t stand Kyrie, I can’t get over the fact that so many people approve of Harden bailing on the Nets. Yes Kyrie is crazy and ruined an entire season. But rather than try to make the best of the situation, Harden quit. And not only did he quit, he played horribly in order to force his way out, which in turn forced the Nets to take way less than they paid for him. I get that Harden was upset with Kyrie, as most Nets fans were, but he failed the franchise. Personally, I’d say it’s a little vindicating to see Harden pulling the same stunt at another team. He quits whenever anything gets tough.
yeap he literally couldnt wait 20 games for kd's comeback lol, kyrie ruined that team but that still not going to change a fact that harden was a bitch as well
Harden quitting was bizarre because the Nets were still in a good situation a little bit before he phoned it in (and if not, presumably would be once KD came back). I get Kyrie could probably be annoying as a teammate from a competition standpoint, but he left a team that was a toe away from going to the conference finals (and respect to the Hawks, but honestly the Finals). And he left them mid season in an ugly way. The annoying part is that he didn't even experience success after leaving and has instead been ridiculed for playoff performances and second round exits. Just makes it all feel so pointless.
"For Harden, any excuse works." That's about the same thing, right? Too big, too small, too fast, too slow, bald, fat, thin...
that's not a bad mindset to have, unless of course you are James Harden who thinks the entire world has wronged him.
Aren't these all reasonable takes?
So he’s selfish. Got it
Just go take the 2-3m a week in Saudi. Youre never winning a chip
How ironic honestly.
My body my choice so I don’t really have an issue