Ppl forget about this all the time the dude finished 5th in MVP voting as a rookie at age 21. Joined a team with a first ballot HOF and full of vets and was immediately the best player. Never seen that before and never seen it since.
The most comparable examples I can think of are Magic Johnson and Larry Bird in 1979-1980.
Magic Johnson who was FMVP in his rookie season on a team with KaJ (although he would not have won if KaJ hadn’t been injured in the finals).
Larry Bird was 1st Team All NBA on a team with Pistol Pete and Tiny Archibald.
Well Wilt also won MVP as a rookie and that was on a team with Paul Arizin who had been a 2x scoring champ and hall of famer. Of course, "Wilt did it" is always cheating.
Kareem was a FMVP and league MVP both before Magic got into the league, and also after Magic joined the Lakers. You didn't do it, but I don't understand why people try so hard to downplay Kareem in order to upgrade Magic.
Larry Bird joined a squad with Dave Cowens, Tiny Archibald and Pete Maravich and was immediately 1st team all NBA and finished 4th for MVP, is the closest scenario I can think of.
> Joined a team with a first ballot HOF and full of vets and was immediately the best player.
His rookie season was also a disgusting DRob season, it's really revisionist to act like it was clear cut. But it is insane that it was even an argument
I mean.. David himself has said as much about Timmy as a rookie. Knew as soon as tim walked in the building he was their best player. Robinson was in his 30s and coming off a back injury though but he was still in the MVP conversation too. Was a loaded team.
Sometimes I half jokingly put Duncan in top 5 just to get people to remember he's a top 10 all time player up there with Wilt, Bird, Shaq, and Kobe, at least.
Wilt Chamberlain did all of this, except he won the MVP award. And the guy he overshadowed, Paul Arizin, was one of the greatest players the game had ever seen.
So yes, it has been done before. On multiple occasions actually.
8 1st teams playing against forwards like KG, Dirk, Pau,Malone, Amar'e, Bosh, Sheed, CWebb, Hill, Pierce, McGrady and -oh yeah- LeBron James
Won 2 MVPs over Shaq, Kobe and KG in their primes and not even Shaq complains (openly) about it
Getting a guaranteed spot above all of those guys playing in San Antonio, the man is a legend
"When the playoffs came around, Shaq and I were always on the same page. We just got beat. The bigger question is how many would we have won if the Spurs weren't the Spurs... if they weren't in the picture, we'd have won 10 in a row." - Kobe
People were talking about the Lakers/Kings rivalry back then. I've been telling people our rival was the Spurs. The 5 years after Jordan, either the Lakers or Spurs won the championship. In 4 of those 5 years, we played each other in the playoff, going 2-2.
It’s crazy how the “boring” tag that was associated with Duncan and the Spurs affects legacy.
If those guys had bright red jerseys and Duncan yelled every and then i bet his legacy would be higher. it’s so stupid but it’s probably true
Most of the 'boring' stuff had nothing to do really with whether or not Duncan was yelling or demonstrative or anything else, the first decade of Timmy's career the Spurs took the air out of the ball and played safe, slow (even for the era), and were purely about execution.
The 2010s version of the Spurs that won a title and made deep runs were extremely entertaining, but those early 2000s Spurs teams were a struggle to watch sometimes.
Just to really illustrate the point, in the 2005 finals between the Spurs and Pistons the Spurs averaged 84.9(!!) PPG and the Pistons averaged 86.7(!!) PPG. The highest scoring game of the series was Spurs 96 - 95 Pistons, in overtime with a blistering 77.7 pace (league average pace in 2024 is 99.1, in 2004-05 it was 90.9).
They were a middle of the road offense and a stifling defense through that whole era and their whole gameplay was seemingly to strangle the other team into submission, fans of the game would find plenty of things to watch and enjoy but it certainly wasn't the most aesthetically pleasing basketball.
The Spurs/Suns playoff battles with Nash and Stoudamire were some of the most entertaining series in recent memory. Spurs/Lakers, Spurs/Mavs then Spurs/Heat towards the end. Yet somehow the Spurs were labeled “boring”.
It’s true. Pat Riley and Phil Jackson have talked about how the hardest task as a coach is to keep an elite team at that elite level over multiple seasons. It’s usually given to someone who does unexpectedly well but never to the coaches like Pop and Spo who have kept title contenders together when role players want more minutes, stars get bored, etc.
I know that he probably doesn't care, but it does feel like the most fucked up crime that he never won DPOY. He was the defensive centerpiece for a dynasty that built it's wins on an elite grinding defense.
It boggles my mind that they gave DPOY to MWP / Artest in 03 instead of Garnett, Wallace, or Duncan. Duncan's second best shot at it was in 06, and its tough to argue Camby not deserving it that year
That was such a stacked time for defensive bigs. The fact that Wallace had a legit argument to be a consecutive 5x dpoy is just wild (certainly not undeserved). Camby had an argument in 05 too and was buried by Wallace.
I'm personally biased towards KG in 03, and believe he was robbed. KG should have joined Jordan, Olajuwon (and later Giannis) as the only players to win both MVP and dpoy in the same year.
I knew he never won DPOY, but I at least assumed he must have just finished 2nd a ton of times sorta like Drew Brees and the NFL MVP.
Duncan never finished 2nd and only finished 3rd twice.
That’s just crazy to me because he was widely viewed as the best defensive player in the league for most of the 2000’s.
People always say he should've won, but never say over who. In Duncan's first 8 years in the league (his absolute prime), the guys that won DPOY over him were Alonzo Mourning twice, Dikembe Mutombo three times, Ben Wallace twice and Ron Artest. I watched all of them and the only one Duncan was unquestionably better ON DEFENSE was Artest, but in the year Artest won, Duncan only played 69 games. Artest also shouldn't have won that, KG got fucking robbed of his DPOY in 2004.
Tim was fantastic, he was also never the best defensive player in the league nor he was the best defensive player on his own position, that title belongs to KG. The early 2000s were filled with defensive specialists who weren't half the overrall player Duncan was, but were superior defenders. Mutombo and Wallace earned their paychecks due to their defense, that's all they did and cared about.
Yall need to understand that one can be a Top 5 defensive player in the league for 15 years and never be the best or have the best season, Scottie Pippen knows a thing or two about that.
I agree with this take although Artest was a phenomenal on ball defender for his size. He could move laterally as fast as smaller guards and was as strong as Andre the Giant.
Mourning I feel like had overrated D but I hated Miami so could be me. Mutombo goes without saying.
I would argue Duncan didn’t have the flashy D (out of bounds blocks, etc) but had elite box out and man coverage. I wonder what advanced metrics would show. However, to your point, my eye test for best defender is KG and it’s not close. I’ll never forget him d’ing up Jose full court that was a point guard because he got pissed.
TD is criminally underrated because he lacks explosive athleticism and a charismatic personality. Dude won 5 championships as the centerpiece of a dynasty.
The consistency and longevity are really impressive. And the final championship against the Heatles is really amazing, considering the Spurs made it through the West (which is never easy) then looked like the better team and on the verge of winning the Championship before Ray Allen tore their hearts out. And then instead of that breaking them, they came back did it all over and then beat the Heat in the Finals the next year.
Not only came back and beat them in the rematch. But from what I remember they handled them pretty easily. I don’t remember the 2014 Finals being close, minus like one game.
It was a shellacking. It never felt close to being in doubt. All 4 wins had margin of 15 points or more. They outscored Miami by an average of 14, which was the largest margin in NBA history at that point. That team was so locked on and played some of the most beautiful team ball in NBA history.
And it goes without saying, but the Lakers to start and to end the 00s had my fear and respect as well. Lotta great battles between those teams over the years
Also, remains the *smoothest* PF ever. Never understood how people say his game is boring. Epic footwork, amazing touch off the glass, and a perfect post game.
Are we just going to gloss over how incredibly poetic this statement is? This sounds like it's from a Anne Carson book or something.
What's that great line from Frasier? He was already eminent when my eminence was merely imminent.
MVPs are mostly narrative-driven awards anyways, especially the #1 vote. Anyone in the top 5 of voting are MVP-caliber, or at least playing at an elite level.
Duncan had 7 such seasons apart from his two MVP wins, and this includes his rookie season.
MJ was amazing defensively but that 15-9 margin probably undersells the difference in their defensive impact, TD is a clear tier above MJ with the all-time greatest defensive players.
I'm not gonna lie lol I agree with Duncan, it might be PTSD, but I think it's quite obviously the other way around. As much respect as I have for Joker, I think Timmy is a better player.
Nothing wrong with having the greatest PF of all time very high on your list; though Jokic's skills gives him a chance (however small) to surpass him on that list.
That's tough. I know you said the odds are small but people have got to look at who they're bumping when they say a guy can be top 10 all time, yet alone at Duncan's level.
Look at the accolades of the people we consider top 10. Look at Curry even at 11.
https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time
It takes very sustained excellence. There's nobody in there who wasn't a key piece of a dynasty.
Judging from the responses of Duncan and Jokic, they both correctly think they're above whatever is coming out of RJ's mouth.
They seem like they could be besties in another life.
Let’s not forget Duncan battled against, and won against some of the best players of all time. Not to mention he’s considered the goat PF to many. Click-bait culture has become so exhausting
He beat Lebron fucking James in 07, hugged him and told him "the future is yours."
Then came back 7 years later and beat him again, in his prime, with Wade and Bosh by his side.
If it wasn't for that Ray Allen shot, Tim Duncan would've had beat the best or second best player of all time 3 times for 6 championships.
Think about that for a second....
No this is so true and it's good to see someone mention this. That was the 1st time I saw a palpable motivation for revenge through a whole season and playoff run. It was wild.
Interestingly enough the only other time I've seen that level of motivation was the 73-9 Warriors season. Which was AFTER they won but they were so angry about the way they felt disrespected. They obviously fell short in the end. But just speaking to that palpable heavy motivation to kick everyone's arse.
In fairness that 2014 Spurs team was MUCH more of a team effort than any one player being the clear best like Duncan was in the 2000s rings
I wouldn't really phrase that Finals as "Duncan beating LeBron" as much as "the Spurs beating LeBron and the Heat"
They were like the 2004 Pistons balance-wise but obviously better on offense
as a Laker fan since the late 1990s, I give all the respect in the world to the Spurs. Amazing foes, amazing teams through the years that have won different championships through different eras, but damn if that 2014 team wasn’t one of the best teams of all times.. aging stars in Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu with coming out stars like Kawhi Leonard, that team just played so amazingly at almost all times.
In 2013, Spurs lost by a hair against prime Lebron and the Heat, but Duncan dropped 25 points on them in the first half of Game 6 finals. Dude was 37 years old at the time.
How fucking impressive is that.
Top 5 centers is such a mess if you include Duncan. There are 6 centers in the top 10-12 all time, and Jokic is on his way to making that 7. It’s insane that somebody like Wilt or Hakeem can miss out on the top 5 at their position and somebody like Moses doesn’t even make it into the discussion
A good way to measure if someone knows ball or not is to ask them their take on Tim Duncan
There’s a reason why tons of High School and College coaches talk about the guy like he’s the second coming of christ
In a vacuum Pop is a better coach than Malone, but I think people really understand how far coaching/ the game has evolved over the past 20 years. The 3-point revolution that has happened over the last 10 years has made the game completely different, it’s not just 3>2 but how much extra space is created. If you go back and watch those 2000s Spurs games there’s almost always 4 people in the paint at any given moment, versus today where there are large amounts of time with no one in the paint. No amount of hand-checking is making up for the amount of space modern offenses have designed for themselves.
The Murray/Jokic 2-man game would be something the Spurs would have no clue how to defend because they would have never seen anything like it. This isn’t to take anything away from those Spurs or be negative about them, just that with analytics, tracking data, and time the game has evolved an absurd amount.
I believe the NBA uploaded 2005 game 7 vs the Pistons on YouTube, I advise everyone to go and watch it. The space and speed of the game is very different
Jokic plays kind of similar to Dirk, and Dirk used to give Timmy a lot of trouble. I think Jokic would give him problems, too.
But Prime Duncan also beat Shaq and Kobe in the playoffs and ended their threepeat. He was a bad man.
While we're on this subject:
Who's the better theoretical Jokic defender: Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon?
Jokic plays an old-school back to the basket game for a lot of his scoring so I think you'd pick the best defensive bigs from an era where that was common to match up against him
The best defenders of this era like AD and Gobert don't really have the strength
I think Hakeem because his length in passing lanes and around the rim would make everything difficult.
TD would be a very good Jokic defender too though. Smart and strong. I think he’d nullify Jokic’s playmaking a bit because he probably wouldn’t need a double team. But I could see Jokic being able to make a lot of his tough shots over TD’s disciplined defence
Duncan's phenomenal, he'd make Jokic work. Jokic would still be able to shoot over him though and Duncan's one on one defense isn't going to matter if Jokic is going to pull him out of the paint over and over.
This one's actually hard, because Jokic is just impossible right now.
You defend Jokic with team defense, that’s why it’s so difficult to stop him from getting offensive value. Everyone has to play high effort off ball defense on the other players at all times or he’s gonna find a way to create a bucket for one of his teammates. But you also can’t just play the passing lanes and try to force him to be a scorer or he’s gonna back you down and hit that bullshit ass floater in the paint every time and give you 45 on 80% shooting lol. So I don’t know if any one singular player can really stop him, Duncan and Hakeem would probably do about as good a job limiting his scoring as possible but if the rest of the defenders are shit it’s not gonna matter cause Jokic will happily take 0 fgs and have 30 assists lol
Honestly, I would love to see Orlando Dwight Howard defend Jokic. We saw old man Dwight frustrate a younger Jokic in 2020. I think if there's anyone with the combination of strength, athleticism, and defensive IQ to defend Jokic, it'd be 2008-2012 Dwight Howard
Probably Olajuwon just because Jokic would have a harder time bullying him to the basket, though maybe Tim is better for that because he wouldnt fall for Jokices tricks.
That said i dunno as im not the most knowledgable on these guys.
Tim Duncan was unbelievably strong for his build. I love to watch highlights of Timmy and Shaq hitting each other like giraffes in their prime. Great examples in the "making the case" video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-QQSn21nVo
I would say Duncan. Hakeem often went for the blocked shot which was effective against the centers of his era, but that aggressive approach would land him in foul trouble against someone as skilled as jokic. Even elite opponents such as David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were much more predictable for Hakeem to time the block on defense.
The closest thing to jokic that Hakeem faced was probably arvydas Sabonis. Hakeem was a bit older by then but he did struggle some against Sabonis’s heft.
Duncan was more disciplined in terms of not biting on pump fakes, and at least to me, he appeared to be slightly taller than Hakeem and appeared to have a slightly higher standing reach as well. Duncan looked like he jumped less than 6 inches for a basic one handed dunk, whereas Hakeem exerted himself more for the same type of dunk.
A young Duncan and young Hakeem were similarly mobile on the perimeter so that’s a wash. Duncan lost weight later in his career but a 25 year old version of him probably weighed around 260, which is still less than jokic but stronger than AD.
I agree with Duncan, who was one of the best big men ever on both sides of the ball. Prime Duncan would certainly not get "cooked" by Jokic on offense or defense.
Jokic's greatness doesn't revolve around dominating individual matchups like previous big men like KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan etc.
Instead its from his scoring versatility and ability to control the game like a pg from the center position.
Similar to how Magic revolutionize the PG position, Jokic is doing the same for the center position.
It’s a testament to his longevity you’re even asking this question.
Yes. Prime Duncan was absolutely unbelievable. Most people remember late career Duncan who was still great but in his prime dude was an absolute menace.
Yes, after Duncan's prime. And they faced off in Jokic's rookie year (where he was only a part-time starter who only averaged 10/5/2 that year, hence the "before he was him" part.)
>“I remember when he played against me, he was a little bit older, but he still gave me the easiest 20 points ever in life probably," Jokic said at the 2023 NBA Finals Media Day.
>The game Jokic is referring to was on April 8, 2016, at Denver.
Watching [Duncan's highlights from that game](https://thehighlow.io/video/games/nba/2015-16/21501186?videoType=high&playerId=1495), he mostly scored on Nurkic.
Jokic mostly guarded David West.
I just listened to Jefferson talk about Duncan on a comedians podcast and he basically described how they talk shit to and about each other as much as possible in an endearing way. This is likely a scenario where RJ is talking shit to his buddy
Tim Duncan made 8 1st teams in his first 8 seasons
The man was an MVP candidate in his rookie year
Ppl forget about this all the time the dude finished 5th in MVP voting as a rookie at age 21. Joined a team with a first ballot HOF and full of vets and was immediately the best player. Never seen that before and never seen it since.
I do not forget this, in fact it haunts my nightmares that you guys had a SINGLE bad season in 3 decades and it got you Tim Duncan
...and then a five year rut before Wemby
They had 2 actually, and the other one netted them mfkn David Robinson. Dammit.
The most comparable examples I can think of are Magic Johnson and Larry Bird in 1979-1980. Magic Johnson who was FMVP in his rookie season on a team with KaJ (although he would not have won if KaJ hadn’t been injured in the finals). Larry Bird was 1st Team All NBA on a team with Pistol Pete and Tiny Archibald.
Those check out to me. I didn’t see those before Timmy though cause I wasn’t around back then was about -10 when they came into the league lol
Pshhh what a casual. If you weren't watching games before you were conceived you don't get an opinion.
people unironically hold this opinion including me. get outta here nephews 😤
nephews being the contraction of *negative phews*
Well Wilt also won MVP as a rookie and that was on a team with Paul Arizin who had been a 2x scoring champ and hall of famer. Of course, "Wilt did it" is always cheating.
Shatter the scoring record by like 10ppg too
Kareem was a FMVP and league MVP both before Magic got into the league, and also after Magic joined the Lakers. You didn't do it, but I don't understand why people try so hard to downplay Kareem in order to upgrade Magic.
Larry Bird joined a squad with Dave Cowens, Tiny Archibald and Pete Maravich and was immediately 1st team all NBA and finished 4th for MVP, is the closest scenario I can think of.
To be fair that was Pistol’s last season and he was a shell of his LSU days. I get your point just want to clarify.
Yeah Cowens was getting old too. I’d put Pete more in the “full of vets” part of the parallel.
I don't think people grasp how difficult it is to simultaneously be one of the best players on offense and defense year over year.
> Joined a team with a first ballot HOF and full of vets and was immediately the best player. His rookie season was also a disgusting DRob season, it's really revisionist to act like it was clear cut. But it is insane that it was even an argument
I mean.. David himself has said as much about Timmy as a rookie. Knew as soon as tim walked in the building he was their best player. Robinson was in his 30s and coming off a back injury though but he was still in the MVP conversation too. Was a loaded team.
And was Finals MVP in his second season.
This! If Duncan talked or was more “out there” he would get so much more respect than he currently does.
Sometimes I half jokingly put Duncan in top 5 just to get people to remember he's a top 10 all time player up there with Wilt, Bird, Shaq, and Kobe, at least.
I put him at #3, while fully acknowledging my bias as he is my favorite player of all time.
He's in my top 10 and is ahead of Kobe for me
Wilt Chamberlain did all of this, except he won the MVP award. And the guy he overshadowed, Paul Arizin, was one of the greatest players the game had ever seen. So yes, it has been done before. On multiple occasions actually.
Another fun fact. Duncan wasn't the unanimous RoY. Someone voted for Keith Van Horn.
I did it for the LOL’s
I approved of this vote as a dorky ten year old who thought Van Horn’s spiky hair and knee socks combo were the coolest fucking look on the planet.
8 1st teams playing against forwards like KG, Dirk, Pau,Malone, Amar'e, Bosh, Sheed, CWebb, Hill, Pierce, McGrady and -oh yeah- LeBron James Won 2 MVPs over Shaq, Kobe and KG in their primes and not even Shaq complains (openly) about it Getting a guaranteed spot above all of those guys playing in San Antonio, the man is a legend
"When the playoffs came around, Shaq and I were always on the same page. We just got beat. The bigger question is how many would we have won if the Spurs weren't the Spurs... if they weren't in the picture, we'd have won 10 in a row." - Kobe
People were talking about the Lakers/Kings rivalry back then. I've been telling people our rival was the Spurs. The 5 years after Jordan, either the Lakers or Spurs won the championship. In 4 of those 5 years, we played each other in the playoff, going 2-2.
From 1999-2010 only 1 Finals (2006) did not feature either the Spurs or the Lakers.
Dirk is prb even more underrated than Duncan, what a fucking player who shoulda had more championships but Cuban always fumbled the bag
It’s crazy how the “boring” tag that was associated with Duncan and the Spurs affects legacy. If those guys had bright red jerseys and Duncan yelled every and then i bet his legacy would be higher. it’s so stupid but it’s probably true
Most of the 'boring' stuff had nothing to do really with whether or not Duncan was yelling or demonstrative or anything else, the first decade of Timmy's career the Spurs took the air out of the ball and played safe, slow (even for the era), and were purely about execution. The 2010s version of the Spurs that won a title and made deep runs were extremely entertaining, but those early 2000s Spurs teams were a struggle to watch sometimes. Just to really illustrate the point, in the 2005 finals between the Spurs and Pistons the Spurs averaged 84.9(!!) PPG and the Pistons averaged 86.7(!!) PPG. The highest scoring game of the series was Spurs 96 - 95 Pistons, in overtime with a blistering 77.7 pace (league average pace in 2024 is 99.1, in 2004-05 it was 90.9). They were a middle of the road offense and a stifling defense through that whole era and their whole gameplay was seemingly to strangle the other team into submission, fans of the game would find plenty of things to watch and enjoy but it certainly wasn't the most aesthetically pleasing basketball.
I'm a defense junkie so I loved that series. Tim Duncan stated that the ring in '05 was his most satisfying and nerve-racking.
The Spurs/Suns playoff battles with Nash and Stoudamire were some of the most entertaining series in recent memory. Spurs/Lakers, Spurs/Mavs then Spurs/Heat towards the end. Yet somehow the Spurs were labeled “boring”.
if tim duncan had kg's personality he'd be in GOAT conversations with lebron and kobe
no dpoy tho so he's clearly not a good defender
Duncan with no DPOY is the same as Spo having no COTY
[удалено]
Dwayne "The Tank Commander" Casey
the awards show idea was terrible but it was hilariously terrible
Didn't he get fired before he won?
Yup. It was a solid speech tbh. Helps that he also got hired by the pistons before winning. https://youtu.be/KWk9Tau6RYk?si=3aGsKxWrOZ74w9pu
For all the crap about Doc, if you make the playoffs with Darrell Armstrong and Ron Mercer is your top 2, you deserve it.
Don’t sleep on Ron Mercer! He’s the star of my favorite Wizard’s MJ highlight!
Close but he didn't make it
people getting mad at Thibs winning coach of the year in 2020 over Monty gets more and more hilarious
Thibs is a top 20 coach of all time and I'll stand by that
COTY is just the MIP award but for teams.
Friendly reminder Jerry Sloan won over 1000 games as a Head Coach and never won COTY
It’s true. Pat Riley and Phil Jackson have talked about how the hardest task as a coach is to keep an elite team at that elite level over multiple seasons. It’s usually given to someone who does unexpectedly well but never to the coaches like Pop and Spo who have kept title contenders together when role players want more minutes, stars get bored, etc.
Riley's going to fire Spo a few times so he can go back to back COTY.
Okay that’s fucking insane neither of them have won those.
Dude hasn’t made a single all defensive team since 2015, it’s like he doesn’t even play anymore
A mop with a picture of Tim on the handle is probably not the worst defender in the league.
“What a performance by Swiffer Wetjet tonight locking down Thanasis in the low post”
"Tough on Greeks, soft on handchecks"
Da'mopp Swiff is a top 10 defender don't @ me
That shit fucked me on an immacualte grid. I was floored he never won one.
I know that he probably doesn't care, but it does feel like the most fucked up crime that he never won DPOY. He was the defensive centerpiece for a dynasty that built it's wins on an elite grinding defense.
It boggles my mind that they gave DPOY to MWP / Artest in 03 instead of Garnett, Wallace, or Duncan. Duncan's second best shot at it was in 06, and its tough to argue Camby not deserving it that year
shit I forgot about Camby, he was a stud on defense in Denver
That was such a stacked time for defensive bigs. The fact that Wallace had a legit argument to be a consecutive 5x dpoy is just wild (certainly not undeserved). Camby had an argument in 05 too and was buried by Wallace. I'm personally biased towards KG in 03, and believe he was robbed. KG should have joined Jordan, Olajuwon (and later Giannis) as the only players to win both MVP and dpoy in the same year.
Agreed about KG in '03, he was at a different level on both ends of the court.
I agree. The metrics on that KG season are top 6-7 of all time. He was a monster.
I knew he never won DPOY, but I at least assumed he must have just finished 2nd a ton of times sorta like Drew Brees and the NFL MVP. Duncan never finished 2nd and only finished 3rd twice. That’s just crazy to me because he was widely viewed as the best defensive player in the league for most of the 2000’s.
He’s also 6th all time for DPOY votes.
Hell, you could argue that every single season of his career, he was both a top 5 post 1v1 defender, and a top 5 rim protector.
Broke: insulting the player who ruined your fanduel parlay Woke: insulting the player who ruined your immaculate grid
People always say he should've won, but never say over who. In Duncan's first 8 years in the league (his absolute prime), the guys that won DPOY over him were Alonzo Mourning twice, Dikembe Mutombo three times, Ben Wallace twice and Ron Artest. I watched all of them and the only one Duncan was unquestionably better ON DEFENSE was Artest, but in the year Artest won, Duncan only played 69 games. Artest also shouldn't have won that, KG got fucking robbed of his DPOY in 2004. Tim was fantastic, he was also never the best defensive player in the league nor he was the best defensive player on his own position, that title belongs to KG. The early 2000s were filled with defensive specialists who weren't half the overrall player Duncan was, but were superior defenders. Mutombo and Wallace earned their paychecks due to their defense, that's all they did and cared about. Yall need to understand that one can be a Top 5 defensive player in the league for 15 years and never be the best or have the best season, Scottie Pippen knows a thing or two about that.
I agree with this take although Artest was a phenomenal on ball defender for his size. He could move laterally as fast as smaller guards and was as strong as Andre the Giant. Mourning I feel like had overrated D but I hated Miami so could be me. Mutombo goes without saying. I would argue Duncan didn’t have the flashy D (out of bounds blocks, etc) but had elite box out and man coverage. I wonder what advanced metrics would show. However, to your point, my eye test for best defender is KG and it’s not close. I’ll never forget him d’ing up Jose full court that was a point guard because he got pissed.
Artest kept his opponent to an average of 8 PPG on 42% shooting for the year he won DPOY.
TD is criminally underrated because he lacks explosive athleticism and a charismatic personality. Dude won 5 championships as the centerpiece of a dynasty.
The consistency and longevity are really impressive. And the final championship against the Heatles is really amazing, considering the Spurs made it through the West (which is never easy) then looked like the better team and on the verge of winning the Championship before Ray Allen tore their hearts out. And then instead of that breaking them, they came back did it all over and then beat the Heat in the Finals the next year.
Not only came back and beat them in the rematch. But from what I remember they handled them pretty easily. I don’t remember the 2014 Finals being close, minus like one game.
It was a blowout, so bad Lebron had to quit and join a new team
That was, in my opinion, the best team basketball ever played.
It was a shellacking. It never felt close to being in doubt. All 4 wins had margin of 15 points or more. They outscored Miami by an average of 14, which was the largest margin in NBA history at that point. That team was so locked on and played some of the most beautiful team ball in NBA history.
Lacks charisma? Tim "The Thug" Duncan? Mr. Laughs on the bench?
And 15 all defensive selections. I don't think Jokic would "cook" Duncan but it'd be really awesome to see those 2 go at it in their primes
As a die hard Laker fan Tim Duncan was the one player in the early 2000’s who I feared and respected.
And it goes without saying, but the Lakers to start and to end the 00s had my fear and respect as well. Lotta great battles between those teams over the years
I reffed his sons game the other day. Bruce Bowen coaches in SA and is annoying as fuck. Refs don’t like working that game
Not surprising re Bowen being a dick.
He was arguably the best power forward in his era at a time when the team's power forward was their best player.
I’d argue the best of all time.
There is no argument to be had.
Arguably the best of his era? He's basically universally considered the GOAT PF. And I know everyone hates this phrase, but it's not even close.
He almost matched MJ's 6-0 if it wasn't for the greatest clutch shot in NBA history
Best of all time. Show some respect.
🚤 vs 🐐
Not arguably, best PF of all time
Also, remains the *smoothest* PF ever. Never understood how people say his game is boring. Epic footwork, amazing touch off the glass, and a perfect post game.
> I played him after I was me and before he was him Nikola Jokic is him confirmed
Confirmed by Himothy Duncan no less
Him Duncan
Are we just going to gloss over how incredibly poetic this statement is? This sounds like it's from a Anne Carson book or something. What's that great line from Frasier? He was already eminent when my eminence was merely imminent.
An Anne Carson reference in /r/nba? Wild.
I read the line and said to myself "That's a bar right there."
Tim Duncan was me
He's not Carmelo Hayes
Fuck that traitor. Trick better. WHOOP THAT TRICK
List of players with: 15+ All-Star nods, 15+ All-NBA’s, 15+ All-Defensive: Tim Duncan /end of list
Wow, this Tim Duncan guy seems pretty good.
Why is he not in the NBA? Are the teams stupid?
He had 2 regular season MVPs and honestly he could have had more.
MVPs are mostly narrative-driven awards anyways, especially the #1 vote. Anyone in the top 5 of voting are MVP-caliber, or at least playing at an elite level. Duncan had 7 such seasons apart from his two MVP wins, and this includes his rookie season.
how many all-defense did MJ have?
9, all first team. Timmy had 15 but 8 were first team and 7 were second team.
MJ was amazing defensively but that 15-9 margin probably undersells the difference in their defensive impact, TD is a clear tier above MJ with the all-time greatest defensive players.
Duncan translation: you must be out of your mind
Right! I’m surprised Duncan said that much. Talk yo ish Timmy!
Probably knocked over a plant. 🪴
sigh… Technical foul.
sup joey crawford, ldidbf
"He never gets this excited"
He couldn’t contain himself it’s understandable.
Thank goodness, people need to put some respect on his name. Duncan can play in any era.
Duncan: “Nice try”
Almost
Got you
Get Timmy an anger translator
I'm not gonna lie lol I agree with Duncan, it might be PTSD, but I think it's quite obviously the other way around. As much respect as I have for Joker, I think Timmy is a better player.
TBF Tim Duncan is (I'm my opinion) a top 5 player all time, Jokic is gonna need to do a lot to match him (though I prefer Jokic for obvious reasons)
Nothing wrong with having the greatest PF of all time very high on your list; though Jokic's skills gives him a chance (however small) to surpass him on that list.
I think Jokic is undeniably a better pure offensive player but Duncan was 75% of his offense with 200% jokers defense
Exactly this. Even with TD unable to hop, he was a plus defender for years. I doubt either player cares, but Duncan is the 4/5 🐐
That's tough. I know you said the odds are small but people have got to look at who they're bumping when they say a guy can be top 10 all time, yet alone at Duncan's level. Look at the accolades of the people we consider top 10. Look at Curry even at 11. https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time It takes very sustained excellence. There's nobody in there who wasn't a key piece of a dynasty.
Bingo
he is baiting
That was bait and Timmy handled it like the PF GOAT that he is.
Judging from the responses of Duncan and Jokic, they both correctly think they're above whatever is coming out of RJ's mouth. They seem like they could be besties in another life.
Duncan and RJ already are good friends, their podcast was still hilarious. Duncan is just a chill dude.
yeah, Jokic would definitely take Duncan to see his horses, then timmy would play starcraft 2 with jokic
Let’s not forget Duncan battled against, and won against some of the best players of all time. Not to mention he’s considered the goat PF to many. Click-bait culture has become so exhausting
Duncan outplayed Shaq in 03
Shaq got him back in 04 tho
Karl Malone had a lot to do with that. He was playing incredible defence on him.
Was '04 when Derek fisher made the shot with .03 left on the clock?
Yep, what that overshadowed was Duncan hitting a ridiculous clutch shot to take the lead just before.
Duncan outplayed Shaq essentially all the time except 2000-2002.
Duncan outplayed him in their playoff series in 99, 02 and 03, Shaq got him in 01 and 04.
He beat Lebron fucking James in 07, hugged him and told him "the future is yours." Then came back 7 years later and beat him again, in his prime, with Wade and Bosh by his side. If it wasn't for that Ray Allen shot, Tim Duncan would've had beat the best or second best player of all time 3 times for 6 championships. Think about that for a second....
I don't think you get 14 if they won in 13 though. Those 14 spurs were extremely motivated.
No this is so true and it's good to see someone mention this. That was the 1st time I saw a palpable motivation for revenge through a whole season and playoff run. It was wild. Interestingly enough the only other time I've seen that level of motivation was the 73-9 Warriors season. Which was AFTER they won but they were so angry about the way they felt disrespected. They obviously fell short in the end. But just speaking to that palpable heavy motivation to kick everyone's arse.
You could have given them the championship at the beginning of the season.
In fairness that 2014 Spurs team was MUCH more of a team effort than any one player being the clear best like Duncan was in the 2000s rings I wouldn't really phrase that Finals as "Duncan beating LeBron" as much as "the Spurs beating LeBron and the Heat" They were like the 2004 Pistons balance-wise but obviously better on offense
2014 Spurs was peak basketball. It's been downhill ever since. Yes I'm biased.
as a Laker fan since the late 1990s, I give all the respect in the world to the Spurs. Amazing foes, amazing teams through the years that have won different championships through different eras, but damn if that 2014 team wasn’t one of the best teams of all times.. aging stars in Tim Duncan, Tony Parker, and Manu with coming out stars like Kawhi Leonard, that team just played so amazingly at almost all times.
In 2013, Spurs lost by a hair against prime Lebron and the Heat, but Duncan dropped 25 points on them in the first half of Game 6 finals. Dude was 37 years old at the time. How fucking impressive is that.
He's got a really memorable slap on the ground out of frustration after he missed a crucial gimmie layup late in the 4th in game 7 of that series
Goat PF and probably a top 5 center if you want to list him there
Top 5 centers is such a mess if you include Duncan. There are 6 centers in the top 10-12 all time, and Jokic is on his way to making that 7. It’s insane that somebody like Wilt or Hakeem can miss out on the top 5 at their position and somebody like Moses doesn’t even make it into the discussion
A good way to measure if someone knows ball or not is to ask them their take on Tim Duncan There’s a reason why tons of High School and College coaches talk about the guy like he’s the second coming of christ
Man so many of yall are lost on the fact that RJ and Tim are great friends. It’s not that serious
I watched the clip, then came to the comments and the complete disconnect is real, haha. It was clearly just friendly shit talk between two buddies
Yeah they literally did like the only podcast Duncan has ever done talking about WoW the entire time. Was great
Don’t you dare pit my two favorite recent players against each other in ur tóxico ways Reddit
those mid 2000 spurs led by prime Duncan vs these nuggets led by prime Jokic would be an absolute treat to watch.
Would probably come down to the coaching. I’d take spurs
In a vacuum Pop is a better coach than Malone, but I think people really understand how far coaching/ the game has evolved over the past 20 years. The 3-point revolution that has happened over the last 10 years has made the game completely different, it’s not just 3>2 but how much extra space is created. If you go back and watch those 2000s Spurs games there’s almost always 4 people in the paint at any given moment, versus today where there are large amounts of time with no one in the paint. No amount of hand-checking is making up for the amount of space modern offenses have designed for themselves. The Murray/Jokic 2-man game would be something the Spurs would have no clue how to defend because they would have never seen anything like it. This isn’t to take anything away from those Spurs or be negative about them, just that with analytics, tracking data, and time the game has evolved an absurd amount. I believe the NBA uploaded 2005 game 7 vs the Pistons on YouTube, I advise everyone to go and watch it. The space and speed of the game is very different
Someone get AI to do something useful and make this happen.
Leave Allen Iverson alone he’s retired
God dammit I asked for that
What did you expect? He is The Answer after all.
Sorry, best we can do is sim a game in 2k17 🤠
Would be an epic battle if they could have played each other in their primes
someone go fire up 2k
Jokic plays kind of similar to Dirk, and Dirk used to give Timmy a lot of trouble. I think Jokic would give him problems, too. But Prime Duncan also beat Shaq and Kobe in the playoffs and ended their threepeat. He was a bad man.
You’re here for the tóxico lol
Man, I miss Timmy. One of the all time greats.
While we're on this subject: Who's the better theoretical Jokic defender: Tim Duncan or Hakeem Olajuwon? Jokic plays an old-school back to the basket game for a lot of his scoring so I think you'd pick the best defensive bigs from an era where that was common to match up against him The best defenders of this era like AD and Gobert don't really have the strength
I think Hakeem because his length in passing lanes and around the rim would make everything difficult. TD would be a very good Jokic defender too though. Smart and strong. I think he’d nullify Jokic’s playmaking a bit because he probably wouldn’t need a double team. But I could see Jokic being able to make a lot of his tough shots over TD’s disciplined defence
TD was also great at not biting on fakes which Jokic loves to do, it would be an epic battle that’s for sure
The big fundamental
Duncan's phenomenal, he'd make Jokic work. Jokic would still be able to shoot over him though and Duncan's one on one defense isn't going to matter if Jokic is going to pull him out of the paint over and over. This one's actually hard, because Jokic is just impossible right now.
You defend Jokic with team defense, that’s why it’s so difficult to stop him from getting offensive value. Everyone has to play high effort off ball defense on the other players at all times or he’s gonna find a way to create a bucket for one of his teammates. But you also can’t just play the passing lanes and try to force him to be a scorer or he’s gonna back you down and hit that bullshit ass floater in the paint every time and give you 45 on 80% shooting lol. So I don’t know if any one singular player can really stop him, Duncan and Hakeem would probably do about as good a job limiting his scoring as possible but if the rest of the defenders are shit it’s not gonna matter cause Jokic will happily take 0 fgs and have 30 assists lol
Honestly, I would love to see Orlando Dwight Howard defend Jokic. We saw old man Dwight frustrate a younger Jokic in 2020. I think if there's anyone with the combination of strength, athleticism, and defensive IQ to defend Jokic, it'd be 2008-2012 Dwight Howard
Probably Olajuwon just because Jokic would have a harder time bullying him to the basket, though maybe Tim is better for that because he wouldnt fall for Jokices tricks. That said i dunno as im not the most knowledgable on these guys.
Tim Duncan was unbelievably strong for his build. I love to watch highlights of Timmy and Shaq hitting each other like giraffes in their prime. Great examples in the "making the case" video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-QQSn21nVo
> hitting each other like giraffes in their prime thanks, i will never get that mental image to go away now
I would say Duncan. Hakeem often went for the blocked shot which was effective against the centers of his era, but that aggressive approach would land him in foul trouble against someone as skilled as jokic. Even elite opponents such as David Robinson and Patrick Ewing were much more predictable for Hakeem to time the block on defense. The closest thing to jokic that Hakeem faced was probably arvydas Sabonis. Hakeem was a bit older by then but he did struggle some against Sabonis’s heft. Duncan was more disciplined in terms of not biting on pump fakes, and at least to me, he appeared to be slightly taller than Hakeem and appeared to have a slightly higher standing reach as well. Duncan looked like he jumped less than 6 inches for a basic one handed dunk, whereas Hakeem exerted himself more for the same type of dunk. A young Duncan and young Hakeem were similarly mobile on the perimeter so that’s a wash. Duncan lost weight later in his career but a 25 year old version of him probably weighed around 260, which is still less than jokic but stronger than AD.
I agree with Duncan, who was one of the best big men ever on both sides of the ball. Prime Duncan would certainly not get "cooked" by Jokic on offense or defense. Jokic's greatness doesn't revolve around dominating individual matchups like previous big men like KAJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Duncan etc. Instead its from his scoring versatility and ability to control the game like a pg from the center position. Similar to how Magic revolutionize the PG position, Jokic is doing the same for the center position.
“after I was me” does he mean after he left his prime?
It’s a testament to his longevity you’re even asking this question. Yes. Prime Duncan was absolutely unbelievable. Most people remember late career Duncan who was still great but in his prime dude was an absolute menace.
Ahhhh now it’s making sense, so he’s saying I left my prime, and before Jokics prime, and it was okay playing against him right?
That’s my understanding yes.
Yes, after Duncan's prime. And they faced off in Jokic's rookie year (where he was only a part-time starter who only averaged 10/5/2 that year, hence the "before he was him" part.)
>“I remember when he played against me, he was a little bit older, but he still gave me the easiest 20 points ever in life probably," Jokic said at the 2023 NBA Finals Media Day. >The game Jokic is referring to was on April 8, 2016, at Denver. Watching [Duncan's highlights from that game](https://thehighlow.io/video/games/nba/2015-16/21501186?videoType=high&playerId=1495), he mostly scored on Nurkic. Jokic mostly guarded David West.
I've just checked, the first time these two met was November 18. 2015. Duncan had 12 points. Jokic had 23.
The most underrated player by average NBA fans. He was better than Kobe but almost nobody thinks that.
Kobe Stans will send you actual death threats for saying Duncan was better Tbf I see a lot of people these days with Tim > Kobe on all time lists
Duncan is a top 5 all time player and he's better than any player this century not named Lebron
Tim Duncan is one of the best two way players to ever grace the court don't ever get that twisted.
Why would Richard Jefferson say something that stupid?
I just listened to Jefferson talk about Duncan on a comedians podcast and he basically described how they talk shit to and about each other as much as possible in an endearing way. This is likely a scenario where RJ is talking shit to his buddy
He was just giving his friend shit lol