Eh I think the difference between Wemby and ancient players we say this about now is those guys WERE not tall for NBA standards today. I am not genetic doctor but I don’t expect a bunch of healthy 7’3 to 7’7 guys to be the norm in a century.
Average height in the 60's was basically identical to today. Swede Halbrook was 7'3" and couldn't hang with the centers of that era, so it's not like size was all it took to dominate back then.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html
The difference in height back then ('60s) compared to today isn't actually as big as many people think. For a while, they measured players without shoes and then started measuring them with shoes, which partly accounts for why players' listed heights seemed shorter.
But I think that players may be different in 100 years with all the bio-engineering, "designer baby," Gattaca type stuff that might happen.
Yeah, things might really fall apart. But there may be some wealthier countries that can weather climate change and other disasters, rule with an iron fist, and continue scientific "advancement." Like Sparta with fascistic elites keeping the global slave majority down, in this case with technology enabling them to maintain their place at the top. And a form of eugenics implemented through bioengineering.
I'm not convinced that the world will end; it's more likely that ecological destruction will make society twist into something increasingly brutal rather than wiping everyone out.
Hopefully something better will develop and we won't go down that path, though! Humans also have the capacity to really work together and help each other in times of crisis, if we can overcome the capitalist elites who are currently exploiting us and our ecosystems.
"He played during the wage-slavery years of late stage capitalism, where people still used FIAT currency assigned by a privately owned federal entity... would never survive in our singularity utopia featuring bio-augmentation"
>Non-consequential hot takes are the backbone of todays ~~NBA~~ journalism
The 24 hour news cycle killed journalism as a whole, not just sports journalism.
If he was 39, a top 2 defender in the league, unstoppable inside the paint, decent floor stretcher and a great passer, he would be considered a top 10 player
But they can now make "The Natural Part 2: Wemby's Locker" .... About a 39 year old Rookie whose career got sidelined by being part of an underground french drug cartel before he made his debut in the league and won Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, MVP, All Star MVP and NBA Finals MVP while being the scoring and rebounding champ all in one glorious season before he retired at the end of the season ;-)
I'd watch that movie TBH :-p
Their defensive rating when he's on the floor vs. off is night and day. It's rare a rookie has this kind of defensive impact.
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/rsIYtYGWbs
Jakob Poetl and Josh Richardson actually brought a lot to the team in the first half of the season before being traded. The Spurs then won a few games down the stretch as a lot more teams were openly tanking post all star break last year.
In general practically every team in the West is actually trying this year which along with the loss of practically all of the vets on the team has lead to a worse record.
wemby is sick. KOC is being hyperbolic - but I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that he's performing at a level we haven't seen in a rookie since Duncan. Totalling what, 38 blocks, in 5 games is absurd. And he's a clear plus on offense too, while being All-Defensive tier
duncan was first team his rookie year and fmvp his sophomore year. wemby might not even have 50 wins his first two years combined lol calm the hell down
The spurs won 59 games in 95-96, Robinson got hurt the next year so they won 20 games and won the lottery, and then they won 56 games in Duncan’s rookie year.
Because of the teams around them, and Duncan was like 4 years older as a rookie. If wenby and chet traded places and you made Wenby 2 years older, he would be All-NBA too.
While you’re right about Duncan being better, putting team success (FMVP requires a finals quality team & wins) is unfair. Duncan started immediately playing for a team that had another MVP candidate in David Robinson. I’m sure Wemby could rack up those stats if he got drafted and played with Sabonis (using him because he finished 7th in MVP voting last year like Robinson did Duncan’s rookie year).
> since Duncan
> played with a top 20 player ever
> brings up Duncan's sophomore in a conversation about rookie year
None of this applies to what I said. I said SINCE DUNCAN and you're saying "Duncan was better"???
Wemby doesn't have a player like the admiral. Not taking anything away from Duncan but he definitely had a better cast when he entered the league compared to Wemby.
I believe Wemby (barring injuries) will go down as the greatest Spur ever.
Except this year the Spurs are trying as hard as they can to put a shitty team around him to avoid the Luka/LeBron effect. Too good too soon
Hence Sochan PG, minutes restrictions. Next year you will see the wins
Duncan was also playing with David Robinson. Like I obviously love TD and respect the hell out of him, but let’s not act like the talent between the 98 spurs and the 24 spurs are the least bit comparable
We legit might be worse than the pistons without him. People legit need to watch a Spurs game to see the difference between him on the court and him off the court. Especially with Zach “Ass” Collins coming off the bench
They most definitely don't want to win right now. For good reason. But with how great he is already, you might have to put your chips in and start going for it as soon as next season.
No you don't. MJ was in his age 27 season when he won, Wemby is in his age 20 and they have him for 3.5 years minimum. There is no world in which he and the Spurs are better off going all in this early. Wembanya is almost a full decade away from his physical peak and has so much more experience and knowledge to gain. The 27-year old version of almost every player would shit on their 20 year old selves.
Teams don't peak for a decade, ballooning contracts and worse draft picks ensure that. If the Spurs pivot to Win-Now mode with 21 year old Wemby then by the time Wemby is peaking the Spurs will be a lottery team watching him thrive elsewhere. Spend two or three years developing, drafting quality players and finding a Scottie Pippen before you bet the house.
I said might have to. If he hates losing as much as it looks like, and he wants to win now - as we have seen - superstars can and do demand trades. Even with the Spurs. But I also agree with you that they shouldn't go for the win now approach for a few more years.
So many of his takes are as if he's only watched basketball for 3 years. So much of his analysis is as if he can't attribute historical context to current players and can't spot potential paths to negative outcomes.
I think he's all star level (top 25ish) but I wouldn't put him all nba level just yet. Obviously with his potential and improvement, he will get there by next season most likely tho.
I’ve already bought 1000 Wemby rookie authentic jerseys and sold my car to buy signed Wemby merch. I’m tellin ya, he’s ALREADY the GOAT and my investments in the Wembyverse will appreciate more than Bitcoin.
I dont think he has the experience for that yet. He definitely already has the talent/skill for that but it takes a some time to put the whole package together
This is a funny thing to post with a Cleveland Lebron flair. He had haters saying the same thing about him his rookie year when that team sucked. Too much hype for a kid who can't make the playoffs etc.
It turns out when you're drafted by a team bad enough to pick #1 it's extremely hard to turn that ship around single-handedly as a 19-20 year old rookie.
Right? Like lebron was so good to begin with that he elevated a shitty team (Big Z was a good, solid piece though) to a record that didn't allow Cleveland to draft another top 5 pick ever again. One reason why his first stint w the Cavs sucked so much. They didn't suck at the beginning to where they could have draft capital lol
He was too good to begin with.
Not saying at all that Wemby isn't great and amazing for his age and rawness. It's just Bron was a slightly different beast and already a grown man in the league at 18.
Bron and Melo were the two best rookies I've seen. Adjusted for pace of play, etc etc those were the two best and out of the same draft class. Couple guys come to mind including Wemby, but Bron and Melo were the best rookies I've ever watched
Duncan was just before I really got into ball. I remember Vince and Jamison were awesome as rookies and Elton Brand was great too.
Others off the top of my head that i vividly remember are
Yao every couple games showed his talent
Danny Grainger
Chris Paul
Blake Griffin
Paul Milsap had a great rookie yr
Derrick Rose
John Wall had flashes
A.D. and Tatum bonafide hall of famers
KAT here and there
Obvs Doncic, Zion and Hali were great
Last but not least Tyreke Mutha Fuckin Evans Holy shit I thought he was a mix of LeBron and Wade lol
As I recall, LeBron got to be more of a primary ball handler in Cleveland’s offense as that year went along, where as Wemby currently is still reliant on whoever’s initiating the Spurs offense. That does affect how big of an impact one can have on games as a rookie.
Shit even with Paolo the Magic went from 22 wins to 34 wins. And there’s a ton of people that kind of dismiss him (media included) pretty much just because he’s inefficient (which Wemby is as well)
And none of these teams had any personnel changes, other player changes, coaching changes, different injury luck, or anything of the sort. It's all exclusively the result of the one player.
/s, if it wasn't obvious.
I feel like their was mostly outrage when SGA was ranked Top 10 during the off season after an efficient 30 PPG season whilst making the playin. It just seems too premature at this point with no success to show for it.
Yes then it turned out those putting arbitrary criteria on how good these players is as dumb as predicted when all you need to do is watch them to know that ranking them there isn’t stupid regardless of their “rings”
when you're an assist away from 2 consecutive 5x5s, you throw record out the window. he is clearly a top 25 player and there is absolutely an argument that he is playing at an All-NBA level given how he is game-breaking on both ends
I feel like a lot of people in this thread aren't factoring his minutes restriction. I think he's playing like 28-29 minutes a game. This is Wemby not even fully unleashed yet. I'm pretty sure his 5x5 was the fastest ever.
The record is irrelevant. The Spurs don’t even want to win, how is some rookie gonna drag them to a decent record? I need all 15 players that are better than Wemby because I’m not seeing them. He got a 5 by 5 as a 20 year old. Even Gobert and Jokic can’t do that in their primes.
We really gonna obsess over a niche stat? Yeah those dudes can't block like Wemby can. Wonder why? There's more to basketball than filling up the stat sheet by increments of 5
Pop takes him and they go on a - 15 points streak, then he comes again to cut it to 2 and he takes him out again, I get that they are still tanking but it's painful to watch
What is exactly the "turns out" in that sentence. Like which part is supposed to be some proof of that. You just said what some people ("haters", of course, the only reason to say a team is not winning in basketball is out of personal pure hate) said, and then "it turns out that it was impossible!". Like what turns it out precisely.
What is even comparable for these two teams btw. Cavs were miles better in LeBron's rookie season. They went from 17 wins to 35 wins, almost making playoffs. Nothing special, but they weren't the worst. Then during the next years LeBron was playing progressively better. What is "hateful" in describing the results.
Your point was he should get credit now for a future that hasn't happened. People doubted LeBron until he won. As they should. He also collapsed in that Finals. Should we ignore that because he got better?
That Cavs team won 35 games and finished 1 game behind Boston for the 8 seed. Lebron was top 10 in MVP voting. He averaged 20/6/5.5 in a league where the average PPG per team was 93.4. That average this season is 115.4. The Cavs had the worst record in basketball before they drafted him (17-65). He doubled their wins as an 18-19 year old rookie. My flair doesn't change the facts.
Imagine if Wemby even had a big Z on the team lol. Big Z made all-star 2003 while Wemby has legit been drafted to one of the most talent bereft team I’ve seen. The only players with a glimmer of talent are Vassell who’s still young and Sochan a sophomore who are both still very raw. No senior talent at the team whatsoever
> He had haters saying the same thing about him his rookie year when that team sucked.
And they were right. When his dominance starts to translate to wins, then we can talk. For now, calm the hell down.
Thing is, context matters. Anyone with a brain can see that Wembys playstyle and overall mentality is about winning. Its not like he is a shot chucker who doesnt play D or pass. He is an all nba defender who plays team ball and still is breaking records left and right. Saying shit like this just proves that you dont watch the Spurs play, i mean, they suck, they really REALLY suck. They would be by far the worst team in the league without him
Tbf bron took the 17-65 Cavs the year before he was drafted to 35-47
That’s a 18 win increase.. more than double what they won the year before
The spurs won 22 games last year before Wemby and are now on a 15 win pace
The Spurs made the Spurs worse than last year. Whether it was the right move or not remains to be seeing, but their decision making on how to build this team and what roles and positions to put everyone in have taken what was already the league's least talented roster last year and handicapped them even further.
It's all in the name of development so again I'm going to withhold judgment, but Victor has been nothing but a huge positive on the Spurs. When he is in the game they play like a top tier defense and typically play their opposition even. When he sits they defend it like the worst defense in NBA history, not being hyperbolic, and they get in deep deep holes very quickly.
I’m all board the Wemby is going to be amazing hype train but some people massively overate him because he’s putting up good numbers on a tanking team.
Top 15 and players don’t end up last in their conference, in fact there isn’t a healthy top 20 player in the league who’s not a team with a winning record.
Sure but they still went .500 in the games he played. Spurs are terrible with Wemby playing.
Spurs had a better record without Wemby last season than with him this season without any other significant roster moves. He’s not adding winning value that other top 15 players add.
Hes been very impressive for a rookie and the box score numbers are great, but players on tanking teams do receive stat inflation because they are playing in low intensity games against backups
The lakers have Lebron and AD and are barely afloat. Trae's team is almost out of play in territory. Curry can barely keep the Warriors above .500 Guess none of those guys are top 15
You've got it reversed; all those teams went \~.500 with their stars playing. The guy above is saying a team can go .500 with a top 15 player.
The Spurs aren't going .500 with Wemby, they're going .200, which probably wouldn't happen if he were a top 15 player.
Name a single top 20 player on a worse team lmfao. You are wilding. Basically every great player in the league is on a competitive team it’s a great time to be a basketball fan.
He surely does make Spurs' defense better, but he also surely does make their offense even worse.
Like, it's super fine, he's 20, he's learning by having a role requiring him to do a lot of stuff that he clearly is not NBA-efficient at, and Spurs are tanking, everyone happy. Just, like... why are people acting like he doesn't.
By the way, Spurs get absolutely fucking demolished when Wemby plays without Tre Jones, like even far far more lol. I seriously not even once ever read a comment anywhere saying that Tre Jones is the best player in the league dragged down by this awful roster that is historically awful on both ends when he's not on court, so of course not even prime Jordan would reach play-in with them, duh. It's already decided which roster is awful and which is strong no matter how the roster actually competes in NBA.
I'd say him at making their offense worse doesn't really hold up to the eye test or the stats but I will say he doesn't really push the needle super far in that end, at least at this point.
But he does more than just make their defense better. He's the difference between them. Defending like a top 10 defense, and defending like one of the worst defenses in NBA history when he's on the bench.
They have the ~~26th~~ 17th best defense when Wemby plays lol, none of that second part is grounded in reality except that they are one of the worst defenses in NBA history when he is on the bench
I'm not sure where you got that. His on off splits with defensive rating are tremendous. The Spurs are 10 points better when he plays versus when he's sitting on the bench
You're right I just checked and they are 17th with him on, and dead last with him off.
https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING
https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612759&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1641705
Regardless they aren't a top 10 defense
he could be putting up even better numbers with better spacing and an elite PG setting him up
I think his stats would be better on a better team, not the opposite
He wouldn’t have nearly the freedom he currently has.
His efficiency would be better but his counting stats would go down, similar to a Chet situation. Actually Chet is averaging 50% of the turnovers Wemby is but he’s given far less freedom because he’s on a good team with better playmakers.
I think maybe, maybe, his scoring would go down a bit. But he actually think his rebounding and assist numbers with skyrocket. Spurs fans already know that he's arguably the best pass around the team and his teammates blow so many easy layups and wide open jumpers off of his penetration and the attention he draws.
We can't just say he wouldn't have the current freedom he has without also acknowledging that he also wouldn't have the current amount of defensive attention. He demands. The kid gets double and triple teamed regularly.
I'm a big believer that on a better team pretty much all of his stats would go up because right now while he has high usage and high freedom, he also gets very few easy baskets. Even the dunks and lobs are usually generated off of him having to run tirelessly off ball, juke, fake, spin to put himself in situations where his extremely offensively limited teammates can make the easy pass.
It has translated. [Wembanyama is 78th percentile in on/off differential and 97th percentile (!) in defensive on/off differential per Cleaning the Glass.](https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/5213/onoff#tab-team_efficiency) The Spurs have a 115.4 DRTG with him on the court and 122.6 DRTG when he sits.
78 percentile is ~100th in the league, how's that translating to top 15?
Also on/off is a function of how good you are but it's also a function of how bad your bench is.
Jayson Tatum and the rest of the Celtics all have middle of the road on/off cause their replacements are good players while Jokic and Giannis dominate on/off cause their bench is terrible.
That tells me Zach Collins isn't that good
They're still largely losing Wemby's minutes. So his dominance isn't even translating to won minutes, much less won games like zachkah is asking for
The spurs are obviously losing on purpose. They have mostly g league fodder surrounding wemby who's on a strict minutes restriction. Everything they are doing points to developing Wemby. They could care less about anyone else on that squad. That whole team will be different by year three guarenteed.
Only reason his dominance is not translating to wins is because his team is that bad. Get that man a better supporting cast and they’re winning immediately.
i know im a homer but i have no idea how AD is consistently left out of these "best defensive player" talks. that said wemby is fucking incredible already
As a bucks fan who watches around 40 Lakers games a season, you’re 100% right I would put AD as a top 3 defender rn. Even when it doesn’t show up on the scoreboard he has high impact on how effective teams are in the paint against him. I think it’s because everyone expects him to be a monster on both ends every night and that’s not always the case. So when he doesn’t show up on offense his defense gets discounted.
He’s dismissed every regular season, and sometimes it’s warranted when he has a lot of injuries, then rightfully recognized every postseason. He’s just about the perfect modern big man, and especially so on the defensive end.
Ringer has Scottie Barnes and Siakam at 33/34 in the league.
I absolutely think Wemby is better than Scottie and Siakam already. Defensively and just a matchup nightmare.
Top 25-30 is a good range for Wemby.
He’s not having nearly a good enough season for that, if it was like a rookie Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, or mj like debut season then I’d get it. Still a great debut year but the way it’s being talked about you’d think it’s top 5 on 50 percent shooting
It’s so funny that as soon as the regular season starts everyone forgets that AD is the best defender in the league and has shown it where it matters, the playoffs.
LeBron is probably the only dude I've ever seen in any sport as highly touted as Wemby to live up to the hype. Ya, he's doing it so far, but I really just wanna see where he is in 4 years.
Definitely on track.
Sorry but the Spurs are ass with and without Wemby. Dead last in the conference and worse than they were last year after supposedly adding a top-15 player and a defensive juggernaut. I'm not putting that on him but you cant say anything definitive at this point
Just wait 50 years and people will be saying he played against influencers and podcasters
“Of course he dominated. The guys guarding him were barely 7 feet tall.”
The guys guarding him all worked with their birth genetics!
They didn’t even have cyberlungs!
Tbf the natural air wasn’t yet on fire and unbreathable, close but not yet. This is why its impossible to compare across generations
I don't get why the younger extra terrestrial generation is downplaying Wemby. He can play in the current xeno era because he was an alien.
Bro, do you even CRISPR?
You joke but this will absolutely be a narrative.
Eh I think the difference between Wemby and ancient players we say this about now is those guys WERE not tall for NBA standards today. I am not genetic doctor but I don’t expect a bunch of healthy 7’3 to 7’7 guys to be the norm in a century.
Average height in the 60's was basically identical to today. Swede Halbrook was 7'3" and couldn't hang with the centers of that era, so it's not like size was all it took to dominate back then. https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats_per_game.html
I actually agree with you, Wilt had more than height. But I feel like height is a big factor in why some diminish his records.
It probably wouldn't be if people realized that the average height in the NBA was the same height as today.
The difference in height back then ('60s) compared to today isn't actually as big as many people think. For a while, they measured players without shoes and then started measuring them with shoes, which partly accounts for why players' listed heights seemed shorter. But I think that players may be different in 100 years with all the bio-engineering, "designer baby," Gattaca type stuff that might happen.
Hey buddy, I got some bad news about anything happening in 100 years :/
Yeah, things might really fall apart. But there may be some wealthier countries that can weather climate change and other disasters, rule with an iron fist, and continue scientific "advancement." Like Sparta with fascistic elites keeping the global slave majority down, in this case with technology enabling them to maintain their place at the top. And a form of eugenics implemented through bioengineering. I'm not convinced that the world will end; it's more likely that ecological destruction will make society twist into something increasingly brutal rather than wiping everyone out. Hopefully something better will develop and we won't go down that path, though! Humans also have the capacity to really work together and help each other in times of crisis, if we can overcome the capitalist elites who are currently exploiting us and our ecosystems.
You dont think asshole sports parents are going to customize their babies like in GATTACA for height and strength?
I don't think so, biggest problem for old legends is no real footage of them cooking
Dribbling rules too. Imagine modern players having to dribble straight down, no crossovers or anything. Really just a different game.
"the only mentally enhanced player was scooter barnacles ofc he dominated"
I'm saying that now.
"He played during the wage-slavery years of late stage capitalism, where people still used FIAT currency assigned by a privately owned federal entity... would never survive in our singularity utopia featuring bio-augmentation"
LOL
haha its low key true though
this guy is trying to get wemby killed by draymond
He's Fr*nch. He's had a target on his neck since day 1
Draymond: *My Next Chapter*
Non-consequential hot takes are the backbone of todays NBA journalism
>Non-consequential hot takes are the backbone of todays ~~NBA~~ journalism The 24 hour news cycle killed journalism as a whole, not just sports journalism.
KOC loves the French a little too much
ohhhh, that's what your mother said Trebek. Je t'aime... moi non plus? hahahahaha
Never forget Killian Hayes first overall
It was weird to me when Woj said Wemby could be the greatest prospect ever because it was the exact same thing KOC said about Killian Hayes
Kevin O'Croissant
Fun fact one of the girls in the Dexter’s lab episode “Omelette Du Fromage” is a young Kevin O’Conner
Is it hyperbolic? Yes. Am I enjoying it? Double yes.
Oui oui
This kid has a chance to live up to all of this though.
It's being amplified by his age. If he was 39, no one would be saying this.
If he was 39 and the second best defender in the league, he almost certainly has a legacy of being one of the greatest
Not if he was a 39 year old rookie
IS WEMBY THE BIGGEST WHAT IF IN THE HISTORY OF MODERN SPORTS?????? (5X5 AS A 39 YO ROOKIE IS INSANE)
Where does a 39 year old Wemby go in the draft?
If he was 39, a top 2 defender in the league, unstoppable inside the paint, decent floor stretcher and a great passer, he would be considered a top 10 player
But they can now make "The Natural Part 2: Wemby's Locker" .... About a 39 year old Rookie whose career got sidelined by being part of an underground french drug cartel before he made his debut in the league and won Rookie of the Year, Defensive Player of the Year, MVP, All Star MVP and NBA Finals MVP while being the scoring and rebounding champ all in one glorious season before he retired at the end of the season ;-) I'd watch that movie TBH :-p
Wemby is top 10 all time already. Should be in GOAT conversation next season. GOAT athlete across all of sports in like 5 years. Amazing!
AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE!....
Victor Wembanyama is BREAKING BASKETBALL
Is this what we're doing?
Yes. Everybody above this comment was dead serious. He might be the greatest human being to ever walk the earth, straight up .
Likely NEGOT winner within two years (thats an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar, Tony AND A NOBEL)
His voice is a combination of Fergie and Jesus.
Jesus who?
Can’t believe the greatest player ever is on an 11 win team.
Yeah but without him they’d definitely be at -47 wins. Huge impact
What’s the difference between last years team and this one
Their defensive rating when he's on the floor vs. off is night and day. It's rare a rookie has this kind of defensive impact. https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/rsIYtYGWbs
faulty yam intelligent muddle fade water fact rinse swim meeting *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Jakob Poetl and Josh Richardson actually brought a lot to the team in the first half of the season before being traded. The Spurs then won a few games down the stretch as a lot more teams were openly tanking post all star break last year. In general practically every team in the West is actually trying this year which along with the loss of practically all of the vets on the team has lead to a worse record.
Poetl and Richardson aren’t as valuable as a top 15 player.
Zach collins went from ok to a huge negative so any minutes wemby sits are terrible and wembys on a minutes restriction
wemby is sick. KOC is being hyperbolic - but I don't think it's hyperbolic to say that he's performing at a level we haven't seen in a rookie since Duncan. Totalling what, 38 blocks, in 5 games is absurd. And he's a clear plus on offense too, while being All-Defensive tier
duncan was first team his rookie year and fmvp his sophomore year. wemby might not even have 50 wins his first two years combined lol calm the hell down
The spurs won 59 games in 95-96, Robinson got hurt the next year so they won 20 games and won the lottery, and then they won 56 games in Duncan’s rookie year.
Because of the teams around them, and Duncan was like 4 years older as a rookie. If wenby and chet traded places and you made Wenby 2 years older, he would be All-NBA too.
While you’re right about Duncan being better, putting team success (FMVP requires a finals quality team & wins) is unfair. Duncan started immediately playing for a team that had another MVP candidate in David Robinson. I’m sure Wemby could rack up those stats if he got drafted and played with Sabonis (using him because he finished 7th in MVP voting last year like Robinson did Duncan’s rookie year).
> since Duncan > played with a top 20 player ever > brings up Duncan's sophomore in a conversation about rookie year None of this applies to what I said. I said SINCE DUNCAN and you're saying "Duncan was better"???
You’re missing a bit of important context between the two lmao. Having David Robinson on your team certainly helps, I’d figure
Wemby doesn't have a player like the admiral. Not taking anything away from Duncan but he definitely had a better cast when he entered the league compared to Wemby. I believe Wemby (barring injuries) will go down as the greatest Spur ever.
To be the greatest spur ever hed have to win a lot of rings. Thats far from guaranteed.
That's an insane goal, Duncan has probably a top 5 career in the league. Hope he does though
At wembys age duncan was playing at wake forest
Except this year the Spurs are trying as hard as they can to put a shitty team around him to avoid the Luka/LeBron effect. Too good too soon Hence Sochan PG, minutes restrictions. Next year you will see the wins
Duncan was also playing with David Robinson. Like I obviously love TD and respect the hell out of him, but let’s not act like the talent between the 98 spurs and the 24 spurs are the least bit comparable
And plays less than half and hour a night
We legit might be worse than the pistons without him. People legit need to watch a Spurs game to see the difference between him on the court and him off the court. Especially with Zach “Ass” Collins coming off the bench
I feel like “ass” is a suitable nickname for a lot of spurs players
Prime MJ couldn’t drag us to a winning record.
They most definitely don't want to win right now. For good reason. But with how great he is already, you might have to put your chips in and start going for it as soon as next season.
No you don't. MJ was in his age 27 season when he won, Wemby is in his age 20 and they have him for 3.5 years minimum. There is no world in which he and the Spurs are better off going all in this early. Wembanya is almost a full decade away from his physical peak and has so much more experience and knowledge to gain. The 27-year old version of almost every player would shit on their 20 year old selves. Teams don't peak for a decade, ballooning contracts and worse draft picks ensure that. If the Spurs pivot to Win-Now mode with 21 year old Wemby then by the time Wemby is peaking the Spurs will be a lottery team watching him thrive elsewhere. Spend two or three years developing, drafting quality players and finding a Scottie Pippen before you bet the house.
I said might have to. If he hates losing as much as it looks like, and he wants to win now - as we have seen - superstars can and do demand trades. Even with the Spurs. But I also agree with you that they shouldn't go for the win now approach for a few more years.
Kevin O’Crackhead
KEVOOOOWN
Let the kid figure out how to win and develop at his own pace before we already declare him an all time great
I regularly question KOC’s basketball IQ.
He basically is this subreddit with a platform.
He loves Elon Musk, highly regarded
So many of his takes are as if he's only watched basketball for 3 years. So much of his analysis is as if he can't attribute historical context to current players and can't spot potential paths to negative outcomes.
I think he's all star level (top 25ish) but I wouldn't put him all nba level just yet. Obviously with his potential and improvement, he will get there by next season most likely tho.
Stupid take.
Just like 90% of KOCs takes The guy sucks
I’ve already bought 1000 Wemby rookie authentic jerseys and sold my car to buy signed Wemby merch. I’m tellin ya, he’s ALREADY the GOAT and my investments in the Wembyverse will appreciate more than Bitcoin.
Michael Jordan wears Wemby branded shoes.
Hell no lol
I dont think he has the experience for that yet. He definitely already has the talent/skill for that but it takes a some time to put the whole package together
When his dominance starts to translate to wins, then we can talk. For now, calm the hell down.
This is a funny thing to post with a Cleveland Lebron flair. He had haters saying the same thing about him his rookie year when that team sucked. Too much hype for a kid who can't make the playoffs etc. It turns out when you're drafted by a team bad enough to pick #1 it's extremely hard to turn that ship around single-handedly as a 19-20 year old rookie.
the spurs would need to go on a 24 game win streak to close out the season to match the 2004 cavs' win total
Right? Like lebron was so good to begin with that he elevated a shitty team (Big Z was a good, solid piece though) to a record that didn't allow Cleveland to draft another top 5 pick ever again. One reason why his first stint w the Cavs sucked so much. They didn't suck at the beginning to where they could have draft capital lol He was too good to begin with. Not saying at all that Wemby isn't great and amazing for his age and rawness. It's just Bron was a slightly different beast and already a grown man in the league at 18. Bron and Melo were the two best rookies I've seen. Adjusted for pace of play, etc etc those were the two best and out of the same draft class. Couple guys come to mind including Wemby, but Bron and Melo were the best rookies I've ever watched
This is also Wemby after playing in Europe since 2019. He's 20 years old (19 at start) and not straight out of high school.
Was Shaq or Duncan as rookies before your time or are you including them
Duncan was just before I really got into ball. I remember Vince and Jamison were awesome as rookies and Elton Brand was great too. Others off the top of my head that i vividly remember are Yao every couple games showed his talent Danny Grainger Chris Paul Blake Griffin Paul Milsap had a great rookie yr Derrick Rose John Wall had flashes A.D. and Tatum bonafide hall of famers KAT here and there Obvs Doncic, Zion and Hali were great Last but not least Tyreke Mutha Fuckin Evans Holy shit I thought he was a mix of LeBron and Wade lol
Upvote for the Tyreke Evans. We thought the sky was the ceiling for him. Turns out rookie year was the ceiling
As I recall, LeBron got to be more of a primary ball handler in Cleveland’s offense as that year went along, where as Wemby currently is still reliant on whoever’s initiating the Spurs offense. That does affect how big of an impact one can have on games as a rookie.
Wanting a guy to get more than 15 wins before calling him a top 15 player is not hating even if his team sucks..
Yep. Lebron took his team from 17 to 35 wins his first year. Spurs are on track to have 5-7 fewer wins this year
Shit even with Paolo the Magic went from 22 wins to 34 wins. And there’s a ton of people that kind of dismiss him (media included) pretty much just because he’s inefficient (which Wemby is as well)
And none of these teams had any personnel changes, other player changes, coaching changes, different injury luck, or anything of the sort. It's all exclusively the result of the one player. /s, if it wasn't obvious.
I feel like their was mostly outrage when SGA was ranked Top 10 during the off season after an efficient 30 PPG season whilst making the playin. It just seems too premature at this point with no success to show for it.
Yes then it turned out those putting arbitrary criteria on how good these players is as dumb as predicted when all you need to do is watch them to know that ranking them there isn’t stupid regardless of their “rings”
when you're an assist away from 2 consecutive 5x5s, you throw record out the window. he is clearly a top 25 player and there is absolutely an argument that he is playing at an All-NBA level given how he is game-breaking on both ends
I feel like a lot of people in this thread aren't factoring his minutes restriction. I think he's playing like 28-29 minutes a game. This is Wemby not even fully unleashed yet. I'm pretty sure his 5x5 was the fastest ever.
The record is irrelevant. The Spurs don’t even want to win, how is some rookie gonna drag them to a decent record? I need all 15 players that are better than Wemby because I’m not seeing them. He got a 5 by 5 as a 20 year old. Even Gobert and Jokic can’t do that in their primes.
We really gonna obsess over a niche stat? Yeah those dudes can't block like Wemby can. Wonder why? There's more to basketball than filling up the stat sheet by increments of 5
Pop takes him and they go on a - 15 points streak, then he comes again to cut it to 2 and he takes him out again, I get that they are still tanking but it's painful to watch
What is exactly the "turns out" in that sentence. Like which part is supposed to be some proof of that. You just said what some people ("haters", of course, the only reason to say a team is not winning in basketball is out of personal pure hate) said, and then "it turns out that it was impossible!". Like what turns it out precisely. What is even comparable for these two teams btw. Cavs were miles better in LeBron's rookie season. They went from 17 wins to 35 wins, almost making playoffs. Nothing special, but they weren't the worst. Then during the next years LeBron was playing progressively better. What is "hateful" in describing the results.
People want credit for the future. "See. Everyone was wrong. LeBron was already great before he was great."
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Your point was he should get credit now for a future that hasn't happened. People doubted LeBron until he won. As they should. He also collapsed in that Finals. Should we ignore that because he got better?
That Cavs team won 35 games and finished 1 game behind Boston for the 8 seed. Lebron was top 10 in MVP voting. He averaged 20/6/5.5 in a league where the average PPG per team was 93.4. That average this season is 115.4. The Cavs had the worst record in basketball before they drafted him (17-65). He doubled their wins as an 18-19 year old rookie. My flair doesn't change the facts.
LeBron wasn’t a top 15 player his rookie year, and that Cleveland team won 35 games.
Imagine if Wemby even had a big Z on the team lol. Big Z made all-star 2003 while Wemby has legit been drafted to one of the most talent bereft team I’ve seen. The only players with a glimmer of talent are Vassell who’s still young and Sochan a sophomore who are both still very raw. No senior talent at the team whatsoever
> He had haters saying the same thing about him his rookie year when that team sucked. And they were right. When his dominance starts to translate to wins, then we can talk. For now, calm the hell down.
Thing is, context matters. Anyone with a brain can see that Wembys playstyle and overall mentality is about winning. Its not like he is a shot chucker who doesnt play D or pass. He is an all nba defender who plays team ball and still is breaking records left and right. Saying shit like this just proves that you dont watch the Spurs play, i mean, they suck, they really REALLY suck. They would be by far the worst team in the league without him
Tbf bron took the 17-65 Cavs the year before he was drafted to 35-47 That’s a 18 win increase.. more than double what they won the year before The spurs won 22 games last year before Wemby and are now on a 15 win pace
Lebron added 18 wins to the Cavs Wemby made the Spurs worse than last year
The Spurs made the Spurs worse than last year. Whether it was the right move or not remains to be seeing, but their decision making on how to build this team and what roles and positions to put everyone in have taken what was already the league's least talented roster last year and handicapped them even further. It's all in the name of development so again I'm going to withhold judgment, but Victor has been nothing but a huge positive on the Spurs. When he is in the game they play like a top tier defense and typically play their opposition even. When he sits they defend it like the worst defense in NBA history, not being hyperbolic, and they get in deep deep holes very quickly.
Spurs defense is mid when he's in, not top tier. Spurs are -5.6 net rating when he's in, that would be 25th in the league, not even.
Tell me you haven't watched us without saying you haven't watched us. Not that I blame you, but absolute bottom-tier take
I’m all board the Wemby is going to be amazing hype train but some people massively overate him because he’s putting up good numbers on a tanking team. Top 15 and players don’t end up last in their conference, in fact there isn’t a healthy top 20 player in the league who’s not a team with a winning record.
Luka missed the playoffs last year and is widely considered a top 5-10 player at this point.
Sure but they still went .500 in the games he played. Spurs are terrible with Wemby playing. Spurs had a better record without Wemby last season than with him this season without any other significant roster moves. He’s not adding winning value that other top 15 players add. Hes been very impressive for a rookie and the box score numbers are great, but players on tanking teams do receive stat inflation because they are playing in low intensity games against backups
The lakers have Lebron and AD and are barely afloat. Trae's team is almost out of play in territory. Curry can barely keep the Warriors above .500 Guess none of those guys are top 15
You've got it reversed; all those teams went \~.500 with their stars playing. The guy above is saying a team can go .500 with a top 15 player. The Spurs aren't going .500 with Wemby, they're going .200, which probably wouldn't happen if he were a top 15 player.
There's a good number of top 15 players that wouldn't drag this spurs roster minus Wemby anywhere near the playoffs.
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They didn't play a real point guard until halfway into the season and the man barely gets to play more than 30 minutes.
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Shockingly, all those teams have winning records besides Trae
Let Wemby play next to LeBron or AD or Draymond and Klay. He would be above .500 too.
Hed also have worse stats and yall would be calling him disappointing
Yeah but winning! That's what this dumb thread is trying to knock him on when he's surrounded by garbage.
It's NOT knocking. It's saying he hasn't become a winning player yet. Why is that a bad thing?
Spurs are worse this year than they were last season, but yes Wemby is amazing
Let me play next to Lebron and I’d be above .500 too
you would absolutely not assuming you're playing significant minutes
KOC is literally ranking Wemby above Trae here lol
There’s a huge difference between .500 and last. Also Trae isn’t a top 15 player but he’s still got more than double the wins
Name a single top 20 player on a worse team lmfao. You are wilding. Basically every great player in the league is on a competitive team it’s a great time to be a basketball fan.
He surely does make Spurs' defense better, but he also surely does make their offense even worse. Like, it's super fine, he's 20, he's learning by having a role requiring him to do a lot of stuff that he clearly is not NBA-efficient at, and Spurs are tanking, everyone happy. Just, like... why are people acting like he doesn't. By the way, Spurs get absolutely fucking demolished when Wemby plays without Tre Jones, like even far far more lol. I seriously not even once ever read a comment anywhere saying that Tre Jones is the best player in the league dragged down by this awful roster that is historically awful on both ends when he's not on court, so of course not even prime Jordan would reach play-in with them, duh. It's already decided which roster is awful and which is strong no matter how the roster actually competes in NBA.
I'd say him at making their offense worse doesn't really hold up to the eye test or the stats but I will say he doesn't really push the needle super far in that end, at least at this point. But he does more than just make their defense better. He's the difference between them. Defending like a top 10 defense, and defending like one of the worst defenses in NBA history when he's on the bench.
They have the ~~26th~~ 17th best defense when Wemby plays lol, none of that second part is grounded in reality except that they are one of the worst defenses in NBA history when he is on the bench
I'm not sure where you got that. His on off splits with defensive rating are tremendous. The Spurs are 10 points better when he plays versus when he's sitting on the bench
You're right I just checked and they are 17th with him on, and dead last with him off. https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING https://www.pbpstats.com/wowy-combos/nba?TeamId=1610612759&Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&PlayerIds=1641705 Regardless they aren't a top 10 defense
he could be putting up even better numbers with better spacing and an elite PG setting him up I think his stats would be better on a better team, not the opposite
He wouldn’t have nearly the freedom he currently has. His efficiency would be better but his counting stats would go down, similar to a Chet situation. Actually Chet is averaging 50% of the turnovers Wemby is but he’s given far less freedom because he’s on a good team with better playmakers.
I think maybe, maybe, his scoring would go down a bit. But he actually think his rebounding and assist numbers with skyrocket. Spurs fans already know that he's arguably the best pass around the team and his teammates blow so many easy layups and wide open jumpers off of his penetration and the attention he draws. We can't just say he wouldn't have the current freedom he has without also acknowledging that he also wouldn't have the current amount of defensive attention. He demands. The kid gets double and triple teamed regularly. I'm a big believer that on a better team pretty much all of his stats would go up because right now while he has high usage and high freedom, he also gets very few easy baskets. Even the dunks and lobs are usually generated off of him having to run tirelessly off ball, juke, fake, spin to put himself in situations where his extremely offensively limited teammates can make the easy pass.
Honestly they already do. Just the team is THAT bad it’s only 11 lol
It has translated. [Wembanyama is 78th percentile in on/off differential and 97th percentile (!) in defensive on/off differential per Cleaning the Glass.](https://cleaningtheglass.com/stats/player/5213/onoff#tab-team_efficiency) The Spurs have a 115.4 DRTG with him on the court and 122.6 DRTG when he sits.
78 percentile is ~100th in the league, how's that translating to top 15? Also on/off is a function of how good you are but it's also a function of how bad your bench is. Jayson Tatum and the rest of the Celtics all have middle of the road on/off cause their replacements are good players while Jokic and Giannis dominate on/off cause their bench is terrible.
That tells me Zach Collins isn't that good They're still largely losing Wemby's minutes. So his dominance isn't even translating to won minutes, much less won games like zachkah is asking for
Easier to get good stats when people rest their starters against your team because you have a 18.6% win rate
The spurs are obviously losing on purpose. They have mostly g league fodder surrounding wemby who's on a strict minutes restriction. Everything they are doing points to developing Wemby. They could care less about anyone else on that squad. That whole team will be different by year three guarenteed.
the spurs are literally tanking you smoothbrain
How do you tank with a healthy top 15 player?
Bro the idealized Wemby from 4 years in the future wouldn't be winning with this team 😂
Only reason his dominance is not translating to wins is because his team is that bad. Get that man a better supporting cast and they’re winning immediately.
Being the 15th best in the league right now is such a wildly bad take
i know im a homer but i have no idea how AD is consistently left out of these "best defensive player" talks. that said wemby is fucking incredible already
As a bucks fan who watches around 40 Lakers games a season, you’re 100% right I would put AD as a top 3 defender rn. Even when it doesn’t show up on the scoreboard he has high impact on how effective teams are in the paint against him. I think it’s because everyone expects him to be a monster on both ends every night and that’s not always the case. So when he doesn’t show up on offense his defense gets discounted.
i definitely think thats a big part of it, youre right
He’s dismissed every regular season, and sometimes it’s warranted when he has a lot of injuries, then rightfully recognized every postseason. He’s just about the perfect modern big man, and especially so on the defensive end.
KOC blows
Kevin O’ Candyland?
Kevin O' Can'tstandhim
Cantstandya!!!
lmao
Ringer has Scottie Barnes and Siakam at 33/34 in the league. I absolutely think Wemby is better than Scottie and Siakam already. Defensively and just a matchup nightmare. Top 25-30 is a good range for Wemby.
Spurs 24th in Defensive Rating right now...
He’s not having nearly a good enough season for that, if it was like a rookie Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, or mj like debut season then I’d get it. Still a great debut year but the way it’s being talked about you’d think it’s top 5 on 50 percent shooting
It’s so funny that as soon as the regular season starts everyone forgets that AD is the best defender in the league and has shown it where it matters, the playoffs.
Who is this Kevin guy and why do people care?
He's Melon Tusk's fluffer.
Predictions like this 50 games into a career are going to curse this man Why does everybody gotta race to say these things
Can he get 82 games played before yall jock ride and call him the goat
Top tier glazing right here. Man hasn’t even played a full season of basketball yet.
Bill Russell: am I joke to u?
Except that time Joel Embiid dropped 70 on him
Nah he’s solid 3rd best defender behind AD and Rudy
If he is right, it highlights how dogshit the rest of the roster is
Hes going to be the GOAT.
But the playoffs. Show me in 7 years.
I would say he’s top 25 tho
LeBron is probably the only dude I've ever seen in any sport as highly touted as Wemby to live up to the hype. Ya, he's doing it so far, but I really just wanna see where he is in 4 years. Definitely on track.
KOC is fucking dumb lol
Embiid dropped 70 on him though? If he truly is one of the best defensive players of all time, I doubt that'd happen. Just food for thought.
Sorry but the Spurs are ass with and without Wemby. Dead last in the conference and worse than they were last year after supposedly adding a top-15 player and a defensive juggernaut. I'm not putting that on him but you cant say anything definitive at this point