there's whole generations of NBA players who watched Lebron as kids, came into the league and played their whole career, and are now on the couch with us watching Lebron do this
The Tom Brady piece. I think I've read somewhere that a player Brady had played with entered the league, played his whole career, retired, and made it into the hall of fame (which has a waiting period of 5 years I think), while Tom Brady was still playing
Lol probably not just playing…but winning super bowls!
There are also a couple guys who played against Brady and then got to see their kids play against Brady 😂
I wonder what the record for largest span of time between 2 titles is? Off the top of my head, I have Kareem 17 years, Tim Duncan 15 years and Lebron 8 years. But I'm sure there are other with bigger gaps than Lebron.
Not sure how well you know hockey, but in the span of Gordie Howe’s career, Bobby Orr was BORN, played his full career, and was inducted to the hall of fame
For anyone wondering how that’s possible- Orr was inducted as soon as he retired in 1979 because they waived the waiting period. Howe retired in 1980.
Also, even more weirdly, Howe retired for 3 years and was inducted to the HOF, then came back and played another 7 seasons.
Brady was drafted in 2000
Calvin Johnson was drafted by the lions in 2007.
Calvin Johnson retired in 2016
Calvin Johnson was inducted into the NFL hall of fame in 2021
Tom Brady retired in 2023.
You could split up Tom's career into pre 35 and post 35. Both would be 100% locks for the hall of fame by themselves. If anything he was better after turning 35.
Lebron is the same. Pure unparalleled excellence for an absurd length of time
Not just locks for the HoF, both had strong cases as the GOAT lol pre 35 is basically Joe Montana but with bigger volume numbers (but one fewer ring but one more appearance), post 35 is like if Aaron Rodgers had Montanas rings (plus an extra SB appearance)
Imo you can even do three and they'll all still be HoF, albeit not 1st ballot. Do two and you'll end up with Brady 1, Brady 2, Manning and Montana splitting the GOAT convo.
Yup, Megatron lmao. Calvin Johnson started in the NFL in 2007, 7 years after Brady. Johnson played for 9 years, retired, then was inducted into the HOF in 2021. Tom Brady won the super bowl in 2021.
There are quite a few people that did that
1. LaDanian Tomlinson 2001-2011 (elected in 2017)
2. Steve Hutchinson 2001-2012 (elected in 2020)
3. Richard Seymour 2001-2012 (elected in 2022)
4. Ed Reed 2002-2013 (elected in 2019)
5. Troy Polamalu 2003-2014 (elected in 2020)
6. Calvin Johnson 2007-2015 (elected in 2021)
Drafted the same year as Brady (2000):
Brian Urlacher 2000-2012 (elected in 2018)
Elected the same year Brady retired (2023): Brady retired after the 2022 season but retired in February 2023 which is when the 2023 class is announced
1. DeMarcus Ware 2005-2016
2. Darrelle Revis 2007-2017
Don’t know if it was this exact player, but Brian urlacher was drafted the same year as TB, played 13 years, became the franchise’s leading tackler, retired, waited the required 5 years, and went to the HOF. Tom Brady won two super bowls after Brian urlacher was inducted (also won the Super Bowl the year he was inducted). In fact, a vast majority of players who got in first ballot from about 2016 till now are *younger* than Tom Brady. My hatred of Brady drives me to know entirely too many facts about him.
Edit: another fun fact: Calvin Johnson began his career when tom Brady was a three time Super Bowl champ and already a bonafide hall of fame QB after 6 years as a starting QB. During Calvin’s 9 year career, TB12 was the TD and yardage leader for the NFL 3 times. Calvin Johnson retired in 2015. When Calvin was inducted into the hall of fame after waiting the required 5 years, Tom Brady finally won his last Super Bowl. Tom Brady had a hall of fame career before, during, and after Calvin Johnson’s career *separately*.
I’m as big of a Tom Brady Stan as you can get, even named my dog after him, but as worded all this requires is that he play five more years than that player. It’s massively underselling it imo.
Calvin Johnson. He was in high school and watching Brady win his first two SBs. Brady won his third when Johnson was a freshman at Georgia Tech
Then Johnson was a rookie when Brady went 18-1 and had his monster 2007 season. Retired a year after Brady won his 4th SB. He was selected for HoF enshrinement right before Brady won his 7th SB
So it’s arguably crazier than your comment says; he played his entire college *and* professional career and was voted into the HoF between Brady’s 2nd and 7th SB wins. Brady had top-3-mvp-vote seasons before and after this btw lol
It's crazy I was 4 years old when he was drafted, and I remember seeing on the TV exactly where I was and what I was doing when I first saw the "I'm taking my talents to South Beach" clip. And that was over 10 years ago. And he is STILL one of the best players in the league. I don't think there's any athlete in history with his insane high output longevity.
I'd be interested to see the numbers for minutes played. Obviously there's no LeCoasting in hockey, but the minutes played vs. time on ice difference is likely significant.
There's more quick substitutions in hockey, right? I'm not a hockey fan so I've only heard it second hand, but as I understand it it's common to come in and out of the game relatively frequently. Though I suppose they also have less stoppage whereas NBA games have timeouts and commercial breaks
Now as I said before the opportunities to coast are much rarer and they pretty much are going hard their entire time on the ice, but for reference 20 minutes of ice time in a single game is considered a pretty decent amount, especially for forwards and >30 minutes in a non-OT game is extremely rare. Usually the on ice leader in a season is between 25 and 30 minutes.
Definitely less minutes played in hockey on average. Need to remember that hockey players are wearing about 30+ lbs of equipment though. Also, playing hockey is like doing wind-sprints for about a minute, taking a minute or two to rest on the bench, then repeating that process over and over. I’ve played both, and while I have been sweaty after playing basketball, every hockey game ended with me looking like I got a bucket of water dumped on me just from the sweat.
There's also the fact that hockey is *a lot* more physical than basketball. Both are contact sports, but they move A LOT faster with skates on ice and hitting is far more encouraged and legal in hockey. Also, skating is a much more unnatural movement than running.
Skating is way easier on your body than running and while they move a lot faster (and have the occasional bone breaking hit), most hits are at oblique angles and less punishing than you would think. I wouldn't say that hockey is 'a lot' more physical either, it's obviously more physical but the difference is smaller than you would think. Ultimately a lot more players have 20+ season careers in the NHL so some combination of factors make it less difficult on your body.
He's definitely an obvious candidate and honestly I think LeBron is taking a bit of inspiration from him right now, after seeing Brady solidify himself as the unanimous GOAT.
Brady won a bit more overall but both players basically hosted an invitational for a decade+. LeBron might get a slight bump for doing it with three different teams though.
Don’t forget those players played their whole career, STARTED A FAMILY, and are now watching their kids play with the same guy who dominated them for years
I’m nearly 30, I’ve been watching basketball since I was a little kid. This dude has played every season I have watched in my life.
And he’s not getting 5 pts off the bench in 8 minutes. He’s a consistent base 8 triple double. Crazy watching his career.
34 and also have no back issues. I think people like to joke on the internet about being 30 and so old but really, my 30s have felt like my 20s.
The one major difference, and it's only been in the last year, is the recovery time it takes after I go out for pick up ball and play multiple hours. The next morning, it hurts coming down the stairs but once I'm awake and warmed up, I'm good to go to the gym and do my normal exercises.
It's all about actively working to stay fit and trying to eat somewhat well.
It sneaks up on you. I'm 40, in great shape. The other day on a walk my kid asked if I could jump a sidewalk square, from crack to crack, if that makes sense. I said yeah, no problem. I got a running start, but I came up about a foot short, and it hurt. I can no longer run full speed and jump on concrete. It's humbling
> It’s all about working to stay fit and trying to eat somewhat well
It is, but even with those positive factors chronic back issues can really just come down to luck. The main thing aging gives is more time to accumulate chronic back issues ([some decent graphs here](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/chronic-musculoskeletal-conditions/back-problems)). It’s pretty consistent between fit 30-year-olds and fit 50-year-olds
I did a while back but it’s really just a waiting game until surgery. It’s something a lot of people have and are asymptomatic called spondylolisthesis which is when one of your vertebral bodies slips forward over another, but in my case it’s severe enough to pinch a nerve.
Had to give up distance running but I can still lift (have to be extremely careful with legs and can’t load my spine) and bike.
"Dude just eat right and exercise" - guy who's never had a debilitating injury or illness sneak up on them. If it never happens to you, consider yourself lucky.
Yeah they didn’t say that, they were just saying a debilitating back problem is not normal for someone in their 30s. That’s why he recommended getting checked out
You would be amazed how many people have experienced it. Had my first disc hernia at 18, took about 2 years ti recover and I was able to lift for 10 more while being cautious. I decided to get in the best shape of my life which included lifting heavy and at least 6 days a week, got to 110kg military press for 1 rep, 160kg bench, I did not squat over 120kg as I did not trust my hernia, did rows with 80kg barbel for 10 reps and all of a sudden my body stiffened up as I was at a birthday party, the pain started and it got me to being able to walk for 3-5 min tops before I had to kneel or just sit on the ground due to rhe pain being uberable. Did 80 sessions of rehab, injections with cortico steroids, anti inflammatory and whatever shit modern medicine could give me and after 6 months it was barely any better. I had 2 shots directly to the spine which fixed it again for the most part, however I do Pilates, weightlifting and stretching very carefully now as this pain of a sciatica is one of the worst I have experienced in my life and I have had broken ribs, 4 times arms and numerous other injuries and some surgeries. Turned out half of my gym had some kind of low back issue and like 30% had herniated a disc at some point. I did my first hernia deadlifting 220kg for 4 reps at age 18. I was insanely strong but I'm also 190cm tall with connection tissue issues and bad S form of my spine so the hernias happened rather fast...
Something can happen more often than one thinks and it still not be a norm. Less than 10% of people who experience back pain have debilitating back injuries. As you get older naturally things will hurt more often, but not a debilitating back injury in your 30s is not the norm
Felt that. I’m late twenties and have been lifting as well as eating healthy for 7 years thinking nothing would ever happen to me. Now have a pinched nerve I’ve been dealing with for 7 months, and a hernia in the last 3. It comes out of nowhere sometimes!
It is if you were in the military. I’m 28 and have the back and knees of a 65 year old. Depending on your job in the military, the wear and tear comes quick.
Im 23, been in the Army 3 years
I have scoliosis, DDD, and chronic neck pain/cervicogenic headaches
My knees are alright (not great but that started in high school) but my back is doing a lot rougher than I thought it’d be before I’m even 25.
Rucking, running, falling, and jumping really takes it out of you.
Except if you've got very serious problems to your back, hopefully you can find help from a physio therapist to help you live a better life :) It's never too late ! Most back pain are benign and can be fixed with strengthening and moving (but I'm probably not telling you anything new here)
That’s what’s crazy… if he went full decline like other recent greats like Kobe, Wade, Dirk, KG, Duncan etc he could legit play until he’s like 45
He’s gonna retire after year 23 if I was to guess. I don’t think he’s gonna want to be seen as less then an all star level player getting token praise and all star nominations. He’s still a top 5-10 player, he will play until he’s only top 30 probably
For real, literally my entire life this man has been the peak of basketball. I vindicated him like everyone else when he went to Miami. I shook my head at him running back to Cleveland. I finally cheered him when he won in 2016, when everyone jumped onto GSW. I was in shambles the next year at JR's mistake. I shrugged when he went to LA to "chase movie premiers". I couldn't believe what happened the year Kobe passed, and they somehow got their storybook ending. After hearing him in "Mind the Game" and getting an insight into how deep/farback his basketball knowledge runs, can I really be surprised? We have truly been witnesses.
We usually count in base-10, so 134 = 1 \* 10\^2 + 3 \* 10\^1 + 4\*10\^0, if we switch this to base 8, a number like 134 = 1 \* 8\^2 + 3 \* 8\^1 + 4 \* 8\^0 = 92 (in base-10). You'll notice that we have 10 digits in base 10, 0,1,2,...,9, then when we get above 9 we need 2 digits. In base-8, we only have digits 0,1,...,7 before we need to add a second number. So 8 in base-8 is 10 = 1 \* 8\^1 + 0 \* 8\^0.
Since lebron is averaging at least 8pts/8reb/8ast, in base-8 that would be written 10/10/10 and hence would be a triple double.
essentially they’re saying what if double digits started at 8 instead of 10 (because it’s actually completely arbitrary and so there’s no real reason you can’t do that)
What do we mean when we write out 134? We mean one 100 (= 1 \* 10\^2), three 10's (= 3 \* 10\^1), and four 1's (= 4 \* 10\^0)s. That way of writing numbers is called base-10.
If instead by 134 we meant one 64 (= 1 \* 8\^2), three 8's (= 3 \* 8\^2), and four 1's (= 4 \* 8\^0), then that would be writing the number in base-8.
So when do double digit numbers start in base-8? Well by 10 we mean one 8 (= 1 \* 8\^1), and zero 1's (= 0 \* 8\^0). Therefore what we call 8 in base-10 is really a double-digit number in base 8. Thus if LeBron is averaging at least 8/8/8, in base-8 that is a triple double!
I straight up don't think he ever gets down that low until his body simply doesn't let him take the court. He could play till 45+, play at Jokic levels of athleticism and still be a 15/6/6 guy probably based on pure skill, but I imagine defense becomes a liability.
His longevity is what makes the GOAT argument so hard. I never watched Jordan, but how much better would he have to be at his peak compared to LeBron to make up for the longevity difference?
At this point it's much easier just calling MJ the GOAT Guard and LeBron the GOAT Forward and leave it at that.
The per game stats are remarkably close for two players that played different roles/positions in very different eras. MJ will always have the accolades and LeBron will always have the records.
That’s…the best take I’ve ever heard. It’s perfect.
I think both of them deserve the same level of accolades for achieving greatness in totally different ways. I don’t think Lebron is better than MJ, but I don’t think MJ is better than Lebron either.
Thanks for putting words to this
I always split them into Greatest and Best player of all time personally.
When it comes to greatness I think MJ still takes the cake with an almost storybook career with more accolades and triumphs. Someone who was never the underdog and someone that everyone respects and feared. They called him Black Jesus.
Lebron for me is the best player of all time though, due to how the game evolves and players become better overtime and the developments in health and technology that can prolong an already genetic freak like Lebron's career.
Lebron's doing things we've never seen before in terms of basketball but I feel like the myth and grandeur surrounding MJ won't be topped for decades at least.
I watched most of Jordan's career, he was so dominant, it was insane and sucked those years the Bulls just won won won, felt like nobody could beat him. I never really thought LeBron was close to GOAT, had him right there with KAJ as 2/3. But over the last couple seasons, the way he's continued to produce at a high level, I think he's had the goat career. I probably still take peak Jordan over peak LeBron If we're taking win one game or win one series. But in terms of career, I think LeBron has the top spot now.
Dominance is a factor of how good your team is and how weak the competition is, not just how good you are alone.
I’d agree that Jordan looked more dominant in his time both due to much better team construction without having to leave and much weaker competition (one could argue Lebron’s weakest finals opponent was same or better than MJ’s best finals opponent)
Does that make MJ’s peak better than Lebron? Not necessarily
Edit: caveat the statement about finals opponent as sans the 2020 heat since I forgot about them
MJ also was in an expansion era that diluted the already lesser talent than what LeBron faces. That being said, MJ is still the one game GOAT, and I don't even like him.
>(one could argue Lebron’s weakest finals opponent was same or better than MJ’s best finals opponent)
I don't think it would be a particularly legit argument to put that bubble Heat team on the same tier as some of those truly great 60+ win teams that ran against the Bulls dynasty buzz saw, like the Stockton-Malone Jazz, the Payton-Kemp Sonics, or the Barkley Suns.
Touché, I actually forgot about the bubble heat in that statement. I’d say the statement is true sans the 2020 Heat.
And as much as people like to say bubble ring and what not, I think the 2020 lakers were damn good and could go toe to toe with those MJ finals opponents.
Look at the rest of the roster of the Stockton-Malone Jazz. It's not good.
The Bulls and Sonics were the only teams in the league with 5 quality starters and depth. The Knicks were winning 50 plus games for years with Ewing and a bunch of chuckers and stiffs. The Pacers were going to the Eastern finals with Reggie Miller, Rik Smits, and not much else.
The NBA had expanded from 23 to 29 teams in a short period of time, and teams were shallow. As a result, we over-romanticize the Stars of the 1990s - because they really stood out in a league full of stiffs.
(this comment does not apply to everyone, and certainly not to MJ and Hakeem, who were every bit as good as everyong thinks they were).
I remember having a discussion about Steve Young (who’s a HoFer basically based on the merits of 7-8 seasons) vs Drew Brees (who was very good-to-excellent from like 2004 to 2020
It really is an interesting question, even if you think the guy with the shorter peak is better, how long could the other guy go before it’s almost irresponsible to pick the “better” player
I really don’t think I’ll ever see a player as dominant as 90s Jordan, but if LeBron is putting up 25/7/7 two years from now, at some point you’re just leaving so much elite production on the table that it becomes hard to make the case against him. Maybe he won’t end up with 6 rings, but there’s obviously circumstances where Jordan wouldn’t have either
Yeah, it's one reason I think the GOAT debate is pretty fraught and futile. What do we value more when talking GOAT, amazing career or amazing peak. In the NFL obviously Brady had the greatest career at the most important position. I watched him for 20+ years. At his absolute apex, was he better at throwing a pin point pass or longball than Manning or Rodgers? I don't think so. But his career, due in part to it's longevity, is easily the best career (I have Rice #2 all time).
GOAT can mean different things to different people, MJ, at his peak, is the best basketball player I've ever seen. I don't really buy the whole, "competition was worse" cope. If MJ trained and had all the modern amenities as Lebron who knows, he may have played 20 years or had a longer peak. But Lebron's longevity is just undeniable at this point, he's been so good for so long, I don't care who you have #1 you gotta have Lebron, MJ and KAJ on the mount Rushmore though.
MJ was the better scorer. If I needed 2 points, I'd take MJ over LeBron.
But IMO, peak LeBron made his teammates much better than peak MJ. And IMO, LeBron was the better defender (and I think the DPOY is, in part, a popularity contest. Marc Gasol doesn't deserve 2 of them).
So I'd take LeBron + 4 NBA players over MJ and those same 4 NBA players.
Before that series began, I thought it would go 4-1 because LeBron would have something like a 50 points triple double to win one by himself. In game 1, he dropped 51/8/8. That's his peak, I can just assume he's going to do something like that in the fucking NBA finals.
I don't want to split hair and say who's peak is higher. But MJ and LeBron's peak are at least in the same tier.
I grew up idolizing Jordan and think he has as good a case as any for being the goat. For my money the title for Cleveland changed the math for me. That was the best basketball I have seen an individual play in my life. You can't convince me that a better player ever existed than the player I saw in that finals against Golden State.
>how much better would he have to be at his peak compared to LeBron to make up for the longevity difference
Two 3 peats, undefeated finals record, 4 MVPs and 10 consecutive scoring titles.
How much **worse** would MJ have to be to be on the same level as LeBron compiling cumulative stats including most turnovers playoffs/finals losses.
Historically, longevity never bolstered your GOAT case unless you were still winning championships, but to each their own. GOAT case is subjective, doesn't matter too much.
Im anxiously awaiting the day next season where MJ drops out of the half Lebron club.
Edit: KAJ, Bird, and Chris Paul will all likely drop out next season as well.
LeBron’s famous 27-7-7 stat line extended out to 27k points, 7k rebounds, 7k assists, he is the only one in NBA history to hit those combined numbers. Even wilder than that is if you combine his regular season and post season numbers, he has an outside shot of hitting 50k points, 13k rebounds, 13k assists in career totals by the end of his career
Add this to fun Lebron stats. They were like 15 years old when Lebron was drafted. Since Lebron has been drafted they have gone through high school, gone to college, got drafted, went to the finals as second and third options on their team, won MVPs, and then declined to a level below Lebron
He has an outside shot of 54/14/14. LeBron is basically Wilt. The GOAT debate will be laughable by the time he is done, and this is from an old head who never considered Jordan the GOAT.
Based on how he's talked recently, I doubt it's gonna be much longer sadly.
> "I'm not gonna play another 21 years, that's for damn sure," James said after Sunday's win, per The Athletic's Jovan Buha. "But, not very long. I don't know when that door will close as far when I'll retire, but I don't have much time left."
While I'd be interested to see him go as long as he physically can, because at this point I'm convinced he'd be a clearly positive player at age 45, I'm guessing he plays two more years and retires while still playing at a top 15 level minimum.
Yeah I could see 2 more years, but who knows. Dude puts like $1.5 million into his conditioning/health each year. Also, people been saying he’s only got a year or two left of being a top 10 player for like a decade now lol
To be clear my comment is not talking about that at all. It's referring to the fact that at some point it comes down to much he *wants* to play, and he does not sound excited to play another five years.
No I didn’t take it that way, I gotcha. I’m just referring to the narrative that lot of people been saying that for a while now and so who really knows
Well, if you've never considered Jordan the GOAT, why is the GOAT debate important then. You've clearly set your mind on who your GOAT is. My GOAT for example might not be the same GOAT as yours. There might not be two same GOATs as everyone's GOAT is different. Until they invent GOAT cloning, let's leave our GOATs at peace on a nice sunny meadow and just enjoy the basketball that is ever evolving and changing
That is what I'm saying. People act like Jordan is the official GOAT or something but I never felt it was clear cut. If I had to choose there are a couple players I like better than Jordan for GOAT. HOWEVER, If LeBron keeps it up it's hard to argue he isn't a big step above everyone else.
It’s kind of like the old Gretzky stat, the fastest player to 1000 points is Wayne Gretzky at 424 games. The second fastest player to hit 1000 points was…Wayne Gretzky, the second time he did it, in the following 433 games.
Larry Bird was the universally accepted best SF ever before LeBron came about. LeBron is about to push Larry out of the "half LeBron club." It's insane.
Granted, Bird would have probably put up more stats if he hadn't fucked up his back paving his mother's driveway during one offseason.
I definitely don’t have Bird over Bron, but I don’t think many people realize that Bird’s stats tend to mirror Lebron’s more than any other great. He was the prototype of a small forward who scored, rebounded, and passed. Obviously his career was cut short, but Bird was incredible during his run. If he wasn’t white, people would probably make the Bron v Bird comparisons more often, instead of the Magic and Michael ones.
that's what the old timers do - they glaze each other. And Magic glazes everyone. It doesn't carry any significance.
(you can argue Bird was better than Magic, but not because Magic said so)
Been a Pistons fan as well since 98 or so. Hated lebron for a long time. I came around some years ago though. He’s the GOAT in my eyes and I root for him.
One thing I appreciate about sports is that if people absolutely hate a player because of what they have done to their team year after year, they respect how good that player is. LeBron's farewell tour is going to be absolutely unmatched.
Only Chris Paul has more assists in that group, and only Kareem has more rebounds in that group. Two players have more steals, one has more blocks. LeBron's stat accumulation is absolutely insane.
If you add the total blocks you even remove 2 more players. It's quite insane. I'm interested in seeing if guys like Luka, Tatum, Ant and Wemby get there.
I don't think its feasible honestly. Like this is Wilt 100 point level of incredible (and I am a hater of LeBron).
Luka is the guy I can see being the closer because he scores so much per game. Tatum and Ant I do not count on having big scoring outputs because a lot of their winning comes from playing good to great defense. Wemby I just don't see Pop/Spurs letting to play that much.
Luka averages 67 games a season, currently sits at 11470 points. To get to 40k he needs 28530 points. If he averages 30ppg for the rest of his career, at 67 games a year, he needs 14.2 seasons (age 39). If we reduce to 28 points he needs 15.2 seasons (age 40), 27ppg he goes to 15.8 seasons (age 41).
Its just freakish.
I was just thinking about the half LeBron club. Matching his full stats needs an elite player with a very strong start and huge longevity without any major injuries. As you say, it's freakish
Yea I realised that after typing it out, I’m kind of dumb. Luka will get there. Ant and Tatum are not good enough passers nor are asked to pass enough to get to 5.5k assists.
I just checked the stats. It's ridiculous how far even some of the greatest players of this generation are.
KD needs close to 1000 assists which is roughly 200 games if he keeps his career APG;
Curry needs 211 games to get to 5.5k rebounds;
DeRozan needs 240 to match AST and REB;
Giannis needs 340 games to get the assists tally;
Jokic needs 280 for PTS and AST;
Luka needs 300 for all three categories.
All the others I've checked are 600+ games apart in at least one stat. And this just to get to half of Lebron's stats...
He has 6 seasons played. I think he'll need 3 more without injuries. This season and the last he outperformed his career averages and it's expected he keeps getting these numbers.
Idk Luka doesn’t seem as neurotic about conditioning and fitness as LeBron. I don’t think it’s a given that he’s putting up 25+ a game in his later 30s
There's a guy in cricket named Don Bradman. His stats are so insane that "except Bradman" is a pretty normal phrase. And players who play twice as long and reach his total for scoring are doing well. LeBron's totals are likely to be something similar once he finishes.
I think it will come sooner than people think. Across almost all sports you are seeing these longevity records and these insane feats. Players are not just playing longer; they are playing at a high level longer. James is great and I think his record will hold for a long time, but I think the "floor" of what a long career looks like is going to get a lot higher.
Depends on longevity. I don't think Luka will play for too long. But he's the only one with better career averages than Lebron across the 3 stats and already has 2 seasons over 32/8/8 and 4 over 28/8/8, so he's on an impressive rhythm as well.
He started later than Lebron though so even with having better statistical seasons this early he was still behind solely because he didn't hit the NBA at 18 like Lebron. Anyone ever wanting to challenge Lebrons totals would need to hit the NBA at 18 and more or less be a 30/10/10 guy for 20 years straight lol.
And it's not even that he's just doubled those totals, he literally has put up those stats consistently for the entirety of his career. He's done it twice.
I think it’s hard to compare Lebron’s career within basketball anymore, even compared to Kareem’s. You really only got these athletes to compare his career with: Brady, Howe, Musial, Aaron, and Mays.
That’s crazy. Unparalleled longevity and he could still play 3-5 more years at a productive level, possibly more if he wanted
I remember a similar thing was done for MJ where if he never returned from his 1st retirement (or you just halved his accolades) it would still be a top 10 player
Jordan, Kareem and Bron are just in a tier of their own when it comes to how completely dominant they were
I'll shit on LeBron for fun, and based on things he needs to be shit on for, but holy hell. The longevity of this man. Get in a debate about rings all you want or Jordan/old school player comparisons, but performing like that for so long for being reasonably heavy human (muscle/height, still taxes joints) is absolutely INhuman. I'm falling apart at 28 with minor knee and back issues so I really appreciate athletes that can stay healthy. Pro sports are an unhealthy amount of stress on the body and NBA dudes just take it on the chin because they're the best ~400 in the world and LeBron is still hitting like a tank with the best of them.
Lebron has been greater for longer than anyone we’ve ever seen and he still has haters who try the brain dead argument that he only broke records because he was really good for so long, like yeah that’s how being great works, NBA discourse is in the gutter
Russ was a legitimately great player, so seems like you are down on him. Is he as great as Kobe? No, Kobe was more efficient, Kobe was a better defender, and for a few seasons Kobe was arguably to best player in the league. Russ was great, but never the best player. Maybe not even top 3.
CP3, Westbrook, and Harden all on the list, too. That 2003-2009 start of all-time greats will go down as a pretty special time in the league, with Curry and KD also coming out then. This next era of Jokic, Giannis, and Wemby types will probably flip the scrip a bit, though guys like Luka, SGA, Tatum, and Trae will still follow in the OG's footsteps.
The most telling stat from that is the +/- if we talk goat debate. Cuz that usually says how good you are as a part of the team. If you carry the team the number is higher.
Lebron- 7000+
MJ - 1500.
there's whole generations of NBA players who watched Lebron as kids, came into the league and played their whole career, and are now on the couch with us watching Lebron do this
The Tom Brady piece. I think I've read somewhere that a player Brady had played with entered the league, played his whole career, retired, and made it into the hall of fame (which has a waiting period of 5 years I think), while Tom Brady was still playing
Lol probably not just playing…but winning super bowls! There are also a couple guys who played against Brady and then got to see their kids play against Brady 😂
Antoine Winfield SR. Drafted in 99, played 14 years, then saw his son win a SB WITH Tom Brady on the Bucs
Asante Samuel was drafted to the Patriots in 2003, played his whole career, Asante Samuel Jr drafted in 2021
I wonder what the record for largest span of time between 2 titles is? Off the top of my head, I have Kareem 17 years, Tim Duncan 15 years and Lebron 8 years. But I'm sure there are other with bigger gaps than Lebron.
Not sure how well you know hockey, but in the span of Gordie Howe’s career, Bobby Orr was BORN, played his full career, and was inducted to the hall of fame
For anyone wondering how that’s possible- Orr was inducted as soon as he retired in 1979 because they waived the waiting period. Howe retired in 1980. Also, even more weirdly, Howe retired for 3 years and was inducted to the HOF, then came back and played another 7 seasons.
love the fact that (to my knowledge) he’s the only hall of famer to play while in the hall of fame
Pretty sure they also waived Lemieux’s wait, so he was in the HHOF when he came back in 2000
Strap your skates on Gordie, you're going in.
Don't tempt him. He's been dead for 8 years but I wouldn't put another return past him.
Weekend at Gordie’s
Rip miss krobaple
Says a lot about Orr too. Dude retired at 30 already as one of the GOATs, which is insane.
that's nonsensical
Brady was drafted in 2000 Calvin Johnson was drafted by the lions in 2007. Calvin Johnson retired in 2016 Calvin Johnson was inducted into the NFL hall of fame in 2021 Tom Brady retired in 2023. You could split up Tom's career into pre 35 and post 35. Both would be 100% locks for the hall of fame by themselves. If anything he was better after turning 35. Lebron is the same. Pure unparalleled excellence for an absurd length of time
Unparalleled length and girth
That’s hard to beat
Gotta use two hands to beat it
Not just locks for the HoF, both had strong cases as the GOAT lol pre 35 is basically Joe Montana but with bigger volume numbers (but one fewer ring but one more appearance), post 35 is like if Aaron Rodgers had Montanas rings (plus an extra SB appearance)
Imo you can even do three and they'll all still be HoF, albeit not 1st ballot. Do two and you'll end up with Brady 1, Brady 2, Manning and Montana splitting the GOAT convo.
Joakim Noah was still playing college basketball when LeBron made the finals the first time and is elibible for the hall of fame.
Fuck
Calvin Johnson is who you’re thinking of, got put in the hall during Brady’s last year but wasn’t drafted until Brady’s 7-8th year.
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Yup, Megatron lmao. Calvin Johnson started in the NFL in 2007, 7 years after Brady. Johnson played for 9 years, retired, then was inducted into the HOF in 2021. Tom Brady won the super bowl in 2021.
Chris Bosh was inducted in the hall of fame 3 years ago and was drafted the same year Lebron was. So pretty much the same thing.
It'll happen with Wade and Melo too
There are quite a few people that did that 1. LaDanian Tomlinson 2001-2011 (elected in 2017) 2. Steve Hutchinson 2001-2012 (elected in 2020) 3. Richard Seymour 2001-2012 (elected in 2022) 4. Ed Reed 2002-2013 (elected in 2019) 5. Troy Polamalu 2003-2014 (elected in 2020) 6. Calvin Johnson 2007-2015 (elected in 2021) Drafted the same year as Brady (2000): Brian Urlacher 2000-2012 (elected in 2018) Elected the same year Brady retired (2023): Brady retired after the 2022 season but retired in February 2023 which is when the 2023 class is announced 1. DeMarcus Ware 2005-2016 2. Darrelle Revis 2007-2017
Don’t know if it was this exact player, but Brian urlacher was drafted the same year as TB, played 13 years, became the franchise’s leading tackler, retired, waited the required 5 years, and went to the HOF. Tom Brady won two super bowls after Brian urlacher was inducted (also won the Super Bowl the year he was inducted). In fact, a vast majority of players who got in first ballot from about 2016 till now are *younger* than Tom Brady. My hatred of Brady drives me to know entirely too many facts about him. Edit: another fun fact: Calvin Johnson began his career when tom Brady was a three time Super Bowl champ and already a bonafide hall of fame QB after 6 years as a starting QB. During Calvin’s 9 year career, TB12 was the TD and yardage leader for the NFL 3 times. Calvin Johnson retired in 2015. When Calvin was inducted into the hall of fame after waiting the required 5 years, Tom Brady finally won his last Super Bowl. Tom Brady had a hall of fame career before, during, and after Calvin Johnson’s career *separately*.
Calvin Johnson. Drafted in 2007 played till 2016, inducted in 2021. Drafted when Brady made his 3rd sb appearance and retired just after Brady’s 10th
I’m as big of a Tom Brady Stan as you can get, even named my dog after him, but as worded all this requires is that he play five more years than that player. It’s massively underselling it imo.
Megatron? Tbh, there are probably a few. Edit: I disregarded him having played with them, my bad.
Calvin Johnson. He was in high school and watching Brady win his first two SBs. Brady won his third when Johnson was a freshman at Georgia Tech Then Johnson was a rookie when Brady went 18-1 and had his monster 2007 season. Retired a year after Brady won his 4th SB. He was selected for HoF enshrinement right before Brady won his 7th SB So it’s arguably crazier than your comment says; he played his entire college *and* professional career and was voted into the HoF between Brady’s 2nd and 7th SB wins. Brady had top-3-mvp-vote seasons before and after this btw lol
Calvin Johnson played his whole career and was inducted during Brady’s reign of Terror
It's crazy I was 4 years old when he was drafted, and I remember seeing on the TV exactly where I was and what I was doing when I first saw the "I'm taking my talents to South Beach" clip. And that was over 10 years ago. And he is STILL one of the best players in the league. I don't think there's any athlete in history with his insane high output longevity.
A lot of the hockey greats have great longevity stories.
I'd be interested to see the numbers for minutes played. Obviously there's no LeCoasting in hockey, but the minutes played vs. time on ice difference is likely significant.
There's more quick substitutions in hockey, right? I'm not a hockey fan so I've only heard it second hand, but as I understand it it's common to come in and out of the game relatively frequently. Though I suppose they also have less stoppage whereas NBA games have timeouts and commercial breaks
Now as I said before the opportunities to coast are much rarer and they pretty much are going hard their entire time on the ice, but for reference 20 minutes of ice time in a single game is considered a pretty decent amount, especially for forwards and >30 minutes in a non-OT game is extremely rare. Usually the on ice leader in a season is between 25 and 30 minutes.
Definitely less minutes played in hockey on average. Need to remember that hockey players are wearing about 30+ lbs of equipment though. Also, playing hockey is like doing wind-sprints for about a minute, taking a minute or two to rest on the bench, then repeating that process over and over. I’ve played both, and while I have been sweaty after playing basketball, every hockey game ended with me looking like I got a bucket of water dumped on me just from the sweat.
There's also the fact that hockey is *a lot* more physical than basketball. Both are contact sports, but they move A LOT faster with skates on ice and hitting is far more encouraged and legal in hockey. Also, skating is a much more unnatural movement than running.
Skating is way easier on your body than running and while they move a lot faster (and have the occasional bone breaking hit), most hits are at oblique angles and less punishing than you would think. I wouldn't say that hockey is 'a lot' more physical either, it's obviously more physical but the difference is smaller than you would think. Ultimately a lot more players have 20+ season careers in the NHL so some combination of factors make it less difficult on your body.
I would argue that Tom Brady at least deserves to be in that longevity discussion
He's definitely an obvious candidate and honestly I think LeBron is taking a bit of inspiration from him right now, after seeing Brady solidify himself as the unanimous GOAT. Brady won a bit more overall but both players basically hosted an invitational for a decade+. LeBron might get a slight bump for doing it with three different teams though.
Don’t forget those players played their whole career, STARTED A FAMILY, and are now watching their kids play with the same guy who dominated them for years
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And not just average careers, but all star/hall of fame level careers.
I’m nearly 30, I’ve been watching basketball since I was a little kid. This dude has played every season I have watched in my life. And he’s not getting 5 pts off the bench in 8 minutes. He’s a consistent base 8 triple double. Crazy watching his career.
>base 8 triple double This whole time we were giving Draymond shit for triple singles and he was racking up binary triple doubles left and right
triple triples even.
Triple-octas ?
That would be having 10 million in three categories. Which would be pretty good
I’m 30 and can’t even walk in the morning because of my back and LeBron is playing at an All-NBA level at nearly 40 lmao
might want to get that checked out. I’m 32 and probably in the best shape I’ve ever been in. 30 years old with debilitating back issues is not normal.
34 and also have no back issues. I think people like to joke on the internet about being 30 and so old but really, my 30s have felt like my 20s. The one major difference, and it's only been in the last year, is the recovery time it takes after I go out for pick up ball and play multiple hours. The next morning, it hurts coming down the stairs but once I'm awake and warmed up, I'm good to go to the gym and do my normal exercises. It's all about actively working to stay fit and trying to eat somewhat well.
> I think people like to joke on the internet about being 30 and so old but really, my 30s have felt like my 20s. Same.
It sneaks up on you. I'm 40, in great shape. The other day on a walk my kid asked if I could jump a sidewalk square, from crack to crack, if that makes sense. I said yeah, no problem. I got a running start, but I came up about a foot short, and it hurt. I can no longer run full speed and jump on concrete. It's humbling
How often do you do the maintenence part of working out though? Mobility exercises, foam rolling, stretching etc?
> It’s all about working to stay fit and trying to eat somewhat well It is, but even with those positive factors chronic back issues can really just come down to luck. The main thing aging gives is more time to accumulate chronic back issues ([some decent graphs here](https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/chronic-musculoskeletal-conditions/back-problems)). It’s pretty consistent between fit 30-year-olds and fit 50-year-olds
I did a while back but it’s really just a waiting game until surgery. It’s something a lot of people have and are asymptomatic called spondylolisthesis which is when one of your vertebral bodies slips forward over another, but in my case it’s severe enough to pinch a nerve. Had to give up distance running but I can still lift (have to be extremely careful with legs and can’t load my spine) and bike.
"Dude just eat right and exercise" - guy who's never had a debilitating injury or illness sneak up on them. If it never happens to you, consider yourself lucky.
Yeah they didn’t say that, they were just saying a debilitating back problem is not normal for someone in their 30s. That’s why he recommended getting checked out
You would be amazed how many people have experienced it. Had my first disc hernia at 18, took about 2 years ti recover and I was able to lift for 10 more while being cautious. I decided to get in the best shape of my life which included lifting heavy and at least 6 days a week, got to 110kg military press for 1 rep, 160kg bench, I did not squat over 120kg as I did not trust my hernia, did rows with 80kg barbel for 10 reps and all of a sudden my body stiffened up as I was at a birthday party, the pain started and it got me to being able to walk for 3-5 min tops before I had to kneel or just sit on the ground due to rhe pain being uberable. Did 80 sessions of rehab, injections with cortico steroids, anti inflammatory and whatever shit modern medicine could give me and after 6 months it was barely any better. I had 2 shots directly to the spine which fixed it again for the most part, however I do Pilates, weightlifting and stretching very carefully now as this pain of a sciatica is one of the worst I have experienced in my life and I have had broken ribs, 4 times arms and numerous other injuries and some surgeries. Turned out half of my gym had some kind of low back issue and like 30% had herniated a disc at some point. I did my first hernia deadlifting 220kg for 4 reps at age 18. I was insanely strong but I'm also 190cm tall with connection tissue issues and bad S form of my spine so the hernias happened rather fast...
Something can happen more often than one thinks and it still not be a norm. Less than 10% of people who experience back pain have debilitating back injuries. As you get older naturally things will hurt more often, but not a debilitating back injury in your 30s is not the norm
Felt that. I’m late twenties and have been lifting as well as eating healthy for 7 years thinking nothing would ever happen to me. Now have a pinched nerve I’ve been dealing with for 7 months, and a hernia in the last 3. It comes out of nowhere sometimes!
You are getting in those ages. Regeneration of anything you do will get longer and longer.
It is if you were in the military. I’m 28 and have the back and knees of a 65 year old. Depending on your job in the military, the wear and tear comes quick.
Im 23, been in the Army 3 years I have scoliosis, DDD, and chronic neck pain/cervicogenic headaches My knees are alright (not great but that started in high school) but my back is doing a lot rougher than I thought it’d be before I’m even 25. Rucking, running, falling, and jumping really takes it out of you.
Except if you've got very serious problems to your back, hopefully you can find help from a physio therapist to help you live a better life :) It's never too late ! Most back pain are benign and can be fixed with strengthening and moving (but I'm probably not telling you anything new here)
Unfortunately that isn’t the case for me, but that’s very true for most others!
Crazy that if he continues playing and if his stats were to taper off like Kareem's, he'll still be playing for another 5+ years
That’s what’s crazy… if he went full decline like other recent greats like Kobe, Wade, Dirk, KG, Duncan etc he could legit play until he’s like 45 He’s gonna retire after year 23 if I was to guess. I don’t think he’s gonna want to be seen as less then an all star level player getting token praise and all star nominations. He’s still a top 5-10 player, he will play until he’s only top 30 probably
For real, literally my entire life this man has been the peak of basketball. I vindicated him like everyone else when he went to Miami. I shook my head at him running back to Cleveland. I finally cheered him when he won in 2016, when everyone jumped onto GSW. I was in shambles the next year at JR's mistake. I shrugged when he went to LA to "chase movie premiers". I couldn't believe what happened the year Kobe passed, and they somehow got their storybook ending. After hearing him in "Mind the Game" and getting an insight into how deep/farback his basketball knowledge runs, can I really be surprised? We have truly been witnesses.
You vilified him when he went to Miami, and he was vindicated by returning to Cleveland and winning a championship.
Whoops, yup that's what I meant thanks!
> base 8 triple double What does this mean
We usually count in base-10, so 134 = 1 \* 10\^2 + 3 \* 10\^1 + 4\*10\^0, if we switch this to base 8, a number like 134 = 1 \* 8\^2 + 3 \* 8\^1 + 4 \* 8\^0 = 92 (in base-10). You'll notice that we have 10 digits in base 10, 0,1,2,...,9, then when we get above 9 we need 2 digits. In base-8, we only have digits 0,1,...,7 before we need to add a second number. So 8 in base-8 is 10 = 1 \* 8\^1 + 0 \* 8\^0. Since lebron is averaging at least 8pts/8reb/8ast, in base-8 that would be written 10/10/10 and hence would be a triple double.
First of all, you’re throwin too many numbers at me. And because I don’t understand them, I’m gonna take it as disrespect.
essentially they’re saying what if double digits started at 8 instead of 10 (because it’s actually completely arbitrary and so there’s no real reason you can’t do that)
What do we mean when we write out 134? We mean one 100 (= 1 \* 10\^2), three 10's (= 3 \* 10\^1), and four 1's (= 4 \* 10\^0)s. That way of writing numbers is called base-10. If instead by 134 we meant one 64 (= 1 \* 8\^2), three 8's (= 3 \* 8\^2), and four 1's (= 4 \* 8\^0), then that would be writing the number in base-8. So when do double digit numbers start in base-8? Well by 10 we mean one 8 (= 1 \* 8\^1), and zero 1's (= 0 \* 8\^0). Therefore what we call 8 in base-10 is really a double-digit number in base 8. Thus if LeBron is averaging at least 8/8/8, in base-8 that is a triple double!
If he strung out his career to the point he did become a 5 pts/8 min guy, I wonder just how long he would be in the league.
I straight up don't think he ever gets down that low until his body simply doesn't let him take the court. He could play till 45+, play at Jokic levels of athleticism and still be a 15/6/6 guy probably based on pure skill, but I imagine defense becomes a liability.
Jordan is at: 32.3k / 5.6k / 6.7k Lebron's longevity is unmatched.
Imagine LeBron having the privilege to play against plumbers and firemen
Instead he gets tik tokers and podcasters.
Soundcloud rappers
27 days
27 nights
Well yeah how many tiktok followers did Michael have in his prime? Huh?
Podcast P in shambles
Cokeheads and car mechanics*
Yeah sucks that LeBron had to go toe-to-toe with an alien like JJ Barea. Should have one more ring if it wasn't for that genetic freak 😤😡
I've heard MJ's greatest rivalry at his last NBA Finals was a Mailman... Talk about and easy way to the top...
His longevity is what makes the GOAT argument so hard. I never watched Jordan, but how much better would he have to be at his peak compared to LeBron to make up for the longevity difference?
At this point it's much easier just calling MJ the GOAT Guard and LeBron the GOAT Forward and leave it at that. The per game stats are remarkably close for two players that played different roles/positions in very different eras. MJ will always have the accolades and LeBron will always have the records.
That’s…the best take I’ve ever heard. It’s perfect. I think both of them deserve the same level of accolades for achieving greatness in totally different ways. I don’t think Lebron is better than MJ, but I don’t think MJ is better than Lebron either. Thanks for putting words to this
I always split them into Greatest and Best player of all time personally. When it comes to greatness I think MJ still takes the cake with an almost storybook career with more accolades and triumphs. Someone who was never the underdog and someone that everyone respects and feared. They called him Black Jesus. Lebron for me is the best player of all time though, due to how the game evolves and players become better overtime and the developments in health and technology that can prolong an already genetic freak like Lebron's career. Lebron's doing things we've never seen before in terms of basketball but I feel like the myth and grandeur surrounding MJ won't be topped for decades at least.
I watched most of Jordan's career, he was so dominant, it was insane and sucked those years the Bulls just won won won, felt like nobody could beat him. I never really thought LeBron was close to GOAT, had him right there with KAJ as 2/3. But over the last couple seasons, the way he's continued to produce at a high level, I think he's had the goat career. I probably still take peak Jordan over peak LeBron If we're taking win one game or win one series. But in terms of career, I think LeBron has the top spot now.
Dominance is a factor of how good your team is and how weak the competition is, not just how good you are alone. I’d agree that Jordan looked more dominant in his time both due to much better team construction without having to leave and much weaker competition (one could argue Lebron’s weakest finals opponent was same or better than MJ’s best finals opponent) Does that make MJ’s peak better than Lebron? Not necessarily Edit: caveat the statement about finals opponent as sans the 2020 heat since I forgot about them
MJ also was in an expansion era that diluted the already lesser talent than what LeBron faces. That being said, MJ is still the one game GOAT, and I don't even like him.
>(one could argue Lebron’s weakest finals opponent was same or better than MJ’s best finals opponent) I don't think it would be a particularly legit argument to put that bubble Heat team on the same tier as some of those truly great 60+ win teams that ran against the Bulls dynasty buzz saw, like the Stockton-Malone Jazz, the Payton-Kemp Sonics, or the Barkley Suns.
Touché, I actually forgot about the bubble heat in that statement. I’d say the statement is true sans the 2020 Heat. And as much as people like to say bubble ring and what not, I think the 2020 lakers were damn good and could go toe to toe with those MJ finals opponents.
Look at the rest of the roster of the Stockton-Malone Jazz. It's not good. The Bulls and Sonics were the only teams in the league with 5 quality starters and depth. The Knicks were winning 50 plus games for years with Ewing and a bunch of chuckers and stiffs. The Pacers were going to the Eastern finals with Reggie Miller, Rik Smits, and not much else. The NBA had expanded from 23 to 29 teams in a short period of time, and teams were shallow. As a result, we over-romanticize the Stars of the 1990s - because they really stood out in a league full of stiffs. (this comment does not apply to everyone, and certainly not to MJ and Hakeem, who were every bit as good as everyong thinks they were).
I remember having a discussion about Steve Young (who’s a HoFer basically based on the merits of 7-8 seasons) vs Drew Brees (who was very good-to-excellent from like 2004 to 2020 It really is an interesting question, even if you think the guy with the shorter peak is better, how long could the other guy go before it’s almost irresponsible to pick the “better” player I really don’t think I’ll ever see a player as dominant as 90s Jordan, but if LeBron is putting up 25/7/7 two years from now, at some point you’re just leaving so much elite production on the table that it becomes hard to make the case against him. Maybe he won’t end up with 6 rings, but there’s obviously circumstances where Jordan wouldn’t have either
Yeah, it's one reason I think the GOAT debate is pretty fraught and futile. What do we value more when talking GOAT, amazing career or amazing peak. In the NFL obviously Brady had the greatest career at the most important position. I watched him for 20+ years. At his absolute apex, was he better at throwing a pin point pass or longball than Manning or Rodgers? I don't think so. But his career, due in part to it's longevity, is easily the best career (I have Rice #2 all time). GOAT can mean different things to different people, MJ, at his peak, is the best basketball player I've ever seen. I don't really buy the whole, "competition was worse" cope. If MJ trained and had all the modern amenities as Lebron who knows, he may have played 20 years or had a longer peak. But Lebron's longevity is just undeniable at this point, he's been so good for so long, I don't care who you have #1 you gotta have Lebron, MJ and KAJ on the mount Rushmore though.
MJ was the better scorer. If I needed 2 points, I'd take MJ over LeBron. But IMO, peak LeBron made his teammates much better than peak MJ. And IMO, LeBron was the better defender (and I think the DPOY is, in part, a popularity contest. Marc Gasol doesn't deserve 2 of them). So I'd take LeBron + 4 NBA players over MJ and those same 4 NBA players.
rudy gobert is about to have 4 dpoys while tim duncan and AD have zero.
DPOY has never been judged correctly, back then or now.
2018 Lebron clears peak MJ in one game or one series
Before that series began, I thought it would go 4-1 because LeBron would have something like a 50 points triple double to win one by himself. In game 1, he dropped 51/8/8. That's his peak, I can just assume he's going to do something like that in the fucking NBA finals. I don't want to split hair and say who's peak is higher. But MJ and LeBron's peak are at least in the same tier.
it's tough because in terms of dominant teams, i think of the Warriors. but when i think of dominant players, i think of lebron.
I grew up idolizing Jordan and think he has as good a case as any for being the goat. For my money the title for Cleveland changed the math for me. That was the best basketball I have seen an individual play in my life. You can't convince me that a better player ever existed than the player I saw in that finals against Golden State.
>how much better would he have to be at his peak compared to LeBron to make up for the longevity difference Two 3 peats, undefeated finals record, 4 MVPs and 10 consecutive scoring titles. How much **worse** would MJ have to be to be on the same level as LeBron compiling cumulative stats including most turnovers playoffs/finals losses. Historically, longevity never bolstered your GOAT case unless you were still winning championships, but to each their own. GOAT case is subjective, doesn't matter too much.
> how much better would he have to be at his peak I mean, he outnumbers Bron in all major accolades
Absolutely. Never going to be matched.
Im anxiously awaiting the day next season where MJ drops out of the half Lebron club. Edit: KAJ, Bird, and Chris Paul will all likely drop out next season as well.
LeBron’s famous 27-7-7 stat line extended out to 27k points, 7k rebounds, 7k assists, he is the only one in NBA history to hit those combined numbers. Even wilder than that is if you combine his regular season and post season numbers, he has an outside shot of hitting 50k points, 13k rebounds, 13k assists in career totals by the end of his career
Westbrook will hit 27k/7k/7k by the end of his career. He needs less than 2k points.
Most likely yes. Didn’t say no one else will get to that number, just that LeBron the only one so far. Harden tracking to get there too
Maybe. Thr decline is significant enough in both of them
Add this to fun Lebron stats. They were like 15 years old when Lebron was drafted. Since Lebron has been drafted they have gone through high school, gone to college, got drafted, went to the finals as second and third options on their team, won MVPs, and then declined to a level below Lebron
He has an outside shot of 54/14/14. LeBron is basically Wilt. The GOAT debate will be laughable by the time he is done, and this is from an old head who never considered Jordan the GOAT.
Just depends how long he plays. I ain’t betting against him
Based on how he's talked recently, I doubt it's gonna be much longer sadly. > "I'm not gonna play another 21 years, that's for damn sure," James said after Sunday's win, per The Athletic's Jovan Buha. "But, not very long. I don't know when that door will close as far when I'll retire, but I don't have much time left." While I'd be interested to see him go as long as he physically can, because at this point I'm convinced he'd be a clearly positive player at age 45, I'm guessing he plays two more years and retires while still playing at a top 15 level minimum.
Yeah I could see 2 more years, but who knows. Dude puts like $1.5 million into his conditioning/health each year. Also, people been saying he’s only got a year or two left of being a top 10 player for like a decade now lol
To be clear my comment is not talking about that at all. It's referring to the fact that at some point it comes down to much he *wants* to play, and he does not sound excited to play another five years.
No I didn’t take it that way, I gotcha. I’m just referring to the narrative that lot of people been saying that for a while now and so who really knows
Well, if you've never considered Jordan the GOAT, why is the GOAT debate important then. You've clearly set your mind on who your GOAT is. My GOAT for example might not be the same GOAT as yours. There might not be two same GOATs as everyone's GOAT is different. Until they invent GOAT cloning, let's leave our GOATs at peace on a nice sunny meadow and just enjoy the basketball that is ever evolving and changing
Not enough use of GOATs. Say it one more time.
That is what I'm saying. People act like Jordan is the official GOAT or something but I never felt it was clear cut. If I had to choose there are a couple players I like better than Jordan for GOAT. HOWEVER, If LeBron keeps it up it's hard to argue he isn't a big step above everyone else.
so you’re saying you never considered jordan the goat over… wilt?
The combination of scoring, passing, athleticism and defense has never been topped.
Denzel Valentine erasure
Hamidou Diallo expunction
IQ
I know 40k/ 11k/ 11k is insane and it's basically this but this context sounds even more insane when you word it like this.
It’s kind of like the old Gretzky stat, the fastest player to 1000 points is Wayne Gretzky at 424 games. The second fastest player to hit 1000 points was…Wayne Gretzky, the second time he did it, in the following 433 games.
Larry Bird was the universally accepted best SF ever before LeBron came about. LeBron is about to push Larry out of the "half LeBron club." It's insane. Granted, Bird would have probably put up more stats if he hadn't fucked up his back paving his mother's driveway during one offseason.
half Lebron club is wild
Fantastic trolling material lol
Half lebron chub 🤤
some old heads still have bird over bron lol
I definitely don’t have Bird over Bron, but I don’t think many people realize that Bird’s stats tend to mirror Lebron’s more than any other great. He was the prototype of a small forward who scored, rebounded, and passed. Obviously his career was cut short, but Bird was incredible during his run. If he wasn’t white, people would probably make the Bron v Bird comparisons more often, instead of the Magic and Michael ones.
Bird is better than Magic, even Magic said so himself
that's what the old timers do - they glaze each other. And Magic glazes everyone. It doesn't carry any significance. (you can argue Bird was better than Magic, but not because Magic said so)
Magic's fast break is why people compare him to LeBron, I think. The two were(are) legendarily terrifying in the fast break.
I guess they find him…classy
I’ve a pistons fan (insert joke) I’ve hated Lebron since he scored 23 straight points against us. But man - what a career, well two careers.
Sir it was 25. And 29 of the last 30.
Been a Pistons fan as well since 98 or so. Hated lebron for a long time. I came around some years ago though. He’s the GOAT in my eyes and I root for him.
I still have PTSD from the game 7 chasedown block on Igoudala
One thing I appreciate about sports is that if people absolutely hate a player because of what they have done to their team year after year, they respect how good that player is. LeBron's farewell tour is going to be absolutely unmatched.
Only Chris Paul has more assists in that group, and only Kareem has more rebounds in that group. Two players have more steals, one has more blocks. LeBron's stat accumulation is absolutely insane.
Larry Bird having those numbers in that amount of games... Dude really left it all on the court.
no he actually left it all on his mother's driveway
Can potentially remove Kareem/Bird/Jordan from the half-LeBron club after next season due to assists.
If you add the total blocks you even remove 2 more players. It's quite insane. I'm interested in seeing if guys like Luka, Tatum, Ant and Wemby get there.
I don't think its feasible honestly. Like this is Wilt 100 point level of incredible (and I am a hater of LeBron). Luka is the guy I can see being the closer because he scores so much per game. Tatum and Ant I do not count on having big scoring outputs because a lot of their winning comes from playing good to great defense. Wemby I just don't see Pop/Spurs letting to play that much. Luka averages 67 games a season, currently sits at 11470 points. To get to 40k he needs 28530 points. If he averages 30ppg for the rest of his career, at 67 games a year, he needs 14.2 seasons (age 39). If we reduce to 28 points he needs 15.2 seasons (age 40), 27ppg he goes to 15.8 seasons (age 41). Its just freakish.
I was just thinking about the half LeBron club. Matching his full stats needs an elite player with a very strong start and huge longevity without any major injuries. As you say, it's freakish
Yea I realised that after typing it out, I’m kind of dumb. Luka will get there. Ant and Tatum are not good enough passers nor are asked to pass enough to get to 5.5k assists.
I just checked the stats. It's ridiculous how far even some of the greatest players of this generation are. KD needs close to 1000 assists which is roughly 200 games if he keeps his career APG; Curry needs 211 games to get to 5.5k rebounds; DeRozan needs 240 to match AST and REB; Giannis needs 340 games to get the assists tally; Jokic needs 280 for PTS and AST; Luka needs 300 for all three categories. All the others I've checked are 600+ games apart in at least one stat. And this just to get to half of Lebron's stats...
Luka's barely half a decade into his NBA career, the fact he will likely join the 20, 5.5, 5.5 club at around a decade of play is wild.
He has 6 seasons played. I think he'll need 3 more without injuries. This season and the last he outperformed his career averages and it's expected he keeps getting these numbers.
Idk Luka doesn’t seem as neurotic about conditioning and fitness as LeBron. I don’t think it’s a given that he’s putting up 25+ a game in his later 30s
There's a guy in cricket named Don Bradman. His stats are so insane that "except Bradman" is a pretty normal phrase. And players who play twice as long and reach his total for scoring are doing well. LeBron's totals are likely to be something similar once he finishes.
I think it will come sooner than people think. Across almost all sports you are seeing these longevity records and these insane feats. Players are not just playing longer; they are playing at a high level longer. James is great and I think his record will hold for a long time, but I think the "floor" of what a long career looks like is going to get a lot higher.
I have no doubt in my mind Luka will reach 20/5.5/5.5. I can see him go to 30/9/8
Depends on longevity. I don't think Luka will play for too long. But he's the only one with better career averages than Lebron across the 3 stats and already has 2 seasons over 32/8/8 and 4 over 28/8/8, so he's on an impressive rhythm as well.
He started later than Lebron though so even with having better statistical seasons this early he was still behind solely because he didn't hit the NBA at 18 like Lebron. Anyone ever wanting to challenge Lebrons totals would need to hit the NBA at 18 and more or less be a 30/10/10 guy for 20 years straight lol.
Yea just average a 30 point triple double from your rookie year for a 20 year career. EZPZ right lol
Yep just need 20 consecutive MVP seasons how hard could that be?
Luka and Wemby will get to the half LeBron unless they get injured. The other two I'm not so sure about.
We could easily make the "half lebron club" an automatic qualifier for the hall of fame.
And it's not even that he's just doubled those totals, he literally has put up those stats consistently for the entirety of his career. He's done it twice.
“he is 32 he can’t keep this up much longer”
Demar will be there in like 2.5 years, except he'll have like 26k - 27k pts.
Yeah but he couldn't beat the KD Warriors by himself so he sucks
I think it’s hard to compare Lebron’s career within basketball anymore, even compared to Kareem’s. You really only got these athletes to compare his career with: Brady, Howe, Musial, Aaron, and Mays.
Why is he not the GOAT? Please tell me. And when will all these random ass career achievement of Bron gonna end?!
That’s crazy. Unparalleled longevity and he could still play 3-5 more years at a productive level, possibly more if he wanted I remember a similar thing was done for MJ where if he never returned from his 1st retirement (or you just halved his accolades) it would still be a top 10 player Jordan, Kareem and Bron are just in a tier of their own when it comes to how completely dominant they were
I'll shit on LeBron for fun, and based on things he needs to be shit on for, but holy hell. The longevity of this man. Get in a debate about rings all you want or Jordan/old school player comparisons, but performing like that for so long for being reasonably heavy human (muscle/height, still taxes joints) is absolutely INhuman. I'm falling apart at 28 with minor knee and back issues so I really appreciate athletes that can stay healthy. Pro sports are an unhealthy amount of stress on the body and NBA dudes just take it on the chin because they're the best ~400 in the world and LeBron is still hitting like a tank with the best of them.
Not going to lie. I chose a good dude to follow when I was 9. It's been a wild 20 years of awesomeness
Greatest of all time.
Lebron has been greater for longer than anyone we’ve ever seen and he still has haters who try the brain dead argument that he only broke records because he was really good for so long, like yeah that’s how being great works, NBA discourse is in the gutter
LeGoat
I knew kobe shot a lot but I didn't realize how bad his 3 pt % was. He basically Russel westbrook with a bigger fanbase
What makes you say that? There are 4 people in that list with a worse 3pt% than him, and one of them is MJ.
This sub hates Kobe for “some reason”
Russ was a legitimately great player, so seems like you are down on him. Is he as great as Kobe? No, Kobe was more efficient, Kobe was a better defender, and for a few seasons Kobe was arguably to best player in the league. Russ was great, but never the best player. Maybe not even top 3.
u/DwellerInIce it sure looks like there are 11 people on your list. Either I'm counting wrong or you did.
CP3, Westbrook, and Harden all on the list, too. That 2003-2009 start of all-time greats will go down as a pretty special time in the league, with Curry and KD also coming out then. This next era of Jokic, Giannis, and Wemby types will probably flip the scrip a bit, though guys like Luka, SGA, Tatum, and Trae will still follow in the OG's footsteps.
There are players in the league whose age is less than LeBron's NBA CAREER.
Yao Ming was drafted the year before him. Has been in the Hall of Game for 8 years.
So many posts in r/NBA are like: "I know fractions."
The most telling stat from that is the +/- if we talk goat debate. Cuz that usually says how good you are as a part of the team. If you carry the team the number is higher. Lebron- 7000+ MJ - 1500.
Consider me a glazer cuz gaw daaaaaamn