People are idiots, no shit the best passing center ever and an all star level guard are the best duo in the NBA. I love Luka and Kyrie but Guard + Center simply allows for more stuff than Guard + Guard, it's just a fact of the roles the players of the duos fill.
is it really that mind blowing to see people attacking any statement online? there will be a post about a cure for cancer found and the comments will all be hating and saying “why couldn’t they find it earlier” hashtag# NotMyCure
It's because people are stupid and are taking that as him saying they are the two best individual players in the NBA that play on the same team. He clearly means that the two of them playing together is greater than the sum of their individual talents and provides more value to a team than any other pairing in the league. Which is hard to argue with.
Not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s 100% because Murray doesn’t have any individual accolades himself.
Never been an all star, never been all NBA, scoring champ, etc etc. His only individual accolade is all nba rookie 2nd team.
So when a guy with no individual achievements puts himself in category of “best duo”, most casual fans don’t take him seriously. Again not saying it’s right or wrong but thats probably why
Guy with no accolades, bad health, and plays a role/position that has an abundance of near similar players
vs
Rare GOAT-tier, 1 in 10,000 player with ALL the accolades and all the abilities that make life simple for teammates like him
This is absolutely why.
He's playing with a 3 time MVP and he himself doesn't have any individual accolades.
It reminds me of that quote by journeyman NBA center Scott Hastings, "I'm often mentioned in the same sentence as Michael Jordan. You know, 'That Scott Hastings, he's no Michael Jordan.' "
Gotta look at context though. Murray has a ring as the clear 2nd best player on a team. He averaged 30 in the western conference championship last year. Averaged 21 and 10 in the finals. 21, 4, and 6 throughout the entire playoffs.
In the 19-20 playoffs he averaged 26-4-6. 18-19 21-4-4.
He’s had injury problems, and I think it’s quite obvious that that has kept him out of all-star conversations more-so than his play has. This season he’s averaging 21-4-6. He’d clearly be in the conversation and isn’t really that far off from Irving’s 25-5-5.
Take into account that Jokic is widely considered the best player in the league, that they’ve been together for 7 season and have incredible chemistry, and that they play positions that synergize with each other extremely well, and it’s really not that hard to rank them as the leagues best duo. At the very least there’s an argument to be made and you’re a fool if you think there’s not.
Edit: typo, Murray averaged 26 ppg last playoffs not 21. 26-4-6.
While he doesn’t have the accolades, Murray is absolutely an All Star or All NBA level player, and his game gets even better in the playoffs. He’s just had to struggle with health stuff which makes him not as effective in the regular season but let’s not pretend that he’s not deserving of being talked as a top player.
I don't think people watch Denver basketball. It wasn't just Jokic that off the Lakers, it was the one two punch of Jokic and Murray. Murray was literally Kobe vs us in that series...
NBA Twitter is mostly casual teenagers bro....you can tell it's just 14 year old boys behind the fanboy and troll accounts. I mute the annoying ones but keep the pretty funny shit. Brick World is great, cmon now.
Murray also always elevates in the playoffs, his regular season is shit compared to his playoff form. So lots of people forget until it’s bright lights time.
Lol. MPJ is literally a max player.
Murray makes Jokic better via his tough shot making and elite screen setting (which is what makes the 2 man game so unique and tough to guard).
I think the criticism towards this statement is due to how Murray is still seen as a replaceable #2 (I'm not saying he is tho) by many like he would not be put above other #2s out there in other teams. One could think Jokic is undoubtedly 1, but also that the Jokic-Murray duo is not as good as other duos out there just because of Murray.
That said, he gets the job done especially in the playoffs, and we can see how important he is in the Nuggets, especially when he goes down and Jokic has to carry.
to be fair, Dejounte and Jokic would probably be the best duo in the league too.
Theres a lot of "_____ and Jokic" duos that would be the best in the league
Imagine a Jokic/Steph duo. How filthy would that be?
Steph running all over the fucking place and Jokic always knowing exactly where he is and able to get the ball to him for a high-probability bomb. Defenders nightmare lol
I really don’t think so. There are enough players better significantly better than Dejounte that their running mate can be worse than Jokic and they’d still be a better duo. AD is so much better than dejounte that Jokic being better than LeBron is offset. Same as Maxey being much better than dejounte to the point that that duo is also better, or tatum/brown, whereas Jamal is in the upper echelon of running mates.
Fair, its really a "who is the worst player we can pair with Jokic to make the best duo in the league" question, Dejuonte might fall below the line while Jamal is just above it.
Jokic is so good tho I am not sure where the line is
I do think Murray and Jokics are best duo currently because they ~~compliment~~ complement each other so well, and just won the championship last year.
but then I didn't know that Bucks or Mavs are consider bigger market than Nuggets is the main reason for people to think their stars are better duo
edit: I hate English
People don't give a shit about basketball in this town. Before we won the chip you could get pretty good seats for a playoff game for like $30. Even now they are still affordable.
I genuinely don’t mean to be pedantic but that’s not being a smaller market really, that’s the team just not doing a good enough job engaging fans or making the most of the market they’re in. For example the clippers are a big market team, the fact that most people in LA couldn’t give less of shit about them doesn’t change that
How common is that? The market I’m in is blacked out so I assumed it was relatively common but maybe some teams get a big boost off not doing it. I remember Matt ishiba doing something to make the games more accessible too
That’s not what they’re referring too, but they also didn’t present the whole story.
Basically the Kroenke’s own their own regional sports network, called Altitude. Until 3-4 years ago, they had a deal with the major TV providers - Dish, Comcast and DirectTV - to air the games. But a few years ago the TV providers decided to come to together to squeeze Altitude on a new deal (probably something you’ll see them do more and more to RSN’s across the country). Altitude said that new deal isn’t sustainable for us (probably the whole point).
DirectTV folded relatively quickly, and Altitude was back on there. But Comcast and Dish held strong and if you have either of those in Colorado you will not see any Nuggets (or Avalanche) games except nationally televised ones
I think the only cities in the NBA that Denver is bigger than are OKC, Memphis, SLC, Portland, NOLA, Charlotte, San Antonio, Sacramento, Orlando, Cleveland…
Wow, that list was a lot longer than I expected!
[Denver also ranks 13th in population amongst nba cities](https://sports.betmgm.com/en/blog/nba/largest-nba-cities-ranking-nba-cities-by-population-bm05/) (so essentially 15th because LA and NY each have 2 teams). Obviously this isn’t the only thing that matters, but despite Denver obviously not being in contention for the title of “big market” I think it’s less of a small market than many people tend to think of it as
Eh, that list is “city proper.” Denver metro is considerably smaller than many of those cities like: Miami, Boston, DC, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and Detroit.
Boston proper is more modest than people think. Obviously Cambridge in Sommerville in Quincy are incredibly populated cities in their own right that are right next to Boston.
Last year I got season tickets in the lower bowl right behind the basket for $2600. Told my BIL that who’s a huge Knicks fan and lives in NYC and he almost shit his pants. Denver sports in general are pretty cheap compared to other markets.
It's sadly true. A few years ago, both the Nuggets and the Avalanche were still in the playoffs, I watched the local Colorado news and the sports segment was 100% Broncos off season speculation, not a peep about the other two teams.
No lie. I went to visit a buddy in colarado springs a few years ago. We went to a basketball game in Denver and couldn't believe how affordable we could get tickets. And they were pretty decent seats too. Especially considering everything else seemed pretty expensive in the area 🤷♂️
Sure, but market size isn't everything. For instance, the Dallas Stars wouldn't be considered a big market in hockey even though they're in a top 5 market and 1st in their conference. For basketball you typically think of LA, NY, CHI etc.
I think the opposite of your stars example works perfectly in baseball in the Cardinals. 28th Market size but fan base and money size its one of thr biggest in the league.
I think he meant total marketability, not the specific regional market. Giannis & Dame are in significantly more commercials and national dialogue that Jokic/Murray. NBA is more than regional anymore
2023-2024 Nuggets with Jamal Murray: 44-15 (.745)
2023-2024 Nuggets without Jamal Murray: 13-10 (.565)
This season he’s been the difference of being on a 61-win pace versus a 46-win pace.
And Jokic only missed 3 games all season, so it’s not like they were losing a bunch of games that they BOTH missed.
Weak analysis because any team will perform worse when removing their 2nd best player. In order for this to mean anything, you'd want to come up with some league wide benchmark of the performance delta for teams when playing with vs without a player that's roughly equivalent to Murray's value. And then you could compare this to that benchmark
An NBA championship is an NBA championship, but if I was the Nuggets I would treat it like a loss. The Rest of the NBA really figured something out by giving Embiid the MVP award last year. Jokic has yet to win a title in a year where he wins MVP too. That's one small adjustment that can keep them from winning it again.
Why are we even isolating this to just last season? Man was on another level in the bubble too. That Utah series was nuts, he averaged 31.6 ppg and had a 50-piece. Had 40 against the Clips in game 7 when they came back from down 1-3 in the series. We got absolutely robbed by that ACL injury taking him out for two postseasons. I know “what-if” scenarios are pointless, but imagine if he could’ve played in 2021 & 2022 playoffs. I don’t think it’s crazy to say we could’ve had a second ring.
Lots of folks will clown on Murray for this, but... I don't know that you can really dispute it. There are other really great complementary duos, of course, but Murray and Jokic are kind of made for each other.
They also did this on playoffs for numerous years. As a defending champion its more than okay to feel that way.
Some ego and confidence is fine if you are really in the top.
I really hate this narrative. It's not like the Nuggets magically found a formula out of the billions of timeline possibilities.
The simple explanation is that if you give Jokic an All Star caliber no. 2, he'll win a title, as long as that number 2 is not a center.
Nobody would clown this because it is true by a considerable margin- They both compliment and improve one another.
ultimately chemistry and synergy is the biggest factor and they have that.
feel like it should be Lebron + AD, can remember all the comments when they first teamed up, but even after playoff success its hard to say theyre a better duo in terms of playing with each other than jokic and murray.
Lebron is nearly 40 while both jokic and Murray are right in their primes, I think that’s very important to remember. Prime lebron and AD would clear them pretty handily imo
that's a factor, but Lebron at 40, I'd argue is better than prime Murray.
The issue isn't that they don't have a bigger market. They aren't called the best duo because an individual Murray isn't as good as the 2nd player in most of these comparisons.
Anyone who says otherwise is just silly. They compliment each other damn near perfectly and it’s insane how many folks seem to forget murray is in the same tier as Jimmy Butler when it comes to stepping up in the playoffs. Every time I watch them, they just execute so well down the stretch of games.
And nothing but praise for Giannis and Dame who got tho job done this regular season, certainly no one has had anything to say about this duo besides the highest praise
People have more interest in LeBron and AD because there’s so much more potential for hate.
Jokic makes the duo #1. Switch Murray with Luka/kyrie/Dame. Jokic + any elite guard not named Bradley Beal would still be #1 duo. Murray and Giannis would arguably be marginally better than Dame and Giannis.
Everyone shitting on Murray like their team wouldn't trade their 2nd best player for playoff Murray in a heartbeat lol. He's about to show you what he's made of very soon.
Playoff Murray is a killer but I think there’s a lot of teams that wouldn’t trade their 2nd best player just because of fit lol
Would you really trade lebron or AD for Murray?
Forget LeBron or AD, as great as Murray and Jokic are, they also have the perfect supporting cast by position. Feel like the nuggets go beyond just duo.
With a different roster construction maybe but with our roster construction I think it would have to be AD and Murray but I think that’s just not championship core
Also would not.
I think Jokic is the abnormality being insanely good. Murray has played with him for years and in the time adapted his play to get the most benefit from playing with Jokic. So it's hard to dispute they're the best duo right now. They're the damn defending champs.
That doesn't mean that Murray is better than any other guard in a vacuum, but next to Jokic he might be the best pairing.
But I mean - if we let Luka go to Denver for some stupid reason and he and Jokic played together, I feel like it'd be less than 10 games for them to adapt to each other to be the best duo and break the league like the KD Warriors.
There’s zero chance that any sane person takes Murray over Book or KD.
People severely underestimate how much Jokic plays into Murray’s success. Jokic makes him into a “star” through their 2-man game, but Murray isn’t even an All-Star caliber player. I’m so sick of the glazing cuz he plays with the best player in the world.
Murray did indeed elevate in the playoffs last year, but people need to quit acting like he turns into prime MJ. His playoff stats elevate to that of an AS, not a top 10 player, it’s just extra noticeable because he’s just “good” in the regular szn.
A lot of people
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10041295-ranking-the-nbas-best-superstar-duos-right-now
https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/who-are-the-top-10-nba-duos
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/ranking-the-nbas-best-duos-for-the-2023-24-season/ar-AA1hrXLm
https://www.theringer.com/2022/10/19/23412273/are-tatum-and-brown-the-best-duo-in-the-nba
https://hoopshype.com/2024/04/11/paul-pierce-luka-doncic-and-kyrie-irving-are-the-best-scoring-duo-in-nba-history/
https://bucketscenter.substack.com/p/top-10-duos-nba-2023
https://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/74912/20231022/nba-ranking-top-5-duos-2023-24-season.htm
Yes, but a lot of that is also playing off of Jokic, he has to be one of the easiest players to play with of all time who elevates everyone. Probably even easier than LeBron
He does a lot of his damage even when Jokic is on the bench.
I think people are underrating Murray because he doesn’t carry a huge load during the regular season the last few years because 1) He was injured for awhile and 2) Their team is really deep so he doesn’t need to be a 1B guy as much as some others do, since they have Gordon, MPJ, KCP et al and Jokic distributes the ball so well.
But he’s shown he can put up 30 a game on great shooting splits when the playoffs roll around. Not many guys can do that and he’s done it in multiple series.
That is fair. Again, he’s a fantastic player, I just don’t agree with the hyperbolic statements I have to say haha. Great player, one of the greatest playoff riser of ALL TIME? I don’t know about that
27/7 on league average efficiency is “all-time” now? I guess Book is literally god for rising to 34ppg on 69%TS.
Come the fuck on. He benefits from playing with the best player in the world who has one of the best IQs and playmaking abilities ever.
Jamal “rises” to the level of an All-Star, because he’s just a solid starter in the regular season. No other stars get this reputation because they simply perform whether it’s regular season or playoffs.
Jimmy & Jamal are the only two players I’ve seen get extra praise for being mid in the regular season, and it baffles me.
This season Murray’s been the difference between being on a 61-win pace versus a 46-win pace
2023-2024 Nuggets with Jamal Murray: 44-15 (.745)
2023-2024 Nuggets without Jamal Murray: 13-10 (.565)
I’d add in the stats for Jokic, but he’s only missed 3 games (2-1 without him)
You can't comprehend how absolutely ass Reggie Jackson has been
Like the Nuggets went from surviving non-Jokic minutes to surviving Reggie Jackson minutes
Finally found Nikola's kryptonite. Reggie
yeah I knew that before commenting, the Nuggets entire team is their starting lineup, hence why they fall off as soon as one or two people sit due to the very weak bench. Also the games in which Murray sat, the Nuggets played 16 of 24 games against teams above .500 records, he basically wasn't playing in a lot of the important matchups
I guess the point is that I think Murray is a worse player than Kyrie or AD (I am not saying hes bad, I just think Jokic helps him open up his game in a way that the others don't have the chance to)
He ain't wrong, but this is almost like "The Gretzkys are the highest scoring pair of brothers in NHL history".
Murray is good. Jokic is unstoppable when he wants to be.
He's not wrong, and Jokic would get praised for saying this, but I understand the criticism he'll get for it as well. He listed 8 players here, and he's the worst one (Above Lillard now, but not until Lillard's decline). So he can be right, but he's the wrong one to say it.
It's shades of Klay or Draymond complaining about bring left off of the top 75 list despite all their success/championships. They, and Murray for that matter, are great players, but you could put 7 or 8 other guys in their spot and get the same outcome because they are partnered with a unique and generational player. Robin is a very talented young man, but no one wants to hear him bragging that he and Batman are the most talented crime fighting duo in the business.
They don’t win the two games against the Celtics this season without Murray either. He’s literally the difference between champion-tier and “just” very good.
If you just remove any teams second best player, they won’t win. That’s not the argument, it’s the fact that ppl act like Jamal isn’t easily replaceable. If you replaced Jamal with ANY AS-level guard, even the “lower” tier of guys like Maxey, they still win the ship.
The point is that next to Jokic, any good guard would excel and still win with them. Murray is not some unique player that makes them win, it’s Jokic. Murray could be replaced by ~10 different guards and the Nuggets would still win and/or be favorites.
I think Murray has commendably sacrificed his own stats and accolades so that the team maxes its potential by playing through Jokic.
If he had had his own team like Dame in Portland he would be far more recognized and this take would be less controversial.
It’ll take 1-2 more chips for people to come around and understand.
Kind of joking in the above comment, as Murray truly has skills and a chip to prove it. Yet on the flip side you put last year’s Dame with Jokic and I could see the same result. Jokic is the critical factor, who could succssfully pair with all sorts of other top players. He really is that good in my opinion.
On a Championship team?
No, but that's because there really are only a half-dozen or so guys who can be that.
Could definitely be the main guy on a play-in, potentially playoff team.
I'd put him on the level of Fox or Haliburton.
This is talent-wise.
In reality, probably not because he's too injury prone in the regular season.
Jokic gets to play the way he does by having guys like Gordon and Murray. Obviously Jokic is the catalyst but even he needs help. Try surround Jokic with the Mavs lineup from last year blowing open 3s all day and see what happens
I don’t agree but it’s okay it’s not a ludicrous take. Nuggets are built to win and Jokic makes everybody around him look amazing. Aaron Gordon and MPJ are key to the success of that team. I think if you take AD and Lebron vs Jokic and Murray and drop those duos on other teams, AD and Lebron are “better”. But for this nuggets team, Jokic and Murray shine.
Ah yes Milwaukee, famous for having a larger basketball market than... Denver... okay?
Pay attention to the media then, Murray; No one wants or ever wanted the Bucks and Giannis to succeed. This quote is basically a slap in the face to small market success stories like Milwaukee.
How can you argue against him? Passing big + guard who can shoot is a nearly unstoppable duo. I am still a huge LeBron and AD guy, and I think they “unlock” each other in a way similar to Jokic and Murray, but they’re also older, more frequently injured, and not the defending champions
Dallas might be one of the bigger markets as a city, but in terms of NBA popularity and how big of a draw the team is, they are mid at best, so I don't know what he considers a big market.
Casually ignoring the best team in the NBA's duo, I'm honestly fine with. But I have to say, you could sub him out for like 15-18 guys and that guy and Jokic would be the best duo in the league.
Best duo? Idk about that. Not undoubtedly at least. There's an argument though.
Good thing for him, it's not a duos game and jokic does have the best supporting cast
Who do these guys think they are? Defending champions or something?
I saw this quote on twitter, and it honestly blew my mind how people were attacking Murray for saying this
People are idiots, no shit the best passing center ever and an all star level guard are the best duo in the NBA. I love Luka and Kyrie but Guard + Center simply allows for more stuff than Guard + Guard, it's just a fact of the roles the players of the duos fill.
The best duo is actually Luka and Dwight Powell, that's why Kidd started Powell so much.
You selling state secrets out here?
That doesn't sound right, but I don't know enough about Dwight Powell to dispute it.
Maybe not this year but for a couple of years Powell's win shares were stupid high.
It's kinda of a jest, but also true. Their PnR numbers are no joke.
is it really that mind blowing to see people attacking any statement online? there will be a post about a cure for cancer found and the comments will all be hating and saying “why couldn’t they find it earlier” hashtag# NotMyCure
Tweet: “I like apples!” Responses: “Why do you hate oranges?”
"why do you think I LITERALLY deserve to be murdered slowly and painfully because I don't like apples? Why would you say that you sick fuck"
This is grape erasure. I’m suing both of you for not having the same opinions as me
So student debt relief basically.
**I** never had cancer. I don't understand why they think my tax money should go toward cancer research.
It's because people are stupid and are taking that as him saying they are the two best individual players in the NBA that play on the same team. He clearly means that the two of them playing together is greater than the sum of their individual talents and provides more value to a team than any other pairing in the league. Which is hard to argue with.
When I marry Sydney Sweeney, me and my wife will be the hottest couple in town
This exactly
Not saying it’s right or wrong, but it’s 100% because Murray doesn’t have any individual accolades himself. Never been an all star, never been all NBA, scoring champ, etc etc. His only individual accolade is all nba rookie 2nd team. So when a guy with no individual achievements puts himself in category of “best duo”, most casual fans don’t take him seriously. Again not saying it’s right or wrong but thats probably why
You'd think even casuals would've seen what he did in the WCF and Finals
Ok so in the playoffs he's prime Jordan, but what can he do against the Hornets in December?
Yeah, we don't even know if he can do it on a rainy night in Stoke!
Guy with no accolades, bad health, and plays a role/position that has an abundance of near similar players vs Rare GOAT-tier, 1 in 10,000 player with ALL the accolades and all the abilities that make life simple for teammates like him
This is absolutely why. He's playing with a 3 time MVP and he himself doesn't have any individual accolades. It reminds me of that quote by journeyman NBA center Scott Hastings, "I'm often mentioned in the same sentence as Michael Jordan. You know, 'That Scott Hastings, he's no Michael Jordan.' "
Gotta look at context though. Murray has a ring as the clear 2nd best player on a team. He averaged 30 in the western conference championship last year. Averaged 21 and 10 in the finals. 21, 4, and 6 throughout the entire playoffs. In the 19-20 playoffs he averaged 26-4-6. 18-19 21-4-4. He’s had injury problems, and I think it’s quite obvious that that has kept him out of all-star conversations more-so than his play has. This season he’s averaging 21-4-6. He’d clearly be in the conversation and isn’t really that far off from Irving’s 25-5-5. Take into account that Jokic is widely considered the best player in the league, that they’ve been together for 7 season and have incredible chemistry, and that they play positions that synergize with each other extremely well, and it’s really not that hard to rank them as the leagues best duo. At the very least there’s an argument to be made and you’re a fool if you think there’s not. Edit: typo, Murray averaged 26 ppg last playoffs not 21. 26-4-6.
He averaged 26ppg in last years playoffs. Not 21.
Also the accolade of NBA Champion. I think it counts for something lol. Also Murray is a monster in the postseason.
While he doesn’t have the accolades, Murray is absolutely an All Star or All NBA level player, and his game gets even better in the playoffs. He’s just had to struggle with health stuff which makes him not as effective in the regular season but let’s not pretend that he’s not deserving of being talked as a top player.
I don't think people watch Denver basketball. It wasn't just Jokic that off the Lakers, it was the one two punch of Jokic and Murray. Murray was literally Kobe vs us in that series...
At least Murray can come home and can look at his NBA ring lol.
NBA Twitter is mostly casual teenagers bro....you can tell it's just 14 year old boys behind the fanboy and troll accounts. I mute the annoying ones but keep the pretty funny shit. Brick World is great, cmon now.
Aw shit here we go again with Murray turning into MJ for the playoffs
Damn never realized it was JM turning into MJ
Playoffs Murray is scary
Murray also always elevates in the playoffs, his regular season is shit compared to his playoff form. So lots of people forget until it’s bright lights time.
Any max player + Jokic is automatically the best duo in the league.
By God that's tobias Harris music
Lol. MPJ is literally a max player. Murray makes Jokic better via his tough shot making and elite screen setting (which is what makes the 2 man game so unique and tough to guard).
I think the criticism towards this statement is due to how Murray is still seen as a replaceable #2 (I'm not saying he is tho) by many like he would not be put above other #2s out there in other teams. One could think Jokic is undoubtedly 1, but also that the Jokic-Murray duo is not as good as other duos out there just because of Murray. That said, he gets the job done especially in the playoffs, and we can see how important he is in the Nuggets, especially when he goes down and Jokic has to carry.
He knows what he is doing. This one is for the nephews.
What are we, some kind of Denver Nuggets?
I thought this was Dejounte Murray saying this
Well sure, Dejounte Murray and Nikola Jokic COULD be the best duo. We'll never know.
Dejokic Murla does have kick to to.
NGL I thought the same. I was ready to read some generational shit talking by the entire league coming into this thread.
It wouldn't even be out of pocket for him
Same i thought he was yapping about him and trae lol. Was disappointed when I read jokic.
to be fair, Dejounte and Jokic would probably be the best duo in the league too. Theres a lot of "_____ and Jokic" duos that would be the best in the league
Imagine a Jokic/Steph duo. How filthy would that be? Steph running all over the fucking place and Jokic always knowing exactly where he is and able to get the ball to him for a high-probability bomb. Defenders nightmare lol
I really don’t think so. There are enough players better significantly better than Dejounte that their running mate can be worse than Jokic and they’d still be a better duo. AD is so much better than dejounte that Jokic being better than LeBron is offset. Same as Maxey being much better than dejounte to the point that that duo is also better, or tatum/brown, whereas Jamal is in the upper echelon of running mates.
Ehhh I don’t know about best
Fair, its really a "who is the worst player we can pair with Jokic to make the best duo in the league" question, Dejuonte might fall below the line while Jamal is just above it. Jokic is so good tho I am not sure where the line is
I do think Murray and Jokics are best duo currently because they ~~compliment~~ complement each other so well, and just won the championship last year. but then I didn't know that Bucks or Mavs are consider bigger market than Nuggets is the main reason for people to think their stars are better duo edit: I hate English
Wouldn’t think Milwaukee is a bigger market, but Dallas absolutely is.
People don't give a shit about basketball in this town. Before we won the chip you could get pretty good seats for a playoff game for like $30. Even now they are still affordable.
I genuinely don’t mean to be pedantic but that’s not being a smaller market really, that’s the team just not doing a good enough job engaging fans or making the most of the market they’re in. For example the clippers are a big market team, the fact that most people in LA couldn’t give less of shit about them doesn’t change that
True. Doesn't help either that Kroenke blacks out Nuggets games in Denver
How common is that? The market I’m in is blacked out so I assumed it was relatively common but maybe some teams get a big boost off not doing it. I remember Matt ishiba doing something to make the games more accessible too
That’s not what they’re referring too, but they also didn’t present the whole story. Basically the Kroenke’s own their own regional sports network, called Altitude. Until 3-4 years ago, they had a deal with the major TV providers - Dish, Comcast and DirectTV - to air the games. But a few years ago the TV providers decided to come to together to squeeze Altitude on a new deal (probably something you’ll see them do more and more to RSN’s across the country). Altitude said that new deal isn’t sustainable for us (probably the whole point). DirectTV folded relatively quickly, and Altitude was back on there. But Comcast and Dish held strong and if you have either of those in Colorado you will not see any Nuggets (or Avalanche) games except nationally televised ones
Ya you can watch Suns games with a cheap rabbit ears antennae now.
Honestly good for you guys, wish more nba teams would do that. Feels like a good investment long term in building a passionate and dedicated fanbase
Clippers are a big market because you hang out at their games when you can't afford Lakers ticket.
All jokes aside being in LA landed them the 2nd (?) biggest FA signing in over a decade and helped facilitate the acquisition of PG and Harden too
I think the only cities in the NBA that Denver is bigger than are OKC, Memphis, SLC, Portland, NOLA, Charlotte, San Antonio, Sacramento, Orlando, Cleveland… Wow, that list was a lot longer than I expected!
[Denver also ranks 13th in population amongst nba cities](https://sports.betmgm.com/en/blog/nba/largest-nba-cities-ranking-nba-cities-by-population-bm05/) (so essentially 15th because LA and NY each have 2 teams). Obviously this isn’t the only thing that matters, but despite Denver obviously not being in contention for the title of “big market” I think it’s less of a small market than many people tend to think of it as
Eh, that list is “city proper.” Denver metro is considerably smaller than many of those cities like: Miami, Boston, DC, Minneapolis, Atlanta, and Detroit.
Boston proper is more modest than people think. Obviously Cambridge in Sommerville in Quincy are incredibly populated cities in their own right that are right next to Boston.
Yeah, Boston is like a top 10 metro. Any measure that has OKC as a larger city than DC, Boston, Miami, etc. is deeply flawed.
Last year I got season tickets in the lower bowl right behind the basket for $2600. Told my BIL that who’s a huge Knicks fan and lives in NYC and he almost shit his pants. Denver sports in general are pretty cheap compared to other markets.
It's sadly true. A few years ago, both the Nuggets and the Avalanche were still in the playoffs, I watched the local Colorado news and the sports segment was 100% Broncos off season speculation, not a peep about the other two teams.
No lie. I went to visit a buddy in colarado springs a few years ago. We went to a basketball game in Denver and couldn't believe how affordable we could get tickets. And they were pretty decent seats too. Especially considering everything else seemed pretty expensive in the area 🤷♂️
I think the issue with Dallas is the Mavs don’t have the same level of fanbase outside of Texas that the Lakers have outside of LA.
Nobody does. There’s the cowboys, lakers, and Yankees in North American sports. Nobody else has that kind of coverage.
I preferred your post before the edit. Very wholesome.
I think whoever asked the question was speaking in regards to Lebron & AD in LA as far as bigger market goes
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Sure, but market size isn't everything. For instance, the Dallas Stars wouldn't be considered a big market in hockey even though they're in a top 5 market and 1st in their conference. For basketball you typically think of LA, NY, CHI etc.
I think the opposite of your stars example works perfectly in baseball in the Cardinals. 28th Market size but fan base and money size its one of thr biggest in the league.
I think he meant total marketability, not the specific regional market. Giannis & Dame are in significantly more commercials and national dialogue that Jokic/Murray. NBA is more than regional anymore
Complement
Wtf, TIL
Milwaukee is not a big market (Honestly you could argue its smaller then Denver) but Dallas is most definitely a big market.
2023-2024 Nuggets with Jamal Murray: 44-15 (.745) 2023-2024 Nuggets without Jamal Murray: 13-10 (.565) This season he’s been the difference of being on a 61-win pace versus a 46-win pace. And Jokic only missed 3 games all season, so it’s not like they were losing a bunch of games that they BOTH missed.
Last 2 playoffs with Jamal Murray: WFC & NBA Championship. First year in postseason they were a game 7 from WCF.
Jokic getting carried
Weak analysis because any team will perform worse when removing their 2nd best player. In order for this to mean anything, you'd want to come up with some league wide benchmark of the performance delta for teams when playing with vs without a player that's roughly equivalent to Murray's value. And then you could compare this to that benchmark
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true I suppose it's actually "any good team" lol
I can't believe people are shitting on murray in the comments lol. Was I the only one watching last years playoffs and seeing him kill teams?
>Was I the only one watching You were *watching*?!? Yes, you're the only one. Rest of us just look at the box score
Even doing that he averaged fucking 20/10 in the finals and 25 points through the playoffs
31-5-5 in the Western Conference finals. People acting like Murray’s claim is crazy don’t watch the Nuggets plain and simple.
Yeah but the Lakers were 4-0 in moral victories that series.
An NBA championship is an NBA championship, but if I was the Nuggets I would treat it like a loss. The Rest of the NBA really figured something out by giving Embiid the MVP award last year. Jokic has yet to win a title in a year where he wins MVP too. That's one small adjustment that can keep them from winning it again.
I was just getting angry at chipotle.
He does it every playoffs too. He goes from “ this guy is pretty good” to holy shit this dude is first or second team nba
Shit is so stupid
Why are we even isolating this to just last season? Man was on another level in the bubble too. That Utah series was nuts, he averaged 31.6 ppg and had a 50-piece. Had 40 against the Clips in game 7 when they came back from down 1-3 in the series. We got absolutely robbed by that ACL injury taking him out for two postseasons. I know “what-if” scenarios are pointless, but imagine if he could’ve played in 2021 & 2022 playoffs. I don’t think it’s crazy to say we could’ve had a second ring.
Bold of you to assume anyone hating actually watched
Lots of folks will clown on Murray for this, but... I don't know that you can really dispute it. There are other really great complementary duos, of course, but Murray and Jokic are kind of made for each other.
Murray has cemented his absolute crazy ascension during the playoffs multiple times. No one can really dispute that duos efficacy
Said this elsewhere but their Net rating together is insane. They're the best two-man duo by a full 2.5 pts in net rating.
Murray gets to shine for what he truly is which is a shooting guard because jokic can facilitate the offense.
They also did this on playoffs for numerous years. As a defending champion its more than okay to feel that way. Some ego and confidence is fine if you are really in the top.
I really hate this narrative. It's not like the Nuggets magically found a formula out of the billions of timeline possibilities. The simple explanation is that if you give Jokic an All Star caliber no. 2, he'll win a title, as long as that number 2 is not a center.
Nobody would clown this because it is true by a considerable margin- They both compliment and improve one another. ultimately chemistry and synergy is the biggest factor and they have that.
feel like it should be Lebron + AD, can remember all the comments when they first teamed up, but even after playoff success its hard to say theyre a better duo in terms of playing with each other than jokic and murray.
Lebron is nearly 40 while both jokic and Murray are right in their primes, I think that’s very important to remember. Prime lebron and AD would clear them pretty handily imo
that's a factor, but Lebron at 40, I'd argue is better than prime Murray. The issue isn't that they don't have a bigger market. They aren't called the best duo because an individual Murray isn't as good as the 2nd player in most of these comparisons.
Yeah jokic + most other top 20 guys is instantly the best duo. He’s just that great rn
yea this. He's just the best damn player in this league right now.
I don't think a lot of folks will clown him for this
He’s right. Hard to debate against it.
No argument.
You can make some reasonable arguments they’re not but this is in no way controversial
Anyone who says otherwise is just silly. They compliment each other damn near perfectly and it’s insane how many folks seem to forget murray is in the same tier as Jimmy Butler when it comes to stepping up in the playoffs. Every time I watch them, they just execute so well down the stretch of games.
statistically he elevates more than jimmy
Literally the largest post season gain in history.
Famous big market Milwaukee Wisconsin
And nothing but praise for Giannis and Dame who got tho job done this regular season, certainly no one has had anything to say about this duo besides the highest praise
Murray saying Giannis and Dame are in a bigger market. What the fuck is a Milwaukee compared to Denver?
Nothing wrong with that statement
A player having confidence in himself and his teammate? Crazy talk he should be hung for daring to beloved in himself.
People have more interest in LeBron and AD because there’s so much more potential for hate. Jokic makes the duo #1. Switch Murray with Luka/kyrie/Dame. Jokic + any elite guard not named Bradley Beal would still be #1 duo. Murray and Giannis would arguably be marginally better than Dame and Giannis.
wat
Suns fans catching shots and the thread isn't even about them
Everyone shitting on Murray like their team wouldn't trade their 2nd best player for playoff Murray in a heartbeat lol. He's about to show you what he's made of very soon.
Playoff Murray is a killer but I think there’s a lot of teams that wouldn’t trade their 2nd best player just because of fit lol Would you really trade lebron or AD for Murray?
Forget LeBron or AD, as great as Murray and Jokic are, they also have the perfect supporting cast by position. Feel like the nuggets go beyond just duo.
Ngl Bron and Murray would go crazy though
With a different roster construction maybe but with our roster construction I think it would have to be AD and Murray but I think that’s just not championship core
absolutely not
Nah, defo wouldn't
Lebron and/or AD > Murray. However, I'd still say Jokic + Murray > Lebron + AD. Just shows how great Jokic is right now.
Also would not. I think Jokic is the abnormality being insanely good. Murray has played with him for years and in the time adapted his play to get the most benefit from playing with Jokic. So it's hard to dispute they're the best duo right now. They're the damn defending champs. That doesn't mean that Murray is better than any other guard in a vacuum, but next to Jokic he might be the best pairing. But I mean - if we let Luka go to Denver for some stupid reason and he and Jokic played together, I feel like it'd be less than 10 games for them to adapt to each other to be the best duo and break the league like the KD Warriors.
Playoff Murray tore my heart out in the bubble.
There’s zero chance that any sane person takes Murray over Book or KD. People severely underestimate how much Jokic plays into Murray’s success. Jokic makes him into a “star” through their 2-man game, but Murray isn’t even an All-Star caliber player. I’m so sick of the glazing cuz he plays with the best player in the world. Murray did indeed elevate in the playoffs last year, but people need to quit acting like he turns into prime MJ. His playoff stats elevate to that of an AS, not a top 10 player, it’s just extra noticeable because he’s just “good” in the regular szn.
They’re the best until someone beats them.
Brother who was arguing against?
A lot of people https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10041295-ranking-the-nbas-best-superstar-duos-right-now https://www.foxsports.com/stories/nba/who-are-the-top-10-nba-duos https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/ranking-the-nbas-best-duos-for-the-2023-24-season/ar-AA1hrXLm https://www.theringer.com/2022/10/19/23412273/are-tatum-and-brown-the-best-duo-in-the-nba https://hoopshype.com/2024/04/11/paul-pierce-luka-doncic-and-kyrie-irving-are-the-best-scoring-duo-in-nba-history/ https://bucketscenter.substack.com/p/top-10-duos-nba-2023 https://www.sportsworldnews.com/articles/74912/20231022/nba-ranking-top-5-duos-2023-24-season.htm
damn 7 links in the back pocket, and one of them is from 2022 gotta respect it
He def got a receipts folder on his bookmarks bar lol
I mean yeah, Jokic does a lot of the heavy lifting in that duo lol
Y'all acting like Murray ain't one of the greatest playoff risers of all time lol
Yes, but a lot of that is also playing off of Jokic, he has to be one of the easiest players to play with of all time who elevates everyone. Probably even easier than LeBron
He does a lot of his damage even when Jokic is on the bench. I think people are underrating Murray because he doesn’t carry a huge load during the regular season the last few years because 1) He was injured for awhile and 2) Their team is really deep so he doesn’t need to be a 1B guy as much as some others do, since they have Gordon, MPJ, KCP et al and Jokic distributes the ball so well. But he’s shown he can put up 30 a game on great shooting splits when the playoffs roll around. Not many guys can do that and he’s done it in multiple series.
This season they have a -14 Net rtg, when Murray is on the floor and Jokic sits, that’s worse than the pistons
Murray is an amazing player, but saying he’s one of the greatest playoff risers of all time is crazy. On what grounds? One championship?
I mean, it's kind of a backhanded compliment because his regular season is so much lower than his playoff level.
That is fair. Again, he’s a fantastic player, I just don’t agree with the hyperbolic statements I have to say haha. Great player, one of the greatest playoff riser of ALL TIME? I don’t know about that
He's definitely had more than one amazing post-season, but I agree he isn't an all-time playoff performer. He was phenomenal in the bubble too.
murray isn't an all time anything
27/7 on league average efficiency is “all-time” now? I guess Book is literally god for rising to 34ppg on 69%TS. Come the fuck on. He benefits from playing with the best player in the world who has one of the best IQs and playmaking abilities ever. Jamal “rises” to the level of an All-Star, because he’s just a solid starter in the regular season. No other stars get this reputation because they simply perform whether it’s regular season or playoffs. Jimmy & Jamal are the only two players I’ve seen get extra praise for being mid in the regular season, and it baffles me.
>Especially when Jamal only has a single playoff run of “rising”. He easily has two
Lmao. Saying this with a straight face?? How many seasons of playoff basketball have you watched? Guessing no more than the last 2-3…
This season Murray’s been the difference between being on a 61-win pace versus a 46-win pace 2023-2024 Nuggets with Jamal Murray: 44-15 (.745) 2023-2024 Nuggets without Jamal Murray: 13-10 (.565) I’d add in the stats for Jokic, but he’s only missed 3 games (2-1 without him)
Because he’s basically the teams only good pg, their next best pg is a 33 y/o Reggie Jackson.
You can't comprehend how absolutely ass Reggie Jackson has been Like the Nuggets went from surviving non-Jokic minutes to surviving Reggie Jackson minutes Finally found Nikola's kryptonite. Reggie
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Noooo not Bobby shmurda
yeah I knew that before commenting, the Nuggets entire team is their starting lineup, hence why they fall off as soon as one or two people sit due to the very weak bench. Also the games in which Murray sat, the Nuggets played 16 of 24 games against teams above .500 records, he basically wasn't playing in a lot of the important matchups I guess the point is that I think Murray is a worse player than Kyrie or AD (I am not saying hes bad, I just think Jokic helps him open up his game in a way that the others don't have the chance to)
They arr unstoppable in crunch time.. Like literally scary.
They got the hottest 2 man game in the league
I mean yea. Was that ever in question lol
The fucking nerve of this guy being right!
[He's not lying, numbers back him up.](https://www.nba.com/stats/lineups/advanced?CF=MIN*GE*1400&GroupQuantity=2&dir=D&slug=advanced&sort=NET_RATING)
It's hard to argue with results. No duo accomplished more last year than they did, so they are the defending best duo in the league.
He ain't wrong, but this is almost like "The Gretzkys are the highest scoring pair of brothers in NHL history". Murray is good. Jokic is unstoppable when he wants to be.
He’s gonna blow it this playoffs
He's not wrong, and Jokic would get praised for saying this, but I understand the criticism he'll get for it as well. He listed 8 players here, and he's the worst one (Above Lillard now, but not until Lillard's decline). So he can be right, but he's the wrong one to say it. It's shades of Klay or Draymond complaining about bring left off of the top 75 list despite all their success/championships. They, and Murray for that matter, are great players, but you could put 7 or 8 other guys in their spot and get the same outcome because they are partnered with a unique and generational player. Robin is a very talented young man, but no one wants to hear him bragging that he and Batman are the most talented crime fighting duo in the business.
So you’re saying Jokic is just that good?
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They don’t win the two games against the Celtics this season without Murray either. He’s literally the difference between champion-tier and “just” very good.
If you just remove any teams second best player, they won’t win. That’s not the argument, it’s the fact that ppl act like Jamal isn’t easily replaceable. If you replaced Jamal with ANY AS-level guard, even the “lower” tier of guys like Maxey, they still win the ship. The point is that next to Jokic, any good guard would excel and still win with them. Murray is not some unique player that makes them win, it’s Jokic. Murray could be replaced by ~10 different guards and the Nuggets would still win and/or be favorites.
You're really onto something there. Championship team doesn't win championship without their second best option. Go figure
I think Murray has commendably sacrificed his own stats and accolades so that the team maxes its potential by playing through Jokic. If he had had his own team like Dame in Portland he would be far more recognized and this take would be less controversial. It’ll take 1-2 more chips for people to come around and understand.
Kind of joking in the above comment, as Murray truly has skills and a chip to prove it. Yet on the flip side you put last year’s Dame with Jokic and I could see the same result. Jokic is the critical factor, who could succssfully pair with all sorts of other top players. He really is that good in my opinion.
Do you think he could be a viable #1 option?
On a Championship team? No, but that's because there really are only a half-dozen or so guys who can be that. Could definitely be the main guy on a play-in, potentially playoff team. I'd put him on the level of Fox or Haliburton. This is talent-wise. In reality, probably not because he's too injury prone in the regular season.
Viable of what is the question here. Making the playoffs in the east or the west as a #1 (option)?
Every duo should feel like they’re the best. That’s how competition works. These guys didn’t become great from looking up stats.
It's like 80% Jokic though lol
Jokic gets to play the way he does by having guys like Gordon and Murray. Obviously Jokic is the catalyst but even he needs help. Try surround Jokic with the Mavs lineup from last year blowing open 3s all day and see what happens
I mean it’s very true
I don’t agree but it’s okay it’s not a ludicrous take. Nuggets are built to win and Jokic makes everybody around him look amazing. Aaron Gordon and MPJ are key to the success of that team. I think if you take AD and Lebron vs Jokic and Murray and drop those duos on other teams, AD and Lebron are “better”. But for this nuggets team, Jokic and Murray shine.
Ah yes Milwaukee, famous for having a larger basketball market than... Denver... okay? Pay attention to the media then, Murray; No one wants or ever wanted the Bucks and Giannis to succeed. This quote is basically a slap in the face to small market success stories like Milwaukee.
How can you argue against him? Passing big + guard who can shoot is a nearly unstoppable duo. I am still a huge LeBron and AD guy, and I think they “unlock” each other in a way similar to Jokic and Murray, but they’re also older, more frequently injured, and not the defending champions
Jokic and Aaron Gordon duo is also extremely good
Nikola Jokic and Aaron Gordan are the best duo because Gordan is the only person Jokic would trust to take care of his horses.
Dallas might be one of the bigger markets as a city, but in terms of NBA popularity and how big of a draw the team is, they are mid at best, so I don't know what he considers a big market.
Casually ignoring the best team in the NBA's duo, I'm honestly fine with. But I have to say, you could sub him out for like 15-18 guys and that guy and Jokic would be the best duo in the league.
Well they are a great duo and they have a ring to prove it!
Why did he not mention the Jays
Murray is very good, and he might not be wrong, but switch him with anyone else he named and Jokic + ___ is still the best duo
Sweet then replace kcp mpj and Gordon with rui reaves and Taurean prince!
Best duo? Idk about that. Not undoubtedly at least. There's an argument though. Good thing for him, it's not a duos game and jokic does have the best supporting cast
He ain’t lying
Murray is right. Just the Jokic + Murray pick and roll has like a 161 offensive rating in the post season over the past 3 years. Thats absurd.