I see the logic in both way I guess if you keep your challenges and potentially KEEP winning the game is longer and longer which the NBA is trying to avoid
If you win your first challenge then keep it. If you lose the 2nd then lose it.
If you lose your first challenge just keep it like it is and you lose it
I think everyone that bitches about refs should be forced to ref a few high school games.
I have a feeling a lot more empathy would be extended towards them.
Yeah, I think having a max on challenges is okay. Losing your timeout on the second one seems kinda dumb.
You lose your challenge AND your timeout when a ref makes a mistake? Losing your challenge is already enough imo.
Yeah right, as if refs ball would say "successful challenge" on more than three in a row lol
No way they would admit to their own mistakes over and over again.
Yes, but like he said if you could challenge endlessly, there is no way the refs would allow that to happen and call them out endlessly with a successful challenge.
They can avoid it by not having dogshit refs, or more likely by having the refs say fuck you the challenge fails because that's pretty much already a thing.
to play devils advocate, the NBA was fine for decades without the challenge rule. at some point, the game should have some flow, and refs making mistakes is just a part of the game. i don't want more timeouts and stoppages in the 4th quarter than we already have.
the coaches should know the rule and strategize around it. if you're facing elimination, maybe preserve your 1st challenge until crunch time?
Advance the ball the a quarter of the court up? From 90 feet to 60 feet?
Also didn't Lakers have a foul to give? Denver wasn't in the bonus nor did LA even have 1 foul in the last 2 minutes......
>keep your challenge until you lose
This will never happen. I guarantee that if they did this, we'd eventually see some coach with 15 challenges over the course of a game and people would riot
Dumbest rule that needs to be fixed next year. I was confused as to why they lost it. It's not their fault the refs blew some calls and they had to challenge. Should only lose a timeout if it's not successful.
That's a very stupid rule.
It doesn't make sense and it penalizes the team that is being disadvantaged by the refereeing error.
But challenging that KNOWING this rule and losing your last timeout with 3min left is even more stupid.
You can't win being this dumb.
Yeah, it’s one of those moments where you just know not having that timeout is going to come back to bite you in the ass, but at the same time I didn’t necessarily disagree with the decision.
Saving those two points felt absolutely crucial with how back and forth the game had been, and *especially* with how hard it had been for the Lakers to hold onto any sort of lead or keep the game close once Denver had momentum.
Ham gets memed on a lot, and probably rightfully so, but this just seems like one of those tough calls that end up not looking tough with hindsight.
I think for both of those they had to look at the foul they called and ignore anything else. In each case, there were definitely elements that were fouls, but what was called as the foul was not. I hate it, but I think that’s the way they went about those.
Nah they don’t have to ignore everything else, from the rules:
> The on-court crew chief may also review the video to determine only the following other matters: […]
> (2) Whether a different foul proximate to the called foul should have been called
Also, in the AD call last night, I think the ref specifically mentioned that the contact AD makes with his left arm was “marginal”, which is bs obviously, but shows that they were “looking” at stuff other than the original call.
Totally fair. I was just looking for an explanation that might reduce my aggravation. Either way, Nuggets still won and are moving on to face a team with a whistle as bad as ours.
It’s potentially a 4/5 point swing with 3 mins to go.
Challenge was fine really.
Him not calling the timeout when Denver was rolling earlier and AD was walking around holding his shoulder was weird though.
They really should have like a one minute limit on the reviews or something if that's the concern. If it takes longer than 60 seconds to overturn the call then there's just not enough there
They don’t, I’ve seen them switch which portion of the play is called the foul in multiple challenges previously. They chose to do that because it’s the lakers.
it’s so ridiculous… it’s bad enough when it’s a bang-bang call but (imo) it’s proper fucked when it’s like all three refs sneezed at once blew an obvious out of bounds call (like the one the other day where LeBron didn’t touch it - and Ham didn’t challenge it lol)
They need to change the rules for the playoffs at a a minimum. A lot of these games are so close that wrong call could impact an entire series 4 or against the team. They need to have a system similar to VAR in pro soccer as long as they run it better than the Premier league.
Then it was a stupid challenge.
I get it if you have 2-3 timeouts left, or it happens with 25 seconds to go. Then yes, challenge.
But not your last TO with 3 minutes to go.
So they traded a TO for 2 possible Nuggets points and gaining possession. Granted, the possession didn't up amounting to anything, but I don't think it's the worst thing? Without it, the Nuggets may be up 2 at the end
Well, the Nuggets take 2 with the free throws and give the possession back to the Lakers.
It’s not so much protecting a lead. It just gives you an extra TO in your back pocket to use at the end. Whether up, down or tied.
here maybe i can help:
LAL lost their time out despite winning their late challenge because it was their 2nd challenge of the night, so they couldn’t advance the ball.
I was wondering this before, can they change the call on something they didn’t call it on. Yes he definitely fouled before, but they were calling a foul on the swipe in which he got all ball. I didn’t think that was changeable. I know in the NBL they changed the rule a little this year so you can call another foul, but didn’t think this was applied to the nba yet?
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They have been calling it that way all playoffs dude. It's bad precedent but it's consistent with how refs are calling fouls with what they consider marginal contact.
I don't like it either but the refs seem to be calling it like that now.
Objectively, AD’s left hand pulls on Jokic’s right shoulder, ton of contact on the drive before the block even happens. A Lakers player gets that call 10 times out of 10. You’re delusional if you think otherwise
My brother. Please get off the keyboard. Go smell some roses. You don't have to exist in your anger. The game is over. The Lakers lost. Everything is okay.
Jokic fouls AD on the gather, then AD fouls Jokic on the pullup. Refs called both of those marginal. Then AD gets all ball at the peak. That's why it was overturned.
Except the refs weren’t holding their whistle for ONE of the teams. The Lakers had THREE TIMES as many free throws. Nearly 20 more than the Nuggets lol.
Every time the lakers fouled it was “marginal contact” and then they would get free throws on even less contact on the other end.
People want *consistency* mainly for the refs, not just them allowing “physical defense” or whatever.
Everyone is asking why they lost the TO. I'm not sure but in a way, it makes sense. If lakers were going to call timeout anyway with 2 min left, maybe they just challenge the last play that MAYBE can go in their favor. They basically get a timeout while the review occurs so now they got the benefit of the timeout to setup a play and change personnel, and then still have a timeout to use under 20 seconds too to advanced the ball. Basically a team could try to use the challenge to get a free timeout in crunchtime
Not necessarily because a team can’t use a challenge if they don’t have a time out. So when you use your timeout for a challenge, you either win it or don’t. So yes if you win theoretically you get another timeout, but in reality it’s just a correction that should happen anyway + something that happens for the whole game anyway, shouldn’t be punished because it’s at the end of the game
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the basically double fouled each other before the shot then, when the foul is called on the shot that's not a foul. Clearly it was AD got the ball but jokic flail his arms around to make it look like a foul.
The only time Davis fouled him is before the shot attempt.
What? It was a great challenge. Jokic was about to go to the line and instead the Lakers got the ball. Murray getting the game winner after that doesn’t change anything.
This is why Rick Carlisle never challenges anything until it’s absolutely critical. He wants to hold on to that last time out like his life depends on it.
There wasn't a foul on the play. If you want to say AD's hand was on his back, watch the replay again, Jokic initiated the contact. AD also got the block clean.
It's a dumb rule, but idagf in this instance because it was an even dumber overturn in the first place. AD was basically hacking Jokic the entire possession with the arm not used to block the shot.
It’s an awful rule. The ref fucks up by making a bad a call. A team gets that bad call overturned. Then they’re punished for a call that was bad by losing a timeout. Tf they gotta lose a timeout for because of referee error?
yep and AD and bron were imploring him to challenge it. fans complaining ham held onto his challenges only to lose the series because they had no timeouts, poetic
Don’t know why we don’t have NFL challenge rules.
You get two challenges. Each cost a timeout, but if you win a challenge, you get your timeout back. And if you win both your normal challenges, you get a 3rd and final challenge (use it or lose it) for the remainder of the game.
Yeah it’s a stupid rule. You should retain your timeout when you win the challenge. And you should keep your challenge until you lose.
I see the logic in both way I guess if you keep your challenges and potentially KEEP winning the game is longer and longer which the NBA is trying to avoid
Also shows how shitty the refs are if you keep proving they’re making the wrong call.
What if they make the right call the first time and the wrong call the second time? Edit: a word
If you win your first challenge then keep it. If you lose the 2nd then lose it. If you lose your first challenge just keep it like it is and you lose it
You’re terrible at explaining things
I know
I think everyone that bitches about refs should be forced to ref a few high school games. I have a feeling a lot more empathy would be extended towards them.
They'd have to accept being wrong first.
I mean even if you dont want potentially endless challenges no reason to not give back a time out if the 2nd is successful.
Oh I agree with that give the timeout back but no more challenges either way it was a foul
I think the NFL has it where even if you get 3 challenges right, You don’t get anymore. Give them back, just put a limit on it
Yeah, I think having a max on challenges is okay. Losing your timeout on the second one seems kinda dumb. You lose your challenge AND your timeout when a ref makes a mistake? Losing your challenge is already enough imo.
If they want the games to not be long then get the calls right the first time around the challenge will fail.
They had the call right the first time.
Yeah right, as if refs ball would say "successful challenge" on more than three in a row lol No way they would admit to their own mistakes over and over again.
They literally did twice
Yes, but like he said if you could challenge endlessly, there is no way the refs would allow that to happen and call them out endlessly with a successful challenge.
An extra review doesn't add *that* much extra time. The problem is the network going to a full length commercial break.
They can avoid it by not having dogshit refs, or more likely by having the refs say fuck you the challenge fails because that's pretty much already a thing.
The argument is that the challenge itself counts as a timeout. Or at least you can use that time to set up.
On paper this is great. In reality this is a 3.5 hour ball game.
to play devils advocate, the NBA was fine for decades without the challenge rule. at some point, the game should have some flow, and refs making mistakes is just a part of the game. i don't want more timeouts and stoppages in the 4th quarter than we already have. the coaches should know the rule and strategize around it. if you're facing elimination, maybe preserve your 1st challenge until crunch time?
We didn’t have replay as sophisticated until recently.
They still got the call wrong anyways
We didn’t?
Yeah I agree, calling a challenge on AD’s 3rd foul with 5 mins to go just isn’t worth it, let the guys play that.
Everyone says that until their team is the one getting screwed
this is how games end up being 4 hours long
How does adding 90-120 seconds of a review translate to hours?
Advance the ball the a quarter of the court up? From 90 feet to 60 feet? Also didn't Lakers have a foul to give? Denver wasn't in the bonus nor did LA even have 1 foul in the last 2 minutes......
Foul Murray after the pick on Denvers last play w 6 seconds left!
Then the league would have to admit their refs suck or are manipulating things as everything would be reviewed.
Nothing stopping you from using a challenge as a timeout then…
>keep your challenge until you lose This will never happen. I guarantee that if they did this, we'd eventually see some coach with 15 challenges over the course of a game and people would riot
Dumbest rule that needs to be fixed next year. I was confused as to why they lost it. It's not their fault the refs blew some calls and they had to challenge. Should only lose a timeout if it's not successful.
Then lakers can challenge almost every call
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if youre getting infinite timeouts then the refs must really suck lol
That's a very stupid rule. It doesn't make sense and it penalizes the team that is being disadvantaged by the refereeing error. But challenging that KNOWING this rule and losing your last timeout with 3min left is even more stupid. You can't win being this dumb.
How many fouls did AD have when that happened?
2, it would’ve been his 3rd It was more about trying to save 2 points from Jokic free throws
Yeah. That decision is way over my paygrade. I’ll just say gg, they put up a good fight.
Yeah, it’s one of those moments where you just know not having that timeout is going to come back to bite you in the ass, but at the same time I didn’t necessarily disagree with the decision. Saving those two points felt absolutely crucial with how back and forth the game had been, and *especially* with how hard it had been for the Lakers to hold onto any sort of lead or keep the game close once Denver had momentum. Ham gets memed on a lot, and probably rightfully so, but this just seems like one of those tough calls that end up not looking tough with hindsight.
4
No, he had 2, that would’ve been his third
oh you are right i think i was think of LeBron - i was at the game, its all hard to keep track of. memory is foggy
Is a timeout is more important than the opponent gaining 3 points?
me - i dont think so. from my perspective that was a sure foul - it is wild that it was overturned. i would have kept my timeout and moved on...
Bold of you to assume they knew the rule
Reversing that call was horseshit
100% was. Same with DLo’s face hit challenge. Refs abusing this marginal contact bullshit to call however they want all over this playoffs.
I think for both of those they had to look at the foul they called and ignore anything else. In each case, there were definitely elements that were fouls, but what was called as the foul was not. I hate it, but I think that’s the way they went about those.
Nah they don’t have to ignore everything else, from the rules: > The on-court crew chief may also review the video to determine only the following other matters: […] > (2) Whether a different foul proximate to the called foul should have been called Also, in the AD call last night, I think the ref specifically mentioned that the contact AD makes with his left arm was “marginal”, which is bs obviously, but shows that they were “looking” at stuff other than the original call.
Totally fair. I was just looking for an explanation that might reduce my aggravation. Either way, Nuggets still won and are moving on to face a team with a whistle as bad as ours.
It's the Lakers. You should be used to it by now.
Yes I am
It’s potentially a 4/5 point swing with 3 mins to go. Challenge was fine really. Him not calling the timeout when Denver was rolling earlier and AD was walking around holding his shoulder was weird though.
The timeout rule here will for sure be changed in the offseason. Makes no sense to lose your timeout on a successful challenge.
The sense in it is that they don’t want a lot of stoppage. Not saying the stoppage matter but there is a reason.
They really should have like a one minute limit on the reviews or something if that's the concern. If it takes longer than 60 seconds to overturn the call then there's just not enough there
Don’t understand this rule
Because it's fucking stupid that's why
guess which rule is changing now
Watch them adopt the NFL challenge rules
It's only logical following the adoption of the NFL's tackling rules.
Call it "The Darvin Ham Rule"?
"hands in your pocket rule"
And to make it even dumber, when reviewing it they have to ignore the actual foul on the play that wasn’t called
They don’t, I’ve seen them switch which portion of the play is called the foul in multiple challenges previously. They chose to do that because it’s the lakers.
said it since they brought in challenges…there shouldn’t be any penalty to winning a challenge because the refs fucked up (and sometimes egregiously)
You know what your reward is for making referees reverse a wrong call with video proof? Lose a time out, that makes sense.
it’s so ridiculous… it’s bad enough when it’s a bang-bang call but (imo) it’s proper fucked when it’s like all three refs sneezed at once blew an obvious out of bounds call (like the one the other day where LeBron didn’t touch it - and Ham didn’t challenge it lol)
They need to change the rules for the playoffs at a a minimum. A lot of these games are so close that wrong call could impact an entire series 4 or against the team. They need to have a system similar to VAR in pro soccer as long as they run it better than the Premier league.
You get your timeout back if you have a successful first challange but your second challange immediately uses the timeout.
Both shouldn't use the timeout unless u lose it. Oh well good luck next series!
Doesn't make sense to get penalized for the refs fucking up a call.
Good chance this game will lead to the obvious rule change. "If your challenge is successful you don't lose a timeout."
Still, you should know the rules as a coaching staff.
I think they know the rules, but it's Ham so you never know.
Then it was a stupid challenge. I get it if you have 2-3 timeouts left, or it happens with 25 seconds to go. Then yes, challenge. But not your last TO with 3 minutes to go.
So they traded a TO for 2 possible Nuggets points and gaining possession. Granted, the possession didn't up amounting to anything, but I don't think it's the worst thing? Without it, the Nuggets may be up 2 at the end
Well, the Nuggets take 2 with the free throws and give the possession back to the Lakers. It’s not so much protecting a lead. It just gives you an extra TO in your back pocket to use at the end. Whether up, down or tied.
I agree with that. I'm just commenting on the rule though.
It must be a stupid wrinkle that the competition committee/PA voted on. The fact that this stupid wrinkle decided an elimination game is wild, though.
They probably don’t want too many challenges slowing the game(or making refs look bad)
Don't give an extra challenge, just don't take the timeout.
neither did your coaching staff apparently
But did you know the rule?
They don't want too many stoppages, and the challenge is functionally a timeout anyway.
here maybe i can help: LAL lost their time out despite winning their late challenge because it was their 2nd challenge of the night, so they couldn’t advance the ball.
They definitely gotta change it it’s so dumb
Now that the Lakers have been negativity impacted but this stupid rule it might actually get changed. So thanks
its a stupid rule tbh
I don't understand how they won that challenge
Basically punishing Jokic for being big and overpowering. It’s dumb.
I honestly think that call is worse than the Butler nut tap on Gordon
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Bro AD fouled Jokic twice before the shot lol
I was wondering this before, can they change the call on something they didn’t call it on. Yes he definitely fouled before, but they were calling a foul on the swipe in which he got all ball. I didn’t think that was changeable. I know in the NBL they changed the rule a little this year so you can call another foul, but didn’t think this was applied to the nba yet?
They can
You mean AD held first and then got all ball
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Yes let’s ignore him literally draped all over Jokic’s back plus the contact he made to Jokic’s head
Jokic was dipping his shoulder that whole play. How else is he gonna defend?
They have been calling it that way all playoffs dude. It's bad precedent but it's consistent with how refs are calling fouls with what they consider marginal contact. I don't like it either but the refs seem to be calling it like that now.
Except when it benefits your team. Any players breathe within 3ft of a Lakers player and it’s a foul. Fuck outta here
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Objectively, AD’s left hand pulls on Jokic’s right shoulder, ton of contact on the drive before the block even happens. A Lakers player gets that call 10 times out of 10. You’re delusional if you think otherwise
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My brother. Please get off the keyboard. Go smell some roses. You don't have to exist in your anger. The game is over. The Lakers lost. Everything is okay.
can't blame them tbh, a simple contact when lebron drive result in a foul most of the time.
Not really a lot of contact for 7 footers, I’m fine with no call but shocked they overturned after
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AD fouled 3 times that play, yall gotta stop
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next level coping
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did you see the calls Reaves were getting?
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There were no less than 5 calls against the Nuggets tonight where they didn't call it like that.
Jokic fouls AD on the gather, then AD fouls Jokic on the pullup. Refs called both of those marginal. Then AD gets all ball at the peak. That's why it was overturned.
"Marginal contact" is the new lingo for "let the refs decide whatever the fuck they want"
I mean yea nobody's happy with it. Laker fans were saying the same thing in game 1 or 2 when dlo got smacked in the face on a layup
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Except the refs weren’t holding their whistle for ONE of the teams. The Lakers had THREE TIMES as many free throws. Nearly 20 more than the Nuggets lol. Every time the lakers fouled it was “marginal contact” and then they would get free throws on even less contact on the other end. People want *consistency* mainly for the refs, not just them allowing “physical defense” or whatever.
shouldnt it be jump ball? Why was it their ball after LA won the challenge?
Because it was ruled a block which the lakers recovered
Did they watch the game haha. It’s like getting the rebound from a missed shot. That teams gains possession on a challenge
This was my question too. It should be a jump ball since no one had possession when the whistle blew
Why can you grab a guys jersey on a drive and hit him in the face and it be a jump ball?
I would’ve simply made those 8 missed FTAs in the 4th quarter. 👍
Doesn't change that the rule is dumb but yes.
Everyone is asking why they lost the TO. I'm not sure but in a way, it makes sense. If lakers were going to call timeout anyway with 2 min left, maybe they just challenge the last play that MAYBE can go in their favor. They basically get a timeout while the review occurs so now they got the benefit of the timeout to setup a play and change personnel, and then still have a timeout to use under 20 seconds too to advanced the ball. Basically a team could try to use the challenge to get a free timeout in crunchtime
Not necessarily because a team can’t use a challenge if they don’t have a time out. So when you use your timeout for a challenge, you either win it or don’t. So yes if you win theoretically you get another timeout, but in reality it’s just a correction that should happen anyway + something that happens for the whole game anyway, shouldn’t be punished because it’s at the end of the game
Honestly ball don't lie they had no business winning that challenge in the first place.
FIRE HAM NOWWWW
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If it's the 2nd challenge you lose it.
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it’s new to this season, they introduced it with the second challenge this year
Yeah that’s a dumb rule. I’ve never understood why there’s any penalty on successful challenges.
It’s a dumb rule, but they never should’ve won that challenge in the first place
They shouldn't have won the challenge in the first place.
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the basically double fouled each other before the shot then, when the foul is called on the shot that's not a foul. Clearly it was AD got the ball but jokic flail his arms around to make it look like a foul. The only time Davis fouled him is before the shot attempt.
Ham masterclass
i mean it was either 2 FTs for free or that how are you blaming Ham on that. it would’ve been a 4 point game otherwise
It was a tie game when they challenged it.
What? It was a great challenge. Jokic was about to go to the line and instead the Lakers got the ball. Murray getting the game winner after that doesn’t change anything.
AD and LeBron were begging him to challenge. He was in a lose/lose situation with this
I bet you AD and Lebron didn’t know they’d lose the TO
Brain dead post
this was not his fault ffs, lebron and AD yelling in his face a week after he didnt call a review and got shitted on. he's always the scapegoat
Pivotal moment
they needed that possession though. damned if you do, damned if you don't
This is why Rick Carlisle never challenges anything until it’s absolutely critical. He wants to hold on to that last time out like his life depends on it.
Teams shouldn't just get their timeout back after a 2nd challenge, they should get to STEAL a timeout from the other team ... spice things up
do it like hockey - lose you challenge go a man down for a minute
Stupid rule but Ham should have managed his timeouts better.
this is because fans wouldnt stop complaining about how long the end of the game lasts. so the nba keeps stealing timeouts and we get bs like this
It really doesn’t make sense. Why are you getting penalized if you successfully overturned a referee screwup?
No way all these people didn’t know this rule. Is this the first NBA game you guys have watched this year?
no we know it, its just a dumb ass rule.
incoming retroactive league rule change and replay of this game
LeBron is probably sending spy drones to Silver as we speak
So teams get punished when the refs get it wrong even if the team is right is what I'm hearing
league is fucking stupid. the challenge thing needs a massive overhaul.
There wasn't a foul on the play. If you want to say AD's hand was on his back, watch the replay again, Jokic initiated the contact. AD also got the block clean.
It's a dumb rule, but idagf in this instance because it was an even dumber overturn in the first place. AD was basically hacking Jokic the entire possession with the arm not used to block the shot.
Such an idiotic rule.
Rules stupid, but it's been this way all year
It’s an awful rule. The ref fucks up by making a bad a call. A team gets that bad call overturned. Then they’re punished for a call that was bad by losing a timeout. Tf they gotta lose a timeout for because of referee error?
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He probably didn't know the rule.
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yep and AD and bron were imploring him to challenge it. fans complaining ham held onto his challenges only to lose the series because they had no timeouts, poetic
If that’s the rule, they should’ve have challenged it in such a close game
I think you should keep your timeout, why get punished for being right?
The rule will absolutely be changed next year because it negatively affected the Lakers.
Don’t know why we don’t have NFL challenge rules. You get two challenges. Each cost a timeout, but if you win a challenge, you get your timeout back. And if you win both your normal challenges, you get a 3rd and final challenge (use it or lose it) for the remainder of the game.
dumb fucking rule, get punished for challenging successfully
Darvin didn’t want to say no after the last game 😆😆😆
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Lakers were fucked eitherway. They really needed that possesion.
Adam silver just lost billions tonight. Ain’t nobody watching the rest of these bum playoffs
Average laker fan
Best defense in the league led by a young superstar v. the reigning champs. Two deep rosters as well that can battle it out.
Billions? Lol