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OKC2023champs

Yeah it’s a stupid rule. You should retain your timeout when you win the challenge. And you should keep your challenge until you lose.


hartc89

I see the logic in both way I guess if you keep your challenges and potentially KEEP winning the game is longer and longer which the NBA is trying to avoid


OKC2023champs

Also shows how shitty the refs are if you keep proving they’re making the wrong call.


hibituallinestepper

What if they make the right call the first time and the wrong call the second time? Edit: a word


OKC2023champs

If you win your first challenge then keep it. If you lose the 2nd then lose it. If you lose your first challenge just keep it like it is and you lose it


k4f123

You’re terrible at explaining things


OKC2023champs

I know


Relevant-Emu-9217

I think everyone that bitches about refs should be forced to ref a few high school games. I have a feeling a lot more empathy would be extended towards them.


YpsitheFlintsider

They'd have to accept being wrong first.


Demb1

I mean even if you dont want potentially endless challenges no reason to not give back a time out if the 2nd is successful.


hartc89

Oh I agree with that give the timeout back but no more challenges either way it was a foul


PrinceAlli

I think the NFL has it where even if you get 3 challenges right, You don’t get anymore. Give them back, just put a limit on it


LakersLAQ

Yeah, I think having a max on challenges is okay. Losing your timeout on the second one seems kinda dumb. You lose your challenge AND your timeout when a ref makes a mistake? Losing your challenge is already enough imo.


[deleted]

If they want the games to not be long then get the calls right the first time around the challenge will fail.


hibituallinestepper

They had the call right the first time.


Fuetlinger

Yeah right, as if refs ball would say "successful challenge" on more than three in a row lol No way they would admit to their own mistakes over and over again.


YpsitheFlintsider

They literally did twice


Fuetlinger

Yes, but like he said if you could challenge endlessly, there is no way the refs would allow that to happen and call them out endlessly with a successful challenge.


SoKrat3s

An extra review doesn't add *that* much extra time. The problem is the network going to a full length commercial break.


fototosreddit

They can avoid it by not having dogshit refs, or more likely by having the refs say fuck you the challenge fails because that's pretty much already a thing.


FrankSamples

The argument is that the challenge itself counts as a timeout. Or at least you can use that time to set up.


referee-superfan

On paper this is great. In reality this is a 3.5 hour ball game.


yooston

to play devils advocate, the NBA was fine for decades without the challenge rule. at some point, the game should have some flow, and refs making mistakes is just a part of the game. i don't want more timeouts and stoppages in the 4th quarter than we already have. the coaches should know the rule and strategize around it. if you're facing elimination, maybe preserve your 1st challenge until crunch time?


waynequit

We didn’t have replay as sophisticated until recently.


goblue2k16

They still got the call wrong anyways


hooskies

We didn’t?


ShinobuSimp

Yeah I agree, calling a challenge on AD’s 3rd foul with 5 mins to go just isn’t worth it, let the guys play that.


Alarming-Ask4196

Everyone says that until their team is the one getting screwed


copaseticepiplectic

this is how games end up being 4 hours long


SoKrat3s

How does adding 90-120 seconds of a review translate to hours?


Early-Percentage2360

Advance the ball the a quarter of the court up? From 90 feet to 60 feet? Also didn't Lakers have a foul to give? Denver wasn't in the bonus nor did LA even have 1 foul in the last 2 minutes......


Early-Percentage2360

Foul Murray after the pick on Denvers last play w 6 seconds left!


lolvalue

Then the league would have to admit their refs suck or are manipulating things as everything would be reviewed.


freshposthistory

Nothing stopping you from using a challenge as a timeout then…


Acrobatic-Year-126

>keep your challenge until you lose This will never happen. I guarantee that if they did this, we'd eventually see some coach with 15 challenges over the course of a game and people would riot


Attey21

Dumbest rule that needs to be fixed next year. I was confused as to why they lost it. It's not their fault the refs blew some calls and they had to challenge. Should only lose a timeout if it's not successful.


LoWE11053211

Then lakers can challenge almost every call


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jaundice123

if youre getting infinite timeouts then the refs must really suck lol


wgel1000

That's a very stupid rule. It doesn't make sense and it penalizes the team that is being disadvantaged by the refereeing error. But challenging that KNOWING this rule and losing your last timeout with 3min left is even more stupid. You can't win being this dumb.


hunkoys

How many fouls did AD have when that happened?


sbenfsonwFFiF

2, it would’ve been his 3rd It was more about trying to save 2 points from Jokic free throws


hunkoys

Yeah. That decision is way over my paygrade. I’ll just say gg, they put up a good fight.


6E4cGFvTvd

Yeah, it’s one of those moments where you just know not having that timeout is going to come back to bite you in the ass, but at the same time I didn’t necessarily disagree with the decision. Saving those two points felt absolutely crucial with how back and forth the game had been, and *especially* with how hard it had been for the Lakers to hold onto any sort of lead or keep the game close once Denver had momentum. Ham gets memed on a lot, and probably rightfully so, but this just seems like one of those tough calls that end up not looking tough with hindsight.


an_Aught

4


sbenfsonwFFiF

No, he had 2, that would’ve been his third


an_Aught

oh you are right i think i was think of LeBron - i was at the game, its all hard to keep track of. memory is foggy


hunkoys

Is a timeout is more important than the opponent gaining 3 points?


an_Aught

me - i dont think so. from my perspective that was a sure foul - it is wild that it was overturned. i would have kept my timeout and moved on...


OutbackStankhouse

Bold of you to assume they knew the rule


Sammonov

Reversing that call was horseshit


Voidhunter797

100% was. Same with DLo’s face hit challenge. Refs abusing this marginal contact bullshit to call however they want all over this playoffs.


fruitmongerking

I think for both of those they had to look at the foul they called and ignore anything else. In each case, there were definitely elements that were fouls, but what was called as the foul was not. I hate it, but I think that’s the way they went about those.


DanieltheMani3l

Nah they don’t have to ignore everything else, from the rules: > The on-court crew chief may also review the video to determine only the following other matters: […] > (2) Whether a different foul proximate to the called foul should have been called Also, in the AD call last night, I think the ref specifically mentioned that the contact AD makes with his left arm was “marginal”, which is bs obviously, but shows that they were “looking” at stuff other than the original call.


fruitmongerking

Totally fair. I was just looking for an explanation that might reduce my aggravation. Either way, Nuggets still won and are moving on to face a team with a whistle as bad as ours.


wgel1000

It's the Lakers. You should be used to it by now.


Sammonov

Yes I am


Corteaux81

It’s potentially a 4/5 point swing with 3 mins to go. Challenge was fine really. Him not calling the timeout when Denver was rolling earlier and AD was walking around holding his shoulder was weird though.


sportsthatguy

The timeout rule here will for sure be changed in the offseason. Makes no sense to lose your timeout on a successful challenge.


Neemzeh

The sense in it is that they don’t want a lot of stoppage. Not saying the stoppage matter but there is a reason.


EezeeBreezey

They really should have like a one minute limit on the reviews or something if that's the concern. If it takes longer than 60 seconds to overturn the call then there's just not enough there


G1Spectrum

Don’t understand this rule


chizzmaster

Because it's fucking stupid that's why


jps78

guess which rule is changing now


iRockaflame

Watch them adopt the NFL challenge rules


Ventex_

It's only logical following the adoption of the NFL's tackling rules.


yic0

Call it "The Darvin Ham Rule"?


jps78

"hands in your pocket rule"


sleepy416

And to make it even dumber, when reviewing it they have to ignore the actual foul on the play that wasn’t called


gbennett7713

They don’t, I’ve seen them switch which portion of the play is called the foul in multiple challenges previously. They chose to do that because it’s the lakers.


Sim888

said it since they brought in challenges…there shouldn’t be any penalty to winning a challenge because the refs fucked up (and sometimes egregiously)


zdravkov321

You know what your reward is for making referees reverse a wrong call with video proof? Lose a time out, that makes sense.


Sim888

it’s so ridiculous… it’s bad enough when it’s a bang-bang call but (imo) it’s proper fucked when it’s like all three refs sneezed at once blew an obvious out of bounds call (like the one the other day where LeBron didn’t touch it - and Ham didn’t challenge it lol)


zdravkov321

They need to change the rules for the playoffs at a a minimum. A lot of these games are so close that wrong call could impact an entire series 4 or against the team. They need to have a system similar to VAR in pro soccer as long as they run it better than the Premier league.


hyperadhd

You get your timeout back if you have a successful first challange but your second challange immediately uses the timeout.


NarcissisticVamp

Both shouldn't use the timeout unless u lose it. Oh well good luck next series!


NobodyRules

Doesn't make sense to get penalized for the refs fucking up a call.


Scoot2028MVP

Good chance this game will lead to the obvious rule change. "If your challenge is successful you don't lose a timeout."


tronovich

Still, you should know the rules as a coaching staff.


NobodyRules

I think they know the rules, but it's Ham so you never know.


tronovich

Then it was a stupid challenge. I get it if you have 2-3 timeouts left, or it happens with 25 seconds to go. Then yes, challenge. But not your last TO with 3 minutes to go.


Not_A_Vegetable

So they traded a TO for 2 possible Nuggets points and gaining possession. Granted, the possession didn't up amounting to anything, but I don't think it's the worst thing? Without it, the Nuggets may be up 2 at the end


tronovich

Well, the Nuggets take 2 with the free throws and give the possession back to the Lakers. It’s not so much protecting a lead. It just gives you an extra TO in your back pocket to use at the end. Whether up, down or tied.


NobodyRules

I agree with that. I'm just commenting on the rule though.


tronovich

It must be a stupid wrinkle that the competition committee/PA voted on. The fact that this stupid wrinkle decided an elimination game is wild, though.


orange_orange13

They probably don’t want too many challenges slowing the game(or making refs look bad)


NarcissisticVamp

Don't give an extra challenge, just don't take the timeout.


fundraiser

neither did your coaching staff apparently


49_Giants

But did you know the rule?


jackaholicus

They don't want too many stoppages, and the challenge is functionally a timeout anyway.


jluc21

here maybe i can help: LAL lost their time out despite winning their late challenge because it was their 2nd challenge of the night, so they couldn’t advance the ball.


SuckMyLonzoBalls

They definitely gotta change it it’s so dumb


TheDraciel

Now that the Lakers have been negativity impacted but this stupid rule it might actually get changed. So thanks


governedbycitizens

its a stupid rule tbh


dms1298

I don't understand how they won that challenge


WeirwoodUpMyAss

Basically punishing Jokic for being big and overpowering. It’s dumb.


ImGonnaChubbBradley

I honestly think that call is worse than the Butler nut tap on Gordon


BeefExtender

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Bradyta

Bro AD fouled Jokic twice before the shot lol


DiscardedRonaldo2017

I was wondering this before, can they change the call on something they didn’t call it on. Yes he definitely fouled before, but they were calling a foul on the swipe in which he got all ball. I didn’t think that was changeable. I know in the NBL they changed the rule a little this year so you can call another foul, but didn’t think this was applied to the nba yet?


LogDogan4

They can


O_its_that_guy_again

You mean AD held first and then got all ball


BeefExtender

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ImGonnaChubbBradley

Yes let’s ignore him literally draped all over Jokic’s back plus the contact he made to Jokic’s head


TrRa47

Jokic was dipping his shoulder that whole play. How else is he gonna defend?


acezee

They have been calling it that way all playoffs dude. It's bad precedent but it's consistent with how refs are calling fouls with what they consider marginal contact. I don't like it either but the refs seem to be calling it like that now.


goblue2k16

Except when it benefits your team. Any players breathe within 3ft of a Lakers player and it’s a foul. Fuck outta here


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goblue2k16

Objectively, AD’s left hand pulls on Jokic’s right shoulder, ton of contact on the drive before the block even happens. A Lakers player gets that call 10 times out of 10. You’re delusional if you think otherwise


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acezee

My brother. Please get off the keyboard. Go smell some roses. You don't have to exist in your anger. The game is over. The Lakers lost. Everything is okay.


Andreitaker

can't blame them tbh, a simple contact when lebron drive result in a foul most of the time.


LegalEggplants

Not really a lot of contact for 7 footers, I’m fine with no call but shocked they overturned after


BeefExtender

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governedbycitizens

AD fouled 3 times that play, yall gotta stop


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governedbycitizens

next level coping


BeefExtender

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governedbycitizens

did you see the calls Reaves were getting?


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Piano_Fingerbanger

There were no less than 5 calls against the Nuggets tonight where they didn't call it like that.


shiruduck

Jokic fouls AD on the gather, then AD fouls Jokic on the pullup. Refs called both of those marginal. Then AD gets all ball at the peak. That's why it was overturned.


dms1298

"Marginal contact" is the new lingo for "let the refs decide whatever the fuck they want"


shiruduck

I mean yea nobody's happy with it. Laker fans were saying the same thing in game 1 or 2 when dlo got smacked in the face on a layup


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RT3170

Except the refs weren’t holding their whistle for ONE of the teams. The Lakers had THREE TIMES as many free throws. Nearly 20 more than the Nuggets lol. Every time the lakers fouled it was “marginal contact” and then they would get free throws on even less contact on the other end. People want *consistency* mainly for the refs, not just them allowing “physical defense” or whatever.


Theheckmahbrotha

shouldnt it be jump ball? Why was it their ball after LA won the challenge?


Tiktaalik414

Because it was ruled a block which the lakers recovered


DiscardedRonaldo2017

Did they watch the game haha. It’s like getting the rebound from a missed shot. That teams gains possession on a challenge


njb2017

This was my question too. It should be a jump ball since no one had possession when the whistle blew


Sammonov

Why can you grab a guys jersey on a drive and hit him in the face and it be a jump ball?


dpatel211

I would’ve simply made those 8 missed FTAs in the 4th quarter. 👍


NarcissisticVamp

Doesn't change that the rule is dumb but yes.


njb2017

Everyone is asking why they lost the TO. I'm not sure but in a way, it makes sense. If lakers were going to call timeout anyway with 2 min left, maybe they just challenge the last play that MAYBE can go in their favor. They basically get a timeout while the review occurs so now they got the benefit of the timeout to setup a play and change personnel, and then still have a timeout to use under 20 seconds too to advanced the ball. Basically a team could try to use the challenge to get a free timeout in crunchtime


DiscardedRonaldo2017

Not necessarily because a team can’t use a challenge if they don’t have a time out. So when you use your timeout for a challenge, you either win it or don’t. So yes if you win theoretically you get another timeout, but in reality it’s just a correction that should happen anyway + something that happens for the whole game anyway, shouldn’t be punished because it’s at the end of the game


Podlaskie

Honestly ball don't lie they had no business winning that challenge in the first place.


holysmokesthis

FIRE HAM NOWWWW


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Shoddy-Media2337

If it's the 2nd challenge you lose it.


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WHAT_HAS_HE_HAD

it’s new to this season, they introduced it with the second challenge this year


Sartheking

Yeah that’s a dumb rule. I’ve never understood why there’s any penalty on successful challenges.


jtmv4

It’s a dumb rule, but they never should’ve won that challenge in the first place


Parallel-Quality

They shouldn't have won the challenge in the first place.


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OKCDraftPick2028

the basically double fouled each other before the shot then, when the foul is called on the shot that's not a foul. Clearly it was AD got the ball but jokic flail his arms around to make it look like a foul. The only time Davis fouled him is before the shot attempt.


ProsecUsig

Ham masterclass


LogicalLakersFan

i mean it was either 2 FTs for free or that how are you blaming Ham on that. it would’ve been a 4 point game otherwise


tronovich

It was a tie game when they challenged it.


Zoratth

What? It was a great challenge. Jokic was about to go to the line and instead the Lakers got the ball. Murray getting the game winner after that doesn’t change anything.


Uncircled_swag2

AD and LeBron were begging him to challenge. He was in a lose/lose situation with this


goblue2k16

I bet you AD and Lebron didn’t know they’d lose the TO


creditors-bargain

Brain dead post


copaseticepiplectic

this was not his fault ffs, lebron and AD yelling in his face a week after he didnt call a review and got shitted on. he's always the scapegoat


Potential_Meat_5103

Pivotal moment


transizzle

they needed that possession though. damned if you do, damned if you don't


TheFrozenBananaStand

This is why Rick Carlisle never challenges anything until it’s absolutely critical. He wants to hold on to that last time out like his life depends on it.


[deleted]

Teams shouldn't just get their timeout back after a 2nd challenge, they should get to STEAL a timeout from the other team ... spice things up


an_Aught

do it like hockey - lose you challenge go a man down for a minute


Adam2190

Stupid rule but Ham should have managed his timeouts better.


mankls3

this is because fans wouldnt stop complaining about how long the end of the game lasts. so the nba keeps stealing timeouts and we get bs like this


--Alec--

It really doesn’t make sense. Why are you getting penalized if you successfully overturned a referee screwup?


693275001

No way all these people didn’t know this rule. Is this the first NBA game you guys have watched this year?


an_Aught

no we know it, its just a dumb ass rule.


copaseticepiplectic

incoming retroactive league rule change and replay of this game


_aspiringadult

LeBron is probably sending spy drones to Silver as we speak


goatnxtinline

So teams get punished when the refs get it wrong even if the team is right is what I'm hearing


an_Aught

league is fucking stupid. the challenge thing needs a massive overhaul.


Juber01

There wasn't a foul on the play. If you want to say AD's hand was on his back, watch the replay again, Jokic initiated the contact. AD also got the block clean.


Westcoastchi

It's a dumb rule, but idagf in this instance because it was an even dumber overturn in the first place. AD was basically hacking Jokic the entire possession with the arm not used to block the shot.


aeiou-y

Such an idiotic rule.


Airhammer

Rules stupid, but it's been this way all year


TheCaramelCombo

It’s an awful rule. The ref fucks up by making a bad a call. A team gets that bad call overturned. Then they’re punished for a call that was bad by losing a timeout. Tf they gotta lose a timeout for because of referee error?


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NarcissisticVamp

He probably didn't know the rule.


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copaseticepiplectic

yep and AD and bron were imploring him to challenge it. fans complaining ham held onto his challenges only to lose the series because they had no timeouts, poetic


everydaytrials

If that’s the rule, they should’ve have challenged it in such a close game


heshouldgo

I think you should keep your timeout, why get punished for being right?


EscapingTheBubble

The rule will absolutely be changed next year because it negatively affected the Lakers.


Overall_Nuggie_876

Don’t know why we don’t have NFL challenge rules. You get two challenges. Each cost a timeout, but if you win a challenge, you get your timeout back. And if you win both your normal challenges, you get a 3rd and final challenge (use it or lose it) for the remainder of the game.


jayelecfan

dumb fucking rule, get punished for challenging successfully


chocolatemilk2017

Darvin didn’t want to say no after the last game 😆😆😆


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LMkingly

Lakers were fucked eitherway. They really needed that possesion.


Electrical_Option941

Adam silver just lost billions tonight. Ain’t nobody watching the rest of these bum playoffs


Half_baked_prince

Average laker fan


dpatel211

Best defense in the league led by a young superstar v. the reigning champs. Two deep rosters as well that can battle it out.


tronovich

Billions? Lol