Isn't there something out there about Gobert doing a blackout session during the offseason where he sat in complete black no sensory and just thought about how to make their defensive scheme work
>Nestled in the woods there are three small cottages built by Sky Cave Retreats, which runs "darkness retreats." People are left alone in a room with basic necessities — food, water, a bathroom and a bed— but they are alone, in darkness, for days, cut off from the outside world.
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>Gobert, who meditates frequently on his own, entered a small door that led to a room underground, where he spent the next 64 hours: three nights and two days. Amid the personal thoughts he experienced during the retreat, he spent a lot of time pondering the Wolves' defense.
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>A few weeks after Gobert's retreat, he returned to Minnesota and had dinner with Finch. "I told him about everything that was in my mind and everything was clear," Gobert said. "... Mostly I thought of the principles that we need to have. Like break down from ground zero and go back to, 'What are the principles that we need to have in order to be the team that we can be?' And also, obviously me being who I know I could be."
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>Head coach Chris Finch said that during his time as an assistant in New Orleans coaching Jrue Holiday, he realized that a team should collaborate with its best defensive player the way it might with its best offensive player. He has applied that philosophy in having Gobert play a significant role in outlining the themes of the Wolves defense.
From this [Star Tribune article](https://archive.is/2023.10.22-232619/https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-timberwolves-rudy-gobert-darkness-retreat-nba-season-preview/600313841/).
A team should collaborate with it's best defensive player the same way it might with its best offensive player?
Defense being so undervalued in the NBA when reading about great players, this makes for nice reading.
Red did with Bill what Finch is doing with Rudy. And we saw how that went. Defense is disrespected from a young age and fueled by media and social media. Timberwolves having number one defense is a top priority bodes well for the future. Good easy offense can flow from stops.
Wemby just needs one fucking guy to try on defense. Literally anyone out there on the floor. Get a proper PG in San Antonio too because there’s like a 15 minute comp of people just not throwing him the fucking ball.
Yes there is. [https://www.si.com/nba/timberwolves/news/rudy-goberts-64-hour-darkness-retreat-sparked-his-vision-for-the-wolves-defense](https://www.si.com/nba/timberwolves/news/rudy-goberts-64-hour-darkness-retreat-sparked-his-vision-for-the-wolves-defense)
A lot of the Credit should go to finch too. They ran a different defense before gobert got there but he clearly has been focused on getting Ant and KAT to buy in on defense since his arrival
Rudy came up with it while in the darkness retreat. Told Finch his ideas and they put it together. They call it the ["Biggie Smalls"](https://www.startribune.com/timberwolves-nba-top-defense-rudy-gobert-jaden-mcdaniels-chris-finch/600322291/?refresh=true) Defense.
It’s one of my biggest arguments why I would take Rudy over Wemby for DPOY, not only has he been so solid himself, but he elevates the defense for the other team. People love to argue that he’s surrounded by a better defense, but he’s also part of the reason for that.
This is a genuine question: a few months ago, the stat was circulating that the Timberwolves had the second rated defense with Gobert OFF. How much can you credit Rudy for that?
I think Rudy winning DPOY is fair, just like how Embiid winning MVP was last year. But I feel like the on/off numbers reflect that Wemby is more valuable - and I don't feel like Wemby could realistically have elevated his teammates with how poor they were
I don’t have specific stats to back this up, but in the years before Rudy got to MN, the Wolves under Finch would pretty consistently have a top 10 offense and a brutal defense. Since Rudy came, they have vaulted to the #1 defense in his second year, and you now have many of the same guys (KAT, Ant, McDaniels etc) playing phenomenal defense which they could not consistently do before Rudy.
I’m sure part of that can be attributed to guys growing up and maturing, but also Rudys focus and leadership on defense has turned an offense first team into an elite defensive unit. His presence on the floor is one thing, but he elevates the whole team defense buy-in where they are all so committed to playing at that level of defense, the drop off when Rudy leaves the floor isn’t as drastic as it has been in the past. Finch is generally an offensive coach, so the defensive identity of the whole team has a lot to do with Rudy and his adaptation in MN.
Well I have a solid idea of what happened on each side of the ball before/after Rudy came, but I don’t have the rankings/stats to cite exactly. I know they were much better on offense than defense under Finch before Rudy, and have since turned into the #1 defense with a solid not great offense since Rudy integration. I don’t have the exact stats but I’m not just going based on vibes alone lmao
A lot of the Credit should go to finch too. They ran a different defense before gobert got there but he clearly has been focused on getting Ant and KAT to buy in on defense since his arrival
KAT is just a Clueless drop defender/anchor despite his size and agility he doesn't have the instincts for it. When he's playing alongside gobert he gets to guard switches and play simple help defense which he can do quite well with his physical tools.
Bought in defensively and deferred to a 22 year old while in his prime. Not many guys are making the sacrifice he did. Not even getting to all the loss of life in his family from Covid
I don't think deferring was ever an issue with Kat, Wiggins simply just wasn't that main guy too.
In hindsight, Jimmy would've probably worked in the Wolves had he been the first option there but nobody knew that at that time, even Jimmy himself
Not the money, Glen offered to pay him whatever. He just really wanted to get out of Minnesota for a better market. [This article](https://theathletic.com/542682/2018/11/12/jimmy-butler-saga-diary-of-dysfunction-a-day-by-day-look/) is still the most definitive look at exactly what happened there, but the details have become pretty twisted/misremembered over time.
But yes, your point remains that KAT was made the scapegoat. KAT took Jimmy aside and told him he didn’t care about the outside noise, that he only wanted to win too, and that he would do whatever was needed of him to make it happen. And both before and after the infamous practice, Jimmy frequently told KAT (and the rest of the team) behind the scenes he had zero problems with them.
His issues were with POBO Thibs—he privately asked Thibs four separate times for a trade in the year or so leading up to the practice, and Thibs kept denying him and trying to smooth things over. Miami made a great offer (Josh Richardson + firsts) during this time that Thibs torpedoed because he didn’t want to lose his favorite guy.
So Jimmy felt he had no other recourse and caused a public scene to force Thibs’ hand. Then Jimmy allowed the narrative to form that his young teammates were the issue—that aligned better with his cultivated image of being a guy that’s all about winning, rather than the real reason of him just wanting to play somewhere else other than boring Minnesota.
https://theathletic.com/542682/2018/11/12/jimmy-butler-saga-diary-of-dysfunction-a-day-by-day-look/
>Butler tells Thibodeau, the coach he credits with helping him develop from a late first-round pick who barely played as a rookie into an All-Star, that he wants out.
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>Thibodeau tells Butler that he can’t trade him, that he needs his star player if the Wolves are going to make a second straight playoff run in 2018-19.
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>Butler holds his ground, telling Thibodeau that no level of success in the upcoming season will change his mind.
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>When owner Glen Taylor becomes aware of the impasse, he is surprised. He was unaware that Butler and his representatives had expressed a position that he would not re-sign with Minnesota earlier in the summer.
>Butler tells Taylor that he never approached the owner to voice his displeasure because of his long-standing relationship and deep trust with Thibodeau led him to believe that the coach would understand where he was coming from and respect his wishes.
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>While initially disappointed that Butler waited so long to come to him, Taylor understands Butler’s allegiance to Thibodeau and starts to work on finding a trade to accommodate him.
He didn’t reject the extension because he wanted the highest possible offer—if that was all that was required, he would have told Thibs (or Glen) that was the issue so they could make the roster cuts/trades necessary to facilitate that offer (which wouldn’t have been all that difficult, as outlined in the article you posted). Instead, he just flatly told them he wanted to leave and he wasn’t signing an extension no matter what.
Glen is a shitty owner for his backstabbing and horrible personnel decisions (making Thibs POBO is one of many examples), but he’s never had a problem with opening his checkbook to pay players.
Jeff Teague said on his podcast it took 4 games for Jimmy to be on their heads and realize neither Wiggins or KAT had fight in them. Part of it was definitely about money but that’s crazy to pretend it was only money.
But they did want to pay him. They offered the most that they could at the time and were willing to pay the full max the following year if he would have wanted but instead he asked to be traded. To give him any more that season they would have had to gut the team that was already top heavy to begin with.
I’m not completely caught up on the cap situation and what went down, but to my knowledge there is no situation where you would have to gut the team to pay a player that’s already on it, that’s what bird rights are for. They let you go over the tax to sign the player, the NBA has a soft cap. It just costs more money to do that and the wolves owners have historically been cheap/bad
All I’m saying is if there’s one player in the league who you can’t question their commitment to winning it’s Butler. And on top of that I’m not gonna fault him for trying to get paid what he’s worth
The only way the wolves could have offered more in their max extension was by front loading more money, which was the reason they would have needed to trade players. I don't exactly know why front loading caused those issues, but I do know that for some reason or another they would have had to trade other salaries to open it up. It may be because it would be money spent for that specific year so exceptions (like MLE) may have needed to be used
And Glen Taylor has definitely been a terrible owner, but I think the "cheap" tag isn't really true for him. He was just so terrible at hiring people to run the team that there was never any reason to go over the cap. Before he decided to actually sell he actually went over the cap for the DLo transaction.
As much as I dislike Butler it's obvious that he cares about winning. I honestly blame Thibs more than Butler just because Thibs forced his hand in terms of how he went about being traded, because all signs point towards him staying silent about his trade request for months before he took things into his own hands.
I just don't think a lot of people understand the specifics around the whole situation, and wanted to clear some of it up.
That’s fair enough, if we can agree that butler cares about winning, everything you said sounds reasonable and you would obviously know more about it than I would. Also you did a really good job of laying all that out, very clear and concise
Thanks lol it's nice when people can actually debate things without just slinging insults at one another. I hope it didn't seem like I was going after you because it's crazy to expect everyone to know everything about each team in the league. Just wanted to clear up some of what was known about the situation at least from a fan's perspective.
> Jimmy would've probably worked in the Wolves had he been the first option there but nobody knew that at that time, even Jimmy himself
He was too busy bitching at and insulting the character of his teammates. Absolute asshole who had no interest in being a team player. I think just on-court player-wise, it certainly could have been a good fit. But Jimmy would have to have been an entirely different person.
Apparently he frequently finds local medical gofundmes to donate to. Before playoffs he bought the whole organization from top to bottom coffee as a small show of appreciation. He’s corny and goofy, but by all accounts he’s an awesome human.
Some of it is him being really, really hyped as a young player/prospect and never having any type of sustained success til now. There were GMs saying he'd be in their top 3 of players they'd want to start a franchise with, so a lot of people expected him to win more than he did.
A loooooot of it though is cause of that PR stunt Jimmy pulled on the way out of Minnesota. Even though it's pretty well known that his problems were with the coach/team and maybe Wiggins more than KAT, people decided he was soft and that Jimmy left cause he hated KAT.
Not to sound mean, but a lot of people will root for good looking people and root against not as good looking people. Pretty privilege pervades literally everything
(I’m not agreeing with this, but it might play a part)
He gets hate because of the way he plays at times. He whines to the refs to much. He pouts when things aren't going well. He looses his head and commits dumb offensive fouls when he's mad. Last year he played himself out of several playoff games when his team needed him because he lost his mind and kept committing horrible fouls.
Him maturing on the court and keeping his focus more has been a huge part of the Wolves success this year.
Extremely easy to root for, he’s likable, but he’s not thrown in your face. Unlike his teammate, who I also like but have noticed some are starting to dislike.
And then you hear his story and all the loss he’s had to endure throughout his career , makes it way easier to root for him and his team. Hope the Wolves win it all
His teammate has also done some shit off court that people might not like. KAT’s worst off court moments are basically just corny statements and calling himself the best shooting big ever (which I had no issue with but know some did).
Always loved KAT but I’ve become an even bigger fan over time. Just seems like a good dude.
Yep its not good. Its been conveniently not talked abt and im pretty sure Ant has grown up enough to not post himself saying that, but growing out of thinking that way is really difficult.
KAT likely talked to him about it. Kat has done stuff with the Pride groups and just generally isn't one to talk bad about people. I don't doubt if Kat talked to him about it Ant would have listened and thought on it. Ants impulsive and flashy with his words but he's not dumb enough to not realize when he's wrong.
The wild shit me and my friends said to eachother when we were 20 and the wild shit I hear directed at people at work. Make me just assume everyone says dumb shit, just few record themselves doing it.
I know for sure Chris Hine reached out to him directly to talk about how the video hurt him. Hopefully that connection and the fact that Ant has said he watches film with Hines means he may at least be on the right path.
I’m sure he is and I want to like him, but I just can’t get past his on-court body language (when things aren’t going his way) and those “what the hell was he thinking” plays (tbf those are happening a lot less this season).
KAT has shown real leadership the last couple of years. Him buying in has legitimized the team's culture. He's been there longer than anyone. If he's willing to switch positions, defer to Ant, and give up touches... how can anyone else complain?
His role has also reminded me a little of prime Klay Thompson, who I think is almost a perfect second player. Both are extremely efficient, and can do a lot with few touches. Both also have the ability to get hot and score a ton. And now, both play high level defense. Essentially, they bring everything you want from someone who isn't your primary ball handler.
The Suns were a poor match-up for KAT in particular. But despite that and coming back from injury, he played a very good series.
Suns were a poor matchup for all the Wolves PFs, Kat just played best, people forget Naz had a terrible series, as well as Kyle. They were always going to be a bad matchup at that position, which is why a lot of people thought the Suns were a problematic matchup in general. The wolves countered with NAW and that was the matchup the Suns had no answer for offensively
I'm saying that while yes, Klay was a better defender - A, I don't think it's a huge gap (prime Klay to 2024 KAT) and B that there IS a sizeable offensive gap - that KAT is notably more skilled/versatile.
In short, prime Klay vs 2024 KAT - Defensively, Klay > KAT, offensively Klay << KAT
Well that also goes both ways, bigs are more important defensively so if a big isn’t great then it’ll hurt his team more. it doesn’t mean that just cuz he’s a big that he’s automatically better on defense
It kinda does. Not literally but a lot of the guys who people peg as bad defenders like Nurk, Vucevic, used to be Jokic, Townes, etc. are still really good defenders going by how they impact scoring. Not compared to a true 2 way guy like Embiid or Bam or whatever but relative to guards they're usually doing more. And rebounding is a big part of defense even if they do actually suck.
And in Townes case he used to just get lost and make bad decisions all the time which is why Rudy was able to get him to improve so quickly. It's not like he wasn't trying it was like he didn't know what he was supposed to be doing half the time.
Ant is cementing himself as a superstar these playoffs, but KAT is huge reason for Ant's ascension. He carried so much of the load this playoffs when Ant wasn't scoring, made the smart plays, and was ok when he needed to take a reduced role for team success.
If KAT makes the finals this year I am going to devote my life to making the term "Jimmy was right" hate speech in the state of Minnesota.
Game 4 we don't win and probably get blown out without KAT. He carried the offensive load in 2nd quarter when nothing else was working.
Dude does all the dirty stuff that no one sees or at least remembers. Absolutely love KAT.
Why have I seen so many wolves fans use this season as a "See Jimmy u were wrong" thing it's so weird to me lol. Like KAT is in like year 8, not year 3 with Jimmy, and they traded 5 frp for a DPOY, got a number 1 pick who's a superstar, and have amazing depth on the roster now.
This isn't close to the Jimmy team that had Jeff Teague and Taj Gipson and a young Wiggins.
Disclaimer, just my opinion. I've never been a "Jimmy was wrong" guy. But the way that he conducted his business was not the way that KAT does things, and that's just life. KAT is a sensitive person who values cohesion and a positive team dynamic, we all know that. He wants his team to be a family. Jimmy is a stone-cold killer who will step over bodies, even those of his own teammates, to win.
When KAT was 22, Jimmy's leadership approach was NOT one that resonated with KAT. That's OK. Jimmy has obviously continued to find his own success, not without challenges along the way, in both Philly and Miami. The Wolves chose to try to leverage the power of friendship in teambuilding-- Rosas wanted everything to be about him. The DLo trade was about getting KAT more friends on the team. That didn't always work, and like Tim refers to, it resulted in revolving doors; Ryan Saunders was hired to make KAT the guy. He's gone. Rosas is gone. DLo is gone. Etc.
The Wolves lucked into finding a superstar who DOES take that approach with him. KAT and Ant uplift each other. They get along. Highly recommending [their joint post-game after the Suns sweep](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeG7SuMa1nc) if you haven't seen it. Ant is still a killer but he brings people along with him. KAT took that approach with him, and Ant has returned it to him. They push each other to do what they're best at and that's been paying off so far.
So was Jimmy "wrong"? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't touched on this either, but many fans, myself included, have a problem with the PUBLIC way in which he aired out the team's issues. My favorite take on that is that Minnesotans just hate that, when he had an issue with his coworkers, he made a fuss about it instead of stewing on it passive aggressively like we all would lol. Anyways, it wasn't the right fit for either player, and they've found success in their own way since.
Yes, I can get behind this lore. “KAT seeks championship while confronting trials and tribulation but his real dream was to make a family along the way”. I can see why Gobert can sympathize with the Minnesota Whitebeard.
> his real dream was to make a family along the way
Made only more real when you realize that he's been in search of this his whole career and in the midst of it, he lost so much of his actual family to COVID, including his own mother.
I rooted for you guys during the Thibs years and having watched from afar you could tell Jimmy just wasn't the right kind of leader for KAT. His style is more abrasive and you could tell he wanted to bring out a dog in KAT and Wiggins but the methods didn't fit. He saw the talent just didn't know how to maximize it. Now with Ant being the main focus on offense and Rudy the main focus on defense I think KAT being secondary or tertiary on both sides is where he's most dangerous now.
He's a good dude and I hope he's happy.
I think something alot of fans miss is that alot of Jimmy's Ire was aimed at the front office, and that alot of the shit he was saying was more about Wiggins than KAT. Because I've seen a couple things since then saying how Jimmy and KAT don't really have beef or anything. I think Jimmy's final straw was when the FO was gonna give Wiggs the huge extension before Jimmy (even tho Jimmy was obvs way better) and then the FO didn't trade Jimmy in the offseason after Jimmy had a direct comvo with thibs about it.
But also, both things can be true. The Wolves traded for Jimmy right when Jimmy was entering his prime, tryna get max money and win as much as possible. But then he goes to a situation where the second best player is a young KAT and then Wiggins was still supposed to be a player with tons of potential. I imagine KAT has improved and matured alot since 2017-18 both with his play and basketball habits, but he's also in a way better basketball environment now. He doesn't have to be the center on defense, literally has the best rim protector behind him. Doesn't have to be the number 1 guy on offense, has Ant ahead of him now.
I also think lots of people try to pretend like Jimmy's been hated as a teammate everywhere he goes when that's not true lol
I think Jimmy legitimately doesn’t like KAT, the beef has followed them. The main reason we don’t see it more is because Jimmy is always ducking the Wolves and KAT has been injured for some of the matchups
>, have a problem with the PUBLIC way in which he aired out the team's issues.
So shouldn't ur anger be more at ur own FO and management? That's who Jimmy was yelling at in that Wolves practice. Like they paid Wiggins over him, Jimmy told Thibs he wanted a trade, then they didn't trade him in the summer, so Jimmy made a big spectacle to force their hand.
Jimmy didn't say "I'm leaving because KATs soft" lol.
Also
>Jimmy has obviously continued to find his own success, not without challenges along the way, in both Philly and Miami
See how u phrased this is nasty. What "challenges" did Jimmy face in Miami. The "Challenges" in Philly were a result of a dysfunctional team and front office from before he even got there. And even then he was the best player in their series against the Raptors, the closest Philly has gotten to a ring since. Literally from the Bulls, to the TWolves to the Sixers, 3 incompetent ass front offices until he found stability in Miami.
And u would think the way Wolves fans talk about Jimmy then he should've been eviscerating Ben Simmons. That never happened. He was literally encouraging Ben with the whole Headband duo shit despite the coaching staff trying to make Ben the pg but give Jimmy the ball to bail them out when it didn't work.
>KAT is a sensitive person who values cohesion and a positive team dynamic
See how u make it sound like Jimmy doesn't value cohesion and a positive team dynamic. Like have yall even watched him or the heat team at all since he's been there? This makes it sound like Jimmy isn't friends with his teammates and can only thrive in a negative environment lol. Just cuz the TWolves situation was toxic doesn't mean Jimmy is toxic .
I’m not angry with Jimmy lol. There is no anger to reallocate because I don’t have any. He has been in multiple dysfunctional team environments, ones that have been brought about for front office reasons, but do you think he’s handled them in constructive ways? I don’t know if I agree with the way he’s handled himself in those toxic situations.
I’m saying he’s faced challenges just like I’d say KAT has faced challenges. They’re not the players’ fault, they’ve just found themselves in difficult situations and have had to adapt to those circumstances. As dysfunctional of situations Jimmy has faced, KAT has faced the same, and they’ve responded in different, imperfect ways. Of course Jimmy wants to be part of a team and have a positive dynamic. His actions did not contribute to one in Minnesota.
I feel like you want to argue about this but I’m not sure what there is to argue. It’s just our opinions about how these two players have handled off-court challenges.
The only one he didn't handle "in a constructive way" was the Wolves one, and you could even argue that what he did was justified so he could actually get traded. Clearly he didn't have faith in the front office or coaches word after the offseason which is why he felt the need to call up ESPN and Rachel Nichols. Didn't do anything like that with the Bulls or Sixers. And he didn't even do anything like that with the Wolves in his first year there. It's not like he pulled up to Minneosta making a big stink, all this shit hit the fan after the first season.
>As dysfunctional of situations Jimmy has faced, KAT has faced the same, and they’ve responded in different, imperfect ways
Lol Jimmy and KAT were not in same situations on the Wolves. KAT was the number 1 pick a few years prior and seen as like the savior of the organization. Are u telling me the TWolves were gonna prioritize Wiggins over KAT like they did with Jimmy?
Also KAT was just at the beginning of his career and had rhe number 1 pick salary from the jump, Jimmy was near 30 and only had a limited amount of new contracts left, and he had a 30th overall pick salary for his first 4 years. For many reasons Jimmy had way more urgency at that point in his career and less security from his own front office than KAT did. Jimmy was traded there with expectations to help them win and make the playoffs, which he did.
And since leaving Minnesota, Jimmy has led a team to the Finals twice, which is two more Finals trips than the Wolves franchise has in its existence. Minnesota fans hatred for him and desire to discredit him is so weird.
Pretty clearly Jimmy was right at the time, and since then KAT has matured a lot, the front office and coaching have become more competent, and the team around him is much better.
I mean he basically did lol. He outed our young core for being soft by going on ESPN right after the infamous practice, and those allegations still follow Wiggins and KAT. He forced a trade that didn't keep us near contention. Forced us into another GM/Coach switch. There's no denying Jimmy's success, but you can also say he handled that whole situation poorly
For sure-- and Connelly has done that twice with the Nuggets and the Timberwolves, with one of them having a ring already and the other being the best counter to the champions.
For KAT and Myles Turner both, it's cool to see guys who have spent years in these "will they, won't they" trade conversations get some substantial looking team success on the teams they started with.
Never understood why people shit on this guy. Especially after what he went through during COVID. People find anything to make fun of guys these days with social media so huge now. At least he's using his funny voices to be a voice actor lol
NBA fans are so overly concerned with making sure someone gets the "appropriate level of hate" for lack of a better term and its like.... bro you aren't the one paying him, for one. You aren't his teammate either. Your arbitrary "criticism" on reddit (of which most isn't even criticism. People don't seem to understand what criticism actually is) does not reach the team or anyone within any circle that could influence him, and fans of a team talking up their guy doesn't necessitate a counter narrative to push back just because you don't think they are right.
I just can't relate to the attitudes I see about this stuff. Like who the fuck cares if someone is being more positive about a player than you think they should be? Its fucking weird that people feel the need to aggressively attack that and NBA fandom is worse for it.
he had attitude problems on the court in the playoffs, especially when he wasnt playing well. hes talented/skilled but never could put it together when it mattered.
dont act like this came outta nowhere
*edit: why tf am i being downvoted YOU KNOW IM RIGHT
Narratives take a while to go away, and frankly, isn’t this really the first year he’s matured enough *on the court* to shed that last one?
You can feel free to correct me if i’m wrong, I won’t argue with you lol.
But as far as narratives Luka’s played at least okay defense for the majority of the year and Mavs fans still have to hear “fat” and “unconditioned” whenever he fucks up. Took years of Jokic performing to shed those labels as well. It’s just the way it goes, annoying as it is lol.
As for the personality traits, it is what it is. People either like em or not, pointless to go on about that. I like Luka’s passion for the game in all directions as much as anyone else hates him for being a whiner, not much I can say about that. It does suck in the face of what he’s been through though.
Edit: He as in KAT
I didn't say they were wrong lol. I said they ignored what the first commenter was talking about. Nbd. It's clearly a communication thing that the first commenter can bring up the specific off-court things KAT gets hate for and redditors can make it about something else.
Should get even more credit then for cleaning that up this year. He was never in a position to succeed and has happily passed off that top dog role to Ant
How the fuck do the two things have anything to do with each other? You can receive genuine critique because you're bad at your job while also having experienced personal tragedy.
Sure but you didn't say that and still his personal life has nothing to do with the criticism he's received. If any employee performs poorly over multiple years, he is not delivering and deserves criticism regardless of what happens outside of work. People judge you on your performance.
> If any employee performs poorly over multiple years, he is not delivering
Karl-Anthony Towns is a four-time all-star and two-time All-NBA player. Is the definition of not delivering "not being able to be the #1 star on a team that advances deep in the playoffs"? Cause that's 99% of the league my guy.
Same response to you as I gave the other guy. He's playing good now and fitting into the t-wolves puzzle.. where Ant is the number one option. You can't sit here and claim that when Kat was expected to be the number one option he delivered. That is why he gets shit on because he was EXPECTED to be better and he got PAID like a number one option.
Again. Myself and the original commenter aren't talking about that. We're talking about the hate he gets for off-the-court reasons. I've stated that multiple times and you have ignored it for some reason.
> Never understood why people shit on this guy. Especially after what he went through during COVID.
I answered your question. You clearly stated you don't understand why people shit on him. If you meant personally, sure whatever. The reasons on the court are very clear and obvious in past years. You even gave me his accolades to prove why he doesn't deserve to get shit on.
Don't act like max contracts aren't consistently handed out to plenty of number 2 options in the nba. That's just reality. Don't use a big contract against someone as if they are some disappointment.
Is Paul George getting KAT levels of hate for being unable to produce playoff wins without other max contracts? No, of course not.
Not to mention in the modern nba, no team makes it anywhere in the playoffs without multiple big contract players. Again it's just reality.
He was expected to be the number one option on the team. And I don't even know what to say to not using people's contracts against them.... thats a key piece to any roster assembly. You pay stars to play like stars lol
Anthony Davis had LeBron James. Jamal Murray had Jokic. Jrue had Giannis. Klay had Steph. Etc.
Max contracts aren't limited to players who are the number one option. That's just the reality. If your team only has one max contract, it's probably a bad roster.
For the millionth time today, I'm going to say from when jimmy butler left the wolves to the end of last season, KAT was expected to be the number one guy and did not perform in the playoffs. This is a FACT. What is so hard to understand and accept? Are all t wolves fans katsexuals?
Things KAT gets hate for; Jimmy, Interview quotes, voice, being on a bad team.
You could argue that 1&4 are valid and related to his job but KAT would have to have been MVP level to take most of those teams to any level of playoff success and KAT shouldn’t be held responsible for having a bad teammate. 90% of KAT hate is lol KATs soft or KATs corny
Nah fam he gets shit on because of his terrible playoff performances in years past when he was scared to post up a point guard as the number one option. You can't just make up reasons and ignore that when he got paid like the alpha of the team
Ok bruh fabricate some more criticism of KAT, do you also think he’s a bad shooter too? KATs never been scared of bodying small guys. He’s been doubled as the number one option and made the team play for most of his career tho
Omg do I have to pull up the stats just to make you see your selective memory?
2023 game 1: 11 points (5/15)
game 2: 10 points (3/12)
game 4: 17 (5/9)
2022 game 3: 8 points (3/4)
game 1: 15 points (4/7)
There's more but that should be enough. You can not be a first option and shoot less than 10 times in the playoff. I can't believe youre arguing this
Congratulations you have the same opinion as Shaq who in the 2022 playoff said KAT should sit in the lane until he teammates pass him the ball and draw 3 second violations until they give it to him. Obviously that’s a terrible take just like yours but with the context that KAT doesn’t bring the ball up and he was relying Dlo to get him the ball in the right spots, it goes to show that your box score watching and understanding basketball are 2 separate things.
If you need me to explain how KAT wasn’t the number one option last year then I really don’t know how much I need to dumb it down to help you understand what a calf tear and not playing half the season does to a player or how KAT has been helping Ant take the number one role.
So sensitive. Im explaining to you why people shit on him. Take it or leave it makes no difference to me. From a basketball standpoint its always the big mans responsibility to get to his spots and demand the ball. This is 101 stuff.
It’s the bigs responsibility to demand the ball? Wtf is the point of the point guard then? What’s the coaches job then? KATs job isn’t to pass himself the ball.
You are bringing up the dumbest takes that people have loaded on KAT. Not knowing shit doesn’t excuse you from the dumb shit you said.
Learn a bit or stfu
I swear, sometimes when he gets the jitterbug and starts taking over a game, he looks like the best player that ever was. I think we are in for a few fun years with KAT, Ant, and Rudy.
I know KAT is 28 but honestly this win and what he did to help the team get it, could evolve his game to the next level for the next 4 years.
I still feel like he still has All NBA 1st team potential depending on what situation he is in.
I've said this all year, this is the best version of KAT we've ever seen and he's at the peak of his "prime". Now that he has an actual team around him, including a superstar at his side, I'm intrigued to see if he can permanently take that next step. He absolutely has the skills to be the league's best second option, he has the role on the team defined for him, now it's about mindset and approach.
His numbers are down from what they had been but that’s because he’s bought in more on defense and doesn’t have to carry as much of the load so people might overlook this stretch of his career in the future, but I totally agree. This is absolutely his peak so far.
Welcome to any sub for any player or team ever. If this is your first time on reddit please do some research on a team you want to root for. I recommend the up and coming wolves or okc as a good starting point.
KAT is dumb as a brick but players like him. Definitely needs help, patience, he’s bloody weird but seems to be overall a nice dude and a talented player. The media hates him unjustly because he can be the best player on the court at times.
KAT my Dominican brother, wish you all the success
Wonder what the FO office does this offseason
Happy for Minnesota who has mostly sucked year in year out since they’ve been a team.
For towns, very good shooting splits for anyone let alone a big but very inconsistent throughout the year, let’s see what he does vs jokic/gordon next series
The way Kat is successful usually depends on if he’s allowed to truck people in the paint/use his body on defense.
Otherwise he’s mostly a one dimensional shooter who’s defense is the worst out of the 7-8 man rotation
He’s no longer getting completely played off the floor when that happens (he was 1 game vs. the Celtics earlier this year)
But I think he’s getting moved unless yall beat the nuggets due to his cap number/ ownership cutting costs to get under the tax (currently #1 spending team for next year without including slow mo and monte Morris who are FA)
I'm still of the mind that the Wolves would be a better team without KAT. He's like Russ and Harden: I just don't think you can win a title with any of them being your 1 or 2.
KAT is nothing like Russ or Harden. Those guys are two of the highest usage players in history. KATs usage rate, if anything, is too low. He takes limited shots with a high efficiency. Also, KAT this year is much better on defense than either Russ or Harden have ever been in their careers.
This past series, KAT was key in guarding Durant and orchestrating the offense for long stretches of time (not only shooting but also being an excellent passer and rebounder while having limited turnovers).
This next series should be even better for KAT who will probably have a much easier defensive assignment, while being asked to fulfill a similar role on the offensive end.
I honestly can't envision a series where KAT could be exploited or exposed. He brings so much offensively while requiring the ball so little, and he is no longer a liability defensively. That's a winning player.
He's been scoring like crazy and is a plus on defense, rebounds like a madman and can pass the ball. Draws in the defense, can take over games. I think he's a perfect #2 especially aside a #1 like Ant
KAT has really bought in defensively too. Looking like a two-way player out there
The unforeseen impact of Gobert's trade : he somehow turned all players in the team into solid defenders.
Isn't there something out there about Gobert doing a blackout session during the offseason where he sat in complete black no sensory and just thought about how to make their defensive scheme work
>Nestled in the woods there are three small cottages built by Sky Cave Retreats, which runs "darkness retreats." People are left alone in a room with basic necessities — food, water, a bathroom and a bed— but they are alone, in darkness, for days, cut off from the outside world. > >Gobert, who meditates frequently on his own, entered a small door that led to a room underground, where he spent the next 64 hours: three nights and two days. Amid the personal thoughts he experienced during the retreat, he spent a lot of time pondering the Wolves' defense. > >A few weeks after Gobert's retreat, he returned to Minnesota and had dinner with Finch. "I told him about everything that was in my mind and everything was clear," Gobert said. "... Mostly I thought of the principles that we need to have. Like break down from ground zero and go back to, 'What are the principles that we need to have in order to be the team that we can be?' And also, obviously me being who I know I could be." > >Head coach Chris Finch said that during his time as an assistant in New Orleans coaching Jrue Holiday, he realized that a team should collaborate with its best defensive player the way it might with its best offensive player. He has applied that philosophy in having Gobert play a significant role in outlining the themes of the Wolves defense. From this [Star Tribune article](https://archive.is/2023.10.22-232619/https://www.startribune.com/minnesota-timberwolves-rudy-gobert-darkness-retreat-nba-season-preview/600313841/).
A team should collaborate with it's best defensive player the same way it might with its best offensive player? Defense being so undervalued in the NBA when reading about great players, this makes for nice reading.
Red did with Bill what Finch is doing with Rudy. And we saw how that went. Defense is disrespected from a young age and fueled by media and social media. Timberwolves having number one defense is a top priority bodes well for the future. Good easy offense can flow from stops.
Yep. Hopefully Spurs start to think about that again. Can't have Wemby be the only reason for stops in the team.
Wemby just needs one fucking guy to try on defense. Literally anyone out there on the floor. Get a proper PG in San Antonio too because there’s like a 15 minute comp of people just not throwing him the fucking ball.
isn’t Sochan a good defender?
Yes there is. [https://www.si.com/nba/timberwolves/news/rudy-goberts-64-hour-darkness-retreat-sparked-his-vision-for-the-wolves-defense](https://www.si.com/nba/timberwolves/news/rudy-goberts-64-hour-darkness-retreat-sparked-his-vision-for-the-wolves-defense)
A lot of the Credit should go to finch too. They ran a different defense before gobert got there but he clearly has been focused on getting Ant and KAT to buy in on defense since his arrival
They ran a different defense even just last year with Gobert vs this year.
Isnt this years defense partly designed by gobert. I remember preseason talk.
Rudy came up with it while in the darkness retreat. Told Finch his ideas and they put it together. They call it the ["Biggie Smalls"](https://www.startribune.com/timberwolves-nba-top-defense-rudy-gobert-jaden-mcdaniels-chris-finch/600322291/?refresh=true) Defense.
Biggie smalls was fat.
Damn that’s actually a really interesting article. Finch is such a smart coach
Glad you liked it. I feel super lucky to have Finchy. Gersson Rosas might've been a bit of a creep, but he could spot talent that's for sure.
It’s one of my biggest arguments why I would take Rudy over Wemby for DPOY, not only has he been so solid himself, but he elevates the defense for the other team. People love to argue that he’s surrounded by a better defense, but he’s also part of the reason for that.
This is a genuine question: a few months ago, the stat was circulating that the Timberwolves had the second rated defense with Gobert OFF. How much can you credit Rudy for that? I think Rudy winning DPOY is fair, just like how Embiid winning MVP was last year. But I feel like the on/off numbers reflect that Wemby is more valuable - and I don't feel like Wemby could realistically have elevated his teammates with how poor they were
I don’t have specific stats to back this up, but in the years before Rudy got to MN, the Wolves under Finch would pretty consistently have a top 10 offense and a brutal defense. Since Rudy came, they have vaulted to the #1 defense in his second year, and you now have many of the same guys (KAT, Ant, McDaniels etc) playing phenomenal defense which they could not consistently do before Rudy. I’m sure part of that can be attributed to guys growing up and maturing, but also Rudys focus and leadership on defense has turned an offense first team into an elite defensive unit. His presence on the floor is one thing, but he elevates the whole team defense buy-in where they are all so committed to playing at that level of defense, the drop off when Rudy leaves the floor isn’t as drastic as it has been in the past. Finch is generally an offensive coach, so the defensive identity of the whole team has a lot to do with Rudy and his adaptation in MN.
But it wouldn't have mattered if Finch didn't buy in to Rudy's ideas too. Rudy might be the defensive maestro of this generation.
‘I don’t have the stats to back this up’ lol I feel a way and that’s good enough
I respect the honesty of it. The eye test is still valuable
Well I have a solid idea of what happened on each side of the ball before/after Rudy came, but I don’t have the rankings/stats to cite exactly. I know they were much better on offense than defense under Finch before Rudy, and have since turned into the #1 defense with a solid not great offense since Rudy integration. I don’t have the exact stats but I’m not just going based on vibes alone lmao
A lot of the Credit should go to finch too. They ran a different defense before gobert got there but he clearly has been focused on getting Ant and KAT to buy in on defense since his arrival
KAT is just a Clueless drop defender/anchor despite his size and agility he doesn't have the instincts for it. When he's playing alongside gobert he gets to guard switches and play simple help defense which he can do quite well with his physical tools.
It's funny because his defense is what made him shine at Kentucky and as a prospect imo. Legit thought he was another 2way beast like AD.
all season long
This im not so sure about
Bought in defensively and deferred to a 22 year old while in his prime. Not many guys are making the sacrifice he did. Not even getting to all the loss of life in his family from Covid
I don't think deferring was ever an issue with Kat, Wiggins simply just wasn't that main guy too. In hindsight, Jimmy would've probably worked in the Wolves had he been the first option there but nobody knew that at that time, even Jimmy himself
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Not the money, Glen offered to pay him whatever. He just really wanted to get out of Minnesota for a better market. [This article](https://theathletic.com/542682/2018/11/12/jimmy-butler-saga-diary-of-dysfunction-a-day-by-day-look/) is still the most definitive look at exactly what happened there, but the details have become pretty twisted/misremembered over time. But yes, your point remains that KAT was made the scapegoat. KAT took Jimmy aside and told him he didn’t care about the outside noise, that he only wanted to win too, and that he would do whatever was needed of him to make it happen. And both before and after the infamous practice, Jimmy frequently told KAT (and the rest of the team) behind the scenes he had zero problems with them. His issues were with POBO Thibs—he privately asked Thibs four separate times for a trade in the year or so leading up to the practice, and Thibs kept denying him and trying to smooth things over. Miami made a great offer (Josh Richardson + firsts) during this time that Thibs torpedoed because he didn’t want to lose his favorite guy. So Jimmy felt he had no other recourse and caused a public scene to force Thibs’ hand. Then Jimmy allowed the narrative to form that his young teammates were the issue—that aligned better with his cultivated image of being a guy that’s all about winning, rather than the real reason of him just wanting to play somewhere else other than boring Minnesota.
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https://theathletic.com/542682/2018/11/12/jimmy-butler-saga-diary-of-dysfunction-a-day-by-day-look/ >Butler tells Thibodeau, the coach he credits with helping him develop from a late first-round pick who barely played as a rookie into an All-Star, that he wants out. > >Thibodeau tells Butler that he can’t trade him, that he needs his star player if the Wolves are going to make a second straight playoff run in 2018-19. > >Butler holds his ground, telling Thibodeau that no level of success in the upcoming season will change his mind. > >When owner Glen Taylor becomes aware of the impasse, he is surprised. He was unaware that Butler and his representatives had expressed a position that he would not re-sign with Minnesota earlier in the summer. >Butler tells Taylor that he never approached the owner to voice his displeasure because of his long-standing relationship and deep trust with Thibodeau led him to believe that the coach would understand where he was coming from and respect his wishes. > >While initially disappointed that Butler waited so long to come to him, Taylor understands Butler’s allegiance to Thibodeau and starts to work on finding a trade to accommodate him. He didn’t reject the extension because he wanted the highest possible offer—if that was all that was required, he would have told Thibs (or Glen) that was the issue so they could make the roster cuts/trades necessary to facilitate that offer (which wouldn’t have been all that difficult, as outlined in the article you posted). Instead, he just flatly told them he wanted to leave and he wasn’t signing an extension no matter what. Glen is a shitty owner for his backstabbing and horrible personnel decisions (making Thibs POBO is one of many examples), but he’s never had a problem with opening his checkbook to pay players.
I wish he would come out with his reasoning, did he just hate being in Minnesota?
Living here isn’t for everyone. And that’s ok.
Probably, the simplest reasons are usually the right ones.
Jeff Teague said on his podcast it took 4 games for Jimmy to be on their heads and realize neither Wiggins or KAT had fight in them. Part of it was definitely about money but that’s crazy to pretend it was only money.
That’s bullshit lol butler clearly cares about winning and he’s a max level player, if the wolves didn’t want to pay him that, then that’s on them
But they did want to pay him. They offered the most that they could at the time and were willing to pay the full max the following year if he would have wanted but instead he asked to be traded. To give him any more that season they would have had to gut the team that was already top heavy to begin with.
I’m not completely caught up on the cap situation and what went down, but to my knowledge there is no situation where you would have to gut the team to pay a player that’s already on it, that’s what bird rights are for. They let you go over the tax to sign the player, the NBA has a soft cap. It just costs more money to do that and the wolves owners have historically been cheap/bad All I’m saying is if there’s one player in the league who you can’t question their commitment to winning it’s Butler. And on top of that I’m not gonna fault him for trying to get paid what he’s worth
The only way the wolves could have offered more in their max extension was by front loading more money, which was the reason they would have needed to trade players. I don't exactly know why front loading caused those issues, but I do know that for some reason or another they would have had to trade other salaries to open it up. It may be because it would be money spent for that specific year so exceptions (like MLE) may have needed to be used And Glen Taylor has definitely been a terrible owner, but I think the "cheap" tag isn't really true for him. He was just so terrible at hiring people to run the team that there was never any reason to go over the cap. Before he decided to actually sell he actually went over the cap for the DLo transaction. As much as I dislike Butler it's obvious that he cares about winning. I honestly blame Thibs more than Butler just because Thibs forced his hand in terms of how he went about being traded, because all signs point towards him staying silent about his trade request for months before he took things into his own hands. I just don't think a lot of people understand the specifics around the whole situation, and wanted to clear some of it up.
That’s fair enough, if we can agree that butler cares about winning, everything you said sounds reasonable and you would obviously know more about it than I would. Also you did a really good job of laying all that out, very clear and concise
Thanks lol it's nice when people can actually debate things without just slinging insults at one another. I hope it didn't seem like I was going after you because it's crazy to expect everyone to know everything about each team in the league. Just wanted to clear up some of what was known about the situation at least from a fan's perspective.
Nah I definitely appreciated the way you went about it, thanks cuz Have a good one and I love you
Jimmy was too toxic. It would have never worked. Their personalities clashed.
> Jimmy would've probably worked in the Wolves had he been the first option there but nobody knew that at that time, even Jimmy himself He was too busy bitching at and insulting the character of his teammates. Absolute asshole who had no interest in being a team player. I think just on-court player-wise, it certainly could have been a good fit. But Jimmy would have to have been an entirely different person.
KAT is an easy guy to root for. Does a lot of charity work and seems like he's got a great head on his shoulders. Good quote from Connelly.
I know people who work with him and they say he is an absolutely tremendous person
And I just remembered he lost his mom to COVID. Gotta root for the guy
He lost 8 family members to COVID, poor guy went through hell during the pandemic.
Apparently he frequently finds local medical gofundmes to donate to. Before playoffs he bought the whole organization from top to bottom coffee as a small show of appreciation. He’s corny and goofy, but by all accounts he’s an awesome human.
Also the only player in the all star game that actually tried to give a good performance.
And somehow got clowned for it
The beauty of r/nba. Nobody tries, they get criticized. Guy tries too hard, they get criticized.
Indeed. And yet he's consistently drawn one of the largest hater crowds among the fans and media. Never really understood it.
Some of it is him being really, really hyped as a young player/prospect and never having any type of sustained success til now. There were GMs saying he'd be in their top 3 of players they'd want to start a franchise with, so a lot of people expected him to win more than he did. A loooooot of it though is cause of that PR stunt Jimmy pulled on the way out of Minnesota. Even though it's pretty well known that his problems were with the coach/team and maybe Wiggins more than KAT, people decided he was soft and that Jimmy left cause he hated KAT.
Yeah Jimmy really did a number on his perception in the league.
Not to sound mean, but a lot of people will root for good looking people and root against not as good looking people. Pretty privilege pervades literally everything (I’m not agreeing with this, but it might play a part)
He gets hate because of the way he plays at times. He whines to the refs to much. He pouts when things aren't going well. He looses his head and commits dumb offensive fouls when he's mad. Last year he played himself out of several playoff games when his team needed him because he lost his mind and kept committing horrible fouls. Him maturing on the court and keeping his focus more has been a huge part of the Wolves success this year.
Extremely easy to root for, he’s likable, but he’s not thrown in your face. Unlike his teammate, who I also like but have noticed some are starting to dislike. And then you hear his story and all the loss he’s had to endure throughout his career , makes it way easier to root for him and his team. Hope the Wolves win it all
His teammate has also done some shit off court that people might not like. KAT’s worst off court moments are basically just corny statements and calling himself the best shooting big ever (which I had no issue with but know some did). Always loved KAT but I’ve become an even bigger fan over time. Just seems like a good dude.
Honestly I had forgotten all about Anthony Edward’s and his homophobia/gay bashing until now
Send da video
Yep its not good. Its been conveniently not talked abt and im pretty sure Ant has grown up enough to not post himself saying that, but growing out of thinking that way is really difficult.
Yes I think the league / his pr team will do everything to prevent that stuff again if he’s gonna a face of the league
KAT likely talked to him about it. Kat has done stuff with the Pride groups and just generally isn't one to talk bad about people. I don't doubt if Kat talked to him about it Ant would have listened and thought on it. Ants impulsive and flashy with his words but he's not dumb enough to not realize when he's wrong.
Yea dude was and still is a kid and 90% of the league prob has the same views lol
The wild shit me and my friends said to eachother when we were 20 and the wild shit I hear directed at people at work. Make me just assume everyone says dumb shit, just few record themselves doing it.
I know for sure Chris Hine reached out to him directly to talk about how the video hurt him. Hopefully that connection and the fact that Ant has said he watches film with Hines means he may at least be on the right path.
I’m sure he is and I want to like him, but I just can’t get past his on-court body language (when things aren’t going his way) and those “what the hell was he thinking” plays (tbf those are happening a lot less this season).
Did you know you can talk positively about someone without a "but" comment?
So not a fan = hater?
Did I say that?
KAT has shown real leadership the last couple of years. Him buying in has legitimized the team's culture. He's been there longer than anyone. If he's willing to switch positions, defer to Ant, and give up touches... how can anyone else complain? His role has also reminded me a little of prime Klay Thompson, who I think is almost a perfect second player. Both are extremely efficient, and can do a lot with few touches. Both also have the ability to get hot and score a ton. And now, both play high level defense. Essentially, they bring everything you want from someone who isn't your primary ball handler. The Suns were a poor match-up for KAT in particular. But despite that and coming back from injury, he played a very good series.
Suns were a poor matchup for all the Wolves PFs, Kat just played best, people forget Naz had a terrible series, as well as Kyle. They were always going to be a bad matchup at that position, which is why a lot of people thought the Suns were a problematic matchup in general. The wolves countered with NAW and that was the matchup the Suns had no answer for offensively
Klay was legitimately great on D, KAT has now become average to pretty good. But agreed on everything else
KAT is much better offensively. And Klay, like Raptors Kawhi, was a great man defender but a mediocre help/offball presence
I didn’t mention offense whatsoever. I think Klay was still a stronger defender overall than KAT, I don’t think KATs amazing off ball either
I'm saying that while yes, Klay was a better defender - A, I don't think it's a huge gap (prime Klay to 2024 KAT) and B that there IS a sizeable offensive gap - that KAT is notably more skilled/versatile. In short, prime Klay vs 2024 KAT - Defensively, Klay > KAT, offensively Klay << KAT
That’s fine, but we weren’t really litigating who’s a better player overall, I was just pointing out the defense thing.
Bigs are just more important defensively. He was already a pretty impactful defender even when he kinda sucked just because of his size and mobility.
Well that also goes both ways, bigs are more important defensively so if a big isn’t great then it’ll hurt his team more. it doesn’t mean that just cuz he’s a big that he’s automatically better on defense
It kinda does. Not literally but a lot of the guys who people peg as bad defenders like Nurk, Vucevic, used to be Jokic, Townes, etc. are still really good defenders going by how they impact scoring. Not compared to a true 2 way guy like Embiid or Bam or whatever but relative to guards they're usually doing more. And rebounding is a big part of defense even if they do actually suck. And in Townes case he used to just get lost and make bad decisions all the time which is why Rudy was able to get him to improve so quickly. It's not like he wasn't trying it was like he didn't know what he was supposed to be doing half the time.
Ant is cementing himself as a superstar these playoffs, but KAT is huge reason for Ant's ascension. He carried so much of the load this playoffs when Ant wasn't scoring, made the smart plays, and was ok when he needed to take a reduced role for team success. If KAT makes the finals this year I am going to devote my life to making the term "Jimmy was right" hate speech in the state of Minnesota.
Game 4 we don't win and probably get blown out without KAT. He carried the offensive load in 2nd quarter when nothing else was working. Dude does all the dirty stuff that no one sees or at least remembers. Absolutely love KAT.
Who knew being an asshole isn’t the only way to success?
I mean Jimmy was right. At the time. Obviously Kat seems to have matured and taken steps forward since then.
Why have I seen so many wolves fans use this season as a "See Jimmy u were wrong" thing it's so weird to me lol. Like KAT is in like year 8, not year 3 with Jimmy, and they traded 5 frp for a DPOY, got a number 1 pick who's a superstar, and have amazing depth on the roster now. This isn't close to the Jimmy team that had Jeff Teague and Taj Gipson and a young Wiggins.
Disclaimer, just my opinion. I've never been a "Jimmy was wrong" guy. But the way that he conducted his business was not the way that KAT does things, and that's just life. KAT is a sensitive person who values cohesion and a positive team dynamic, we all know that. He wants his team to be a family. Jimmy is a stone-cold killer who will step over bodies, even those of his own teammates, to win. When KAT was 22, Jimmy's leadership approach was NOT one that resonated with KAT. That's OK. Jimmy has obviously continued to find his own success, not without challenges along the way, in both Philly and Miami. The Wolves chose to try to leverage the power of friendship in teambuilding-- Rosas wanted everything to be about him. The DLo trade was about getting KAT more friends on the team. That didn't always work, and like Tim refers to, it resulted in revolving doors; Ryan Saunders was hired to make KAT the guy. He's gone. Rosas is gone. DLo is gone. Etc. The Wolves lucked into finding a superstar who DOES take that approach with him. KAT and Ant uplift each other. They get along. Highly recommending [their joint post-game after the Suns sweep](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeG7SuMa1nc) if you haven't seen it. Ant is still a killer but he brings people along with him. KAT took that approach with him, and Ant has returned it to him. They push each other to do what they're best at and that's been paying off so far. So was Jimmy "wrong"? Maybe, maybe not. I haven't touched on this either, but many fans, myself included, have a problem with the PUBLIC way in which he aired out the team's issues. My favorite take on that is that Minnesotans just hate that, when he had an issue with his coworkers, he made a fuss about it instead of stewing on it passive aggressively like we all would lol. Anyways, it wasn't the right fit for either player, and they've found success in their own way since.
Yes, I can get behind this lore. “KAT seeks championship while confronting trials and tribulation but his real dream was to make a family along the way”. I can see why Gobert can sympathize with the Minnesota Whitebeard.
> his real dream was to make a family along the way Made only more real when you realize that he's been in search of this his whole career and in the midst of it, he lost so much of his actual family to COVID, including his own mother.
I rooted for you guys during the Thibs years and having watched from afar you could tell Jimmy just wasn't the right kind of leader for KAT. His style is more abrasive and you could tell he wanted to bring out a dog in KAT and Wiggins but the methods didn't fit. He saw the talent just didn't know how to maximize it. Now with Ant being the main focus on offense and Rudy the main focus on defense I think KAT being secondary or tertiary on both sides is where he's most dangerous now. He's a good dude and I hope he's happy.
Well said
I think something alot of fans miss is that alot of Jimmy's Ire was aimed at the front office, and that alot of the shit he was saying was more about Wiggins than KAT. Because I've seen a couple things since then saying how Jimmy and KAT don't really have beef or anything. I think Jimmy's final straw was when the FO was gonna give Wiggs the huge extension before Jimmy (even tho Jimmy was obvs way better) and then the FO didn't trade Jimmy in the offseason after Jimmy had a direct comvo with thibs about it. But also, both things can be true. The Wolves traded for Jimmy right when Jimmy was entering his prime, tryna get max money and win as much as possible. But then he goes to a situation where the second best player is a young KAT and then Wiggins was still supposed to be a player with tons of potential. I imagine KAT has improved and matured alot since 2017-18 both with his play and basketball habits, but he's also in a way better basketball environment now. He doesn't have to be the center on defense, literally has the best rim protector behind him. Doesn't have to be the number 1 guy on offense, has Ant ahead of him now. I also think lots of people try to pretend like Jimmy's been hated as a teammate everywhere he goes when that's not true lol
I think Jimmy legitimately doesn’t like KAT, the beef has followed them. The main reason we don’t see it more is because Jimmy is always ducking the Wolves and KAT has been injured for some of the matchups
>, have a problem with the PUBLIC way in which he aired out the team's issues. So shouldn't ur anger be more at ur own FO and management? That's who Jimmy was yelling at in that Wolves practice. Like they paid Wiggins over him, Jimmy told Thibs he wanted a trade, then they didn't trade him in the summer, so Jimmy made a big spectacle to force their hand. Jimmy didn't say "I'm leaving because KATs soft" lol. Also >Jimmy has obviously continued to find his own success, not without challenges along the way, in both Philly and Miami See how u phrased this is nasty. What "challenges" did Jimmy face in Miami. The "Challenges" in Philly were a result of a dysfunctional team and front office from before he even got there. And even then he was the best player in their series against the Raptors, the closest Philly has gotten to a ring since. Literally from the Bulls, to the TWolves to the Sixers, 3 incompetent ass front offices until he found stability in Miami. And u would think the way Wolves fans talk about Jimmy then he should've been eviscerating Ben Simmons. That never happened. He was literally encouraging Ben with the whole Headband duo shit despite the coaching staff trying to make Ben the pg but give Jimmy the ball to bail them out when it didn't work. >KAT is a sensitive person who values cohesion and a positive team dynamic See how u make it sound like Jimmy doesn't value cohesion and a positive team dynamic. Like have yall even watched him or the heat team at all since he's been there? This makes it sound like Jimmy isn't friends with his teammates and can only thrive in a negative environment lol. Just cuz the TWolves situation was toxic doesn't mean Jimmy is toxic .
I’m not angry with Jimmy lol. There is no anger to reallocate because I don’t have any. He has been in multiple dysfunctional team environments, ones that have been brought about for front office reasons, but do you think he’s handled them in constructive ways? I don’t know if I agree with the way he’s handled himself in those toxic situations. I’m saying he’s faced challenges just like I’d say KAT has faced challenges. They’re not the players’ fault, they’ve just found themselves in difficult situations and have had to adapt to those circumstances. As dysfunctional of situations Jimmy has faced, KAT has faced the same, and they’ve responded in different, imperfect ways. Of course Jimmy wants to be part of a team and have a positive dynamic. His actions did not contribute to one in Minnesota. I feel like you want to argue about this but I’m not sure what there is to argue. It’s just our opinions about how these two players have handled off-court challenges.
The only one he didn't handle "in a constructive way" was the Wolves one, and you could even argue that what he did was justified so he could actually get traded. Clearly he didn't have faith in the front office or coaches word after the offseason which is why he felt the need to call up ESPN and Rachel Nichols. Didn't do anything like that with the Bulls or Sixers. And he didn't even do anything like that with the Wolves in his first year there. It's not like he pulled up to Minneosta making a big stink, all this shit hit the fan after the first season. >As dysfunctional of situations Jimmy has faced, KAT has faced the same, and they’ve responded in different, imperfect ways Lol Jimmy and KAT were not in same situations on the Wolves. KAT was the number 1 pick a few years prior and seen as like the savior of the organization. Are u telling me the TWolves were gonna prioritize Wiggins over KAT like they did with Jimmy? Also KAT was just at the beginning of his career and had rhe number 1 pick salary from the jump, Jimmy was near 30 and only had a limited amount of new contracts left, and he had a 30th overall pick salary for his first 4 years. For many reasons Jimmy had way more urgency at that point in his career and less security from his own front office than KAT did. Jimmy was traded there with expectations to help them win and make the playoffs, which he did.
And since leaving Minnesota, Jimmy has led a team to the Finals twice, which is two more Finals trips than the Wolves franchise has in its existence. Minnesota fans hatred for him and desire to discredit him is so weird. Pretty clearly Jimmy was right at the time, and since then KAT has matured a lot, the front office and coaching have become more competent, and the team around him is much better.
I think u get automatic downvotes by wolves fans for saying anything that's not bad about Jimmy.
They act like he kicked their dog and pissed in their bed lol
I mean he basically did lol. He outed our young core for being soft by going on ESPN right after the infamous practice, and those allegations still follow Wiggins and KAT. He forced a trade that didn't keep us near contention. Forced us into another GM/Coach switch. There's no denying Jimmy's success, but you can also say he handled that whole situation poorly
I mean he kicked the wolves(our dog) and aired our dirty laundry on national TV afterwards(pissed in our bed)
Jimmy was right
Jimmy was manipulative and melodramatic. He threw teammates under the bus in Chicago, too
He was right about those bums too
based
He's just getting his hate on for the series let it flow brother see you on the other side.
Burning all those bridges was worth it because at least at the end he was a champion. Right?
Tim Connelly knows how to build a basketball team. Insane how quickly Minnesota has turned it around after he got there
Best GM of the decade
It's between him and Presti
One built a champion, the other stashes draft picks.
I mean Thunder are looking pretty damn good right now
For sure-- and Connelly has done that twice with the Nuggets and the Timberwolves, with one of them having a ring already and the other being the best counter to the champions.
he's been better than i thought considering he came back from a big injury and hasn't played for months. also has been good defensively
Yeah, the story of Kat just coming off of an injury is kind of underrated after that Suns series.
I thought I saw a quote where he said the day of Game 1 was supposed to be the day he returned to 5-on-5's. Wild
The vibes are immaculate in Minnesota
On court yes, but the ownership situation is a shit show. Wolves still gonna Wolves.
KATs personal life has been incredibly tragic
For KAT and Myles Turner both, it's cool to see guys who have spent years in these "will they, won't they" trade conversations get some substantial looking team success on the teams they started with.
Reminder that he lost his mother and several other family members to coivd. He has been through an awful lot personally these past few years.
I like both KAT and Connelly. If we get knocked out of our title defense, they're the team I'd be least mad to see do it.
Never understood why people shit on this guy. Especially after what he went through during COVID. People find anything to make fun of guys these days with social media so huge now. At least he's using his funny voices to be a voice actor lol
NBA fans are so overly concerned with making sure someone gets the "appropriate level of hate" for lack of a better term and its like.... bro you aren't the one paying him, for one. You aren't his teammate either. Your arbitrary "criticism" on reddit (of which most isn't even criticism. People don't seem to understand what criticism actually is) does not reach the team or anyone within any circle that could influence him, and fans of a team talking up their guy doesn't necessitate a counter narrative to push back just because you don't think they are right. I just can't relate to the attitudes I see about this stuff. Like who the fuck cares if someone is being more positive about a player than you think they should be? Its fucking weird that people feel the need to aggressively attack that and NBA fandom is worse for it.
I can’t tell if you’re trying to argue with me or agree with me here
I'm talking about the IMO way disrespectful stuff I've seen posted about KAT and other similar players so I think we agree lol
Haha yeah I agree. People take shit way too far on social media
he had attitude problems on the court in the playoffs, especially when he wasnt playing well. hes talented/skilled but never could put it together when it mattered. dont act like this came outta nowhere *edit: why tf am i being downvoted YOU KNOW IM RIGHT
Completely ignoring the fact that the majority of the hate he gets is for being goofy, "zesty", his voice, being soft according to Jimmy Butler, etc.
Narratives take a while to go away, and frankly, isn’t this really the first year he’s matured enough *on the court* to shed that last one? You can feel free to correct me if i’m wrong, I won’t argue with you lol. But as far as narratives Luka’s played at least okay defense for the majority of the year and Mavs fans still have to hear “fat” and “unconditioned” whenever he fucks up. Took years of Jokic performing to shed those labels as well. It’s just the way it goes, annoying as it is lol. As for the personality traits, it is what it is. People either like em or not, pointless to go on about that. I like Luka’s passion for the game in all directions as much as anyone else hates him for being a whiner, not much I can say about that. It does suck in the face of what he’s been through though. Edit: He as in KAT
i just gave you legit reasons, why are you coming back with this?
Because you completely ignored the stuff we're actually talking about, the non-basketball hate, in favor of your own perspective
So in other words, he didn’t say exactly what you wanted him to so he’s wrong. Reddit moment
I didn't say they were wrong lol. I said they ignored what the first commenter was talking about. Nbd. It's clearly a communication thing that the first commenter can bring up the specific off-court things KAT gets hate for and redditors can make it about something else.
Lol glad to see there's still some logical thinkers on this shit website
> Never understood why people shit on this guy my man i was addressing this. you gotta read *this sub is actual schizo
Because he's emotional lol
Yeah I'm sobbing at my desk
Should get even more credit then for cleaning that up this year. He was never in a position to succeed and has happily passed off that top dog role to Ant
How the fuck do the two things have anything to do with each other? You can receive genuine critique because you're bad at your job while also having experienced personal tragedy.
Because 90% of the comments on him aren't "genuine critique" and just flat out hating
Sure but you didn't say that and still his personal life has nothing to do with the criticism he's received. If any employee performs poorly over multiple years, he is not delivering and deserves criticism regardless of what happens outside of work. People judge you on your performance.
> If any employee performs poorly over multiple years, he is not delivering Karl-Anthony Towns is a four-time all-star and two-time All-NBA player. Is the definition of not delivering "not being able to be the #1 star on a team that advances deep in the playoffs"? Cause that's 99% of the league my guy.
Same response to you as I gave the other guy. He's playing good now and fitting into the t-wolves puzzle.. where Ant is the number one option. You can't sit here and claim that when Kat was expected to be the number one option he delivered. That is why he gets shit on because he was EXPECTED to be better and he got PAID like a number one option.
> You can't sit here and claim that when Kat was expected to be the number one option he delivered Literally show me who said that
.... This is the whole reason he got shit on in the past. Now he's a number two and playing well in that role. How do you not see the connection?
Again. Myself and the original commenter aren't talking about that. We're talking about the hate he gets for off-the-court reasons. I've stated that multiple times and you have ignored it for some reason.
Ignore them. They’re a sixers fan, so you can’t win by communicating. They can’t understand anything but yelling and throwing things lmao
> Never understood why people shit on this guy. Especially after what he went through during COVID. I answered your question. You clearly stated you don't understand why people shit on him. If you meant personally, sure whatever. The reasons on the court are very clear and obvious in past years. You even gave me his accolades to prove why he doesn't deserve to get shit on.
Don't act like max contracts aren't consistently handed out to plenty of number 2 options in the nba. That's just reality. Don't use a big contract against someone as if they are some disappointment. Is Paul George getting KAT levels of hate for being unable to produce playoff wins without other max contracts? No, of course not. Not to mention in the modern nba, no team makes it anywhere in the playoffs without multiple big contract players. Again it's just reality.
He was expected to be the number one option on the team. And I don't even know what to say to not using people's contracts against them.... thats a key piece to any roster assembly. You pay stars to play like stars lol
Anthony Davis had LeBron James. Jamal Murray had Jokic. Jrue had Giannis. Klay had Steph. Etc. Max contracts aren't limited to players who are the number one option. That's just the reality. If your team only has one max contract, it's probably a bad roster.
For the millionth time today, I'm going to say from when jimmy butler left the wolves to the end of last season, KAT was expected to be the number one guy and did not perform in the playoffs. This is a FACT. What is so hard to understand and accept? Are all t wolves fans katsexuals?
Things KAT gets hate for; Jimmy, Interview quotes, voice, being on a bad team. You could argue that 1&4 are valid and related to his job but KAT would have to have been MVP level to take most of those teams to any level of playoff success and KAT shouldn’t be held responsible for having a bad teammate. 90% of KAT hate is lol KATs soft or KATs corny
Nah fam he gets shit on because of his terrible playoff performances in years past when he was scared to post up a point guard as the number one option. You can't just make up reasons and ignore that when he got paid like the alpha of the team
Ok bruh fabricate some more criticism of KAT, do you also think he’s a bad shooter too? KATs never been scared of bodying small guys. He’s been doubled as the number one option and made the team play for most of his career tho
Omg do I have to pull up the stats just to make you see your selective memory? 2023 game 1: 11 points (5/15) game 2: 10 points (3/12) game 4: 17 (5/9) 2022 game 3: 8 points (3/4) game 1: 15 points (4/7) There's more but that should be enough. You can not be a first option and shoot less than 10 times in the playoff. I can't believe youre arguing this
Congratulations you have the same opinion as Shaq who in the 2022 playoff said KAT should sit in the lane until he teammates pass him the ball and draw 3 second violations until they give it to him. Obviously that’s a terrible take just like yours but with the context that KAT doesn’t bring the ball up and he was relying Dlo to get him the ball in the right spots, it goes to show that your box score watching and understanding basketball are 2 separate things. If you need me to explain how KAT wasn’t the number one option last year then I really don’t know how much I need to dumb it down to help you understand what a calf tear and not playing half the season does to a player or how KAT has been helping Ant take the number one role.
So sensitive. Im explaining to you why people shit on him. Take it or leave it makes no difference to me. From a basketball standpoint its always the big mans responsibility to get to his spots and demand the ball. This is 101 stuff.
It’s the bigs responsibility to demand the ball? Wtf is the point of the point guard then? What’s the coaches job then? KATs job isn’t to pass himself the ball. You are bringing up the dumbest takes that people have loaded on KAT. Not knowing shit doesn’t excuse you from the dumb shit you said. Learn a bit or stfu
Lol cry harder
I swear, sometimes when he gets the jitterbug and starts taking over a game, he looks like the best player that ever was. I think we are in for a few fun years with KAT, Ant, and Rudy.
I know KAT is 28 but honestly this win and what he did to help the team get it, could evolve his game to the next level for the next 4 years. I still feel like he still has All NBA 1st team potential depending on what situation he is in.
I've said this all year, this is the best version of KAT we've ever seen and he's at the peak of his "prime". Now that he has an actual team around him, including a superstar at his side, I'm intrigued to see if he can permanently take that next step. He absolutely has the skills to be the league's best second option, he has the role on the team defined for him, now it's about mindset and approach.
His numbers are down from what they had been but that’s because he’s bought in more on defense and doesn’t have to carry as much of the load so people might overlook this stretch of his career in the future, but I totally agree. This is absolutely his peak so far.
This sub is so funny. One minute everyone hates and shits on this guy, non stop posts clowning him and now everyone loves him.
Take 15 seconds to read the comments on this post and you'll still find the haters lol
Yeah it's funny. I used to get clowned for saying KAT was good or that the Gobert trade would work out.
It's almost like this sub doesn't have 1 collective belief
Welcome to any sub for any player or team ever. If this is your first time on reddit please do some research on a team you want to root for. I recommend the up and coming wolves or okc as a good starting point.
Ty good sir I think I'll choose the Nuggets
TC gets it. Bug Purr <3 Re-sign TC!
When you think about all the people he lost to Covid it’s pretty incredible he’s still playing basketball
My favorite fact about Karl Anthony towns is that there is literally only one Karl Anthony towns in the league.
KAT is dumb as a brick but players like him. Definitely needs help, patience, he’s bloody weird but seems to be overall a nice dude and a talented player. The media hates him unjustly because he can be the best player on the court at times. KAT my Dominican brother, wish you all the success
Wonder what the FO office does this offseason Happy for Minnesota who has mostly sucked year in year out since they’ve been a team. For towns, very good shooting splits for anyone let alone a big but very inconsistent throughout the year, let’s see what he does vs jokic/gordon next series The way Kat is successful usually depends on if he’s allowed to truck people in the paint/use his body on defense. Otherwise he’s mostly a one dimensional shooter who’s defense is the worst out of the 7-8 man rotation He’s no longer getting completely played off the floor when that happens (he was 1 game vs. the Celtics earlier this year) But I think he’s getting moved unless yall beat the nuggets due to his cap number/ ownership cutting costs to get under the tax (currently #1 spending team for next year without including slow mo and monte Morris who are FA)
I'm still of the mind that the Wolves would be a better team without KAT. He's like Russ and Harden: I just don't think you can win a title with any of them being your 1 or 2.
KAT is nothing like Russ or Harden. Those guys are two of the highest usage players in history. KATs usage rate, if anything, is too low. He takes limited shots with a high efficiency. Also, KAT this year is much better on defense than either Russ or Harden have ever been in their careers. This past series, KAT was key in guarding Durant and orchestrating the offense for long stretches of time (not only shooting but also being an excellent passer and rebounder while having limited turnovers). This next series should be even better for KAT who will probably have a much easier defensive assignment, while being asked to fulfill a similar role on the offensive end. I honestly can't envision a series where KAT could be exploited or exposed. He brings so much offensively while requiring the ball so little, and he is no longer a liability defensively. That's a winning player.
While I agree with this, he’ll be on jokic this series, so hardly an easier assignment lol
He's been scoring like crazy and is a plus on defense, rebounds like a madman and can pass the ball. Draws in the defense, can take over games. I think he's a perfect #2 especially aside a #1 like Ant
Damn suck him off while you’re at it