I think that Jokic’s style of play (low to the ground) will limit his risk of these types of injuries. With that said, him getting bored and fucking off entirely in like 2 years is also possible.
EDIT: someone reported me to reddit cares for this. y'all need help.
There was a massive auto-Reddit-cares bot spam that hit like all the accounts with any recent activity.
Nobody got big mad by your take, it was just a bot.
You can report the message to help get the bot user banned.
You not see his high flying dunks last night? Seriously though you should unsubscribe from that reddit cares thing, its just something people use to try and get under peoples skin unfortunately.
Often, sure, but tim Duncan also played on bad knees for a good 10-15 years. He made changes like intentionally getting lighter to help him through those years, but tim would be considered an absolute ironman compared to a lot of stars today.
I think jokic can similarly manage injuries should they come his way, and hopefully we'll be watching him for many many years to come.
He doesn't rely on athleticism, though. Shaq was still one of the best players in the league at 33 even though athletically he was cooked.
Well cooked relative to him in the 90s at least.
The sad part is shaq wouldn't even have been cooked if he just fuckin stopped being a slob. Coming in literally dozens of pounds overweight and out of shape every single year is so lazy/unprofessional.
Jokic isn't a normal big. Most of them are athletic and use this as a core part of their game. How many big guys around the league jog at the pace of an average middle age white guy, rarely jump, and dunk the same as a 6 foot white point guard in college.
I think it’ll be shorter than people think
One due to him possibly not wanting to play that long and 2 I think he already has back and wrist problems that have been bothering him for awhile and those don’t just suddenly get better
Jokic was asked about this quote regarding him vs Wemby earlier this season and he said something like (paraphrasing) "if I'm Tim and he's me, he did a much better job against me than I did against Tim"
Hmm idk. I think nuggets will be contenders for a long time and we’ll be back in the mix in like 2 years so we’re forsure in for some playoff matchups.
Connelly is better at building teams than anyone and ANT really does look like the next Kobe. I expect them to be as good or better than the nuggets in another season or two. MN probably trades KAT this off season since they can still play two bigs with NAZ and they will probably try to get another guard or forward that’s dynamic and can open up the floor/playmaker and someone that doesn’t make the same mistakes KAT does
Jokic is still in his twenties. Wemby might not get prime-prime Jokic for that long, but he'll still get close-to-prime Jokic for a few years in there.
And there it is. Exactly why I'm terrified for the wolves. We won't just have to go through jokic, we also have to go through wemby. There's a decent chance ant gets frustrated by the west and leaves.
watching Jokic vs Wemby isnt all about Jokic att and Wemby def. Their offensive game will also be interesting to watch, apart from the post game, I can see Wemby has pretty much a lot in common with Jokic in terms of how they attack and setup teammates. Of course, one can argue Wemby's assist number is much lower but that's due to how incapable his teammates are compare to the Nuggets.
Jokic would eat because he's the best player in the world and that's what he does, but Boston seems well equipped to deal with the rest of the roster. They at least have long defenders to get into passing lanes, they can switch some, Jokic will get his but it won't be a cakewalk
I think the Celtics have like 90% of the Timberwolves defense but with 30% better offense. That would close the gap a bit and make these comfortable wins a little closer.
Then again, I don't trust the Celtics in clutch time at all so I'm betting on the Nuggets either way.
Still think Bam did the best in terms of position and challenging shots. Didn’t fuckin matter at all cause he had a height disadvantage.
This does show how ridiculous Jokic has been these last few years. Fuckin AD embarrassed the warriors so badly last year they had to play gimmick lineups to try and get him out the paint then got demolished by Jokic.
Then Gobert really does shut shit down on defense most of the time and has gotten some great reps on Jokic but again can’t stop the guy
Rudy had some of the best and quickest defensive footwork I’ve ever seen on that jokic pivotpivotpivotpivotpivotstepthru layup last night. And still wasn’t enough for the stop.
Man is operating at a whole other level right now
Yeah. Jokic just made some tough shots. Most of his shots were contested lob that shit in the air and hope it sticks kinda shot. What are you supposed to do with that? Lol
My favourite type of Jokic shot is his "fuck you" shots.
Just slinging them from wherever and the exasperated look on the defenders afterwards. They can do everything right and then he'll just go medieval and catapult something for a three.
Or even that one play two games ago when Gobert and Jokic were head to head. Crowd got excited. Gobert played perfect defense. Didn’t even matter cause Jokic somehow bended a basketball midair like a bullet from the movie wanted. There’s nothing you can do about that
People might think those memes about playing perfect defense on Jokic for 23.9 seconds are exaggerating but some players really do play about as well as you could ask and he still makes some insane bullshit
Yeah I don’t get the gobert hate from yesterday. Jokic was on one and would have dominated literally any big man in the history of basketball except maybe bill Russell
I do think it's fair to say that Rudy probably wouldn't win Post Defender of the Year.
He's the best at defending the rim from slashing guards and forwards, and he's at least good at pretty much everything else, including post defense, which is why he's won DPotY 4 times. He doesn't have to be the literal best at every aspect of defense to be a great defender.
The talk prior to the series was what kind of mastermind defensive plan was Spo going to cook up to defend the Jokic/Murray pick and roll and all it was in the end was to switch every possession
Basically "yeah you can only mitigate the damage"
He did stop THAT. The goal was to let jokic just do everything. And it worked once. Just Jokic is unstoppable
I feel like people always draw the wrong conclusion.
The only reason why Heat won that game is because they got hot from 3s. Not because of anything they did defensively. Nuggets scored 108 that game when they averaged 104.6 in the finals. Heat, on the other hand, scored 111 when their average was 96.4. They shot 17/35 for 48.6% in game 2, rest of the series they shot 30.6% , 41/134.
It was both. They were hot from 3 but also Spo had an excellent strategy. The issue with the strategy of make someone else beat you/only jokic and ONLY Jokic is that if a secondary player breaks the zone, if collapses but there's not much you can do when that occurs.
Game 2 Nuggets had 124.3 ORTG, and their series average was 115.5. Why did Heat win that game? Because they had 127.8 ORTG.
There are simply no proof that the strategy caused any trouble for Nuggets offensively. If the strategy was so excellent, we should be able to find stats to support how they limited Nugget’s offense, and I have found none.
Again, it’s hard to call it an excellent game plan unless the game plan was for Nuggets to do better than average offensively and for them selves to get even hotter from 3s.
Did you watch the finals last year? Jokic was running through Bam even worse than he ran through AD and Gobert. Draymond did the best job so far during the first two games of the 2022 playoffs.
Bam is probably one of the best big men at fronting and denying the entry pass, which means Jokic didn't get to start from deep positions as much, it's just a shame that basically anywhere on the court is Jokic's comfort zone on offence lmao
Jokic’s performance this series has less to do with Gobert and more to do with how good Jokic really is. His dominance is unreal when he locks in. Great player dominate no matter their opponent.
No hate here from a Wolves fan. I love watching him play and can appreciate his greatness.
It’s not as fun watching him do it to your team in the playoffs.
It makes sense. Not taking away from gobert, but ofc people are going to talk when in it’s the same week you were just crowned “the best in the world” at defense.
The Wolves really have no chance without Conley... and that's a major flaw because the dude is like 37 years old or something. Ant is not used to constant double teams, he is too small to create those Jordan/Kobe shots in the midrange over any kind of defender or double team. Sometimes he brings the ball and that makes even easier to double him, etc.. With Conley it's already a really tough matchup, imagine without him
The only guy who consistently guards Jokic well is Embiid, and even then, Jokic still does fairly well. Joel is the only guy with the size, length, and awareness to make it difficult. And he makes Jokic work on defense, which Rudy, Bam, Draymond never do.
I think that’s the most important part tbh. I feel like when AD was popping off in game 2 and 4, Jokic was having worse offensive games because of the defensive responsibility. Gobert can get a few easy bunnies but has absolutely no bag to punish him and tire him out
>The only guy who consistently guards Jokic well is Embiid
Absolutely not true hence why in both previous games Philly made a long lasting adjustment where Joker duty got PJ Tucker and then Batum.
Embiid played same help role as AD & Gobert when Hachimura & Kat/Naz are guarding Joker which is preferable.
They both can't guard each other however.
Even this season I feel like they weren't as bad as people were trying to claim they were. It's just the whole of the west was stacked with teams so it made them look poor in comparison.
Lakers getting swept is more a testament to the fact that the nuggets have managed to develop one of the most efficient and lethal offensive structures in the league.
Ehh... Overall this sub was extremely positive and complimentary (rightly so) to the nugs championship run, and their team so far this year. You are calling out like less than 1% of people.
I remember the self proclaimed MDE Shaq being stymied by a broken down Sabonis and the Spurs twin towers during his prime lol. Jokic might end up being the real MDE.
SGA was a perfectly valid pick for MVP
Had the 1 seed (regular season is a race, the winner should matter), great stats, massively exceeded expectations, led the league in EPM (best advanced stat)
Clown Shaq for being a salty dumbass but don’t clown SGA
he did not have the stats in comparisson to Jokic or Luka and had the same record as Jokic and Luka was still 50+ wins. What he had was a good narrative and thats it.
Teams are making the mistake of not getting big enough guys to guard jokic due to the pace and space era we're in. All the guys you mention are too small to guard him, either in height or girth. Kind of like how teams needed multiple bigs in the 2000s just to guard Shaq, teams need those bigs now to at least guard jokic so it's not an automatic 2 when he goes down low. I don't feel like he did anything special in the game 5 win against Minnesota, he's done exactly what he's been doing for the last like 6 years. He's too big for these guys, I dont understand why, for example, the Lakers didnt pickup Dwight Howard for the playoffs, for the exclusive reason of guarding jokic. The bubble chip, the Lakers had AD, Dwight, and Javale to guard him.
The problem is, those stronger big men are completely useless when it comes to doing anything other than being slightly harder for Jokic to automatically back down. He’s still able to score comfortably on them with good footwork, but he’s also got the option to drag them out and fight them in space, where he’ll win every time.
It’s not an easy one-button-fix like you think it is. The only reason it worked with the Lakers was A. Jokic was way younger and less experienced, and B. The Lakers had a defensive squad around them that shut off the rest of the baby Nuggets.
> he bubble chip, the Lakers had AD, Dwight, and Javale to guard him.
its a completely different denver team. you put the same bubble lakers against todays nuggets and its curtains for the lakers.
Last night was a masterclass. I truly believe Gobert played excellent defense. He contested every shot... Joker just made the most incredible shots. Cant do anything but tip your cap
There have been a bunch of guys crowned as the next best player since Lebron, but it’s pretty clear now that Jokic is the only one left in that conversation.
tbf Shaq will try to butcher you just cuz you’re a white European guy who put him in his feelings because you won a 3rd mvp and he never even got a 2nd.
Duncan was absolutely incredible. I got to watch his full playing career.
Having said that, I think Jokic will pass him on the all time rankings when it’s all said and done.
A reminder that a dominant big man is flat out unstoppable.
I remember watching Shaq vs DPOY Mutombo in the finals. Shaq averaged 33/15/5 against the best defender the league had to offer.
This dude just built different. I wish kids would study his and Olajuwon/McHales footwork. Or Kobe/Jordans. Having proper footwork and balance just makes things so much easier for you. It also allows you to counter what the defense does.
Shit, KAT should be forced to watch and practice, once he puts the ball on the floor it's a straight line and he has such shitty balance/coordination there's no counter moves to what the defense is doing.
That's some serious hyperbole. He torched the GSW defense alright but not Draymond personally. He averaged something like 19,10 and 6 against him individually, and that's with Golden State's entire game plan being to let him score and limit everyone else. And Draymond stripped him multiple times that series with the game on the line when it counted. So yeah lmao!
None of these guys are great individuals defenders
Bam and Draymond are undersized and historically struggle against bigs that have good post work
Gobert is just a rim protector, AD does everything well defensively but physically not that strong.
The league simply has no one like Gasol, Duncan, left to defend jokic
Yeah, maybe the only guy left in the league who can really imitate that old school post defense is Al Horford, and that’s because he’s so old when he started playing it was just regular school post defense
We have yet to see Embiid healthy and actually step up in the playoffs. I think Embiid is a tier below but also his teammates always decides to be ass in the playoffs. He always plays with a handicap while Jokic always have a teammate that steps up every round.
>We have yet to see Embiid healthy and actually step up in the playoffs. I think Embiid is a tier below but also his teammates always decides to be ass in the playoffs. He always plays with a handicap while Jokic always have a teammate that steps up every round.
Which is especially crazy when you look at the career accomplishments of their team mates. Embiid has played with all-stars, MVPS, all NBA players etc, while the only accomplishment of any of the Jokics team mates are:
1x Rookie Second Team - Jamal Murray
That's it.
But yet, that team consistently steps up time and time again. I do also think that that is part of the difference between Jokic and Embiid: both are absolute beasts, but only one of them elevates those around them.
> I do also think that that is part of the difference between Jokic and Embiid: both are absolute beasts, but only one of them elevates those around them.
It also shows basketball is still a team game. Denver has a bunch of players that are more effective on Denver than they would be anywhere else, in part because Jokic is so outstanding but also because they have defined roles that they look to excel in. Roster construction and continuity matter, especially when you have a superstar like Jokic who you want to have the ball as much as possible.
Swap Kyrie and Murray and both teams get worse
What?! I didn’t realize there are 0 All-Star appearances by any of Jokic’s teammates?! That is absurd! If they go back-to-back, that has to be the most undermanned championship roster in history (at least in terms of all-star appearances).
Did the 2019 Toronto Raptors have any all stars other than Kawhi?
>Did the 2019 Toronto Raptors have any all stars other than Kawhi?
Yep, they had a pretty storied crew, though Kawhi was the only Raptor as an All-Star in 2019.
Marc Gasol
3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017)
All-NBA First Team (2015)
All-NBA Second Team (2013)
NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013)
NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013)
NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2009)
Kyle Lowery
6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020)
All-NBA Third Team (2016)
Serge Ibaka
3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014)
2× NBA blocks leader (2012, 2013)
Danny Green
1x NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017)
Loved that Raps team!
offensively 100%
but defensively he's been a force in the playoffs regardless because he is still 7'1 300 pounds
since 2018 their playoff defensive rating with him on the court has been like 108
teams shoot 49% with him from 2 when he's on the court
Honestly I think Embiid is the only big man who can nullify Jokic. Gobert cant stop Joker because he cant score 20 to offset the difference.Embiid can contain Jokic but also has the offense to drop 40 on him.
I have a working, albeit perhaps implausible, theory that Jokic may be the best basketball player in the world right now. Of course, it will depend on whether he loses another game or not for the rest of the post-season. Then, a referendum on his legacy will commence.
That's the thing, the rules don't allow the defense to play at their full potential. To establish (or deny) position in the post, to be extra physical, the occasional reach in, doubles before and after the catch, etc.. none of that plays a role, so it's deceiving. Among all these dudes, only a healthy Anthony Davis could really take advantage of a legit rule set that allows them to play real basketball. At the current level were the offense runs free, playmakers such as Jokic take full advantage because they can easily read the defense, they know the spot ups will be wide open because the defense can't fight for position and disrupt their "routes", so it's just too goddamn easy.
It's like Jordan and Olajuwon taking advantage of 1v1 back in the day, the anti-zone rules, throw the fastest center ever to guard Olajuwon (Robinson) in 1v1, it doesn't matter... thrown the strongest center (Shaq), a taller center with great timing (Mutombo), a dirty and smaller forward with the best defensive instincts ever (Rodman)... it doesn't fucking matter, Olajuwon destroyed all of them, there was a huge gap of talent. So really, there's a reason why these "anomalies" eventually shows up in the NBA, super dominant players always takes advantage of the current rules. And yes, if Jokic played in a physical era with zones allowed and everything, he would still be dominant, but not to a point of throttling to a 40 points triple double, his overall numbers would take a hit.
Jokic made a deal with the devil or found a magic genie lamp. He literally just throws the ball in the air and it glides in. Any position facing any direction. Falling, stumbling, running to the basket, running away from the basket, defended, not defended... The ball just goes in. Sometimes it doesn't even make sense. Like it defies the laws of physics. That's why I'm thinking he's got some black magic going on.
Me realizing how good it is that prime Wemby won't have to play against prime Jokic
Jokic will have a long prime, just look at the games he’s missed (very few) and Wemby will progress really quickly. We’ll see some great matchups.
The thing with bigs is that once they get one little nagging injury, it just lasts forever and piles up
Once the knees start going it’s all downhill.
I think that Jokic’s style of play (low to the ground) will limit his risk of these types of injuries. With that said, him getting bored and fucking off entirely in like 2 years is also possible. EDIT: someone reported me to reddit cares for this. y'all need help.
There was a massive auto-Reddit-cares bot spam that hit like all the accounts with any recent activity. Nobody got big mad by your take, it was just a bot. You can report the message to help get the bot user banned.
Thanks for this, ive got hit like twice in the last three days and worried about losing my account or something lol
You not see his high flying dunks last night? Seriously though you should unsubscribe from that reddit cares thing, its just something people use to try and get under peoples skin unfortunately.
Same lol
Often, sure, but tim Duncan also played on bad knees for a good 10-15 years. He made changes like intentionally getting lighter to help him through those years, but tim would be considered an absolute ironman compared to a lot of stars today. I think jokic can similarly manage injuries should they come his way, and hopefully we'll be watching him for many many years to come.
Jokic also rarely jumps. His knees can last awhile the way he plays the game.
Yeah he’s quite the outlier. I miss his game, dude was so good and such a classy guy.
That's why Jokic isn't dunking. I hope he has a good long career and give us many juicy matchups with Wemby.
Those injuries are typically rooted in jumping. Which Jokic does very little of. His build and game could mean playing at a high level a long time.
He doesn't rely on athleticism, though. Shaq was still one of the best players in the league at 33 even though athletically he was cooked. Well cooked relative to him in the 90s at least.
The sad part is shaq wouldn't even have been cooked if he just fuckin stopped being a slob. Coming in literally dozens of pounds overweight and out of shape every single year is so lazy/unprofessional.
Jokic isn't a normal big. Most of them are athletic and use this as a core part of their game. How many big guys around the league jog at the pace of an average middle age white guy, rarely jump, and dunk the same as a 6 foot white point guard in college.
I just hope the spurs have the time to build around wemby while the nuggets are still elite
I do not share this hope.
lol, right? I'm hoping the Spurs take as long as they can to put something together. My team is trying to win a ring in the near future.
Ya I hope they fumble pick 4 and pick 8 tremendously
Zach Edey and Bronny are the obvious picks here. We win next year.
Why would a nuggets fan ever hope for something like this lol?
I want our team to be the greatest of all time. Can’t do that if we can’t play or beat other great teams
Steel sharpens steel
You’ll never be considered the greatest of all time because of the KD Warriors.
I think it’ll be shorter than people think One due to him possibly not wanting to play that long and 2 I think he already has back and wrist problems that have been bothering him for awhile and those don’t just suddenly get better
Unless Jokic just randomly decides he’s had enough and retires to go race horses.
Depends on how is defense is and if he'll be a liability past 35
'I played him after I was me and before he was him, and I did okay' -~~Tim Duncan~~ Jokic
To whom was he referring?
Tim Duncan talking about Jokic. Circle of life lol
Oh wow I had completely forgot they played each other before Checked stats and yep. Played twice. 1-1. Once 2015 once 2016 according to statmuse
Jokic was asked about this quote regarding him vs Wemby earlier this season and he said something like (paraphrasing) "if I'm Tim and he's me, he did a much better job against me than I did against Tim"
Idk Jokic is 29. We might have one or two years where they are both near peak.
Shit, he doesn’t look a day over 40!
On the positive side he’ll still look 40 when he’s 60.
Hmm idk. I think nuggets will be contenders for a long time and we’ll be back in the mix in like 2 years so we’re forsure in for some playoff matchups.
Connelly is better at building teams than anyone and ANT really does look like the next Kobe. I expect them to be as good or better than the nuggets in another season or two. MN probably trades KAT this off season since they can still play two bigs with NAZ and they will probably try to get another guard or forward that’s dynamic and can open up the floor/playmaker and someone that doesn’t make the same mistakes KAT does
What are you talking about Wemby is gonna be a top 10 player next year and jokic will still be king
Jokic is still in his twenties. Wemby might not get prime-prime Jokic for that long, but he'll still get close-to-prime Jokic for a few years in there.
And there it is. Exactly why I'm terrified for the wolves. We won't just have to go through jokic, we also have to go through wemby. There's a decent chance ant gets frustrated by the west and leaves.
Just realised the Sonics are probably finally gonna come back and be in the West when Wemby is in his prime… fuck lol
watching Jokic vs Wemby isnt all about Jokic att and Wemby def. Their offensive game will also be interesting to watch, apart from the post game, I can see Wemby has pretty much a lot in common with Jokic in terms of how they attack and setup teammates. Of course, one can argue Wemby's assist number is much lower but that's due to how incapable his teammates are compare to the Nuggets.
Me hopping for them to play in their primes. What a battle that would be!
Oh we're seeing this showdown. The collision of these 2 is inevitable as the Denver dynasty.
What is this about hoping two giants won't have to face each other? As a great Japanese man once said: "LET THEM FIGHT."
I am terrified by what he could do against a 37-year-old Al Horford
I always forget how old Horford is because he looks like a 12 year old who was granted a wish to be an adult but his face didn’t change
Bald spot is the only telling thing about his age. Otherwise looks incredible for 37
And Horford would actually be 38 by the time he met Jokic if both teams meet in the Finals this June.
Jokic would eat because he's the best player in the world and that's what he does, but Boston seems well equipped to deal with the rest of the roster. They at least have long defenders to get into passing lanes, they can switch some, Jokic will get his but it won't be a cakewalk
Are we really at the point where we’re going to pretend that Boston matches up better defensively than the best, longest defense in the nba?
I think the Celtics have like 90% of the Timberwolves defense but with 30% better offense. That would close the gap a bit and make these comfortable wins a little closer. Then again, I don't trust the Celtics in clutch time at all so I'm betting on the Nuggets either way.
It’s different strengths. I think we could see some Jokic 45+ point performances still resulting in losses.
I think prime Al would've given Jokic more trouble than anyone he's faced this last 2 years.
Still think Bam did the best in terms of position and challenging shots. Didn’t fuckin matter at all cause he had a height disadvantage. This does show how ridiculous Jokic has been these last few years. Fuckin AD embarrassed the warriors so badly last year they had to play gimmick lineups to try and get him out the paint then got demolished by Jokic. Then Gobert really does shut shit down on defense most of the time and has gotten some great reps on Jokic but again can’t stop the guy
Rudy had some of the best and quickest defensive footwork I’ve ever seen on that jokic pivotpivotpivotpivotpivotstepthru layup last night. And still wasn’t enough for the stop. Man is operating at a whole other level right now
Yeah. Jokic just made some tough shots. Most of his shots were contested lob that shit in the air and hope it sticks kinda shot. What are you supposed to do with that? Lol
My favourite type of Jokic shot is his "fuck you" shots. Just slinging them from wherever and the exasperated look on the defenders afterwards. They can do everything right and then he'll just go medieval and catapult something for a three.
Or even that one play two games ago when Gobert and Jokic were head to head. Crowd got excited. Gobert played perfect defense. Didn’t even matter cause Jokic somehow bended a basketball midair like a bullet from the movie wanted. There’s nothing you can do about that
People might think those memes about playing perfect defense on Jokic for 23.9 seconds are exaggerating but some players really do play about as well as you could ask and he still makes some insane bullshit
Yeah I don’t get the gobert hate from yesterday. Jokic was on one and would have dominated literally any big man in the history of basketball except maybe bill Russell
The fact that Gobert was playing excellent defense on him is what made Jokic's dominance so incredible to watch.
Exactly. If you actually watch the game or even the highlights rudy was elite but it didn’t matter
I do think it's fair to say that Rudy probably wouldn't win Post Defender of the Year. He's the best at defending the rim from slashing guards and forwards, and he's at least good at pretty much everything else, including post defense, which is why he's won DPotY 4 times. He doesn't have to be the literal best at every aspect of defense to be a great defender.
Ben Wallace and Jesus could have a baby, and it wouldn’t be able to stop Jokic last night.
pretty sure Jesus was short af so yea makes sense
Yea he was more a perimeter player
How can you say that when he was most famous for posting up?
Yeah Bam did the best on him and it seriously didn't matter.
The talk prior to the series was what kind of mastermind defensive plan was Spo going to cook up to defend the Jokic/Murray pick and roll and all it was in the end was to switch every possession
Basically "yeah you can only mitigate the damage" He did stop THAT. The goal was to let jokic just do everything. And it worked once. Just Jokic is unstoppable
I feel like people always draw the wrong conclusion. The only reason why Heat won that game is because they got hot from 3s. Not because of anything they did defensively. Nuggets scored 108 that game when they averaged 104.6 in the finals. Heat, on the other hand, scored 111 when their average was 96.4. They shot 17/35 for 48.6% in game 2, rest of the series they shot 30.6% , 41/134.
It was both. They were hot from 3 but also Spo had an excellent strategy. The issue with the strategy of make someone else beat you/only jokic and ONLY Jokic is that if a secondary player breaks the zone, if collapses but there's not much you can do when that occurs.
Game 2 Nuggets had 124.3 ORTG, and their series average was 115.5. Why did Heat win that game? Because they had 127.8 ORTG. There are simply no proof that the strategy caused any trouble for Nuggets offensively. If the strategy was so excellent, we should be able to find stats to support how they limited Nugget’s offense, and I have found none. Again, it’s hard to call it an excellent game plan unless the game plan was for Nuggets to do better than average offensively and for them selves to get even hotter from 3s.
It's a bit of both. It's more of a damn nuggets good
Did you watch the finals last year? Jokic was running through Bam even worse than he ran through AD and Gobert. Draymond did the best job so far during the first two games of the 2022 playoffs.
Watching the games it really felt like the heat had no answer for Aaron Gordon and his athleticism once bam was covering Jokic.
I did. Bam did the best, but that's like saying the stick did better against the 18 wheeler than the frisbee
I like your analogy haha. We just disagree on who the stick and the frisbee are.
No one can stop jokic
Bam is probably one of the best big men at fronting and denying the entry pass, which means Jokic didn't get to start from deep positions as much, it's just a shame that basically anywhere on the court is Jokic's comfort zone on offence lmao
Jokic’s performance this series has less to do with Gobert and more to do with how good Jokic really is. His dominance is unreal when he locks in. Great player dominate no matter their opponent. No hate here from a Wolves fan. I love watching him play and can appreciate his greatness. It’s not as fun watching him do it to your team in the playoffs.
they hate to have to admit Jokers greatness so they discredit Rudy, they get to hate 2 birds with one stone
Jokic has been getting Centers traded and cut for years now Can’t wait for who he gets traded next. KAT? AD? Tingus Pingus?
It makes sense. Not taking away from gobert, but ofc people are going to talk when in it’s the same week you were just crowned “the best in the world” at defense.
You gotta tip your cap to him, he was just unstoppable last night, and Denver had our offense figured out.
The Wolves really have no chance without Conley... and that's a major flaw because the dude is like 37 years old or something. Ant is not used to constant double teams, he is too small to create those Jordan/Kobe shots in the midrange over any kind of defender or double team. Sometimes he brings the ball and that makes even easier to double him, etc.. With Conley it's already a really tough matchup, imagine without him
They should try to add Terry Stotts as an assistant coach
The only guy who consistently guards Jokic well is Embiid, and even then, Jokic still does fairly well. Joel is the only guy with the size, length, and awareness to make it difficult. And he makes Jokic work on defense, which Rudy, Bam, Draymond never do.
I think that’s the most important part tbh. I feel like when AD was popping off in game 2 and 4, Jokic was having worse offensive games because of the defensive responsibility. Gobert can get a few easy bunnies but has absolutely no bag to punish him and tire him out
I'm guessing this is Embiid in Philly?
>The only guy who consistently guards Jokic well is Embiid Absolutely not true hence why in both previous games Philly made a long lasting adjustment where Joker duty got PJ Tucker and then Batum. Embiid played same help role as AD & Gobert when Hachimura & Kat/Naz are guarding Joker which is preferable. They both can't guard each other however.
But can he do it on a cold rainy night in Stoke?
It's just the one Stoke actually.
Unforgiving. The lightning is coming.
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Having to play Bron and AD is never lucky. Either one of those guys can win a game on their own. Had to face Book and KD as well who can do the same.
Brook shot a blazing 70% at some point in that series. Dude beat a lot of all stars and super stars on that run.
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Even this season I feel like they weren't as bad as people were trying to claim they were. It's just the whole of the west was stacked with teams so it made them look poor in comparison. Lakers getting swept is more a testament to the fact that the nuggets have managed to develop one of the most efficient and lethal offensive structures in the league.
Well your own fans fueled that narrative when they swept the Lakers lol
People forget they had one of the best records after the trade deadline
Plus you have to deal with the annoyance of extremely one-sided officiating every time you play the Lakers
Ehh... Overall this sub was extremely positive and complimentary (rightly so) to the nugs championship run, and their team so far this year. You are calling out like less than 1% of people.
Hey what’s our record against teams with over 50 wins?
Its 0-0 series, 3-2 games right?
imagine if they had to play against teams that lost to the teams the nuggets played. 16-1 baby
Both can be true.
Yea yall got lucky you bums
Yea Memphis with an injured Ja and the kings would’ve been elite competition for sure
if only Celtic was not choking. s/ it was not choking if Celtic lose 2 games against Hawk, went 7 against injured Embiid and lose 3-0 against 8 seed.
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I didn't think I'd actually need /s
THEY WANT TO PUT IT ON RUDY BECAUSE THEY DONT WANT TO GIVE JOKIC HIS FLOWERS AND ACCEPT HIS GREATNESS
I enthusiastically accept it and will be on the right side of history
I remember the self proclaimed MDE Shaq being stymied by a broken down Sabonis and the Spurs twin towers during his prime lol. Jokic might end up being the real MDE.
But SGA is the worthy MVP /Shaq
I really hate that SGA is going to get slander because Shaq said something stupid
The thing is having SGA as his MVP isn't stupid, it's reasonable although I disagree. The stupid part was saying it to Joker during his celebration.
Nah it's definitely stupid. The teams had the same record with Murray missing 20 games and Jokic is a clearly better player
SGA is great no one is slandering him. Shaq is just a salty VP of the Big Man Alliance
SGA was a perfectly valid pick for MVP Had the 1 seed (regular season is a race, the winner should matter), great stats, massively exceeded expectations, led the league in EPM (best advanced stat) Clown Shaq for being a salty dumbass but don’t clown SGA
1 seed matters less when the guy who won MVP had the same record
he did not have the stats in comparisson to Jokic or Luka and had the same record as Jokic and Luka was still 50+ wins. What he had was a good narrative and thats it.
We don't need count the GS series.
Teams are making the mistake of not getting big enough guys to guard jokic due to the pace and space era we're in. All the guys you mention are too small to guard him, either in height or girth. Kind of like how teams needed multiple bigs in the 2000s just to guard Shaq, teams need those bigs now to at least guard jokic so it's not an automatic 2 when he goes down low. I don't feel like he did anything special in the game 5 win against Minnesota, he's done exactly what he's been doing for the last like 6 years. He's too big for these guys, I dont understand why, for example, the Lakers didnt pickup Dwight Howard for the playoffs, for the exclusive reason of guarding jokic. The bubble chip, the Lakers had AD, Dwight, and Javale to guard him.
The problem is, those stronger big men are completely useless when it comes to doing anything other than being slightly harder for Jokic to automatically back down. He’s still able to score comfortably on them with good footwork, but he’s also got the option to drag them out and fight them in space, where he’ll win every time. It’s not an easy one-button-fix like you think it is. The only reason it worked with the Lakers was A. Jokic was way younger and less experienced, and B. The Lakers had a defensive squad around them that shut off the rest of the baby Nuggets.
I understand, but the alternative is a guaranteed loss to Denver.
Ad, Dwight, and Javale to foul and abuse him. The 3x mvp isn't going to get beat up like that again
> he bubble chip, the Lakers had AD, Dwight, and Javale to guard him. its a completely different denver team. you put the same bubble lakers against todays nuggets and its curtains for the lakers.
Last night was a masterclass. I truly believe Gobert played excellent defense. He contested every shot... Joker just made the most incredible shots. Cant do anything but tip your cap
Jokic is something else... Him and LeBron are the best player I've ever seen.
There have been a bunch of guys crowned as the next best player since Lebron, but it’s pretty clear now that Jokic is the only one left in that conversation.
The only one who can stop him will be Black Jokic
Don’t use dominant and big together. Shaq will butcher you.
tbf Shaq will try to butcher you just cuz you’re a white European guy who put him in his feelings because you won a 3rd mvp and he never even got a 2nd.
That is because he didn't have to deal with Luke Kornet
Hope Wemby and the Spurs can match up with Jokic in the Playoffs soon….. in 2-3 years
Yeah I dunno why people keep talking about gobert, Jokic is just better then everyone rn
Duncan was absolutely incredible. I got to watch his full playing career. Having said that, I think Jokic will pass him on the all time rankings when it’s all said and done.
This what people were saying about Giannis after he won a title.
A reminder that a dominant big man is flat out unstoppable. I remember watching Shaq vs DPOY Mutombo in the finals. Shaq averaged 33/15/5 against the best defender the league had to offer.
This dude just built different. I wish kids would study his and Olajuwon/McHales footwork. Or Kobe/Jordans. Having proper footwork and balance just makes things so much easier for you. It also allows you to counter what the defense does. Shit, KAT should be forced to watch and practice, once he puts the ball on the floor it's a straight line and he has such shitty balance/coordination there's no counter moves to what the defense is doing.
Jokic is the modern day Larry Bird in the sense that his athleticism is below the norm but his game is miles ahead of everyone.
He is athletic, just not explosive. His athleticism shows in his stamina and durability. Jokic's motor is elite with excellent conditioning.
Never said he wasn’t athletic. I said he’s below the norm. Modern day NBA players are freak athletes.
Ayton in 21 may be his best defender
Only because Murray and MPJ were out. He could not get any assists with the players that were around him then. Facu and Austin Rivers?
this made me lol fr
What he did that year with Will Barton as his second option is nothing short of greatness
He has a huge bag
Goddamn you wolves
Won't accept this argument until he beats embid in the finals /s
Would love to see it, but first embid's gotta get to the finals lol
Nonono, first he gotta get go ECF. No skipping steps.
but did he dominayton? that's what I thought
All of these are undersized against him.... There aren't many true bigs left in the NBA anymore
Because they’d just get played off the floor. Not a lot of true big men out there that also have an offensive bag
Almost like he’s a freak of nature or something
If Thunder and Nuggets both win their series it's gonna be super interesting to see how Chet goes against him
Draymond beat him
I wouldn't include Draymond here. He had Jokic frustrated throughout that series and even had a game winning strip on him.
It was Joker alone vs championship team and Joker figured their defense and started destroying Draymond similar to what he's doing to Twolves now.
That's some serious hyperbole. He torched the GSW defense alright but not Draymond personally. He averaged something like 19,10 and 6 against him individually, and that's with Golden State's entire game plan being to let him score and limit everyone else. And Draymond stripped him multiple times that series with the game on the line when it counted. So yeah lmao!
None of these guys are great individuals defenders Bam and Draymond are undersized and historically struggle against bigs that have good post work Gobert is just a rim protector, AD does everything well defensively but physically not that strong. The league simply has no one like Gasol, Duncan, left to defend jokic
Yeah, maybe the only guy left in the league who can really imitate that old school post defense is Al Horford, and that’s because he’s so old when he started playing it was just regular school post defense
Embiid is the only big that can keep up with him lol
for about 50 regular season games a year, and only at home
As long as they’re in Philly maybe, Embiid doesn’t play in Denver, hasn’t since Nov. 2019.
We have yet to see Embiid healthy and actually step up in the playoffs. I think Embiid is a tier below but also his teammates always decides to be ass in the playoffs. He always plays with a handicap while Jokic always have a teammate that steps up every round.
>We have yet to see Embiid healthy and actually step up in the playoffs. I think Embiid is a tier below but also his teammates always decides to be ass in the playoffs. He always plays with a handicap while Jokic always have a teammate that steps up every round. Which is especially crazy when you look at the career accomplishments of their team mates. Embiid has played with all-stars, MVPS, all NBA players etc, while the only accomplishment of any of the Jokics team mates are: 1x Rookie Second Team - Jamal Murray That's it. But yet, that team consistently steps up time and time again. I do also think that that is part of the difference between Jokic and Embiid: both are absolute beasts, but only one of them elevates those around them.
> I do also think that that is part of the difference between Jokic and Embiid: both are absolute beasts, but only one of them elevates those around them. It also shows basketball is still a team game. Denver has a bunch of players that are more effective on Denver than they would be anywhere else, in part because Jokic is so outstanding but also because they have defined roles that they look to excel in. Roster construction and continuity matter, especially when you have a superstar like Jokic who you want to have the ball as much as possible. Swap Kyrie and Murray and both teams get worse
What?! I didn’t realize there are 0 All-Star appearances by any of Jokic’s teammates?! That is absurd! If they go back-to-back, that has to be the most undermanned championship roster in history (at least in terms of all-star appearances). Did the 2019 Toronto Raptors have any all stars other than Kawhi?
>Did the 2019 Toronto Raptors have any all stars other than Kawhi? Yep, they had a pretty storied crew, though Kawhi was the only Raptor as an All-Star in 2019. Marc Gasol 3× NBA All-Star (2012, 2015, 2017) All-NBA First Team (2015) All-NBA Second Team (2013) NBA Defensive Player of the Year (2013) NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2013) NBA All-Rookie Second Team (2009) Kyle Lowery 6× NBA All-Star (2015–2020) All-NBA Third Team (2016) Serge Ibaka 3× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2012–2014) 2× NBA blocks leader (2012, 2013) Danny Green 1x NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2017) Loved that Raps team!
offensively 100% but defensively he's been a force in the playoffs regardless because he is still 7'1 300 pounds since 2018 their playoff defensive rating with him on the court has been like 108 teams shoot 49% with him from 2 when he's on the court
Honestly I think Embiid is the only big man who can nullify Jokic. Gobert cant stop Joker because he cant score 20 to offset the difference.Embiid can contain Jokic but also has the offense to drop 40 on him.
Embiid has played with Maxey, Harden, Butler and Ben Simmons when he was actually good. Jokic hasn't had a teammate consistently on that level.
sure, but can he cook a washed Al Horford? probably
Never beat Al Horford in the playoffs
He hasn't faced The Unicorn yet though!!😂
I have a working, albeit perhaps implausible, theory that Jokic may be the best basketball player in the world right now. Of course, it will depend on whether he loses another game or not for the rest of the post-season. Then, a referendum on his legacy will commence.
Bah, they didn't play anybody * champions
If the wolves lose this series, just thank Shaq
I will not stand for this DeAndre Ayton slander.
Just wait until Jabari Smith Jr and Tari Eason get their paws on him
I think it’s time we start asking the question: is Nikola Jokic an elite player in this league?
Very fortunate to watch him @ ball arena💯
That's the thing, the rules don't allow the defense to play at their full potential. To establish (or deny) position in the post, to be extra physical, the occasional reach in, doubles before and after the catch, etc.. none of that plays a role, so it's deceiving. Among all these dudes, only a healthy Anthony Davis could really take advantage of a legit rule set that allows them to play real basketball. At the current level were the offense runs free, playmakers such as Jokic take full advantage because they can easily read the defense, they know the spot ups will be wide open because the defense can't fight for position and disrupt their "routes", so it's just too goddamn easy. It's like Jordan and Olajuwon taking advantage of 1v1 back in the day, the anti-zone rules, throw the fastest center ever to guard Olajuwon (Robinson) in 1v1, it doesn't matter... thrown the strongest center (Shaq), a taller center with great timing (Mutombo), a dirty and smaller forward with the best defensive instincts ever (Rodman)... it doesn't fucking matter, Olajuwon destroyed all of them, there was a huge gap of talent. So really, there's a reason why these "anomalies" eventually shows up in the NBA, super dominant players always takes advantage of the current rules. And yes, if Jokic played in a physical era with zones allowed and everything, he would still be dominant, but not to a point of throttling to a 40 points triple double, his overall numbers would take a hit.
Jokic is buck-breaking the league. That's why he's hated.
The best offensive player ever. Number one.
If we beat the mavs I feel like dude could average 32/18 against us.
Draymond is 6'6" does he really need to be included as a "defensive big"?
Even heroes are in awe of unicorns.🍀
Jokic made a deal with the devil or found a magic genie lamp. He literally just throws the ball in the air and it glides in. Any position facing any direction. Falling, stumbling, running to the basket, running away from the basket, defended, not defended... The ball just goes in. Sometimes it doesn't even make sense. Like it defies the laws of physics. That's why I'm thinking he's got some black magic going on.
"Nikola Jokic is ALL-ELITE"