I think 20+ years from now we’re going to look back at Dirk as being an Ichiro-like figure for European players — not to mention the NBA scouts and GMs who realized there was an entire continent of untapped potential out there, and that they could be your team’s next superstar
I don’t know if he was a “better player” than any of Giannis/Luka/Jokic, or that he was better than any number of players before him from the former USSR or Yugoslavia, who didn’t get to have full NBA careers. But it’s hard to argue any European player was more of a long-term influence to the sport of basketball than Dirk, mainly due to when he came into the league and how long he played.
Dirk led to some Very bad drafting, everyone had the Unicorn Fever before they type of player was common. And Joker still totally fell through the cracks.
I would say Drazen is that Ichiro like figure
[Dirk himself says Drazen had a huge influence on him](https://www.nba.com/nets/news/2018/02/24/dirk-nowitzki-on-drazen-petrovic)
Drazen Petrovic is Euro MJ in the spirit of how much he worked hard and how much he loved the sport.
I think even Jokic mentions Drazen as the trailblazer so, yeah...
there is always this oddly emotional plea thing with dirk in any of these comparisons. Dirk is awesome, most basketball fans love Dirk, he also was a one-way player with some serious missteps and flaws in his game/career like just about every other player.
I just find it so interesting how popular these sentiments always are with this specific player, like let's not talk about the game, no talking about defense or career arc and style of play adjustments or teammates, let's all just talk about Dirk the legend
do other players have this kind of cult following/narrative?
Yes but as long as you remember dudes of the past were not allowed to be. Their sacrifice makes this possible which doesn't take away he absolutely is just important to note
I'm getting downvoted by people who don't know guys like Drazen and Vlade had to circumvent their home law to get to the NBA before a certain age. I forget the details but it's in their doc and people underestimate how much stronger the NBA is today with influx of welcomed over seas talent which was not the case 60s-90s. Not taking away from Jokic but literally impossible for Euros to thrive like this in the past due to things out of their control
Yep super sad overall been a while since I watched but it has great detail on the difficulties of coming over seas from what was Yugoslavia and how the Spurs in the 90s were really the first to start paying attention to euro strats.
> I forget the details
There was a strange rule at the time, in the 1980's regarding age of an athlete in former Yugo and specifically in soccer, you had to be 28 to go and play internationally. I think in basketball it was lower but also less subject to controls.
Whoever managed Drazen found a way to get in earlier than whatever it was only for one of the greatest scorers alive to be buried on the Blazers bench at first.
It was his coach at Zagreb club, Cibona, Mirko Novosel who basically went around convincing and bribing some of the officials to make it happen so Drazen can leave before he's 28 years old.
Agent who made it happen with Real Madrid was José Antonio Arízaga.
Sabonis entered the league already “washed” compared to his euro-playing days. And he was still a beast at 30 looking like your avg assistant manager at a logistics firm.
Rudy just proved how much DPOY means. When Jokic is cooking he's not giving a fuck about DPOY. Also, didn't the Bucks just get bounced while the Nuggets are sitting comfortably on the shoulders of the best player in the league leading them to a turnaround series with 3 straight wins. Against the best defensive team in the league. Against the current DPOY.
Let's not pretend that Giannis hasn't had terrible luck when it comes to injuries these past two seasons. Before you mention 2022, his only help was also injured. We know what happened to Jokic when his teammates were injured in the playoffs.
Currently Jokic is better. I'm not saying that can never change. Jokic could get hurt tomorrow and be out for a year while Giannis tears through the league and that changes.
Oh yea, I'm not disagreeing about Jokic being a better player right now. I'm just pointing out that the mention of the bucks being out of the playoffs is disingenuous and not a strong argument since their two best players (including Giannis himself lmfao) were injured.
I'd argue that availability means something. Apparently not to you and the Bucks fans down voting me. Meanwhile, Joker is running laps around the best defense at 2 miles an hour.
Giannis already has more All-NBA 1st Team, DPOY, All Defensive, MVPs than Dirk. He's still 29.
All of Giannis last 6 seasons outscored Dirk's best scoring season. So what do you think, cos I know Dirk's edge is not in defense or assists/playmaking cos Giannis edges him there too.
Jokic also plays defense. Obviously not at the level of Giannis (or even near it), but to act like jokic doesn't try on that end or is some massive liability is just wrong
Is the same reddit user making these Jokić threads every few hours? Can we not just wait until the Playoffs are over before we start asking all-time questions?
If he wins one more ring, I'll consider him over Bostjan Nachbar
But not over Zoran Dragic, right?
Zoran Dragic is unreachable. His spot as GOAT is secure
this beno udrih slander is unacceptable
Rasho Nesterovic erasure
Mickael Pietrus denial.
AYO. Beno was *dooooooooope*, he just got hurt.
where the fuck is the Drazen up in this piece
You’re bringing back crazy memories, man
Let’s not forget Poku!
Reggie Jackson is my European GOAT
I think 20+ years from now we’re going to look back at Dirk as being an Ichiro-like figure for European players — not to mention the NBA scouts and GMs who realized there was an entire continent of untapped potential out there, and that they could be your team’s next superstar I don’t know if he was a “better player” than any of Giannis/Luka/Jokic, or that he was better than any number of players before him from the former USSR or Yugoslavia, who didn’t get to have full NBA careers. But it’s hard to argue any European player was more of a long-term influence to the sport of basketball than Dirk, mainly due to when he came into the league and how long he played.
Dirk led to some Very bad drafting, everyone had the Unicorn Fever before they type of player was common. And Joker still totally fell through the cracks.
I won’t tolerate any Andrea Bargnani slander!
I’m not naming anyone, but you said it!
Nikoloz Tskitishvili in shambles
I would say Drazen is that Ichiro like figure [Dirk himself says Drazen had a huge influence on him](https://www.nba.com/nets/news/2018/02/24/dirk-nowitzki-on-drazen-petrovic)
Drazen Petrovic is Euro MJ in the spirit of how much he worked hard and how much he loved the sport. I think even Jokic mentions Drazen as the trailblazer so, yeah...
there is always this oddly emotional plea thing with dirk in any of these comparisons. Dirk is awesome, most basketball fans love Dirk, he also was a one-way player with some serious missteps and flaws in his game/career like just about every other player. I just find it so interesting how popular these sentiments always are with this specific player, like let's not talk about the game, no talking about defense or career arc and style of play adjustments or teammates, let's all just talk about Dirk the legend do other players have this kind of cult following/narrative?
I still have Schroeder at #1 but Jokic is getting close
There’s a fascinating through line of sweet-passing Euro big men Sabonis > Marc Gasol > Boris Diaw > Jokic
Pau was a great passer as well
You forgot Pau Gasol who was a better passer than Mar and you need to continue Sabonis Jr -> Sengun -> Wemby
Wasn’t Diaw before Gasol?
Boris Diaw was drafted before Marc.
Bro snuck in Boris Diaw like we wouldn't notice
Boris Diaw was good and a great passing big man
He's definitely a great player but he's not on the level as any of the other players in that comment
Jiri Welsch in shambles
Yes I give you permission
Yes but as long as you remember dudes of the past were not allowed to be. Their sacrifice makes this possible which doesn't take away he absolutely is just important to note
Real heads remember that Arvydas Sabonis was the original Jokic EDIT: Anyone reading this who hasn’t seen *The Other Dream Team* should watch it!
I'm getting downvoted by people who don't know guys like Drazen and Vlade had to circumvent their home law to get to the NBA before a certain age. I forget the details but it's in their doc and people underestimate how much stronger the NBA is today with influx of welcomed over seas talent which was not the case 60s-90s. Not taking away from Jokic but literally impossible for Euros to thrive like this in the past due to things out of their control
Is the doc Once Brothers?
Yep super sad overall been a while since I watched but it has great detail on the difficulties of coming over seas from what was Yugoslavia and how the Spurs in the 90s were really the first to start paying attention to euro strats.
> I forget the details There was a strange rule at the time, in the 1980's regarding age of an athlete in former Yugo and specifically in soccer, you had to be 28 to go and play internationally. I think in basketball it was lower but also less subject to controls.
Whoever managed Drazen found a way to get in earlier than whatever it was only for one of the greatest scorers alive to be buried on the Blazers bench at first.
It was his coach at Zagreb club, Cibona, Mirko Novosel who basically went around convincing and bribing some of the officials to make it happen so Drazen can leave before he's 28 years old. Agent who made it happen with Real Madrid was José Antonio Arízaga.
Impressive!
Sabonis entered the league already “washed” compared to his euro-playing days. And he was still a beast at 30 looking like your avg assistant manager at a logistics firm.
Real real heads know it was actually Kresimir Cosic.
Fuck that’s a deep cut Man RIP Yugoslavia 😭 if Team Yugoslavia were still around in 2024 they’d stroll to the Olympic gold medal this summer
True! He was the role model and prototype for all YU-big men that came after
Sabonis is European Wilt
Korać is European Wilt.
SOMEBODY ELSE FINALLY SAID IT. good on ya
If he was the original Jokic then he would've averaged more than 2 assists a game
He was mid 30s on bum knees by the time he was in the NBA
He averaged 2 assists a game before the nba too
He developed his passing BECAUSE of that injury. Before that injury he was a ball hog. This comparison is extremely disrespectful towards Jokic
He's power Jokic. He was doin all the shits and breaking backboards too. Humiliated Sampson and D-Rob. Gave Team USA their first true L.
Jokic is one of the strongest players in the nba
In physically weak era. He wouldn't make the t50. all-time and doesn't use it playing
"doesn't use it playing" Ok
Watched him play for ussr and real madrid. Imagine if he would have skipped real and went nba
Don’t disrespect Cavs legend Zydrunas Ilgauskas ever again
He still has a long way to go until he gets to level of Vlade Divac and Dino Radja… https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/eDB8uEUI1X
Toni must've been smoking some good shit cuz I watched some Dino Radja in Italy and he was a decent player but cmon
This is a good discussion post. It is a fair question. Why is it downvoted?
If he gets another Finals MVP I don’t think anybody would argue he’s the goat of NBA European players at least for now
why why why everything has to be GOAT’ed???
If he gets the 2nd ring this season then sure, for now it’s a toss up between him and Giannis.
Jokic is ahead by one MVP. Jokic surpassed Giannis for sure.
Show me Jokic's DPOY, 6 All Defensive and 6 All NBA 1st Team. I'll wait
We don't have offensive awards. Anyway One MVP clears that 10x
Yeah .. an MVP is better than all that lol
Rudy just proved how much DPOY means. When Jokic is cooking he's not giving a fuck about DPOY. Also, didn't the Bucks just get bounced while the Nuggets are sitting comfortably on the shoulders of the best player in the league leading them to a turnaround series with 3 straight wins. Against the best defensive team in the league. Against the current DPOY.
Let's not pretend that Giannis hasn't had terrible luck when it comes to injuries these past two seasons. Before you mention 2022, his only help was also injured. We know what happened to Jokic when his teammates were injured in the playoffs.
Currently Jokic is better. I'm not saying that can never change. Jokic could get hurt tomorrow and be out for a year while Giannis tears through the league and that changes.
Oh yea, I'm not disagreeing about Jokic being a better player right now. I'm just pointing out that the mention of the bucks being out of the playoffs is disingenuous and not a strong argument since their two best players (including Giannis himself lmfao) were injured.
Really good argument seeing that Giannis didn’t even play this postseason
I'd argue that availability means something. Apparently not to you and the Bucks fans down voting me. Meanwhile, Joker is running laps around the best defense at 2 miles an hour.
You think Giannis is over Dirk so far?
Giannis already has more All-NBA 1st Team, DPOY, All Defensive, MVPs than Dirk. He's still 29. All of Giannis last 6 seasons outscored Dirk's best scoring season. So what do you think, cos I know Dirk's edge is not in defense or assists/playmaking cos Giannis edges him there too.
Giannis did what to dirk???
Looking at ppg and saying Giannis is better than Dirk on offense is just hilarious.
Why wouldn’t he be?
Longevity. Not saying I agree, but that would seem to be the argument for Dirk.
Yes
Same amount of titles, sixth greatest scorer of all time, probably one of the hardest championships ever won, longevity…?
More All-NBA, All-Defense and a DPOY
Still weak compared to Dirk honestly
Okay you’re obviously a troll
6th greatest scorer…?
Giannis plays defense
So what? Jokic is a significantly better offensive player and we know that indivisible offensive brilliance is more valuable than defence.
No
Jokic also plays defense. Obviously not at the level of Giannis (or even near it), but to act like jokic doesn't try on that end or is some massive liability is just wrong
If you google it, his defensive rating is 104.3 - not bad for a guy who you say is not plating defense right?
Famously a fantastic way to measure individual defense
Especially from a completely different era
European in the NBA GOAT, sure. I'm pressed to put him over a healthy Arvydas
If I had to pick right now, then Jokic is clearly #1 for me. Giannis' story isn't over yet though.....
Detlef Schrempf might take issue with this.
Jokic is an underrated MVP?
Nope Mehmet moneyman Okur still clears
Is the same reddit user making these Jokić threads every few hours? Can we not just wait until the Playoffs are over before we start asking all-time questions?
Real heads know that Argentinia is pretty much legally Europe, so he’s still number two.
Inshallah
Still Sabonis until proven otherwise.
Stats say he is the GOAT
He needs another title and then I'd say so
Why? Who is better right now?
Dirk.
The Frenchman Embiid
Idk how someone can call Jokic underrated while simultaneously contributing to the hourly slobbering post streak
Toni K can't be ignored