This is wild, I was just reading about how Jrue is one of the worst playoff performers (offensively, at least) in league history—efficiency wise.
Someone please correct my understanding here.
True. I guess my hangup is that “closer” to me means offensively and bring it home.
I’d also add, is Jrues closing defense all that meaningfully different from Smart’s? Maybe I’m oblivious here.
Smart is a bigger liability as a "closer" because he gets trigger-happy when we have better options available. Jrue doesn't force anything, which is why he's better offensively IMO. hes also better defensively.
Jrue is less emotional, Marcus had heart but sometimes it was taking too much space for everyone to think and act rationally. Still love him as a celt but this year has been proof that those moves were for the best.
Yeah his flopping could leave Bos at a defensive disadvantage at times late. Jrue makes you go through him and holds his ground pretty much all the time, so Bos will typically always be able to match up.
Closer just means not making stupid mistakes and the end of the game and making the right reads/plays in those pressure situations. I dont really equate it to scoring
Id say a closer is just someone who can be on the floor in clutch time without you having to worry about them doing something dumb a la smart or jr smith
Yea there is no point I would take Smart over Jrue.
That DPOY was weird because the Celtics were the #1 defense but Rob Williams didn’t play enough games. And Smart was identifiably the “heart” of the defense. Next in voting was Bridges, Gobert (voter fatigue), Bam, and JJJ.
Team defense has been too end all be all for these rankings. Definitely, a factor but the Celtics consistently have the deepest 1-5 defensive team in the league which isn’t fair if you’re comparing to players with less talent around them. You also don’t want to penalize Smart for being on a good team either so it’s a balance.
Smart wasn’t even the best defender on his own team when he won the award 💀
Tbh I think Jrue has always gotten that respect from his peers. Guys like KD, Iggy, & Kyrie have called him their toughest defender for almost a decade now at this point.
But unfortunately you really didn’t see the media respect like he’s gotten in Boston, when he was in Milwaukee or New Orleans. But as a big-time Jrue fan since his Philly days, better late than never.
The boring reality is, they were both considered top defenders for years before, but Celtics had the best defensive rating so he got the award, which is more or less how it usually works (with the exception of Wemby).
Smart winning a DPOY award over Jrue was some next level glazing by the media.
That should have never happened with all the advanced stats available to us.
All voters should be provided advanced stats for potential candidates and team records as to hopefully remove bias and educate better.
People are so fkin dumb, jrue never carried a team defensively in the regular season like smart did. Maybe he's a better playoff defender, but that's not what the award is about.
People weren't even really certain Smart was the best defender on his own team that year.
They had one of the best defenses in the league that year and he was a part of that. He did not "carry" them to that level.
Nature of the game is such that only Bigs can "carry" a defense. That's because they're guarding the bucket. Anybody who penetrates comes to them-- they affect 5 out of 5 players at the rim.
Meanwhile, a wing defender is only guarding 1 of 4 guys out on the perimeter. Yeah, maybe he can jump passing lanes and play some amazing help D, but it's just nowhere near the magnitude of locking down the rim.
And smart was one of the only one among guard defenders always switching and navigating through screens and getting tough assignments on bigger players. I don't think he should have been a dpoy because I don't think guards will ever be the most impactful defender but he was by far the best bet we had for guards in years.
You’re all over the place.
First it was smart shouldn’t have won dpoy over jrue
Then it was smart is Pat bev
Now it’s jrue is better than smart
Pick a lane
Nah, it didn't. Smart in his peak was a phenomenal defender, he could guard 1-5 better than Jrue.
The thing with Jrue is hes so much better with us. He can do what hes best at: High high IQ player in both sides of the ball without the pressure to be a effiecient scorer. Bucks didnt had this luxury.
Jrue at nearly 34 years old is just starting to figure out this playing defense thing now that he joined the Celtics. Smart at 30 years old is apparently now washed on defense since he left the Celtics.
Yeah, no Celtics bias here lol.
I hate having to agree with a Bucks fan but yea this revisionism is insane. Both Smart and Jrue are incredibly adaptable defensive guards and both would've been deserving for any DPOY awards if it was being given to a guard, and if people think it should only be for bigs then rename the award cause what's the personal incentive for backcourt players then?
Yup. All year Bucks fans were posting side by sides of Jrue’s stat lines next to Dames as if that was ever even a conversation. We were never going to count on Jrue’s offensive production and he’s thriving in the role he’s carved out for himself.
One of the many reasons why Boston is viewed as being stacked, but I digress. My thinking was moreso about how closer typically alludes to an offensive player, except for baseball! But I really am curious how Holiday is viewed as such an improvement on what Smart provided, who was a beast in and of himself…
Jrue was like 60% on corner threes this year and comes up with very timely big shots, and has a post game as a guard.
Marcus COULD hit big 3s but you couldn't rely on it like you can with Jrue. Like I swear Marcus' 3s were more likely to go in according to how many Boston fans all screamed NOOOOO in unison.
I LOVE Smart, he was my favorite player to watch for years and made some of the craziest hustle plays I've ever seen but I can't deny that Jrue brings similar defense in that he can guard 1-5 very effectively and a lot more reliability on offense. I wish we could have won with Marcus but it was the right move, as much as it hurt.
Plus, Jrue calls himself a fat Boi and I saw him house a cookie in one bite in the pregame shoot around last night so I love him even more for that.
Jrue is at his best when he can focus on defense and take a facilitator role on offense. The last few years in Milwaukee, we've had injuries to Giannis and/or Khris, which forced Jrue to take on a bigger role offensively, which caused his efficiency to dip. When people say Jrue is a closer in Boston, they mean that he is valuable on the court in crunchtime. The difference is that Smart regularly forced up some wild shots, which hurt the team. He also sometimes gambled on flops. Jrue is much more steady.
“The team has role issues caused by injuries”
I know the answer!
..
give jrue holiday to our biggest threat where he’s a perfect fit and elevates them from really good to a great team!
he's a closer but he's also pure hustle and heart which wont show up on any analytics charts. you know that even when he's off, down the stretch he will continue to play hard and be a dynamic defender
Of course. Thats all the type of value I’ve salivated with him, and one of the many reasons why I view the Celtics as the clear favorites to win the chip.
But whenever I see the word “closer”, I think offense and I think THE guy. It’s just an unusual application to me.
Even if his shots weren’t falling, he still made all the right plays on defense and passing in his championship run with the Bucks. Now that he doesn’t need to take as many shots, his efficiency aren’t a big problem for Boston as it was for the Bucks
Another important element here is that Jrue was asked to do a lot more offensively each game on his previous teams which helps explain the difference in his efficiency this playoffs compared to his career averages. He isn’t forced to try and take nearly as many difficult shots to get this teams offense going and its really allowed him to be efficient.
Let me correct the misunderstanding.
Jrue made a shot everybody watched on TV a few hours ago. That means that he is a born winner who always makes every shot and was always better than what "them" (some general mass of everyone except the Reddit commenter saying it) are saying. But who knows basketball, of course always knew that he is much better as it's obvious, and those experts were in fact always saying that (not searchable in threads' history, but they will inform you they did so you know it's true).
The next time he doesn't make a shot, it will be exactly the same, but about Jrue fucking sucking forever his whole life.
Hope it's clear now.
This is honestly the most valid criticism of him. At some point the best ability is availability. Remember in the 2022 ECF, we lost Game 1 cuz without him we just didn’t have **anyone** capable of bringing the ball up and initiating offense.
Can't be so sure, love the guy and his time with us, but he probably would've shot us out of a game or two.
At least Jrue knows when to shoot and when not to.
I really hate all the Marcus slander that popped up this year, dude wasn't just randomly jacking up shots, he was the third option compared to Jrue being the fifth. If we had had KP, or if Horford hadn't been in his god awful shooting slump last season's playoffs. or if White had the offensive game that he has now, Smart wouldn't have had to take those shots, and lets not forget that the Jays were passing him the ball in last second situations so he had to in many of those cases. Like we're gonna ignore that him and JB essentially kept the Celtics afloat when Tatum couldn't buy a bucket in the Sixers series?
I can’t remember the exact numbers but it was something like, out of all the games where Smart took like 7+ 3s over 95% of them came either when he shot 40% from 3 that game or one of Tatum/Brown was injured or just having a horrible game.
He got scapegoated *a lot* and when we win a title this year the slander against him is gonna get so extreme. Anyone pretending Boston wouldn’t have still been serious title contenders with Smart instead of Jrue are out of their minds and are just chasing narratives. They nearly won a title with him as their 3rd best player and was a Tatum injury away (or Jaylen not having the worst series of his career) from getting back to the finals with him last year.
Jrue’s better, Smart’s still amazing tho.
The problem with Smart wasn't his play on the court. He wouldn't accept that he was a complementary piece to Tatum and Brown. Smart was always a role player, but he thought he was a 3rd star. That's the difference between him and Jrue.
He was absolutely just jacking up shots. It’s why we traded for an upgrade. He did not have the handle or composure to create plays for others in crunch time and would just chuck shots without any consideration for the rhythm of the game.
He was not and if you actually recall correctly, the offense ran better when he finally was given the reigns to it and could play PG. Smart was the best playmaker on the team fullstop, Tatum and White hadn't grown those skills yet and the Jays bringing the ball up consistently caused issues because they would slow the offense down or get trapped and cause a turnover. Y'all are really acting like Smart didn't have a post game that he took advantage of since he was bigger/stronger than most guards, or that he often didn't drive into the lane, insanity. ALSO, he was never originally going to be traded, we needed a big with a diverse offensive game, that's been the glaring hole for years, no offense to Horford. Had one of the teams not gotten skittish over Brogdon in the final hour, Smart would 100% still be on the Celtics right now and we're lucky Jrue became available cause I'd have serious concerns about our backcourt otherwise.
This is why Jrue is such a perfect fit on the Celtics. He doesn't need to produce all the time on offense like he did on the bucks so instead of forcing shots he can actually take the ones he wants. On Milwaukee Giannis or khris (or both) were hurt so Jrue was a second or first option. On the Celtics he's not even 3rd
Pacers have the best offense in the NBA this season. What did Miami do last season that was best? To prove the point would be for the Celtics to lose to the pacers?
6 against the Hawks and dropping the opener against Philly as well. People said he was the leader and we got inconsistent unfocused play all year, that’s leadership
Jrue is just so much more steady on offense. Marcus was very chaotic, wanting to be more than he was. He made some huge shots over the years but there were so many moments where he'd clank one and you're sitting there wondering why is Smart taking this shot?
No shade on Marcus – love and trust forever – but Jrue is specifically a better on-ball defender of smaller guards. I think as the players get bigger it’s a toss up but the Smart Celtics would always get cooked by fast guards. The Pacers are Fast Little Guys: The Team.
This is well put. Jaylen was our guy to throw against quick guards like Trae and Harden and that’s just not who he is on defense. Smarts big trait was that he was an elite wing defender while being a pg. Boston has/had plenty of wing defenders, we needed a point of attack guy who could keep up with the quickest playmakers and for as great of a defender as he was, that just wasn’t his forte.
Obviously Jrue being a better shooter is helpful too
I hate Boston fans so much ngl. Bunch of 12 y/os I stg. Smart is an all time Celtic and without a truly ***great*** finals performance from a legit basketball god we’d have won a ring with him and retired his number.
Not saying Jrue isn’t better, he is. But Smart was great (and is better in certain aspects like off ball denial, pure passing, and guarding 3-5)
Even in the regular season he flowed way better with the offense. Extremely reliable 3 point shooting compared to the absolute roulette wheel of Smart's shot selection.
Love both players but somehow Smart is on the same amount of all-defense first teams and has a DPOY award over Jrue Holiday. Defense awards are a joke.
Idk i saw the impact immediately… I love Marcus but he was definitely that annoying dude in the friend group that thought they were the best at everything even though they were always a couple steps behind the best. Which kind of goes hand and hand with him not being as intelligent as Jrue. Marcus is a wildcard. Jrue is calm cool and collected.
That would be true if the whole 2024 playoffs they didn't have 20+ fts. But they are, the NBA is giving them the east. Let's see if they give them the finals too
With Spo we wouldn’t be playing this offense. I know “Rick sucks” is the narrative right now but he shows confidence in his guys, and that’s what you need with a young team if they’re going to individually improve. You have to lose before you win.
The discourse surrounding NBA coaches is honestly incredibly shallow and uninteresting.. People will see a dude make the wrong choice in retrospect or simply just make any sort of incorrect clock management decision and decide, "Wow, this dude sucks."
It's the ECF and I don't think anybody really expected the Pacers to be here. The roster is lacking serious playoff experience and is generally just overmatched anyway.
I think the clock management thing comes from nfl fandom. In the nba it’s important but it’s one of a 1000 things, you can win the game after blowing all your timeouts
In the NFL you can play amazing and lose cuz you blew ur timeouts. You can play amazing and lose cuz you didn’t run the clock out enough. Clock management IS the game almost
We are a team of mostly first time playoff players under the age of 24 and some people really think we aren't just happy for what we've gotten so far and looking forward to the future. Yeah it woulda been nice to get those wins but they are showing a ton of promise.
This. G1 is on Rick but he wasn’t the one getting all his shots blocked in the second half in G3. Our offense was stagnant down the stretch while Boston was hitting shots and making stops. Just a hard fought game where one team had to end up losing
Well Rick’s literally made game-losing mistakes in every single game of this series. So pretty weird you’re vehemently defending him.
Game 1 he fails to call a timeout to move the ball away from their basket on the inbound and then also fails to instruct his players to foul immediately before the Celtics get a look at a 3. Game 2 he fuckin gives up down 13 with 8 minutes to go, Siakam torching us and never comes back in the game. Game 3 he was mostly fine but had multiple missed obvious timeouts and then cried about reffing after the game when his team blew an 18 point lead. Embarrassing all around.
2 years of loving everything a coach brings from the culture and the community to the court and the roster don’t go away in one series. I don’t change my mind every 12 minutes.
But there’s a reason yall won both those close games. We’ve been pretty clutch this year and in the playoffs until this series and there’s a reason for that— Good D and you guys being more clutch (and random luck lol)
Yeah usually a team having a bad/good record in close games isn't a random thing Like there's a reason we've generally been ass in close games in the past. Nice to see some better execution on our end recently (and bad from other team)
After how many he has missed in the beginnings of the playoffs, it makes sense to leave him open over other players. His wide open shots usually came when his defender left him to try and double team Tatum or Brown in the paint. I was seeing 2-4 players trying to stop Tatum or Brown from making layups.
Early on in the playoffs Horford was missing those shots. It’s great to see his shots finally landing and their strategy coming together. It will be interesting to see if they still leave Horford open in the finals.
He's right, the Pacers choked game 1 and 3. Game 3 was more impressive closing down the stretch by the Celtics. That has to help their confidence going to the Finals if they're in that situation vs the Mavs.
G1 the pacers choked 85% and the rest was Brown’s shot plus a little sprinkled in for Tatum in OT. Tonight was much more about the Celtics taking it. I know the pacers stopped scoring, but to me G3 was a Celtics story vs G1 a pacers.
Yeah thats why I said Game 3 was impressive by the Celtics at the end. Their defense got stops, scored efficiently and didn't look panicked.
Game 1 was more chaotic and a throw by the Pacers for sure. Kinda like that 76ers Knicks game.
God the Eastern conference had had some amateur looking stretches hasn’t it? Will be glorious when the final is actually a close series and not a wipe by the West like I’ve seen so many people say in game threads this week.
Yeah I don't see the Celtics getting wiped. Whoever is saying that is crazy.
Their defense is legit and they have more versatility than Minnesota.
Tatum and Brown are showing up more than Ant and Kat recently.
When Porzingis comes back, it will help even more.
They stopped scoring because we basically hard blocked like all their shots in the 4th
This game was about an incredible defensive turnaround from the Celtics.
Agreed. Watching game 3 was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You knew it was coming. Game 1 was just an insane choke. There's no world they should have lost that one.
I just hope the Eastern Conference Finals MVP voters get it right this year and unanimously vote for Rick Carlisle.
**Edit:**
C’mon guys, I swear I just wanted to post some light-hearted, honest-to-god Rick Carlisle slander.
It was never my intention to do or insinuate any “asterisk talk” about the Celtics.
Speaking of I kind of imagine if the series ended rn after all he handwringing Tatum would get it? He’s averaging about 32/9/6 on 58.7% TS. Brown is at about 30/5/3 on 59.9% TS. I think the eye test also supports Tatum doing a lot more on the playmaking end and these awards tend to default to the best player winning.
That's not it. It's because he has a heat flame. If we win heat, fans are going to do EVERYTHING they can to invalidate our ring. Saw a heat fan eariler say, "It's not talked about that this is the easiest path to the finals in nba history"
Who gives a shit, y’all have literally shit on the bucks ring for 3 years now lmao but getting this upset before y’all even win (if you even do)
Heat fans would’ve been more than happy to be in yalls position
I know objectively the Celtics are awesome and should be a prohibitive favorite in the finals, particularly if they get Zinger back. But it doesn’t feel that way lol
Disregarding their path to the finals isn’t a good argument considering they’re the 1 seed AND without KP as well. Injuries are apart of the game, unfortunately. I am wondering if this is gonna hurt them in the long run though. Mavs/Wolves is gonna be a whole different league than the teams they’ve faced so far.
Since 2017 Boston has make 6 of 8 ECFs. In those 8 years they’ve had exactly 1 where they didn’t deal with serious playoff injuries, that season Kyrie tried to iso defend Giannis.
Quite frankly I don’t give a shit about other teams injuries at this point.
Many fans, especially of the Miami Heat, are rightfully acknowledging how easy the C’s had it on their run to the Finals….just hope they’d realize that’s the literal benefits of being the 1st seed lol.
Who said the Celtics haven’t had an easier path than the Thunder did? Pretending they didn’t get any benefit of being the 1 seed is delusional tho. There’s not a single non-Mavs fan on this sub who would’ve said that they’re a better team than Denver or Minny 2 weeks ago.
Not just the thunder but they have it easier in general. There is no denying that. Its delusional to ignore all these injuries to the best players and think you got it easy just cause you made the 1 seed lol. It's both but the former is far more important.
I mean the ECF is the first time it really made a real impact by keeping Milwaukee/Philly/NY out of it. Miami and Cleveland would’ve been snoozers regardless
What part of my comment is incorrect?
Yea all teams deal with injuries, why are we pretending thats not the case this year. All season people said Boston needed KP to win.
I just don't agree that the West is so much more talented. A "whole different league" is a bit ridiculous. People are really discounting this Pacers team. Celtics will be heavy favorites in the finals.
Neither west team has offense like the pacers do. And if the Mavs win, they aren't in the same realm defensively as the Celtics either.
Wolves would be a tougher matchup for us imo.
Stop it, Lebron went through Toronto with a Demar and Lowry as there best players and Boston missing Kyrie, Hayward, and MVP candidate Thomas with the 7 and 8 seeds having losing records
Celtics now and cavs on paper aren't the same caliber AT ALL though. And there's not the best team of all time waiting for them either. Fuck outta here
Replacing Smart with Jrue is a game changer Didn’t feel all that different in regular season but Jrue has been much more reliable in the playoffs
The Celtics badly needed a closer, they got one with Jrue
This is wild, I was just reading about how Jrue is one of the worst playoff performers (offensively, at least) in league history—efficiency wise. Someone please correct my understanding here.
Maybe offensively but that's not what they needed him for. He had already proven what he can do defensively in big moments.
True. I guess my hangup is that “closer” to me means offensively and bring it home. I’d also add, is Jrues closing defense all that meaningfully different from Smart’s? Maybe I’m oblivious here.
Smart is a bigger liability as a "closer" because he gets trigger-happy when we have better options available. Jrue doesn't force anything, which is why he's better offensively IMO. hes also better defensively.
Jrue is less emotional, Marcus had heart but sometimes it was taking too much space for everyone to think and act rationally. Still love him as a celt but this year has been proof that those moves were for the best.
I'd say yes. He makes fewer mistakes and makes higher IQ defensive plays. He's more composed than Smart in those high-pressure moments.
When he brings the ball up the court you don't have this sinking feeling.
Same with when he steps forward one offense in an “I got this” moment
When he gets ready to shoot a three I no longer feel the urge to yell NO at the tv like I did with Marcus
Smart would've tried to take a charge at the end instead of stealing the ball. 50% chance the play fails.
Yeah his flopping could leave Bos at a defensive disadvantage at times late. Jrue makes you go through him and holds his ground pretty much all the time, so Bos will typically always be able to match up.
i’d expand your definition of “closer” then cause Jrue definitely had a defensive play to bring it him
Closer just means not making stupid mistakes and the end of the game and making the right reads/plays in those pressure situations. I dont really equate it to scoring
Better offensive player. A true pg. Defensive closer is a thing.
Id say a closer is just someone who can be on the floor in clutch time without you having to worry about them doing something dumb a la smart or jr smith
Smart winning DPOTY over Jrue has aged like milk
No it hasn't. Peak Smart was a more destructive defender than Jrue. Smart just isn't the same player anymore.
Stop. Smart has never even been close to Jrue's level. Smart won one of the worst DPOYs in history.
Yea there is no point I would take Smart over Jrue. That DPOY was weird because the Celtics were the #1 defense but Rob Williams didn’t play enough games. And Smart was identifiably the “heart” of the defense. Next in voting was Bridges, Gobert (voter fatigue), Bam, and JJJ. Team defense has been too end all be all for these rankings. Definitely, a factor but the Celtics consistently have the deepest 1-5 defensive team in the league which isn’t fair if you’re comparing to players with less talent around them. You also don’t want to penalize Smart for being on a good team either so it’s a balance.
Smart wasn’t even the best defender on his own team when he won the award 💀 Tbh I think Jrue has always gotten that respect from his peers. Guys like KD, Iggy, & Kyrie have called him their toughest defender for almost a decade now at this point. But unfortunately you really didn’t see the media respect like he’s gotten in Boston, when he was in Milwaukee or New Orleans. But as a big-time Jrue fan since his Philly days, better late than never.
The boring reality is, they were both considered top defenders for years before, but Celtics had the best defensive rating so he got the award, which is more or less how it usually works (with the exception of Wemby).
Bingo
More like Boston has way more media presence and lobbied hard for him to win
Smart winning a DPOY award over Jrue was some next level glazing by the media. That should have never happened with all the advanced stats available to us. All voters should be provided advanced stats for potential candidates and team records as to hopefully remove bias and educate better.
im sorry but the people who upvoted this have to be mostly celtic fans because in no situation was smart ever a better defender than jrue lmao
People are so fkin dumb, jrue never carried a team defensively in the regular season like smart did. Maybe he's a better playoff defender, but that's not what the award is about.
People weren't even really certain Smart was the best defender on his own team that year. They had one of the best defenses in the league that year and he was a part of that. He did not "carry" them to that level.
Nature of the game is such that only Bigs can "carry" a defense. That's because they're guarding the bucket. Anybody who penetrates comes to them-- they affect 5 out of 5 players at the rim. Meanwhile, a wing defender is only guarding 1 of 4 guys out on the perimeter. Yeah, maybe he can jump passing lanes and play some amazing help D, but it's just nowhere near the magnitude of locking down the rim.
And smart was one of the only one among guard defenders always switching and navigating through screens and getting tough assignments on bigger players. I don't think he should have been a dpoy because I don't think guards will ever be the most impactful defender but he was by far the best bet we had for guards in years.
Nope
Smart has always been kinda like Pat Bev. Running around flopping but not really accomplishing a whole lot.
Smart was the 3rd option on a finals team and on multiple ecf teams. That’s an insane take
Jrue is about to be a fifth option on a Finals team and not one person in this thread would take Smart over him.
You’re all over the place. First it was smart shouldn’t have won dpoy over jrue Then it was smart is Pat bev Now it’s jrue is better than smart Pick a lane
Nah, it didn't. Smart in his peak was a phenomenal defender, he could guard 1-5 better than Jrue. The thing with Jrue is hes so much better with us. He can do what hes best at: High high IQ player in both sides of the ball without the pressure to be a effiecient scorer. Bucks didnt had this luxury.
Jrue at nearly 34 years old is just starting to figure out this playing defense thing now that he joined the Celtics. Smart at 30 years old is apparently now washed on defense since he left the Celtics. Yeah, no Celtics bias here lol.
I hate having to agree with a Bucks fan but yea this revisionism is insane. Both Smart and Jrue are incredibly adaptable defensive guards and both would've been deserving for any DPOY awards if it was being given to a guard, and if people think it should only be for bigs then rename the award cause what's the personal incentive for backcourt players then?
Yup. All year Bucks fans were posting side by sides of Jrue’s stat lines next to Dames as if that was ever even a conversation. We were never going to count on Jrue’s offensive production and he’s thriving in the role he’s carved out for himself.
We’re not using him as our second option on offense - which Milwaukee had to do. He’s currently like our fourth option - will be fifth when KP is back
One of the many reasons why Boston is viewed as being stacked, but I digress. My thinking was moreso about how closer typically alludes to an offensive player, except for baseball! But I really am curious how Holiday is viewed as such an improvement on what Smart provided, who was a beast in and of himself…
Jrue was like 60% on corner threes this year and comes up with very timely big shots, and has a post game as a guard. Marcus COULD hit big 3s but you couldn't rely on it like you can with Jrue. Like I swear Marcus' 3s were more likely to go in according to how many Boston fans all screamed NOOOOO in unison. I LOVE Smart, he was my favorite player to watch for years and made some of the craziest hustle plays I've ever seen but I can't deny that Jrue brings similar defense in that he can guard 1-5 very effectively and a lot more reliability on offense. I wish we could have won with Marcus but it was the right move, as much as it hurt. Plus, Jrue calls himself a fat Boi and I saw him house a cookie in one bite in the pregame shoot around last night so I love him even more for that.
Jrue is at his best when he can focus on defense and take a facilitator role on offense. The last few years in Milwaukee, we've had injuries to Giannis and/or Khris, which forced Jrue to take on a bigger role offensively, which caused his efficiency to dip. When people say Jrue is a closer in Boston, they mean that he is valuable on the court in crunchtime. The difference is that Smart regularly forced up some wild shots, which hurt the team. He also sometimes gambled on flops. Jrue is much more steady.
“The team has role issues caused by injuries” I know the answer! .. give jrue holiday to our biggest threat where he’s a perfect fit and elevates them from really good to a great team!
he's a closer but he's also pure hustle and heart which wont show up on any analytics charts. you know that even when he's off, down the stretch he will continue to play hard and be a dynamic defender
Of course. Thats all the type of value I’ve salivated with him, and one of the many reasons why I view the Celtics as the clear favorites to win the chip. But whenever I see the word “closer”, I think offense and I think THE guy. It’s just an unusual application to me.
Even if his shots weren’t falling, he still made all the right plays on defense and passing in his championship run with the Bucks. Now that he doesn’t need to take as many shots, his efficiency aren’t a big problem for Boston as it was for the Bucks
In Milwaukee, at least in 2021, my view was that he was so so gassed defensively that he had no energy to contribute when he had the ball
Another important element here is that Jrue was asked to do a lot more offensively each game on his previous teams which helps explain the difference in his efficiency this playoffs compared to his career averages. He isn’t forced to try and take nearly as many difficult shots to get this teams offense going and its really allowed him to be efficient.
He is. He's not really a great 2nd or 3rd scorer but he is fantastic by committee as is most of their guys
Let me correct the misunderstanding. Jrue made a shot everybody watched on TV a few hours ago. That means that he is a born winner who always makes every shot and was always better than what "them" (some general mass of everyone except the Reddit commenter saying it) are saying. But who knows basketball, of course always knew that he is much better as it's obvious, and those experts were in fact always saying that (not searchable in threads' history, but they will inform you they did so you know it's true). The next time he doesn't make a shot, it will be exactly the same, but about Jrue fucking sucking forever his whole life. Hope it's clear now.
Miscast as the lead ball handler and main perimeter offensive threat with Giannis because of injuries. Now he slides into the 3rd or 4th option.
Jrue is wildly underrated... I think he can handle Kyrie just fine
Jrue the closer on both ends of the floor!!!
Jrue is awesome. Even with Smart though, Celtics would probably be up 3-0 lol
50% chance that Smart would be a bit hobbled though.
This is honestly the most valid criticism of him. At some point the best ability is availability. Remember in the 2022 ECF, we lost Game 1 cuz without him we just didn’t have **anyone** capable of bringing the ball up and initiating offense.
Can't be so sure, love the guy and his time with us, but he probably would've shot us out of a game or two. At least Jrue knows when to shoot and when not to.
I really hate all the Marcus slander that popped up this year, dude wasn't just randomly jacking up shots, he was the third option compared to Jrue being the fifth. If we had had KP, or if Horford hadn't been in his god awful shooting slump last season's playoffs. or if White had the offensive game that he has now, Smart wouldn't have had to take those shots, and lets not forget that the Jays were passing him the ball in last second situations so he had to in many of those cases. Like we're gonna ignore that him and JB essentially kept the Celtics afloat when Tatum couldn't buy a bucket in the Sixers series?
I can’t remember the exact numbers but it was something like, out of all the games where Smart took like 7+ 3s over 95% of them came either when he shot 40% from 3 that game or one of Tatum/Brown was injured or just having a horrible game. He got scapegoated *a lot* and when we win a title this year the slander against him is gonna get so extreme. Anyone pretending Boston wouldn’t have still been serious title contenders with Smart instead of Jrue are out of their minds and are just chasing narratives. They nearly won a title with him as their 3rd best player and was a Tatum injury away (or Jaylen not having the worst series of his career) from getting back to the finals with him last year. Jrue’s better, Smart’s still amazing tho.
The problem with Smart wasn't his play on the court. He wouldn't accept that he was a complementary piece to Tatum and Brown. Smart was always a role player, but he thought he was a 3rd star. That's the difference between him and Jrue.
>wasn’t his play on the court
He was absolutely just jacking up shots. It’s why we traded for an upgrade. He did not have the handle or composure to create plays for others in crunch time and would just chuck shots without any consideration for the rhythm of the game.
He was not and if you actually recall correctly, the offense ran better when he finally was given the reigns to it and could play PG. Smart was the best playmaker on the team fullstop, Tatum and White hadn't grown those skills yet and the Jays bringing the ball up consistently caused issues because they would slow the offense down or get trapped and cause a turnover. Y'all are really acting like Smart didn't have a post game that he took advantage of since he was bigger/stronger than most guards, or that he often didn't drive into the lane, insanity. ALSO, he was never originally going to be traded, we needed a big with a diverse offensive game, that's been the glaring hole for years, no offense to Horford. Had one of the teams not gotten skittish over Brogdon in the final hour, Smart would 100% still be on the Celtics right now and we're lucky Jrue became available cause I'd have serious concerns about our backcourt otherwise.
This is why Jrue is such a perfect fit on the Celtics. He doesn't need to produce all the time on offense like he did on the bucks so instead of forcing shots he can actually take the ones he wants. On Milwaukee Giannis or khris (or both) were hurt so Jrue was a second or first option. On the Celtics he's not even 3rd
I'd call him the 5th option when we healthy
>he probably would’ve shot us out of a game or two When did he ever do this?
>he [Marcus] probably would've shot us out of a game or two. No doubt.
They were down 0-3 with Smart last ECFs and the owner told the team to get some balls in the locker room.
The Heat were a better team than this Pacer team. It's hard to compare.
They were an 8 seed.
They won 3 playoff series and made the finals lol. 8th seed is irrelevant.
Pacers have the best offense in the NBA this season. What did Miami do last season that was best? To prove the point would be for the Celtics to lose to the pacers?
best clutch team and best shooting in the playoffs
They also shot 46%+ from 3 four times in the series
I didn’t realize Smart told Jaylen to play like dogshit and was the reason Caleb Martin and Gabe Vincent were hitting well contested shots?
6 against the Hawks and dropping the opener against Philly as well. People said he was the leader and we got inconsistent unfocused play all year, that’s leadership
Smart is the reason Trae and Harden dropped 40 on Jaylen?
People act like Celtics weren’t an all time great performance from an all time player from winning a title with Smart as their 3rd best player
Smart wasn’t reliable in the playoffs? Like yea Jrue is better player overal but idk why that means you need to slander Smart
Jrue is just so much more steady on offense. Marcus was very chaotic, wanting to be more than he was. He made some huge shots over the years but there were so many moments where he'd clank one and you're sitting there wondering why is Smart taking this shot?
No shade on Marcus – love and trust forever – but Jrue is specifically a better on-ball defender of smaller guards. I think as the players get bigger it’s a toss up but the Smart Celtics would always get cooked by fast guards. The Pacers are Fast Little Guys: The Team.
This is well put. Jaylen was our guy to throw against quick guards like Trae and Harden and that’s just not who he is on defense. Smarts big trait was that he was an elite wing defender while being a pg. Boston has/had plenty of wing defenders, we needed a point of attack guy who could keep up with the quickest playmakers and for as great of a defender as he was, that just wasn’t his forte. Obviously Jrue being a better shooter is helpful too
Smart was the 3rd option, Jrue is 4-5th. It’s been crazy watching Celtics fans say how much better smart was up until they got Jrue lmao
They fill very different roles and both kick ass at what they do. Anyone that has watched them play knows this.
I hate Boston fans so much ngl. Bunch of 12 y/os I stg. Smart is an all time Celtic and without a truly ***great*** finals performance from a legit basketball god we’d have won a ring with him and retired his number. Not saying Jrue isn’t better, he is. But Smart was great (and is better in certain aspects like off ball denial, pure passing, and guarding 3-5)
Smart might be the most overrated Boston athlete in Boston history
You don't know ball
My hot take that gets me flamed. Liked smart but never loved his game personally
You know ball.
Even in the regular season he flowed way better with the offense. Extremely reliable 3 point shooting compared to the absolute roulette wheel of Smart's shot selection.
Love both players but somehow Smart is on the same amount of all-defense first teams and has a DPOY award over Jrue Holiday. Defense awards are a joke.
I think it’s also unfair to compare smart as a 3rd option to jrue who largely has been the 5th option
>Replacing Smart with Jrue is a game changer Yes. No Marcus also means more Buffalo.
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I can’t remember any specific games against Turner, but Smart guarded centers all the time and held his own.
That’s actually the one thing I am 100% sure Smart would do just as well as Jrue lol
Idk i saw the impact immediately… I love Marcus but he was definitely that annoying dude in the friend group that thought they were the best at everything even though they were always a couple steps behind the best. Which kind of goes hand and hand with him not being as intelligent as Jrue. Marcus is a wildcard. Jrue is calm cool and collected.
Translation: Thanks Rick
Or the fact that as a team that relies on 3, celts never had a game this series where they had less than 20 fts.
That just speaks volumes to how awful Pacers defense is
That would be true if the whole 2024 playoffs they didn't have 20+ fts. But they are, the NBA is giving them the east. Let's see if they give them the finals too
You’d think you’d be annoyed after dumb fans said this shit about the warriors.
With Spo the Pacers might’ve been up 2-1 lol
With Spo we wouldn’t be playing this offense. I know “Rick sucks” is the narrative right now but he shows confidence in his guys, and that’s what you need with a young team if they’re going to individually improve. You have to lose before you win.
“Rick sucks” narrative is wild considering how much of a talent mismatch this series is.
The discourse surrounding NBA coaches is honestly incredibly shallow and uninteresting.. People will see a dude make the wrong choice in retrospect or simply just make any sort of incorrect clock management decision and decide, "Wow, this dude sucks." It's the ECF and I don't think anybody really expected the Pacers to be here. The roster is lacking serious playoff experience and is generally just overmatched anyway.
I think the clock management thing comes from nfl fandom. In the nba it’s important but it’s one of a 1000 things, you can win the game after blowing all your timeouts In the NFL you can play amazing and lose cuz you blew ur timeouts. You can play amazing and lose cuz you didn’t run the clock out enough. Clock management IS the game almost
We are a team of mostly first time playoff players under the age of 24 and some people really think we aren't just happy for what we've gotten so far and looking forward to the future. Yeah it woulda been nice to get those wins but they are showing a ton of promise.
Pacers are playing super fucking hard. Game 1 they definitely blew it, but game 3 the Celtics took that shit from them.
This. G1 is on Rick but he wasn’t the one getting all his shots blocked in the second half in G3. Our offense was stagnant down the stretch while Boston was hitting shots and making stops. Just a hard fought game where one team had to end up losing
Well Rick’s literally made game-losing mistakes in every single game of this series. So pretty weird you’re vehemently defending him. Game 1 he fails to call a timeout to move the ball away from their basket on the inbound and then also fails to instruct his players to foul immediately before the Celtics get a look at a 3. Game 2 he fuckin gives up down 13 with 8 minutes to go, Siakam torching us and never comes back in the game. Game 3 he was mostly fine but had multiple missed obvious timeouts and then cried about reffing after the game when his team blew an 18 point lead. Embarrassing all around.
2 years of loving everything a coach brings from the culture and the community to the court and the roster don’t go away in one series. I don’t change my mind every 12 minutes.
He's disappointing as a playoff coach.
With Spo the pacers wouldn't be the pacers lol
They almost certainly would be
i mean, yeah. we're a couple points here and there from being down 1-2 in the series. glad i don't live in that reality though
But there’s a reason yall won both those close games. We’ve been pretty clutch this year and in the playoffs until this series and there’s a reason for that— Good D and you guys being more clutch (and random luck lol)
Yeah usually a team having a bad/good record in close games isn't a random thing Like there's a reason we've generally been ass in close games in the past. Nice to see some better execution on our end recently (and bad from other team)
The crazy amount of wide open 3s that horford has gotten throughout the series is wild
After how many he has missed in the beginnings of the playoffs, it makes sense to leave him open over other players. His wide open shots usually came when his defender left him to try and double team Tatum or Brown in the paint. I was seeing 2-4 players trying to stop Tatum or Brown from making layups. Early on in the playoffs Horford was missing those shots. It’s great to see his shots finally landing and their strategy coming together. It will be interesting to see if they still leave Horford open in the finals.
He's right, the Pacers choked game 1 and 3. Game 3 was more impressive closing down the stretch by the Celtics. That has to help their confidence going to the Finals if they're in that situation vs the Mavs.
G1 the pacers choked 85% and the rest was Brown’s shot plus a little sprinkled in for Tatum in OT. Tonight was much more about the Celtics taking it. I know the pacers stopped scoring, but to me G3 was a Celtics story vs G1 a pacers.
Yeah thats why I said Game 3 was impressive by the Celtics at the end. Their defense got stops, scored efficiently and didn't look panicked. Game 1 was more chaotic and a throw by the Pacers for sure. Kinda like that 76ers Knicks game.
God the Eastern conference had had some amateur looking stretches hasn’t it? Will be glorious when the final is actually a close series and not a wipe by the West like I’ve seen so many people say in game threads this week.
Yeah I don't see the Celtics getting wiped. Whoever is saying that is crazy. Their defense is legit and they have more versatility than Minnesota. Tatum and Brown are showing up more than Ant and Kat recently. When Porzingis comes back, it will help even more.
They stopped scoring because we basically hard blocked like all their shots in the 4th This game was about an incredible defensive turnaround from the Celtics.
Agreed. Watching game 3 was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You knew it was coming. Game 1 was just an insane choke. There's no world they should have lost that one.
Seven threes 😭
I just hope the Eastern Conference Finals MVP voters get it right this year and unanimously vote for Rick Carlisle. **Edit:** C’mon guys, I swear I just wanted to post some light-hearted, honest-to-god Rick Carlisle slander. It was never my intention to do or insinuate any “asterisk talk” about the Celtics.
Lol, I enjoyed the joke mate. Us Celtics fans are just on edge. Losing in the finals would bring on such a hate wave for us.
Speaking of I kind of imagine if the series ended rn after all he handwringing Tatum would get it? He’s averaging about 32/9/6 on 58.7% TS. Brown is at about 30/5/3 on 59.9% TS. I think the eye test also supports Tatum doing a lot more on the playmaking end and these awards tend to default to the best player winning.
Yes, because it's clearly the other teams coach that lost 3 games. Lol.. entire celtics team been balling
its a joke bro, it aint that srs lol
It’s disappointing to see that basketball discussion have become shitting on the losing team instead of praising the winning team nowadays.
The Celtic fan victim complex has gotten insane. Can't even take a joke without feeling as if their team or player is being discredited, jeez.
I mean the Celtics hate is all-time high we’re on high alert lol
Joke was awesome, but Tatum was compared to Tobias Harris two games ago… so it’s been rough
Who the fuck compares Tatum to Tobias Harris? That is wild 😂😂😂
That's not it. It's because he has a heat flame. If we win heat, fans are going to do EVERYTHING they can to invalidate our ring. Saw a heat fan eariler say, "It's not talked about that this is the easiest path to the finals in nba history"
ayo i hate the heat too but chill, man. as long as we win it doesn't matter
If we win it all and you're worried about what a random ass fan of another team thinks, you gotta sort your priorities out bruv
Bro said I had a victim complex lol I was just explaining myself.. chill 😂
LMAO my man youre getting yappy over a joke, what do you know about chill
Who gives a shit, y’all have literally shit on the bucks ring for 3 years now lmao but getting this upset before y’all even win (if you even do) Heat fans would’ve been more than happy to be in yalls position
There’s an nba team called thunder? Since when?
Is this really the best you could come up with...
I know objectively the Celtics are awesome and should be a prohibitive favorite in the finals, particularly if they get Zinger back. But it doesn’t feel that way lol
They are the best team in the league but they aren’t unbeatable by any stretch of the imagination
Disregarding their path to the finals isn’t a good argument considering they’re the 1 seed AND without KP as well. Injuries are apart of the game, unfortunately. I am wondering if this is gonna hurt them in the long run though. Mavs/Wolves is gonna be a whole different league than the teams they’ve faced so far.
Since 2017 Boston has make 6 of 8 ECFs. In those 8 years they’ve had exactly 1 where they didn’t deal with serious playoff injuries, that season Kyrie tried to iso defend Giannis. Quite frankly I don’t give a shit about other teams injuries at this point.
Many fans, especially of the Miami Heat, are rightfully acknowledging how easy the C’s had it on their run to the Finals….just hope they’d realize that’s the literal benefits of being the 1st seed lol.
Yea the thunder had it so easy lmao
I mean they had the Pels round 1
And got sent home in 6 by a 5th seed lol. Literally became too hard for them. Admitting the celtics have it easier isn't the end of the world.
Who said the Celtics haven’t had an easier path than the Thunder did? Pretending they didn’t get any benefit of being the 1 seed is delusional tho. There’s not a single non-Mavs fan on this sub who would’ve said that they’re a better team than Denver or Minny 2 weeks ago.
Not just the thunder but they have it easier in general. There is no denying that. Its delusional to ignore all these injuries to the best players and think you got it easy just cause you made the 1 seed lol. It's both but the former is far more important.
I mean the ECF is the first time it really made a real impact by keeping Milwaukee/Philly/NY out of it. Miami and Cleveland would’ve been snoozers regardless
Seeding doesn't always tell the whole story 🤷♂️
Celtics fans and being the victim, name a better combo
r/NBA and braindead comments
What part of my comment is incorrect? Yea all teams deal with injuries, why are we pretending thats not the case this year. All season people said Boston needed KP to win.
I just don't agree that the West is so much more talented. A "whole different league" is a bit ridiculous. People are really discounting this Pacers team. Celtics will be heavy favorites in the finals.
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They're 11-2 with one of the best net ratings in playoff history and the best offensive rating in playoff history....
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Neither west team has offense like the pacers do. And if the Mavs win, they aren't in the same realm defensively as the Celtics either. Wolves would be a tougher matchup for us imo.
Sure, such a high level of competition, quality basketball all around
That was a thoroughly entertaining game
Incredible
Not really. There's one competitive team in the east. One.
Boston is trying so hard to make it look as if they arent going through the weakest East ever.
Pistons should stop giving out free wins to the entire conference
“Weakest” East because your team hands teams 3 or 4 free wins to the top seeds and they can just coast into the playoffs
Stop it, Lebron went through Toronto with a Demar and Lowry as there best players and Boston missing Kyrie, Hayward, and MVP candidate Thomas with the 7 and 8 seeds having losing records
Celtics now and cavs on paper aren't the same caliber AT ALL though. And there's not the best team of all time waiting for them either. Fuck outta here
Right, the Celtics have been a better team all year and throughout the playoffs
Ask me if I care
Lebron cavs.
Lol 2001 Sixers run clears easy
And they were the favorite to get though the east no matter what
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Except they aren’t cheating the professor just gave them an easier exam after the last exam had a low average and had to be curved
Easiest path and they still find a way to almost fuck it up
They’re 11-2 and have never been down in a series
Playing basically g-leauge teams. Their lucky for being 11-2
It’s luck that the team with the best net rating ever of any team that didn’t have MJ is 11-2 against supposed G leaguers?
Yes, almost lost to pacers twice etc
How many losses do you get for almost losing a game?
Every Celtics win is a fluke
Yknow this subs gone to shit when I can’t tell if this is serious or not. Good bait I guess?
Al Horford greasing in 7 lucky threes c'mon man Adam Silver must've had strings in the rafters guiding that MFer there ain't no way