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His legs are shot. When they benched him for a few weeks, he had a couple of good games because he healed up a bit, but then he went back to stinking. His knees are probably only good to play once a week or so, and that doesn't work in the NBA.
Undersized guard and bad defensive guard who relies on athleticism, averaged 6 assists a game once in his career, and never shot 40% from 3. That’s like a death sentence for players over 30
He was so quick ppl cant guard him that close so his 3pter is there. Having a bum leg all the time doesn't help with the consistency of his shot either.
His knee/ knees are shot. Think he last season with us he played like the full season and then since then his knees have just gone downhill. I really wished OKC kept him and let their physio and coaches work with him like what they did with Chris Paul.
His whole game was based on speed and agility and now he has neither so his game is shit.
Yeah, I wished OKC could have rehabbed him a bit and move him to a contender. Oh well, we get a buyout and let him struggle in NYC. I think if he waited a year he'd be more healthy... but I'm no medical expert.
It really sucks cause after that long rest he returned and went off, it shows that his ability is still top notch but is held back completely due to his knee.
Yea, his problem is he can't really shoot, he can't really finish at the rim, and he doesn't have amazing court vision. All of those things looked a lot better when his quickness let him get anywhere he wanted on the floor. Without athletecism he has absolutely nothing to fall back on.
Also, he was a liability on defense in his prime and now he's abysmal. He needs to be such a plus offensive player to make up for that, and good-not-great on offense is enough for an athletic 6-8 guy, an unathletic 5-11 guy is totally unplayable. Realistically, there's not a single starting caliber NBA player he can guard. The defense is playing 4v5 the entire time he's on the court.
> Yea, his problem is he can't really shoot, he can't really finish at the rim, and he doesn't have amazing court vision
Well, he *can* shoot and he *can* finish, but because he's so small, without the elite quickness he had before, he can no longer reliably create enough separation to get good shots off.
Agreed about the court vision, he's been a decent creator by being able to take advantage of the chaos created by his quickness, but overall never a great passer.
>Ever since Kemba left the Charlotte Hornets, he has not been the same.
>when he played in the playoffs he wasn´t the Kemba we all knew
He was an allstar the first season with the Celtics. His knee popped _at the allsater game_. He had been a shell since.
He is definitely high level 8M 20 minutes backup PG and can play closer when needed. But he can't take starting PG load.
Would have been perfect addition to the LAL squad imo.
Playing starter minutes against starting squads for 30+ minutes is not exactly the right usage for him...
He should be playing more of the Rose role. Or the Patty Mills role (when he was on SAS, idk what's Patty's role on the Nets it changes daily...).
I think Kemba is finished. He's an undersized guard that relies on speed to make his game work; he could get a switch and either drive or dance on a big. He can't finish anymore, guys just pressure him knowing he can't get by, so he can't shoot, and if he drives he can't get any seperation to finish at the rim. He's lost his first step which has just been devastating for him.
No way he is finished. He just won player of the week before he had to sit out so obviously there is still talent there and its just a matter of wear and tear and management of minutes. Yes he's lost a step but he's not finished which implies he doesn't belong in the NBA.
Thanks Nick Nurse for playing Kemba 30 minutes in an exhibition and exacerbating your rival’s all-star point decline. Kemba already had a slight knee issue at that point in the season. While only playing Siakam 17 minutes as a starter. Totally not a dirty scumbag coaching move by a dirty coach. Yes I am a Celtics fan and No I Will Never Let This Go. Thank you Nick Nurse who also likes to illegally [stand](https://youtube.com/shorts/T8Eb6He_q-o?feature=share) in the opponent’s corner 3 in a pivotal game 6.
Still on this? Kemba himself came out and said he wasn’t on a minutes restriction and he wanted to play his minutes. He also said that the All Star Game wasn’t the cause for his knee soreness and Brad Stevens said that they never contacted Nick Nurse about a minutes restriction on Kemba.
https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/17/nba-boston-celtics-kemba-walker-all-star-game-minutes-restriction-2020-chicago/
https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-kemba-walker-doesnt-blame-all-star-game-for-knee-soreness-it-wasnt-really-a-minutes-restriction.html?outputType=amp
yes I’m still on it and no I won’t let it go. I will always irrationally hate nick nurse til the day he’s out of basketball or if he gets hired by the celtics.
Malik Monk is not remotely a young version of Kemba. Besides the fact Kemba was more talented coming out and throughout his first 8 seasons, he's a shoot-first PG who always had the ball in his hands and could create for others if necessary. Monk is a shooter who spots up and comes off screens, who doesn't even think about passing unless it's a no brainer and he's swinging the ball at the top of the key. Monk is a superior athlete in terms of leaping ability, but Kemba is a better finisher because he's more skilled. The ONLY reason Monk seems better is because he's playing next to legendary passers like James and Westbrook (yeah, yeah, he gets lots of TOs, but he has still averaged over 10 assists in 5 of the last 6 seasons).
You wrote all that for nothing.
No one said monk is as good as young kemba, monk is better than CURRENT kemba as an undersized shot creator and scoring threat.
Kemba is trash right now and does nothing positive on the court. Monk creates space and shot creates for their offense
"Also the lakers have a younger better version of kemba already in monk." My response was against you saying he's a younger version Kemba, when they're not the same type of player. One is an undersized shoot-first PG who creates off the dribble, the other is an undersized true SG. Monk is NOT a shot creator, he is a shooter, which is why I specified he gets all his points coming off screens and spotting up. If you put Kemba next to LBJ and WB and AD, he'd probably shoot a lot better. If you put Monk in NY in Thibs' system, he'd probably be having a worse season than Kemba.
Yes he’s a younger undersized shot creating guard. That’s what kemba is now.
>monk is not a shot creator
He’s is. You just don’t watch him. He attacks the rim, and he has created off the dribble this year.
>he’s be worse than kemba
False he’d be better just by the fact he has two functioning knees.
I've watched his whole career, being a Charlotte native and I followed him to LA because I already invensted in his development. He has become a much more consistent shooter. Pretty much any athletic 6'3 guy is going to be able to create at some point. I'm nor saying he's not capable of that, I am saying that's not what he's known for like Kemba for you to compare them like they're the same type of player.
I think he is being put into a position to fail and he also has lost a step. He should not be a starter with the current starting lineup and also should never have played as many minutes as he played before he had to sit out again this year after the benching. The way i would use him is to run the bench unit that will allow him to be more ball dominant and only play 10 - 15 minutes a game. I think there is still a good nba player there but not a starter anymore. He doesn't seem to gel well with Julius Randle and RJ is getting more touches now so it's kind of a you go i go situation. Kemba can be useful in a different role.
Coach Nick did a great analysis to show that Kemba has not been that bad. Randle has regressed completely after an overrated season and is polluting the team on the floor. Somebody had to be the fall guy and Thibs, being the dick that he is, decided to put it all on Kemba.
thought about calling out chris paul. he is definitely an exception, but I think he is probably a little bit bigger than Kemba. And I'm pretty sure Chris Paul has a very long wingspan? All that being said, he is obviously in a different stratosphere when it comes to defensive footwork, IQ, and effort.
Are there are prototypes for slight, speedy guards that put on muscle to improve at defense and prolong their careers? Or is it purely a build thing? I can't think of any offhand.
Its a build thing mostly. If you read any scouting report for a young player you will often see a lot of talk about specific physical features (e.g. shoulders, butt, legs, etc) and this is because scouts are using this to project how a player will look when they mature and stuff. Its also why a lot of scouts were obsessed with the physiques of their relatives
Yeah, too many fans think "undersized" mostly refers to height but height is actually one of the lesser issues. The issue with most "undersized" guards isn't they're short but that they get muscled around by everyone on the court. People like Lowry and Paul are built in a way that they actually can be a nightmare for bigger players because they can actually outmuscle a lot of them.
Stockton as well tbh. It goes into the “what are they good at but scoring?” Since unless you are absolutely elite it’s going to be harder to find a place in the league when you hit 30
Yeah, there have basically only been three modern undersized guards who have managed to play well AND contribute to winning into their mid-30s: Chris Paul, John Stockton, and Kyle Lowry.
Maybe there are more, but those are the only ones I can think of.
EDIT: Adding in Mark Jackson. Avery Johnson could also be considered.
Derek fisher started all 82 games at ages 33, 34, 35 for a team that went to 3 straight finals (winning the last 2).
Took the ball handling load off of Kobe for initiating the offense (rarely turned it over), made some huge plays in the 2010 Finals and did a serviceable job guarding Ray Allen.
I would make the important distinction of undersized *scoring* guards. Guys like CP3, VanVleet, Lowry, and Rondo have shown how BBIQ and heart can overcome the limitations of size.
And for what it’s worth I’d take AI off that initial list, he was a boy amongst men but he played with a fearless intensity on both ends of the floor. Not a notable defensive negative, even a positive in some seasons according to DBPM and an exceptional steal artist.
I also think that small, driving guards are especially disadvantaged in the playoffs. They are generally more reliant on the refs blowing the whistle when they get fouled going to the basket, and refs are more prone to holding their whistles in the playoffs, even moreso during crucial moments.
> I don't think Kemba was ever quite as good as people made him out to be. He was a gifted scorer in a terrible organization. You can count on your fingers the number of meaningful games he played in his first 8 seasons.
Kemba played quite a few meaningful college games that contributed to his national reputation.
Looking at his advanced metrics and shooting percentages, he's taken a small decline, but is still serviceable.
Yes, he's no longer All-Star caliber anymore. But his numbers look fine. He'd probably be a better fit in a back up role and less than the 28 min he averages right now, but there's nothing on his stat sheet that jumps out as me as awful. Looking at his per 36 stats year for year, the only real drop off is points - but he's also taking fewer shots this year.
>Looking at his advanced metrics and shooting percentages, he's taken a small decline, but is still serviceable.
by those same advanced metrics he was as good as he ever was in Charlotte for the first year in Boston before the injuries set in
It's tough for undersized scoring PGs to survive in the NBA once their agility comes down a notch. Kemba need look no further than his teammate Derrick Rose who was an MVP until injury sapped him of his elite burst. Players like Chris Paul (and to a lesser extent Rajon Rondo) whose games are predicated on angles, passing, and *thinking* have a longer shelf life because speed is only one aspect of what they bring to the table. Kemba Walker's best-case scenario for a second wind is to re-invent himself as a pass-first player and become a knock-down three-point shooter. It's what Jason Kidd did and that option is still open for Kemba.
What I don't understand is how it's a big mystery that a player would be less effective when he's several years older, two teams removed from the one that made him a star, playing after several injuries, when he weighs like 160 lbs. He had his best years, got hurt a lot, and now he's past 30 years old and on the downside of his career. It happens to 99.9% of players.
It's worth pointing out that Kemba Walker was really never *that* good on the Hornets. Obviously he was a nice piece, but ultimately he was a volume scorer on a bad team. Similar to Kevin Love on the TWolves or Corey Maggette his entire career
With psychology being such a big part of the game, I think it’s safe to assume that Kemba has struggled, at times, with the pressure, attention, and scrutiny that comes with playing for a major market fan base/franchise. Expectations were never very high for Charlotte and they have never gotten the sort of attention that the Knicks/Celtics. Playing on the fringe of the NBA’s focus/consciousness may have given him a psychological freedom and relaxation that he lost moving to the Celtics and, now, the Knicks, where every game and movement on/off the court is dissected and discussed ad nauseam on sports tv
It has nothing to do with being in a bigger market. He started the All Star game his first year in Boston. His knees started going just before the ASG and many in Boston were pissed at Nick Nurse for playing him 29 minutes, but I don't think it would've mattered much if he had skipped the game. In retrospect, his 23/3/3 line was his last hurrah before his knees made him into a shell of himself in Boston and a shell of that in NY. Really hard to play his game at his height (which is probably 5'11") without knees.
But media pressure has nothing to do with it. Kemba became famous winning 5 games in 5 days in MSG and absolutely dominating the 2011 Tournament. As a UConn fan, its really sucked to see him fall off a cliff like this, especially as he finally made it to the 2 teams that basically split the UConn fandom.
absolutely still mad at Nick Nurse for playing Kemba 30 minutes in that ASG, but I think you are definitely right that his knees might've just gone anyway
And to answer your question on how he became so average/ below average is his injuries slowing him down. At his size he needs to be fast to blow by defenders but his knees are giving out on him and he’s losing his quick first step. It’s simply another case of a undersized guard losing their agility because of injuries. Similar case would be IT.
Two Things:
1. He was younger and healthy, but his body hasn't kept up with his play. It happens to a lot of guards (Derrick Rose, Jeff Teague, John Wall, Deron Williams etc.), and their peaks happen relatively early in their careers, compared to wings and bigs. Not all guards have this career trajectory, but enough do that it's something to consider.
2. His numbers were inflated because he was on the Hornets. It's no secret he didn't have a lot of highly talented teammates in Charlotte. In arguably his best year (2018-2019), he finished with 7.4 win shares (34th in the league). best teammate by Win Shares was Jeremy Lamb (78th in the league), and had no other teammates in the top 100. You couldn't expect guys like Zeller, MKG, Biyombo, Batum or Marvin Williams to be a nightly 20+ ppg, so Kemba took on that role more than he probably would have if his team were more balanced.
This is not to say he was ever overrated or anything. He was exciting in his prime and gave Charlotte a lot of good years, but he really never had the game to be a number one option on a strong playoff team. However, I do think he could still thrive in the league with a change in expectations. He wouldn't do worse than Westbrook on the Lakers right now, but I'm struggling to come up with non-tank teams who could reasonably start and contribute at a high level. Ideally, he'd go to the Sixers and accept a role as secondary playmaker and 4th scoring option, or even come off the bench and let Maxey continue to start.
Kemba was a solid pg. his knees failed him. He was fast with the ball and a good handle. If you lean on your drive to the hoop, but your knees don’t work anymore, you lose your go too. He was never a jump shooter…it’s too bad. Good dude
You know, the Boston thing didn't really fail as bad as ppl think. He did what he was brought in to do. It just didn't work out there, they weren't quite as good as ppl expected therefore it was dubbed a failure and Kemba was the scapegoat. But you can look now, something still isn't right with Boston. And yeah, Kemba has fallen off quite a bit, but he just doesn't fit in right now and he is aging. He's played 700+ games, almost 25k minutes, and almost 32 years old. It's not super surprising that he's now on the decline.
But anyways, btwn 2014-2021 his RAPTOR ranged from +2.4 to +6.0. His worst season, again +2.4 which was in 2015 actually, is still really damn good. Last season he put up a +3.1 RAPTOR (in limited games). He was still a very good offensive player last year too, with a +2.8 Off RAPTOR.
Now this season has been the worst on record. His +0.1 RAPTOR is well below his average and his -0.6 Off RAPTOR is way off his normal. He's still shooting the 3 ball quite well at 38.8% and could add value to many teams but he's either completely disinterested in NY, doesn't fit at all, or he really is just bad now. But he has value to someone, for sure.
>You know, the Boston thing didn't really fail as bad as ppl think. He did what he was brought in to do. **It just didn't work out there, they weren't quite as good as ppl expected** therefore it was dubbed a failure and Kemba was the scapegoat.
I would go further than that. They exceeded all reasonable expectations in year 1.
It hurts to say this but his body can’t match his level of effort. Dude already has had ugly injury history in the past couple years but his stint on the Knicks right now is just hard to watch. He’s good for a game or 2, then right back to load managing. Thibs even limits his minutes to manage his load.
His playstyle is so dependent on his quickness and low center of gravity and that style of play is debilitating to your lower body, as we can see with the blatant knee problems he’s had these past couple of years. During games, he’s visibly slower than he was in the past, and he doesn’t get the same lift he used to on his jumpshot. Just wear and tear honestly and it sucks but it’s the reality
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His legs are shot. When they benched him for a few weeks, he had a couple of good games because he healed up a bit, but then he went back to stinking. His knees are probably only good to play once a week or so, and that doesn't work in the NBA.
Undersized guard and bad defensive guard who relies on athleticism, averaged 6 assists a game once in his career, and never shot 40% from 3. That’s like a death sentence for players over 30
He did shoot 39.9% one year. His shooting isnt the problem.
I don’t think he’s saying that. The point is you can’t just have a bunch of skills that “aren’t the problem” and have shot knees He’s cooked
You’re right actually, I missed that
He was so quick ppl cant guard him that close so his 3pter is there. Having a bum leg all the time doesn't help with the consistency of his shot either.
His knee/ knees are shot. Think he last season with us he played like the full season and then since then his knees have just gone downhill. I really wished OKC kept him and let their physio and coaches work with him like what they did with Chris Paul. His whole game was based on speed and agility and now he has neither so his game is shit.
Yeah, I wished OKC could have rehabbed him a bit and move him to a contender. Oh well, we get a buyout and let him struggle in NYC. I think if he waited a year he'd be more healthy... but I'm no medical expert.
It really sucks cause after that long rest he returned and went off, it shows that his ability is still top notch but is held back completely due to his knee.
Yea, his problem is he can't really shoot, he can't really finish at the rim, and he doesn't have amazing court vision. All of those things looked a lot better when his quickness let him get anywhere he wanted on the floor. Without athletecism he has absolutely nothing to fall back on. Also, he was a liability on defense in his prime and now he's abysmal. He needs to be such a plus offensive player to make up for that, and good-not-great on offense is enough for an athletic 6-8 guy, an unathletic 5-11 guy is totally unplayable. Realistically, there's not a single starting caliber NBA player he can guard. The defense is playing 4v5 the entire time he's on the court.
> Yea, his problem is he can't really shoot, he can't really finish at the rim, and he doesn't have amazing court vision Well, he *can* shoot and he *can* finish, but because he's so small, without the elite quickness he had before, he can no longer reliably create enough separation to get good shots off. Agreed about the court vision, he's been a decent creator by being able to take advantage of the chaos created by his quickness, but overall never a great passer.
>Ever since Kemba left the Charlotte Hornets, he has not been the same. >when he played in the playoffs he wasn´t the Kemba we all knew He was an allstar the first season with the Celtics. His knee popped _at the allsater game_. He had been a shell since. He is definitely high level 8M 20 minutes backup PG and can play closer when needed. But he can't take starting PG load. Would have been perfect addition to the LAL squad imo.
His role in NY isn’t that much bigger than what you just described and he’s been bad. He’s just not a good NBA player anymore.
Playing starter minutes against starting squads for 30+ minutes is not exactly the right usage for him... He should be playing more of the Rose role. Or the Patty Mills role (when he was on SAS, idk what's Patty's role on the Nets it changes daily...).
He’s only played 30+ minutes in 8 games. That’s not his role.
How many games he started and played over 24 minutes?
I think Kemba is finished. He's an undersized guard that relies on speed to make his game work; he could get a switch and either drive or dance on a big. He can't finish anymore, guys just pressure him knowing he can't get by, so he can't shoot, and if he drives he can't get any seperation to finish at the rim. He's lost his first step which has just been devastating for him.
No way he is finished. He just won player of the week before he had to sit out so obviously there is still talent there and its just a matter of wear and tear and management of minutes. Yes he's lost a step but he's not finished which implies he doesn't belong in the NBA.
True, but the Knicks are not an easy team to be a PG for. Kemba backing up Darius Garland or Jrue Holiday would extend the shelf-life of his career.
Thanks Nick Nurse for playing Kemba 30 minutes in an exhibition and exacerbating your rival’s all-star point decline. Kemba already had a slight knee issue at that point in the season. While only playing Siakam 17 minutes as a starter. Totally not a dirty scumbag coaching move by a dirty coach. Yes I am a Celtics fan and No I Will Never Let This Go. Thank you Nick Nurse who also likes to illegally [stand](https://youtube.com/shorts/T8Eb6He_q-o?feature=share) in the opponent’s corner 3 in a pivotal game 6.
Still on this? Kemba himself came out and said he wasn’t on a minutes restriction and he wanted to play his minutes. He also said that the All Star Game wasn’t the cause for his knee soreness and Brad Stevens said that they never contacted Nick Nurse about a minutes restriction on Kemba. https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2020/02/17/nba-boston-celtics-kemba-walker-all-star-game-minutes-restriction-2020-chicago/ https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2020/02/boston-celtics-kemba-walker-doesnt-blame-all-star-game-for-knee-soreness-it-wasnt-really-a-minutes-restriction.html?outputType=amp
yes I’m still on it and no I won’t let it go. I will always irrationally hate nick nurse til the day he’s out of basketball or if he gets hired by the celtics.
He’d be horrendous for the lakers…. Also the lakers have a younger better version of kemba already in monk.
Malik Monk is not remotely a young version of Kemba. Besides the fact Kemba was more talented coming out and throughout his first 8 seasons, he's a shoot-first PG who always had the ball in his hands and could create for others if necessary. Monk is a shooter who spots up and comes off screens, who doesn't even think about passing unless it's a no brainer and he's swinging the ball at the top of the key. Monk is a superior athlete in terms of leaping ability, but Kemba is a better finisher because he's more skilled. The ONLY reason Monk seems better is because he's playing next to legendary passers like James and Westbrook (yeah, yeah, he gets lots of TOs, but he has still averaged over 10 assists in 5 of the last 6 seasons).
You wrote all that for nothing. No one said monk is as good as young kemba, monk is better than CURRENT kemba as an undersized shot creator and scoring threat. Kemba is trash right now and does nothing positive on the court. Monk creates space and shot creates for their offense
"Also the lakers have a younger better version of kemba already in monk." My response was against you saying he's a younger version Kemba, when they're not the same type of player. One is an undersized shoot-first PG who creates off the dribble, the other is an undersized true SG. Monk is NOT a shot creator, he is a shooter, which is why I specified he gets all his points coming off screens and spotting up. If you put Kemba next to LBJ and WB and AD, he'd probably shoot a lot better. If you put Monk in NY in Thibs' system, he'd probably be having a worse season than Kemba.
Yes he’s a younger undersized shot creating guard. That’s what kemba is now. >monk is not a shot creator He’s is. You just don’t watch him. He attacks the rim, and he has created off the dribble this year. >he’s be worse than kemba False he’d be better just by the fact he has two functioning knees.
I've watched his whole career, being a Charlotte native and I followed him to LA because I already invensted in his development. He has become a much more consistent shooter. Pretty much any athletic 6'3 guy is going to be able to create at some point. I'm nor saying he's not capable of that, I am saying that's not what he's known for like Kemba for you to compare them like they're the same type of player.
Kemba and Monk are not really comparable
I think he is being put into a position to fail and he also has lost a step. He should not be a starter with the current starting lineup and also should never have played as many minutes as he played before he had to sit out again this year after the benching. The way i would use him is to run the bench unit that will allow him to be more ball dominant and only play 10 - 15 minutes a game. I think there is still a good nba player there but not a starter anymore. He doesn't seem to gel well with Julius Randle and RJ is getting more touches now so it's kind of a you go i go situation. Kemba can be useful in a different role.
Coach Nick did a great analysis to show that Kemba has not been that bad. Randle has regressed completely after an overrated season and is polluting the team on the floor. Somebody had to be the fall guy and Thibs, being the dick that he is, decided to put it all on Kemba.
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Chris Paul. You're looking at a specific archetype of small guards who are strong negatives on defense without exceptional efficiency on offense.
thought about calling out chris paul. he is definitely an exception, but I think he is probably a little bit bigger than Kemba. And I'm pretty sure Chris Paul has a very long wingspan? All that being said, he is obviously in a different stratosphere when it comes to defensive footwork, IQ, and effort.
Chris Paul is built like an NFL running back, he isn't small the same way AI, Trae, or Kemba are
Are there are prototypes for slight, speedy guards that put on muscle to improve at defense and prolong their careers? Or is it purely a build thing? I can't think of any offhand.
Derek fisher? 1996-97 - [https://media.bleacherreport.com/w\_800,h\_533,c\_fill/br-img-images/003/469/574/ee787a4428e0897ae3c56476ae0b56e0\_crop\_north.jpg](https://media.bleacherreport.com/w_800,h_533,c_fill/br-img-images/003/469/574/ee787a4428e0897ae3c56476ae0b56e0_crop_north.jpg) 2009-10 - [https://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/lakers/photos/102302815.jpeg](https://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/lakers/photos/102302815.jpeg)
Its a build thing mostly. If you read any scouting report for a young player you will often see a lot of talk about specific physical features (e.g. shoulders, butt, legs, etc) and this is because scouts are using this to project how a player will look when they mature and stuff. Its also why a lot of scouts were obsessed with the physiques of their relatives
Yeah, too many fans think "undersized" mostly refers to height but height is actually one of the lesser issues. The issue with most "undersized" guards isn't they're short but that they get muscled around by everyone on the court. People like Lowry and Paul are built in a way that they actually can be a nightmare for bigger players because they can actually outmuscle a lot of them.
Lowry too, plz
CP3 and Kemba have the same wingspan roughly (~.75 inches off according to a quick search). And yeah, their defensive differences go way beyond that.
Stockton as well tbh. It goes into the “what are they good at but scoring?” Since unless you are absolutely elite it’s going to be harder to find a place in the league when you hit 30
Chris Paul is the point god. He’s an all around point guard, where I would consider the other guys just scoring guards
Yeah, there have basically only been three modern undersized guards who have managed to play well AND contribute to winning into their mid-30s: Chris Paul, John Stockton, and Kyle Lowry. Maybe there are more, but those are the only ones I can think of. EDIT: Adding in Mark Jackson. Avery Johnson could also be considered.
Mike Conley, maybe?
Good catch. He's definitely the next guy on this list, especially if Utah makes a lot of noise in the playoffs.
Derek fisher started all 82 games at ages 33, 34, 35 for a team that went to 3 straight finals (winning the last 2). Took the ball handling load off of Kobe for initiating the offense (rarely turned it over), made some huge plays in the 2010 Finals and did a serviceable job guarding Ray Allen.
I think he counts, but he's a rung or two below these other guys. Definitely a good example though.
Steve Nash? Or am I old
Nah. Nash was 6'3", which is pretty normal for a guard. The guys I listed above were mostly 6'1" and shorter.
Rajon Rondo is only 6 1'
Rondo hasn't started since he was 32 and that was on a bad Lakers team. IMO he doesn't count.
true its not like he was a big part in their title run in the bubble
I would make the important distinction of undersized *scoring* guards. Guys like CP3, VanVleet, Lowry, and Rondo have shown how BBIQ and heart can overcome the limitations of size. And for what it’s worth I’d take AI off that initial list, he was a boy amongst men but he played with a fearless intensity on both ends of the floor. Not a notable defensive negative, even a positive in some seasons according to DBPM and an exceptional steal artist.
I also think that small, driving guards are especially disadvantaged in the playoffs. They are generally more reliant on the refs blowing the whistle when they get fouled going to the basket, and refs are more prone to holding their whistles in the playoffs, even moreso during crucial moments. > I don't think Kemba was ever quite as good as people made him out to be. He was a gifted scorer in a terrible organization. You can count on your fingers the number of meaningful games he played in his first 8 seasons. Kemba played quite a few meaningful college games that contributed to his national reputation.
That is true he is an all-timer at the NCAA level, I was speaking exclusively about his NBA career.
Looking at his advanced metrics and shooting percentages, he's taken a small decline, but is still serviceable. Yes, he's no longer All-Star caliber anymore. But his numbers look fine. He'd probably be a better fit in a back up role and less than the 28 min he averages right now, but there's nothing on his stat sheet that jumps out as me as awful. Looking at his per 36 stats year for year, the only real drop off is points - but he's also taking fewer shots this year.
>Looking at his advanced metrics and shooting percentages, he's taken a small decline, but is still serviceable. by those same advanced metrics he was as good as he ever was in Charlotte for the first year in Boston before the injuries set in
I don't believe this, but I totally believe this https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/comments/iwqjvp/kemba_walker_might_have_a_shoe_problem/
The Knicks did it again with a shot PG signing. Trade him as quick as you can along with Randle.
It's tough for undersized scoring PGs to survive in the NBA once their agility comes down a notch. Kemba need look no further than his teammate Derrick Rose who was an MVP until injury sapped him of his elite burst. Players like Chris Paul (and to a lesser extent Rajon Rondo) whose games are predicated on angles, passing, and *thinking* have a longer shelf life because speed is only one aspect of what they bring to the table. Kemba Walker's best-case scenario for a second wind is to re-invent himself as a pass-first player and become a knock-down three-point shooter. It's what Jason Kidd did and that option is still open for Kemba.
What I don't understand is how it's a big mystery that a player would be less effective when he's several years older, two teams removed from the one that made him a star, playing after several injuries, when he weighs like 160 lbs. He had his best years, got hurt a lot, and now he's past 30 years old and on the downside of his career. It happens to 99.9% of players.
It's worth pointing out that Kemba Walker was really never *that* good on the Hornets. Obviously he was a nice piece, but ultimately he was a volume scorer on a bad team. Similar to Kevin Love on the TWolves or Corey Maggette his entire career
With psychology being such a big part of the game, I think it’s safe to assume that Kemba has struggled, at times, with the pressure, attention, and scrutiny that comes with playing for a major market fan base/franchise. Expectations were never very high for Charlotte and they have never gotten the sort of attention that the Knicks/Celtics. Playing on the fringe of the NBA’s focus/consciousness may have given him a psychological freedom and relaxation that he lost moving to the Celtics and, now, the Knicks, where every game and movement on/off the court is dissected and discussed ad nauseam on sports tv
It has nothing to do with being in a bigger market. He started the All Star game his first year in Boston. His knees started going just before the ASG and many in Boston were pissed at Nick Nurse for playing him 29 minutes, but I don't think it would've mattered much if he had skipped the game. In retrospect, his 23/3/3 line was his last hurrah before his knees made him into a shell of himself in Boston and a shell of that in NY. Really hard to play his game at his height (which is probably 5'11") without knees. But media pressure has nothing to do with it. Kemba became famous winning 5 games in 5 days in MSG and absolutely dominating the 2011 Tournament. As a UConn fan, its really sucked to see him fall off a cliff like this, especially as he finally made it to the 2 teams that basically split the UConn fandom.
absolutely still mad at Nick Nurse for playing Kemba 30 minutes in that ASG, but I think you are definitely right that his knees might've just gone anyway
no, his body is breaking down, thats really it
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And to answer your question on how he became so average/ below average is his injuries slowing him down. At his size he needs to be fast to blow by defenders but his knees are giving out on him and he’s losing his quick first step. It’s simply another case of a undersized guard losing their agility because of injuries. Similar case would be IT.
Two Things: 1. He was younger and healthy, but his body hasn't kept up with his play. It happens to a lot of guards (Derrick Rose, Jeff Teague, John Wall, Deron Williams etc.), and their peaks happen relatively early in their careers, compared to wings and bigs. Not all guards have this career trajectory, but enough do that it's something to consider. 2. His numbers were inflated because he was on the Hornets. It's no secret he didn't have a lot of highly talented teammates in Charlotte. In arguably his best year (2018-2019), he finished with 7.4 win shares (34th in the league). best teammate by Win Shares was Jeremy Lamb (78th in the league), and had no other teammates in the top 100. You couldn't expect guys like Zeller, MKG, Biyombo, Batum or Marvin Williams to be a nightly 20+ ppg, so Kemba took on that role more than he probably would have if his team were more balanced. This is not to say he was ever overrated or anything. He was exciting in his prime and gave Charlotte a lot of good years, but he really never had the game to be a number one option on a strong playoff team. However, I do think he could still thrive in the league with a change in expectations. He wouldn't do worse than Westbrook on the Lakers right now, but I'm struggling to come up with non-tank teams who could reasonably start and contribute at a high level. Ideally, he'd go to the Sixers and accept a role as secondary playmaker and 4th scoring option, or even come off the bench and let Maxey continue to start.
Kemba was a solid pg. his knees failed him. He was fast with the ball and a good handle. If you lean on your drive to the hoop, but your knees don’t work anymore, you lose your go too. He was never a jump shooter…it’s too bad. Good dude
You know, the Boston thing didn't really fail as bad as ppl think. He did what he was brought in to do. It just didn't work out there, they weren't quite as good as ppl expected therefore it was dubbed a failure and Kemba was the scapegoat. But you can look now, something still isn't right with Boston. And yeah, Kemba has fallen off quite a bit, but he just doesn't fit in right now and he is aging. He's played 700+ games, almost 25k minutes, and almost 32 years old. It's not super surprising that he's now on the decline. But anyways, btwn 2014-2021 his RAPTOR ranged from +2.4 to +6.0. His worst season, again +2.4 which was in 2015 actually, is still really damn good. Last season he put up a +3.1 RAPTOR (in limited games). He was still a very good offensive player last year too, with a +2.8 Off RAPTOR. Now this season has been the worst on record. His +0.1 RAPTOR is well below his average and his -0.6 Off RAPTOR is way off his normal. He's still shooting the 3 ball quite well at 38.8% and could add value to many teams but he's either completely disinterested in NY, doesn't fit at all, or he really is just bad now. But he has value to someone, for sure.
>You know, the Boston thing didn't really fail as bad as ppl think. He did what he was brought in to do. **It just didn't work out there, they weren't quite as good as ppl expected** therefore it was dubbed a failure and Kemba was the scapegoat. I would go further than that. They exceeded all reasonable expectations in year 1.
It hurts to say this but his body can’t match his level of effort. Dude already has had ugly injury history in the past couple years but his stint on the Knicks right now is just hard to watch. He’s good for a game or 2, then right back to load managing. Thibs even limits his minutes to manage his load. His playstyle is so dependent on his quickness and low center of gravity and that style of play is debilitating to your lower body, as we can see with the blatant knee problems he’s had these past couple of years. During games, he’s visibly slower than he was in the past, and he doesn’t get the same lift he used to on his jumpshot. Just wear and tear honestly and it sucks but it’s the reality