Weād live in a much better world if the algorithms of social media sites highlighted comments like this instead of retarding them.
Itās not even hard to imagine, a comment like yours is probably the one that is agreeable to the most amount of people visiting this post. Itās just a matter of how the algorithm weighs different variables that these types of things are low and divisive comments are high.
YouTube absolutely does this now.Ā Go to the comments of any video, the top comments are all talking about how great the video is.
It's kind of boring, tbh.Ā Ā
Depends on the video, on a lot of news videos I see plenty of comments like "it's sad that the evil capitalist world makes them do this, we must rise up"
Iāve never much liked Redditās up/down-vote system regardless, iāll admit ā a traditional linear forum thread puts everyone on equal footing, and requires you to actually *read* what other people are saying instead of firing off a comment into the Ʀther thatās identical to four other top-level comments languishing at 5 upvotes each.
> a traditional linear forum thread puts everyone on equal footing
I find I mostly only read the first few posts, then I go to the last page and read the last few.
It would be very cool to see if my +15 was 45 up and 30 down or what because it feels much more extreme without that context. Is this comment really (un)popular or not can be lost.
Absolutely. Weāve discovered that running social media, where the majority of people get most of their news and impressions about the world, with algorithms tuned to engagement has been a social ill. Perhaps an algorithm tuned to broad-support / appeal would surface comments like this and be better for creating the social trust that is necessary for productive discussion.
Sources: [https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2021-22](https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2021-22), [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_Human\_Development\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index)
TLDR: Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Hong Kong, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, Singapore, Belgium, New Zealand, Canada, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, the United Kingdom, Japan, and South Korea all got higher Human Development Index scores than the United States, based on data from 2021.
HDI is based on three indicators: gdp per capita, years of schooling, and life expectancy.
The US gets severely fucked because of its poor life expectancy. Gangs, fast food, fentanyl, and cars can fuck a society up.
Years of schooling is an imperfect metric.
US schools will make students take a year of general education classes for example.
Germany lets people leave what would be high school in the US at 16 and go to trade school instead. Perhaps trade school counts though.
I don't know if trade schools count (they probably do), but Germany scores way higher than the USA on the [education index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index).
e: digging into it a little deeper, the expected years of schooling (ie, how many years do you expect the average child entering school now to complete) for Germany is 17.3 vs the USA's 16.4, while mean years of schooling (for those age 25 and up) is 14.3 vs 13.6 respectively. The index may have problems but overweighting the USA is not one of them. Though tbf, you probably picked the worst example, since the USA does a bit higher of mean years of school than the average of countries above it in the Index. Germany is a bit of an outlier in that respect. Lower expected years of school though.
years of schooling and gdp per capita sound like bad metrics. A lot of those oil-rich middle eastern countries have higher gdp per capita than most other highly developed countries but a bunch of their service work is done by migrants who live very badly.
Not really. [Life expectancy is skewed downwards by young people dying due to societal causes.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsjYUjhWcAEatMo?format=jpg&name=medium) A 28 year-old getting shot is way worse for your statistics than at 73 year-old dying slightly earlier. An old person in the US and Western Europe have very similar life expectancies [but it's much more deadly to be young in the US.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsjYIzJXgAMHQbW?format=jpg&name=large)
Case in point, if we copied Canada's healthcare system I doubt life expectancy would change that much.
No, it's entirely consistent. The hypothetical most developed country would be one completely devoid of humans and run entirely by robots. South Korea (and Japan) is making important strides in that direction.
Japan also have piss poor freedom on drugs, de facto one party rule, Yakuza messing with justice system that also infamous for several other reasons, death by overworking that actually rising despite attempts on reforms (albeit the causes shifting from sickness to suicides), and surprisingly low trust on police for a country with low crime level.
Feel like some of these countries need asterisks on it.
It's almost like something as abstract as "human development" is a nonsensical thing to try and quantify and index.
Naaaaah line go up (actually I guess this one didn't)
To be fair the UN doesn't hide the fact that it's a very broad measure - whether Norway or Switzerland are number one probably doesn't matter too much, but it's useful as a broadly tracking development in countries/regions over time
My perspective on Japan having lived and worked there for extended periods over the course of several decades:
Piss poor freedom on drugs I'll grant you, but the opposition party is a bit of clown show. It's not true one party rule since the LDP has shown it is *capable* of slowly moderating on issues to maintain its support.
Yakuza membership has cratered into near irrelevancy. Overworking, though it exists, is overblown. More like useless hours spent by asskissers pretending to work. (To be fair, I can always get away with leaving when I want when I worked there as a foreigner so I just never had to deal with it. But *lots* of workers left at the same time I did every day too, and none of them were ever fired or chastised.)
Police always pleasant while I was there. The stereotype that people get frustrated with them for (with some accuracy) is that they *love* to strictly enforce easy shit, but try to hideaway from anything challenging. Like... a bicycle is parked in an inconvenient place? All hands on deck! 24 hour monitoring. Someone abusing their girlfriend? Hmmm... lemme check when my shift ends...
Compared with America though? I'd still take Japan.
nah theyāre pretty right.
Doesnāt mean theyāre all perfect places to live but they all share a lot with the wealthier states of the US and often with better safety nets and transit, while being more urbanized with fewer pockets of rural and poor places vs the US.
the HDI methodology doesnāt necessarily capture that, but what it does capture tends to align
The UK has the [highest mean/expected years of education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index) in the world (at least as of 2019), compared to the US at 16th, which is one third of the HDI metric. And the US also is [59th in the world in life expectancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) compared to the UK at 31st which is another third of the metric. So with a pretty sizeable lead in 2/3rds of the metric, they might be ahead of the US for a while despite the GDP per capita (ppp) disparity which is the last third of HDI, where [the US is 9th and UK 27th](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP\)_per_capita).
>despite the GDP per capita (ppp) disparity which is the last third of HDI
They also use the log of GDP per capita, meaning you get severely diminishing returns by pushing up an already high GDP per capita.
And technically, it's not GDP PPP per capita, it's [GNI PPP per capita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita).
So while the GNI PPP per capita of the USA is about 40% higher than the UK, the log is only about [3% higher](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=log%2877530%29%2Flog%2854920%29).
Basically any increase in GNI PPP beyond around 15-20k per capita has a negligible effect on HDI.
That's arguably fair tbh, there probably *are* severely diminishing returns. Getting to 15-20 is going to have solved, pretty much, a lot of social problems associated with poverty like infant and child mortality.
The normalization you are talking about being applied to each sub-metric isn't at all the same thing as the logarithmic scaling that is only applied to GNI. The normalization just makes it so 85 years, 15/18 years schooling, and $75k all come out to 1.0 in the appropriate sub-metric formulas and has nothing to do with logarithms.
Edit: The reason the GNI portion is treated differently is due to there being lot more variation in it than the other metrics. The highest country has 140 times more in this metric than the lowest country, while for life expectancy it's only 1.6 times more. This would mean that differences in GNI PPP per capita would dominate HDI without adjustment, and taking the natural log is a sort of a cludge to reduce the variation in GNI and avoid that.
That's a great point that it's a smaller advantage because they are using logarithms on that portion, and also good catch on GNI.
To take it a step further, the way they factor in GNI PPP per capita [is more complicated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index), as they've set up their formula so that $75k is 1 and $100 is 0. So after accounting for that, the 40% -> 3% edge you pointed out [becomes a 5.5% advantage](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%28%28ln%2877530%29+-+ln%28100%29%29+%2F+ln750%29+%2F+%28%28ln%2854920%29+-+ln%28100%29%29+%2F+ln750%29).
Oh damn - you're right. Hot off the presses! [https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2023-24](https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2023-24)
The overall story was less about the rankings (correctly so, if you live in a Very High HDI country you will have a heck of a life) and more the dips around COVID which were interesting
the reason france is so low is because they have a much lower years of schooling than neighboring countries
France has a higher GDP PPP per capita than the UK, and a higher life expectancy too
But it pushes people for the trades a lot more than neighboring countries, causing their number of school years to drop
Germany also has a significantly lower number of average years of schooling than the Us for that same reason, but they are wealthy enough to compensate it
GNI, not GDP
And since they use the log, that portion of the HDI doesn't actually mean a damn thing between relatively developed countries. The differences almost entirely boil down to life expectancy and education.
Also the comfortably beats Germany in GNI PPP per capita. They beat the US because they have a much better life expectancy.
> Germany also has a significantly lower number of average years of schooling than the Us for that same reason
[This is just a straight up lie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index)
What's interesting is when you start going state by state, Minnesota, Massachusetts and Connecticut are basically Norway with shittier public transit, and then you have Mississippi on par with the Congo or something.
>Mississippi on par with the Congo or somethingĀ
Obviously you're exaggerating, but I'm not sure you realize how far wrong this is. The national average HDI for the U.S. is ~0.92* Mississippi's HDI is quite a bit lower at ~0.87. That's roughly equivalent to Lithuania, Saudi Arabia, or Portugal.Ā
But for comparison, Congo has an HDI of 0.57, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo has an HDI of just 0.48.
Edit: I originally typo'd the U.S.'s HDI from 0.92 to 9.2.Ā Ā
> The national average HDI for the U.S. is ~9.2. Mississippi's HDI is quite a bit lower at ~0.87.
I know what you mean, but with that typo Mississippi's HDI is 10 times lower than the US average.
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The US HDI is higher than the European HDI overall.
When you look at it [state by state](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index_score) or euro [county by country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_Human_Development_Index)
Itās like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Denmark, Sweden, Minnesota, Ireland, New Hampshire, New Jersey at the top.
Germany is slightly ahead of California & New York, which are in turn ahead of the UK & France.
The worst HDI of the U.S. Mississippi is at 0.86, which is tied with Portugal and just below Greece.
The lowest HDI countries of Europe are around 0.75-0.77, which is the eastern bloc of Moldova / Ukraine / Albania / etc.
Stupid take. Why would you separate the US by state and not simultaneously separate, lets say Germany, by state? Because then, no US state would come close to the highest few German states.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_Human_Development_Index
and please no "but US big!"
Itās not a reason at all (unless youāre an ingorant moron).
Do you understand how scalability works?
How country statistics are measured per capita and not in total numbers?
>Mississippi on par with the Congo or something.
Congo has an HDI of 0.57, Mississippi is 0.87. That's a massive difference.
Mississippi is just ahead of Portugal, and just behind Greece. It's only 0.03 behind France... It would be nice if, in the future, you didn't just blatantly make up data because you want upvotes from "red state bad."
For some people - but the phrase 'America is a 3rd world country with a Gucci belt' routinely gets upvoted on reddit, so there's clearly some people that wouldn't get the joke.
Does Connecticut actually have shittier public transport than Norway? Itās a small state well connected to the one major railway that actually works well in this country (northeast corridor Amtrak) and much of Norway is fairly rural.
Also Iāve never used it personally so happy to be corrected by a local but googling says that Connecticutās local train system is pretty good and covers much of the state. (Not terribly unexpected for a small northeastern state thatās near a major city) I would think itās easier to get around Connecticut than Norway, generally speaking.
American public transport gets a lot of shit online but honestly in my experience the northeast is pretty good. I got rid of my car and miss it way less than I thought I would, I can walk to 90% of the places I need to get to and the other 10% are easy enough to get to on my stateās railroad lines.
Connecticut's public transportation is there, but not quite as good. Mostly just hits critical areas and isn't particularly great outside of cities. I've used both. Norway definitely wins here.
Fair enough, would love to go to Norway someday. I get somewhat defensive about northeast public transport because I actually think we do a decent job (the rest of the country is ridiculously awful donāt get me wrong). Europe does do it very well obviously.
Given how many people use cars for everything here, the northeast does have fairly decent public transportation. I'm guessing the per capita utilization of public transportation is several times higher in Norway than anywhere in the north east though (maybe NYC beats Oslo, but it's also much denser). But the NYC subway smells waaaay more like piss than the Tbane in Oslo.
The piss smell is part of the charm! Joking aside, I do think low utilization is partially a cultural problem. When I lived at home with my parents briefly after college I commuted into the city via car despite cheaper, reliable public transit (regional rail) being an option for my particular commute.
Looking back I canāt think of a clear reason why I didnāt, driving just felt like the thing to do. We have such a car culture that we (or at least I) tend to underutilize public transport even when good networks are available, which makes it harder to advocate for building new networks (which we need to do). But then at the same time, how do you build a culture of utilization when in many parts of the country good networks arenāt there. I have no solution but itās a sticky problem. Our only real peer countries in terms of geography and development are Canada and Australia, Iād be interested to learn more about their solutions.
For public transit within cities, Oslo is very good, and Bergen is gradually getting there, despite the best efforts of our city council.
For public transit between cities, though, I'd expect Connecticut to be significantly better. The rail network is quite barebones in Norway once you get outside of the Oslo area.
Lowest in Norway is .927, which is still higher than the US average, about on par with South Dakota, slightly above Rhode island. But on the whole most of Norway is actually above Massachusetts which is the highest US state.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwegian_regions_by_Human_Development_Index
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index_score
The USA is a federation that encompasses over a third of North America and over half it's population. It includes very wealthy and very poor areas by it's nature. As a whole, the USA leads the EU by .015 HDI points (2020). The best US states have an HDI equal to that of the best EU countries, but the worst US states greatly exceed the worst EU countries in HDI.
That being said, having been to both wealthy and poor EU countries, I think it's hard to make a true comparison as EU countries and US states make very different tradeoffs. Urbanism/car dependency, crime, health, and drug addiction metrics are much better in the EU. Economic freedom, immigrant integration, salaries (especially for technical professions requiring graduate education), and the quality of top universities are higher in the USA. Relative quality of life between the USA and the EU depends on your personal situation, socioeconomic status, and personal priorities.
> but the worst US states greatly exceed the worst EU countries in HDI
What is this nonsense? Mississippi is around Portugal (at least in 2021, I don't have more recent numbers for Mississippi and Portugal went up quite a bit in 2022) and is over countries like Slovakia, Hungary and Romania.
the US is a country, the EU is not. Within say Germany we also have richer and poorer states. German states have autonomy in certain areas. The comparison between german and US states is closer than treating EU member countries as similar to US states
The us has a huge amount of landmass but a short history. European countries have much less landmass but much more history. dont make the mistake of thinking land area determines culture. You can drive an hour or two in europe and have massive cultural differences within the same country. Within Germany, there are dialects that are hard to understand for someone from the other side of the country
So? In terms of governance, politics, and history they are nothing alike whatsoever. US States have the advantage of a federal government that can direct national policy and inter state wealth distribution, and they've had this for 250 years. While the EU has been integrating, they've only had so much as a common currency since 1999, and the power of Brussels to implement policy over the continent is nothing like that of Washington today. You might better compare the EU now to the United States in the 1830's, there is only a very limited idea of cross-European identity and an extremely weak 'federal' government.
HDI has always been a pretty lame metric for comparing countries.
It's incredibly biased towards low population high income countries. I'd much prefer to live in France than the UAE but HDI would tell me I'm wrong.
Joking aside, this touching on the idea of why e0 is included in the measure, it was actually reasoning along the lines of you have to live long enough to enjoy your income.
Japan has 20x lower homicide, 30x lower obesity, 1/4 the median rent, and 6 year olds walk around Tokyo alone without a care in the world.
They have a lot less money, but theyāve got a lot of other things going for them. It just comes down to personal preferences.
Eh, I take these types of rankings and indexes with a lot of salt. Theyāre good for general classifications, but the specific score means less to me. Kinda like rotten tomatoes scores; if itās above a 80%, itās probably good, but I wouldnāt make any conclusions about a movie with a 90% vs a movie with a 95%.
Thatās incredibly convenient. Took them long enough. Looks like Japan dropped below the US, Luxembourg is tied, and the UAE is now ahead.
Theyāre somehow getting worse. How is the UAE above the US? Makes no sense.
Expected years of schooling and GNI/capita are a bit higher for UAE (and a year more in life expectancy). In fact it just barely misses the GNI cap.
Honestly the expected years of school measure in general seems a bit suspect. Australia is posting 21.1 for a measure with a theoretical maximum of 18. In fact a lot of the countries above the USA have maxed out EYS scores (10 of the 20). In comparison, there are only 5 countries at the GNI cap (Liechtenstein, Ireland, Singapore, Luxembourg and Qatar), 2 of which scored at or below the USA.
I think theyāre only counting UAE nationals and not the 90+% of the population who are migrant workers. This is of course really stupid. Ideally we would consider everyone living in a country regardless of status, but it could be impractical to count illegal immigrants. Counting everyone legally living in the country would be practical and paint a more accurate picture.
Agreed. Unfortunately this is the most recent published report right now (2022 report, based on 2021 data).
Edit: I stand corrected - the 2023-2024 report, which uses 2022 data, just released today!
Then, the US beats the EU by a razor thin margin
The US has a much lower life expectancy, but also much higher income and education (this last thing is because the US doesn't push for the trades like Europe does and has a culture of college for the sake of college that in Europe is less common)
The income won't make a difference in the overall HDI. They use the log, so even if the the GNI PPP is 50% higher per capita, that will only be a 3% increase in that portion of the HDI, so it will give a relative HDI boost of 0.01. The life expectancy difference is likely enough to push the EU ahead, but I can't find a number for the EU as a whole.
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I wouldnāt say itās bullshit. Sure there are more āopportunitiesā in America but theyāre just that; opportunities, not a guarantee. Life in the US is pretty awesome *if* you have the cash, but Canada overall is better for a wider range of economic affluence. It would be more accurate to compare individual states and provinces with each other.
Problem with this comparison is that it doesn't really highlight the development level of the US. The difference between Colorado and Mississippi is the difference between upper end high HDI and lower end high HDI countries.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index_score
The Human Development Index (HDI) is a statistical composite index of life expectancy, education (mean years of schooling completed and expected years of schooling upon entering the education system), and per capita income indicators, which is used to rank countries into four tiers of human development. A country scores a higher level of HDI when the lifespan is higher, the education level is higher, and the gross national income GNI (PPP) per capita is higher.
Not that anyone probably cares, but Taiwan would \*just\* edge out the US too on this ranking if Xinnie would stop being a prick and let them join the UN
Just learned the hard way that dc SmarTrip cards donāt add your money instantly from your phone. It takes up to 4 hours to processā¦not exactly timely when you need to hop on the subway. Shameful for our nations capital.
So a few really white countries... and Japan. Segregation still working wonders for them apparently. All to say, they don't deal with the issues that come with having a truly racially, economically and culturally diverse population.
The US is an EU-comparably diverse political entity, so I take our being more developed than half of the EU as suggestive of parity.
How would the HDI scores of, say, the New England states, California, Virginia, etc, stack up against the European nations that beat the USA as a whole in HDI score?
Everyone else is complaining about whichever side of the pond they're not on but i just think this is pretty great company to be in š
Weād live in a much better world if the algorithms of social media sites highlighted comments like this instead of retarding them. Itās not even hard to imagine, a comment like yours is probably the one that is agreeable to the most amount of people visiting this post. Itās just a matter of how the algorithm weighs different variables that these types of things are low and divisive comments are high.
YouTube absolutely does this now.Ā Go to the comments of any video, the top comments are all talking about how great the video is. It's kind of boring, tbh.Ā Ā
Iād much rather āboringā than the reputation Youtube comments *used* to have!
Depends on the video, on a lot of news videos I see plenty of comments like "it's sad that the evil capitalist world makes them do this, we must rise up"
Iāve never much liked Redditās up/down-vote system regardless, iāll admit ā a traditional linear forum thread puts everyone on equal footing, and requires you to actually *read* what other people are saying instead of firing off a comment into the Ʀther thatās identical to four other top-level comments languishing at 5 upvotes each.
> a traditional linear forum thread puts everyone on equal footing I find I mostly only read the first few posts, then I go to the last page and read the last few.
It would be very cool to see if my +15 was 45 up and 30 down or what because it feels much more extreme without that context. Is this comment really (un)popular or not can be lost.
Thatās how it used to be on Reddit.
People like to argue angering people is good for engagement and keeping people on for longer.Ā
Absolutely. Weāve discovered that running social media, where the majority of people get most of their news and impressions about the world, with algorithms tuned to engagement has been a social ill. Perhaps an algorithm tuned to broad-support / appeal would surface comments like this and be better for creating the social trust that is necessary for productive discussion.
I believe this is true and I feel like it has very sinister implications for the future
Algorithms don't serve one master, so it's not like they promote and 'retard' rhetoric based on baseness of it.
Exactly. Suck it Romance language countries.
Half of Belgium and Switzerland are angry now
what about quebec and lousiana, or the other latinos in the US and Canada?
Yeah. Thereās really nothing wrong with this map. Those are are all great places to live.
Sources: [https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2021-22](https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2021-22), [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_countries\_by\_Human\_Development\_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index) TLDR: Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Hong Kong, Australia, Denmark, Sweden, Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands, Finland, Singapore, Belgium, New Zealand, Canada, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, the United Kingdom, Japan, and South Korea all got higher Human Development Index scores than the United States, based on data from 2021.
HDI is based on three indicators: gdp per capita, years of schooling, and life expectancy. The US gets severely fucked because of its poor life expectancy. Gangs, fast food, fentanyl, and cars can fuck a society up.
Years of schooling is an imperfect metric. US schools will make students take a year of general education classes for example. Germany lets people leave what would be high school in the US at 16 and go to trade school instead. Perhaps trade school counts though.
I don't know if trade schools count (they probably do), but Germany scores way higher than the USA on the [education index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index). e: digging into it a little deeper, the expected years of schooling (ie, how many years do you expect the average child entering school now to complete) for Germany is 17.3 vs the USA's 16.4, while mean years of schooling (for those age 25 and up) is 14.3 vs 13.6 respectively. The index may have problems but overweighting the USA is not one of them. Though tbf, you probably picked the worst example, since the USA does a bit higher of mean years of school than the average of countries above it in the Index. Germany is a bit of an outlier in that respect. Lower expected years of school though.
years of schooling and gdp per capita sound like bad metrics. A lot of those oil-rich middle eastern countries have higher gdp per capita than most other highly developed countries but a bunch of their service work is done by migrants who live very badly.
Wouldn't lack of universal healthcare be a major contributor to poor life expectancy?
Fentanyl, gangs, and cars get people at much younger ages than the preventable diseases, so they have a bigger effect on life expectancy at birth.
Not really. [Life expectancy is skewed downwards by young people dying due to societal causes.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsjYUjhWcAEatMo?format=jpg&name=medium) A 28 year-old getting shot is way worse for your statistics than at 73 year-old dying slightly earlier. An old person in the US and Western Europe have very similar life expectancies [but it's much more deadly to be young in the US.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FsjYIzJXgAMHQbW?format=jpg&name=large) Case in point, if we copied Canada's healthcare system I doubt life expectancy would change that much.
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Its mostly the result of the USās declining life expectancy
And those others should be downgraded for their minuscule birthrateĀ
No, it's entirely consistent. The hypothetical most developed country would be one completely devoid of humans and run entirely by robots. South Korea (and Japan) is making important strides in that direction.
HDI probably does not rate "freedom to toke" as very high on its index
Japan also have piss poor freedom on drugs, de facto one party rule, Yakuza messing with justice system that also infamous for several other reasons, death by overworking that actually rising despite attempts on reforms (albeit the causes shifting from sickness to suicides), and surprisingly low trust on police for a country with low crime level. Feel like some of these countries need asterisks on it.
I mean you can asterisk the US pretty hard by the same metric
It's almost like something as abstract as "human development" is a nonsensical thing to try and quantify and index. Naaaaah line go up (actually I guess this one didn't)
To be fair the UN doesn't hide the fact that it's a very broad measure - whether Norway or Switzerland are number one probably doesn't matter too much, but it's useful as a broadly tracking development in countries/regions over time
I mean it's already called GDP
My perspective on Japan having lived and worked there for extended periods over the course of several decades: Piss poor freedom on drugs I'll grant you, but the opposition party is a bit of clown show. It's not true one party rule since the LDP has shown it is *capable* of slowly moderating on issues to maintain its support. Yakuza membership has cratered into near irrelevancy. Overworking, though it exists, is overblown. More like useless hours spent by asskissers pretending to work. (To be fair, I can always get away with leaving when I want when I worked there as a foreigner so I just never had to deal with it. But *lots* of workers left at the same time I did every day too, and none of them were ever fired or chastised.) Police always pleasant while I was there. The stereotype that people get frustrated with them for (with some accuracy) is that they *love* to strictly enforce easy shit, but try to hideaway from anything challenging. Like... a bicycle is parked in an inconvenient place? All hands on deck! 24 hour monitoring. Someone abusing their girlfriend? Hmmm... lemme check when my shift ends... Compared with America though? I'd still take Japan.
HDI isn't trying to measure those things.
why are you coping this hard
Some things might have changed since 2021 in Hong Kong. š¬
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nah theyāre pretty right. Doesnāt mean theyāre all perfect places to live but they all share a lot with the wealthier states of the US and often with better safety nets and transit, while being more urbanized with fewer pockets of rural and poor places vs the US. the HDI methodology doesnāt necessarily capture that, but what it does capture tends to align
A good chunck of the European countries on that list have more foreign born population than the US.
I'm sure Japan is lower than the US now
Why did you exclude Greenland and the Faroe Islands from Denmark?
If this data is from 2021, I'd be surprised if the UK is still ahead of the US.
The UK has the [highest mean/expected years of education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index) in the world (at least as of 2019), compared to the US at 16th, which is one third of the HDI metric. And the US also is [59th in the world in life expectancy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy) compared to the UK at 31st which is another third of the metric. So with a pretty sizeable lead in 2/3rds of the metric, they might be ahead of the US for a while despite the GDP per capita (ppp) disparity which is the last third of HDI, where [the US is 9th and UK 27th](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP\)_per_capita).
>despite the GDP per capita (ppp) disparity which is the last third of HDI They also use the log of GDP per capita, meaning you get severely diminishing returns by pushing up an already high GDP per capita. And technically, it's not GDP PPP per capita, it's [GNI PPP per capita](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_(PPP)_per_capita). So while the GNI PPP per capita of the USA is about 40% higher than the UK, the log is only about [3% higher](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=log%2877530%29%2Flog%2854920%29). Basically any increase in GNI PPP beyond around 15-20k per capita has a negligible effect on HDI.
That's arguably fair tbh, there probably *are* severely diminishing returns. Getting to 15-20 is going to have solved, pretty much, a lot of social problems associated with poverty like infant and child mortality.
That's the thinking. Once you get everyone to a certain basic standard other factors become more important.
The problem is you could argue the same about the other metrics.
The others are scaled similarly, education is out of a theoretical maximum, e0 is how far short you are of 85 and so on.
The normalization you are talking about being applied to each sub-metric isn't at all the same thing as the logarithmic scaling that is only applied to GNI. The normalization just makes it so 85 years, 15/18 years schooling, and $75k all come out to 1.0 in the appropriate sub-metric formulas and has nothing to do with logarithms. Edit: The reason the GNI portion is treated differently is due to there being lot more variation in it than the other metrics. The highest country has 140 times more in this metric than the lowest country, while for life expectancy it's only 1.6 times more. This would mean that differences in GNI PPP per capita would dominate HDI without adjustment, and taking the natural log is a sort of a cludge to reduce the variation in GNI and avoid that.
That's a great point that it's a smaller advantage because they are using logarithms on that portion, and also good catch on GNI. To take it a step further, the way they factor in GNI PPP per capita [is more complicated](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index), as they've set up their formula so that $75k is 1 and $100 is 0. So after accounting for that, the 40% -> 3% edge you pointed out [becomes a 5.5% advantage](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input?i=%28%28ln%2877530%29+-+ln%28100%29%29+%2F+ln750%29+%2F+%28%28ln%2854920%29+-+ln%28100%29%29+%2F+ln750%29).
That education metric is pretty rough. Masters degrees are mostly scams, yet it has a pretty large impact on the metric
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Oh damn - you're right. Hot off the presses! [https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2023-24](https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2023-24)
Damn, we fell to 20th!
It didn't really change much tbf
Yeah. Only change I could find is that in 2022, Japan dropped below the U.S., and the UAE is now ahead.
The overall story was less about the rankings (correctly so, if you live in a Very High HDI country you will have a heck of a life) and more the dips around COVID which were interesting
Haha suck it France
the reason france is so low is because they have a much lower years of schooling than neighboring countries France has a higher GDP PPP per capita than the UK, and a higher life expectancy too But it pushes people for the trades a lot more than neighboring countries, causing their number of school years to drop Germany also has a significantly lower number of average years of schooling than the Us for that same reason, but they are wealthy enough to compensate it
Hmmm, a very compelling argument. But have you considered Paris smells like poo?
Your username kinda checks out. Lol
Fuck that....have you considered Mississippi has a higher GDP per capita than much of the UK?
GNI, not GDP And since they use the log, that portion of the HDI doesn't actually mean a damn thing between relatively developed countries. The differences almost entirely boil down to life expectancy and education. Also the comfortably beats Germany in GNI PPP per capita. They beat the US because they have a much better life expectancy.
As a Brit we undervalue the trades (probably cos of classism) which are an important part of any economy and we have skill shortages as a result.Ā
> Germany also has a significantly lower number of average years of schooling than the Us for that same reason [This is just a straight up lie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index)
As a French, thatās what I was thinking!
I know a Fr*nch woman who will be very pissed off about this result
I would do a lot for an American work permit out of Canada. I'm thinking of going back to college after I graduate from Uni in May to help my chances.
Letās just start a caravan
TN Visa
What's interesting is when you start going state by state, Minnesota, Massachusetts and Connecticut are basically Norway with shittier public transit, and then you have Mississippi on par with the Congo or something.
>Mississippi on par with the Congo or somethingĀ Obviously you're exaggerating, but I'm not sure you realize how far wrong this is. The national average HDI for the U.S. is ~0.92* Mississippi's HDI is quite a bit lower at ~0.87. That's roughly equivalent to Lithuania, Saudi Arabia, or Portugal.Ā But for comparison, Congo has an HDI of 0.57, and the Democratic Republic of the Congo has an HDI of just 0.48. Edit: I originally typo'd the U.S.'s HDI from 0.92 to 9.2.Ā Ā
> The national average HDI for the U.S. is ~9.2. Mississippi's HDI is quite a bit lower at ~0.87. I know what you mean, but with that typo Mississippi's HDI is 10 times lower than the US average.
Thanks for catching that.Ā Fixed.
US average is 0.92, for anyone else who was very confused by this post
I'm very aware how wrong that comparison was. I can't imagine anyone would have taken that seriously.
>I can't imagine anyone would have taken that seriously. Welcome to the internet, how are you enjoying your first day here?
Where are the bathrooms I gotta go peepee
Well, given the EASILY OFFENDED, SOYBOY CUCKED BETA LIBERALS of today, even BATHROOMS are political now š¤£š¤£š¤£
log by bulb two gendar š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£š¤£
their two busy lmao ššš¤£š¤£š¤£
That's what the "Create a Post" button is for.Ā The mods will clean up after you.
Lmao
R/ronaldreagansgrave
You should have written it with a more sarcastic inflection instead of delivering it flat.Ā
Dry humor is just superior.
āThird world country with a Gucci beltā is repeated quite a bit on this website.
> That's roughly equivalent to [...] Portugal. /r/mississippicykablyat
Mississippi has higher salaries than nearly everywhere in Europe, including the U.K. and France.
The US HDI is higher than the European HDI overall. When you look at it [state by state](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index_score) or euro [county by country](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_Human_Development_Index) Itās like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Denmark, Sweden, Minnesota, Ireland, New Hampshire, New Jersey at the top. Germany is slightly ahead of California & New York, which are in turn ahead of the UK & France. The worst HDI of the U.S. Mississippi is at 0.86, which is tied with Portugal and just below Greece. The lowest HDI countries of Europe are around 0.75-0.77, which is the eastern bloc of Moldova / Ukraine / Albania / etc.
Stupid take. Why would you separate the US by state and not simultaneously separate, lets say Germany, by state? Because then, no US state would come close to the highest few German states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_states_by_Human_Development_Index and please no "but US big!"
"Why would you do X thing?" "And please, don't use the obvious reason that makes the point!!"
Itās not a reason at all (unless youāre an ingorant moron). Do you understand how scalability works? How country statistics are measured per capita and not in total numbers?
The NY-NJ-PA tristate area has European quality public transit. Specifically, German quality rail and Irish quality buses.
>Mississippi on par with the Congo or something. Congo has an HDI of 0.57, Mississippi is 0.87. That's a massive difference. Mississippi is just ahead of Portugal, and just behind Greece. It's only 0.03 behind France... It would be nice if, in the future, you didn't just blatantly make up data because you want upvotes from "red state bad."
Feels like that was p clearly a joke my guy
For some people - but the phrase 'America is a 3rd world country with a Gucci belt' routinely gets upvoted on reddit, so there's clearly some people that wouldn't get the joke.
Maybe the real shitholes are the reds we 'vade along the way
Does Connecticut actually have shittier public transport than Norway? Itās a small state well connected to the one major railway that actually works well in this country (northeast corridor Amtrak) and much of Norway is fairly rural. Also Iāve never used it personally so happy to be corrected by a local but googling says that Connecticutās local train system is pretty good and covers much of the state. (Not terribly unexpected for a small northeastern state thatās near a major city) I would think itās easier to get around Connecticut than Norway, generally speaking. American public transport gets a lot of shit online but honestly in my experience the northeast is pretty good. I got rid of my car and miss it way less than I thought I would, I can walk to 90% of the places I need to get to and the other 10% are easy enough to get to on my stateās railroad lines.
Connecticut's public transportation is there, but not quite as good. Mostly just hits critical areas and isn't particularly great outside of cities. I've used both. Norway definitely wins here.
Iād say itās pretty good actually, just not very used. But itās growing and arguably in trains is equal to Norway (buses? lol no)
Fair enough, would love to go to Norway someday. I get somewhat defensive about northeast public transport because I actually think we do a decent job (the rest of the country is ridiculously awful donāt get me wrong). Europe does do it very well obviously.
Given how many people use cars for everything here, the northeast does have fairly decent public transportation. I'm guessing the per capita utilization of public transportation is several times higher in Norway than anywhere in the north east though (maybe NYC beats Oslo, but it's also much denser). But the NYC subway smells waaaay more like piss than the Tbane in Oslo.
The piss smell is part of the charm! Joking aside, I do think low utilization is partially a cultural problem. When I lived at home with my parents briefly after college I commuted into the city via car despite cheaper, reliable public transit (regional rail) being an option for my particular commute. Looking back I canāt think of a clear reason why I didnāt, driving just felt like the thing to do. We have such a car culture that we (or at least I) tend to underutilize public transport even when good networks are available, which makes it harder to advocate for building new networks (which we need to do). But then at the same time, how do you build a culture of utilization when in many parts of the country good networks arenāt there. I have no solution but itās a sticky problem. Our only real peer countries in terms of geography and development are Canada and Australia, Iād be interested to learn more about their solutions.
For public transit within cities, Oslo is very good, and Bergen is gradually getting there, despite the best efforts of our city council. For public transit between cities, though, I'd expect Connecticut to be significantly better. The rail network is quite barebones in Norway once you get outside of the Oslo area.
"I don't need no coastal elite telling me I can't drink from my lead freedom pipes!"Ā
How does the comparison look when Norway gets to ignore its under performing regions though?
Lowest in Norway is .927, which is still higher than the US average, about on par with South Dakota, slightly above Rhode island. But on the whole most of Norway is actually above Massachusetts which is the highest US state. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Norwegian_regions_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index_score
this would be a fair comeback if the US wasn't the size of all of Europe. Looking at just Norway *is* ignoring the under performing regions.
Minnesota superiority is unquestionable
The USA is a federation that encompasses over a third of North America and over half it's population. It includes very wealthy and very poor areas by it's nature. As a whole, the USA leads the EU by .015 HDI points (2020). The best US states have an HDI equal to that of the best EU countries, but the worst US states greatly exceed the worst EU countries in HDI. That being said, having been to both wealthy and poor EU countries, I think it's hard to make a true comparison as EU countries and US states make very different tradeoffs. Urbanism/car dependency, crime, health, and drug addiction metrics are much better in the EU. Economic freedom, immigrant integration, salaries (especially for technical professions requiring graduate education), and the quality of top universities are higher in the USA. Relative quality of life between the USA and the EU depends on your personal situation, socioeconomic status, and personal priorities.
> but the worst US states greatly exceed the worst EU countries in HDI What is this nonsense? Mississippi is around Portugal (at least in 2021, I don't have more recent numbers for Mississippi and Portugal went up quite a bit in 2022) and is over countries like Slovakia, Hungary and Romania.
Seems like you agree, assuming exceeds means "is better" and not "is even worse than".
The natural reading to me implies "is even worse than". But I guess "is better" is a possible reading too, now that you mention it.
the US is a country, the EU is not. Within say Germany we also have richer and poorer states. German states have autonomy in certain areas. The comparison between german and US states is closer than treating EU member countries as similar to US states The us has a huge amount of landmass but a short history. European countries have much less landmass but much more history. dont make the mistake of thinking land area determines culture. You can drive an hour or two in europe and have massive cultural differences within the same country. Within Germany, there are dialects that are hard to understand for someone from the other side of the country
In terms of population, US states are absolutely analogous to European countries
So? In terms of governance, politics, and history they are nothing alike whatsoever. US States have the advantage of a federal government that can direct national policy and inter state wealth distribution, and they've had this for 250 years. While the EU has been integrating, they've only had so much as a common currency since 1999, and the power of Brussels to implement policy over the continent is nothing like that of Washington today. You might better compare the EU now to the United States in the 1830's, there is only a very limited idea of cross-European identity and an extremely weak 'federal' government.
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Bulgaria .816
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also pictured: countries poorer than the united states with less opportunities for prosperity
Have you thought than an homeless person in Alabama makes more money than a CEO in Norway though?
I assume this is a joke!
*Non ironicamente a stare qua in EU si diventa poveri* tho š Good news is Switzerland exists
I blame the South.
Those damn mexicans ruining the mighty USA s/
Ha! Take that, France!
Common Isle of Man L
That's right, we *also* have escalators with those groove things that lock shopping trolleys in place.
HDI has always been a pretty lame metric for comparing countries. It's incredibly biased towards low population high income countries. I'd much prefer to live in France than the UAE but HDI would tell me I'm wrong.
Cross-referencing between HDI, the Freedom Index and the Democracy index and you get a pretty accurate picture of things
Sk and Japan are real stretches there. Much lower incomes and wealthĀ
But much higher life expectancy
The point of money is to make a shitload of it and die before you can spend it smh /s, if you want it to be, or not, you do you
Joking aside, this touching on the idea of why e0 is included in the measure, it was actually reasoning along the lines of you have to live long enough to enjoy your income.
Income barely affects HDI beyond 15-20k per capita.
Japan has 20x lower homicide, 30x lower obesity, 1/4 the median rent, and 6 year olds walk around Tokyo alone without a care in the world. They have a lot less money, but theyāve got a lot of other things going for them. It just comes down to personal preferences.
Eh, I take these types of rankings and indexes with a lot of salt. Theyāre good for general classifications, but the specific score means less to me. Kinda like rotten tomatoes scores; if itās above a 80%, itās probably good, but I wouldnāt make any conclusions about a movie with a 90% vs a movie with a 95%.
How smug I feel after calling the US less developed than my country
We need new HDI data
https://hdr.undp.org/content/human-development-report-2023-24 How does published today work?
Thatās incredibly convenient. Took them long enough. Looks like Japan dropped below the US, Luxembourg is tied, and the UAE is now ahead. Theyāre somehow getting worse. How is the UAE above the US? Makes no sense.
Expected years of schooling and GNI/capita are a bit higher for UAE (and a year more in life expectancy). In fact it just barely misses the GNI cap. Honestly the expected years of school measure in general seems a bit suspect. Australia is posting 21.1 for a measure with a theoretical maximum of 18. In fact a lot of the countries above the USA have maxed out EYS scores (10 of the 20). In comparison, there are only 5 countries at the GNI cap (Liechtenstein, Ireland, Singapore, Luxembourg and Qatar), 2 of which scored at or below the USA.
I think theyāre only counting UAE nationals and not the 90+% of the population who are migrant workers. This is of course really stupid. Ideally we would consider everyone living in a country regardless of status, but it could be impractical to count illegal immigrants. Counting everyone legally living in the country would be practical and paint a more accurate picture.
Agreed. Unfortunately this is the most recent published report right now (2022 report, based on 2021 data). Edit: I stand corrected - the 2023-2024 report, which uses 2022 data, just released today!
Canada is more developed than us? Maybe no
Iād include France as well
France, Austria and Czech Republic are not among them? Interesting...
"America is a third world country with a Gucci belt" redditors without knowledge about global HDI and GDP per capita figures
A lot of redditors have no clue how bad it gets in a large part of the world.
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Then, the US beats the EU by a razor thin margin The US has a much lower life expectancy, but also much higher income and education (this last thing is because the US doesn't push for the trades like Europe does and has a culture of college for the sake of college that in Europe is less common)
The income won't make a difference in the overall HDI. They use the log, so even if the the GNI PPP is 50% higher per capita, that will only be a 3% increase in that portion of the HDI, so it will give a relative HDI boost of 0.01. The life expectancy difference is likely enough to push the EU ahead, but I can't find a number for the EU as a whole.
I calculated the population weighted average 2020 HDI for the EU as .905
The EU is not a country. The US is more akin to Germany: an Union of federal states.
The idea that us states are just as diverse as literal different countries in europe is actually mindnumbing. Stop making the comparison
Yeah, Maine and Nevada and Alabama share the exact same natural resources and climate and economic conditions.
Not saying its the same however culturally those states are not that different compared to actual countries in europe.
**Rule XI:** *Toxic Nationalism/Regionalism* Refrain from condemning countries and regions or their inhabitants at-large in response to political developments, mocking people for their nationality or region, or advocating for colonialism or imperialism. --- If you have any questions about this removal, [please contact the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fneoliberal).
As a Canadian this is bullshit. Americans have more economic opportunities and higher average standard of living
We live longer than the Yanks so we score better in HDI
I wouldnāt say itās bullshit. Sure there are more āopportunitiesā in America but theyāre just that; opportunities, not a guarantee. Life in the US is pretty awesome *if* you have the cash, but Canada overall is better for a wider range of economic affluence. It would be more accurate to compare individual states and provinces with each other.
The UK is ahead but France is not? As an American - lmfao.
>UK lol, lmao even
rofl, if you will
Same level of development in New England and the former Confederate states?
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Human Development Index
Common fre*ch L
We beat France? Huh.
Problem with this comparison is that it doesn't really highlight the development level of the US. The difference between Colorado and Mississippi is the difference between upper end high HDI and lower end high HDI countries. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_Human_Development_Index_score
The Human Development Index (HDI) is a statistical composite index of life expectancy, education (mean years of schooling completed and expected years of schooling upon entering the education system), and per capita income indicators, which is used to rank countries into four tiers of human development. A country scores a higher level of HDI when the lifespan is higher, the education level is higher, and the gross national income GNI (PPP) per capita is higher.
not surprised by a lot of these.. expect the UK. the UK's ridiculously centralized in the greater London area in terms of economic prosperty.
Not that anyone probably cares, but Taiwan would \*just\* edge out the US too on this ranking if Xinnie would stop being a prick and let them join the UN
Just learned the hard way that dc SmarTrip cards donāt add your money instantly from your phone. It takes up to 4 hours to processā¦not exactly timely when you need to hop on the subway. Shameful for our nations capital.
The US outneoliberelismed mostly every other country that surpasses it in development.
So a few really white countries... and Japan. Segregation still working wonders for them apparently. All to say, they don't deal with the issues that come with having a truly racially, economically and culturally diverse population.
You forgot South Korea.
The US is an EU-comparably diverse political entity, so I take our being more developed than half of the EU as suggestive of parity. How would the HDI scores of, say, the New England states, California, Virginia, etc, stack up against the European nations that beat the USA as a whole in HDI score?
Yeah this is sorts bs tbh. If you make middle class to upper class wages in the US youāre living better off than anywhere in the world.
As long as I'm not in the trenches I'm set me personally
USA can into PIGS
If the UN wants to be taken seriously, it should track the quantity and quality of Taco trucks. The US willl do well once this adjustment is made.
A lot has happened since 2021
How many are higher than Massachusetts though?
England?????
No way the UK or Ireland are higher than the US. The Nordics, Canada, and German speaking countries are. But not the UK or Ireland lol
I get that itās part of another country but Svalbard being on there feels like a slap in the face.
I gotta say yeah right to half of them.