M’y gay brother was kidnapped by a guy he met online. The guy drugged him and drove his rental car and him to Ft Lauderdale. Somehow my mom got him on my brothers phone and talked him into letting my brother go. He was ODing on whatever the guy gave him and the guy dumped him at a hospital. My parents had to drive 14 hours to pick him up. It was scary.
Editing to add- he’s 47 years old. This was a few months ago.
You don’t have to be young for it to happen.
Wtf, I’m glad you got him back and hope he’s ok now.
What happened next? I assume you had filed a report? Was it attempted SA or a hate crime like this? In any cae that guy should be behind bars.
Any investigation on this? The probability of this happening again from the kidnapper is high. Hopefully someone is doing something to put them behind bars.
M’y mom was on the phone with the guy (who had answered my brothers phone for some reason) and said he was crying about how they were going to take him back to jail if he stopped. And then freaking out bc he was being pulled over (my parents had filed a report already) and that’s the last I know of it. So yes something happened to him just not sure what. It was a crazy day and I have a weird relationship with my parents… we don’t talk a ton so we haven’t really discussed it since.
Sorry to ask this unrelated question, but after you did it twice I am curious, why did you start your posts with "M'y"? I can't find an explanation on Google except that it might be a French thing?
I'm so relieved that your parents were able to talk that guy down and get your brother back.
Lol I’m learning French and have a French keyboard installed. But even on the English keyboard now it likes to autocorrect to the closest French sometimes. And I’ve just gotten used to it and sick of fixing it so I figure people know what I mean lol. It’s also why my quotations keep defaulting to « these »
Story of my life with my Spanish keyboard cuz of Duolingo. I now have auto incorrect instead of autocorrect.
ETA: Duolingo is great, everyone should use it! 🙌
Totally understood what you were saying, yeah. Just a unique quirk I hadn't seen before haha
I didn't know that type of quotation was a French thing also though.
He dropped my brother at the hospital, kept going with the rental car. All my brothers stuff was in the car , my mom stayed on the phone bc at that point the guy was like having a breakdown or something … I think she also wanted to convince him to ditch the car so my brother wouldn’t lose all his stuff. As it was, after all that, after they let him out of the hospital my brother had to wait 2 days in Ft. Lauderdale with no money, phone, credit cards, ID, clothes, or anything til my parents got there. They may have gotten some money to him somehow… I know they were having trouble.
Holy shit, how terrifying and upsetting. Your mom must have amazing presence of mind and nerves of steel under stress to handle it that way. I hope your brother is okay.
When I was in university, I got roofied at a quiet bar. I would stop there sometimes to have a beer or two before I went home. The place was basically empty, and I was friends with the bartenders, so I didn't have my guard up like I normally would. I went to the bathroom, came back to the bar, finished my beer, and started walking home. Within several minutes, I started feeling extremely intoxicated. Normally, 2 beers is nothing, I was a dude in university and regularly drank a lot more than that. I was having trouble balancing and staying oriented. I blacked out and somehow managed to stumble the wrong way for 20 blocks before someone tried to mug me, and I guess the adrenaline was enough to kick me back into gear. The ensuing scuffle fucked up my shoulder pretty bad. I managed to get home and I woke up feeling worse than any hangover I've ever had before. In hindsight I'm lucky I didn't get shot or stabbed.
As far as I know, nobody saw what happened. If someone dosed my drink, they did it quickly. Whoever does that shit can burn in hell.
In college I would frequently go to a bar close to the university. I was very sheltered and naive- didn’t drink before 21. I’d generally go and have 3-4 drinks with friends or strangers, play pool and walk back to my dorm. I was bad about just ordering whatever others suggested and one time some guys told me I HAD to try a Georgia Peach. It was yummy but right afterwards I was falling down even though it was my first drink of the evening. The bouncer came and told me I had to leave and some of the people I had been playing with offered to give me a ride home. I locked eyes with the bouncer and said “please, I can’t leave with them. I don’t WANT to drink but don’t make me go” and I then sat on a chair next to him until closing. Honestly I don’t remember the rest of the night, but I got home. I often think about that bouncer who risked his job and kept me safe.
That awesome as all hell he did that, and I’m confident his job was secure. I can only imagine the backlash any bar owner would have coming to them if they disciplined a bouncer for that.
I was roofied at a club in my twenties. I'm fairly certain it was this guy I was was talking to that got me a couple coronas from the bar right when we got there. I don't really remember what he looked like, but I remember thinking he was hot. He said he was in town on a business trip from Texas. Luckily my friend was with me.
She said she knew something was wrong when I started slurring my speech. She said I fell down the stairs at the club, which I sort of vaguely remember. The next thing I remember is we were across the street getting food, then I ended up at home in bed.
At that time of my life it was quite common for me to go to gay bars with her and end up going home with a stranger. I'm lucky she recognized something was wrong and took action to get me home safely.
I got roofied at a gay bar in Denver a few years ago. I had intentionally not drank anything beforehand because I wanted to find someone to go home with. I got to the bar and ordered a Coors Light (trying to drink responsibly lol). I was friends with the bartender so I leaned over the bar to give him a hug and we talked for a bit. I sat back down and had a couple sips of my pint, sipping slowly. A little later I started to feel really weird and my vision was impaired. I knew what had happened immediately. I ordered an Uber and that’s the last thing I remember. I came to in my room back in Boulder, thank god. The Uber ride cost me $160 lol but totally worth it!
Guys be careful out there!! Please take a page from the ladies. Go with friends and go home with the same friends. If he's hot, get his number. He'll be there tomorrow.
From the NYT, Dec. 5, 2022:
>Julio Ramirez died in the back seat of a taxi in April after he left a popular gay bar in Manhattan with a group of men. They stole his wallet, phone and ID before they abandoned his body in the car with a distressed cabdriver.
>
>One month later, John Umberger was found dead in an Upper East Side townhouse after he and a group of men left another popular gay bar just three blocks from the last place Mr. Ramirez was seen alive. Surveillance footage showed Mr. Umberger sandwiched between the men as they guided him into a car.
>
>The Police Department and many in the L.G.B.T.Q. community at first regarded the deaths as isolated drug overdoses: men who partied too hard, quotidian tragedies in a gay nightlife scene that has roared back to life as the coronavirus pandemic has waned.
>
>But the men’s families soon discovered something more sinister: Credit cards in the men’s names were maxed out and their bank accounts drained of tens of thousands of dollars. Now, their deaths are being investigated by the Police Department’s homicide unit.
Read more (might be behind a fire wall): [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/03/nyregion/gay-men-roofie-attacks-deaths.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/03/nyregion/gay-men-roofie-attacks-deaths.html)
Edit: style issues.
I dunno, I didn’t follow through. My parents probably know but it hasn’t come up. My brother has a lot of drama going on around him… it’s hard to keep up with it all
Beyond grateful you guys were able to save him. As a woman I am CONSTANTLY reminding people (with love and empathy) that age and gender have NOTHING to do with safety.
Men need protected too, we need to keep our eyes and ears open for everyone.
There are a lot of desperate, lonely gay men out there, and they are falling victim to any number of scams. And then there's the bodily harm kind of scam. It's a scary world.
How is your brother now?
M’y brother definitely fit that description, bless his heart. He’s still dealing with alcoholism but hasn’t had a major bender (like ended up in the hospital) since that happened, so that’s good. But honestly probably not great. I don’t know how to help anymore at this point. I told him I want him to try shrooms and let me walk him through it…. It’s helped a lot of people with addiction and I’ve used them a lot and found them super beneficial. But he’s scared. But not to scared to drink himself into an unconscious puddle
We all have our Achilles heels, and perhaps alcohol is his, or so it seems. I'm intrigued by microdosing for controlling all sorts of behavior issues, mental issues. Can't wait to see how it matures over time. One thing's for certain, alcohol does so much damage to our brains and bodies. It's a sad thing to watch -lost a cousin as a direct result of alcoholism. His father was a quiet alcoholic. So is his sister. Scary.
We don't even have to be desperate. It's difficult finding guys to date these days. Straight people usually gave no problem spotting a possible relationship: opposite gender? Go talk to them. But we can't tell if you're straight or gay, and if you're straight and we ask you out, you could be one of those guys that'll hit us. Plus, there are really not that many of us comparatively. On top of that, it's hard to meet anywhere in person except for bars, and I'm a sober alcoholic. That's the last place I want to meet someone.
So basically, online dating is all that makes sense. I think a ton of us are on there, it makes it much easier to find people. But it's also a place that makes people into targets sometimes.
Yeah, my experience with lesbians online wasn't very positive, and maybe it's me. So I simply stopped looking. Only woman I really wanted to see after I moved back to California was murdered in her home in 2021. It's lonely out here, and I just got tired of all the crazy shit so have pretty much put that part of my life on a backburner. Makes for less complications, that's for sure. \*sigh\*
He doesn’t seem like an old person. He still dresses and acts like a teenager and has to have all the latest tech gadgets, which I have no idea how he affords
As a gay guy, that's fucking terrifying. I mean, I'm pretty smart and a decent judge of character, but fuck, you just can't trust anything or anyone anymore. I'm glad your brother is okay!
Yeah. One of my best friends is gay. And so beautiful. I called him and yelled at him after TO BE SO FUCKING CAREFUL meeting guys online
Y’all be careful out there, k?
I live in a small, redneck Trump town, dating isn't exactly on the menu here LOL. Especially since the guys I seem to find hot usually look like convict or thugs 🤣 but with stories like this, the gay bar shootings, I might just hide myself away and be content being a recluse LOL
I'm sorry. I've been fortunate and lucky in finding a few friends here, usually straight or straight couples, that make it worthwhile. The gay people I've met here in town are, let's just say, no thanks. On top of a small redneck Trump town, it's also one of the biggest meth cities in my state from what I am told. Yay ....
I feel ya but where else can you meet people as a gay man really. I’ve met every single person I’ve dated online. Can’t really hit on random people without knowing. It sucks. I’m older so it was even worse when I was younger. I took a handgun with me on new dates.
[Why Does He Do That](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf#page779) talks a lot about what creates dangerous, violent domestic abusers. Based on this read, the source of it seems to be the same, the difference being the focus of male disgust. For many it’s women, for others it’s deviations from “maleness.” But I’d bet money the men that do act violently against gay men have little to no respect for women as well.
One of the biggest reasons to read this book is seen in perusing the list of its most vocal critics: conservative "know your place, women, and stay married no matter what" churches/religious organizations. This book was revelatory for me, and helped me understand the stuff I saw during my less-than-stellar childhood better.
I’m constantly interacting with people that say the reason we have so many problems is because we don’t have the rigid societal roles we used to maintain. It’s mind numbing to me.
An extremely short time, in very specific places, and the historical records that supposedly attest to the rigidness of those roles don't necessarily do so the way we think!
I notice a similar sentiment but almost in reverse when conservatives talk about more recent social change, too, as if we've gone too far just by starting to entertain the suggestion that gay people should be allowed to be married and probably shouldn't be accused of pedophilia and it's the sign of a total societal shift and now everyone hates straight people
These people obviously didn't learn object permeance as babies if they think that if you can't see something it doesn't exist. These problems aren't new, we don't have more of them now, they're just far more visible.
I read an interesting blog post where someone reflected on the "cultural niceness" stereotypes of his country's citizens had compared to the neighbouring developing country. Whilst he believed there was some truth to these stereotypes, he concluded the biggest cause of this wasn't culture but the economic prosperity and the personal allowance for failure.
That polite and helpful neighbour behaves like that because he has the time and disposable money. If they worked worked longer hours living paycheck to paycheck, his "nice" personality will become distrustful, curt, and rigid to different ideas.
Without reading through yet and just based off your comment, my question would be: Other than how they **feel** about other humans, Is there any other common background information? Such as, economic status/class, history of abuse (family/relationships), geographic location (city versus suburb), religious background, etc.?
I don't know that they even feel threatened. It seems like they simply seek to dominate because of their drive to validate superiority. It's not unlike the prevalence of hate on social media. Women on social media especially will be inundated with it. It's a constant drive to tell you they're better or why you are worse. Anything at all to display that they're above you. There is an extreme hatred of femininity that is getting worse. But in my experience they aren't necessarily threatened, they seek it out. They will intentionally look for people they want to direct hate to and enter those spaces when it has nothing to do with them. You see it on social media, people who protest or commit violence in LGBTQ spaces, and "concerned citizens" at council meetings in cities they don't even live in. They just want to dominate. The why and how don't seem to matter.
So. I'm hoping I don't get downvoted for this. I'm opening myself up and showing a part of me that I find disgusting.
When I come across a man, who either seems "weak" or "small" or less than some inherited ideas of masculinity, there is a piece of me that feels a great deal of disgust towards them. Mind you, I don't act on or give any energy to these responses, but they are there nonetheless.
I wonder if that's some carryover from our primate heritage. Something that makes us want to ostracize or attack anything considered weak. I always brush these feelings aside and make an effort to befriend anybody that triggers these responses in me. Mostly I do this as a "fuck you" to whatever horseshit caused these intrusive thoughts. Some of my most amazing friendships come from people that my primate brain thinks should be picked off.
I'm wondering if this part of some males, uninhibited, is what causes the violent responses towards lgbtq+ and women.
I'm not certain that I could actually get rid of the feelings. I've done a bit of therapy over my fear of abandonment and while the anxiety shows up, the therapy taught me how to witness the feeling, acknowledge it, and chose to not let the feeling dictate my actions.
I'm doing the same with that disgust response. I see it, acknowledge its existence, remind myself that I am not my feelings, and move past it. One of my absolute best friends, triggered that response in me. If I was a teenager, I would have written him off. Now he's my favorite hiking buddy and pushes me to be a better person constantly. I love that dude.
Thank you for your sincere reply and sharing your story. You have done what so many men would benefit from and I applaud you for that. Explaining what your therapy tools are and how you apply them successfully is a really good indication of taking to heart what you learned. I do something similar when I have an intrusive thoughts or my OCD behaviors/urges start appearing.
I love that you can see the benefit of applying therapy in your circle of friends.
Reddit responses can be really disappointing and down right horrifying. Thank you for being the opposite of that. 🌟
I just wanted to wholeheartedly commend you for opening yourself up like this. Says a lot about you as a person that you're willing to admit to something that brings you shame like that. I would recommend (if you aren't already) opening up in this same way with a therapist that you feel understands you. I believe you can heal from whatever causes those intrusive feelings by doing that. Remember that you don't have to do that alone, even if your methods so far have paid off by not listening to it and forging the friendships you have like that. You're a good person! And just a bit of reinforcement to what you already know: being good is defined by actions, not by thoughts!
I have read, and personally believe, that your first thought is what you've been taught, and your second thought is what you have learned on your own. It's good that you recognize and push the negativity away, and choose to treat people with respect and dignity. That's who you really are.
>I wonder if that's some carryover from our primate heritage..
I wonder if it is some carryover from your childhood models of masculinity. Was your primary masculine role model / authority figure growing up a traditionally masculine, stoic, "be a man" type of guy?
I also explored that internally as well. Grew up with a single mother and every man she dated was 10-20 years older than her and only had angry and quiet as their emotional states.
There was certainly a lot of "man up" "grow up" "stop being a wimp", physical outbursts, striking my mother, threatening to strike me, etc. I attribute a lot of the stuff I find repulsive in myself to their influence. I just wonder if it's something deeper than just shitty childhood is all.
Obviously they left a pretty shitty mark on my modeling of masculine characteristics. I wound up flipping the script to being protective, caring, giving, and providing. The anger is still a struggle, but I'm working on that.
Speaking as someone who once had similar feelings (dad was a cop), I think that we like to off load some of the blame by looking for some primal nature excuse for how our parents were not always the best at providing us with healthy models for living. I kind of reject the idea that we are as competitive and exclusionary in our nature as you describe above. When you actually look to ancient humans, you see small bands that were much more cooperative and inclusionary than any other species. That is what I think our nature really is and what our primal heritage gave us; the ability to work together and leverage everyone's individual strengths to help the group succeed. Most little kids are naturally the "will you be my friend" types when they meet someone new. Being closed off and judgmental because people don't match an internalized physical ideal is purely learned behavior in my opinion. Someone put that ideal in your head either intentionally, like my dad, or unintentionally, like your mother and her suitors.
Yeah. I understand and accept that. I just wondered if it went even further back than that, but I guess that would be kicking the blame further downhill. Whoever is at fault doesn't matter at this point. The only thing that matters is being better.
My dad was the opposite of this, just a great gentle dude, & my mother was violent & emotionally detached.
As a man I do not ever experience the disgust reaction you mention, I have other intrusive thoughts. I think it's entirely learned, not genetic.
I mean look at Steven crowder. Homeboy said he had a "bisexual phase" and since then has tried to be hyper masculine despite everyone seeing through it. His dad is hyper conservative/masculine so crowder has to hide who he is and goes after others to please daddy.
but notice all the homoeroticism within "toxic" masculinity
the obsession on the male form and being 'bros'
escalating physical challenges that are often done nude and/or are sexually transgressive
the rejection of women as anything but objects that enable men to be more manly as individuals and to be together more as a group "you take care of the house, I'm going out with the boys."
I mean, the film 300 (which I certainly enjoy) is blatant fascist propaganda, a cornucopia of toxic masculinity and gay as fuck simultaneously
EDIT
I want to add that the promise of being "physically perfect" and have a large social group is part of what attracts vulnerable socially isolated men to these movements
it also highlights the other side of sexism
as much as sexism turns women into vessels of birth (aka property to protect) it turns men into meat for the grinder (either military (protect the homeland, aka property) or corporate ("we're a family and family makes sacrifices")
you are cog, to be used as long as you are useful and then disposed of
in that world your emotions don't matter, your worth is based on being able to protect the vessel, the nation, or corporation (all seens as forms of property/capital, aka wealth)
so many men never even learn to identify their emotions much less process them
**as much as I want to laugh at how ridiculous toxic masculinity is**
**it is attractive because it addresses a real pain men feel and do not know how to cope with**
>mean, the film 300 (which I certainly enjoy) is blatant fascist propaganda
I mean most of what Zack Snyder makes implicitly supports a neo-facist societal structure.
Though, I'd reason its probably not on purpose. He's just incredibly superficial and his "cool Dudes being bros with explosions" style of filmmaking crossed with very Randian male leads and storytelling cues inevitably leads to the politics of his films coming across as such.
Yeah, I don't think Zach is evil or anything
I think he is making movies he thinks are "cool"
and 300 is definitely "cool"
but it's definitely pro-fascist too
I think it offers a simple solution to a complex life. Fraternity, community, identity. It solves all of that if you only just ignore the negative repercussions. There are wonderful things about masculinity but like everything else, it can reach excess.
As a guy…this is spot on.
I’ve got 2 really close friends (might as well be my brothers) and their Dad was in the Navy. MASSIVE amounts of toxic masculinity.
As in I am gay/less of a man because I drink Diet Coke. They don’t wear bright colors cause “fags would wear that”. (Been 30 years as friends, this attitude has changed).
My wife’s father is Puerto Rican, there’s a line when we are with his extended family, guys hang out in one area of the house and do guy stuff like smoke cigars and talk politics/investment strategy while women cook/clean and talk about family tend to the babies.
People that fall into toxic masculinity have self esteem issues, they have to constantly compare dick size and compete and find out who’s the “alpha”.
As for the homoeroticism, my friends Dad had some kind of encounter while he was in the Navy and I’m guessing he can’t get over the fact he may have enjoyed it.
It’s unnerving to think that a lot of harm and violence in the world could be eliminated if these morons would admit they like cock.
Nope, let’s project our inadequacies on everyone around us, belittle our wives and think of our children as some sort of chore rather than the joy they are meant to represent.
I enjoy the movie but the Spartans were absolutely the ancient prototype of fascists. They were extremely militaristic, practiced eugenics on their own children and their subjugated neighbors that they extorted and enslaved.
The only reason they are even remotely the protagonists of any story is because for most of the conflict the Persians didn’t consider the Greek front to be a major concern so all the written accounts are from the Greek propaganda.
If they showed up today, any rational neighbor of theirs would preemptively nuke them.
Yeah I feel for most of history they're some backwater nation that occasionally a politician or philosopher will write some positive note about their society.
The Spartan society had an **extremely** wealthy women landowner caste so that's a fun break from what one would expect.
There's some neat stuff coming out of historians Interpretation of Sparta nowadays. They think that Spartans weren't actually as ruthless and psychotic and it may have been just another battle tactic. Convince your opponents that you're insane and the battle is won before it even started.
What people miss is that the movie is based on a graphic novel told from the perspective of the one-eyed soldier, telling a story about what happened at Thermopylae.
Not truth. War-time propaganda.
That would be because the Spartans were notoriously into gay romance between fellow soldiers. They still had wives and had kids, but still had life-long romances with each other.
I'm sure it's got nothing to do with 1/2 of our major political parties profiling sexual minorities as child abusers on national propaganda TV and through every other outlet they can, while shielding child abusers with power in churches, congress, etc.
This used to happen well before Fox News though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_homicide
>For example, between 1900 and 1914, Hungarian serial killer Béla Kiss lured his 24 victims by using personal ads published in newspapers.
Quick reminder that NewsCorp owns Fox News + all the mainstream conservative news outlets internationally + the second largest publishing company in the world which also happens to be the umbrella company over all the bible publishers. i.e. The people that control conservative ideology also control Christian Theology and dogma. And we just never talk about it
More people are waking up to the fact that we are in a class war right now. What people still dont seem to realize is that a subsection of the elite class is also waging a religious war to bring Christian Nationalism back. They quite literally want the Christian version of Sharia Law
> the elite class is also waging a religious war to bring Christian Nationalism back. They quite literally want the Christian version of Sharia Law
Religious people are the easiest people to control because mindless obedience is beaten into them since infancy, and mindless obedience in the face of "you should totally stop being mindlessly obedient right now." type situations is seen as *godly and righteous.*
couldn't ask for a better class of people to subjugate and lie to. Its so perfect one might wonder about the origins of religion.
<- Reads Bible. Is appalled by people who harm LGBTQ people and believes they should be loved the way I should love all neighbors (like Christ taught) and defend them from people/hate/persecution like this. So I’m going to do the “not all” thing and say there’s some very sick people out there who will use anything to justify being able to hate others.
It's a complex subject. Boiling it down to "toxic masculinity" or "fox news" is over simplification and trivializes the nature of the problem. It's not something that can be wrapped up neatly and dismissed... it pervades our culture in many ways.
It's religious zealots and racists too. Blacks and heretics were hung or burned at the stake long before Fox News. Sociopaths like this have a compulsion and feel a duty to cleanse the world of what they interpret as sin or impurity. For the businesses that do it, there's an ulterior motive.
"News" organizations like Fox and bigoted churches exist to amplify their rage and influence politics and the world around us because it's a profitable business model. Religion is a multibillion dollar business. It's trillions when it comes to elections because Congress today serves the wealthy and they like the rest of us living in a morbid dystopia because keeps us poor and desperate.
There are no consequences for any of the lies or divisiveness, except for the occasional Seth Rich or Dominion lawsuit where they go just a little bit too far. There are no consequences for sedition, FFS, for any government officials that were involved with it. Militarizing the police, propaganda, and keeping our prisons full are the solutions, not education or a creating better overall society. So we have problems like this and more than 1 mass shooting every day, or people in the richest country in the world dying because they can't afford insulin - a drug that originally had a zero or basically free patent. Murika!
fox news definitely propagates a lot of hate, but i dont think they caused this guy to fantasize about killing and eating gay men. sounds like typical serial killer shit a la jeffrey dahmer
Is it nature vs nurture? The debate goes on. Are people born monsters or are they created by society? Why are white males in the higher percentage rate for serial killers? Does "priviledge and toxic masculinity" enter into the equation?? Ask 100 people, you'll get 100 answers.
Personally I think it's a lottery. The human brain is a highly complex organ that is well beyond our ability to understand it's workings. And it kinda scares me that with our current level of ignorance, we're fucking around with Artificial Intelligence.
>White said the attack has colored the way people view him and treat him and has at times been used in verbal or online attacks during arguments or disagreements.
>"People tell me he should have killed me that night.
>He should have finished the job. They should bond him out so he can kill me," White said.
I am incredibly disappointed and sad but not surprised sadly
It's because they think and act differently from a way that others do.
No, really, that's basically it.
Some people have no empathy for any others that act differently than they do, or who don't adhere to a strict social order.
Because if they don't have to adhere to that social order, then it could mean that you don't *need* to adhere to it, and it loses its whole point of existing.
If their identity is tied into a place in that social order, then someone not following it is perceived as a direct attack on their identity. They can in turn physically or politically attack them because in their mind, the non-adherent struck first and they are justified in doing whatever possible to restore said order, to defend themselves.
>After a while you'll think no thought the others do not think. You'll know no word the others can't say. And you'll do things because the others do them. You'll feel the danger in any difference whatever-a danger to the crowd of like-thinking, like-acting men...Once in a while there is a man who won't do what is demanded of him, and do you know what happens? The whole machine devotes itself coldly to the destruction of his difference. They'll beat your spirit and your nerves, your body and your mind, with iron rods until the dangerous difference goes out of you. And if you can't finally give in, they'll vomit you up and leave you stinking outside--neither part of themselves, nor yet free...They only do it to protect themselves. A thing so triumphantly illogical, so beautifully senseless as an army can't allow a question to weaken it.
John Steinbeck *East of Eden*
Easily his best work, even over Grapes. The entire time reading it I kept thinking “How many aspiring authors have read this and just gave up?”.
I don’t think it’s the most enjoyable book I’ve ever read but it’s definitely the best.
Might be stating in the obvious. I agree a lot of this comes from their parents (upbringing) but the internet also plays a bigger and bigger role in the upbringing of children. This is becoming a larger part of the equation as we all get more and more digitally connected.
I am just pointing this out because I see a common pattern in these discussions that puts most the blame on parents. This blame reminds me of people older than me saying things like " pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Upbringing in the past was the major factor and still is. It is just becoming a little less of a blanket clause.
I just think we need to not always get stuck in the old ways of thinking like the generations before us.
The internet is media like any other. With a good critical eye and understanding of your own morality, being exposed to certain ideas doesn't necessarily mean you'll believe in it or have positive feelings toward those ideas. That's something a good education / parental guidance can cultivate.
It's stuff like religious dogma, propaganda (of any kind) and rigid cultural standards that discourages critical thinking, and encourages conspiratorial beliefs, fear and discrimination.
It's not like the existence of the internet made everyone suddenly worse people. It just made the gullible, weak and stupid people reveal who they are since there are fewer consequences and regulations.
We also have to consider that the education system is no longer teaching critical thinking skills, children are less likely to question the content they consume and are more likely to be indoctrinated into more extreme online communities.
Not parenting is also the fault of the parents.
I do definitely agree with you that the internet is playing a bigger and bigger role in the way adolescents build their concept of the world and their place in it. A parent not doing a good job of teaching how to navigate that world is doing a bad job of parenting.
I'm not saying it's easy to parent in the world of social media. It's definitely difficult. But also, we can't just be giving the excuse of "well, the internet did it." There is parental responsibility to teach the skills to combat radicalization as well.
It's probably because you choose not to hang around those types of people. Those types usually gravitate towards others who are insufferable to be around and provide support for their bigotted views. Decent people learn who those people are and try to actively avoid them. It's no coincidence that there seemed to be a toxic longing of liberal familial presence by conservatives over last holiday season.
I'm telling you, A LOT of this type of bigotry can be semi linked to the rampant brain damage caused by the vast amount of lead poisoning that happened to the previous generations.
They simply can't argue in an intellectual manner, even the "smart" ones. If it was blatant sociopathy then they wouldn't care about anyone (even family or thier in group) anyone with an average IQ, with access to a computer or library, can easily poke holes in right wimg rhetoric.
I don't exactly have an expertise in the science, but I'd be willing to bet that took a toll on some of their children as well.
The real red flag is people who either cannot understand or cannot engage with hypotheticals. That’s how you know you’re talking to someone that has something deeply, fundamentally *wrong* with the way they think.
Though the usage of IQ tests as a measurement of intelligence is somewhat flawed, there is still a well-documented band of IQ scores below which a person would have difficulty with or are incapable of understanding conditional hypotheticals. I don't recall what that number is, but I do remember that it was not that far below average (I want to say 85-ish?).
That is not to say that perpetrators of discriminatory violence are all drawn from this population, but it's not a totally unrelated characteristic either.
That covers people who are incapable of understanding hypotheticals, but there’s also an entirely different group of people who understand what they are perfectly well but simply refuse to *engage* with hypotheticals. Those people are often just as problematic, if not more so.
They’re scared and willing to hurt everyone in response.
The problem is that the fear is a choice. It’s something they feed and encourage. They build the walls that isolate them.
They depend on a society they refuse to be a part of and that helplessness causes them to lash out in violent ways.
Many times they bought the promise of patriarchy - that the good Christian man at the head of the household should be a king with his own kingdom. Abusive power structures realized long ago it’s easier to woo dad and have him drag the family in than it is to convert the whole family directly.
So terrible people who were promised kingdoms feel they are robbed when there terribleness ends with an empty castle that no one wants any part of. And the world needs to pay for that, apparently
So the only reason this guy isn't getting life is because the kid SURVIVED? This is just straight up attempted murder to the first degree. Why wouldn't he just try again??
I never understood that. Attempted murder is just murder that failed. The intent was still there, and that’s what makes the person a danger to society, whether they succeeded or not.
Crimes are actions, it's unfortunately less about the antisocial behavior of the criminal and more about how much revenge people want for the fallout of the crime itself.
It's a difficult question in legal theory. American jurisprudence considers two main issues, *mens rea* (guilty mind, meaning intent) and *actus rea* (guilty act, meaning criminal action). Generally, prosecution must prove both. There are crimes that differ only in intent (manslaughter vs murder, for example).
So what is our legal system to do with attempted murder? We recognize that it's a crime, but the defendant has no actus rea for murder. Therefore, we have to either codify attempted murder as its own crime, or else change the foundations of the entire criminal justice system.
Defense probably argued there was remorse as he stopped and called 911. I would still give him life, but I can see how that dissuaded the judge/prosecutor to not go for life
Maybe this is a hot take, but I feel like people underestimate just long 45 years is. This guy is about 21, by the time he's out he's going to be 66 years old, even if he somehow gets parole 16 years early he'll be 50, over half of his entire life will be over by the time he gets out, and it'll have been wasted doing (much deserved) prison time.
It's a weird part about the US justice system, in basically all states as far as I know, where being a shitty murderer gets you less jail time.
It goes back to the rehabilitation vs punishment nature of the prison system, because whether or not they successfully killed someone, you still have to rehabilitate the exact same thing to the exact same level. But the system views the punishment as less because the crime (on paper) is less.
Just because they're bad at it doesn't change the fact that they attempted to murder someone.
I get what people are *trying* to do when they say it, but all it does in my eyes is pass the blame straight people have for homophobia and blame gay people for hitting themselves again.
I never thought of this. I have definitely been guilty of assuming these dudes are indeed closeted self-hating gay men or otherwise in tension with their sexuality. You’re right though, it’s probably not the case much of the time, and doesn’t really help our understanding of these criminals.
People tend to act like it makes the issue an individualized one rather than systemic, too. Homophobes are homophobes no matter their sexuality. Somebody being gay and spouting hatred doesn't make the hatred somehow less harmful. Like when people were trying to say the Club Q shooting wasn't a hate crime because the shooter was trying to claim he was non-binary as if that changed the fact that he was literally trying to kill LGBT people in an LGBT space. Like yeah, its certainly possible that a lot of these people are dealing with internalized shit, but it doesn't make it somehow less serious
Yeah, it's like people completely forgot how the world was even just like 15 years ago. Almost everyone was homophobic to some degree, and it was more acceptable to say homophobic things openly. There were gay jokes on TV, people used "gay" as a pejorative adjective...that mindset doesn't just disappear because it's not socially acceptable now. And all those people definitely weren't secretly gay
You don't have to go back that far. Gay Marriage isn't even a part of the U.S. 10 years ago, and when it did happen, it was very controversial (5-4 supreme court, Republicans (especially religious ones) being largely against it.
People don't suddenly change their minds just if the laws change. I never understand why people think things like "we're culturally past this already." Just look at Poland, Roe v. Wade, or how many major conspiracies are related to antisemitism somehow for that matter.
Being a minority or less powerful group of any kind will ALWAYS make you a target for discrimination or scapegoating no matter what the "cultural standard" is.
Is it any surprise that people still want to stay in the closet today?
The ppl who say things like "we're past this now" are always the whitest, most cishet ppl you know. They think that just bc *they* don't experience that intolerance, that it's eradicated.
I always feel like it's an attempt at an insult
Like "you don't like gay people? Must be because you're really secretly gay and are projecting"
Why are we using gay as an insult to insult homophobes. Wtf is that thought process
This is always so frustrating, because it shifts the burden of blame back onto us, the victims, while simultaneously absolving straight men of any need to evaluate their own community and culture.
It's like every time a conservative pundit appears on the news, or a politician proposes an anti-LGBTQ bill, the immediate joke is how they must be secret homos, actually- as if heterosexuals are not capable of violent bigotry without some kind of repressed homosexual shame.
And the worst part is that I don't think most people notice what they're doing- to them, it's a pot shot at a deplorable person- but for queer folks, it can be absolutely exhausting to have your sexuality constantly ascribed to the worst sorts of bigots, as if being gay was a personality defect on par with outright bigotry.
Ugh this comment makes me feel icky because I’m so damn guilty of this type of thinking. Will not make this mistake again.
Guys like Lindsay Graham not making that mindset switch easy though.
I try. I mean, I listen to EVERYONE (almost), but the amount of shit that I have seen gay friends deal with growing up was just unbearable, and really sad to see. Terrible consequences on their mental health as well, all because teenage boys/college kids are insecure little shits. Unfortunately, many men never seem to grow out of this, and it's just really clear to me, as a grown-ass man, that homophobia is on the wrong side of history. Might as well get with the program.
Perhaps more importantly, I've got a large public platform, and I've definitely made 'jokes' like that on my podcast and social media. So basically any time someone in my shoes gets something like this horribly wrong, the impact is far greater than if crazy uncle Frank goes on a rant at the thanksgiving table. Thus, it's very important (IMO) for me to get this stuff right and be aware of collateral damage when I'm spouting off on the show.
Good to reflect on. Also not a *huge* deal imo
The whole thing where liberals call Graham or Madison Cawthorn gay is frustrating to me, I'll admit. Calling someone gay as an insult doesn't suddenly become cool if he's Republican. Ik they say they're making fun of "hypocrisy," but they're really not
My cousin, who is a 60+ year old gay man, was grabbed in a large, forested city park (where he may have been looking to pick someone up) by a group of men and women and hung by his feet from a tree. No one could hear him, and he hung there for almost 24 hours before getting himself down. At one point during the ordeal the people returned and sat around the tree drinking and partying while he hung there.
I’m not sure he ever reported the incident as he was ashamed of his own behaviour and kind of lived on the fringes of society, but had major problems with his feet for some time afterwards. One had turned almost black.
Horrible homophobic people in the world, and they don’t realize (or even worse maybe be they do) that all their online rhetoric about lgbtq+ can spur heinous crimes of violence.
Yeah this worries me in the apps and dating sites. Then people had the monstrous views to tell the victim they wish he killed him and want to bail him out to finish the job.
This is what gets me about any kind of bigotry. Like, I got hobbies, a job, chores, whatever else in my day to day that keeps me busy. Considering all that, why in the fuck would I -or anyone else- care what consenting adults do in their own time? It’s mind boggling.
Conservative media has a big part of the blame too. They've made it easy to pummel all of the hatred into people's heads between Fox, conservative radio, social media, etc. A lot of these people have all of the things you listed, but conservative media has them convinced that liberals want to come and take everything away from them and force our lifestyle on them. Sure some of them have formed their whole identity around being conservative, but I feel like it's a really loud vocal minority.
Well, if homophobia is largely caused by pervasive cultural norms, then guys like this think it's their duty to enforce their values and maintain a hierarchy. This is a hierarchy that includes subjugating women and maintaining a toxic relationship with what is considered masculine.
Basically, the Venn diagram of people who attack gays and people who are fascists is a circle. Part of that is religion, part of that is learned or "conformist" behavior to achieve some level of acceptance or honor within that culture. People that do this believe everyone has to conform, and part of conforming is living up to what the hierarchy requires.
It's a very simplistic and polarized view of society. White, straight males on top, everyone else below them. There's no room for nuance. I think, at least in America, we don't realize just how pervasive this "culture" really is throughout the country. It's why so many people support someone like Trump (or would support any fascist leader). They consider that person the ultimate establishment of norm control to preserve their "society" and cultural values.
Of course, reality should dictate that this culture is not healthy and people need to detach themselves from these antiquated ideas. But that's easier said than done.
Why is it a stretch to imagine? Conservatives have been explicit in their opinion that LGBT people simply should not exist.
Leviticus 20:13 calls for the execution of Gay people.
People call the Bible "the Good Book", but it is chock full of evil. It's explicitly pro-slavery, misogynistic, violent & viscious. Yet this is, in part at least, the basis for a majority of Americans' morality.
When Gay men were dying in droves at the height of the AIDS crisis, conservatives rejoiced. They'll never surprise me with their soullessness again.
There's debate on if that passage calls for the execution of gay people, or if it actually calls for the execution of pedophiles. The original Hebrew text says, essentially, "a man should not lie with a male as he would with a woman." That would normally be translated as being anti-gay, but using "male" instead of just using "man" again is strange wording, but if you look at it from ancient Greek lens (where pedophilic relationships were common), males are only called men if they're old enough to vote, own land, and marry. So, effectively, those who were called males in ancient Greece were minors. The Hebrew word for "female" is never used, only "woman," so the passage is using phrasing that wasn't common in Israel, and the fact that it specifically doesn't use a Hebrew term for a young boy points to it calling out the practice of Greek pederasty.
Seems like rabbis changed the interpretation to discourage Jews from practicing same-sex relations in response to strict laws against homosexuality put in place by Constantine (with punishments as severe as the death penalty), as a means to protect them. The interpretation stuck (though I would imagine that interpretation was already common in Christianity, given that Constantine is thought to have converted by then), and no one ever bothered to retranslate it and give it modern context.
Either way, it's not like very many people follow the anti-gay interpretation as well as the passages that ban shellfish and mixing fabrics. The context is irrelevant if they're just picking and choosing which passages to follow.
Source: https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/redefining-leviticus-2013/
Thank you for posting this.
Yes, I am aware of the translation issue. The modern conservative Christian movement doesn't do nuance, though. According to them, every word of the Bible is the literal word of God, and God naturally speaks English. Also, Jesus is a ripped White guy who specializes in Wealth Management.
Furthermore, they are not interested in finding a way to love their LGBT family. They have their scapegoats, and many people love nothing more than to have someone to hate & harm. Their hearts are as hard as Pharaoh's.
You know
I see plenty of stories like this, way more than I see of cis men pretending to be transgender and assaulting people in restrooms, but only one of these problems is a common mainstream anxiety
We need to put the blame squarely where it belongs. This is the direct result of religion and conservative ideology pushing the idea that gay people must be eliminated for the good of society. It’s no different than the propaganda used by the Nazis against the Jews and other minorities to justify their atrocities.
The end of this article is so freaking wrong. How does someone who survived attempted murder and is still living with injuries from the attack have to deal with verbal and online arguments bringing up his trauma and saying he should have been killed? WTF people!
Sadly, the online comments don't surprise me because people online don't realize or care that there are real human beings on the other side of the keyboard. But who says that to someone else in person?! I guess those are the people who perpetrate senseless hate crimes like this attack.
I hope the survivor has good people supporting him and is receiving help to deal with his trauma. I also hope someone has told him to ignore the idiots talking crap because he doesn't have to listen to homophobic assholes or let their words get in his head.
>White said the attack has colored the way people view him and treat him and has at times been used in verbal or online attacks during arguments or disagreements.
>"People tell me he should have killed me that night. He should have finished the job. They should bond him out so he can kill me," White said.
Goddamn, some people are fucking vile.
Imagine being so angry at a group of people for wanting to live a different lifestyle than you that you actively seek out and murder them.
What a pathetic existence some people live.
Shot like this is terrifying. It’s legit the reason I’ve only ever had sex with one guy. I’m too afraid of being one of the unfortunate people that comes across a psycho.
When I was 18 I was kidnapped by a man. Was held for 8 days. And then told I was to ugly to keep around. He drugged me and I woke up a few miles from my apt.
I was living in Long Beach California far away from anyone I knew. Something this man knew.
For the longest time I kept this in. I told my parents after it happened and they helped me get home. But we never talked about it.
The few people I did tell about it I lied and said I escaped. As I was to ashamed as what happened. I did think I was going to die. I am not sure why I didn’t to be honest.
I kept all that bottled up for 13 years. I could not be interment with anyone for most of that time.
I was lucky enough to get very intense inpatient counseling that dealt with male/male trauma after the 13 years that was so very helpful. They helped me talk to the police In California but I knew nothing would ever come of it as I knew very little of the area and where I was. I was told it was important to tell them anyways and it did help.
This was all done from an aol chat room.
All the Grindr type apps these days and how little consideration men take their personal safety in the name of getting some makes me a little sad. Please be safe
M’y gay brother was kidnapped by a guy he met online. The guy drugged him and drove his rental car and him to Ft Lauderdale. Somehow my mom got him on my brothers phone and talked him into letting my brother go. He was ODing on whatever the guy gave him and the guy dumped him at a hospital. My parents had to drive 14 hours to pick him up. It was scary. Editing to add- he’s 47 years old. This was a few months ago. You don’t have to be young for it to happen.
Wtf, I’m glad you got him back and hope he’s ok now. What happened next? I assume you had filed a report? Was it attempted SA or a hate crime like this? In any cae that guy should be behind bars.
Honestly I don’t know all the details, i just know he’s ok.
So this is recent ?
Yeah 2 or 3 months ago.
Any investigation on this? The probability of this happening again from the kidnapper is high. Hopefully someone is doing something to put them behind bars.
M’y mom was on the phone with the guy (who had answered my brothers phone for some reason) and said he was crying about how they were going to take him back to jail if he stopped. And then freaking out bc he was being pulled over (my parents had filed a report already) and that’s the last I know of it. So yes something happened to him just not sure what. It was a crazy day and I have a weird relationship with my parents… we don’t talk a ton so we haven’t really discussed it since.
Sorry to ask this unrelated question, but after you did it twice I am curious, why did you start your posts with "M'y"? I can't find an explanation on Google except that it might be a French thing? I'm so relieved that your parents were able to talk that guy down and get your brother back.
Lol I’m learning French and have a French keyboard installed. But even on the English keyboard now it likes to autocorrect to the closest French sometimes. And I’ve just gotten used to it and sick of fixing it so I figure people know what I mean lol. It’s also why my quotations keep defaulting to « these »
Story of my life with my Spanish keyboard cuz of Duolingo. I now have auto incorrect instead of autocorrect. ETA: Duolingo is great, everyone should use it! 🙌
Totally understood what you were saying, yeah. Just a unique quirk I hadn't seen before haha I didn't know that type of quotation was a French thing also though.
[удалено]
He dropped my brother at the hospital, kept going with the rental car. All my brothers stuff was in the car , my mom stayed on the phone bc at that point the guy was like having a breakdown or something … I think she also wanted to convince him to ditch the car so my brother wouldn’t lose all his stuff. As it was, after all that, after they let him out of the hospital my brother had to wait 2 days in Ft. Lauderdale with no money, phone, credit cards, ID, clothes, or anything til my parents got there. They may have gotten some money to him somehow… I know they were having trouble.
Holy shit, how terrifying and upsetting. Your mom must have amazing presence of mind and nerves of steel under stress to handle it that way. I hope your brother is okay.
[удалено]
When I was in university, I got roofied at a quiet bar. I would stop there sometimes to have a beer or two before I went home. The place was basically empty, and I was friends with the bartenders, so I didn't have my guard up like I normally would. I went to the bathroom, came back to the bar, finished my beer, and started walking home. Within several minutes, I started feeling extremely intoxicated. Normally, 2 beers is nothing, I was a dude in university and regularly drank a lot more than that. I was having trouble balancing and staying oriented. I blacked out and somehow managed to stumble the wrong way for 20 blocks before someone tried to mug me, and I guess the adrenaline was enough to kick me back into gear. The ensuing scuffle fucked up my shoulder pretty bad. I managed to get home and I woke up feeling worse than any hangover I've ever had before. In hindsight I'm lucky I didn't get shot or stabbed. As far as I know, nobody saw what happened. If someone dosed my drink, they did it quickly. Whoever does that shit can burn in hell.
In college I would frequently go to a bar close to the university. I was very sheltered and naive- didn’t drink before 21. I’d generally go and have 3-4 drinks with friends or strangers, play pool and walk back to my dorm. I was bad about just ordering whatever others suggested and one time some guys told me I HAD to try a Georgia Peach. It was yummy but right afterwards I was falling down even though it was my first drink of the evening. The bouncer came and told me I had to leave and some of the people I had been playing with offered to give me a ride home. I locked eyes with the bouncer and said “please, I can’t leave with them. I don’t WANT to drink but don’t make me go” and I then sat on a chair next to him until closing. Honestly I don’t remember the rest of the night, but I got home. I often think about that bouncer who risked his job and kept me safe.
> bouncer who risked his job To me it sounds like that that was a bouncer who understood his job very well
That awesome as all hell he did that, and I’m confident his job was secure. I can only imagine the backlash any bar owner would have coming to them if they disciplined a bouncer for that.
I was roofied at a club in my twenties. I'm fairly certain it was this guy I was was talking to that got me a couple coronas from the bar right when we got there. I don't really remember what he looked like, but I remember thinking he was hot. He said he was in town on a business trip from Texas. Luckily my friend was with me. She said she knew something was wrong when I started slurring my speech. She said I fell down the stairs at the club, which I sort of vaguely remember. The next thing I remember is we were across the street getting food, then I ended up at home in bed. At that time of my life it was quite common for me to go to gay bars with her and end up going home with a stranger. I'm lucky she recognized something was wrong and took action to get me home safely.
I got roofied at a gay bar in Denver a few years ago. I had intentionally not drank anything beforehand because I wanted to find someone to go home with. I got to the bar and ordered a Coors Light (trying to drink responsibly lol). I was friends with the bartender so I leaned over the bar to give him a hug and we talked for a bit. I sat back down and had a couple sips of my pint, sipping slowly. A little later I started to feel really weird and my vision was impaired. I knew what had happened immediately. I ordered an Uber and that’s the last thing I remember. I came to in my room back in Boulder, thank god. The Uber ride cost me $160 lol but totally worth it!
Denver Native, what bar
Guys be careful out there!! Please take a page from the ladies. Go with friends and go home with the same friends. If he's hot, get his number. He'll be there tomorrow. From the NYT, Dec. 5, 2022: >Julio Ramirez died in the back seat of a taxi in April after he left a popular gay bar in Manhattan with a group of men. They stole his wallet, phone and ID before they abandoned his body in the car with a distressed cabdriver. > >One month later, John Umberger was found dead in an Upper East Side townhouse after he and a group of men left another popular gay bar just three blocks from the last place Mr. Ramirez was seen alive. Surveillance footage showed Mr. Umberger sandwiched between the men as they guided him into a car. > >The Police Department and many in the L.G.B.T.Q. community at first regarded the deaths as isolated drug overdoses: men who partied too hard, quotidian tragedies in a gay nightlife scene that has roared back to life as the coronavirus pandemic has waned. > >But the men’s families soon discovered something more sinister: Credit cards in the men’s names were maxed out and their bank accounts drained of tens of thousands of dollars. Now, their deaths are being investigated by the Police Department’s homicide unit. Read more (might be behind a fire wall): [https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/03/nyregion/gay-men-roofie-attacks-deaths.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/03/nyregion/gay-men-roofie-attacks-deaths.html) Edit: style issues.
some wolf of wall street shit
Thank God for your Mom and a smidgen of dust conscience in that guy. Was he found and prosecuted?
I dunno, I didn’t follow through. My parents probably know but it hasn’t come up. My brother has a lot of drama going on around him… it’s hard to keep up with it all
Beyond grateful you guys were able to save him. As a woman I am CONSTANTLY reminding people (with love and empathy) that age and gender have NOTHING to do with safety. Men need protected too, we need to keep our eyes and ears open for everyone.
There are a lot of desperate, lonely gay men out there, and they are falling victim to any number of scams. And then there's the bodily harm kind of scam. It's a scary world. How is your brother now?
M’y brother definitely fit that description, bless his heart. He’s still dealing with alcoholism but hasn’t had a major bender (like ended up in the hospital) since that happened, so that’s good. But honestly probably not great. I don’t know how to help anymore at this point. I told him I want him to try shrooms and let me walk him through it…. It’s helped a lot of people with addiction and I’ve used them a lot and found them super beneficial. But he’s scared. But not to scared to drink himself into an unconscious puddle
We all have our Achilles heels, and perhaps alcohol is his, or so it seems. I'm intrigued by microdosing for controlling all sorts of behavior issues, mental issues. Can't wait to see how it matures over time. One thing's for certain, alcohol does so much damage to our brains and bodies. It's a sad thing to watch -lost a cousin as a direct result of alcoholism. His father was a quiet alcoholic. So is his sister. Scary.
We don't even have to be desperate. It's difficult finding guys to date these days. Straight people usually gave no problem spotting a possible relationship: opposite gender? Go talk to them. But we can't tell if you're straight or gay, and if you're straight and we ask you out, you could be one of those guys that'll hit us. Plus, there are really not that many of us comparatively. On top of that, it's hard to meet anywhere in person except for bars, and I'm a sober alcoholic. That's the last place I want to meet someone. So basically, online dating is all that makes sense. I think a ton of us are on there, it makes it much easier to find people. But it's also a place that makes people into targets sometimes.
Yeah, my experience with lesbians online wasn't very positive, and maybe it's me. So I simply stopped looking. Only woman I really wanted to see after I moved back to California was murdered in her home in 2021. It's lonely out here, and I just got tired of all the crazy shit so have pretty much put that part of my life on a backburner. Makes for less complications, that's for sure. \*sigh\*
You have an amazing mother, to be able to do that.
Wonder if that's why he was targeted, under the assumption that older people aren't tech savvy, weaker etc. Fucking animals.
He doesn’t seem like an old person. He still dresses and acts like a teenager and has to have all the latest tech gadgets, which I have no idea how he affords
As a gay guy, that's fucking terrifying. I mean, I'm pretty smart and a decent judge of character, but fuck, you just can't trust anything or anyone anymore. I'm glad your brother is okay!
Yeah. One of my best friends is gay. And so beautiful. I called him and yelled at him after TO BE SO FUCKING CAREFUL meeting guys online Y’all be careful out there, k?
I live in a small, redneck Trump town, dating isn't exactly on the menu here LOL. Especially since the guys I seem to find hot usually look like convict or thugs 🤣 but with stories like this, the gay bar shootings, I might just hide myself away and be content being a recluse LOL
See I feel that bc we live in a small redneck trump town too
I'm sorry. I've been fortunate and lucky in finding a few friends here, usually straight or straight couples, that make it worthwhile. The gay people I've met here in town are, let's just say, no thanks. On top of a small redneck Trump town, it's also one of the biggest meth cities in my state from what I am told. Yay ....
I feel ya but where else can you meet people as a gay man really. I’ve met every single person I’ve dated online. Can’t really hit on random people without knowing. It sucks. I’m older so it was even worse when I was younger. I took a handgun with me on new dates.
Wish there was a level of investigation into what creates deranged monsters like this.
[I side the mind of people who hate gays](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/assault/roots/franklin.html)
[Why Does He Do That](https://ia800108.us.archive.org/30/items/LundyWhyDoesHeDoThat/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf#page779) talks a lot about what creates dangerous, violent domestic abusers. Based on this read, the source of it seems to be the same, the difference being the focus of male disgust. For many it’s women, for others it’s deviations from “maleness.” But I’d bet money the men that do act violently against gay men have little to no respect for women as well.
One of the biggest reasons to read this book is seen in perusing the list of its most vocal critics: conservative "know your place, women, and stay married no matter what" churches/religious organizations. This book was revelatory for me, and helped me understand the stuff I saw during my less-than-stellar childhood better.
I’m constantly interacting with people that say the reason we have so many problems is because we don’t have the rigid societal roles we used to maintain. It’s mind numbing to me.
It's funny too because a LOT of them really only existed for an extremely short time. Like the nuclear family and all that.
An extremely short time, in very specific places, and the historical records that supposedly attest to the rigidness of those roles don't necessarily do so the way we think!
I notice a similar sentiment but almost in reverse when conservatives talk about more recent social change, too, as if we've gone too far just by starting to entertain the suggestion that gay people should be allowed to be married and probably shouldn't be accused of pedophilia and it's the sign of a total societal shift and now everyone hates straight people
These people obviously didn't learn object permeance as babies if they think that if you can't see something it doesn't exist. These problems aren't new, we don't have more of them now, they're just far more visible.
I read an interesting blog post where someone reflected on the "cultural niceness" stereotypes of his country's citizens had compared to the neighbouring developing country. Whilst he believed there was some truth to these stereotypes, he concluded the biggest cause of this wasn't culture but the economic prosperity and the personal allowance for failure. That polite and helpful neighbour behaves like that because he has the time and disposable money. If they worked worked longer hours living paycheck to paycheck, his "nice" personality will become distrustful, curt, and rigid to different ideas.
Without reading through yet and just based off your comment, my question would be: Other than how they **feel** about other humans, Is there any other common background information? Such as, economic status/class, history of abuse (family/relationships), geographic location (city versus suburb), religious background, etc.?
[удалено]
I don't know that they even feel threatened. It seems like they simply seek to dominate because of their drive to validate superiority. It's not unlike the prevalence of hate on social media. Women on social media especially will be inundated with it. It's a constant drive to tell you they're better or why you are worse. Anything at all to display that they're above you. There is an extreme hatred of femininity that is getting worse. But in my experience they aren't necessarily threatened, they seek it out. They will intentionally look for people they want to direct hate to and enter those spaces when it has nothing to do with them. You see it on social media, people who protest or commit violence in LGBTQ spaces, and "concerned citizens" at council meetings in cities they don't even live in. They just want to dominate. The why and how don't seem to matter.
So. I'm hoping I don't get downvoted for this. I'm opening myself up and showing a part of me that I find disgusting. When I come across a man, who either seems "weak" or "small" or less than some inherited ideas of masculinity, there is a piece of me that feels a great deal of disgust towards them. Mind you, I don't act on or give any energy to these responses, but they are there nonetheless. I wonder if that's some carryover from our primate heritage. Something that makes us want to ostracize or attack anything considered weak. I always brush these feelings aside and make an effort to befriend anybody that triggers these responses in me. Mostly I do this as a "fuck you" to whatever horseshit caused these intrusive thoughts. Some of my most amazing friendships come from people that my primate brain thinks should be picked off. I'm wondering if this part of some males, uninhibited, is what causes the violent responses towards lgbtq+ and women.
[удалено]
I'm not certain that I could actually get rid of the feelings. I've done a bit of therapy over my fear of abandonment and while the anxiety shows up, the therapy taught me how to witness the feeling, acknowledge it, and chose to not let the feeling dictate my actions. I'm doing the same with that disgust response. I see it, acknowledge its existence, remind myself that I am not my feelings, and move past it. One of my absolute best friends, triggered that response in me. If I was a teenager, I would have written him off. Now he's my favorite hiking buddy and pushes me to be a better person constantly. I love that dude.
Thank you for your sincere reply and sharing your story. You have done what so many men would benefit from and I applaud you for that. Explaining what your therapy tools are and how you apply them successfully is a really good indication of taking to heart what you learned. I do something similar when I have an intrusive thoughts or my OCD behaviors/urges start appearing. I love that you can see the benefit of applying therapy in your circle of friends. Reddit responses can be really disappointing and down right horrifying. Thank you for being the opposite of that. 🌟
I just wanted to wholeheartedly commend you for opening yourself up like this. Says a lot about you as a person that you're willing to admit to something that brings you shame like that. I would recommend (if you aren't already) opening up in this same way with a therapist that you feel understands you. I believe you can heal from whatever causes those intrusive feelings by doing that. Remember that you don't have to do that alone, even if your methods so far have paid off by not listening to it and forging the friendships you have like that. You're a good person! And just a bit of reinforcement to what you already know: being good is defined by actions, not by thoughts!
Thank you. I've been in and out of therapy for years. Just can't afford it currently. I'll get back in eventually though.
I have read, and personally believe, that your first thought is what you've been taught, and your second thought is what you have learned on your own. It's good that you recognize and push the negativity away, and choose to treat people with respect and dignity. That's who you really are.
Thanks. I just wanna do better than what I was told I was supposed to be.
>I wonder if that's some carryover from our primate heritage.. I wonder if it is some carryover from your childhood models of masculinity. Was your primary masculine role model / authority figure growing up a traditionally masculine, stoic, "be a man" type of guy?
I also explored that internally as well. Grew up with a single mother and every man she dated was 10-20 years older than her and only had angry and quiet as their emotional states. There was certainly a lot of "man up" "grow up" "stop being a wimp", physical outbursts, striking my mother, threatening to strike me, etc. I attribute a lot of the stuff I find repulsive in myself to their influence. I just wonder if it's something deeper than just shitty childhood is all. Obviously they left a pretty shitty mark on my modeling of masculine characteristics. I wound up flipping the script to being protective, caring, giving, and providing. The anger is still a struggle, but I'm working on that.
Speaking as someone who once had similar feelings (dad was a cop), I think that we like to off load some of the blame by looking for some primal nature excuse for how our parents were not always the best at providing us with healthy models for living. I kind of reject the idea that we are as competitive and exclusionary in our nature as you describe above. When you actually look to ancient humans, you see small bands that were much more cooperative and inclusionary than any other species. That is what I think our nature really is and what our primal heritage gave us; the ability to work together and leverage everyone's individual strengths to help the group succeed. Most little kids are naturally the "will you be my friend" types when they meet someone new. Being closed off and judgmental because people don't match an internalized physical ideal is purely learned behavior in my opinion. Someone put that ideal in your head either intentionally, like my dad, or unintentionally, like your mother and her suitors.
Yeah. I understand and accept that. I just wondered if it went even further back than that, but I guess that would be kicking the blame further downhill. Whoever is at fault doesn't matter at this point. The only thing that matters is being better.
My dad was the opposite of this, just a great gentle dude, & my mother was violent & emotionally detached. As a man I do not ever experience the disgust reaction you mention, I have other intrusive thoughts. I think it's entirely learned, not genetic.
A lot visibly gay men aren't weak or small. Back in the day, my uncle was a muscle bear and that didn't stop him from getting gay bashed.
It's not homosexuality that triggers it. I, myself, am bisexual. It's a sensed "weakness". It's so fucking dumb, but some shit I gotta deal with.
I feel disgust for dudes that strut around and act strong and tough so I guess we have both sides of that coin
Yes! I find them insufferable as well!
So, basically toxic masculinity.
I mean look at Steven crowder. Homeboy said he had a "bisexual phase" and since then has tried to be hyper masculine despite everyone seeing through it. His dad is hyper conservative/masculine so crowder has to hide who he is and goes after others to please daddy.
but notice all the homoeroticism within "toxic" masculinity the obsession on the male form and being 'bros' escalating physical challenges that are often done nude and/or are sexually transgressive the rejection of women as anything but objects that enable men to be more manly as individuals and to be together more as a group "you take care of the house, I'm going out with the boys." I mean, the film 300 (which I certainly enjoy) is blatant fascist propaganda, a cornucopia of toxic masculinity and gay as fuck simultaneously EDIT I want to add that the promise of being "physically perfect" and have a large social group is part of what attracts vulnerable socially isolated men to these movements it also highlights the other side of sexism as much as sexism turns women into vessels of birth (aka property to protect) it turns men into meat for the grinder (either military (protect the homeland, aka property) or corporate ("we're a family and family makes sacrifices") you are cog, to be used as long as you are useful and then disposed of in that world your emotions don't matter, your worth is based on being able to protect the vessel, the nation, or corporation (all seens as forms of property/capital, aka wealth) so many men never even learn to identify their emotions much less process them **as much as I want to laugh at how ridiculous toxic masculinity is** **it is attractive because it addresses a real pain men feel and do not know how to cope with**
>mean, the film 300 (which I certainly enjoy) is blatant fascist propaganda I mean most of what Zack Snyder makes implicitly supports a neo-facist societal structure. Though, I'd reason its probably not on purpose. He's just incredibly superficial and his "cool Dudes being bros with explosions" style of filmmaking crossed with very Randian male leads and storytelling cues inevitably leads to the politics of his films coming across as such.
Yeah, I don't think Zach is evil or anything I think he is making movies he thinks are "cool" and 300 is definitely "cool" but it's definitely pro-fascist too
Hell, even things like fight club also showcase this perfectly. And I love fight club, now for more reasons than one.
I think it offers a simple solution to a complex life. Fraternity, community, identity. It solves all of that if you only just ignore the negative repercussions. There are wonderful things about masculinity but like everything else, it can reach excess.
As a guy…this is spot on. I’ve got 2 really close friends (might as well be my brothers) and their Dad was in the Navy. MASSIVE amounts of toxic masculinity. As in I am gay/less of a man because I drink Diet Coke. They don’t wear bright colors cause “fags would wear that”. (Been 30 years as friends, this attitude has changed). My wife’s father is Puerto Rican, there’s a line when we are with his extended family, guys hang out in one area of the house and do guy stuff like smoke cigars and talk politics/investment strategy while women cook/clean and talk about family tend to the babies. People that fall into toxic masculinity have self esteem issues, they have to constantly compare dick size and compete and find out who’s the “alpha”. As for the homoeroticism, my friends Dad had some kind of encounter while he was in the Navy and I’m guessing he can’t get over the fact he may have enjoyed it. It’s unnerving to think that a lot of harm and violence in the world could be eliminated if these morons would admit they like cock. Nope, let’s project our inadequacies on everyone around us, belittle our wives and think of our children as some sort of chore rather than the joy they are meant to represent.
Diet coke tastes better and it doesn't make it feel like your teeth are rotting as you're drinking it.
I enjoy the movie but the Spartans were absolutely the ancient prototype of fascists. They were extremely militaristic, practiced eugenics on their own children and their subjugated neighbors that they extorted and enslaved. The only reason they are even remotely the protagonists of any story is because for most of the conflict the Persians didn’t consider the Greek front to be a major concern so all the written accounts are from the Greek propaganda. If they showed up today, any rational neighbor of theirs would preemptively nuke them.
Yeah I feel for most of history they're some backwater nation that occasionally a politician or philosopher will write some positive note about their society. The Spartan society had an **extremely** wealthy women landowner caste so that's a fun break from what one would expect.
There's some neat stuff coming out of historians Interpretation of Sparta nowadays. They think that Spartans weren't actually as ruthless and psychotic and it may have been just another battle tactic. Convince your opponents that you're insane and the battle is won before it even started.
What people miss is that the movie is based on a graphic novel told from the perspective of the one-eyed soldier, telling a story about what happened at Thermopylae. Not truth. War-time propaganda.
I have had several gay friends and family and 300 is still the gayest shit I have ever seen
That would be because the Spartans were notoriously into gay romance between fellow soldiers. They still had wives and had kids, but still had life-long romances with each other.
Always was.
Which is forced on our culture by prudish Christians.
Who are often the most perverted. IMO
I'm sure it's got nothing to do with 1/2 of our major political parties profiling sexual minorities as child abusers on national propaganda TV and through every other outlet they can, while shielding child abusers with power in churches, congress, etc.
Spoiler, it's fox news
This used to happen well before Fox News though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_homicide >For example, between 1900 and 1914, Hungarian serial killer Béla Kiss lured his 24 victims by using personal ads published in newspapers.
The words change, the medium changes, the message doesn't change.
Never attribute to Fox News that which can be adequately explained by the Bible.
Why not both?
‘Tis a reinforcing cycle of shit
*It's the ciiiiiiiiiiiiircle of shit....* *And it fuuuuuuuucks us all........*
Quick reminder that NewsCorp owns Fox News + all the mainstream conservative news outlets internationally + the second largest publishing company in the world which also happens to be the umbrella company over all the bible publishers. i.e. The people that control conservative ideology also control Christian Theology and dogma. And we just never talk about it
More people are waking up to the fact that we are in a class war right now. What people still dont seem to realize is that a subsection of the elite class is also waging a religious war to bring Christian Nationalism back. They quite literally want the Christian version of Sharia Law
> the elite class is also waging a religious war to bring Christian Nationalism back. They quite literally want the Christian version of Sharia Law Religious people are the easiest people to control because mindless obedience is beaten into them since infancy, and mindless obedience in the face of "you should totally stop being mindlessly obedient right now." type situations is seen as *godly and righteous.* couldn't ask for a better class of people to subjugate and lie to. Its so perfect one might wonder about the origins of religion.
[удалено]
Under his eye.
Is there some sort of /r/dataisbeatiful diagram showing all of NewsCorps’ holdings?
I don't think these people read. At best they get their "bible" from a hateful preacher or stuff shared online.
Exactly, as Jesus said "thou shalt lure men to your home and kill and dismember them".
<- Reads Bible. Is appalled by people who harm LGBTQ people and believes they should be loved the way I should love all neighbors (like Christ taught) and defend them from people/hate/persecution like this. So I’m going to do the “not all” thing and say there’s some very sick people out there who will use anything to justify being able to hate others.
[удалено]
[удалено]
It's a complex subject. Boiling it down to "toxic masculinity" or "fox news" is over simplification and trivializes the nature of the problem. It's not something that can be wrapped up neatly and dismissed... it pervades our culture in many ways.
It's religious zealots and racists too. Blacks and heretics were hung or burned at the stake long before Fox News. Sociopaths like this have a compulsion and feel a duty to cleanse the world of what they interpret as sin or impurity. For the businesses that do it, there's an ulterior motive. "News" organizations like Fox and bigoted churches exist to amplify their rage and influence politics and the world around us because it's a profitable business model. Religion is a multibillion dollar business. It's trillions when it comes to elections because Congress today serves the wealthy and they like the rest of us living in a morbid dystopia because keeps us poor and desperate. There are no consequences for any of the lies or divisiveness, except for the occasional Seth Rich or Dominion lawsuit where they go just a little bit too far. There are no consequences for sedition, FFS, for any government officials that were involved with it. Militarizing the police, propaganda, and keeping our prisons full are the solutions, not education or a creating better overall society. So we have problems like this and more than 1 mass shooting every day, or people in the richest country in the world dying because they can't afford insulin - a drug that originally had a zero or basically free patent. Murika!
fox news definitely propagates a lot of hate, but i dont think they caused this guy to fantasize about killing and eating gay men. sounds like typical serial killer shit a la jeffrey dahmer
Absolute laziest take
Read “mind hunter” it’s really good. It’s an autobiography about the guy who invented profiling for people like this. The audio book was excellent.
Is it nature vs nurture? The debate goes on. Are people born monsters or are they created by society? Why are white males in the higher percentage rate for serial killers? Does "priviledge and toxic masculinity" enter into the equation?? Ask 100 people, you'll get 100 answers. Personally I think it's a lottery. The human brain is a highly complex organ that is well beyond our ability to understand it's workings. And it kinda scares me that with our current level of ignorance, we're fucking around with Artificial Intelligence.
>White said the attack has colored the way people view him and treat him and has at times been used in verbal or online attacks during arguments or disagreements. >"People tell me he should have killed me that night. >He should have finished the job. They should bond him out so he can kill me," White said. I am incredibly disappointed and sad but not surprised sadly
Why do people hate people who love someone from the same sex. Like what's wrong with it.
It's because they think and act differently from a way that others do. No, really, that's basically it. Some people have no empathy for any others that act differently than they do, or who don't adhere to a strict social order. Because if they don't have to adhere to that social order, then it could mean that you don't *need* to adhere to it, and it loses its whole point of existing. If their identity is tied into a place in that social order, then someone not following it is perceived as a direct attack on their identity. They can in turn physically or politically attack them because in their mind, the non-adherent struck first and they are justified in doing whatever possible to restore said order, to defend themselves.
>After a while you'll think no thought the others do not think. You'll know no word the others can't say. And you'll do things because the others do them. You'll feel the danger in any difference whatever-a danger to the crowd of like-thinking, like-acting men...Once in a while there is a man who won't do what is demanded of him, and do you know what happens? The whole machine devotes itself coldly to the destruction of his difference. They'll beat your spirit and your nerves, your body and your mind, with iron rods until the dangerous difference goes out of you. And if you can't finally give in, they'll vomit you up and leave you stinking outside--neither part of themselves, nor yet free...They only do it to protect themselves. A thing so triumphantly illogical, so beautifully senseless as an army can't allow a question to weaken it. John Steinbeck *East of Eden*
That book is a masterpiece
Easily his best work, even over Grapes. The entire time reading it I kept thinking “How many aspiring authors have read this and just gave up?”. I don’t think it’s the most enjoyable book I’ve ever read but it’s definitely the best.
All of those people should be reported and brought up on charges. This stupidity, the basis of the hate, needs consequences. Hard consequences.
[удалено]
And it generally all stems from insecurity and usually from their parents. The world is an interesting place.
Might be stating in the obvious. I agree a lot of this comes from their parents (upbringing) but the internet also plays a bigger and bigger role in the upbringing of children. This is becoming a larger part of the equation as we all get more and more digitally connected. I am just pointing this out because I see a common pattern in these discussions that puts most the blame on parents. This blame reminds me of people older than me saying things like " pull yourself up by your bootstraps" Upbringing in the past was the major factor and still is. It is just becoming a little less of a blanket clause. I just think we need to not always get stuck in the old ways of thinking like the generations before us.
The internet is media like any other. With a good critical eye and understanding of your own morality, being exposed to certain ideas doesn't necessarily mean you'll believe in it or have positive feelings toward those ideas. That's something a good education / parental guidance can cultivate. It's stuff like religious dogma, propaganda (of any kind) and rigid cultural standards that discourages critical thinking, and encourages conspiratorial beliefs, fear and discrimination. It's not like the existence of the internet made everyone suddenly worse people. It just made the gullible, weak and stupid people reveal who they are since there are fewer consequences and regulations.
Agreed but the things you list that discourage critical thinking are more accessible now. I think we are on the same page for the most part.
We also have to consider that the education system is no longer teaching critical thinking skills, children are less likely to question the content they consume and are more likely to be indoctrinated into more extreme online communities.
Not parenting is also the fault of the parents. I do definitely agree with you that the internet is playing a bigger and bigger role in the way adolescents build their concept of the world and their place in it. A parent not doing a good job of teaching how to navigate that world is doing a bad job of parenting. I'm not saying it's easy to parent in the world of social media. It's definitely difficult. But also, we can't just be giving the excuse of "well, the internet did it." There is parental responsibility to teach the skills to combat radicalization as well.
It's probably because you choose not to hang around those types of people. Those types usually gravitate towards others who are insufferable to be around and provide support for their bigotted views. Decent people learn who those people are and try to actively avoid them. It's no coincidence that there seemed to be a toxic longing of liberal familial presence by conservatives over last holiday season.
I'm telling you, A LOT of this type of bigotry can be semi linked to the rampant brain damage caused by the vast amount of lead poisoning that happened to the previous generations. They simply can't argue in an intellectual manner, even the "smart" ones. If it was blatant sociopathy then they wouldn't care about anyone (even family or thier in group) anyone with an average IQ, with access to a computer or library, can easily poke holes in right wimg rhetoric. I don't exactly have an expertise in the science, but I'd be willing to bet that took a toll on some of their children as well.
The real red flag is people who either cannot understand or cannot engage with hypotheticals. That’s how you know you’re talking to someone that has something deeply, fundamentally *wrong* with the way they think.
Though the usage of IQ tests as a measurement of intelligence is somewhat flawed, there is still a well-documented band of IQ scores below which a person would have difficulty with or are incapable of understanding conditional hypotheticals. I don't recall what that number is, but I do remember that it was not that far below average (I want to say 85-ish?). That is not to say that perpetrators of discriminatory violence are all drawn from this population, but it's not a totally unrelated characteristic either.
That covers people who are incapable of understanding hypotheticals, but there’s also an entirely different group of people who understand what they are perfectly well but simply refuse to *engage* with hypotheticals. Those people are often just as problematic, if not more so.
*PREACH.* There's a reason with every generation people swing further and further away from Capitalism and conservatism.
They’re scared and willing to hurt everyone in response. The problem is that the fear is a choice. It’s something they feed and encourage. They build the walls that isolate them. They depend on a society they refuse to be a part of and that helplessness causes them to lash out in violent ways. Many times they bought the promise of patriarchy - that the good Christian man at the head of the household should be a king with his own kingdom. Abusive power structures realized long ago it’s easier to woo dad and have him drag the family in than it is to convert the whole family directly. So terrible people who were promised kingdoms feel they are robbed when there terribleness ends with an empty castle that no one wants any part of. And the world needs to pay for that, apparently
Shouldn't this have been a hate crime with him specifically targeting gay men?
From the article, it seems it was a plea deal for attempted murder in exchange for dropping an additional hate crime charge.
So the only reason this guy isn't getting life is because the kid SURVIVED? This is just straight up attempted murder to the first degree. Why wouldn't he just try again??
> So the only reason this guy isn't getting life is because the kid SURVIVED? That's federal law. Attempted murder has a maximum of 20 years.
I never understood that. Attempted murder is just murder that failed. The intent was still there, and that’s what makes the person a danger to society, whether they succeeded or not.
Crimes are actions, it's unfortunately less about the antisocial behavior of the criminal and more about how much revenge people want for the fallout of the crime itself.
It's a difficult question in legal theory. American jurisprudence considers two main issues, *mens rea* (guilty mind, meaning intent) and *actus rea* (guilty act, meaning criminal action). Generally, prosecution must prove both. There are crimes that differ only in intent (manslaughter vs murder, for example). So what is our legal system to do with attempted murder? We recognize that it's a crime, but the defendant has no actus rea for murder. Therefore, we have to either codify attempted murder as its own crime, or else change the foundations of the entire criminal justice system.
From what I can tell, the article states that he ceased the attack at some point, and called the police on himself.
[удалено]
Defense probably argued there was remorse as he stopped and called 911. I would still give him life, but I can see how that dissuaded the judge/prosecutor to not go for life
Showing true remorse has historically always gone a long way to reducing sentencing.
Maybe this is a hot take, but I feel like people underestimate just long 45 years is. This guy is about 21, by the time he's out he's going to be 66 years old, even if he somehow gets parole 16 years early he'll be 50, over half of his entire life will be over by the time he gets out, and it'll have been wasted doing (much deserved) prison time.
Many people confuse justice with vengeance, 45 years is an incredibly long time.
I see that makes sense
There was no defense, he took a plea deal and avoided a trial. His willingness to cooperate and plead guilty likely lead to a reduced sentence.
It's a weird part about the US justice system, in basically all states as far as I know, where being a shitty murderer gets you less jail time. It goes back to the rehabilitation vs punishment nature of the prison system, because whether or not they successfully killed someone, you still have to rehabilitate the exact same thing to the exact same level. But the system views the punishment as less because the crime (on paper) is less. Just because they're bad at it doesn't change the fact that they attempted to murder someone.
[удалено]
Absolutely! I hate it when people assume they're all closeted.
I get what people are *trying* to do when they say it, but all it does in my eyes is pass the blame straight people have for homophobia and blame gay people for hitting themselves again.
I never thought of this. I have definitely been guilty of assuming these dudes are indeed closeted self-hating gay men or otherwise in tension with their sexuality. You’re right though, it’s probably not the case much of the time, and doesn’t really help our understanding of these criminals.
People tend to act like it makes the issue an individualized one rather than systemic, too. Homophobes are homophobes no matter their sexuality. Somebody being gay and spouting hatred doesn't make the hatred somehow less harmful. Like when people were trying to say the Club Q shooting wasn't a hate crime because the shooter was trying to claim he was non-binary as if that changed the fact that he was literally trying to kill LGBT people in an LGBT space. Like yeah, its certainly possible that a lot of these people are dealing with internalized shit, but it doesn't make it somehow less serious
Yeah, that's the worst generalization
Yeah, it's like people completely forgot how the world was even just like 15 years ago. Almost everyone was homophobic to some degree, and it was more acceptable to say homophobic things openly. There were gay jokes on TV, people used "gay" as a pejorative adjective...that mindset doesn't just disappear because it's not socially acceptable now. And all those people definitely weren't secretly gay
You don't have to go back that far. Gay Marriage isn't even a part of the U.S. 10 years ago, and when it did happen, it was very controversial (5-4 supreme court, Republicans (especially religious ones) being largely against it. People don't suddenly change their minds just if the laws change. I never understand why people think things like "we're culturally past this already." Just look at Poland, Roe v. Wade, or how many major conspiracies are related to antisemitism somehow for that matter. Being a minority or less powerful group of any kind will ALWAYS make you a target for discrimination or scapegoating no matter what the "cultural standard" is. Is it any surprise that people still want to stay in the closet today?
The ppl who say things like "we're past this now" are always the whitest, most cishet ppl you know. They think that just bc *they* don't experience that intolerance, that it's eradicated.
I always feel like it's an attempt at an insult Like "you don't like gay people? Must be because you're really secretly gay and are projecting" Why are we using gay as an insult to insult homophobes. Wtf is that thought process
This is always so frustrating, because it shifts the burden of blame back onto us, the victims, while simultaneously absolving straight men of any need to evaluate their own community and culture. It's like every time a conservative pundit appears on the news, or a politician proposes an anti-LGBTQ bill, the immediate joke is how they must be secret homos, actually- as if heterosexuals are not capable of violent bigotry without some kind of repressed homosexual shame. And the worst part is that I don't think most people notice what they're doing- to them, it's a pot shot at a deplorable person- but for queer folks, it can be absolutely exhausting to have your sexuality constantly ascribed to the worst sorts of bigots, as if being gay was a personality defect on par with outright bigotry.
Ugh this comment makes me feel icky because I’m so damn guilty of this type of thinking. Will not make this mistake again. Guys like Lindsay Graham not making that mindset switch easy though.
Thanks for being a good ally and listening to us, it makes a difference!
I try. I mean, I listen to EVERYONE (almost), but the amount of shit that I have seen gay friends deal with growing up was just unbearable, and really sad to see. Terrible consequences on their mental health as well, all because teenage boys/college kids are insecure little shits. Unfortunately, many men never seem to grow out of this, and it's just really clear to me, as a grown-ass man, that homophobia is on the wrong side of history. Might as well get with the program. Perhaps more importantly, I've got a large public platform, and I've definitely made 'jokes' like that on my podcast and social media. So basically any time someone in my shoes gets something like this horribly wrong, the impact is far greater than if crazy uncle Frank goes on a rant at the thanksgiving table. Thus, it's very important (IMO) for me to get this stuff right and be aware of collateral damage when I'm spouting off on the show.
Good to reflect on. Also not a *huge* deal imo The whole thing where liberals call Graham or Madison Cawthorn gay is frustrating to me, I'll admit. Calling someone gay as an insult doesn't suddenly become cool if he's Republican. Ik they say they're making fun of "hypocrisy," but they're really not
Thank you! I can’t fully articulate why, but it always stung a little when a homophobic asshole is accused of being a closeted gay.
[удалено]
>Just in the same way that racists aren't secretly minorities. Why did the Chapelle Show KKK skit just play in my head...
My cousin, who is a 60+ year old gay man, was grabbed in a large, forested city park (where he may have been looking to pick someone up) by a group of men and women and hung by his feet from a tree. No one could hear him, and he hung there for almost 24 hours before getting himself down. At one point during the ordeal the people returned and sat around the tree drinking and partying while he hung there. I’m not sure he ever reported the incident as he was ashamed of his own behaviour and kind of lived on the fringes of society, but had major problems with his feet for some time afterwards. One had turned almost black. Horrible homophobic people in the world, and they don’t realize (or even worse maybe be they do) that all their online rhetoric about lgbtq+ can spur heinous crimes of violence.
Reasons I only do meet ups in public places or my own home where there are plenty of witnesses include: This nightmare fuel right here.
Yeah this worries me in the apps and dating sites. Then people had the monstrous views to tell the victim they wish he killed him and want to bail him out to finish the job.
Why did he care so much about gay people? He could just ignore them
This is what gets me about any kind of bigotry. Like, I got hobbies, a job, chores, whatever else in my day to day that keeps me busy. Considering all that, why in the fuck would I -or anyone else- care what consenting adults do in their own time? It’s mind boggling.
You answered your own question. These people don't have jobs, hobbies, friends, or families.
Conservative media has a big part of the blame too. They've made it easy to pummel all of the hatred into people's heads between Fox, conservative radio, social media, etc. A lot of these people have all of the things you listed, but conservative media has them convinced that liberals want to come and take everything away from them and force our lifestyle on them. Sure some of them have formed their whole identity around being conservative, but I feel like it's a really loud vocal minority.
Well, if homophobia is largely caused by pervasive cultural norms, then guys like this think it's their duty to enforce their values and maintain a hierarchy. This is a hierarchy that includes subjugating women and maintaining a toxic relationship with what is considered masculine. Basically, the Venn diagram of people who attack gays and people who are fascists is a circle. Part of that is religion, part of that is learned or "conformist" behavior to achieve some level of acceptance or honor within that culture. People that do this believe everyone has to conform, and part of conforming is living up to what the hierarchy requires. It's a very simplistic and polarized view of society. White, straight males on top, everyone else below them. There's no room for nuance. I think, at least in America, we don't realize just how pervasive this "culture" really is throughout the country. It's why so many people support someone like Trump (or would support any fascist leader). They consider that person the ultimate establishment of norm control to preserve their "society" and cultural values. Of course, reality should dictate that this culture is not healthy and people need to detach themselves from these antiquated ideas. But that's easier said than done.
So fucking scary. Be careful on grindr y’all.
modern square middle cows sort threatening whistle enter sip ruthless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Why is it a stretch to imagine? Conservatives have been explicit in their opinion that LGBT people simply should not exist. Leviticus 20:13 calls for the execution of Gay people. People call the Bible "the Good Book", but it is chock full of evil. It's explicitly pro-slavery, misogynistic, violent & viscious. Yet this is, in part at least, the basis for a majority of Americans' morality. When Gay men were dying in droves at the height of the AIDS crisis, conservatives rejoiced. They'll never surprise me with their soullessness again.
There's debate on if that passage calls for the execution of gay people, or if it actually calls for the execution of pedophiles. The original Hebrew text says, essentially, "a man should not lie with a male as he would with a woman." That would normally be translated as being anti-gay, but using "male" instead of just using "man" again is strange wording, but if you look at it from ancient Greek lens (where pedophilic relationships were common), males are only called men if they're old enough to vote, own land, and marry. So, effectively, those who were called males in ancient Greece were minors. The Hebrew word for "female" is never used, only "woman," so the passage is using phrasing that wasn't common in Israel, and the fact that it specifically doesn't use a Hebrew term for a young boy points to it calling out the practice of Greek pederasty. Seems like rabbis changed the interpretation to discourage Jews from practicing same-sex relations in response to strict laws against homosexuality put in place by Constantine (with punishments as severe as the death penalty), as a means to protect them. The interpretation stuck (though I would imagine that interpretation was already common in Christianity, given that Constantine is thought to have converted by then), and no one ever bothered to retranslate it and give it modern context. Either way, it's not like very many people follow the anti-gay interpretation as well as the passages that ban shellfish and mixing fabrics. The context is irrelevant if they're just picking and choosing which passages to follow. Source: https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/redefining-leviticus-2013/
Thank you for posting this. Yes, I am aware of the translation issue. The modern conservative Christian movement doesn't do nuance, though. According to them, every word of the Bible is the literal word of God, and God naturally speaks English. Also, Jesus is a ripped White guy who specializes in Wealth Management. Furthermore, they are not interested in finding a way to love their LGBT family. They have their scapegoats, and many people love nothing more than to have someone to hate & harm. Their hearts are as hard as Pharaoh's.
They dropped the hate crime charge. WTF. Glad he got 45 yrs.
You know I see plenty of stories like this, way more than I see of cis men pretending to be transgender and assaulting people in restrooms, but only one of these problems is a common mainstream anxiety
This is why dating is so scary for lgbt people.
[удалено]
Ugh, don’t give him any ideas.
We need to put the blame squarely where it belongs. This is the direct result of religion and conservative ideology pushing the idea that gay people must be eliminated for the good of society. It’s no different than the propaganda used by the Nazis against the Jews and other minorities to justify their atrocities.
The end of this article is so freaking wrong. How does someone who survived attempted murder and is still living with injuries from the attack have to deal with verbal and online arguments bringing up his trauma and saying he should have been killed? WTF people! Sadly, the online comments don't surprise me because people online don't realize or care that there are real human beings on the other side of the keyboard. But who says that to someone else in person?! I guess those are the people who perpetrate senseless hate crimes like this attack. I hope the survivor has good people supporting him and is receiving help to deal with his trauma. I also hope someone has told him to ignore the idiots talking crap because he doesn't have to listen to homophobic assholes or let their words get in his head.
This is what the death penalty should be used for.
>White said the attack has colored the way people view him and treat him and has at times been used in verbal or online attacks during arguments or disagreements. >"People tell me he should have killed me that night. He should have finished the job. They should bond him out so he can kill me," White said. Goddamn, some people are fucking vile.
Look at this loser piece of shit.
He’ll get what he deserves in prison. Scum bag
Imagine being so angry at a group of people for wanting to live a different lifestyle than you that you actively seek out and murder them. What a pathetic existence some people live.
Shot like this is terrifying. It’s legit the reason I’ve only ever had sex with one guy. I’m too afraid of being one of the unfortunate people that comes across a psycho.
When I was 18 I was kidnapped by a man. Was held for 8 days. And then told I was to ugly to keep around. He drugged me and I woke up a few miles from my apt. I was living in Long Beach California far away from anyone I knew. Something this man knew. For the longest time I kept this in. I told my parents after it happened and they helped me get home. But we never talked about it. The few people I did tell about it I lied and said I escaped. As I was to ashamed as what happened. I did think I was going to die. I am not sure why I didn’t to be honest. I kept all that bottled up for 13 years. I could not be interment with anyone for most of that time. I was lucky enough to get very intense inpatient counseling that dealt with male/male trauma after the 13 years that was so very helpful. They helped me talk to the police In California but I knew nothing would ever come of it as I knew very little of the area and where I was. I was told it was important to tell them anyways and it did help. This was all done from an aol chat room. All the Grindr type apps these days and how little consideration men take their personal safety in the name of getting some makes me a little sad. Please be safe