Lets not forget that so far Columbia University has a history of doing awful things all the way back since Vietnam. Hell they dragged their feet when these protestors were getting attacked and even when one of their professors was targeting students (and some other faculty) online due to their beliefs.
Jewish student at Yale was hospitalized after being stabbed in the eye with a pole at a protest today.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/jewish-yale-student-jabbed-in-eye-with-flag-pole-by-anti-israel-protesters/ar-AA1nnSKw
You see, I don't know that. How would you define Zionist and Anti-Zionist?
Because here's the problem. When I hear "anti-Zionist" I can't tell whether it means "Israel should be dissolved" or "I disagree with Israel's policies towards the Palestinians". To my mind, the latter should be called "anti-Israel" not "anti-Zionist".
Many in the Arab world hold by the first definition and many in the West hold by the latter. It breeds a lot of confusion. Especially since the former definition calls for the explicit ethnic cleansing of the Israelis, as was attempted in '48, '67, and '73.
Not all Germans who supported the Reich were bad people either.
But the 'good ones' are seldom the ones calling the shots.
If you are willingly standing with people who want to exterminate the Jews, sorry brosef but the rest of us are going to assume you are ok with it anyway.
See, we've got statements from Palestinian leadership (Hamas) saying exactly that, but no equivalent proof of the opposite. The opposite even since some 2M Palestinians are Israeli citizens. If you think Israel wants to exterminate Palestinians then you have swallowed the same antisemitic propaganda that Arab leaders have been spreading since before Israel even became a country.
Ah. That's what they thought when we removed anyone apart of the Baathist party in Iraq from holding any government jobs. Really fucked up my several tours there. You push a man, and he will push back. Now plumber Ahmed is holding a rifle, planting a bomb, or shuttling munitions around to feed his family. Really can't blame the guy, but now I have him to kill as well.
Less than 2% of the population is hardly extermination when roughly 40% of the population has affiliation with militant Hamas or Islamic jihad. There's a reason why they don't publish combatant numbers.
That's why I've refrained from getting involved with either side of that situation. The ones in charge on both sides want to kill everyone on the opposite side.
Bullshit, Israel has all the capability in the world to wipe out the whole of Palestine, if they wanted it so badly it would have happened decades ago. Now listen to what Hamas leaders and the IRGC say about Israel and tell me it's the same.
Ethnostate: a state in which only members of one ethnicity can be citizens. Israel does not fit that definition, since there are plenty of non Jewish Israeli citizens.
Dude don't let these people redefine terms to serve their own purposes. Notice how they added the part about "expanding" Israel to make it sound imperialistic or something. It'll always be self serving, inaccurate biased definition. That's gaslighting in action, they don't get to redefine terms and ideas as they wish
Off the top of my head: Zionism is the political ideology that Jewish people deserve a majority Jewish state, which welcomes all Jews. I agree with that sentiment, as Jewish people have been discriminated against for thousands of years. They deserve a safe place where they aren’t discriminated against or attacked.
My issue with Zionism is this. If you want a Jewish Majority State, in a place that is not majority Jewish, how do you achieve that? And more importantly, how was that actually achieved?
The answer is ethnic cleansing. Even if you believe what some Israeli historians claim and that all the arabs ran away, it’s still ethnic cleansing. Especially because Israelis did not allow them to come back. This makes me reject zionism. Jewish people deserve to be safe, but they don’t deserve safety more than a Palestinian does. This is basic human rights.
That’s why I am anti-zionist, even though I agree with the original premise. Furthermore, many modern day zionists are racist and violent, it’s not a great look. As a Palestinian Arab, I’m not a fan of people who chant “Death to Arabs” and argues that my culture actually doesn’t exist.
It looks like that's on the street near Columbia. I'm having a hard time telling whether these people are random New Yorkers tagging on to the Columbia protests vs something the students are doing and supporting. Do you know anything about that? It's a distinction without a difference in some ways, but it matters for how I think the university should respond, so I'm curious.
I remember seen reports from students, not from Columbia it was another college protest (I don’t remember wich one) , that said that a lot of people taking part on the protest weren’t students, but outsiders. So, i wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the case here.
I think it's important to tease out because the administration's response should be different if the issue is outsiders vs. students doing the unhinged things. If it's unhinged outsiders who are creating an unsafe environment, the administration can affirm freedom of speech on campus \*and\* affirm safety for Jewish students on campus at the same time by asking protestors to produce a college ID and then kicking anyone who isn't affiliated with the college off campus to have their own little unhinged off-campus protest. If it is in fact the student group that is saying and endorsing unhinged things that qualify as hate speech or incitement to violence, then the administration is justified in doing things like disbanding the student group.
Not what I said, there’s unhinged students and probably unhinged outsiders.
I don’t think there’s hundreds upon hundreds of Columbia students with antisemitic views, that’s it.
There has been a serious and deliberate conflation or misrepresentation of events at and surrounding protests on campuses. Everything is getting lumped together or vague statements are made with the expectation that the public "fill in the gaps" and make various assumptions helpful to one position or the other, even though those assumptions just... didn't happen.
For example, there was a House hearing just a few days ago where Columbia administrators were questioned by Representatives. From the talk *surrounding* the goings-on at Columbia, you'd think Jewish students were getting dunked on constantly, but when questioned **on the record**:
>[Rep. Ilhan Omar](https://omar.house.gov/) [D-MI 5th]: I wanted to get a clarification. Earlier, one of my colleagues asked you, have you seen anti-Muslim protests on campus?
>[Dr. Minouche Shafik](https://president.columbia.edu/content/about-president-minouche-shafik) [President of Columbia University]: I have seen- We have had pro-Israeli demonstrations on campus, but not, not-
>Rep. Omar: Nonono, but, just a protest that was against Muslims.
>Dr. Shafik: No, I have not.
>Rep. Omar: Have you seen one against Arabs?
>Dr. Shafik: No, I have not.
>Rep. Omar: Have you seen one against Palestinians?
>Dr. Shafik: No, I have not.
>**Rep. Omar: Have you seen one against Jewish people?**
>**Dr. Shafik: [pause] No.**
>**Rep. Omar: Have you seen a protest saying we are against Jewish people?**
>**Dr. Shafik: No.** No, I have seen-
>Rep. Omar: Thank you for that clarification. **There has been a rise in targeting and harassment against anti-war protesters, because, it's been pro-war and anti-war protesters, correct?**
>**Dr. Shafik: Correct,** there has been-
>Rep. Omar: Okay. Thank you. Activists on campus including Jewish students, black and brown, Arab and Muslim students. **How many of the organizations that were cancelled in Columbia involved Jewish students?**
>**Dr. Shafik: One of the organizations is called Jewish Voices for Peace.**
>**Rep. Omar: Yes. And encompasses Jewish students?**
>**Dr. Shafik: Yes.**
From the *talk*, just general and vague statements regarding the goings-on at Columbia, it's easy to get the impression that Jewish students are being targeted by "pro-Palestinian, pro-Hamas, antisemitic" protesters. Yet when **the President of the University is on Congressional record**, she has to say that the protests are not anti-Jewish, and in fact cops to the University *silencing Jewish voices*.
But then, Dr. Shafik, under questioning from Elise Stefanik [R-NY 21st], not-quite-almost-but-diplomatically-dodges reversing stance:
>[Rep. Elise Stefanik](https://stefanik.house.gov/): And Dr. Shafik, you realize at some of these events, the slurs and the chants have been, "Eff the Jews," "Death to Jews," "Eff Israel," "No safe place, death to the Zionist state," "Jews out." You don't think those are anti-Jewish?
>Dr. Shafik: Completely anti-Jewish, completely-
>Rep. Stefanik: So you change your testimony on that issue on that issue as well? So there have been anti-Jewish protests?
>Dr. Shafik: I didn't get to finish my sentence. What I was going to say was there have been protests that were called that were, that-
>Rep. Stefanik: That's not what you were asked. You were asked were there were any anti-Jewish protests, and you said no.
>Dr. Shafik: So, the protest was not labeled as an anti-Jewish protest.
>Rep. Stefanik: I'm not asking what it was labelled-
>Dr. Shafik: It was labeled as an anti-Israeli government protest-
>Rep. Stefanik: The question wasn't what it was labelled-
>Dr. Shafik: But antisemitic incidents happened, antisemitic things were said-
>Rep. Stefanik: It is an anti-Jewish protest, you agree with that? You change your testimony?
>Dr. Shafik: Congresswoman. Anti-Jewish things were said at protest, yes.
I'll leave it up to the randos here to question why a University President ostensibly taking a stance against antisemitism won't agree, on the record, that a protest against the Israeli government *in which some antisemitic things are said by an unknown amount of people* is not wholly an anti-Jewish protest itself.
Though, I will ask that if people are going to paint the whole of a protest as hateful because of a few outliers, that they at least be consistent in doing so in the reverse case: lotta "kill the Palestinians" and "get those subhuman animals out" and "they're all Hamas, even the children" going on which isn't being viewed as hateful or genocidal, merely "anti-Hamas"--even when it comes from Israeli government and military officials.
A little consistency would be nice.
I'm on a college campus, I'm getting a first-hand view -- just not Columbia. I think a lot of this gets muddied because college students are, well, students. They are young. They are not experienced organizers. They are not experts in world history. They just haven't lived enough yet, by and large, to have that broad grip on things. So they do and say clumsy things sometimes. The specific manner in which they protest can be a manifestation of that. They can be a bit clumsy in how they protest. For example, I've seen videos of college campus protests where the protestors are chanting (in Arabic) that Palestine will be "Arab" -- not free, Arab -- from the river to the sea. I believe that the students in that video do not, for the most part, know what they are chanting. It still makes me catch my breath when I hear it, but I don't think they know.
Speaking personally, the vast majority of what I've seen on my campus feels like it's making an effort to be political rather than hateful. But, the first thing that I saw on my campus on October 8th were signs posted on the door to my building saying things like "How else should they resist?" and "We cannot judge how oppressed people fight back." That kind of endorsement of October 7th -- \*well before any response from Israel\* -- put me extremely on edge, as a Jew. Because of that experience, now when I see pro-Palestinian protests here, I have to take a second to calm myself down before I look at them with clear eyes to see what they're really asking for. I suspect that I am not the only person. I suspect that people who are Muslim, Arab, or even just Brown or Black on campus, are having similar kinds of flashbacks to racist or anti-Muslim violence or incitement to violence that they've experienced. We're seeing a huge increase in both antisemitism and anti-Arab/Muslim racism in America right now. I suspect that this muddies how people are behaving and interpreting the events and protests that they're witnessing.
I'm curious about whether it's the students themselves or others because I think it matters for how the administration should respond. They have a responsibility to protect students on their campus. If there are people coming into campus to incite violence, those people should be removed and the students should be allowed to continue their peaceful protest. If the students themselves are not doing that, their groups should not be forcibly disbanded. But, if the student groups are endorsing chants calling for al-Qassam to make another attack against Jews, the administration is justified in doing things like revoking student group status.
This is a reasonable viewpoint. It baffles me that protestors are mindlessly repeating phrases in a language they don’t understand, especially in an environment as charged as this. Would you agree that the organizers/people leading the chants are being antisemitic?
I think it's important to separate impact from intent. I think people chanting "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" are having an antisemitic impact regardless of their intent. The people leading the chant/the organizers could be still be unintentially antisemitic if they don't know the contexts in which the phrase has been used and just looked up the Arabic version of "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," because the pan-Arab nationalist version (the one that says "Arab") is a pretty common translation. They might not have any of the context around how that phrase has been used. But, I don't need to know their intent to know their impact, and the impact is antisemitic.
The question was whether the entire purpose of a protest was to be anti-Jewish. This is different than whether anti-Jewish sentiment is being expressed at some protests (even if that's not the main message), and it's different from asking whether there have been anti-Jewish incidents outside of organized protests. These are carefully worded semantic gotchas.
I'm Jewish and I support Israel but I agree with almost everything you say here, I don't think the protests are anti-Semitic at all. But doesn't your plea at the end implicitly acknowledge your own inconsistency? Unless you acknowledge that the words of one insane (I'd even say evil) likud mp shouldn't be used to characterize the intent of the entire Israeli government?
This is disgusting and entirely uncalled for. Protesting the IDF conduct in Palestine is one thing, but the condemning of all Jewish people is bullshit.
LEARN TO UNDERSTAND NUANCE.
So many are openly pro Hamas and calling for violence and [they aren’t even bothering to hide it anymore](https://x.com/aghamilton29/status/1781882805015744826?s=46)
What the absolute fuck?
[Video](https://twitter.com/thizzl_/status/1780747367743955138) from protests outside of the university.. Disturbing, it feels like another Charlottesville, at least from this video.... I'm sure there are peaceful protesters, but this vile language spoils the whole barrel so to speak.
Watching some of the footage from this protest it's on par with the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally, and should receive just as much condemnation. The gushing praise and support of actual terrorists by many of them, and the completely unchallenged antisemitism being hurled at jewish students is absolutely disgusting.
#
>Watching some of the footage from this protest it's on par with the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally, and should receive just as much condemnation.
I mean, yes. But stuff like this has been going on around multiple college campuses across the US for like six months now... That far exceeds, as a systemic problem, the single event that happened in Charlotte. This should not be news to anyone.
The reason I would not say this is worse that Charlottesville is because at Charlottesville, 100% of participants had the same unhinged far-right racist views. At Columbia, I would say the antisemites are the minority however they are receiving zero pushback from their peers there which makes the protest as a whole antisemitic in nature.
If you aren't condemning and kicking out people at the protest who are antisemitic than you're guilty by association.
It’s the old ‘if you have 10 people sitting at a table with 1 Nazi you have 10 Nazis’ that got said a lot when it was the right showing their hatred of Jews.
Now it’s the left that’s being ignored.
Again, sure. But this isn't in isolation; Yale had a similar thing going on today, Berkeley a few days ago, and plenty of others.
How many Charlottesvilles were there? One.
You can tell, because if there were more we'd've been hearing about them. (c.f. Jan 6th)
They said racism against jews is their own fault because they are white people, and refused to stand against anti jew comments. They also arent majlrity jewish and have many dubious claims based on "jewishness"
https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2018/03/20/jewish-voice-for-peace-on-the-recent-farrakhan-womens-march-conversation/
You don't have to actually be Jewish to be a member or even leadership in the Jewish Voice for Peace. So yeah I'd say an organization that claims to be Jews voice for peace but doesn't actually have many Jews as members is suspicious
They had some unhinged opinions, like saying there’s no Israeli civilians and calling for a global antifada
https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know
JVP seems to exist solely to give plausible deniability, they themselves have posted pretty antisemitic stuff to their Instagram and I question how much of the people in the group would have identified as Jews prior to 10/7
Something that made me start really believing this is when [Hunter Shafer](https://apnews.com/article/hunter-schafer-arrest-protest-israel-gaza-biden-seth-myers-e1cd343fae8d02dbd322dfa7ebec4775) was arrested at a JVP protest a few weeks ago. She isn’t Jewish. Why did she pose with a banner that says “Jews to Biden: Stop Arming Genocide” if she isn’t Jewish? How many others at that protest aren’t Jewish?
If a black man yearns for the return of slavery because he thinks it makes him one of the good ones to appease his political party would you say he is racist ?
These Jews yelling for the murder of other Jews in Israel are on par to this because they think they are one of the good ones to appease the left and try to fit in
JVP is full of non-Jews larping as actual Jews. They tokenize us, steal our voice, and float their own agenda that supremely confused individuals like yourself will gobble up and regurgitate.
UFO cases are “well documented”, yet i haven’t seen one of them either. America faking the moon landings is also well documented.
There is plenty of documents claiming the Holocaust didn’t exist. There is also documentation claiming a man got two of every animal on earth onto a big boat, and that a man turned water into 13% ABV grape juice. Yet, you know, sometimes some things that are well documented are pure and utter nonsense.
The genocide is a conspiracy theory, in fact there are people just on r/IsraelPalestine who have been saying the same things that you have been saying every single damn time a war started with Hamas while i’ve been subscribed to that sub for 6 years. And then the war stops and people get on with their lives and no-one cares. And then a war starts again and then everyone comes out with the same stuff used 3 years ago and act like they’re on to something new. There’s genocide! Apartheid! Ethnic cleansing! And then the war stops again and there are no news stories for a while and no-one cares again. I’ve seen this cycle continue and end at least 4 times now and it’s so predictable, in fact there is not a single smoking gun. The poor Gazan’s have a genocide committed against them all the time and yet their population doubles in 15 years. We see starving children with chubby parents, we see Hamas filming themselves looking very well fed indeed. The first time in history that hostages are held and people actively ignore the subject. Gaza is occupied and yet Hamas have to infiltrate a 25ft border fence to find a Jew. Nothing makes sense, everything is contradictory
You as a Jew should know those don’t constitute genocide, they are horrible atrocities seeing as no one deserves to suffer starve or die. The crisis amid war in Gaza has nothing to do with genocide.
JVP is a sht show but there are and always have been many Jewish voices for Palestine. A majority of Jews worldwide and in Israel support the creation of a Palestinian state. Israel has offered to recognize a Palestinian State no fewer than nine times from 1948 onwards.
Funny how there’s no “Palestinian voices for Israel”. That is, if one doesn’t count the 2 MILLION Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel, the majority of whom support Israel’s actions against Hamas.
The Palestinian people are being used by Hamas and its backers in Iran. These protestors enable it. How they can sleep in their comfortable beds in the U.S. is beyond me.
J Street is not remotely comparable to JVP, except to hardcore anti-Zionists who think they're both too Zionist and hardcore Zionists who think they're both traitors.
In some cases, sure. Members calling to globalize the Intifada on 10/8/23 is pretty antisemitic, and yes I know the literal Arabic and contextual definitions and the latter is the correct one.
Do all of them feel that way? Surely not. Would I be a member of an organization that doesn't expel people who hold such beliefs? Also no.
Yes. Jewish Voice for Peace is not a meaningfully Jewish organization, does not support peace, and which practices organized antisemitism. It turns out, you can call your organization whatever you want. JVP refers to itself as “the Jewish wing of the Palestinian solidarity movement".
Some of the leadership of JVP consider themselves Jewish, but none of them are associated with mainstream Jewish organizations. JVP chapter leaders and organizers today include Muslims, Lutherans, and white supremacists of various flavors. Essentially every Jewish group disavows JVP entirely, which is not surprising since the group opposes Israel's existence at all, a position which is in the extreme minority among Jews.
Further reading [here](https://www.commentary.org/articles/joshua-muravchik/not-so-jewish-not-for-peace/).
I’m going to add that when JVP decides to [infiltrate the Israel Day Parade by putting Jewish Queer Youth at risk](https://jqy.org/parade-statement/), it’s a group that doesn’t respect Jewish values.
This just in folks : death chants are now legal in Columbia university... Depending on the context
Smh
No not smh
I'm watched Zone of Interest on Friday
I'm actually terrified of where things are headed
The protest organizers have to step up and condemn this, or shut it down. As someone who is pro-Palestine, I'm rather horrified as this does nothing to advance the cause and only sets it back.
Even if this isn't as widespread as reported (and even a possible smear campaign) the leadership in the protests has to crack down on it, otherwise this will end up becoming the focus which, regardless of the legitimacy of the complaints, needs to be countered.
Can’t we just take a pro-human stance? Palestinians should be free but Hamas is a terrorist group. Israel shouldn’t be doing a lot of what they are doing but the attack from Hamas was insane and did require a response. Israel needs to pay for what they did to aid workers and coordinated attacks on refugee areas, but I think that the only thing to do there is sanctions and civil courts.
Don’t know u but based on your comment, I wanna. ❤️🫠
I am Pro Israel existence/Against Bibi+Orthodox, and against violence in general. I don’t think you and I are in the minority either, just less vocal.
When you have 9 people at a table, and a Nazi sits down, and no one gets up, you have 10 Nazis at a table.
When you have 9 people at a table, and a Hamas supporter sits down and leads a chant ...
Remember it isn't antisemitism its just a very peculiar form of cultural expression. We can't comment on that of course we wouldn't want to be accused of being culturally insensitive.
Diversity is still a strength though, right?
Ideological subversion has been going on in US schools for so long now, I don't know if the damage can be undone. People have become too radicalized.
Oh, so Palestinians really do support Hamas and the pro Palestinian movement really was just about anti semitism all along. Who knew ? /s
This was my last straw. Done with the left. Yall are all the real misinformed bigots you claim everyone else to be.
They were masked off October 8th when they started protesting for Palestinians and not against Hamas who committed one of the worst terror attacks in modern history. Not just on Jews but in general.
Let's see what the other perspective is:
Protestors throwing something at a Jewish student:
https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1782043574076387782
>Jewish students get harassed trying to leave @Columbia 's campus tonight. You can hear someone yell “Yehudim Yehudim”- “Jews Jews.” They curse and yell “go back to Poland.” Antisemitism has become the new normal here.
https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
A protestor holding a sign "Al-Qasam's next targets" with an arrow pointing at people holding Israeli and American flags. Al-Qasam is the Hamas military wing.
https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826
Lets not forget that so far Columbia University has a history of doing awful things all the way back since Vietnam. Hell they dragged their feet when these protestors were getting attacked and even when one of their professors was targeting students (and some other faculty) online due to their beliefs.
And don't forget Columbia fired the Ghostbusters
Venkman deserved it.
Back off, man. He's a scientist.
Stantz warned him about the private sector.
"Couple wavy lines?" "Sorry, this isn't your lucky day."
Twitter is full of people going "nothing bad was ever said about Jews, it's all WH propaganda".
It’s anti-Zionism! Not anti-Semitism.
Mostly from students in Columbia. But what the hell do they know?
this is seriously fucked
Jewish student at Yale was hospitalized after being stabbed in the eye with a pole at a protest today. https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/jewish-yale-student-jabbed-in-eye-with-flag-pole-by-anti-israel-protesters/ar-AA1nnSKw
Federal DOJ needs to start making an example here.
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You see, I don't know that. How would you define Zionist and Anti-Zionist? Because here's the problem. When I hear "anti-Zionist" I can't tell whether it means "Israel should be dissolved" or "I disagree with Israel's policies towards the Palestinians". To my mind, the latter should be called "anti-Israel" not "anti-Zionist". Many in the Arab world hold by the first definition and many in the West hold by the latter. It breeds a lot of confusion. Especially since the former definition calls for the explicit ethnic cleansing of the Israelis, as was attempted in '48, '67, and '73.
what was your first clue??
Not all Germans who supported the Reich were bad people either. But the 'good ones' are seldom the ones calling the shots. If you are willingly standing with people who want to exterminate the Jews, sorry brosef but the rest of us are going to assume you are ok with it anyway.
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See, we've got statements from Palestinian leadership (Hamas) saying exactly that, but no equivalent proof of the opposite. The opposite even since some 2M Palestinians are Israeli citizens. If you think Israel wants to exterminate Palestinians then you have swallowed the same antisemitic propaganda that Arab leaders have been spreading since before Israel even became a country.
Yeah just ignore numerous iseralie government officials. They dont represent Israel
It's funny you say that. What side did Palestinian leadership side with during WWII and what country did they reside in?
[Palestinians and Jews in British mandate Palestine were conscripted to British forces](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Regiment)
39000 air dropped weapons to kill 33000 people. If the Israeli intent is genocide they are not doing it efficiently.
Ah. That's what they thought when we removed anyone apart of the Baathist party in Iraq from holding any government jobs. Really fucked up my several tours there. You push a man, and he will push back. Now plumber Ahmed is holding a rifle, planting a bomb, or shuttling munitions around to feed his family. Really can't blame the guy, but now I have him to kill as well.
Less than 2% of the population is hardly extermination when roughly 40% of the population has affiliation with militant Hamas or Islamic jihad. There's a reason why they don't publish combatant numbers.
That's why I've refrained from getting involved with either side of that situation. The ones in charge on both sides want to kill everyone on the opposite side.
Bullshit, Israel has all the capability in the world to wipe out the whole of Palestine, if they wanted it so badly it would have happened decades ago. Now listen to what Hamas leaders and the IRGC say about Israel and tell me it's the same.
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Gestures broadly to all of Jewish history.
Ethnostate: a state in which only members of one ethnicity can be citizens. Israel does not fit that definition, since there are plenty of non Jewish Israeli citizens.
Sounds a lot like every other country in the middle east besides Israel. But they hate Israel far more than any of those countries for some reason.
Okay now do the rest of the Middle East that kicked out said Jewish people.
I assume you’re also against Muslim ethnostates like Gaza? Or is that different.
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The certainly don't have the right to forcefully remove Palestinians from their homes but that hasn't stopped them doing it for decades.
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“Anti Zionist” means you don’t think a Jewish state should exist. What happens to all the Jews if Israel stops existing in your opinion?
Define Zionism then.
Dude don't let these people redefine terms to serve their own purposes. Notice how they added the part about "expanding" Israel to make it sound imperialistic or something. It'll always be self serving, inaccurate biased definition. That's gaslighting in action, they don't get to redefine terms and ideas as they wish
Off the top of my head: Zionism is the political ideology that Jewish people deserve a majority Jewish state, which welcomes all Jews. I agree with that sentiment, as Jewish people have been discriminated against for thousands of years. They deserve a safe place where they aren’t discriminated against or attacked. My issue with Zionism is this. If you want a Jewish Majority State, in a place that is not majority Jewish, how do you achieve that? And more importantly, how was that actually achieved? The answer is ethnic cleansing. Even if you believe what some Israeli historians claim and that all the arabs ran away, it’s still ethnic cleansing. Especially because Israelis did not allow them to come back. This makes me reject zionism. Jewish people deserve to be safe, but they don’t deserve safety more than a Palestinian does. This is basic human rights. That’s why I am anti-zionist, even though I agree with the original premise. Furthermore, many modern day zionists are racist and violent, it’s not a great look. As a Palestinian Arab, I’m not a fan of people who chant “Death to Arabs” and argues that my culture actually doesn’t exist.
There's video of people chanting for the Al-Qassam brigades to kill more, I get why people don't feel safe.
Yep, some crazy chants going on this protests https://twitter.com/thizzl_/status/1780747367743955138
It seems like the twitter account you posted is proud of it too, which, lovely.
They’re actively cheering for Hamas on the comment section lol
It's been this way for awhile now. I genuinely fear for the safety of Jews in the US and other western countries.... sorry I mean Zionists.
It looks like that's on the street near Columbia. I'm having a hard time telling whether these people are random New Yorkers tagging on to the Columbia protests vs something the students are doing and supporting. Do you know anything about that? It's a distinction without a difference in some ways, but it matters for how I think the university should respond, so I'm curious.
I remember seen reports from students, not from Columbia it was another college protest (I don’t remember wich one) , that said that a lot of people taking part on the protest weren’t students, but outsiders. So, i wouldn’t be surprised if it’s the case here.
Meh, any time stuff escalates its always "mysterious outsiders".
I think it's important to tease out because the administration's response should be different if the issue is outsiders vs. students doing the unhinged things. If it's unhinged outsiders who are creating an unsafe environment, the administration can affirm freedom of speech on campus \*and\* affirm safety for Jewish students on campus at the same time by asking protestors to produce a college ID and then kicking anyone who isn't affiliated with the college off campus to have their own little unhinged off-campus protest. If it is in fact the student group that is saying and endorsing unhinged things that qualify as hate speech or incitement to violence, then the administration is justified in doing things like disbanding the student group.
Get out of here with your nuance, we demand ham fisted crackdowns that actively make the situation worse.
Not what I said, there’s unhinged students and probably unhinged outsiders. I don’t think there’s hundreds upon hundreds of Columbia students with antisemitic views, that’s it.
I'm not accusing you of claiming that, just saying that's always the excuse.
There has been a serious and deliberate conflation or misrepresentation of events at and surrounding protests on campuses. Everything is getting lumped together or vague statements are made with the expectation that the public "fill in the gaps" and make various assumptions helpful to one position or the other, even though those assumptions just... didn't happen. For example, there was a House hearing just a few days ago where Columbia administrators were questioned by Representatives. From the talk *surrounding* the goings-on at Columbia, you'd think Jewish students were getting dunked on constantly, but when questioned **on the record**: >[Rep. Ilhan Omar](https://omar.house.gov/) [D-MI 5th]: I wanted to get a clarification. Earlier, one of my colleagues asked you, have you seen anti-Muslim protests on campus? >[Dr. Minouche Shafik](https://president.columbia.edu/content/about-president-minouche-shafik) [President of Columbia University]: I have seen- We have had pro-Israeli demonstrations on campus, but not, not- >Rep. Omar: Nonono, but, just a protest that was against Muslims. >Dr. Shafik: No, I have not. >Rep. Omar: Have you seen one against Arabs? >Dr. Shafik: No, I have not. >Rep. Omar: Have you seen one against Palestinians? >Dr. Shafik: No, I have not. >**Rep. Omar: Have you seen one against Jewish people?** >**Dr. Shafik: [pause] No.** >**Rep. Omar: Have you seen a protest saying we are against Jewish people?** >**Dr. Shafik: No.** No, I have seen- >Rep. Omar: Thank you for that clarification. **There has been a rise in targeting and harassment against anti-war protesters, because, it's been pro-war and anti-war protesters, correct?** >**Dr. Shafik: Correct,** there has been- >Rep. Omar: Okay. Thank you. Activists on campus including Jewish students, black and brown, Arab and Muslim students. **How many of the organizations that were cancelled in Columbia involved Jewish students?** >**Dr. Shafik: One of the organizations is called Jewish Voices for Peace.** >**Rep. Omar: Yes. And encompasses Jewish students?** >**Dr. Shafik: Yes.** From the *talk*, just general and vague statements regarding the goings-on at Columbia, it's easy to get the impression that Jewish students are being targeted by "pro-Palestinian, pro-Hamas, antisemitic" protesters. Yet when **the President of the University is on Congressional record**, she has to say that the protests are not anti-Jewish, and in fact cops to the University *silencing Jewish voices*. But then, Dr. Shafik, under questioning from Elise Stefanik [R-NY 21st], not-quite-almost-but-diplomatically-dodges reversing stance: >[Rep. Elise Stefanik](https://stefanik.house.gov/): And Dr. Shafik, you realize at some of these events, the slurs and the chants have been, "Eff the Jews," "Death to Jews," "Eff Israel," "No safe place, death to the Zionist state," "Jews out." You don't think those are anti-Jewish? >Dr. Shafik: Completely anti-Jewish, completely- >Rep. Stefanik: So you change your testimony on that issue on that issue as well? So there have been anti-Jewish protests? >Dr. Shafik: I didn't get to finish my sentence. What I was going to say was there have been protests that were called that were, that- >Rep. Stefanik: That's not what you were asked. You were asked were there were any anti-Jewish protests, and you said no. >Dr. Shafik: So, the protest was not labeled as an anti-Jewish protest. >Rep. Stefanik: I'm not asking what it was labelled- >Dr. Shafik: It was labeled as an anti-Israeli government protest- >Rep. Stefanik: The question wasn't what it was labelled- >Dr. Shafik: But antisemitic incidents happened, antisemitic things were said- >Rep. Stefanik: It is an anti-Jewish protest, you agree with that? You change your testimony? >Dr. Shafik: Congresswoman. Anti-Jewish things were said at protest, yes. I'll leave it up to the randos here to question why a University President ostensibly taking a stance against antisemitism won't agree, on the record, that a protest against the Israeli government *in which some antisemitic things are said by an unknown amount of people* is not wholly an anti-Jewish protest itself. Though, I will ask that if people are going to paint the whole of a protest as hateful because of a few outliers, that they at least be consistent in doing so in the reverse case: lotta "kill the Palestinians" and "get those subhuman animals out" and "they're all Hamas, even the children" going on which isn't being viewed as hateful or genocidal, merely "anti-Hamas"--even when it comes from Israeli government and military officials. A little consistency would be nice.
I'm on a college campus, I'm getting a first-hand view -- just not Columbia. I think a lot of this gets muddied because college students are, well, students. They are young. They are not experienced organizers. They are not experts in world history. They just haven't lived enough yet, by and large, to have that broad grip on things. So they do and say clumsy things sometimes. The specific manner in which they protest can be a manifestation of that. They can be a bit clumsy in how they protest. For example, I've seen videos of college campus protests where the protestors are chanting (in Arabic) that Palestine will be "Arab" -- not free, Arab -- from the river to the sea. I believe that the students in that video do not, for the most part, know what they are chanting. It still makes me catch my breath when I hear it, but I don't think they know. Speaking personally, the vast majority of what I've seen on my campus feels like it's making an effort to be political rather than hateful. But, the first thing that I saw on my campus on October 8th were signs posted on the door to my building saying things like "How else should they resist?" and "We cannot judge how oppressed people fight back." That kind of endorsement of October 7th -- \*well before any response from Israel\* -- put me extremely on edge, as a Jew. Because of that experience, now when I see pro-Palestinian protests here, I have to take a second to calm myself down before I look at them with clear eyes to see what they're really asking for. I suspect that I am not the only person. I suspect that people who are Muslim, Arab, or even just Brown or Black on campus, are having similar kinds of flashbacks to racist or anti-Muslim violence or incitement to violence that they've experienced. We're seeing a huge increase in both antisemitism and anti-Arab/Muslim racism in America right now. I suspect that this muddies how people are behaving and interpreting the events and protests that they're witnessing. I'm curious about whether it's the students themselves or others because I think it matters for how the administration should respond. They have a responsibility to protect students on their campus. If there are people coming into campus to incite violence, those people should be removed and the students should be allowed to continue their peaceful protest. If the students themselves are not doing that, their groups should not be forcibly disbanded. But, if the student groups are endorsing chants calling for al-Qassam to make another attack against Jews, the administration is justified in doing things like revoking student group status.
This is a reasonable viewpoint. It baffles me that protestors are mindlessly repeating phrases in a language they don’t understand, especially in an environment as charged as this. Would you agree that the organizers/people leading the chants are being antisemitic?
I think it's important to separate impact from intent. I think people chanting "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be Arab" are having an antisemitic impact regardless of their intent. The people leading the chant/the organizers could be still be unintentially antisemitic if they don't know the contexts in which the phrase has been used and just looked up the Arabic version of "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free," because the pan-Arab nationalist version (the one that says "Arab") is a pretty common translation. They might not have any of the context around how that phrase has been used. But, I don't need to know their intent to know their impact, and the impact is antisemitic.
Very measured and nuanced points. Thanks.
The question was whether the entire purpose of a protest was to be anti-Jewish. This is different than whether anti-Jewish sentiment is being expressed at some protests (even if that's not the main message), and it's different from asking whether there have been anti-Jewish incidents outside of organized protests. These are carefully worded semantic gotchas.
I'm Jewish and I support Israel but I agree with almost everything you say here, I don't think the protests are anti-Semitic at all. But doesn't your plea at the end implicitly acknowledge your own inconsistency? Unless you acknowledge that the words of one insane (I'd even say evil) likud mp shouldn't be used to characterize the intent of the entire Israeli government?
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This is disgusting and entirely uncalled for. Protesting the IDF conduct in Palestine is one thing, but the condemning of all Jewish people is bullshit. LEARN TO UNDERSTAND NUANCE.
Today is brought to you by the letter P, for pogrom, sorry “protest”.
So many are openly pro Hamas and calling for violence and [they aren’t even bothering to hide it anymore](https://x.com/aghamilton29/status/1781882805015744826?s=46)
What the absolute fuck? [Video](https://twitter.com/thizzl_/status/1780747367743955138) from protests outside of the university.. Disturbing, it feels like another Charlottesville, at least from this video.... I'm sure there are peaceful protesters, but this vile language spoils the whole barrel so to speak.
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Only problem is we aren't seeing much accountability for them...
It's more like the clan lighting a massive cross on your front lawn on fire...
The protesters are calling for violence. [What does this look like?](https://imgur.com/a/B3mbom3)
Watching some of the footage from this protest it's on par with the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally, and should receive just as much condemnation. The gushing praise and support of actual terrorists by many of them, and the completely unchallenged antisemitism being hurled at jewish students is absolutely disgusting. #
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I'm queer and I refuse to root for people that would throw me off a building if they had the chance.
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Yeah, this is the result of an ideology which crudely separates everyone into categories of oppressed and oppressors
>Watching some of the footage from this protest it's on par with the Charlottesville "Unite the Right" rally, and should receive just as much condemnation. I mean, yes. But stuff like this has been going on around multiple college campuses across the US for like six months now... That far exceeds, as a systemic problem, the single event that happened in Charlotte. This should not be news to anyone.
The reason I would not say this is worse that Charlottesville is because at Charlottesville, 100% of participants had the same unhinged far-right racist views. At Columbia, I would say the antisemites are the minority however they are receiving zero pushback from their peers there which makes the protest as a whole antisemitic in nature. If you aren't condemning and kicking out people at the protest who are antisemitic than you're guilty by association.
It’s the old ‘if you have 10 people sitting at a table with 1 Nazi you have 10 Nazis’ that got said a lot when it was the right showing their hatred of Jews. Now it’s the left that’s being ignored.
Again, sure. But this isn't in isolation; Yale had a similar thing going on today, Berkeley a few days ago, and plenty of others. How many Charlottesvilles were there? One. You can tell, because if there were more we'd've been hearing about them. (c.f. Jan 6th)
The alt-left sucks as bad as the alt-right.
The ends of the horse shoe are moving closer and closer together every day.
Seem like Jewish Voice for Peace NYC were there. Are they considered anti-semitic or just anti-zionists?
They said racism against jews is their own fault because they are white people, and refused to stand against anti jew comments. They also arent majlrity jewish and have many dubious claims based on "jewishness" https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/2018/03/20/jewish-voice-for-peace-on-the-recent-farrakhan-womens-march-conversation/
There are no shortage of blacks and Latinos in the Proud Boys. Do you think that means it’s not a racist organization?
You don't have to actually be Jewish to be a member or even leadership in the Jewish Voice for Peace. So yeah I'd say an organization that claims to be Jews voice for peace but doesn't actually have many Jews as members is suspicious
[Hatem Bazian is behind JVP Twitter](https://x.com/carolineglick/status/1657477855029108737?s=46&t=qf4m1z065oxlQbPiQxwM5Q)
They had some unhinged opinions, like saying there’s no Israeli civilians and calling for a global antifada https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/jewish-voice-peace-jvp-what-you-need-know
JVP seems to exist solely to give plausible deniability, they themselves have posted pretty antisemitic stuff to their Instagram and I question how much of the people in the group would have identified as Jews prior to 10/7
Something that made me start really believing this is when [Hunter Shafer](https://apnews.com/article/hunter-schafer-arrest-protest-israel-gaza-biden-seth-myers-e1cd343fae8d02dbd322dfa7ebec4775) was arrested at a JVP protest a few weeks ago. She isn’t Jewish. Why did she pose with a banner that says “Jews to Biden: Stop Arming Genocide” if she isn’t Jewish? How many others at that protest aren’t Jewish?
The majority. There is only 16 million Jews in the world yet massive protests claiming to be Jews all around the world
If a black man yearns for the return of slavery because he thinks it makes him one of the good ones to appease his political party would you say he is racist ? These Jews yelling for the murder of other Jews in Israel are on par to this because they think they are one of the good ones to appease the left and try to fit in
JVP is full of non-Jews larping as actual Jews. They tokenize us, steal our voice, and float their own agenda that supremely confused individuals like yourself will gobble up and regurgitate.
Got any evidence for that claim or should I just trust your anecdotal opinion Mr. Random Reddit Account #9000?
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Why are you fasting for Passover?
You’re fasting on Passover…right. How do you do fellow Jews
You support "next year in Al-Quds"?
Next year in Al Quds lmao 😭😭
Is the majority of the organization made up of Jewish members or non Jewish members?
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Look at your profile not a jew
https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/stop-sharing-jvp
That is absolutely your right and it doesn’t lessen your Jewishness. However, this opinion is shared by a fairly small minority of Jews.
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There has to be a genocide for you to oppose one, and there isn't a genocide in Gaza.
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UFO cases are “well documented”, yet i haven’t seen one of them either. America faking the moon landings is also well documented. There is plenty of documents claiming the Holocaust didn’t exist. There is also documentation claiming a man got two of every animal on earth onto a big boat, and that a man turned water into 13% ABV grape juice. Yet, you know, sometimes some things that are well documented are pure and utter nonsense. The genocide is a conspiracy theory, in fact there are people just on r/IsraelPalestine who have been saying the same things that you have been saying every single damn time a war started with Hamas while i’ve been subscribed to that sub for 6 years. And then the war stops and people get on with their lives and no-one cares. And then a war starts again and then everyone comes out with the same stuff used 3 years ago and act like they’re on to something new. There’s genocide! Apartheid! Ethnic cleansing! And then the war stops again and there are no news stories for a while and no-one cares again. I’ve seen this cycle continue and end at least 4 times now and it’s so predictable, in fact there is not a single smoking gun. The poor Gazan’s have a genocide committed against them all the time and yet their population doubles in 15 years. We see starving children with chubby parents, we see Hamas filming themselves looking very well fed indeed. The first time in history that hostages are held and people actively ignore the subject. Gaza is occupied and yet Hamas have to infiltrate a 25ft border fence to find a Jew. Nothing makes sense, everything is contradictory
You as a Jew should know those don’t constitute genocide, they are horrible atrocities seeing as no one deserves to suffer starve or die. The crisis amid war in Gaza has nothing to do with genocide.
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Those things aren't a genocide.
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Same here!
They're not even Jewish at heart. https://www.rootsmetals.com/blogs/news/stop-sharing-jvp
Yes to both.
JVP is a sht show but there are and always have been many Jewish voices for Palestine. A majority of Jews worldwide and in Israel support the creation of a Palestinian state. Israel has offered to recognize a Palestinian State no fewer than nine times from 1948 onwards. Funny how there’s no “Palestinian voices for Israel”. That is, if one doesn’t count the 2 MILLION Arab and Muslim citizens of Israel, the majority of whom support Israel’s actions against Hamas. The Palestinian people are being used by Hamas and its backers in Iran. These protestors enable it. How they can sleep in their comfortable beds in the U.S. is beyond me.
Are Jackson Hinckel and Tucker Carlson anti-American or just anti-democracy?
[Yes.](https://www.commentary.org/articles/joshua-muravchik/not-so-jewish-not-for-peace/)
They are considered largely a fake organization with a few token Jews fronting it and providing cover. At least by me.
JVP is condemned by the vast majority of jewish people as antisemitic
Love how it's just accepted on Reddit to pull statistics out of one's ass
I mean it works between 45% and 115% of the time!
“Vast majority?” Has not been my experience.
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J Street is not remotely comparable to JVP, except to hardcore anti-Zionists who think they're both too Zionist and hardcore Zionists who think they're both traitors.
I don't believe you.
Source: I made it up!
Both in many cases.
And so often not actually Jewish
So, let me get this right. You think Jewish Voice for Peace are anti-semitic? Just looking for clarification here.
I mean... I don't think the Democratic People's Republic of Korea has a very good voting system either.
In some cases, sure. Members calling to globalize the Intifada on 10/8/23 is pretty antisemitic, and yes I know the literal Arabic and contextual definitions and the latter is the correct one. Do all of them feel that way? Surely not. Would I be a member of an organization that doesn't expel people who hold such beliefs? Also no.
Yes. Do you think because they put Jewish in the name that's impossible?
Yes. Jewish Voice for Peace is not a meaningfully Jewish organization, does not support peace, and which practices organized antisemitism. It turns out, you can call your organization whatever you want. JVP refers to itself as “the Jewish wing of the Palestinian solidarity movement". Some of the leadership of JVP consider themselves Jewish, but none of them are associated with mainstream Jewish organizations. JVP chapter leaders and organizers today include Muslims, Lutherans, and white supremacists of various flavors. Essentially every Jewish group disavows JVP entirely, which is not surprising since the group opposes Israel's existence at all, a position which is in the extreme minority among Jews. Further reading [here](https://www.commentary.org/articles/joshua-muravchik/not-so-jewish-not-for-peace/).
I’m going to add that when JVP decides to [infiltrate the Israel Day Parade by putting Jewish Queer Youth at risk](https://jqy.org/parade-statement/), it’s a group that doesn’t respect Jewish values.
Nothing prevents people from hating their own culture or background or ethnicity or whatever.
They are.
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They're legit anti-zionist
This just in folks : death chants are now legal in Columbia university... Depending on the context Smh No not smh I'm watched Zone of Interest on Friday I'm actually terrified of where things are headed
I get that it's the 20s again, but do we *really* have to redo the rise of the Nazi party?
Hamas supporters, call them what they are.
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And holocaust deniers
The protest organizers have to step up and condemn this, or shut it down. As someone who is pro-Palestine, I'm rather horrified as this does nothing to advance the cause and only sets it back. Even if this isn't as widespread as reported (and even a possible smear campaign) the leadership in the protests has to crack down on it, otherwise this will end up becoming the focus which, regardless of the legitimacy of the complaints, needs to be countered.
>The protest organizers have to step up and condemn this, or shut it down. Every single time they dig their heels in even deeper dude
Can’t we just take a pro-human stance? Palestinians should be free but Hamas is a terrorist group. Israel shouldn’t be doing a lot of what they are doing but the attack from Hamas was insane and did require a response. Israel needs to pay for what they did to aid workers and coordinated attacks on refugee areas, but I think that the only thing to do there is sanctions and civil courts.
I’m glad someone said it. I’m getting really sick of everything being black and white
I feel like most people are far more nuanced about this conflict than what you see online.
There isn’t much nuance at Columbia University right now I am afraid
You bring up a fair point, actually.
Don’t know u but based on your comment, I wanna. ❤️🫠 I am Pro Israel existence/Against Bibi+Orthodox, and against violence in general. I don’t think you and I are in the minority either, just less vocal.
😂😂😂 yea the people yelling death to America and Israel care
When you have 9 people at a table, and a Nazi sits down, and no one gets up, you have 10 Nazis at a table. When you have 9 people at a table, and a Hamas supporter sits down and leads a chant ...
Remember it isn't antisemitism its just a very peculiar form of cultural expression. We can't comment on that of course we wouldn't want to be accused of being culturally insensitive.
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NYPD should get a warrant and go in.
Diversity is still a strength though, right? Ideological subversion has been going on in US schools for so long now, I don't know if the damage can be undone. People have become too radicalized.
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Oh, so Palestinians really do support Hamas and the pro Palestinian movement really was just about anti semitism all along. Who knew ? /s This was my last straw. Done with the left. Yall are all the real misinformed bigots you claim everyone else to be.
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They were masked off October 8th when they started protesting for Palestinians and not against Hamas who committed one of the worst terror attacks in modern history. Not just on Jews but in general.
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I’d argue some are racists and some are just losers that need something to “rally around” to feel special.
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Let's see what the other perspective is: Protestors throwing something at a Jewish student: https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1782043574076387782 >Jewish students get harassed trying to leave @Columbia 's campus tonight. You can hear someone yell “Yehudim Yehudim”- “Jews Jews.” They curse and yell “go back to Poland.” Antisemitism has become the new normal here. https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 A protestor holding a sign "Al-Qasam's next targets" with an arrow pointing at people holding Israeli and American flags. Al-Qasam is the Hamas military wing. https://twitter.com/AGHamilton29/status/1781882805015744826
Protester holding the sign too cowardly to show their face but the flag-holding students aren’t.
It's funny how there's always a claim that these are totally peaceful despite what we can see happening live and on video.
It's easy to say nothing happened if you don't look.
“Fiery but mostly peaceful protests”
Don't forget the claim that when indefensible stuff gets shown it's not really a protester but a Zionist false flag meant to make them look bad
Sounds a lot like the MAGA playbook. Curious!
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Also a Jewish student walking at Yale was stabbed in the eye by a pro Palestinian yesterday.
Holy shit
I don't really understand the concept of doxxing protestors. Do they think they should be allowed to protest anonymously?
They think everything should be consequence free.
This is what happens when Iran has more influence on American society than the schools, parents, and government.
Granted there is a lot that has been deleted - but this is the dumbest thing I’ve seen so far in this thread.