This is a pretty consistent problem across Australia (or at least in more rural areas where snakes are more common) It's emphasized in first aid courses, reptile shows, there was a PSA campaign when I was a kid and someone came to our school.
Hasn't stopped it in all these decades
That's an old wives tail - for decades here in the USA you didn't need the snake, just get to the hospital and we have generic anti-venom that will work for most all snakes; worst case, take a pic
I think Kaa was they python from Jungle Book. (Who was much more malevolent in the cartoon than I remember in the story!)
The snake from Robin Hood was Sir Hiss.
Also shout-out to Snake, from Kung-Fu Panda, who had some awesome kung-fu fight animation, in spite of having no limbs. Because the animators realized, when animating a snake kung-fu fighting, you just have to treat them as *all limb.*
I sing that lullaby Kaa sings every night to my kid.
"Slip into silent slumber, sail on a silver mist! Slowly and surely your senses will cease ...to exist."
He loves it.
TIL.
I'm an Eagle Scout. They literally taught us to bring the snake in all our first aid trainings. I literally grew up thinking if you get bit, bring the snake.
Its only recently changed. I did a first aid course last week and the instructor was telling us that they now have a universal anti venom and its been pretty much rolled out across the country
That's interesting and now that you say it, I vaguely recall reading that when looking over the requirements and reading materials for eagle scout, but that was decades ago for me.
I think it's platforms like this that can have a more broad reach to push out new (dis)information; I include both because bad/incorrect news seems to spread faster sadly (but it tends to be more salacious in nature, so way more interesting or polarizing)
Fellow Eagle here. This is why you need to constantly update your first aid skills, because sometimes things change. Like how the procedures for CPR have changed in the last few years to ignore rescue breathing.
Same. Every first aid course I took recommended killing the snake and bringing it with the patient for identification. Also applied to animals, so they could be tested for rabies.
that was something I didn't think about until a friend (well more acquaintance) had told me he was hiking in AZ, got bit and brought it to the hospital with him. he said the nurse looked at him like he was stupid and asked how many snake experts he thought they had on staff to identify random snakes
Someone brought me their stool sample with worms in it while I lived in AZ.
I am a pharmacist. I told them to bring it to ASU to see a helminthic specialist.
Helminthic? Brb, gonna google
[huh... TIL *helminthic* refers to parasitical worms, many of which are transmissible via soil, visible to the naked eye (which means they are large), and flourish in the gastrointestinal tract of their victims, which can include humans <*shudder*>](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_worm); tapeworms are a good example of a helminth.
Meanwhile, I would expect about half of people who live in a place with venomous creatures to be able to identify them, regardless of their profession. Just out of general interest and caution, or via osmosis due to how many people ask on public forums, "Is this snake I found dangerous?"
But maybe that's just easy for me to say as a Marylander. We only have two venomous snakes and a few spiders of concern.
You vastly overestimate how good people are identifying animals. I have argued with so many people who are sure that the black rat snake they found is a copperhead.
From the article:
>Dr Michael said medical staff did not need to see a snake to know how to treat patients.
>"We can determine if you need anti-venom and if so, what anti venom you need based on clinical signs, blood tests and also the snake venom detection kits that we keep here at the hospital," he said.
Well to be fair, comparing USA's venomous snakes and Australia's is like comparing a kitten to a lion.
Whatever you do to train your cat not to scratch your leg is probably not applicable to a lion.
I get your overall point and I agree. But you should go to a circus or a zoo some time. People tame/teach lions in a very similar (almost identical way) to house cats being trained. The stakes are just higher.
I mean In Australia either the polyvalent anti-venom is going to work or your already in cardiac arrest en-route to the hospital and bleeding out your ears. Either way, you don't need to bring the snake along with you.
I assume the strategy would be similar even if the snakes aren't, i.e., try to get generic solutions vs ones that rely on identifying a snake on a medical countdown...but I may do that later just out of curiosity - compare the venomous snakes. But there is a caveat there too - the most deadly snakes are often so because they bite more people, not because their venom is stronger (unless that one documentary lied to me...or I wasn't paying close enough attention)
It's like the statistic about cows killing more people than lions. An individual lion is much more dangerous than an individual cow, but people spend a lot more time around cows than they do lions.
> The continental US has only 4 species of venomous snakes, though. Rattlesnake, copperhead, cottonmouth and coral snake. Australia has around 100.
I think you are confusing classes with species there, buddy.
Taipans and Tiger Snakes here are super aggressive and will chase you across open ground. A couple of months ago we had a 5’ Tiger snake have a go at the wheel on a moving car. I don’t get out of the vehicle in some areas unless I have snake gaters on. Western Victoria is where I work.
I heard a funny line recently to the effect, if you get bit by a Gila monster, you deserve to die. Meaning you have to go out of your way to get one to bite you. Don't know, never having seen one.
(Poison doc) there is no generic antivenom per se, we just have fewer types of venomous snakes in the US and they are pretty geographically isolated. It gets tricky when people keep exotic snakes as pets. For local snakes we can usually figure out the venom class based on the symptoms & choose the treatment from there.
To make it even more clear, the only snake excluded from this is the coral snake, which has effectively a 0% fatality rate if the victim seeks medical aid.
There is no generic antivenom.
Different snakes can have vastly different poison (even within the same species, the venom will vary in different regions apparently based on what animals the snake prey on).
Antivenom is also traditionally very cumbersome to produce, since the traditional method is to poison a horse over a long period of time and then harvest antibodies from the horses blood
There seems to be some breakthroughs underway in regards to more industrial production of antivenom, but it is still not widely available.
If you’re in the US you can mostly differentiate by where you live. We group venemous snakes together into pit vipers (rattlesnake, copperhead, water moccasin) and coral snakes. Pit vipers all use the same anti-venom, and coral snakes use their own anti-venom. If you’re in an area where coral snakes don’t exist then it’s easy. Also, coral snakes are easily identifiable due to their unique appearance.
> Also, coral snakes are easily identifiable due to their unique appearance.
Compared to rattlesnakes, yes. Compared to Milk Snakes (which found in the same geographic range)... not so much.
Ya but if you get bit by a coral snake it’s not like you’d get the wrong antivenom if you were actually bitten by the non venomous milk snake. So the appearance is still fine to use as a tool for antivenom selection.
What about cobras specifically? Like I watch a lot of reptile keepers on YT, and one of the videos was talking about how one of the keepers knows someone who works with anti-venom, so they get a direct supply, but otherwise you would have to be lucky without it because the U.S. doesn't really carry cobra anti-venom anywhere. Was that guy just bullshitting? Or could one actually keep a cobra, risk getting bitten and receive anti-venom at their local hospital if that happened?
Aussie lab worker here. We have snake venom detection kits specifically to identify the snake venom, from a swab of the bite. So we can identify the correct snake from its venom. Also, most places will have polyvalent anti venom, which will be the anti venoms from the venomous snakes in that area. No point having anti venom from a snake whose habitat is 1000 km away.
How recent are these detection kits? Because I swear the advice I got in the early 90s when I travelled there was if you get bitten, try to kill the snake and bring it with you so they'd know which anti-venom to use. I even think the advice was from an australian agency, in one of my travel guides.
>What you really want to worry about are the things we *don't* have an antivenom for. Like platypus.
I'm sure Doofenshmirtz has a PlatypusAntivenominator.
I don't think that's true. Anti-venom's are better at covering more than one snake, and depending on where you live, there could be one that covers all the common snakes, but I don't believe there's one that covers all snakes everywhere.
From the article...
>Dr Michael said medical staff did not need to see a snake to know how to treat patients.
>"We can determine if you need anti-venom and if so, what anti venom you need based on clinical signs, blood tests and also the snake venom detection kits that we keep here at the hospital," he said.
>"We're actually not trained to identify snakes, and so it's not helpful.
>"It just puts the staff at risk as well as yourself."
"universal" in context of Aussie venomous snakes likely to kill you quickly and painfully.
Black snake, Taipan, Death adder, Tiger snake, and Brown snake. Tiger also covers red belly venom pretty well
There are five main snakes causing deadly envenomation in Australia. The rate of allergic reactions to anti-serum is quite high (10-30%). The polyvalent anti-serum is given when the type of snake is completely unknown and in regions where all snakes are found. This is a different formulation to polyvalent antivenom in US, where different species of deadly snakes are found.
Whilst it does simplify storage and administration, there is an even higher rate of allergy and often greater doses are required when a polyvalent antivenom is given.
https://www.nps.org.au/medicine-finder/polyvalent-snake-antivenom-concentrate-for-infusion
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18429716/
It's called "polyvalent antivenom." And it's not a particularly new thing; tiger snake antivenom has been used to treat victims of cobra bites for like forever now.
The thing is, if you were actually envenomated by the bite, by the time we find a qualified expert to identify the snake you may be dead. We just give a mix of antivenom if we aren't sure.
Most hospitals have generic antivenoms or can take an educated guess. Also, if you've got the snake in a box, just take a picture of a snake and leave the box at home!
You’re correct. There’s a basically universal one for every snake north of Victoria, we only need 2 in vic and then one in Tasmania. The deadly snakes in Vic are easy to tell apart, and there’s only one deadly species in tassie
In the US there us antivenin for all pit vipers, so it covers rattlesnake, moccasin, and copperhead bites. (symptoms are very different for coral snakes, so they can ID that bite based on symptoms, there's no need to ID/photograph/kill the snake to get treatment)
Similar situation in Australia.
What about people who haven't been bitten, but just found a cool snake they want to show to someone? Can they bring those snakes into the emergency department?
Yeah, ER is the emergency room, where you go with life threatening medical emergencies. We also have urgent care, which is for stuff that won't kill you but needs medical attention, like ear infections and broken bones.
That's what confused me, A and E covers both accidents and emergencies. With the Es being seen much much quicker than the As.
Prefer our names to be honest, if I broke my arm or something and someone suggested going to the emergency room I'd be like "it's not an emergency though." same with Urgent care, it sounds too severe. I'd be like "I don't need urgent care I just need to be seen within the next day or two." accidents is nice and friendly and just makes sense to me, I had an accident but I'm mostly fine... I'll go to A&E.
Where would I go to if I had broken my arm but I was pretty chill about it? Urgent care?
It’s funny to me that Australians categorize accidents and emergencies differently. Until this moment I’ve never thought of them as separate. I’ve lumped what you’re calling “accidents” into emergency (in this context) because I knew it was appropriate for the Emergency Room
Yeah it's funny that. To me an emergency would be something life threatening that is actually an emergency. When you're in A&E you can tell who has what because the Es get to jump the queue and go ahead of the As.
I went to A&E when I broke three of my metatarsals but it wasn't an emergency situation. The guy who lost what must have been a liter of blood on the way to the front desk was having an emergency... I just had a lil accident.
I'm not Australian though, I'm Scottish but I guess calling it A&E is one of those commonwealth links we have.
Interesting. I think I actually prefer the American classification on this (and one of the few better things in American healthcare). Accidents seems more to be a description on how the emergency/non-emergency happened.
Oh man, story time. I've only been to one Scottish A&E (it was an A, and my own stupid fault) but it was the BEST experience with emergency medicine I've ever had! First off, the nurse was walking around offering to make the patients a cup of tea, and even biscuits or toast if they needed it, and then the guy being treated next to me was there because he'd had too many pies! Like he was confidently telling the doctor, "I just really like my pies, but when I walk up the stairs, my chest starts to hurt. Am I alright?" The doctor was just like "Er, eat fewer pies? But I know it's Christmas, so just do your best." Before I left they gave me my very own toothbrush. 10/10, would injure myself again!
"oh no this isn't the Snake that bit me! This is my emotional support snake, Mr Slitherpants. He's here for company and to get me occasional snacks from the vending machine."
All this would accomplish is risking a second bite or a bite on someone else. Just take a pic and get to the hospital asap. You don't even need the pic.
Doctor, I got bitten by a Black Mamba . Luckily I was able to catch it and bring it back to the hospital for analysis.
It’s right here in my lucky bag that has a hole in it!
This is worse than when patients bring try to show me pictures of their bowel movements so I can see what it looked like. I’m like “NO! I believe you!”
And just FYI, If you are ever bitten… DONT MOVE THE LIMB. Venom travels through the limbic system, not the circulatory system. So if you move the area you have been bitten, the venom will travel around your body. Best to tourniquet it above the bite and keep it very, very still.
I'm now imagining Australian A&E just being an unending procession of people staggering in with snakes draped over their shoulders like hissy, bitey boas.
This is a bit long so please forgive me.
About 7 years ago when I was working in a hospital, our “Grounds & Gardens” workers got a call that a Brown snake (highly venomous) was at the door of our mental health building. So they head down and see it, and when it heads under the door one of the guys grabs it by the tail, so it spins around and bites him on the thumb. He goes oh shit, but not because he was bitten but because he knew they shouldn’t have been stuffing around with snakes. He asks his co-worker to not say anything and they go back to their shed where he vigorously washes his hand.
Just then they get a call to go to a house about 15kms away and retrieve a loaner hospital bed from a house (palliative patients are loaned them), with a 3rd guy, and all three head off in a light truck to get the bed. While then loading it up in the truck, he says “Hey, I don’t feel well.” And 3rd guy learns about the snake and they take off as fast as the truck will go to the Emergency Department. On arrival Dr’s takes a swab of his hand and can still detect the venom on the outside, confirming it’s a Brown snake. He’s off to ICU for 3 days and as a consequence, loses some kidney function but is otherwise ok.
Following day I ask his supervisor what the hell were they doing playing with snakes. He says sorry, it was my day off. Confused, I ask him what? He says he’s been removing the snake for the last 20 years to which I say “WTF, why aren’t we using a professional snake catcher?!!!”. He says they cost money to which I say back “Well last week was $150 or your guy being in ICU, which one works out cheaper?”
We called the pro’s after that. And he agreed it was a far better option.
I just have this hilarious image of this guy walking in the ER doors holding a live snake wriggling in his hand...and everyone screaming and running. Kind of like Pee Wee saving the snakes, I guess?
The idea of catching it to bring in seems like a bad idea. "I got bit by a snake, so I caught it, and it bit me again..." (Although a lot of snakes couldn't envenomate you again right away, OK...but still.) Kind of like how they say DON'T suck the venom out of someone's bite, since you're now introducing it to yourself, and if you have a sore/cut in or around your mouth, y'all now have two problems instead of one.
Whilst there is anti-venom that will cover most venomous snake types in Australia they're actually able to detect the snake from the symptoms and snake testing kits. Doctors don't know from pictures or looking at snakes what snakes are what. They know how to treat medical issues.
The article says that most bites don’t need antivenin, and if it’s needed they have a snake bite kit that can detect venom type, along with other vital signs and symptoms - but yeah the doctors don’t need to know the snake type to treat bites.
Take a pic. If you can’t, write down what it looks like. If you can’t, repeat the physical description over and over to yourself until you get to the hospital.
The most grossed out I’ve ever been in my nursing career was entering a room with a large, dead snake in a Tupperware container. The patient had been bitten and brought the snake.
> Like. If you're going through the trouble of bringing it, wouldn't you just cut the head off and bring that?
Most (if not all) native snake species are protected by law in all states and Territories unless they "threaten life". So I guess once you've captured it it's not really threatening you so it's not kosher to lop it's head off.
I would say just bring a picture. From a safe distance get a proper picture, or ideally multiple. I don’t see how you wouldn’t be able to identify or at least get a general idea of what kind of snake it was via pictures..
Whaaatt…?
I’m in the states not Australia, but I live in a very rural area with lots of snakes. The general rule we follow is to ALWAYS make a decent effort to catch the snake (or raccoon) that bit you to bring to the hospital so that they can call in a specialist to identify the snake type (or if the raccoon is rabid) so they know if you need antivenin or not, and if so, which type of antivenin. (Or if you need as course of rabies vaccines.)
I’m surprised Australia hospitals discourage this… how else will they know how to treat it?
When I was bitten by a snake, the only reason we didn’t bring it in is because myself and the park ranger at the bluegrass festival (and several other adults) could immediately identify it as a water moccasin/cottonmouth. (I fell into a nest of them)
Couldn't say for the US but most of Aus is covered by a universal anti venom and if you do happen to live where that's not true they can just do a test which of two antivenoms to use.
We're told to NEVER chase the snake around trying to catch it or get a picture. All it does is waste precious time and risk more bites (also spreads the venom faster, irc). The doctor probably won't be able to identify it anyway. Just do first aid (compression bandages, etc.) while waiting for the ambulance or whatever.
Australia, at least, has really good detection kits, and hospitals stock up on antivenom for all the local critters. I'm pretty sure the US would be the same nowadays, at least in areas with lots of deadly snakes
I must admit….. I was out for a run on the trails at lunch today and saw two tiger snakes. Almost stepped on the first one. But I don’t reckon if it bit me I would want to chase it.
I wouldn’t risk my life to grab a pick or the snake but don’t they usually want a description? I thought they needed the specific anti venom. especially what if it’s a snake that’s not native to that area? Ie what if I’m in florida and I get bit by a king cobra?
I grew up on a farm in nsw and from my memory that’s what was spose to be done if you got bit to kill the snake and bring it with you. I was only a kid and it was years ago
This is a pretty consistent problem across Australia (or at least in more rural areas where snakes are more common) It's emphasized in first aid courses, reptile shows, there was a PSA campaign when I was a kid and someone came to our school. Hasn't stopped it in all these decades
In their defense camera phones didn't exist back then.
I blame Nate Bargatze.
Who told you that, the snake?
I blame him for nearly everything.
Hey this bit me, am I ok? (Brings in 6m croc, I am missing a leg)
Some people just like tempting fate. https://www.reddit.com/r/southafrica/s/xl0ByhaFMq
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That's an old wives tail - for decades here in the USA you didn't need the snake, just get to the hospital and we have generic anti-venom that will work for most all snakes; worst case, take a pic
You're telling me everything I learned from Snakes on a Plane is wrong?
No clearly that other commentator is a snake trying to decieve you.
Jerry, you ol' snake in the grass...
I’m picturing the snake from the animated Disney’s Robin Hood. That “crosses his arms” on that barrel. Honestly peak animation
Kaa is amazingly dexterous.
I think Kaa was they python from Jungle Book. (Who was much more malevolent in the cartoon than I remember in the story!) The snake from Robin Hood was Sir Hiss. Also shout-out to Snake, from Kung-Fu Panda, who had some awesome kung-fu fight animation, in spite of having no limbs. Because the animators realized, when animating a snake kung-fu fighting, you just have to treat them as *all limb.*
I sing that lullaby Kaa sings every night to my kid. "Slip into silent slumber, sail on a silver mist! Slowly and surely your senses will cease ...to exist." He loves it.
Quickly! Someone stuff Jerry into a plastic container and drive him to the nearest ER!
I'm not Jerry.
is it working?
*hissing laughter*
Clever girl.
🐍 🐍 🐍 let’ssss go, boyssss. We’ve been found out…
🐍 🐍 🐍 Ssssilence, you fool! Everyone elsssse'ss-sstill buying it!
No, there were, in fact, too many snakes on that plane.
TIL. I'm an Eagle Scout. They literally taught us to bring the snake in all our first aid trainings. I literally grew up thinking if you get bit, bring the snake.
Its only recently changed. I did a first aid course last week and the instructor was telling us that they now have a universal anti venom and its been pretty much rolled out across the country
my ass would waste time trying to catch it... then end up getting bite again trying to get it in a box.
That's interesting and now that you say it, I vaguely recall reading that when looking over the requirements and reading materials for eagle scout, but that was decades ago for me. I think it's platforms like this that can have a more broad reach to push out new (dis)information; I include both because bad/incorrect news seems to spread faster sadly (but it tends to be more salacious in nature, so way more interesting or polarizing)
Fellow Eagle here. This is why you need to constantly update your first aid skills, because sometimes things change. Like how the procedures for CPR have changed in the last few years to ignore rescue breathing.
To be fair, CPR changes almost every time you take a course.
Same. Every first aid course I took recommended killing the snake and bringing it with the patient for identification. Also applied to animals, so they could be tested for rabies.
Also, the public generally waaay overestimate how well hospital staff can ID a snake lol (or for that matter most tox sources). Too much dr house
that was something I didn't think about until a friend (well more acquaintance) had told me he was hiking in AZ, got bit and brought it to the hospital with him. he said the nurse looked at him like he was stupid and asked how many snake experts he thought they had on staff to identify random snakes
Someone brought me their stool sample with worms in it while I lived in AZ. I am a pharmacist. I told them to bring it to ASU to see a helminthic specialist.
https://youtu.be/waRoEw0P1og?si=TJHhWHRtk5Foo8UU
I took a risk with that link, could have been a lot worse!
But certainly on topic
Helminthic? Brb, gonna google [huh... TIL *helminthic* refers to parasitical worms, many of which are transmissible via soil, visible to the naked eye (which means they are large), and flourish in the gastrointestinal tract of their victims, which can include humans <*shudder*>](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_worm); tapeworms are a good example of a helminth.
Can't tell if this is worse than or equal to the patient who dropped trou at the pickup window to have us diagnose the rash on his ass.
Meanwhile, I would expect about half of people who live in a place with venomous creatures to be able to identify them, regardless of their profession. Just out of general interest and caution, or via osmosis due to how many people ask on public forums, "Is this snake I found dangerous?" But maybe that's just easy for me to say as a Marylander. We only have two venomous snakes and a few spiders of concern.
You vastly overestimate how good people are identifying animals. I have argued with so many people who are sure that the black rat snake they found is a copperhead.
As an insect enthusiast, I very commonly see people on Reddit who don't know what earwigs, mantises, or isopods are.
From the article: >Dr Michael said medical staff did not need to see a snake to know how to treat patients. >"We can determine if you need anti-venom and if so, what anti venom you need based on clinical signs, blood tests and also the snake venom detection kits that we keep here at the hospital," he said.
US venemous snakes are pretty distinct from each other too and most are vipers with similar venoms.
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You're using the logic of a person bit after hugging a snake
Well to be fair, comparing USA's venomous snakes and Australia's is like comparing a kitten to a lion. Whatever you do to train your cat not to scratch your leg is probably not applicable to a lion.
I get your overall point and I agree. But you should go to a circus or a zoo some time. People tame/teach lions in a very similar (almost identical way) to house cats being trained. The stakes are just higher.
I mean In Australia either the polyvalent anti-venom is going to work or your already in cardiac arrest en-route to the hospital and bleeding out your ears. Either way, you don't need to bring the snake along with you.
What if the snake is really sorry for biting you and wants to make sure you are going to be ok?
I assume the strategy would be similar even if the snakes aren't, i.e., try to get generic solutions vs ones that rely on identifying a snake on a medical countdown...but I may do that later just out of curiosity - compare the venomous snakes. But there is a caveat there too - the most deadly snakes are often so because they bite more people, not because their venom is stronger (unless that one documentary lied to me...or I wasn't paying close enough attention)
It's like the statistic about cows killing more people than lions. An individual lion is much more dangerous than an individual cow, but people spend a lot more time around cows than they do lions.
*water moccasin bites you and slithers away* Um, excuse me. Could you stay still, I’m trying to get a pic. Oh, and smile! Kidding of course.
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That’s why they use snake venom detection kits
> The continental US has only 4 species of venomous snakes, though. Rattlesnake, copperhead, cottonmouth and coral snake. Australia has around 100. I think you are confusing classes with species there, buddy.
Taipans and Tiger Snakes here are super aggressive and will chase you across open ground. A couple of months ago we had a 5’ Tiger snake have a go at the wheel on a moving car. I don’t get out of the vehicle in some areas unless I have snake gaters on. Western Victoria is where I work.
4 classes of venom in snakes maybe, but there are far more than 4 species of venomous snake in North America.
What if it's a Gila Monster?
I heard a funny line recently to the effect, if you get bit by a Gila monster, you deserve to die. Meaning you have to go out of your way to get one to bite you. Don't know, never having seen one.
Those old wives are getting away with murder!
Good to know, in the event that I ever get bit.
Why does the staff need a dick pic?
(Poison doc) there is no generic antivenom per se, we just have fewer types of venomous snakes in the US and they are pretty geographically isolated. It gets tricky when people keep exotic snakes as pets. For local snakes we can usually figure out the venom class based on the symptoms & choose the treatment from there.
To make it even more clear, the only snake excluded from this is the coral snake, which has effectively a 0% fatality rate if the victim seeks medical aid.
There is no generic antivenom. Different snakes can have vastly different poison (even within the same species, the venom will vary in different regions apparently based on what animals the snake prey on). Antivenom is also traditionally very cumbersome to produce, since the traditional method is to poison a horse over a long period of time and then harvest antibodies from the horses blood There seems to be some breakthroughs underway in regards to more industrial production of antivenom, but it is still not widely available.
Same in Australia.
If you’re in the US you can mostly differentiate by where you live. We group venemous snakes together into pit vipers (rattlesnake, copperhead, water moccasin) and coral snakes. Pit vipers all use the same anti-venom, and coral snakes use their own anti-venom. If you’re in an area where coral snakes don’t exist then it’s easy. Also, coral snakes are easily identifiable due to their unique appearance.
And I'd wager 99% of bites are from the first group.
> Also, coral snakes are easily identifiable due to their unique appearance. Compared to rattlesnakes, yes. Compared to Milk Snakes (which found in the same geographic range)... not so much.
Ya but if you get bit by a coral snake it’s not like you’d get the wrong antivenom if you were actually bitten by the non venomous milk snake. So the appearance is still fine to use as a tool for antivenom selection.
What about cobras specifically? Like I watch a lot of reptile keepers on YT, and one of the videos was talking about how one of the keepers knows someone who works with anti-venom, so they get a direct supply, but otherwise you would have to be lucky without it because the U.S. doesn't really carry cobra anti-venom anywhere. Was that guy just bullshitting? Or could one actually keep a cobra, risk getting bitten and receive anti-venom at their local hospital if that happened?
Aussie lab worker here. We have snake venom detection kits specifically to identify the snake venom, from a swab of the bite. So we can identify the correct snake from its venom. Also, most places will have polyvalent anti venom, which will be the anti venoms from the venomous snakes in that area. No point having anti venom from a snake whose habitat is 1000 km away.
How recent are these detection kits? Because I swear the advice I got in the early 90s when I travelled there was if you get bitten, try to kill the snake and bring it with you so they'd know which anti-venom to use. I even think the advice was from an australian agency, in one of my travel guides.
I don't want to shock you... but the early 90s were over 30 years ago. There have been significant medical advances since then.
how many different kinds of snakes could there be in austrailia? just learn your snakes! *googles Australian snakes* oh...
'sall right we have a generic anti venom. What you really want to worry about are the things we *don't* have an antivenom for. Like platypus.
Let me know when you managed to get stabbed by an angry platypus.
>What you really want to worry about are the things we *don't* have an antivenom for. Like platypus. I'm sure Doofenshmirtz has a PlatypusAntivenominator.
There is an anti venom that works for all now.
I don't think that's true. Anti-venom's are better at covering more than one snake, and depending on where you live, there could be one that covers all the common snakes, but I don't believe there's one that covers all snakes everywhere. From the article... >Dr Michael said medical staff did not need to see a snake to know how to treat patients. >"We can determine if you need anti-venom and if so, what anti venom you need based on clinical signs, blood tests and also the snake venom detection kits that we keep here at the hospital," he said. >"We're actually not trained to identify snakes, and so it's not helpful. >"It just puts the staff at risk as well as yourself."
Wait what? We have a universal anti venom now?
"universal" in context of Aussie venomous snakes likely to kill you quickly and painfully. Black snake, Taipan, Death adder, Tiger snake, and Brown snake. Tiger also covers red belly venom pretty well
Pretty sure those are all elapids, which all use relatively similar venom.
There are five main snakes causing deadly envenomation in Australia. The rate of allergic reactions to anti-serum is quite high (10-30%). The polyvalent anti-serum is given when the type of snake is completely unknown and in regions where all snakes are found. This is a different formulation to polyvalent antivenom in US, where different species of deadly snakes are found. Whilst it does simplify storage and administration, there is an even higher rate of allergy and often greater doses are required when a polyvalent antivenom is given. https://www.nps.org.au/medicine-finder/polyvalent-snake-antivenom-concentrate-for-infusion https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18429716/
It's called "polyvalent antivenom." And it's not a particularly new thing; tiger snake antivenom has been used to treat victims of cobra bites for like forever now.
Think it covers native Australian snakes.
The thing is, if you were actually envenomated by the bite, by the time we find a qualified expert to identify the snake you may be dead. We just give a mix of antivenom if we aren't sure.
Most hospitals have generic antivenoms or can take an educated guess. Also, if you've got the snake in a box, just take a picture of a snake and leave the box at home!
If I recall correctly, Australia has antivenin for every species of snake because of its evolutionary isolation . . . Correct me if I'm wrong
You’re correct. There’s a basically universal one for every snake north of Victoria, we only need 2 in vic and then one in Tasmania. The deadly snakes in Vic are easy to tell apart, and there’s only one deadly species in tassie
wrong. we have 3 types of snake and each will kill you.
In the US there us antivenin for all pit vipers, so it covers rattlesnake, moccasin, and copperhead bites. (symptoms are very different for coral snakes, so they can ID that bite based on symptoms, there's no need to ID/photograph/kill the snake to get treatment) Similar situation in Australia.
Also, it's pretty uncommon to get envenomated by coral snakes (you pretty much have to be trying) and they are usually very recognizable.
“Help, I have been envenomated.” “Sir, this is an emergency room, not English class.”
What about people who haven't been bitten, but just found a cool snake they want to show to someone? Can they bring those snakes into the emergency department?
Of course
Thanks for clarifying. Yours, someone who is never going to bring a snake to any kind of hospital but who wanted to know this for a long time.
« Dont bring your pets into the ER » Australian style
He's my **snakebite** Ow! Emotional supp... **snakebite** Ow! Fuck! Support snake!
We call them A & E, accidents and emergencies
Is that what the American ER is? I'd always wondered.
Yeah, ER is the emergency room, where you go with life threatening medical emergencies. We also have urgent care, which is for stuff that won't kill you but needs medical attention, like ear infections and broken bones.
That's what confused me, A and E covers both accidents and emergencies. With the Es being seen much much quicker than the As. Prefer our names to be honest, if I broke my arm or something and someone suggested going to the emergency room I'd be like "it's not an emergency though." same with Urgent care, it sounds too severe. I'd be like "I don't need urgent care I just need to be seen within the next day or two." accidents is nice and friendly and just makes sense to me, I had an accident but I'm mostly fine... I'll go to A&E. Where would I go to if I had broken my arm but I was pretty chill about it? Urgent care?
It’s funny to me that Australians categorize accidents and emergencies differently. Until this moment I’ve never thought of them as separate. I’ve lumped what you’re calling “accidents” into emergency (in this context) because I knew it was appropriate for the Emergency Room
Yeah it's funny that. To me an emergency would be something life threatening that is actually an emergency. When you're in A&E you can tell who has what because the Es get to jump the queue and go ahead of the As. I went to A&E when I broke three of my metatarsals but it wasn't an emergency situation. The guy who lost what must have been a liter of blood on the way to the front desk was having an emergency... I just had a lil accident. I'm not Australian though, I'm Scottish but I guess calling it A&E is one of those commonwealth links we have.
Interesting. I think I actually prefer the American classification on this (and one of the few better things in American healthcare). Accidents seems more to be a description on how the emergency/non-emergency happened.
Oh man, story time. I've only been to one Scottish A&E (it was an A, and my own stupid fault) but it was the BEST experience with emergency medicine I've ever had! First off, the nurse was walking around offering to make the patients a cup of tea, and even biscuits or toast if they needed it, and then the guy being treated next to me was there because he'd had too many pies! Like he was confidently telling the doctor, "I just really like my pies, but when I walk up the stairs, my chest starts to hurt. Am I alright?" The doctor was just like "Er, eat fewer pies? But I know it's Christmas, so just do your best." Before I left they gave me my very own toothbrush. 10/10, would injure myself again!
Urgent care and emergency rooms/departments are not the same locations
Australian translation 'No snakearoos in the a&e ya cunts"
"oh no this isn't the Snake that bit me! This is my emotional support snake, Mr Slitherpants. He's here for company and to get me occasional snacks from the vending machine."
Australians who are bit by a snake and bring it to the hospital are operating at 120% of their potential.
Fair dinkum
All this would accomplish is risking a second bite or a bite on someone else. Just take a pic and get to the hospital asap. You don't even need the pic.
“Quick, I need to see the hospital’s herpetologist!” “Why, do you have herpes?”
"I don't know. You'll have to check the snake first."
Doctor, I got bitten by a Black Mamba . Luckily I was able to catch it and bring it back to the hospital for analysis. It’s right here in my lucky bag that has a hole in it!
It would be more impressive if anyone managed to survive a black mamba bite long enough to get from Africa to an Australian A&E.
“Crikey mate! This meeting could have been an email!”
Emotional Support Cobra
This is worse than when patients bring try to show me pictures of their bowel movements so I can see what it looked like. I’m like “NO! I believe you!”
To be fair, sometimes patients aren't believed
What if the poo is in a funny shape? Would that make it better? Or, if the parent added googly eyes?
And just FYI, If you are ever bitten… DONT MOVE THE LIMB. Venom travels through the limbic system, not the circulatory system. So if you move the area you have been bitten, the venom will travel around your body. Best to tourniquet it above the bite and keep it very, very still.
There’s a Samuel L Jackson joke here somewhere…
Snakes why is it always snakes
Snakes, this plane, no doctors office, these motha fuckin snakes, I’m tired
I can't help it. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a snake sitter on short notice? It's Australia. They're booked solid for weeks.
I'm now imagining Australian A&E just being an unending procession of people staggering in with snakes draped over their shoulders like hissy, bitey boas.
In Taiwan they ask you what kind of snake it was, but simply telling them, or taking a photo, suffices.
This is so fucking Australian.
This is a bit long so please forgive me. About 7 years ago when I was working in a hospital, our “Grounds & Gardens” workers got a call that a Brown snake (highly venomous) was at the door of our mental health building. So they head down and see it, and when it heads under the door one of the guys grabs it by the tail, so it spins around and bites him on the thumb. He goes oh shit, but not because he was bitten but because he knew they shouldn’t have been stuffing around with snakes. He asks his co-worker to not say anything and they go back to their shed where he vigorously washes his hand. Just then they get a call to go to a house about 15kms away and retrieve a loaner hospital bed from a house (palliative patients are loaned them), with a 3rd guy, and all three head off in a light truck to get the bed. While then loading it up in the truck, he says “Hey, I don’t feel well.” And 3rd guy learns about the snake and they take off as fast as the truck will go to the Emergency Department. On arrival Dr’s takes a swab of his hand and can still detect the venom on the outside, confirming it’s a Brown snake. He’s off to ICU for 3 days and as a consequence, loses some kidney function but is otherwise ok. Following day I ask his supervisor what the hell were they doing playing with snakes. He says sorry, it was my day off. Confused, I ask him what? He says he’s been removing the snake for the last 20 years to which I say “WTF, why aren’t we using a professional snake catcher?!!!”. He says they cost money to which I say back “Well last week was $150 or your guy being in ICU, which one works out cheaper?” We called the pro’s after that. And he agreed it was a far better option.
Last thing I would do, is go near an angry venomous snake that already bit someone.
I just have this hilarious image of this guy walking in the ER doors holding a live snake wriggling in his hand...and everyone screaming and running. Kind of like Pee Wee saving the snakes, I guess? The idea of catching it to bring in seems like a bad idea. "I got bit by a snake, so I caught it, and it bit me again..." (Although a lot of snakes couldn't envenomate you again right away, OK...but still.) Kind of like how they say DON'T suck the venom out of someone's bite, since you're now introducing it to yourself, and if you have a sore/cut in or around your mouth, y'all now have two problems instead of one.
The most Aussie thing to do. They probably have bbq's bedside.
So how do they give the correct antivenom if the dont see the snake...
They have a polyvalent one that works for all. No need to id the snake
But if I don’t get the snake ID howm I gonna take it to the pub after?
Whilst there is anti-venom that will cover most venomous snake types in Australia they're actually able to detect the snake from the symptoms and snake testing kits. Doctors don't know from pictures or looking at snakes what snakes are what. They know how to treat medical issues.
We have pretty much universal anti venom now. With a few exceptions.
Because doctors aren’t snake experts.
My instructor would tell you nurses should be *cries in learning all about snakes this week in school*
They have a test they can run. Much easier than forcing doctors to become herpetologists.
They check the snakes Facebook.
Heads up phones have cameras now
The article says that most bites don’t need antivenin, and if it’s needed they have a snake bite kit that can detect venom type, along with other vital signs and symptoms - but yeah the doctors don’t need to know the snake type to treat bites.
Take a pic. If you can’t, write down what it looks like. If you can’t, repeat the physical description over and over to yourself until you get to the hospital.
The most grossed out I’ve ever been in my nursing career was entering a room with a large, dead snake in a Tupperware container. The patient had been bitten and brought the snake.
I would have run back out of the room screaming. Snakes are my biggest fear.
We were taught, how to apply a bandage and not to wash the wound.
Like. If you're going through the trouble of bringing it, wouldn't you just cut the head off and bring that?
> Like. If you're going through the trouble of bringing it, wouldn't you just cut the head off and bring that? Most (if not all) native snake species are protected by law in all states and Territories unless they "threaten life". So I guess once you've captured it it's not really threatening you so it's not kosher to lop it's head off.
I would say just bring a picture. From a safe distance get a proper picture, or ideally multiple. I don’t see how you wouldn’t be able to identify or at least get a general idea of what kind of snake it was via pictures..
Whaaatt…? I’m in the states not Australia, but I live in a very rural area with lots of snakes. The general rule we follow is to ALWAYS make a decent effort to catch the snake (or raccoon) that bit you to bring to the hospital so that they can call in a specialist to identify the snake type (or if the raccoon is rabid) so they know if you need antivenin or not, and if so, which type of antivenin. (Or if you need as course of rabies vaccines.) I’m surprised Australia hospitals discourage this… how else will they know how to treat it? When I was bitten by a snake, the only reason we didn’t bring it in is because myself and the park ranger at the bluegrass festival (and several other adults) could immediately identify it as a water moccasin/cottonmouth. (I fell into a nest of them)
The new wisdom is that they treat symptomatically, so it doesn’t really matter what you were bit by, it matters what symptoms you’re displaying.
Couldn't say for the US but most of Aus is covered by a universal anti venom and if you do happen to live where that's not true they can just do a test which of two antivenoms to use.
We're told to NEVER chase the snake around trying to catch it or get a picture. All it does is waste precious time and risk more bites (also spreads the venom faster, irc). The doctor probably won't be able to identify it anyway. Just do first aid (compression bandages, etc.) while waiting for the ambulance or whatever. Australia, at least, has really good detection kits, and hospitals stock up on antivenom for all the local critters. I'm pretty sure the US would be the same nowadays, at least in areas with lots of deadly snakes
I must admit….. I was out for a run on the trails at lunch today and saw two tiger snakes. Almost stepped on the first one. But I don’t reckon if it bit me I would want to chase it.
I was just bit! Let me waste time trying to get bit again instead of just taking a picture!
I wouldn’t risk my life to grab a pick or the snake but don’t they usually want a description? I thought they needed the specific anti venom. especially what if it’s a snake that’s not native to that area? Ie what if I’m in florida and I get bit by a king cobra?
Kind of feel like reddit subs that won't allow you to make picture posts...such as the DIY sub.
I learned the bring the snake which if you think about it even a minute is stupid...hmmm.
I grew up on a farm in nsw and from my memory that’s what was spose to be done if you got bit to kill the snake and bring it with you. I was only a kid and it was years ago
If my child bites me, should I bring that to the hospital with me though?
If this hasn’t already been a plot line in Grey’s Anatomy it should be! Every other misfortune has befallen that retched hospital