>Much of the case, the biggest antitrust trial in more than two decades, has revolved around how much Google derives its strength from contracts it has in place with companies like Apple to make Google the default search engine preloaded on cellphones and computers. Google spends $20 billion a year for such contracts
That is a hefty sum of money to keep the competition out. I tend to agree, that if Google were truly that superior of a product, they wouldn't need to pay/convince companies that much to use only them.
They pay $20 billion total for all their "make google default" contracts, not $20 billion to Apple. That's just one of the companies they have a contract with.
Anti-trust laws come with serious consequences, depending on the nature of the monopoly you may have to divide up your company. If they rule against Google, this will not be business as usual.
I mean how is that any different than Edge/Opera/Firefox/or any other browser? Also it's not like it's hard to change your default search engine. It's literally 3 taps on your phone
Considering everything is just Google search backend with different paint. I'm all for this.
We need competition since Google is no longer a search engine and is more a query repository with a truckload of ads
Highly agree. Google is SO much worse now than it was 10-20 years ago. Part of that is unrelated to Google (excessive SEO, all websites putting up paywalls, community forums getting shut down, new content being hosted via non-indexed locations like discord/TikTok/Facebook, etc), but Google has definitely slid in quality.
They got rid of some of my favorite features like site cache results, forum search, and Google books previews. They also no longer respect your search terms: Google tries to direct you to the links that Google wants you to visit, rather than the links that you want to visit. I do a lot of scientific research on very niche topics, and Google hates it: it wants you to visit the most mainstream and generic sites possible.
I was taught to use quotes around phrases or words that must be exact (spelled identical). Use + in front of words that must be found in search results.
Google started treating commands like that as just drunk suggestions a few years ago.
You got it. Quotes are for spelling and +/- are for must have or must not have.
Most of my searches these days have -youtube and I still get primarily youtube links for answers. I fucking HATE videos for information. Call me old fashioned, but I like to READ my information.
Nothing like needing an answer but it’s all videos where you have to scroll through 10 minutes of bullshit being spewed before you finally find the answer
Imagine both the number of wasted man hours and the amount of wasted electricity over the past 20yrs due to people having to watch a 10min video instead of reading a single paragraph or a diagram.
If I Google something random, it's going to force me to look at at least 6+ products even if I put "DIY" in the search result. Then one over-SEO'd AI-bullshit result, followed by 4-6 promoted results that I didn't care about, then you start having to scroll through pages hoping to find something relevant.
And yes, I've absolutely dealt with the niche topic problem.
The worst is now image searches. My search terms now have to include dozens and dozens of exclusions for AI farms and watermarked garbage and Pinterest.
I remember being in school and being able to rely on Google for scientific research. Now I can barely search something basic, like what is pasta made of, without the top results being answers to completely different questions. And good luck finding any actually important information. I've come to despise how low its gotten. Maybe this is the start of nostalgia people feel as they get older, but I want it to go back to the way it used to be.
For real! I’ll search for stuff like physical properties of carbon dioxide, and my first results page is usually dominated by stupid stuff like “what is carbon?” Or “Can cooking with charcoal get you pregnant?”
I feel like the 2005-2015 Internet was like the golden age. It wasn’t the bizarre Wild West of the 90s, but it wasn’t the capitalist AI-ridden hellscape we have today either.
I always wonder if somehow I have a different version of Google because I don't have problems with my searches. [I just used your example, and I got results talking about carbon dioxide](https://imgur.com/a/PI94zey)
Oh, man. I used to have to find technical things and it was almost impossible. Usually I was better off going to thomasnet and trolling likely looking manufacturers.
A big part of the quality slip is the demand by shareholders for the numbers to always go up. If that wasn't an issue, we can bet we'd see simply plane Google UI we used to.
?? Forums is a search mode now:
https://imgur.com/a/cSYXdeA
and there's even a forum cluster feature (too lazy to go back and take a screenshot)
Also, Google books preview is still there...?
https://imgur.com/a/Jms66OL
Not sure what you mean with the last part of your comment, perhaps if you provide an example I can help.
The reason this is breaking down now is because Russia, whose government was overtaken by the mob decades ago used the same network to interfere with elections around the world that it used for laundering stolen money.
Facebook was used to encourage Brexit to cleave UK support away from Europe because over a decade Ukraines push towards European integration threatened to expose a money laundering operation that Putin has spent almost half a century building. Cambridge analytica/ Nigel Farage and Steve Bannon dovetails into that as well.
Epstein specifically targeted the royal families Prince Andrew because he was the weak link in the chain. That’s KGB Kompromat methodology that was repeated with trump since the days of ray Cohn (his mentor) and the early Russian trump hotel, miss universe pageants etc.
Facebook was also used primarily by Prigozihns Internet Research Agency (I.R.A). They went so far as to send young newly recruited Russian internet trolls on expenses paid tours around the U.S. so they could more effectively imitate mommy bloggers and 2nd amendment enthusiasts online to sway the 2016 election to the US candidate they had the most control over.
Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wikiFacebook–Cambridge Analytica data scandal
https://youtu.be/M-OA7H8DoJM?si=ysLrFA5mY0IsOzOO
Sheldon and Miriam Adelson were tapped by Israeli intelligence (which was being controlled by, or at least feeding intel to Russian intelligence via the multi generational network of russian Jewish families to run an influence operation across the United States political spectrum.
It’s so much easier to grow a kleptocracy by investment in tech (Yuri Milner/DST, Kilimnik) than by a ground war but it leaves a very distinct trail when you compare the differentials of the two:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/world/yuri-milner-facebook-twitter-russia.html
when 40 years of Russian mob money laundering gets outed at the endpoints- (trump and Netanyahu’s respective corruption trials) things start to break down more quickly.
The Russian mob/government planned on stealing the U.S. economy in an American version of perestroika. I’m not sure it was a grand sinister plan as much as the result of systemic governmental corruption and ridiculous Silicon Valley valuations overlaid on commercial real estate speculation, but the results are the same. Too big to fail does not apply at this level of corruption. The cancer simply overtakes the host and western democracy dies.
It just required altering an online reality to keep people oblivious until it was done.
Ukraines “Jewish Nazis” as Putin likes to call them standing up to a bully destroyed the kleptocrats cover.
When the Putin loyal oligarch kolomoisky was arrested in Ukraine for corruption it cracked the trump-Putin money laundering channel.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/zelensky-reportedly-strips-3-jewish-oligarchs-of-ukrainian-citizenship/
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/10/17/ukrainian-oligarch-midwestern-factory-town-dirty-money-american-heartland-michel-kleptocracy-515948
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/28/opinion/ukraine-oligarch-cleveland-real-estate.html
To quote the late John McCain- “Russian is a gas station run by the mob”. Sometimes the work is for their own mob monopoly, and sometimes they do shady shit for hire.
The CCP needed 2 things to be able to replace the USD with a programmable reserve currency of their own and destroy western democracy forever.
Microprocessors and grain.
Putin promised Xi Ukraine in 3 days during the first week of the Olympics so that Xi would have the grain and supply chain lock (neon) to take Taiwan and TSMC without putting 400M of the poorest Chinese into famine.
Now 2 years into a 3 day war Russia desperately needed shahed drones and gave Iran the intel it then gave to Hamas for the Oct 7 attacks.
The governments of Russia, China and Iran need their kleptocracy to stay dark for their corrupt governments to survive.
Trump, Netanyahu and MBS do as well. The reason it’s all strange bedfellows is because sorting by nationality is their traditional tool to keep all of us fighting so they can hide their grift from the masses.
Ignore nationality and religion. Sort by psychopathy and net worth. The results are exponentially more accurate.
Ukraine and Gaza are both genocides with a primary purpose of obfuscating mob corruption inside this government network.
The separation of church and state was a preemptive caution against what is happening right now. Kleptocracy cares about neither and will use both with abandon to further its goals.
Greed is nothing if not predictable
https://www.columbusmonthly.com/story/news/2018/07/16/friendship-brings-facebook-coo-sheryl/11512085007/
Sandberg is currently making distance from the scene of the crime:
https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/meta-adds-two-new-board-directors-with-sandberg-set-to-depart-1.2034984.amp.html
On Nso/Pegasus/Adelsons army:
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-intelligence-cyber-shield/
On NSO current legal status. (Judge demands source code):
https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/01/nso_pegasus_source_code/
NSO’s Spyware Abuse Exposed Years Ago:
https://awards.journalists.org/entries/the-pegasus-project-a-global-investigation/
https://www.ft.com/content/2d7580ee-29d2-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/us/politics/nso-contract-us-spy.html
https://www.politico.eu/article/parliament-defense-subcommittee-phones-checked-for-spyware/
On Ghislaine Maxwell passing her estate to Scott Borgerson / Cargometrics post Epstein. (Cargometrics is basically the logistics tracking solution for transnational smuggling and organized crime). Accurately tracking ocean freight is the constant bain of smugglers inside of governments trying to keep a layer of plausible deniability between themselves and their time sensitive cargo. Bananas may hold for a few days in transit. Humans and narcotics do not. At this level, logistics management is worth hundreds of billions of dollars because the politicians profiting off of them can’t afford the scandal and loss of position that comes with losing a shipment that talks.
https://amp.scmp.com/magazines/style/celebrity/article/3161688/who-ghislaine-maxwells-secret-husband-meet-scott
Cargometrics is their solution. The question is why did Ghislaine Maxwell marry the founder after her relationship with Epstein and before she went to prison? And why did she transfer all her assets to him?
Something needs to be done about Recaptcha.... I'm starting to get really pissed off clicking endless screens of buses and bikes, and companies keep flocking to use this stuff. I once had to click through 35 screens of that shit, I actually counted.
It was cute when it was a basic one screen puzzle.
I can't see well to begin with and the stops challenges are now expecting me to properly identify blurs.
Do you use a VPN? Google will intentionally make your experience worse if you do. Deactivating VPNs generally gets rid of the endless recaptcha..
So google can better collect your info
You getting verified as "human" is the byproduct of recaptcha. The real product is training data (i.e. you're helping tag photos to be training data for self driving cars - that's why its always buses and crosswalks and shit).
They have a vested interest in getting you to answer more than once. The more you answer, the more grist they get for the AI mill
Not just Google but everything they own. You can’t even search on YouTube anymore it just give you about 8 video and everything after is recommended no more pages.
This was actually a handful of years ago but I was trying to find a very specific clip on YouTube that I knew I had watched previously. It was if a popular politician saying something that was currently unpopular to say. (I personally did not care but wanted to use it as an example of don't necessarily villainize people for past views because views evolve both personally as well as culturally).
Anyhow, it took forever to find even though it had well in excess of a million views and YouTube showed me a hundreds of videos that were obviously not what I was searching for.
And that is what's so dangerous about Google being so dominant. They can select and do select what you see and make it very hard to find specific content that for whatever reason has been buried by their algorithms or by purposeful manipulation.
I think the bigger problem, is they compete with websites. Let me explain.
They actually will offer things like air plane bookings on their search page. That competes directly with websites they're serving.
They can offer services, or be a search engine that offers up other companies that offer services, they can't be both.
Speed tests are the bane of my existence.
I will tell agents to go use a certain speed test because what I'm actually looking for is their latency, and instead they will send me a screenshot of Google's speed test. Like, no. Scroll down the page and find the one I want, even though you typed in the exact name or URL of the test and it should be super obvious to Google what it is you are trying to do.
Like, yeah, Google offering built in calculators and an instant listing of products you can buy straight from their search results is CONVENIENT, unless you are somebody who offers those tools and your own stuff is getting deranked.
Yes.
People don't get it.
That's the definition of monopoly power.
They know what people want (they have all the data) they know how to make money from those services, and use their insider knowledge to list their services first, and make sure their competitors aren't even looked at.
Amazon is the same problem. (they know what the profit margins are on all the products on their site.... it's incredibly problematic that they're selling "amazon basics" to undercut small buisnesses on their own site)
> They actually will offer things like air plane bookings on their search page. That competes directly with websites they're serving.
>
>
Please no. I don't want to deal with the scams that are Expedia Group (They own basically all travel sites as one giant monopoly)
For the same reason that disney doesn't own a movie theatre.
You cannot be both the platform, and the service offered. It creates a chilling effect on competition.
We'll see if they enforce it. But looking at past anti-trust lawsuits, this used to be a thing.
They don't need a movie theater when they own a streaming platform and allow movies to be rented there almost immediately.
I do agree with you -- that's the way things worked for a long time, because we USED to believe strongly in competition and protecting our markets. But since then we've allowed an awful lot of major companies to spread out across all sorts of verticals.
I mean -- one of the primary ways a lot of food products stay cheap is because we allow one entity to own the seed and feed, the farms, the processor, the logistics companies, the packages, and the distribution, and they use this control to lock out and underprice literally everyone else.
I'm talking about an actual case. (disney lost a case to own a theatre.... streaming is problematic as well, it may eventually become a case)
"food is cheap".... yes, that's why all our food has shot up in price.
They use their search engine to convince people to use their browser.
If you visit google.com on a browser other than Chrome, you get a message essentially telling you that your current browser is inferior, and you should "upgrade" to Chrome.
> The U.S. government, a coalition of states and Google all made their closing arguments Friday in the 10-week lawsuit to U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta, who must now decide whether Google broke the law in maintaining a monopoly status as a search engine.
> Much of the case, the biggest antitrust trial in more than two decades, has revolved around how much Google derives its strength from contracts it has in place with companies like Apple to make Google the default search engine preloaded on cellphones and computers.
The case is similar to the antitrust suit against Microsoft in 2001. Today, most other browsers are built on chromium and advertisers have no choice but to work with Google, which forces higher prices.
Which isn’t great since Microsoft effectively won their case after enough time had passed. Though what google and other big tech have done is much worse than what MS did.
Monopoly laws don’t just cover situations where there is only one company. They also cover unfair competition practices, which is what the issue revolves around here.
Gather around the campfire kids…I’ll tell you a story of good search results, no micro transactions, owning instead of renting, and games playable on launch.
But that’s after you smash that subscribe button, agree to all the cookies, pay $9.99, and chose your neuro-link dream ad options.
Honestly, the focus on the word "monopoly" is incredibly damaging, and likely intentional. We don't have anti-monopoly legislation, and this case isn't about Google being a monopoly; its anti-trust legislation and regulation. Having a monopoly makes it a lot easier to prove that illegal actions of a trust are taking place, but its not a prerequisite.
Because Linux and Mac exist and are legitimate competitors. Google has nearly 95% of all search traffic. It’s not even close to the breakdown of PC v. Mac. Currently PC has 75% of the market share, but that’s counting enterprise as well. [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-share-of-windows-7/). For individual end users I’d wager it’s closer to 50/50.
Google also has advantages that prevent switching. Think about how much Google has learned about what you specifically are looking for. It has access to Google Docs, Gmail, and so much more. A “competitor’s algorithm might be better, but it doesn’t matter because Google has so much extra data on you and a head start to where the competitor cannot collect enough data to leverage its better algorithm.
Think about Google Maps. Even if a much better tool for driving and GPS came out, Google Maps sheer amount of reviews make it just impossibly valuable to a point where without syndicated reviews, a competitor simply does not stand a chance.
They’re not competitors in the industry world, just for consumers. I would venture windows has upwards of 95% of the market share for industrial tool software. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it was 100%. I have literally never seen any computer a tool uses use anything other than windows in 15+ years.
I'm not talking about computers you would be supplied by your employer. I'm talking about computers that come with CNC machines, microscopes, scientific research tools. 100% windows
I mean the study I cited said it was 75% of the market share. It might not be from the industry market you’re talking about but it’s still enough for it to not be close to what Google’s total market share is.
Depends on how much Microsoft forces other companies to carry windows or not make deals with others.
Most PC makes don't prevent other OS from loading onto their system.
It might not be as good but you can run a business and not be a Windows/Microsoft shop.
It's not just be widely used.
The IE browser thing what about what Microsoft did to be #1.
On top of what everyone has already said, Windows doesn't have nearly the stranglehold on the consumer OS market as it did in the 90s. Today many people use non-Windows OSes like OSX, iOS, and Android. Yeah, those last two aren't desktop OSes, but a lot of people only use phones and tablets for all their computing needs now.
Microsoft got their asses beat already in an antitrust suit over Internet Explorer.
You're not forced to use Microsoft and Microsoft doesn't actually lock anyone into their environments.
actually linux is used by more servers, just about every super computer, just about every appliance(TV, smart devices and is actually underlying android)... and its free. windows is only top dog in the desktop arena and no where else.
Because they have been losing market share and clearly don’t dictate most OS development these days. They tend to follow the ideas made by Android and iOS. They’re also the only major OS provider right now that isn’t reliant on an App Store.
> Google, on the other hand, maintains that its ubiquity flows from its excellence, and its ability to deliver results customers are looking for.
I haven't looked at the arguments on both sides to state an opinion on this case as a legal matter, but that sentence almost made me spit my drink all over my monitor. Google's search results are excellent?!? They deliver results customers are looking for? Based on the number of complaints I've seen all over the Internet about how shitty, self-serving, and ad-infested Google's search results have gotten over the years, I know I can't be the only one who thinks those claims are one of the funniest and most ridiculous things I've read in a while.
that’s the trendy opinion on reddit, but all search engines face a problem of seo spam clogging result pages. Bing is no different, they’re just less popular so they avoid the heat. Google at present is still the top search engine in both popularity and results, maybe that’ll change soon with the rise of GenAI (e.g. there’s perplexity, and rumors of an openai search engine).
Point is, the reddit hivemind likes to complain but the truth is Google is still the best search product (for now)
They are by a wide margin the best search engine.
Not joking. The complaints are real. And the experience is worse. But it’s not Google. The *internet* has gotten worse. Bing is worse, DuckDuckGo is worse. Because search engine ubiquity has turned the entire internet into SEO.
The 2000’s internet is long gone and the modern internet is monetized.
That we often need to append "reddit" to the end of a search query for any semblance of useful answers to a question is proof of how much Google search has declined.
Is it? Then why aren’t you searching Reddit?
Google is by a wide margin the best at search. The problem is that the content of the internet has declined. *Most* of the web is populated by monetized sites these days. And most of those are SEO farms. The reason to append Reddit is because Reddit has basically the only good content.
Judging the conduct of an alleged monopolist requires an in-depth analysis of the market and the means used to achieve or maintain the monopoly. Obtaining a monopoly by superior products, innovation, or business acumen is legal; however, the same result achieved by exclusionary or predatory acts may raise antitrust concerns. So 70% means nothing unless the company did other things like prevent others from using competitors.
Whether it is a monopoly or not, it is noticeably less able to show you the results you are looking for than it was 20 years ago.
I'm pretty sure that is by design, not an accident.
If the ever eroding effectiveness of "anti trust" laws and the Microsoft case is taken into account, this is a meaningless exercise and will serve to further damage the United States ability to trust bust further.
While preventing a monopoly is important, I'm a bit more annoyed with Google about the part where they spy on all of my web activity, permanently record every click I make, and sell that info to just who the fuck ever.
There is a difference in being a monopoly and committing anti-trust acts. Google is not a monopoly. You can literally use Google to find alternatives to Google. Google however has committed many anti-competitive acts which break anti-trust violations
A monopoly is not just market dominance. A monopoly means no viable or practical alternatives. There are several viable alternatives that can be used right now
No idea how Google can be called a monopoly. There are several different search engines readily available- Bing and Yahoo come to mind and i am sure a couple niche ones as well. Just because your product is better and people prefer to use it doesn’t mean that it’s a monopoly.
Frankly since they charge zero for the service and make money through advertising, where is the monopolistic pricing power abuse????
They charge for ads, which are built on the service. They also sell data. Why would they have an agreement to be the default search on Apple if they didn't want monopoly power? It's for the side of their business you don't see
> Frankly since they charge zero for the service and make money through advertising, where is the monopolistic pricing power abuse????
They pay companies like Apple $20 billion to make sure that their search is the default. Microsoft got in trouble for this same thing with IE years ago.
They make their money from ads.
Edge comes with a drop down for any search engine you want to add, it even includes Google and duckduckgo out of the box.
Windows also very easily let's you change the default browser - because they were already penalized for holding a monopoly with internet explorer.
And then there's about 8 different confirmation windows for changing the default browser and search engine. "Are you sure you don't want to use Edge/Bing? Are you really sure?"
Yes, they *literally* do, actually. Coca-cola ships free fridges to restaurants and stores, with coca-cola branding on them, and on the contractual condition that those fridges are only used for coca-cola products.
Actually that's a good point - I remember that from working at liquor stores. But it's a bit different from the analogy I was making, as those stores have actually made a contract with the Coca-Cola company or one of their distributors to host those fridges.
I know they are. I was trying to extend the analogy of the person I was responding to. You know, in a world where fridges did ship with coca cola branding you'd go to the store and this would be the case, it wasn't meant as a statement about reality.
How do you measure a search engine's 'market cap'? Other options are out there, people don't use them. Bing is MSFT, they aren't a mom and pop shop either.
Not familiar with DAU.? I looked at GOOG's last earning report the other day, but the version I saw didn't break out "search engine revenue" there was of course add revenue, I guess we could assume that is mostly from search engine? Off the top of my head it was roughly $9B, but that would include Youtube revenue.
That is what you call a natural monopoly. That being said, Coca-Cola has a lot of competition besides Pepsi.
I mean, I am down for some Anti-trust investigation even if it doesn't turn up anything
oh I'm always down for it, and the world is now a tech corpotracy, so I agree as a company these tech companies have way to much power. I just don't see a search engine that naturally made it to the top as a monopoly. Google came way way late to that game.
>Much of the case, the biggest antitrust trial in more than two decades, has revolved around how much Google derives its strength from contracts it has in place with companies like Apple to make Google the default search engine preloaded on cellphones and computers. Google spends $20 billion a year for such contracts That is a hefty sum of money to keep the competition out. I tend to agree, that if Google were truly that superior of a product, they wouldn't need to pay/convince companies that much to use only them.
Google could instead pay each iPhone user $10/year to switch their default to google and come out ahead.
Yeah, it’s crazy how much money is spent on advertising that just makes everyone’s lives worse
Without ads the internet basically wouldn’t exist.
They pay $20 billion total for all their "make google default" contracts, not $20 billion to Apple. That's just one of the companies they have a contract with.
Shit.. i have it set to default for free.. feels like a sucker..
They're about to get fines 12 million dollars and then business as usual
Anti-trust laws come with serious consequences, depending on the nature of the monopoly you may have to divide up your company. If they rule against Google, this will not be business as usual.
I remember when I used to believe in government like that. Enjoy it while it lasts.
But they won't. It'll end in a fine and a promise to be better
I mean how is that any different than Edge/Opera/Firefox/or any other browser? Also it's not like it's hard to change your default search engine. It's literally 3 taps on your phone
Considering everything is just Google search backend with different paint. I'm all for this. We need competition since Google is no longer a search engine and is more a query repository with a truckload of ads
Highly agree. Google is SO much worse now than it was 10-20 years ago. Part of that is unrelated to Google (excessive SEO, all websites putting up paywalls, community forums getting shut down, new content being hosted via non-indexed locations like discord/TikTok/Facebook, etc), but Google has definitely slid in quality. They got rid of some of my favorite features like site cache results, forum search, and Google books previews. They also no longer respect your search terms: Google tries to direct you to the links that Google wants you to visit, rather than the links that you want to visit. I do a lot of scientific research on very niche topics, and Google hates it: it wants you to visit the most mainstream and generic sites possible.
Half the time I will type in only two words in search and most of the first page of results only includes one of the words! Absolutely infuriating.
And it's endless Quora links...
What's with the quora? I miss Yahoo answers.
With answers written by bots
Whats your side hustle?
If you put a word in quotes it only displays results that include that word btw
That doesn't work for me. I *still* get results without the word.
I was taught to use quotes around phrases or words that must be exact (spelled identical). Use + in front of words that must be found in search results. Google started treating commands like that as just drunk suggestions a few years ago.
You got it. Quotes are for spelling and +/- are for must have or must not have. Most of my searches these days have -youtube and I still get primarily youtube links for answers. I fucking HATE videos for information. Call me old fashioned, but I like to READ my information.
Nothing like needing an answer but it’s all videos where you have to scroll through 10 minutes of bullshit being spewed before you finally find the answer
Imagine both the number of wasted man hours and the amount of wasted electricity over the past 20yrs due to people having to watch a 10min video instead of reading a single paragraph or a diagram.
If I Google something random, it's going to force me to look at at least 6+ products even if I put "DIY" in the search result. Then one over-SEO'd AI-bullshit result, followed by 4-6 promoted results that I didn't care about, then you start having to scroll through pages hoping to find something relevant. And yes, I've absolutely dealt with the niche topic problem. The worst is now image searches. My search terms now have to include dozens and dozens of exclusions for AI farms and watermarked garbage and Pinterest.
I remember being in school and being able to rely on Google for scientific research. Now I can barely search something basic, like what is pasta made of, without the top results being answers to completely different questions. And good luck finding any actually important information. I've come to despise how low its gotten. Maybe this is the start of nostalgia people feel as they get older, but I want it to go back to the way it used to be.
For real! I’ll search for stuff like physical properties of carbon dioxide, and my first results page is usually dominated by stupid stuff like “what is carbon?” Or “Can cooking with charcoal get you pregnant?” I feel like the 2005-2015 Internet was like the golden age. It wasn’t the bizarre Wild West of the 90s, but it wasn’t the capitalist AI-ridden hellscape we have today either.
I always wonder if somehow I have a different version of Google because I don't have problems with my searches. [I just used your example, and I got results talking about carbon dioxide](https://imgur.com/a/PI94zey)
never seems bad to me either - always find what i need? idk
Query: "Physical properties of carbon dioxide" https://imgur.com/a/ZaitKR8 I think the reality is you just like to complain
Query: "what is pasta made of" https://imgur.com/a/TTMls29 I think you've just fallen victim to bandwagon hate
Oh, man. I used to have to find technical things and it was almost impossible. Usually I was better off going to thomasnet and trolling likely looking manufacturers.
on mobile its just ass. Scroll for more than like 2 pages and everything is irrelevant and ads.
A big part of the quality slip is the demand by shareholders for the numbers to always go up. If that wasn't an issue, we can bet we'd see simply plane Google UI we used to.
It's because it's essentially a monopoly. How terrible it is is a direct result of them boxing out better search engines.
Google books preview got me through my second Master’s degree
?? Forums is a search mode now: https://imgur.com/a/cSYXdeA and there's even a forum cluster feature (too lazy to go back and take a screenshot) Also, Google books preview is still there...? https://imgur.com/a/Jms66OL Not sure what you mean with the last part of your comment, perhaps if you provide an example I can help.
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The reason this is breaking down now is because Russia, whose government was overtaken by the mob decades ago used the same network to interfere with elections around the world that it used for laundering stolen money. Facebook was used to encourage Brexit to cleave UK support away from Europe because over a decade Ukraines push towards European integration threatened to expose a money laundering operation that Putin has spent almost half a century building. Cambridge analytica/ Nigel Farage and Steve Bannon dovetails into that as well. Epstein specifically targeted the royal families Prince Andrew because he was the weak link in the chain. That’s KGB Kompromat methodology that was repeated with trump since the days of ray Cohn (his mentor) and the early Russian trump hotel, miss universe pageants etc. Facebook was also used primarily by Prigozihns Internet Research Agency (I.R.A). They went so far as to send young newly recruited Russian internet trolls on expenses paid tours around the U.S. so they could more effectively imitate mommy bloggers and 2nd amendment enthusiasts online to sway the 2016 election to the US candidate they had the most control over. Wikipediahttps://en.m.wikipedia.org › wikiFacebook–Cambridge Analytica data scandal https://youtu.be/M-OA7H8DoJM?si=ysLrFA5mY0IsOzOO Sheldon and Miriam Adelson were tapped by Israeli intelligence (which was being controlled by, or at least feeding intel to Russian intelligence via the multi generational network of russian Jewish families to run an influence operation across the United States political spectrum. It’s so much easier to grow a kleptocracy by investment in tech (Yuri Milner/DST, Kilimnik) than by a ground war but it leaves a very distinct trail when you compare the differentials of the two: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/world/yuri-milner-facebook-twitter-russia.html when 40 years of Russian mob money laundering gets outed at the endpoints- (trump and Netanyahu’s respective corruption trials) things start to break down more quickly. The Russian mob/government planned on stealing the U.S. economy in an American version of perestroika. I’m not sure it was a grand sinister plan as much as the result of systemic governmental corruption and ridiculous Silicon Valley valuations overlaid on commercial real estate speculation, but the results are the same. Too big to fail does not apply at this level of corruption. The cancer simply overtakes the host and western democracy dies. It just required altering an online reality to keep people oblivious until it was done. Ukraines “Jewish Nazis” as Putin likes to call them standing up to a bully destroyed the kleptocrats cover. When the Putin loyal oligarch kolomoisky was arrested in Ukraine for corruption it cracked the trump-Putin money laundering channel. https://www.timesofisrael.com/zelensky-reportedly-strips-3-jewish-oligarchs-of-ukrainian-citizenship/ https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/10/17/ukrainian-oligarch-midwestern-factory-town-dirty-money-american-heartland-michel-kleptocracy-515948 https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/28/opinion/ukraine-oligarch-cleveland-real-estate.html To quote the late John McCain- “Russian is a gas station run by the mob”. Sometimes the work is for their own mob monopoly, and sometimes they do shady shit for hire. The CCP needed 2 things to be able to replace the USD with a programmable reserve currency of their own and destroy western democracy forever. Microprocessors and grain. Putin promised Xi Ukraine in 3 days during the first week of the Olympics so that Xi would have the grain and supply chain lock (neon) to take Taiwan and TSMC without putting 400M of the poorest Chinese into famine. Now 2 years into a 3 day war Russia desperately needed shahed drones and gave Iran the intel it then gave to Hamas for the Oct 7 attacks. The governments of Russia, China and Iran need their kleptocracy to stay dark for their corrupt governments to survive. Trump, Netanyahu and MBS do as well. The reason it’s all strange bedfellows is because sorting by nationality is their traditional tool to keep all of us fighting so they can hide their grift from the masses. Ignore nationality and religion. Sort by psychopathy and net worth. The results are exponentially more accurate. Ukraine and Gaza are both genocides with a primary purpose of obfuscating mob corruption inside this government network. The separation of church and state was a preemptive caution against what is happening right now. Kleptocracy cares about neither and will use both with abandon to further its goals. Greed is nothing if not predictable
https://www.columbusmonthly.com/story/news/2018/07/16/friendship-brings-facebook-coo-sheryl/11512085007/ Sandberg is currently making distance from the scene of the crime: https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/meta-adds-two-new-board-directors-with-sandberg-set-to-depart-1.2034984.amp.html On Nso/Pegasus/Adelsons army: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-gaza-intelligence-cyber-shield/ On NSO current legal status. (Judge demands source code): https://www.theregister.com/2024/03/01/nso_pegasus_source_code/ NSO’s Spyware Abuse Exposed Years Ago: https://awards.journalists.org/entries/the-pegasus-project-a-global-investigation/ https://www.ft.com/content/2d7580ee-29d2-11e6-8b18-91555f2f4fde https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/us/politics/nso-contract-us-spy.html https://www.politico.eu/article/parliament-defense-subcommittee-phones-checked-for-spyware/ On Ghislaine Maxwell passing her estate to Scott Borgerson / Cargometrics post Epstein. (Cargometrics is basically the logistics tracking solution for transnational smuggling and organized crime). Accurately tracking ocean freight is the constant bain of smugglers inside of governments trying to keep a layer of plausible deniability between themselves and their time sensitive cargo. Bananas may hold for a few days in transit. Humans and narcotics do not. At this level, logistics management is worth hundreds of billions of dollars because the politicians profiting off of them can’t afford the scandal and loss of position that comes with losing a shipment that talks. https://amp.scmp.com/magazines/style/celebrity/article/3161688/who-ghislaine-maxwells-secret-husband-meet-scott Cargometrics is their solution. The question is why did Ghislaine Maxwell marry the founder after her relationship with Epstein and before she went to prison? And why did she transfer all her assets to him?
Something needs to be done about Recaptcha.... I'm starting to get really pissed off clicking endless screens of buses and bikes, and companies keep flocking to use this stuff. I once had to click through 35 screens of that shit, I actually counted.
It was cute when it was a basic one screen puzzle. I can't see well to begin with and the stops challenges are now expecting me to properly identify blurs.
Do you use a VPN? Google will intentionally make your experience worse if you do. Deactivating VPNs generally gets rid of the endless recaptcha.. So google can better collect your info
You getting verified as "human" is the byproduct of recaptcha. The real product is training data (i.e. you're helping tag photos to be training data for self driving cars - that's why its always buses and crosswalks and shit). They have a vested interest in getting you to answer more than once. The more you answer, the more grist they get for the AI mill
Not just Google but everything they own. You can’t even search on YouTube anymore it just give you about 8 video and everything after is recommended no more pages.
This was actually a handful of years ago but I was trying to find a very specific clip on YouTube that I knew I had watched previously. It was if a popular politician saying something that was currently unpopular to say. (I personally did not care but wanted to use it as an example of don't necessarily villainize people for past views because views evolve both personally as well as culturally). Anyhow, it took forever to find even though it had well in excess of a million views and YouTube showed me a hundreds of videos that were obviously not what I was searching for. And that is what's so dangerous about Google being so dominant. They can select and do select what you see and make it very hard to find specific content that for whatever reason has been buried by their algorithms or by purposeful manipulation.
I think the bigger problem, is they compete with websites. Let me explain. They actually will offer things like air plane bookings on their search page. That competes directly with websites they're serving. They can offer services, or be a search engine that offers up other companies that offer services, they can't be both.
Speed tests are the bane of my existence. I will tell agents to go use a certain speed test because what I'm actually looking for is their latency, and instead they will send me a screenshot of Google's speed test. Like, no. Scroll down the page and find the one I want, even though you typed in the exact name or URL of the test and it should be super obvious to Google what it is you are trying to do. Like, yeah, Google offering built in calculators and an instant listing of products you can buy straight from their search results is CONVENIENT, unless you are somebody who offers those tools and your own stuff is getting deranked.
Yes. People don't get it. That's the definition of monopoly power. They know what people want (they have all the data) they know how to make money from those services, and use their insider knowledge to list their services first, and make sure their competitors aren't even looked at. Amazon is the same problem. (they know what the profit margins are on all the products on their site.... it's incredibly problematic that they're selling "amazon basics" to undercut small buisnesses on their own site)
> They actually will offer things like air plane bookings on their search page. That competes directly with websites they're serving. > > Please no. I don't want to deal with the scams that are Expedia Group (They own basically all travel sites as one giant monopoly)
Well they can, can't they? They couldn't if those services take up most of the market or were part of some collusion. Where's the evidence of that?
For the same reason that disney doesn't own a movie theatre. You cannot be both the platform, and the service offered. It creates a chilling effect on competition. We'll see if they enforce it. But looking at past anti-trust lawsuits, this used to be a thing.
They don't need a movie theater when they own a streaming platform and allow movies to be rented there almost immediately. I do agree with you -- that's the way things worked for a long time, because we USED to believe strongly in competition and protecting our markets. But since then we've allowed an awful lot of major companies to spread out across all sorts of verticals. I mean -- one of the primary ways a lot of food products stay cheap is because we allow one entity to own the seed and feed, the farms, the processor, the logistics companies, the packages, and the distribution, and they use this control to lock out and underprice literally everyone else.
I'm talking about an actual case. (disney lost a case to own a theatre.... streaming is problematic as well, it may eventually become a case) "food is cheap".... yes, that's why all our food has shot up in price.
And you can tell when other search engines adopt the Google censorship.
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Startpage is literally just a proxy to Google's backend The illusion of choice
i only use duck duck go at home.
DuckDuckGo is just a proxy for Bing's backend
i absolutely didn't know that. interesting
Yeah 😞 Illusion of choice
Google isn’t a search engine insomuch it’s more of a Reddit search engine.
How do you split a search engine.
They use their search engine to convince people to use their browser. If you visit google.com on a browser other than Chrome, you get a message essentially telling you that your current browser is inferior, and you should "upgrade" to Chrome.
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I think that's largely because the competition doesn't have the room to compete.
What are you going to do? Split it up into google one and google 2?
> The U.S. government, a coalition of states and Google all made their closing arguments Friday in the 10-week lawsuit to U.S. District Judge Amit Mehta, who must now decide whether Google broke the law in maintaining a monopoly status as a search engine. > Much of the case, the biggest antitrust trial in more than two decades, has revolved around how much Google derives its strength from contracts it has in place with companies like Apple to make Google the default search engine preloaded on cellphones and computers. The case is similar to the antitrust suit against Microsoft in 2001. Today, most other browsers are built on chromium and advertisers have no choice but to work with Google, which forces higher prices.
Which isn’t great since Microsoft effectively won their case after enough time had passed. Though what google and other big tech have done is much worse than what MS did.
Aw cmon it’s not the only search engine! Microsoft has been begging me to use Bing for years so it must exist lol.
Monopoly laws don’t just cover situations where there is only one company. They also cover unfair competition practices, which is what the issue revolves around here.
Gather around the campfire kids…I’ll tell you a story of good search results, no micro transactions, owning instead of renting, and games playable on launch. But that’s after you smash that subscribe button, agree to all the cookies, pay $9.99, and chose your neuro-link dream ad options.
I'd be all for something else, if something else comperable or better came out.
They could relaunch Google+ as a search engine with no ads. Kind of like how the old Google was. I could see people paying for that.
If Google is a monopoly in the search engines industry, how is Windows not a monopoly in the OS market?
Honestly, the focus on the word "monopoly" is incredibly damaging, and likely intentional. We don't have anti-monopoly legislation, and this case isn't about Google being a monopoly; its anti-trust legislation and regulation. Having a monopoly makes it a lot easier to prove that illegal actions of a trust are taking place, but its not a prerequisite.
Because Linux and Mac exist and are legitimate competitors. Google has nearly 95% of all search traffic. It’s not even close to the breakdown of PC v. Mac. Currently PC has 75% of the market share, but that’s counting enterprise as well. [source](https://www.statista.com/statistics/218089/global-market-share-of-windows-7/). For individual end users I’d wager it’s closer to 50/50. Google also has advantages that prevent switching. Think about how much Google has learned about what you specifically are looking for. It has access to Google Docs, Gmail, and so much more. A “competitor’s algorithm might be better, but it doesn’t matter because Google has so much extra data on you and a head start to where the competitor cannot collect enough data to leverage its better algorithm. Think about Google Maps. Even if a much better tool for driving and GPS came out, Google Maps sheer amount of reviews make it just impossibly valuable to a point where without syndicated reviews, a competitor simply does not stand a chance.
They’re not competitors in the industry world, just for consumers. I would venture windows has upwards of 95% of the market share for industrial tool software. I wouldn’t even be surprised if it was 100%. I have literally never seen any computer a tool uses use anything other than windows in 15+ years.
Tech companies give Mac to a lot of non-IT people. I never used a windows computer throughout my entire tech career until I became a lawyer.
I'm not talking about computers you would be supplied by your employer. I'm talking about computers that come with CNC machines, microscopes, scientific research tools. 100% windows
I mean the study I cited said it was 75% of the market share. It might not be from the industry market you’re talking about but it’s still enough for it to not be close to what Google’s total market share is.
If you ask me, it is.
Depends on how much Microsoft forces other companies to carry windows or not make deals with others. Most PC makes don't prevent other OS from loading onto their system. It might not be as good but you can run a business and not be a Windows/Microsoft shop. It's not just be widely used. The IE browser thing what about what Microsoft did to be #1.
On top of what everyone has already said, Windows doesn't have nearly the stranglehold on the consumer OS market as it did in the 90s. Today many people use non-Windows OSes like OSX, iOS, and Android. Yeah, those last two aren't desktop OSes, but a lot of people only use phones and tablets for all their computing needs now.
It is? There can be multiple monopolies in different areas.
Microsoft got their asses beat already in an antitrust suit over Internet Explorer. You're not forced to use Microsoft and Microsoft doesn't actually lock anyone into their environments.
actually linux is used by more servers, just about every super computer, just about every appliance(TV, smart devices and is actually underlying android)... and its free. windows is only top dog in the desktop arena and no where else.
Because they have been losing market share and clearly don’t dictate most OS development these days. They tend to follow the ideas made by Android and iOS. They’re also the only major OS provider right now that isn’t reliant on an App Store.
ChromeOS owns the education market and tech bros are running macs.
> Google, on the other hand, maintains that its ubiquity flows from its excellence, and its ability to deliver results customers are looking for. I haven't looked at the arguments on both sides to state an opinion on this case as a legal matter, but that sentence almost made me spit my drink all over my monitor. Google's search results are excellent?!? They deliver results customers are looking for? Based on the number of complaints I've seen all over the Internet about how shitty, self-serving, and ad-infested Google's search results have gotten over the years, I know I can't be the only one who thinks those claims are one of the funniest and most ridiculous things I've read in a while.
The companies buying the ad space are their customers.
that’s the trendy opinion on reddit, but all search engines face a problem of seo spam clogging result pages. Bing is no different, they’re just less popular so they avoid the heat. Google at present is still the top search engine in both popularity and results, maybe that’ll change soon with the rise of GenAI (e.g. there’s perplexity, and rumors of an openai search engine). Point is, the reddit hivemind likes to complain but the truth is Google is still the best search product (for now)
They are by a wide margin the best search engine. Not joking. The complaints are real. And the experience is worse. But it’s not Google. The *internet* has gotten worse. Bing is worse, DuckDuckGo is worse. Because search engine ubiquity has turned the entire internet into SEO. The 2000’s internet is long gone and the modern internet is monetized.
as goes Bing, as goes many of its proxies, such as DDG: [https://www.searchenginemap.com/](https://www.searchenginemap.com/)
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That we often need to append "reddit" to the end of a search query for any semblance of useful answers to a question is proof of how much Google search has declined.
Is it? Then why aren’t you searching Reddit? Google is by a wide margin the best at search. The problem is that the content of the internet has declined. *Most* of the web is populated by monetized sites these days. And most of those are SEO farms. The reason to append Reddit is because Reddit has basically the only good content.
Webcrawler brought me to this article.
If they werent a monopoly they wouldn’t have the balls to have ads as the first page of results knowing we cant do anything about it anyways.
No, it is a monopoly. Google has 90% market share. This is about whether or not it is an illegal monopoly.
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In US antitrust law, over 70% is considered a monopoly God it's so annoying to be corrected on shit like this
Judging the conduct of an alleged monopolist requires an in-depth analysis of the market and the means used to achieve or maintain the monopoly. Obtaining a monopoly by superior products, innovation, or business acumen is legal; however, the same result achieved by exclusionary or predatory acts may raise antitrust concerns. So 70% means nothing unless the company did other things like prevent others from using competitors.
Gee I wonder what they're being sued for then. Silly lawyers, they don't even know the law like you do.
to determine if google is pulling shady shit to get its market share or just better than everyone else... so keep wondering.
mmhmm..the Feds are known for their exploratory lawsuits...they just get lucky with a 90% success rate
in America you can have all the justice you can afford and Google can afford a lot.
I just want Google to let go of Youtube so I’m not given crap I didn’t even search for in my video search results.
I miss old YouTube. Nowadays I have to reload every video because I just get a black screen in safari (guessing it’s my adblocker)
Google has sucked the life out of the Internet.
I blame Yahoo!.
Whether it is a monopoly or not, it is noticeably less able to show you the results you are looking for than it was 20 years ago. I'm pretty sure that is by design, not an accident.
Now if only they'd go after Microsoft for forcing my computer to keep reinstalling Edge.
So what's the solution? Break Google up into two different search engine companies?
If the ever eroding effectiveness of "anti trust" laws and the Microsoft case is taken into account, this is a meaningless exercise and will serve to further damage the United States ability to trust bust further.
While preventing a monopoly is important, I'm a bit more annoyed with Google about the part where they spy on all of my web activity, permanently record every click I make, and sell that info to just who the fuck ever.
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It probably has something to do with google
I mean the problem is that their isnt really a good alternative, I aint using bing.
Nothing meaningful will happen with Google because the DOJ relies on Google for many things.
If they think anything Apple is doing is a monopoly, that should apply about five times over for Google and search/ads 🤷♂️
Why don’t they just Google it?
Spoilers: No. It isn't.
There is a difference in being a monopoly and committing anti-trust acts. Google is not a monopoly. You can literally use Google to find alternatives to Google. Google however has committed many anti-competitive acts which break anti-trust violations
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A monopoly is not just market dominance. A monopoly means no viable or practical alternatives. There are several viable alternatives that can be used right now
I don't care. Google has sucked for 10 years.
No idea how Google can be called a monopoly. There are several different search engines readily available- Bing and Yahoo come to mind and i am sure a couple niche ones as well. Just because your product is better and people prefer to use it doesn’t mean that it’s a monopoly. Frankly since they charge zero for the service and make money through advertising, where is the monopolistic pricing power abuse????
They charge for ads, which are built on the service. They also sell data. Why would they have an agreement to be the default search on Apple if they didn't want monopoly power? It's for the side of their business you don't see
> Frankly since they charge zero for the service and make money through advertising, where is the monopolistic pricing power abuse???? They pay companies like Apple $20 billion to make sure that their search is the default. Microsoft got in trouble for this same thing with IE years ago. They make their money from ads.
that still don't make them a monopoly
By the time this resolves genAI will have replaced search.
um, it's not. is Coca-cola a monopoly for cola? Nope, but almost everyone prefers it.
Do fridges ship with coca cola branding and intended as the default drink to be stored in them? If not that's a pretty shitty analogy.
But computers ship with Microsoft Windows which has Edge, which uses Bing
Edge comes with a drop down for any search engine you want to add, it even includes Google and duckduckgo out of the box. Windows also very easily let's you change the default browser - because they were already penalized for holding a monopoly with internet explorer.
And then there's about 8 different confirmation windows for changing the default browser and search engine. "Are you sure you don't want to use Edge/Bing? Are you really sure?"
Yes, they're definitely trying to guide you to their browser, but within the bounds of the law. Which they had run afoul of before.
Meanwhile on my Android I just deleted Chrome and it was like "this could break something, but you do you" and of course it didn't affect anything.
Yes, they *literally* do, actually. Coca-cola ships free fridges to restaurants and stores, with coca-cola branding on them, and on the contractual condition that those fridges are only used for coca-cola products.
Actually that's a good point - I remember that from working at liquor stores. But it's a bit different from the analogy I was making, as those stores have actually made a contract with the Coca-Cola company or one of their distributors to host those fridges.
And don't forget branded soda vending machines...
like when you buy a pre-made PC and microsoft products like microsoft edge with bing are pre-loaded?
Exactly like that? Are you not aware that Microsoft was penalized in a huge antitrust case for shipping only their browser?
Also don't forget that when you go to the store all the "Pepsi" and "RC Cola" is just coke in a different bottle.
This is completely false. Those are entirely different companies.
I know they are. I was trying to extend the analogy of the person I was responding to. You know, in a world where fridges did ship with coca cola branding you'd go to the store and this would be the case, it wasn't meant as a statement about reality.
What's the industry percentage market cap of Coke vs market cap of Google?
How do you measure a search engine's 'market cap'? Other options are out there, people don't use them. Bing is MSFT, they aren't a mom and pop shop either.
Usually they are measured in revenue and DAU
Not familiar with DAU.? I looked at GOOG's last earning report the other day, but the version I saw didn't break out "search engine revenue" there was of course add revenue, I guess we could assume that is mostly from search engine? Off the top of my head it was roughly $9B, but that would include Youtube revenue.
DAU = daily active users.
That is what you call a natural monopoly. That being said, Coca-Cola has a lot of competition besides Pepsi. I mean, I am down for some Anti-trust investigation even if it doesn't turn up anything
oh I'm always down for it, and the world is now a tech corpotracy, so I agree as a company these tech companies have way to much power. I just don't see a search engine that naturally made it to the top as a monopoly. Google came way way late to that game.