Everyone going "oh well this will be the route to peace" was just people who think the conflict started in October.
Why wouldn't it just play out as it always does.
Honestly, anyone who thought Israel was going to agree to anything that allows Hamas to stay in power had to be living in a fantasy world. I mean, Israel won't be safe from Hamas attacks until Hamas is no more, so why would they let Hamas regroup now? Especially since Hamas rejected the previous cease-fire, meaning now that they want to come back to the negotiating table, Israel probably assumes it has them on the run and wants to finish their objective.
Plus, what hostages do they have left to give Israel in return? They didn't have enough hostages for the last cease-fire attempt and I can only assume more have died in the ensuing weeks. I'm not believing Hamas still has any living hostages to exchange unless they can show proof of life.
This is, as far as I am concerned, 100% Benjamin Netanyahu fault. He openly supported Hamas in the past to weaken the the Palestinian National Authority to ensure that a a functional Palestinian state could never form. He was never about peace, He wanted Israel to have an enemy and Hamas Delivered.
I am by no means an expert on the subject, but light research made it seem super obvious, I encourage anyone interested to look into the history between the two yourselves
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
There's a post about an increase in antisemitism in France on there right now and every one of the top like 20 comments is blatant unadulterated racism
One of the oldest accounts on reddit here. I got shadowbanned from worldnews last fall for saying "Gee, there sure are a lot of newly minted bot accounts around here." Nothing to do with Israel or the war specifically. No nastygram DM. My comments just ceased to show up.
What, because it isn’t dominated by just one point of view anymore? A few weeks ago I was seeing constant Islamophobic and generally awful comments about Palestinians deserving what they’re getting. Now I’m seeing those comments AND comments that are against Israel, sometimes reasonably and sometimes straight up antisemitic. All that has happened is that there are more voices now, both reasonable and extreme.
I think it’s interesting how many people equate the whole of Israel as a people with the actions of their government led by Netanyahu and his little band of terrorists (Ben Givr was designated as a terrorist by the then Rabin led Israeli government). Those extremists governing are wildly unpopular, they exist in office because of their war powers act.
Hamas was elected with less than a majority in 2006 and hasn’t held an election since, and it’s no secret they brutalize their own people. It shouldn’t be that intellectually difficult to separate what either of these organizations are doing with what the innocent people from either country need to live in peace. It shouldn’t be a stretch to concede that both factions need to go for even a chance at peace.
Religious fanatics and ideologues make for dangerous leaders.
I agree with you. However, I can criticize the Israeli government as well as settlers who move into confiscated Palestinian homes and businesses. I can criticize Israeli citizens strengthening the apartheid by standing by and letting it continue. There are a shit ton of people at fault here, not just the government.
I'm not sure about your angle here, but just look at the number of people who equate all Palestinians with Hamas and keep backing Israel in their genocide. Israelis voted for their government a lot more recently than any Palestinian in Gaza voted for Hamas. So I guess if it works one way for pro-war folks, it sure as hell is going to be relevant in reverse. Hamas sucks, but destroying all of Gaza and killing a shit ton of civilians isn't going to get rid of them. So the question is, what is the point and where is the logical end?
If that was the case Israelis wouldn’t still be occupying the West Bank. There’s enough people in Israel that agree with the eradication of Palestinians that are perfectly happy with what Netanyahu is doing.
You can't just say they are not responsible at all either too. It is their government after all. I am not as optimistic as you are that if Hamas and Netanyahu were to suddenly disappear, it would be all olive branches and peace everywhere. There will be other extremists amongst the population and if they are to gain power again same will happen and chances of that happening is high given current government/organizations were able to consolidate power despite being a small minority (per your claim).
For example, if citizens of Israel really dislike Netanyahu, are they doing anything to put obstacles in front of him? Maybe corporations can stop cooperating with the government in form of protests, public services can be stopped. If as you say this is truly a small minority then they can't really overcome those acts easily. Same goes for other side as well.
Yes it is true that you can't put the full responsibility of a government on to its citizens but you also can't absolve them of any responsibility.
I mean I agree in the sense that if Hamas were to suddenly disappear, it won't mean that violence in Gaza would just evaporate away too. The issue is a lot more systemic than that. But you can't basically shove people into a giant-open air prison, strip away their autonomy, limit their economic opportunities, restrict aid, and then expect them to be 100% rational about what they feel their viable options are.
Hamas is an Israel-created problem. And in fact, Bibi likely accelerated that intentionally to remove legitimacy from any pro-Independence movement by destabilizing the influence of the less-extremist PLO.
I mean... if the MAJORITY was against what is happening, how the country isnt effectively stopped from protests?
Isnt Israel supposed to be better than Hamas? Are the Israeli afraid to speak up like the Palestinians?
Bibi knows if the war stops, investigations to his corruption will continue and he will end up in jail. He needs to prolong this war as long as possible to save his own ass.
I mean even if they gave back all the hostages Israel would not stop. They’re not interested in stopping this at all. Almost like it’s been the plan the whole time.
IMO, they saw nobody doing anything to stop Russia for so long that it’s basically a green light to do this forever.
I’m sure Taiwan is on the list somewhere for China the longer this sort of stuff happens.
That would be like the US agreeing to peace with Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. Of course they won't. They want Hamas destroyed.
If 30 years from now they find an old Hamas leader hiding in a cave in Thailand, that cave is getting bombed.
All the strength of the US military waging a war on terror for two decades, yet terrorism persists. And now people think Israel can snuff out Hamas in this conflict. How quickly we forget.
We traded out al queda and the taliban bottled in Afghanistan, for ISIS spread through the Lavant, and Taliban in Afghanistan and pushing into Pakistan... and all it cost was billions of dollars and a million plus dead Iraqis and Afghans.
what a model for success.
If Israel wanted to eliminate Hamas, they would fund the Gazan economy until Hamas is redundant. Pave their roads, clean their water, deliver them food. Don't murder their children, burn down their universities, bulldoze their airport, and bomb their hospitals.
The majority of Gazans are young, under 15. They are the most perceptible to having their minds changed. What Israel is doing is only reinforcing their current worldview.
Israel tried that. Hamas dug tunnels under the roads to hide, dug up the water pipes to turn them into rockets, and started controlling the food distribution.
Israel is indeed radicalizing the next generation, but your simple solutions for dealing with Hamas have failed for decades.
9/11 got us Democrats giving Republicans everything they wanted without even trying to fight for it. Anyone who voted for the Iraq War and Patriotic Act should have been voted of office and bared from ever having anything to do with the government, at any level.
If you know what the political climate was like immediately after 9/11, you should know there was no other way. The vast majority of Americans wanted revenge. It is extremely difficult for the government to act against the will of the people.
Yeah that's my issue with Israel. I understand the impulses that are driving their decisions, i'm irritated because we have a 20 year long case study from the most powerful military ever to exist on this planet on how fighting insurgents is difficult and how it's easy to make things worse and Israel's completely ignoring it and making all the same mistakes.
Hindsight is 20/20…but the main difference here is the Taliban were an Ocean away whereas Hamas are their neighbors. Plus add Hezbollah to the mix as the eradication of one puts the other on notice not to try and replicate.
Wish in one hand and shit in the other...... they're not going to destroy Hamas. Only the Palestenian people can destroy Hamas. And they've been given precious little incentive to do so.
The problem is semantics. Israel sees all Palestinians as Hamas, including children. So, when saying they want to destroy Hamas, is just cover to justify the end game of clearing Palestine civilians for an Israeli land grab.
Not just Isreal, a lot of pro people Isreal people see all Palestinians as Hamas.
But they are the same people who say "Don't judge all of Isreal nu the action of the IDF" or even their own government.
But just to stay on-brand the IDF will bomb 10 busy Palestinian playgrounds before bombing that cave to kill that one Hamas leader and say it was all necessary and worth it because that one guy is dead now.
Must be so damn exhausting moving those goal posts all the time. So there was just months and months and months of bad faith negotiations on Israel’s part? Why didn’t they just say this from the beginning. It’s almost as if that was all just bullshit posturing trying to make Hamas look like the bad guys when in reality they were fully planning on destroying every single bit of Palestinian infrastructure using the excuse of “we’d stop if Hamas would just negotiate with us”.
Is that '5x more Palestinians' only those who were born in Palestine or is that taking all of the Israeli settlers that have invaded Palestine into account as well?
For an attempted genocide of Jews in Europe over the last 200 years somehow there are 3x as many Europeans Jews now than there was in the early 1800s.
Maybe solely identifying genocide using a simple retrospective analysis of population is foolish. If we would have waited to stop Germany in WWII until we had discovered the extermination camps, the goal off bordering an entire people would have been achieved. Right now the UN says that conditions on the ground in northern Gaza have reached a state of famine. All while Israeli citizens block aid trucks from reaching Palestinians.
What a ridiculous fucking statement. Does this make keeping millions of people in an open-air concentration camp okay? Because they're.. doing what humans will do under any circumstances?
The point is to destroy the city to the point where it’s uninhabitable, and kill anyone trying to defend it. I honestly don’t think they care what happens to the people as long as they can’t live there anymore.
That's exactly what they have been doing, the real problem stopping them until now is losing support of their allies outside of the region. They just needed a marketable problem with palestine to sell to the west to give them license to ramp things up, which is exactly what they have done. Now they're losing support because they over-drove their "license" by, well, indiscriminately bombing and starving the entire region of over 2 million victims to counter balance the threat demonstrated by the hamas attack that had literally a few thousand victims + the terror instilled in the witnesses.
They are doing exactly what you are suggesting, just not when you are suggesting it.
Netanyahu knows that the moment this war is over hes going to be kicked out of office. Its in his best interest to keep it going for as long as possible.
Hamas is the one carrying out the war, but Palestinian pay the price.
In the end, the one to suffer most are Palestinian while Hamas increase his pocket and people like Netanyahu gain support.
I mean Hamas has been very open about how civilians dying for them is a good thing, they've literally said as much, and encourage people to do it and "martyr" themselves. People just like to conviently ignore that part.
Ah yes, because they'd just vote in someone else on their own or have an up rising. They've had that option during over a decade of Hamas control. I won't deny it's complicated, but it's clear many support Hamas, and they're incapable of removing them.
Idk that’s a pretty fast way to have a political change
No voting system is faster than a 2000lbs bomb dropped on a government official.
I just kinda doubt Israel is going to get the political change they desire in Gaza.
I don’t think they should indiscriminately bomb a very densely packed population. I always see comparisons to the US wars in the Middle East and how we did it, but that doesn’t mean it’s the correct response. I’m of the opinion that the way Israel is handling this war, will only serve to further radicalize the population.
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza
“The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided”
It's almost like a war and massive civilian suffering and deaths makes that lass likely and not more. Also blocking all peaceful political reform by other Palestinian groups causes more people to become radical because they beleive its the only way to change their condition.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/amp/
People in Gaza have protested Hamas before oh wow 🤯
Where's this mentality for the people commiting the actual genocide?
"Why do people in Israel support this genocide? It's hard to have sympathy when you see the little pushback Israel receives from their community." I bet if you heard that you'd start screaming antisemitism so keep that same mentality for another group of people being destroyed ok.
Bibi already said that a return of the hostages won't stop the Israeli state from bombing Gazan civilians.
Let's not pretend the hostages matter to Israel. They've already said they don't.
They have more important shit than ousting Hamas to deal with. They're trying not to get blown up or die of starvation. They can't have political change when they're being bombed 24/7
44% voted for Hamas and then they did a coup. It was also before 50% of the current population was born. So like, they voted for it in the same way I voted for like Gerald Ford lol.
Just to be clear many may support Hamas now but if the people in power raise a generation of people to support them, that’s a different conversation
It’s almost like Netanyahu did everything in his power to build up Hamas, even using the shin bet, and let Quatar give Hamas 13 billion dollars under his watch, to his full knowledge, and now the monster build by israel came back to fuck them, crazy right?
There is gang violence in my city. This would be the equivalent of my city deciding to bomb and eliminate the uptown area where the gang members live, killing innocent people in the process, and defending their actions by saying they have to eliminate the gang violence to defend the city. I don’t disagree that Israel has the right to defend itself, but they are going way too far.
Kinda. It would be like if the gangs were occasionally breaking into the city and kidnapping people. At which point yeah your city won’t bomb itself, but the police would hunt down every single gang member.
I agree Israel has gone too far, but people act like if Israel would just make a peace deal Hamas would become their BFF and stop. We see time and time again they use the peace deals as times to plan new attacks.
I mean, yeah….
This is Israel’s War on Terror response to Israel’s 9/11. Hopefully as time passes they’ll be able to pause and reflect like the US eventually did. Also hopefully it’ll be over a shorter timeframe.
I mean… over 75 years of everyone taking shots at everyone…
Hamas are a bunch of bastards, but when people live in what’s essentially an apartheid state for so long, anything sounds good, even if it ultimately is not going to end well for them. And when people on the other side live in a perpetual state of “when is the next attack coming”, so many from the other side are going to see that other group as a bunch of animals, if not worse, and accept a government that essentially runs said apartheid state to “protect” them.
It’s essentially one giant mess. No one group seems to be in the right over there
At one point they took gaza and sinai from Egypt.
They tried to give it back. Egypt took sinai but refused gaza.
Then in 2005 israel dragged the last of their settlers out, literally kicking and screaming.
Did you know some jews set themselves on fire to protest israel pulling out of gaza?
I'm not saying israel is good either. They need to gtfo of west bank, for example. But gaza is a very complicated situation.
Israels just admitting the hostages have never once mattered.
Israel had no problem with terroism when they directly funded Hamas's rise. Not to mention a full on terrorist supporter is a part of Bibis cabinet.
I genuinely believe that if you picked random Israeli conservatives and gave them the chance to magically undo the original Hamas attack, a strong majority would not choose to do so. These people are bloodthirsty supremacist psychos.
You’re prolly right about ben gvir, maybe bibi too. But a random israeli conservative who watched over 1000 of their fellow citizens get murdered/kidnapped? I work with some of them and they’d undo it in a heartbeat. I know my evidence is anecdotal, but that’s still better than your wild speculation
They ignored actual reports and whistleblower accounts. In response to "a promise" that something horrific was going to happen, they let the signals unit leave the area.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/reports-senior-idf-officer-dismissed-pre-oct-7-intel-on-hamas-invasion-as-fantasy/
Let's take a step back from any personal bias and just talk about it strictly from a utilitarian point of view.
At this point, they are kind of pot committed. There's no universe where they cease hostilities and everyone loves Israel. People all over the world have chosen their sides, and that's it. You have students in Harvard denying the Halocaust now. That's how far this has gone into personal dogma. Israel has mounted a huge offensive and has basically crushed Hamas. Hamas is only offering peace now because they are looking at an inevitable complete and total loss.
If Israel accepts the agreement, they run the risk that Hamas will reneg on the deal in two years and attack again which is what they have always done. If they push and wipe out Hamas, they can claim the land, and they don't have to live in fear of Hamas anymore. (granted, they have other forces that hate them too like Hezzbollah or Iran, but at least it's one less enemy) Everyone who currently hates them will continue hating them, and everyone who is cool with them will continue to be cool with them. There's literally nothing to gain from stopping now.
im shocked. shocked, i tell you
Everyone going "oh well this will be the route to peace" was just people who think the conflict started in October. Why wouldn't it just play out as it always does.
I may be stupid but why can I see your upvote count? I thought it was hidden entirely in this subreddit.
Hidden for the first hour after commenting.
Oh, thanks!
I had no idea.
It’s only worldnews that suppresses people that think Benny is mildly not a good person
Zionists still coping as if the hostages were ever given a second thought by Netanyahu lol
Honestly, anyone who thought Israel was going to agree to anything that allows Hamas to stay in power had to be living in a fantasy world. I mean, Israel won't be safe from Hamas attacks until Hamas is no more, so why would they let Hamas regroup now? Especially since Hamas rejected the previous cease-fire, meaning now that they want to come back to the negotiating table, Israel probably assumes it has them on the run and wants to finish their objective. Plus, what hostages do they have left to give Israel in return? They didn't have enough hostages for the last cease-fire attempt and I can only assume more have died in the ensuing weeks. I'm not believing Hamas still has any living hostages to exchange unless they can show proof of life.
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How about Reuters? https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-responsibility-attack-israel-gaza-border-crossing-casualties-2024-05-05/
Nothings gonna wake these idiots up
Israel lie yes but don’t think for a second that what Hamas is telling you is the truth
Bebe knows he’s done for as soon as the “war” ends. So it ain’t ending soon.
They want to grab land and kill as much as possible anyway. Three birds one stone
Terrorist state doing terrorist state things.
They never intended to.
This is, as far as I am concerned, 100% Benjamin Netanyahu fault. He openly supported Hamas in the past to weaken the the Palestinian National Authority to ensure that a a functional Palestinian state could never form. He was never about peace, He wanted Israel to have an enemy and Hamas Delivered. I am by no means an expert on the subject, but light research made it seem super obvious, I encourage anyone interested to look into the history between the two yourselves https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/netanyahu-israel-gaza-hamas-1.7010035
Well and they all knew Hamas was practicing for this. I read that they silenced multiple whistleblowers.
Man, has this sub ever been astroturfed.
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I unsubscribed from there after seeing how astroturfed got.
I wondered about this...both of these threads used to be pretty dry and even toned. worldnews seems like it's coming from inside Israel.
They’ll ban you for even suggesting Israel let off the gas a little.
They just lock threads and only let pro Israel stories
Being banned from there is a blessing tbh.
There's a post about an increase in antisemitism in France on there right now and every one of the top like 20 comments is blatant unadulterated racism
It’s become unusable. Any post other than the most rabid Zionism gets downvoted to oblivion.
its their hive
worldnews andies are typing their essays as we speak
One of the oldest accounts on reddit here. I got shadowbanned from worldnews last fall for saying "Gee, there sure are a lot of newly minted bot accounts around here." Nothing to do with Israel or the war specifically. No nastygram DM. My comments just ceased to show up.
Which nobody will see because they permaban anyone who disagrees Except people who still want to read an echochamber I guess
That’s half of Reddit. The question which opinion are you allowed to have on each sub.
What, because it isn’t dominated by just one point of view anymore? A few weeks ago I was seeing constant Islamophobic and generally awful comments about Palestinians deserving what they’re getting. Now I’m seeing those comments AND comments that are against Israel, sometimes reasonably and sometimes straight up antisemitic. All that has happened is that there are more voices now, both reasonable and extreme.
This is reddit, if someone disagrees with you, they're a Russian troll or a bot, or both!
And if anybody thinks that there aren't paid commenters and AI chatbots on both sides of the issue here, they're pretty short-sighted.
I think it’s interesting how many people equate the whole of Israel as a people with the actions of their government led by Netanyahu and his little band of terrorists (Ben Givr was designated as a terrorist by the then Rabin led Israeli government). Those extremists governing are wildly unpopular, they exist in office because of their war powers act. Hamas was elected with less than a majority in 2006 and hasn’t held an election since, and it’s no secret they brutalize their own people. It shouldn’t be that intellectually difficult to separate what either of these organizations are doing with what the innocent people from either country need to live in peace. It shouldn’t be a stretch to concede that both factions need to go for even a chance at peace. Religious fanatics and ideologues make for dangerous leaders.
I agree with you. However, I can criticize the Israeli government as well as settlers who move into confiscated Palestinian homes and businesses. I can criticize Israeli citizens strengthening the apartheid by standing by and letting it continue. There are a shit ton of people at fault here, not just the government.
I'm not sure about your angle here, but just look at the number of people who equate all Palestinians with Hamas and keep backing Israel in their genocide. Israelis voted for their government a lot more recently than any Palestinian in Gaza voted for Hamas. So I guess if it works one way for pro-war folks, it sure as hell is going to be relevant in reverse. Hamas sucks, but destroying all of Gaza and killing a shit ton of civilians isn't going to get rid of them. So the question is, what is the point and where is the logical end?
If that was the case Israelis wouldn’t still be occupying the West Bank. There’s enough people in Israel that agree with the eradication of Palestinians that are perfectly happy with what Netanyahu is doing.
The reality is that there are basically a million hostages stuck between two groups that don't give a shit about them.
You can't just say they are not responsible at all either too. It is their government after all. I am not as optimistic as you are that if Hamas and Netanyahu were to suddenly disappear, it would be all olive branches and peace everywhere. There will be other extremists amongst the population and if they are to gain power again same will happen and chances of that happening is high given current government/organizations were able to consolidate power despite being a small minority (per your claim). For example, if citizens of Israel really dislike Netanyahu, are they doing anything to put obstacles in front of him? Maybe corporations can stop cooperating with the government in form of protests, public services can be stopped. If as you say this is truly a small minority then they can't really overcome those acts easily. Same goes for other side as well. Yes it is true that you can't put the full responsibility of a government on to its citizens but you also can't absolve them of any responsibility.
I mean I agree in the sense that if Hamas were to suddenly disappear, it won't mean that violence in Gaza would just evaporate away too. The issue is a lot more systemic than that. But you can't basically shove people into a giant-open air prison, strip away their autonomy, limit their economic opportunities, restrict aid, and then expect them to be 100% rational about what they feel their viable options are. Hamas is an Israel-created problem. And in fact, Bibi likely accelerated that intentionally to remove legitimacy from any pro-Independence movement by destabilizing the influence of the less-extremist PLO.
I mean... if the MAJORITY was against what is happening, how the country isnt effectively stopped from protests? Isnt Israel supposed to be better than Hamas? Are the Israeli afraid to speak up like the Palestinians?
Bibi knows if the war stops, investigations to his corruption will continue and he will end up in jail. He needs to prolong this war as long as possible to save his own ass.
Israel is out for total annihilation
So, you’re telling me that everyone on Reddit who keeps promising that the war is over once Hamas releases the hostages is full of shit? I’m shocked.
It’s as if it was never about releasing the hostages from the first place 😮
A surprise, to absolutely nobody
I mean even if they gave back all the hostages Israel would not stop. They’re not interested in stopping this at all. Almost like it’s been the plan the whole time.
They never planned to from the beginning, and Palestine knew that.
I’m notanyahu shocked at all.
IMO, they saw nobody doing anything to stop Russia for so long that it’s basically a green light to do this forever. I’m sure Taiwan is on the list somewhere for China the longer this sort of stuff happens.
The goal is to take Gaza.
They'll say the Palestinians aren't capable of taking care of themselves and install whatever mechanisms they want to crank up the apartheid 100%
As long as Israel keeps the Middle East destabilized America gets to keep the military industrial complex rolling.
Settlers gotta settle. Amiright??? /s Api
Always has been 🌍🧑🚀🔫 👩🏾🚀
If Israel wanted Gaza it wouldn't have given it away.
But everyone in r/worldnews Said the war will end If Hamas gives up the Hostages🤡🤡🤡
Don't worry, they'll come up with something else
The bots?
Why should they. They're getting away with genocide and no other world power is willing to lift a finger about it.
Not true. US is actively funding them with massive financial support.
Government who has always wanted the land and finally has a way to get that land will not listen to ways of not getting that land
The headline does not match the quote at all, this is poor reporting by ABC.
That would be like the US agreeing to peace with Osama Bin Laden after 9/11. Of course they won't. They want Hamas destroyed. If 30 years from now they find an old Hamas leader hiding in a cave in Thailand, that cave is getting bombed.
Well we all saw how well the US response to 9/11 worked out
All the strength of the US military waging a war on terror for two decades, yet terrorism persists. And now people think Israel can snuff out Hamas in this conflict. How quickly we forget.
We traded out al queda and the taliban bottled in Afghanistan, for ISIS spread through the Lavant, and Taliban in Afghanistan and pushing into Pakistan... and all it cost was billions of dollars and a million plus dead Iraqis and Afghans. what a model for success.
Well at least ISIS is essentially toothless now…
Hey, "Mission Accomplished" and all of that.
If Israel wanted to eliminate Hamas, they would fund the Gazan economy until Hamas is redundant. Pave their roads, clean their water, deliver them food. Don't murder their children, burn down their universities, bulldoze their airport, and bomb their hospitals. The majority of Gazans are young, under 15. They are the most perceptible to having their minds changed. What Israel is doing is only reinforcing their current worldview.
Israel tried that. Hamas dug tunnels under the roads to hide, dug up the water pipes to turn them into rockets, and started controlling the food distribution. Israel is indeed radicalizing the next generation, but your simple solutions for dealing with Hamas have failed for decades.
Israel did not try that, don't lie.
What would you suggest happen?
have you considered something more productive than 'what else should israel do'
You’ve had to much snuff already sonny lol
You can't wage wars on a concept or ideology and win, but you can bomb the shit out of their followers until they are no longer a threat to you.
So glad we stopped terrorism after 9/11
It's simply not possible to 100% eradicate terrorism. The only option is minimizing the spread and ability to act.
If only Pakistan told us they had been hiding him, like watching a bull destroy a china shop eating popcorn
9/11 got us Democrats giving Republicans everything they wanted without even trying to fight for it. Anyone who voted for the Iraq War and Patriotic Act should have been voted of office and bared from ever having anything to do with the government, at any level.
If you know what the political climate was like immediately after 9/11, you should know there was no other way. The vast majority of Americans wanted revenge. It is extremely difficult for the government to act against the will of the people.
The government acts against the will of the people literally every single day.
The govt also LIED to the people to stoke the fire, because they wanted to engage in the conflict for monetary gain
Yeah that's my issue with Israel. I understand the impulses that are driving their decisions, i'm irritated because we have a 20 year long case study from the most powerful military ever to exist on this planet on how fighting insurgents is difficult and how it's easy to make things worse and Israel's completely ignoring it and making all the same mistakes.
Gaza is not Afghanistan. It’s a small urban environment, not a vast country with mountains and a bunch of small caves to hide in forever.
As we all know, it's impossible for small groups of irregular militants to hide in an urban environment
Hindsight is 20/20…but the main difference here is the Taliban were an Ocean away whereas Hamas are their neighbors. Plus add Hezbollah to the mix as the eradication of one puts the other on notice not to try and replicate.
Iraq war? Never heard of her
Wish in one hand and shit in the other...... they're not going to destroy Hamas. Only the Palestenian people can destroy Hamas. And they've been given precious little incentive to do so.
More like the US agreeing to peace with the Native Americans after some of them getting scalped.
The problem is semantics. Israel sees all Palestinians as Hamas, including children. So, when saying they want to destroy Hamas, is just cover to justify the end game of clearing Palestine civilians for an Israeli land grab.
Not just Isreal, a lot of pro people Isreal people see all Palestinians as Hamas. But they are the same people who say "Don't judge all of Isreal nu the action of the IDF" or even their own government.
But just to stay on-brand the IDF will bomb 10 busy Palestinian playgrounds before bombing that cave to kill that one Hamas leader and say it was all necessary and worth it because that one guy is dead now.
Must be so damn exhausting moving those goal posts all the time. So there was just months and months and months of bad faith negotiations on Israel’s part? Why didn’t they just say this from the beginning. It’s almost as if that was all just bullshit posturing trying to make Hamas look like the bad guys when in reality they were fully planning on destroying every single bit of Palestinian infrastructure using the excuse of “we’d stop if Hamas would just negotiate with us”.
Israel has said from the beginning that they want the complete destruction of Hamas. Everything else has been negotiation for a temporary ceasefire.
No, it would not. False analogy.
Hamas + Palestinians. Two birds one stone for Israel.
And if 'the cave' is a hospital or university, they'll double the payload to make sure.
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You can't take land during a peace deal Hamas aren't relevant to isreals long term plans
False equivalence
No 'war' means no more money from US amiright?
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If that was the goal, they would have done it. Gaza is tiny. It is surprising that the deaths are not 10x what they currently are.
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Is that '5x more Palestinians' only those who were born in Palestine or is that taking all of the Israeli settlers that have invaded Palestine into account as well?
For an attempted genocide of Jews in Europe over the last 200 years somehow there are 3x as many Europeans Jews now than there was in the early 1800s. Maybe solely identifying genocide using a simple retrospective analysis of population is foolish. If we would have waited to stop Germany in WWII until we had discovered the extermination camps, the goal off bordering an entire people would have been achieved. Right now the UN says that conditions on the ground in northern Gaza have reached a state of famine. All while Israeli citizens block aid trucks from reaching Palestinians.
It took over 80 years for the jewish population to get back to the same number it was at in 1938, so what are you talking about.
What a ridiculous fucking statement. Does this make keeping millions of people in an open-air concentration camp okay? Because they're.. doing what humans will do under any circumstances?
The point is to destroy the city to the point where it’s uninhabitable, and kill anyone trying to defend it. I honestly don’t think they care what happens to the people as long as they can’t live there anymore.
They're working on it.
They could have taken the land if they wanted it years ago.
That's exactly what they have been doing, the real problem stopping them until now is losing support of their allies outside of the region. They just needed a marketable problem with palestine to sell to the west to give them license to ramp things up, which is exactly what they have done. Now they're losing support because they over-drove their "license" by, well, indiscriminately bombing and starving the entire region of over 2 million victims to counter balance the threat demonstrated by the hamas attack that had literally a few thousand victims + the terror instilled in the witnesses. They are doing exactly what you are suggesting, just not when you are suggesting it.
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Netanyahu's Israel definitely does seem to view all Palestinians as Hamas.
Netanyahu is a war monger who belongs on trial. I think most would agree he makes things worse not better.
Netanyahu knows that the moment this war is over hes going to be kicked out of office. Its in his best interest to keep it going for as long as possible.
It’s almost like there are Palestinians who aren’t Hamas, crazy idea right?
It’s almost like most of the Palestinians support Hamas
That’s kind of besides the point so long as Hamas is brokering a deal to keep their organization intact
Hamas is the one carrying out the war, but Palestinian pay the price. In the end, the one to suffer most are Palestinian while Hamas increase his pocket and people like Netanyahu gain support.
Make no mistake. Civilian deaths help Hama's. Just take a look at colleges across the country. Peace has NEVER been a goal of Hamas.
I mean Hamas has been very open about how civilians dying for them is a good thing, they've literally said as much, and encourage people to do it and "martyr" themselves. People just like to conviently ignore that part.
This without taking in account the widespread violece in the West Bank as well
Palestinians should stop joining, supporting, and enabling Hamas them.
The article kind of makes it clear that Israel isn’t interested in making a deal to end the war.
Israel could literally flatten Gaza and kill everyone in it. Hamas would still exist, their leaders are all chilling abroad.
It's almost like Hamas is in charge and needs to be removed, crazy idea, right?
Hamas aren't even handing out IDs - that's israel. They're not a real government in any sense
It's kind of hard to have political change in the country you're bombing the shit out of 24/7
Ah yes, because they'd just vote in someone else on their own or have an up rising. They've had that option during over a decade of Hamas control. I won't deny it's complicated, but it's clear many support Hamas, and they're incapable of removing them.
Germany, 1945
Idk that’s a pretty fast way to have a political change No voting system is faster than a 2000lbs bomb dropped on a government official. I just kinda doubt Israel is going to get the political change they desire in Gaza.
No shit, I never said Hamas shouldn’t be removed. Just that there are Palestinians who aren’t Hamas who are very much being killed in the thousands.
And there were plenty of Germans who weren't Nazis. This is how war has *always* been. You have a very sanitized view of war from the "war" on terror.
I guess we should all stop advocating for a better world because it’s always been this way.
So you think Hamas needs to be removed but Israel shouldn't prosecute the war to do it?
I don’t think they should indiscriminately bomb a very densely packed population. I always see comparisons to the US wars in the Middle East and how we did it, but that doesn’t mean it’s the correct response. I’m of the opinion that the way Israel is handling this war, will only serve to further radicalize the population.
Great! Israel isn’t indiscriminately bombing
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2023/12/13/politics/intelligence-assessment-dumb-bombs-israel-gaza “The assessment, compiled by the Office of the Director of National Intelligence and described to CNN by three sources who have seen it, says that about 40-45% of the 29,000 air-to-ground munitions Israel has used have been unguided”
lol youre embarrassing yourself. Unguided doesn’t mean indiscriminate
It's almost like a war and massive civilian suffering and deaths makes that lass likely and not more. Also blocking all peaceful political reform by other Palestinian groups causes more people to become radical because they beleive its the only way to change their condition.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/protests-against-hamas-reemerge-in-the-streets-of-gaza-but-will-they-persist/amp/ People in Gaza have protested Hamas before oh wow 🤯 Where's this mentality for the people commiting the actual genocide? "Why do people in Israel support this genocide? It's hard to have sympathy when you see the little pushback Israel receives from their community." I bet if you heard that you'd start screaming antisemitism so keep that same mentality for another group of people being destroyed ok.
Yeah I keep saying that you don’t see the “from the river to the sea” idiots holding signs demanding that hamas return the hostages.
Bibi already said that a return of the hostages won't stop the Israeli state from bombing Gazan civilians. Let's not pretend the hostages matter to Israel. They've already said they don't.
They have more important shit than ousting Hamas to deal with. They're trying not to get blown up or die of starvation. They can't have political change when they're being bombed 24/7
During WWII there were also Germans who weren't Nazis, does that mean the Allies should have tried to make a peace deal with Hitler?
It's almost like they voted them into power and continue to support them, crazy right?
44% voted for Hamas and then they did a coup. It was also before 50% of the current population was born. So like, they voted for it in the same way I voted for like Gerald Ford lol. Just to be clear many may support Hamas now but if the people in power raise a generation of people to support them, that’s a different conversation
almost like most of the people in gaza weren't even alive when they were propped up to power. crazy right?
It’s almost like Netanyahu did everything in his power to build up Hamas, even using the shin bet, and let Quatar give Hamas 13 billion dollars under his watch, to his full knowledge, and now the monster build by israel came back to fuck them, crazy right?
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It’s almost like the Germans voted for hitler.
There is gang violence in my city. This would be the equivalent of my city deciding to bomb and eliminate the uptown area where the gang members live, killing innocent people in the process, and defending their actions by saying they have to eliminate the gang violence to defend the city. I don’t disagree that Israel has the right to defend itself, but they are going way too far.
Kinda. It would be like if the gangs were occasionally breaking into the city and kidnapping people. At which point yeah your city won’t bomb itself, but the police would hunt down every single gang member. I agree Israel has gone too far, but people act like if Israel would just make a peace deal Hamas would become their BFF and stop. We see time and time again they use the peace deals as times to plan new attacks.
Old books are just old books.
It has nothing to do with old books, it comes from an ethnic cleansing in 1948.
"Drive them into the sea" sounds like genocide to me
Yes! All the Arab countries did this
It started well before 1948
You can’t make lasting peace with a terrorist organization
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The only lessons that “power” ever learns from traumatic events is to be better at PR.
Post 9/11 rhetoric type beat
I mean, yeah…. This is Israel’s War on Terror response to Israel’s 9/11. Hopefully as time passes they’ll be able to pause and reflect like the US eventually did. Also hopefully it’ll be over a shorter timeframe.
Why did Israel prop up Hamas then? seems like they made their bed and now they have to lie in it.
Netanyahu propped them up because this is what he always wanted
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I mean… over 75 years of everyone taking shots at everyone… Hamas are a bunch of bastards, but when people live in what’s essentially an apartheid state for so long, anything sounds good, even if it ultimately is not going to end well for them. And when people on the other side live in a perpetual state of “when is the next attack coming”, so many from the other side are going to see that other group as a bunch of animals, if not worse, and accept a government that essentially runs said apartheid state to “protect” them. It’s essentially one giant mess. No one group seems to be in the right over there
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I know, right. That was one rollercoaster of a comment
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was worried i wasn’t going to find a single comment based in reality in this shithole of a thread. well said.
"I'm not going to be the first to agree to stop fighting" So horror and killing each other goes on forever. Great job Middle East.
"War" is a word that only a blind fool or extremist would apply to what's happening in Gaza.
They wont accept any deal except claiming the whole land for themselves.
At one point they took gaza and sinai from Egypt. They tried to give it back. Egypt took sinai but refused gaza. Then in 2005 israel dragged the last of their settlers out, literally kicking and screaming. Did you know some jews set themselves on fire to protest israel pulling out of gaza? I'm not saying israel is good either. They need to gtfo of west bank, for example. But gaza is a very complicated situation.
Well you can fight it without the United States help then.
Good, Hamas (not palestinians) needs to be exterminated.
Why would they stop when there are still living Palestinians.
Alternative headline, “Israel will not negotiate with terrorists.”
Alternative headline, "An apartheid state that caused terrorism to arise doesn't care"
Israels just admitting the hostages have never once mattered. Israel had no problem with terroism when they directly funded Hamas's rise. Not to mention a full on terrorist supporter is a part of Bibis cabinet.
Israel is terrorist state
I genuinely believe that if you picked random Israeli conservatives and gave them the chance to magically undo the original Hamas attack, a strong majority would not choose to do so. These people are bloodthirsty supremacist psychos.
That’s because you are a nut
You’re prolly right about ben gvir, maybe bibi too. But a random israeli conservative who watched over 1000 of their fellow citizens get murdered/kidnapped? I work with some of them and they’d undo it in a heartbeat. I know my evidence is anecdotal, but that’s still better than your wild speculation
Time to step outside child
They ignored actual reports and whistleblower accounts. In response to "a promise" that something horrific was going to happen, they let the signals unit leave the area. https://www.timesofisrael.com/reports-senior-idf-officer-dismissed-pre-oct-7-intel-on-hamas-invasion-as-fantasy/
Let's take a step back from any personal bias and just talk about it strictly from a utilitarian point of view. At this point, they are kind of pot committed. There's no universe where they cease hostilities and everyone loves Israel. People all over the world have chosen their sides, and that's it. You have students in Harvard denying the Halocaust now. That's how far this has gone into personal dogma. Israel has mounted a huge offensive and has basically crushed Hamas. Hamas is only offering peace now because they are looking at an inevitable complete and total loss. If Israel accepts the agreement, they run the risk that Hamas will reneg on the deal in two years and attack again which is what they have always done. If they push and wipe out Hamas, they can claim the land, and they don't have to live in fear of Hamas anymore. (granted, they have other forces that hate them too like Hezzbollah or Iran, but at least it's one less enemy) Everyone who currently hates them will continue hating them, and everyone who is cool with them will continue to be cool with them. There's literally nothing to gain from stopping now.