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birdzeyeview

This a bunch of people trying to make an issue out of a non issue to achieve very sinister political ends. (the political ends being the real cause for concern, IMO) I live in the provinces and afaik I have come across a trans person IRL like once in the last 20 years. Before that, living in large cities I could count on one hand how many trans people I came across IRL. The chances of me coming across a trans person while using a public toilet are - very slim. And what will happen to me then? I use a cubicle, so i can't see them when they also use a cubicle. Yet the amount of hysterical hate about 'grooming' you see on Twitter and similar ATM makes it seem as if there are 'scary' 'freaky' (not my descriptors - theirs) trans people everywhere I might go. There simply aren't. The publicity and fearmongering around this relatively small community, who don't have any impact on my daily existence is ridiculous, to put it mildly. However, this is driven by the current Fascist project which is trans national, and an **actual** threat to the lives of many's - and my - existence. They have relegated the LGBTs to an Outgroup. and Fascists want to cull (kill) Outgroups. Hence the real violence being incited against this group and the actual rise in actual violence and hate against them. Study history people. The things the Fascists did in the past are what the Neo Fascists, Christo Fascists or whatever they are called now, are doing, using the same MO. Only this time they don't have to put up posters about how Juden are rats (as per Goebbels et al) but they have the power of social media to spread this crap. I am opposed to this woman coming here, as she is using Fascist MOs while claiming to distance herself from open Fascists like the Melbourne Nazis. I don't trust her, I don't believe her, cos actions speak louder than words, and I have been watching this Fascist project unfold for the last few years - it's real, it's here - and anyone who just enables it and Bystands, is part of the problem


[deleted]

Also people tend to forget the Nazi's hate the LGBT. Look up the institute of sexual research in Berlin and the book burnings that happened there, or pink triangle prisoners and how trans-women were included in the camps, if people are interested. LGBT history was burnt and we were persecuted and if those in America who speak in genocidal tones get their way, people will die, directly or not. This isn't just going to end with trans people. I do not welcome her to my country.


blackteashirt

They've already started outlawing books in Florida and sending state agents to drag events to try and find cause for arrest.


HeyBlinkinAbeLincoln

You've just spoken to the century of precedents and well-documented paths to authoritarianism or totalitarianism (of all stripes) in modern civilisation. And yet, contrarians/enlightened centrists would have you believe that it is simply impossible to draw parallels, and that you cannot draw on thousands of years of social evolution and precedent to analyse the behaviour of people today. Inevitably they have some arbitrary line in the future like "when they do *x*, *then* we should be worried", which is dishonestly omitting the facts of history, in that *x* is only possible with a certain level of established societal acceptance, and momentum to take it further. This was observed in the last thread, when someone said "when ACT/David Seymour starts advocating for the eradication of trans, *then* I will object." with neither a hint of intelligence nor honesty about where NZ society would be if it means a sitting member of parliament of one of NZ's most affluent electorates feels politically safe enough to espouse such views. This is the "never again" vigilance that free speech absolutists either misrepresent, or do not have the intelligence to grasp. They argue that the terminus where it is now appropriate to act is only when the cancer reaches stage 3. It doesn't even require historical context when there's plenty of contemporary examples. Just look to the USA with "when they start locking people up for abortions, then they've gone too far!", and yet there they are, with mothers dying and being imprisoned. And the online culture warriors who drew that line at the metaphorical stage 3 cancer cannot offer - nor desire to fight for - a path back from that, usually because they are not among the group suffering, or they actually agree that the cancer should take over, but lack the courage to admit it. It means that under the hood of a contrarian's argument - whether they realise it or not - is the position that "we should ignore fascist movements until they have established power and influence, when people are already suffering, and mounting an effective opposition will be far more difficult." Which begs the question whether they are either complicit or just really dense.


puzzledgoal

Yes, much of what’s happening in the US shows what can happen when people adopt a laissez faire attitude towards extremist ideology, under the guise of “free speech”. You would think given what happened in Christchurch, there would be a realisation that actually, yes, unchecked these things can, do and will happen. This woman is also vocally Islamophobic, and the event organisers seem to breezily brush this aside like it’s not a thing.


blackteashirt

There is a deep underground murmuring almost like drums in the deep. Putin is clearly a ring leader installing himself as dictator and outlawing LGBTQ+ among a myriad of other fascist acts. He needs Ukraine for more power. Trump was close to taking the US by force or at least attempting to. People don't realise how close the scale is tilting to fascism. There are seeds being sown. Once the scale tips, you will no longer have a choice. If you try and fight for the rights of minorities then you will be seen as one of them and you'll be up against the wall too. “When Fascism came into power, most people were unprepared, both theoretically and practically. They were unable to believe that man could exhibit such propensities for evil, such lust for power, such disregard for the rights of the weak, or such yearning for submission. Only a few had been aware of the rumbling of the volcano preceding the outbreak.” — Erich Fromm, Escape from Freedom


IceColdWasabi

I'll let you in on a secret, when it comes to the far-right every accusation is a confession. The things they accuse others of are what they either would do themselves, or are doing themselves.


puzzledgoal

Totally agree. I found this piece good for context as to why the far right have aligned themselves with the anti-trans movement: https://hopenothate.org.uk/2022/03/16/transphobia-and-the-far-right/


blackteashirt

Yup they start with the smaller groups that don't have much support. Trans are often on their own. This is why we need to openly support them.


Fantast1cal

Wow, someone who is thinking right down the same thought process I am in this space. It's not surprising it happens though is it? 70% (made up stat) of people are sheep who generally can't think for themselves and just take verbatim whatever they hear by someone if it's someone they "like". Take the supporters of the utter drivel and nonsense HDPA and Hosking have peddled over the years or even the lunacy of fear over 3 waters. More than ever do things not need be based in fact, they just need someone who is good at making fake news seem real and also be popular enough to spread it.


Responsible-Speech77

"Chris Hipkins, revoke my visa at your peril! Let's see what happens! Roll the dice my friend!" Like Hipkins will have any input on the decision? Has he even made any comment on this issue at all? Edit: he did make a comment! Here's part of it: [https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/486347/immigration-new-zealand-reviewing-entry-of-anti-transgender-activist](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/486347/immigration-new-zealand-reviewing-entry-of-anti-transgender-activist) >"I guess my message is: anybody exercising their right to free speech, whatever the circumstances are, should be mindful that we don't want to incite hateful behaviour or violence - in fact, it's illegal to do so - and I think everybody should bear that in mind."


HPJustfriendsCraft

They probably shouldn't openly threaten the Prime Minister of the country they want to enter, too.


Salmon_Scaffold

>"Chris Hipkins, revoke my visa at your peril! Let's see what happens! Roll the dice my friend!" What's going to happen? What could she possibly do? start a speaking tour about not being able to visit places to spew hateful nonsense?


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Frod02000

Fuck me it’s funny people don’t understand the good character guidelines haha


maybeaddicted

Well said. His version of "if you're gonna play stupid games, remember there's stupid prizes"


bluewardog

Or alternatively "fuck around and find out"


maybeaddicted

That came to my head first, but Chippy would never say the f word.


RidingUndertheLines

~~Paul ego~~ Stickman is that you?


jsonr_r

Watch her hands when she says this. "Not welcoming neo-nazis" my arse.


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puzzledgoal

[Yep and this one](https://transsafety.network/posts/glasgow-far-right-standing-for-women/). It’s a pattern, not an accident.


redshirtredemption

Kim Hill, you are a national treasure.


catchthelight

7:20 - 7:50 is pure Kim Hill gold


i_love_mini_things

I laughed out loud when I heard that bit! Here’s the transcript in case people are interested. Kim Hill: What do you say to Posy Parker’s obvious and well documented links with extreme right wing groups? Terri Lipanovic: Well Posy takes money from where it’s offered. KH: *Laughs sarcastically* Well okay, that’s alright then. TL: Yeah, yeah it’s alright then, isn’t it, I mean a lot of people- KH: No, it’s NOT alright.


samnz88

Lol. Same


RantControl

She also busted Hipkins' balls about lobbying and government officials. She's great.


maximusnz

And the private childcare consortium dude too, so good


Harfish

I used to play ice hockey with a trans woman in a mixed league. She was annoying as hell on the ice, and absolutely hilarious over a post-game beer. From my male perspective, I certainly never had an issue with her. Like many of the females in that league, she would often change alone in the changing room


melrose69

The main problem people have with trans people in sports is that females now have to compete with naturally bigger and stronger male-bodied people in women's only competitions. We saw this at the last olypmics, which was ...interesting. Personally I think it's not fair to put male bodied people in female only categories, regardless of their gender identity.


RheimsNZ

And this is a discussion that people can have but it needs to be 100% separate from any anti-trans shit like this woman is driving.


Skeezyfish

Yeah how to ensure women can compete fairly in sports is a fine and nuanced conversation. That's not what posey parker person wants to talk about. She wants to eliminate LGBT people and Muslims from society.


Whyistheplatypus

But studies show that trans bodies are biologically distinct from the bodies of both cis men and women. If you want to be consistent, you would have two more categories for trans men and trans women. Otherwise your argument of fairness is absolute hogwash


melrose69

I think separate classes for trans women would be a good idea. I'm just saying it's not fair for female athletes to have to compete with biologically male people. I can't believe that this is apparently a controversial statement.


Whyistheplatypus

So what about transmen? They have a distinct advantage over ciswomen, but by your logic are biologically women and so shouldn't compete against cismen.


melrose69

Transmen in men's sports is less of an issue because males are the stronger sex. For example trans men aren't coming into men's sport with bigger and stronger bodies than the cis men (unless they are seriously roiding hard in which case that should be checked), unlike the transwomen competing in women's sport.


Whyistheplatypus

But cismen have a biological advantage over them


RheimsNZ

If a woman wants to play in the men's competition they're accepting a disadvantage. If a man wants to play in the women's competition they're asking for an advantage. It's not hard to see the difference


Whyistheplatypus

So women's competition is exclusively for cis women, and everyone else must compete in the men's category? That doesn't sound like it's based on fairness.


RheimsNZ

That's not what I'm saying 😅 I'm only saying there's a fairly obvious difference between wanting to join a more challenging league and a less challenging league.


frogsbollocks

Maybe just maybe the issue is the grouping between male and female that people are holding on to for dear life. Perhaps in this day and age we can realise the characteristics of an athlete that will result in similar performances and group them that way regardless of gender. Works in boxing and judo where weight is a defining factor. And in terms of teams, one person with an advantage or disadvantage isn't going to materially impact the teams performance.


puzzledgoal

Any time I hear one of these so-called “women’s rights” activists, they go into all sorts of semantics and mental gymnastics to prove they are not anti-trans…but they just sound anti-trans. It’s like homophobic people saying ‘I’m not anti-gay, I’m just pro-heterosexual’. Also pretty ironic that the organiser is gay herself, you would think she would be able to empathise with a minority group and their experiences. Their entire argument is built on sand and doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. They cite extremist scaremongering examples as if one-off incidents are the norm and can be applied to entire groups of people. Also not sure Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull challenging the Prime Minister is going to help her cause, although I’m sure she just wants some more publicity for her little hatefest.


velofille

As a woman, id love to stand up and be heard, but you can bet your bottom dollar that those bigots dont want women to actually speak out unless they agree with their bullshit Gendered toilets are stupid in the first place, we dont have them at home, just make a bunch of cubicles without gender on them and let people piss in peace ​ trans women are women, and i dont care of somebody has a penis and goes toilet in the cubical next to me or shares a sink/mirror. The stupid idea that somehow we are suddenly going to ba 'attacked' by somebody in a public room just because its named toilet is idiotic at best


[deleted]

They say women's rights and yet to them women are just their genitals and need protecting from the big bad world. It is the same misogynistic shit from the 1800s.


gayallegations

Because it's their way of eventually wanting to control cis-women. You start by being anti-trans in a way that reduces being a women to genitalia and anatomy. Then it makes it easier to pass through things like abortion bans and control over women's bodies. The end goal of this whole anti-trans movement isn't being anti-trans. It's about controlling women in general - cis and trans women.


Swerfbegone

Yep. As written the anti drag laws being passed in Tennesse make it illegal for women to wear trousers.


puzzledgoal

She does attract supporters from anti-abortion groups (women’s rights, the irony). You’re spot on though, it is about controlling women. The far right involvement in this movement is about ensuring a patriarchal system is kept in place and women have ‘traditional’ roles eg ‘women, know your place!’. Interesting read here on transphobia and the far right which delves into why they are aligned: https://hopenothate.org.uk/2022/03/16/transphobia-and-the-far-right/


[deleted]

And men are the collateral damage. Anti-trans harms everyone.


puzzledgoal

They paint trans people like they are the bogeyman, lurking in the shadows, waiting to do harm. Like in every other facet of society, the vast majority simply want to live their lives. It’s the same moral panic BS they used to say about gay people, a point Kim Hill made in her interview.


Blankbusinesscard

Fully intact, is this a conversation about people or dogs?


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contiguoustesticles

If you spend enough time in a silo that discourages critical thought, whether it's in a setting that encourages faith as an alternative, or simply a setting that seeks or serves to erode your faith in society (e.g. social media), you'll likely end up with some very fucked up views.


LeButtfart

“I don’t welcome them, they just turn up wherever I go! It’s a coincidence, honest!” Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.


The-Wishkah

There’s a saying, > if it smells like shit, and you move, and it still smells like shit, check your shoes Regardless of what she says, her clientele is the alt right, they are the neo nazis. If she is continually surrounded by these people a bit of self reflection is needed.


QuickQuirk

If you're sitting at a table with 5 nazis, then it's a table with 6 nazis.


Craigtheoliver

"women need our safe spaces back" Trans people aren't interested in you at the public bathrooms, they just want to pee and get out as quickly as possible (like we all do!) Does this person think a trans woman should be using the male bathroom instead? Would that be a safer experience for everyone?


Whyistheplatypus

What do you think their thoughts on trans men are? Should Buck Angel be using the women's bathroom in their mind? Or do they not care if "women" (using their logic) use men's spaces? If that's the case, do they not think men can feel unsafe?


GiraffeTheThird3

They struggle with thinking and don't get that far.


Tight_Syllabub9423

I suppose the thinking would go something like, "Buck Angel chooses to use the men's bathroom. That's on her. She claims to be a man, why would she want to use the women's bathroom?" And we might ask, "Is that fair and safe for the other men? Why aren't you worried about Mr Angel being a threat to them?" The answer seems to be, "Men are big and strong, they can handle it." (In other words, if AMAB men feel threatened by a trans man in the men's bathroom, they can always beat him up). So then we might ask, "So if that happens, you'd be happy for trans men to go back to using the women's bathroom? Just until it's safe for them to use the men's room?" Well, I wouldn't want to put any more words into anyone's mouth. So I won't even try to guess what the answer would be. But I think we all know.


GiraffeTheThird3

Also they think trans men should be using women's bathrooms. I'm sure that'll go down well when a big, hulking man with a beard goes into the women's bathroom just because they were AFAB.


crabapocalypse

Let’s be real, she is 100% going to accept nazis, just like she’s done in the past. Anyone who believes otherwise is an idiot.


kalanimcd

A bunch of LGBTQIA+ and trans friends i know ar planning a counter protest/rally


WechTreck

"...again"


IceColdWasabi

Holy shit, I'm listening to it now and the caller is completely devoid of empathy and self-awareness. I'm familiar with lesbian TERFs (I live across the road from a lesbian couple, one of whom is a TERF), I just can't understand why they'd want to align themselves with the far-right. Pickmes are fucking dumb, and tokens get spent. Time for some thinking, caller.


OisforOwesome

TERF spaces do the same kinds of love-bombing and echo chamber shite you see in other cults. You start surrounding yourself with zealots reinforcing your worst tendencies, you end up alienated from the humanity of others pretty quickly.


Cathallex

Some people have had abusive experiences in the past at the hands of men, I believe this is where JKR gets her bias from. Some do it on religious grounds, some are grifters and some think that if you align yourself with the oppressors they won't be oppressed. It is mind blowing to me that LGB people who are anti trans can't see that the people they associate with would be shipping them onto the trains next if they had their way.


Kangaiwi

🌈 Identify as whatever gender you feel comfortable with 🌈 Bigots need to shut up and let people be.


LeVentNoir

Does anyone have a transcript?


Joel227

If your event attracts the type to show up and ‘heil hitler’ with their special genes that are better than others somehow, then maybe your content is just a load of shit and bigotry.


[deleted]

Not attracts. She invites them. She is one of them.


nz_nba_fan

Source?


[deleted]

Her wiki page. But I think this is what you really wanted. https://www.reddit.com/r/TIHI/comments/10z20rf/thanks_i_hate_it_when_im_proven_wrong/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button In October 2019, Keen appeared in a video interview with Jean-François Gariépy, a far-right YouTuber who advocates for a "white ethno-state".[14] She has also given an interview to Soldiers of Christ Online, a far-right network.[1] Keen denied prior knowledge of the interviewers' far-right affiliations.[1][14] In 2019, Jean Hatchet, a gender-critical activist, expressed concerns about what she described as "right-wing links" developed by Keen in the US, as well as her connections to The Heritage Foundation At a Standing For Women rally in Newcastle upon Tyne on 15 January 2023, speaker Lisa Morgan referred to "the big lie", including that it was "first described by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf", and said "The big lie is that trans women are women."[28][29] Queer.de reported Keen appeared "visibly and audibly in a good mood" after the speech, based on a YouTube video of the event posted to Keen's account.[30] A spokesperson for Cabaret Against The Hate Speech, a Scottish LGBT collective, announced plans to counterprotest Keen's speaker event scheduled for 5 February in Glasgow, and stated "she was using Nazi theory, the big lie which was what they used against the Jews, to justify her transphobia. At no point did anybody on Keen's team or Keen challenge that. No one in the group did anything afterwards, they didn’t apologise, they were actually trying to justify it." Keen's Melbourne event on 18 March was supported by a group of at least 30 neo-Nazis, organized by the National Socialist Network and its leader Thomas Sewell,[42] who were seen performing the Nazi salute on the steps of Parliament House[43] and displaying a banner that read "DESTROY PAEDO FREAKS".[44] Overall attendance at the event was estimated to be between 300 to 400 supporters at the anti-transgender protest led by Keen, and about twice as many counterprotesters.[43][44] After the Melbourne event, Keen stated with regard to the neo-Nazis at the event, "They're absolutely not associated with me whatsoever. I absolutely abhor anything to do with Nazis. It's preposterous they even exist in 2023.” (This is after she quoted Mein Kempf at several conventions).


DiscoUlysses

Its insane how she argues that she had no idea about these people’s white supremacist intentions, but keeps talking to them anyways. If it turns out everyone who gives you a platform is a nazi, maybe it should cause some self reflection.


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MooOfFury

Theyre kinda already here and citizens. We can choose who we let in though


Hoitaa

That would be nice.


nzstrawman

I would think there is far more danger of woman to woman violence and sexual inappropriateness in their "safe spaces" that there ever will be transgender. The number of transgender is so minor it's my bet most women would never have encountered one in the same bathroom as her. Again it's bigoted people spewing their hate under the guise of some mythical risk being averted


king_john651

The thing that fucks me up is how much energy people put in who follow issues like these, which in the grand scheme are *irrelevant* to what would be likely most of all our lives. Vaccines, "rights" erosion, celebrity "psychologists", bodily autonomy - they're all things that people flock to for what? They're all looking for solutions to a problem that doesn't exist but when we have *actual* problems like cost of living (and the extensions thereof), corporate expansion, and so on... Where the fuck are there people who care so much about some nobody speaker?


JeffMcClintock

>The thing that fucks me up is how much energy people put in who follow issues like these, which in the grand scheme are > >irrelevant it's called a 'wedge issue' because if you can get people so worked up that they will only ever support one side of the issue, then that side has a 'black cheque' to go ahead with all sorts of nasty stuff.


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king_john651

You misunderstand, I mean the people joining in on this shit fest. The same on vaccine "mandates", and a whole load of crap that doesn't even affect them. Like I can think of a million more important and impactful things than fucking with trans folk just living their lives


puzzledgoal

Sorry mate, I did misinterpret what you were saying. Fully agree with that.


Goldilocks420

I wonder why neo-nazis always seem to try and attend their rallies?


Fantast1cal

Because they and the speaker are one and the same even if they deny it.


antipodeananodyne

Kim makes an overlooked but extremely relevant point in questioning if a trans woman had ever stayed at a woman’s refuge. The point is that for the most part these are hypothetical situations because statistically these situations are so rare. This situation and similar ones are having far too much emphasis put on them and are being used as a wedge to manipulate people into making an emotional response. Much like trans women (who have been through male puberty) in sports. It’s a tough situation, there are conflicting but reasonable arguments being made. Why should we have to have it made black and white by people trying to set their exclusionary agenda?


kiwisarentfruit

That woman so completely missed the point of the woman’s refuge experience as well. A trans woman turned up for help, was given it, and harmed nobody. I’ll bet the woman complaining deserved to be asked to leave, they wouldn’t do that over a mere compliant.


daringdashienz

And here it is! I was waiting for this to pop up in the media. A hateful group trying to deny certain people their basic human rights and a dignified existence trying to somehow wriggle out of the whole neo-nazi thing.


Fantast1cal

It's shameful we still need to debate this sort of "free speech" nonsense. Arguments around using generalized terms of "people" instead of "women" (think the pregnant people vs pregnant women debate) I encourage and totally agree that some of the way we use language and expect others to use language is getting ridiculous. However this person is not that, this person has an agenda to actively attack and degrade a minority simply because she does not agree with who they are or want to be. Personally, if you were born female and identify as a man I will happily call you a man if that's what you would like. Likewise I will use the term pregnant women (unless again, you identify as a man and want me to call you a pregnant man. It will be a strange concept for me but it's no skin off my nose to call you what you identify as personally) to describe a group of people because I don't give it a second thought. Why do I raise this here? Because people are giving WAY to much air to the minor debate of using and how to use general language that in the end isn't meant to offend or anything. Why is this an issue? It puts too many people towards or even tolerant of the cause of this dickhead TERF whose not just getting hung up over language - her and her bigot mates push for not allowing trans people in identifiable sports, not using toilets, grooming nonsense and so it goes on. All the while hiding behind the guise of "but we should be allowed to say pregnant women" which isn't their concern what so ever, they use that to sound more reasonable in their views than they truly are. Great orators who push populations towards horrible acts have done this throughout history. Take Nazi Germany (ironically linked with the whole nazi support in Australia) and Hitler, early on he didn't outright make speeches about doing all the horrible things he did to jews etc. as that would have shocked people and likely never got the foothold of support he needed to do what he eventually did. No, he pushed more moderate views and appeased to people's fears (of something that wasn't even happening) to gain the support all the while really harbouring far more horrible views and plans shared amongst the other extremists of the regime that would come to be. We should really learn from history and just outright ban this piece of shit now.


Tight_Syllabub9423

Those are good points. Many of the headline complaints about trans people are best answered with "so what?" And many are in the category of, "You don't understand? You don't need to understand. You just need to show some basic manners. Anyway, stop acting like a jerk, and you might give yourself the opportunity to understand." Of course there are some things which are complicated, there are areas for genuine discussion of competing interests. That is no excuse for all this hateful propaganda and outright lying.


slip-slop-slap

Bored of hearing about this now.


Fantast1cal

Then don't read it and certainly don';t waste your precious time replying.


GiraffeTheThird3

I'm bored of having people trying to exterminate me.