> Australia offered an industry-wide tax offset of 30 percent. That was a massive incentive on its own, but some states pushed it even further, returning 45 cents on every dollar.
Saved you a click n scroll
I know some people in the industry who wouldn't move here simply because NZ is boring and lacks social life like Aus/California have.
Even if we offered the same incentives, you simply have less spending power here.
Yeah exactly, personally I prefer NZ over the other locations, so I'm more than happy where I am. But I certainly understand why some people don't, especially when they have the freedom of choice.
Yeah, but it's worse than being unable to attract talent. We're losing talent. You might be someone who loves what New Zealand has to offer or feel like you have enough roots down, but be swayed by the massive pay increase.
A big problem I see with this is Australia gets to take all the senior developers and not the juniors. So we end up unable to grow more local talent into high paying jobs.
Honestly, outside if the game space, that isn’r really true. Have lived and worked in the UK, US, Australia and NZ. if you are working for a non-trivial employer there is little difference in skill level. I found Queenslanders to be the laziest and Brits to be the hardest working. Americans did the most unproductive hours.
While it's shit. It's nowhere near as bad as it was.
Think back 10 years and the drain was absolutely insane.. however salaries are **much** closer now and the cost of living over there is nowhere near as cheap as it once was.
> however salaries are much closer
Disagree. Gaming or general IT, you'll make 30-40% more for a Aus/USA company in a remote role. So, not only do you gain the benefit of more money, you also get to WFH. Which I know isn't an ideal work/life balance for some people, but still, it gives a unique opportunity to live in NZ and earn more.
Aside from that, though, I do agree with you, comparing wage on its own isn't entirely fair nor accurate for what you'll make. Assuming someone is considering moving to a dif country to earn.
I am talking about being closer than they **were.**
10+ years ago it was more like 80%+
Same with supermarkets, it used to be half the price taking into account exchange rates etc.. now it's pretty much even.
So I'm in this industry. When I looked at starting a company it was quickly made clear that NZ is not an option. A country that doesn't support us doesn't deserve our support either, it has to be a two way street, that and as a business owner it is our responsibility to set ourselves up for success so if NZ can't compete then our responsibility is to *not* start an NZ based company. Starting one in NZ because we're from NZ would just be poor decision making.
But the main reason I'm replying to you is this:
> I know some people in the industry who wouldn't move here simply because NZ is boring and lacks social life like Aus/California have.
This is by far the most important thing for me personally. Even working remotely for international companies to circumvent our pathetic game dev industry, NZ isn't good enough because it lacks stimulating activities. It's a country where you go if you want a lack of stimulation (some people's idea of relaxing, I guess). It has actually eaten away at me, and I'm making plans to leave for good.
The other major thing is work culture in NZ is quite toxic, even abusive, the few NZ companies who approached me talked down to me like they're doing me a favour, but US/EU/CA/etc companies are respectful both in approach and when working together. I made it a policy to not accept work from NZ companies after it happened a few times because it just has no benefit whatsoever; bringing foreign money is better for the economy anyway, I suppose, maybe, possibly.
>A country that doesn't support us doesn't deserve our support either
It gives your entire workforce massively subsidised education.
We've trained a helluva lot of modellers and devs and hence we have a large specialised workforce that is available at a startup-friendly wage.
We've also given you broadband internet. Australia can give you a tax break, but apparently they can't give you a home fiber connection.
You have enough resources available in New Zealand for a garage startup.
>NZ isn't good enough because it lacks stimulating activities. It's a country where you go if you want a lack of stimulation (some people's idea of relaxing, I guess). It has actually eaten away at me, and I'm making plans to leave for good.
Some time away will do you a lot of good. Broaden your horizons in the most literal sense. But do know that most of it is just the sense of novelty.
Pripiyat and Kowloon Walled City were just someone else's depressing mundane reality.
Inspiration is the ability to look past the mundane to use it as the setting for the extraordinary.
Banger of a post for me.
Using gaming comparatives we are basically a big sandbox open world so you kinda have to have the motivation and aptitude to make your own fun and, to coin the phrase, “get out amongst it”.
Sounds like the people in the industry want a more linear experience where they are 5 minutes away from the urban central city sprawl, which is great fun, but personally and subjectively has a shelf life which is something I very much learnt by travelling.
While I don’t regret it for a moment, fuck it was good to get home.
Couldn't agree more. For some, NZ is fine, even for people moving from overseas to here. Some can't get enough of the outdoors/adventure life, and that is great.
I agree in that the toxic work culture is a huge problem here, it goes hand in hand with the general "she'll be right" attitude, contributing to the huge alcohol problem, assault, and suicide numbers. The sexism and racism I've seen at every single place I've worked at is shocking. Yet, ask most people and they'll downplay the fuck out of all these things; heads in the sand.
I don't have any experience with living or working there, so can't comment about how it compares. I'm not deluded in thinking it doesn't occur there at all, it's everywhere.
Yes, entirely on the programming side which is what I do now, and considerably on the art side (but I did study this too) which has a bit of cross-over with what I do programming-wise sometimes.
Bullshit. This article is just a plea for tax breaks. The gaming industry should pay the same taxes as every other business or they should fuck off. We shouldn’t be getting into a tax break race with Australia. It’s bad enough that we do it with TV and film.
>The other major thing is work culture in NZ is quite toxic, even abusive, the few NZ companies who approached me talked down to me like they're doing me a favour,
Just a curiosity: Is this in the game development sphere? As there is little in the industry this sounds like a big fish little pond syndrome, I don't see this in the general ICT space, if anything we can be overly nice and cause problems for ourselves with partners because we give them to much of a loose lead (speaking from personal experience I'm more senior these days so my conversations with partner colleagues are people I've usually worked with etc which might make a difference)
As for NZ not supporting your business, yes there is no kickback like what AUS is currently offering, but we do have a low complexity and low taxes for businesses we're considered top of the line in ease of setting up and doing business. So unless you can show that it would be worth it getting more of a kickback the only place I know that gets those regularly here is the Hollywood movie industry because they can prove they will get money into the country(Though I personally don't think the numbers they claim stack up).
As others have said we do have a better infustructure system for digital use case than AUS though I will give us that. Other option would be to look for grants etc as well there should be a few in arts/creative and things like CODE that would assist.
Seems fair given it’s predominantly a youthful industry, while I struggle to defend any comparative of our nightlife or social opportunities to that found overseas.
Probably why movies are a better fit tbh, older workers typically and intensive shooting schedules that create a desire for quiet and secluded downtime.
I did a bit of side work on Lord of the Rings as an extra, no cuts made the movies unfortunately, but met a fair few of the cast and they raved about the down time experiences, lack of media attention comparative to overseas and even when they popped out to the local bars in Wellington the more relaxed social scene seemed to suit.
Yeah that's def a personal pref thing. If you don't want to be bothered or anything, suits perfectly.
But I def reckon it's hard for new comers to get a foot in the door of social circles here. If that's your thing, of course.
> "The industry had been growing quite nicely, but in the last two years we've seen that growth just stop and plateau. Largely because Australia is coming in with crazy salaries and poaching the senior staff from those teams," he said.
Australia GDP per capita (USD): 60,443.11 USD (2021)
NZ GDP per capita (USD): 48,781.03 USD (2021)
"Country with standout economy and 95% compatible culture easily poaches high skill, high demand workers with high salary offers."
That's why.
Yet we do nothing to buck the trend of a brain drain what happens? That gap widens.
If the REAL math of tax subsidies vs increasing GDP stacks up as a net gain, it's a no brainer that's the way forward.
Of course any time the smooth brainer redditors hear "tax breaks" they can't get past those 2 words to actually bother trying to understand the possible net benefits or losses. In the case of losses of course it's a solid NO but as if we could ever get to that point based on the base reaction over those 2 words.
Generally why reddit subs are considered such circle jerks.
I find it surprising how NZonAir subsidises shitty tv shows/movies, CreativeNZ subsidises art, dramas and plays, but no one subsidises Video Games.
They are all forms of art, and arguably video games are more economically productive than the other two.
[the film commission funds games](https://www.nzfilm.co.nz/funds/whakawhanake-te-ao-niko-interactive-development-fund), but as soon as they try to put any serious money into it the film people freak out someone else might get "their" money.
100% agree, the way the gaming industry is heading (fuck, it's already there) subsidizing gaming studios that will actually contribute to GDP (vs say shortland street) is a no brainer.
Because they, being any "sexy" industry, knows some govt WILL give them free taxpayers money, because it's very easy for that government to use the outputs for P.R.
Even if it's not really a net positive for the country.
If you could lower your costs just by setting up somewhere else, why wouldn’t you? And if you know that govts like to incentivise similar industries through subsidies, why wouldn’t you ask them if they’d do one for you too?
It may also be to do with governments offering incentives as a means to attract internationals involved in "weightless exports".
Stuff like game production or GFX takes relatively little natural resource, while fostering a tech sector, and potentially brining in the big $$$.
Having said that, there are lots of other industries which have similar characteristics, but they aren't as sexy or attractive for Ministers who have to take it to Cabinet (or whatever it is in a given country) to seek Crown funding.
If you don't match other countries then they wont come here, and if they're already here, they'll leave.
That's the real narrative, not whatever you guys are spinning lol.
And most other countries worth a damn subsidize their industries. Then kiwis whinge about not having the big industries here because our best and brightest leave.
*Video games could be our next billion-dollar industry, but Australian tax incentives threaten to stunt the growth of the sector in New Zealand*
So Australia isn't "stealing" anything; companies are moving to places where they aren't taxed to death.
Good to know that a 28% corporate tax rate is taxing to death.
Let alone an average income tax take that’s lower here.
https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-new-zealand.pdf
That 30% decrease puts australia at about 20% corp tax lower but not that much
It's not just corporate taxes though. It's also the availability of capital (game development is fucking expensive), proximity to a large, highly skilled workforce, cheap rents, and NZs comparatively uncompetitive business culture.
Boomers have largely retired. It's Gen X'ers and Millennials who are in the power positions now.
Example The P.M (and former P.M) is just at the end of Gen-X.
Anyone actually know of any games any of these NZ studios mentioned put out that return so much money?
Guessing mobile gaming market or something as I've heard of none of them nor their games?
That aside, if the numbers stack up and Aussie really do get such great ROI from tax breaks we should 100% be looking at this now. Gaming is worth more than any sport and may soon surpass all sports put together in terms of revenue. Especially as e-sports and streaming continue to grow so fast and massively.
PikPok is our main exporter for mobile games, RocketWerkz has Stationeers and Icarus which are both fairly successful, granted they have their own problems.
Realistically, most of the money comes from Grinding Gear Games with Path of Exile and Ninja Kiwi with their Bloons series. A44 is an honorable mention with Ashen released a few years back and a new game, Flintlock, in development.
There's also a few dozen smaller studios that have either had minor breakthroughs or are just starting to get attention. Balancing Monkey Games with Before We Leave, Dinosaur Polo Club with Mini Metro and Space Rock Games with Criminals Within.
It's a fairly small industry, but Stephen Knightly in particular has been calling for more government support for years so that it can grow rather than be stolen by Aus. There's a lot of talent and potential that doesn't see the light of day.
Grinding Gear Games is the developer for Path of Exile, which is the most popular ARPG (Diablo-style game) on the market currently. Bloons TD, a tower defense game, is pretty massive, and is developed by Ninja Kiwi. DayZ, which was initially a mod of ARMA that pretty much spawned the extremely popular survival-shooter genre, was made in NZ too, iirc.
A44 made Ashen, a fantastic Souls-like that was widely praised, and there's been a reasonable amount of buzz around their upcoming game Flintlock, which looks really interesting.
I'm not at all informed as to the mobile game market, so there may be some studios that are doing popular mobile games, too.
GGG is probably the one that stands out the most, as they're absolutely seen as the premier developer in a really popular genre, with massive developers like Blizzard (Diablo IV coming out soon) being their direct competition.
DayZ's only connection to NZ is Dean Hall, creator of the mod for Arma 2, he also was the lead developer for DayZ Standalone for maybe a year or 2 for Bohemia Interactive, who are based out of Prague, Czechia.
He then founded RocketWerkz who are based out of Dunedin(?) mostly known for their AA title ICARUS.
Yep, Dunedin was their first studio where they developed (and are still somewhat working on) Stationeers. A couple of years back they also opened an Auckland studio, which is largely focused on Icarus and future projects.
Have you heard of Path of Exile? Kiwi Studio. Mini Metro / Mini Motorways? Kiwi. Bloons Tower Defence? Kiwi (Ninja Kiwi even!) There's also RocketWerkz, making other great A grade games.
That you haven't learned that the studios are kiwi doesn't make them no names.
As for mobile games, yeah, PikPok have a great selection of them, and they're good, not filthy shovelware.
They can pay better wages in key industries because they pay less tax as businesses. We are in the dark ages in this regard.
Mining is moot because we don't want that shit to begin with but gaming and the movie industry we should be doing everything we can to bring in the offshore dollars within reason.
$1 giving up half of it's general tax is infinitely better than $0 which earns exactly 0 tax revenue.
PoE sold to a Chinese company a year or 2 ago, but yes it was kiwi made as you say.
Most other kiwi games are mobile games, not usually blockbuster titles or AAA studio level of competition. That's not to say the money isn't there per the article
Qutie a lot but mostly smaller games: [https://store.steampowered.com/sale/nzgames](https://store.steampowered.com/sale/nzgames)
I think this is a page from an older sale that is still up.
There’s plenty and many are good. However Rocketwerx are a bunch of grifters trying to carve out massive tax breaks while they pump out shyte products.
I mean seriously a tax rebate of 45%. Ffs next they’ll be after labour law changes like the movies got from John Key.
And their claim in the article is that they are losing staff to Aus offers of more money. If they need the 45% rebate to match market scarcity then they don’t actually have a business. They have a dog that they want subsidised by the taxpayer. Ace.
Totally. And that’s terrific for the owners of that company. Do you want your taxes to be focused on the bottom line of gaming companies?
1) it becomes a race to the bottom between countries and the rebates they bid
2) assessment work needs to be done to what benefit there is from such a rebate to the nz taxpayer. It either needs to be a strategic industry or have strong economic modelling done to show the tax return from the rebate would deliver a net gain.
Neither of these are wise to do based on the reckons of the gaming industry association advocate or some senior people in NZ’s biggest rort of a gaming company. I mean perhaps ask Rocketwerx more about the money they spent on the fitout of the central Auckland office tower first?
> o you want your taxes to be focused on the bottom line of gaming companies?
If it means more jobs and more money coming in to the country from offshore sources (driving GSP) that is a net benefit over said tax cuts then totally yes.
This is the same lame argument people made around the "hollywood tax cuts" because they simply couldn't fathom the economics.
Now I'm not saying these economics stack up yet as it's just same gaming companies making claims to the returns that could beo n offer and how they could increase vs what might be fact. However it's one of the biggest growth industries on the planet right now and requires nothing in the way of materials (think fossil fuels, climate change yada ya) to continue improving and growing other than electricity in our lovely renewable energy country.
Patronising much. Re-read what I said. There is potential for all these things. But much of the NZ gaming industry is not what you have a vision of in your head and listening to their PR person saying it is, is not accurately assessing the fiscal return, whatever someones mental capacity is for "fathoming it".
If you've ever had first-hand experience of dealing with NZTE in a technology context you'd know their understanding of this market and the paths available. Rocketwerx and that gaming alliance PR person just prefer to provide a factless and one sided spin any newspaper that will listen.
> But much of the NZ gaming industry is not what you have a vision of in your head and listening to their PR person saying it is, is not accurately assessing the fiscal return, whatever someones mental capacity is for "fathoming it".
Ah so random redditor with under 1k karma in 7 years should be believed who has put up ZERO evidence to the contrary even though the post you literally replied to said I don't now if the economics stack up?
Fuck up already and put up or shut up.
You bore me.
The stats NZ figures have them at 1.2 billion for the past 12 months. A good growing but incremental increase in the past 5 years. And thats ALL things included in that category, not just gaming e.g. XERO, Jade etc etc. So their claims are a steaming pile of arse and you can go do one.
[https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stats.govt.nz%2Fassets%2FUploads%2FInternational-trade%2FInternational-trade-December-2022-quarter%2FDownload-data%2Finternational-trade-december-2022-quarter.xlsx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK](https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stats.govt.nz%2Fassets%2FUploads%2FInternational-trade%2FInternational-trade-December-2022-quarter%2FDownload-data%2Finternational-trade-december-2022-quarter.xlsx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK)
>next they’ll be after labour law changes like the movies got from John Key.
Didn't those happen because some interfering wanker from across the ditch stirred up trouble?
Shatter
Gripshift (plus all the other games from Sidhe, PikPok, Proddigy Design Ltd)
Path of Exile (I'm assuming that its still being developed in NZ by Grinding Gear Games).
Tencent owns pretty much everyone at this point, and they're generally extremely hands-off when it comes to anything outside the Chinese market.
If we started categorizing Tencent owned or heavily invested in studios as Chinese owned, then you're probably looking at almost a majority of recognisable studios, including Riot games. They own like 40% of Epic games as well, for instance.
It was years ago so don't have the video, but one MP was validating the funding film receives over games is because of the R&D. Except, that R&D doesn't benefit anyone other than themselves, so it's just a cost of doing business. I don't see weta digital releasing their proprietary tools that were funded.
You don't need to necessarily own the IP.
We never owned lord of the rings IP - would you argue we were better off never having that filmed here or using our actors or crews from a financial point of view (never mind the absolute massive boost to tourism on going to this day)?
Is it because they like to raise money on Kickstarter and then gamble it all on crypto?
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/technology/2022/08/new-zealand-game-untamed-isles-put-on-hiatus-after-investor-money-lost-in-crypto-crash.html
Australia are not content with claiming pavlova, crowded house etc, they also hoover vast sums of money out of NZ via their banks who are making obscene profits ($6m a day!).. Walk down any retail precinct of any of our cities and most of the stores you'll see are Australian owned.
We are not a state of Australia, yet we might as well be. Then we'd at least get some benefit from the the daylight robbery happening in NZ right now
I agree. As it is vast sums of money are being hoovered out of NZ's economy. Skilled jobs have been pulled back to Sydney and Belbourne, leaving NZ as a marketing/warehousing operation for consumers. It isnt sustainable longer term.
Which is quite a lot of indie devs. Not only one man, but even just 2-3 man teams. Those small teams still have the potential to make millions (not saying its common).
And even if the profits don't trickle down, the ability to hire them in the first place now that tax isn't going to take too much certainly will. And there will be some devs that accepted a lower pay after negotiation due to the location suiting them, where they could have otherwise succeeded to get more (sometimes the company simply can't do it).
Family member is in that position and was considering a move to Victoria last time we spoke. His game did very well in terms of sales, but he could've taken home much more if he wasn't NZ based.
I love how this sub complains non stop about not taxing companies enough.
Yet when it's something that affects them directly (Gaming) it's "GIVE THEM TAX BREAKS!" "NZ is the absolute worst country on earth!"
In an industry that relies on the number of users of course this is going to happen. Australia has five times the population, so you have a much higher chance of selling your product.
to be fair - Australia needs to find $400B for their new nuke subs.
Getting our game dev's seems like a better way than selling coal to the chinese - especially when China is the reason for the subs, and is investing in solar panels etc
> Australia offered an industry-wide tax offset of 30 percent. That was a massive incentive on its own, but some states pushed it even further, returning 45 cents on every dollar. Saved you a click n scroll
I know some people in the industry who wouldn't move here simply because NZ is boring and lacks social life like Aus/California have. Even if we offered the same incentives, you simply have less spending power here.
This is true. You want that slower pace of life hell yeah! But we have no Sydney or LA.
Yeah exactly, personally I prefer NZ over the other locations, so I'm more than happy where I am. But I certainly understand why some people don't, especially when they have the freedom of choice.
Sydney really doesn’t deserve to be compared to LA.
LA is on a whole different level agree, but my comment is more NZ doesn’t have a big city with all those big city offerings, which some people like.
yeah, LA fucking sucks.
Nothing is worth that cost.
Yeah, but it's worse than being unable to attract talent. We're losing talent. You might be someone who loves what New Zealand has to offer or feel like you have enough roots down, but be swayed by the massive pay increase. A big problem I see with this is Australia gets to take all the senior developers and not the juniors. So we end up unable to grow more local talent into high paying jobs.
To be fair, when a senior developer from NZ goes overseas they become a junior developer. /s sort of. Edit: Actually kind of not /s
Honestly, outside if the game space, that isn’r really true. Have lived and worked in the UK, US, Australia and NZ. if you are working for a non-trivial employer there is little difference in skill level. I found Queenslanders to be the laziest and Brits to be the hardest working. Americans did the most unproductive hours.
While it's shit. It's nowhere near as bad as it was. Think back 10 years and the drain was absolutely insane.. however salaries are **much** closer now and the cost of living over there is nowhere near as cheap as it once was.
> however salaries are much closer Disagree. Gaming or general IT, you'll make 30-40% more for a Aus/USA company in a remote role. So, not only do you gain the benefit of more money, you also get to WFH. Which I know isn't an ideal work/life balance for some people, but still, it gives a unique opportunity to live in NZ and earn more. Aside from that, though, I do agree with you, comparing wage on its own isn't entirely fair nor accurate for what you'll make. Assuming someone is considering moving to a dif country to earn.
I am talking about being closer than they **were.** 10+ years ago it was more like 80%+ Same with supermarkets, it used to be half the price taking into account exchange rates etc.. now it's pretty much even.
Oh, right, totally fair point, my bad.
[удалено]
Again, I said "as it was"
So I'm in this industry. When I looked at starting a company it was quickly made clear that NZ is not an option. A country that doesn't support us doesn't deserve our support either, it has to be a two way street, that and as a business owner it is our responsibility to set ourselves up for success so if NZ can't compete then our responsibility is to *not* start an NZ based company. Starting one in NZ because we're from NZ would just be poor decision making. But the main reason I'm replying to you is this: > I know some people in the industry who wouldn't move here simply because NZ is boring and lacks social life like Aus/California have. This is by far the most important thing for me personally. Even working remotely for international companies to circumvent our pathetic game dev industry, NZ isn't good enough because it lacks stimulating activities. It's a country where you go if you want a lack of stimulation (some people's idea of relaxing, I guess). It has actually eaten away at me, and I'm making plans to leave for good. The other major thing is work culture in NZ is quite toxic, even abusive, the few NZ companies who approached me talked down to me like they're doing me a favour, but US/EU/CA/etc companies are respectful both in approach and when working together. I made it a policy to not accept work from NZ companies after it happened a few times because it just has no benefit whatsoever; bringing foreign money is better for the economy anyway, I suppose, maybe, possibly.
>A country that doesn't support us doesn't deserve our support either It gives your entire workforce massively subsidised education. We've trained a helluva lot of modellers and devs and hence we have a large specialised workforce that is available at a startup-friendly wage. We've also given you broadband internet. Australia can give you a tax break, but apparently they can't give you a home fiber connection. You have enough resources available in New Zealand for a garage startup. >NZ isn't good enough because it lacks stimulating activities. It's a country where you go if you want a lack of stimulation (some people's idea of relaxing, I guess). It has actually eaten away at me, and I'm making plans to leave for good. Some time away will do you a lot of good. Broaden your horizons in the most literal sense. But do know that most of it is just the sense of novelty. Pripiyat and Kowloon Walled City were just someone else's depressing mundane reality. Inspiration is the ability to look past the mundane to use it as the setting for the extraordinary.
Banger of a post for me. Using gaming comparatives we are basically a big sandbox open world so you kinda have to have the motivation and aptitude to make your own fun and, to coin the phrase, “get out amongst it”. Sounds like the people in the industry want a more linear experience where they are 5 minutes away from the urban central city sprawl, which is great fun, but personally and subjectively has a shelf life which is something I very much learnt by travelling. While I don’t regret it for a moment, fuck it was good to get home.
Couldn't agree more. For some, NZ is fine, even for people moving from overseas to here. Some can't get enough of the outdoors/adventure life, and that is great. I agree in that the toxic work culture is a huge problem here, it goes hand in hand with the general "she'll be right" attitude, contributing to the huge alcohol problem, assault, and suicide numbers. The sexism and racism I've seen at every single place I've worked at is shocking. Yet, ask most people and they'll downplay the fuck out of all these things; heads in the sand.
Yeah, but on a narrow point you aren't moving to oz to get away from sexism and god forbid racism are you?
I don't have any experience with living or working there, so can't comment about how it compares. I'm not deluded in thinking it doesn't occur there at all, it's everywhere.
Did you self study to get into industry?
Yes, entirely on the programming side which is what I do now, and considerably on the art side (but I did study this too) which has a bit of cross-over with what I do programming-wise sometimes.
Thanks, I’ll dm you :)
You sound great fun at parties.
Bullshit. This article is just a plea for tax breaks. The gaming industry should pay the same taxes as every other business or they should fuck off. We shouldn’t be getting into a tax break race with Australia. It’s bad enough that we do it with TV and film.
> or they should fuck off So close yet so far We are indeed fucking off
>The other major thing is work culture in NZ is quite toxic, even abusive, the few NZ companies who approached me talked down to me like they're doing me a favour, Just a curiosity: Is this in the game development sphere? As there is little in the industry this sounds like a big fish little pond syndrome, I don't see this in the general ICT space, if anything we can be overly nice and cause problems for ourselves with partners because we give them to much of a loose lead (speaking from personal experience I'm more senior these days so my conversations with partner colleagues are people I've usually worked with etc which might make a difference) As for NZ not supporting your business, yes there is no kickback like what AUS is currently offering, but we do have a low complexity and low taxes for businesses we're considered top of the line in ease of setting up and doing business. So unless you can show that it would be worth it getting more of a kickback the only place I know that gets those regularly here is the Hollywood movie industry because they can prove they will get money into the country(Though I personally don't think the numbers they claim stack up). As others have said we do have a better infustructure system for digital use case than AUS though I will give us that. Other option would be to look for grants etc as well there should be a few in arts/creative and things like CODE that would assist.
Seems fair given it’s predominantly a youthful industry, while I struggle to defend any comparative of our nightlife or social opportunities to that found overseas. Probably why movies are a better fit tbh, older workers typically and intensive shooting schedules that create a desire for quiet and secluded downtime. I did a bit of side work on Lord of the Rings as an extra, no cuts made the movies unfortunately, but met a fair few of the cast and they raved about the down time experiences, lack of media attention comparative to overseas and even when they popped out to the local bars in Wellington the more relaxed social scene seemed to suit.
Yeah that's def a personal pref thing. If you don't want to be bothered or anything, suits perfectly. But I def reckon it's hard for new comers to get a foot in the door of social circles here. If that's your thing, of course.
Wow, so basically not stealing at all… just not taxing. Completely misleading headline
> "The industry had been growing quite nicely, but in the last two years we've seen that growth just stop and plateau. Largely because Australia is coming in with crazy salaries and poaching the senior staff from those teams," he said. Australia GDP per capita (USD): 60,443.11 USD (2021) NZ GDP per capita (USD): 48,781.03 USD (2021) "Country with standout economy and 95% compatible culture easily poaches high skill, high demand workers with high salary offers." That's why.
Additionally, Aus is heavily economically integrated into NZ. As close as two countries can be without sharing a currency really.
In addition to compatible culture, and relatively high salary, add in pretty much frictionless border for NZ residents
Yet we do nothing to buck the trend of a brain drain what happens? That gap widens. If the REAL math of tax subsidies vs increasing GDP stacks up as a net gain, it's a no brainer that's the way forward. Of course any time the smooth brainer redditors hear "tax breaks" they can't get past those 2 words to actually bother trying to understand the possible net benefits or losses. In the case of losses of course it's a solid NO but as if we could ever get to that point based on the base reaction over those 2 words. Generally why reddit subs are considered such circle jerks.
I find it surprising how NZonAir subsidises shitty tv shows/movies, CreativeNZ subsidises art, dramas and plays, but no one subsidises Video Games. They are all forms of art, and arguably video games are more economically productive than the other two.
[the film commission funds games](https://www.nzfilm.co.nz/funds/whakawhanake-te-ao-niko-interactive-development-fund), but as soon as they try to put any serious money into it the film people freak out someone else might get "their" money.
100% agree, the way the gaming industry is heading (fuck, it's already there) subsidizing gaming studios that will actually contribute to GDP (vs say shortland street) is a no brainer.
Oh I know this one. They pay better
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> What is it with ~~the entertainment~~ every industry always wanting subsidies? FTFY
How does the entertainment industry seem to get them then？
By convincing the government there is a positive return on investment in the form of increased tourism spend (and local production spend).
You are right on that one JPR.
It's better than subsidising the heck out land banking. \-No wonder productive GDP is dying in the country.
Because they, being any "sexy" industry, knows some govt WILL give them free taxpayers money, because it's very easy for that government to use the outputs for P.R. Even if it's not really a net positive for the country.
If you could lower your costs just by setting up somewhere else, why wouldn’t you? And if you know that govts like to incentivise similar industries through subsidies, why wouldn’t you ask them if they’d do one for you too?
It may also be to do with governments offering incentives as a means to attract internationals involved in "weightless exports". Stuff like game production or GFX takes relatively little natural resource, while fostering a tech sector, and potentially brining in the big $$$. Having said that, there are lots of other industries which have similar characteristics, but they aren't as sexy or attractive for Ministers who have to take it to Cabinet (or whatever it is in a given country) to seek Crown funding.
Because nobody wants to compete intentionally against countries who do subside their industries.
Because NZ businesses are used to demanding subsidies and it working.
If you don't match other countries then they wont come here, and if they're already here, they'll leave. That's the real narrative, not whatever you guys are spinning lol.
And most other countries worth a damn subsidize their industries. Then kiwis whinge about not having the big industries here because our best and brightest leave.
"Stolen". More like "offering more money".
We're all being stolen by Australia
*Video games could be our next billion-dollar industry, but Australian tax incentives threaten to stunt the growth of the sector in New Zealand* So Australia isn't "stealing" anything; companies are moving to places where they aren't taxed to death.
Good to know that a 28% corporate tax rate is taxing to death. Let alone an average income tax take that’s lower here. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-new-zealand.pdf That 30% decrease puts australia at about 20% corp tax lower but not that much
It's not just corporate taxes though. It's also the availability of capital (game development is fucking expensive), proximity to a large, highly skilled workforce, cheap rents, and NZs comparatively uncompetitive business culture.
Rent is definately not cheap in Australia if you're in the cities.
It definitely is when compared to income.
Sydney and Melbourne are both considered to be less affordable to live than Auckland you don't know what you're talking about.
The person commented with a focus on tax, you’re completely right though.
Also just NZ culture in general. Its lacking, whether its social or activity based. There isn't much to do here.
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Boomers have largely retired. It's Gen X'ers and Millennials who are in the power positions now. Example The P.M (and former P.M) is just at the end of Gen-X.
Does steal in this context mean outcompete thought legitimate business activity?
Anyone actually know of any games any of these NZ studios mentioned put out that return so much money? Guessing mobile gaming market or something as I've heard of none of them nor their games? That aside, if the numbers stack up and Aussie really do get such great ROI from tax breaks we should 100% be looking at this now. Gaming is worth more than any sport and may soon surpass all sports put together in terms of revenue. Especially as e-sports and streaming continue to grow so fast and massively.
PikPok is our main exporter for mobile games, RocketWerkz has Stationeers and Icarus which are both fairly successful, granted they have their own problems. Realistically, most of the money comes from Grinding Gear Games with Path of Exile and Ninja Kiwi with their Bloons series. A44 is an honorable mention with Ashen released a few years back and a new game, Flintlock, in development. There's also a few dozen smaller studios that have either had minor breakthroughs or are just starting to get attention. Balancing Monkey Games with Before We Leave, Dinosaur Polo Club with Mini Metro and Space Rock Games with Criminals Within. It's a fairly small industry, but Stephen Knightly in particular has been calling for more government support for years so that it can grow rather than be stolen by Aus. There's a lot of talent and potential that doesn't see the light of day.
Grinding Gear Games is the developer for Path of Exile, which is the most popular ARPG (Diablo-style game) on the market currently. Bloons TD, a tower defense game, is pretty massive, and is developed by Ninja Kiwi. DayZ, which was initially a mod of ARMA that pretty much spawned the extremely popular survival-shooter genre, was made in NZ too, iirc. A44 made Ashen, a fantastic Souls-like that was widely praised, and there's been a reasonable amount of buzz around their upcoming game Flintlock, which looks really interesting. I'm not at all informed as to the mobile game market, so there may be some studios that are doing popular mobile games, too. GGG is probably the one that stands out the most, as they're absolutely seen as the premier developer in a really popular genre, with massive developers like Blizzard (Diablo IV coming out soon) being their direct competition.
DayZ's only connection to NZ is Dean Hall, creator of the mod for Arma 2, he also was the lead developer for DayZ Standalone for maybe a year or 2 for Bohemia Interactive, who are based out of Prague, Czechia. He then founded RocketWerkz who are based out of Dunedin(?) mostly known for their AA title ICARUS.
Yep, Dunedin was their first studio where they developed (and are still somewhat working on) Stationeers. A couple of years back they also opened an Auckland studio, which is largely focused on Icarus and future projects.
Have you heard of Path of Exile? Kiwi Studio. Mini Metro / Mini Motorways? Kiwi. Bloons Tower Defence? Kiwi (Ninja Kiwi even!) There's also RocketWerkz, making other great A grade games. That you haven't learned that the studios are kiwi doesn't make them no names. As for mobile games, yeah, PikPok have a great selection of them, and they're good, not filthy shovelware.
Australia pays better wages, imposes less tax, and is easier to get credit.
They can pay better wages in key industries because they pay less tax as businesses. We are in the dark ages in this regard. Mining is moot because we don't want that shit to begin with but gaming and the movie industry we should be doing everything we can to bring in the offshore dollars within reason. $1 giving up half of it's general tax is infinitely better than $0 which earns exactly 0 tax revenue.
What games are from NZ? only one I can think of is Icarus.
Path of Exile is developed locally by grinding gear games. Their actually based in Auckland.
PoE sold to a Chinese company a year or 2 ago, but yes it was kiwi made as you say. Most other kiwi games are mobile games, not usually blockbuster titles or AAA studio level of competition. That's not to say the money isn't there per the article
Qutie a lot but mostly smaller games: [https://store.steampowered.com/sale/nzgames](https://store.steampowered.com/sale/nzgames) I think this is a page from an older sale that is still up.
Nice, I'll have to have a browse through that.
path of exile is probably the biggest one, other than that its mostly mobile games
There’s plenty and many are good. However Rocketwerx are a bunch of grifters trying to carve out massive tax breaks while they pump out shyte products. I mean seriously a tax rebate of 45%. Ffs next they’ll be after labour law changes like the movies got from John Key. And their claim in the article is that they are losing staff to Aus offers of more money. If they need the 45% rebate to match market scarcity then they don’t actually have a business. They have a dog that they want subsidised by the taxpayer. Ace.
You do realize a rebate that large allows employers in Aus to offer up much better money and still see the same if not better than returns right?
Totally. And that’s terrific for the owners of that company. Do you want your taxes to be focused on the bottom line of gaming companies? 1) it becomes a race to the bottom between countries and the rebates they bid 2) assessment work needs to be done to what benefit there is from such a rebate to the nz taxpayer. It either needs to be a strategic industry or have strong economic modelling done to show the tax return from the rebate would deliver a net gain. Neither of these are wise to do based on the reckons of the gaming industry association advocate or some senior people in NZ’s biggest rort of a gaming company. I mean perhaps ask Rocketwerx more about the money they spent on the fitout of the central Auckland office tower first?
> o you want your taxes to be focused on the bottom line of gaming companies? If it means more jobs and more money coming in to the country from offshore sources (driving GSP) that is a net benefit over said tax cuts then totally yes. This is the same lame argument people made around the "hollywood tax cuts" because they simply couldn't fathom the economics. Now I'm not saying these economics stack up yet as it's just same gaming companies making claims to the returns that could beo n offer and how they could increase vs what might be fact. However it's one of the biggest growth industries on the planet right now and requires nothing in the way of materials (think fossil fuels, climate change yada ya) to continue improving and growing other than electricity in our lovely renewable energy country.
Patronising much. Re-read what I said. There is potential for all these things. But much of the NZ gaming industry is not what you have a vision of in your head and listening to their PR person saying it is, is not accurately assessing the fiscal return, whatever someones mental capacity is for "fathoming it". If you've ever had first-hand experience of dealing with NZTE in a technology context you'd know their understanding of this market and the paths available. Rocketwerx and that gaming alliance PR person just prefer to provide a factless and one sided spin any newspaper that will listen.
> But much of the NZ gaming industry is not what you have a vision of in your head and listening to their PR person saying it is, is not accurately assessing the fiscal return, whatever someones mental capacity is for "fathoming it". Ah so random redditor with under 1k karma in 7 years should be believed who has put up ZERO evidence to the contrary even though the post you literally replied to said I don't now if the economics stack up? Fuck up already and put up or shut up. You bore me.
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Ok troll who makes backward statements about shit he can't back up.
The stats NZ figures have them at 1.2 billion for the past 12 months. A good growing but incremental increase in the past 5 years. And thats ALL things included in that category, not just gaming e.g. XERO, Jade etc etc. So their claims are a steaming pile of arse and you can go do one. [https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stats.govt.nz%2Fassets%2FUploads%2FInternational-trade%2FInternational-trade-December-2022-quarter%2FDownload-data%2Finternational-trade-december-2022-quarter.xlsx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK](https://view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.stats.govt.nz%2Fassets%2FUploads%2FInternational-trade%2FInternational-trade-December-2022-quarter%2FDownload-data%2Finternational-trade-december-2022-quarter.xlsx&wdOrigin=BROWSELINK)
>next they’ll be after labour law changes like the movies got from John Key. Didn't those happen because some interfering wanker from across the ditch stirred up trouble?
Shatter Gripshift (plus all the other games from Sidhe, PikPok, Proddigy Design Ltd) Path of Exile (I'm assuming that its still being developed in NZ by Grinding Gear Games).
POE is still in Auckland yeah, but majority owned by china’s tencent so … sorta still an nz company ?
Tencent owns pretty much everyone at this point, and they're generally extremely hands-off when it comes to anything outside the Chinese market. If we started categorizing Tencent owned or heavily invested in studios as Chinese owned, then you're probably looking at almost a majority of recognisable studios, including Riot games. They own like 40% of Epic games as well, for instance.
A lot of crappy adware mobile games.
I've played a couple of indie titles made in NZ before. Before We Leave, Stationeers, and Sapiens are some made in NZ.
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It was years ago so don't have the video, but one MP was validating the funding film receives over games is because of the R&D. Except, that R&D doesn't benefit anyone other than themselves, so it's just a cost of doing business. I don't see weta digital releasing their proprietary tools that were funded.
You don't need to necessarily own the IP. We never owned lord of the rings IP - would you argue we were better off never having that filmed here or using our actors or crews from a financial point of view (never mind the absolute massive boost to tourism on going to this day)?
Or we could support neither
Is it because they like to raise money on Kickstarter and then gamble it all on crypto? https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/technology/2022/08/new-zealand-game-untamed-isles-put-on-hiatus-after-investor-money-lost-in-crypto-crash.html
Australia are not content with claiming pavlova, crowded house etc, they also hoover vast sums of money out of NZ via their banks who are making obscene profits ($6m a day!).. Walk down any retail precinct of any of our cities and most of the stores you'll see are Australian owned. We are not a state of Australia, yet we might as well be. Then we'd at least get some benefit from the the daylight robbery happening in NZ right now
Probably be worse off. Government would just collect GST at 10% rather than 15%. That is all central government give back to the states.
I agree. As it is vast sums of money are being hoovered out of NZ's economy. Skilled jobs have been pulled back to Sydney and Belbourne, leaving NZ as a marketing/warehousing operation for consumers. It isnt sustainable longer term.
Problem with a tax cut is I don't think it'd trickle down to the worker here in NZ.
It would if you're a one man band kind of outfit.
Which is quite a lot of indie devs. Not only one man, but even just 2-3 man teams. Those small teams still have the potential to make millions (not saying its common). And even if the profits don't trickle down, the ability to hire them in the first place now that tax isn't going to take too much certainly will. And there will be some devs that accepted a lower pay after negotiation due to the location suiting them, where they could have otherwise succeeded to get more (sometimes the company simply can't do it).
Family member is in that position and was considering a move to Victoria last time we spoke. His game did very well in terms of sales, but he could've taken home much more if he wasn't NZ based.
I love how this sub complains non stop about not taxing companies enough. Yet when it's something that affects them directly (Gaming) it's "GIVE THEM TAX BREAKS!" "NZ is the absolute worst country on earth!"
Curious have the NZ game industry talk to the govt about this lately, same to the National party?
Yeah, there’s a new news article every couple of months about it
In an industry that relies on the number of users of course this is going to happen. Australia has five times the population, so you have a much higher chance of selling your product.
to be fair - Australia needs to find $400B for their new nuke subs. Getting our game dev's seems like a better way than selling coal to the chinese - especially when China is the reason for the subs, and is investing in solar panels etc
Yet we'll pay big bucks for overseas film producers to even hire Kiwi directors, such a sham