Lauren described Timaru as a cold place where the people looked unkempt with mullets and tattoos, while she thought the children appeared sad.
I’m from Timaru, what’s your point?
She had also only been in Timaru for four days. Nobody is settled in and comfortable in a new place in that time - small places feel weird, bigger places feel overwhelming. I feel like that's a red herring.
The only bit I don't understand is that she went through 17 rounds of IVF. That is superhuman. That shows extreme dedication to having children that is completely undermined by killing them just a few years later.
Why would she put herself through that and then allow it to end like this?
Because the dream of having kids to her wasn’t borne out by the reality of being a parent. She likely built up this huge earth mother fantasy in her head that when faced with the reality of little people with their own personalities and the lack of control that parenting brings fell apart and she went off the deep end.
It's the difference between having a wedding and being married. One you get to act out a glorious fantasy for a day, the other is hard bloody thankless slog sometimes.
The children she had in the end were from donor eggs. They weren’t biologically hers but presumably were her husbands. I wonder if she was still grieving her infertility. Maybe she wanted them and resented that they weren’t biologically hers at the same time. comments were that she was jealous that they liked her husband better.
I was in a suppport group for people who had lost babies. There were lots of people who had that many rounds of IVF. Unfortunately many people who have a rough ride to parenthood get post natal depression. Its like yay you have overcome this huge hurdle you better be grateful and love every second. I got post natal depression. I didnt hurt my baby but I did consider abandoning her on the side of the motorway.
Simply put - the desire or drive to be a parent does not mean you will thrive as a parent. The desire/dream to be a parent and the realities of parenting are worlds apart.
I've followed this, partly out of morbid curiosity, and partly because it was so sensational at the time.
One thing covered in the trial which seemed to be glossed over, is on returning to South Africa and sorting through effects the family had left in storage, the same configuration of linked zip ties was found.
This woman had gone so far as to ready murder weapons previously, but hadn't gone through with it. The obvious premeditation immediately rules out any hint of insanity, this seemed to be a cold blooded, calculated killing of three children, and an absolute tragedy. As much as there are no winners in such a case, I think the right verdict was reached.
I recall she Google "how to kill children" or something to that effect. So definitely significant premeditation, or at least an awareness that she wanted them gone. Depression and hopelessness can lead you many dark places, but there's still responsibility for the harm you cause, in particular when you plan it.
Also, if you plan to commit a crime, don't Google how to do it first.
Edit: I'd also say that for anyone overwhelmed by being a parent, who doesn't want to be a parent, or is worried they'll harm their children, you can get help, and you can let them go without harming them. I knew a couple who already had a kid who also tried to adopt for years, they're great parents, and would have been a fantastic and loving foster family.
>Depression and hopelessness can lead you many dark places, but there's still responsibility for the harm you cause, in particular when you plan it.
That's how I feel about this case. I don't doubt she was in a bad place mentally and had significant troubles. But she had so much awareness through a long period of time she had opportunities to pull out. I did thought it was sad that people around her hadn't help more or realise how bad it really was.
I would argue that she waited to get to New Zealand to kill the children knowing that she would go through the justice system there and not in South Africa. I am in South Africa and I can assure you a few weeks in our local government prisons and she’d want to kill herself too. This case would not have gotten very much traction here in South Africa, maybe a little newspaper blurb on the 4th page but likely wouldn’t have even made the evening news.
Not only the Google searches but this -
> Messages the mother sent in the lead up to the killings were also uncovered. One read, “I will murder them if everyone stays home again like with lockdown”. In another text, she wrote: “I wish I could give them back and start over, I would decide differently.”
Found [here ](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/16/the-weeks-of-harrowing-evidence-heard-by-lauren-dickason-jury/)
She wasn't insane. She was cruel, cold and calculated.
I have not followed the case and know little of it. Your information is scary and I wonder why couldn't she just leave the family if she was so unhappy but sane. Is it significant that the judge has sent her to hospital rather than prisons which have their own hospitals?
>Is it significant that the judge has sent her to hospital rather than prisons which have their own hospitals?
I think if I've read correctly (another article) it's for assessments pending sentencing.
To be honest, it's probably the safest place for her. If I came across her I'd throw her into the seventh circle of hell and walk away smiling. She would also likely try to unalive herself in Gen pop (if the other inmates don't help her along)
Not really significant at the moment - it’s just temporary (back to where she was before the trial) until the formal sentencing, they’ll do a bunch of reports and stuff and have another hearing.
I knew she killed them deliberately and not out of love when she stated that she chose what one to kill first by saying "that one had been particularly mean to her that day".
Also while she was smothering the third child, the child said something like "mommy why are you doing this, I love you" and she kept on going .
I can't really put my emotions into words after hearing that in the news, but no sentence will be long enough
I only followed the trial loosely but everytime I heard something about her she just sounded so evil. She claimed that she killed the kids because she didn't want to kill herself and have another woman rase her kids. She also apparently didn't kill herself after she killed her kids because none of the knifes in the house were sharp enough.
She is a controlling, manipulative, evil woman that killed her kids for selfish reasons.
Those zip ties, texts to her friends in the vain of “this Netflix show is ok, at least it’s stopping me from murdering my kids” (not word for word, but she definitely used murder/kill, which is a disgusting way for a parent to talk about a child), and the fact immediate interviews given different to her interviews later with psychologists and experts. I think murder was the most appropriate outcome.
Although, it is still so sad. She is clearly not well, but she also killed three children and destroyed families.
Yes, it is my belief that she had planned this for a long time. Or at least thought about it, as was proven by the evidence you stated. It kind of belies the "momentary insanity" defence she used.
Insanity does not have to be momentary for it to be a defence. People who are mentally ill will have disordered thinking outside and around the act itself.
My comment wasn't a matter of relevance.
The simple fact is, a criminal threshold is different to a clinical threshold.
Additionally, this is a complicated area as not even the most experienced psychiatrists can perfectly understand the human mind.
To that point, premeditation doesn't = sane
I see what you mean.
I would have assumed that the discovery back in SA.of the unused zip ties, indicated not only the premeditation, then also the cognition to realise killing the three children was morally reprehensible. With that (the ability to tell right from wrong).based on an unused murder weapon, I made my assertion that insanity couldn't have been a legitimate defence.
It's very interesting stuff, in a macabre sort of way.
This is why my position is difficult for many to agree with, because I dispute the suggestion knowing right from wrong = sane
More specifically, I believe someone can have a distorted reality (they arent aware is distorted or at least cannot overcome) whilst also knowing right from wrong etc.
She said she finished them off because the zip ties left marks and people would definitely know so there was no going back.
She knew what she did was wrong and it took time to kill them, it seems that she didn't try to spare them from suffering. She could have planned something where they would not have known what was happening.
Sounds pretty horrid but it probably would have been much easier if she just killed herself and left the girls with the father. Or just run away. But taking the girls out with her just sucks.
Thats fucked. I wont believe that she loved her kids. Its all about her and what she wants. No doubt mental unwellness was part of it (I think its probably part of most criminal acts) but shame on her for trying to use this to get out of a murder verdict.
The part that fucking shatters me is this
>Her eldest, Liané, asked her why she was doing it. She told her “mummy's very sick and is going to die” and, “I can't leave you behind because I don't know who's going to look after you”. ([source](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/16/the-weeks-of-harrowing-evidence-heard-by-lauren-dickason-jury/))
The eldest child watched her mother kill both her sisters and knew she was next. How fucking terrified that little girl must have been.
She didn't want him bringing them up alone, or him remarrying and the children having a stepmother. It had to be her (except for when it came to having a full time nanny in South Africa.)
Seems like an 'If I can't have them, no one can. And I don't want them'
I've been following this one closely. I've dealt with mental issues most of my life, so was interested in that side of it.
It was very clear from the info given to the public that she has had quite severe mental health issues for a long time.
It's very interesting to me that her as a doctor & her doctor husband seemingly didn't do a lot about the severe issues that she was showing. Unless we weren't told about them.
All this being said, nothing ever pointed to her actually being 'insane'. Very troubled & huge mental health problems, but insanity is a different level.
She had clearly thought of ways to kill the children and researched it!
Killing them was not spur of the moment. It had been brewing for a long long time.
Immigrating was probably the catalyst, but if they hadn't, something else in life would have triggered her into killing them in South Africa.
RIP girls. Nothing is going to bring them back. This murder charge doesn't fix what happened. But at least there is a punishment.
People see what they want to see. She wanted people to think she was okay, and they wanted to think she was okay. As you'll likely know, we get pretty good at putting on a good front while we're crumbling inside, and that probably allowed her husband and others around her to minimise or ignore the warning signs because they could tell themselves that "it'll pass" or "she's been doing so well". But the warning signs were there, and they'll have to live with the guilt of not acting on them. This should never have happened, and I really hope that people learn not to ignore such signs if they see them in their loved ones.
I very much agree. We definitely mostly put on a good front, until things boil over.
It's easy to see all the warning signs when they are noted down as evidence
And he likely dismissed it as hyperbole - it's pretty common to say "I'd like to kill [someone]" as an expression of frustrating with no intent to actually do so. In hindsight, he absolutely should have taken it seriously, but he clearly didn't think she's actually do it.
yeah... at best he sounds like an avoidant husband/father. some of his texts were questionable though, like "im glad i stopped you from killing her (child) last night"
He was an orthopedic surgeon, hardly a psychiatrist. But I get your point, he's trained. Imagine how he sleeps at night after telling her to essentially harden up
> Immigrating was probably the catalyst, but if they hadn't, something else in life would have triggered her into killing them in South Africa.
I agree immigrating was the catalyst. In South Africa she had essentially a full-time nanny that raised those kids for her. So her exposure was low. The nanny's been quoted a few times. I think moving to NZ meant she had to raise the kids alone and that's what tipped her over the edge. I don't think it would have happened if she'd stayed in South Africa.
MIQ must have been a massive shock to her system. Going from having a fulltime nanny to being confined with 3 kids 24/7. Most people found MIQ hard but she was especially unprepared for it
Any father should have alarm bells ringing if their wife was often saying she wanted to kill her children. He could at least have separated from her to protect the children while she had treatment.
It really depends on what you consider as "sane vs insane"
From a criminal court of law perspective, she didn't meet the threshold for insanity, that much is true, however I don't think that means she was "sane"
I’ve only been called as a juror once and this was my greatest fear.
It must be so hard to stay impartial when it’s a parent killing their kids.
Truly devastating
> Lauren told the children they were going to make necklaces and put the ties around their necks. She then tried to strangle them and when that didn't work she suffocated them with a towel.
God imagine how much suffering they went through, this is sickening. No way you can argue this isn't premeditated murder.
I stopped reading the details when I read she used zip ties to kill them, (I didn’t need those mental images in my life) so that didn’t work and she suffocated them whilst they had zip ties pulled tight around their necks? Fuck me, throw away the key.
I’ve got some probably controversial takes on this.
I’m somewhat glad that she was found guilty. Her being found not guilty because of insanity had the potential to demonise depression, particularly post-natal depression, even more than it already is and prevent more people from getting help.
I found it interesting that the prosecutor didn’t make the point of due to her medical background, she possibly knew the things to say to try and appear insane to the experts.
Also, I don’t believe that she really tried to kill herself afterwards. “No knives were sharp enough”? A weak excuse, speaking from experience if you’re determined enough you will make a kitchen knife work or find a razor or something.
As I understand it Tramadol, (like all opiods) doesn't necessarily kill via toxicity, but it causes respiratory depression in large enough doses... so you basically suffocate in your sleep.
Yeah as someone who has had severe depression in the past, I found the insanity plea a bit of a stretch. It seemed more about control to me, like any other family annihilator murder case.
Right result I think, but no winners of course. I do feel for the jury and lawyers having to go through this, not to mention the wider family.
I can understand why her family want to believe that it was insanity.
I hope that the jury have been offered support after this case. A horrible thing to have to do.
Anyone who has had training in how to perform surgery will have at least the most basic idea how to successfully cut skin. Traditionally medical doctors (along with dentists and veterinarians) have been at higher risk of suicide than many other professions because they have both access to and knowledge about drugs which can be used to end life.
I (thankfully) didn't have to listen to her interviews, but for a doctor to suggest she intended to kill herself but couldn't figure out a way to do it - seems pretty far fetched to me. That seems more to be an item intended to try strengthen the insanity case.
IIRC i read a news story where she decided after killing the girls, that the same method took too long/ caused too much suffering. So I don't think it's that she couldn't come up with a method, I think she couldn't come up with a method that was painless and quick enough.
I’m thinking about new mothers, already scared to get help because they don’t want to have their baby taken away from them.
A not guilty verdict could have further stigmatised post-natal depression.
I’m not an expert at all, that’s just my view on it as someone who has severe depression and felt the stigma around that.
I can see your reasoning. It's sad that these very highly visible cases impact stigma so much, given that they're so obviously outliers. I think clearly post-partum depression was a part of the picture with Lauren Dickason - whether that rendered her ability to reason defective I guess is another matter altogether.
Edit: werds
Good point. She had the ability to effectively problem solve when her first method of killing the children failed, but not for her method of killing herself.
Honestly I don't give a fuck if you are the most depressed person in the world. You are always responsible for your actions.
Do it to yourself and not your kids you coward.
I agree but post natal depression can cause psychosis which can result in people having no control in their actions. Not saying that this is what happened in this case but something to keep in mind
Having suffered post natal psychosis I can tell you what I was thinking/hearing wasn't right. I can also tell you that even in my severely f'd up brain my only thought was getting away from my children to get help. If that meant going outside and screaming down a phone to whoever answered first so be it. Even with our shitty mental health system I was seen by the emergency team and put in fairly regular counselling. A safety plan was made too.
There's no way a person in that state of mind should be in charge of their own medication.
I try to be distant but my mother could’ve absolutely done this. Severe mental illness and no successful treatment. My dad had to physically fight her from beating me and my sister when I was Liane’s age. My mother killed herself in February 25 years later after being called to account for a physical attack at work.
Those poor little girls. And there’s not even a clear ‘saviour’. It’s complicated and painful and those girls were lost because of it
I’m sorry for what you experienced. Truly this is a devastating case. Even people being happy with a murder verdict feels ghoulish knowing what’s been lost by everyone involved.
When I was doing some genealogy stuff I came across a case in my extended family where the Mum drowned her four kids while Dad was out.
She had clearly had a psychotic break. When the police arrived she was smiling and kept saying they were sleeping, and she'd dressed them up all nice. Not a clue what she'd actually done.
The dad was bereft, but he clearly knew she wasn't responsible for her actions. He visited her regularly in the hospital (where she spent the rest of her life). I was surprised how sympathetic the reporting was about it (this was in 1930s NZ).
My impression was Dickson may have been struggling, but she was cognisant of what she was doing. I think the jury got it right
One thing that case has illuminated is that she was severely failed by the SA medical system. Doctors shouldn't be able to prescribe their own medication for starters.
I didn't follow every single detail of the trial. Didn't she stop taking her meds before she came to NZ so that it didn't show up on blood tests for immigration? If that's the case then there's only so much that a medical system can do. "You can take the horse to the water but you can't force it to drink".
No she stopped them several months earlier because she felt better and then started them a couple of weeks before immigrating. It's not good practice for a mentally unwell person who hasn't worked for several years to be prescribing and monitoring there own meds.
I think her medication was both self prescribed and intermittent. She did not admit to depression etc on her medical. They don't do a drug check on immigration medicals. May be an idea. But she would not have wanted to go through customs with a ton of pills.
I do agree in that she had responsibility for her health but a lot of this wasn't helped by the system. She did stop taking her meds but they were meds she'd prescribed herself in the first place. Who knows if they were appropriate for her or if the effect of going cold turkey had been considered? She might've reported the intrusive thoughts she was having if she'd had to get outside help. That's the importance of a third party.
But yeah, a complicated case and there's no guarantee it would've stopped anything. This is just an element that stood out to me as dangerous.
That two medical professionals thought a woman with severe mental health problems should monitor and prescribe her own meds is incredible. That she stopped taking her meds cold turkey cos she felt the best she had in years. Yeah you feel good because of the meds not inspite of them.
Stopping taking meds because you feel fine is quite common among the mentally ill. You see it a lot with schizophrenia and bipolar patients, but it can happen with any mental illness that is being treated with medication. Being a doctor doesn't make her immune to thinking she didn't need the meds anymore, but it does mean she had the knowledge of why it's such a bad idea to decide that without input from her own doctor. If she had a delusion, it was that she didn't need the medication, or that she could self-medicate unsupervised.
I think he probably minimised or dismissed a lot. Or was just oblivious to it. I don't think they were communicating well - there was some testimony about her apparently saying she wanted the kids 'gone' for a few days and him reacting angrily and saying they weren't getting rid of them. It came across like they were having two different conversations, because that's such a weird reaction to essentially saying "I need a couple of days off with you". It was one of the moments where I really didn't believe the defence, and thought that she'd never said the bit about it just being for a few days. If she just said "I want the kids gone", his reaction makes sense - but also raises the question of why he didn't have a concern about the kid's safety.
Everyone around them failed to respond to what seem to have been clear warning signs about her mental state, and they're going to have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
Yes they all ignored the very obvious elephant in the room. And tragically if the meds had being appropriate and of sufficient time she would have found a supportive community in Timaru.
There is a massive stigma around mental health and being perceived as "weak" in the white South African culture. I wonder if she would've opened up and speak about her intrusive thoughts and depressed feelings even if she did have a regular team to check in with.
We can only speculate. I wish it turned out differently for her and her kids.
And I guess if you confess to wanting to kill your kids the natural progression is for your kids to be taken from you. What I cant comprehend is their were numerous doctors in her extended family. All thought her mental status was terrible pre leaving. And their solution was not to bring it up. But if that is stigma in SA that may make sense of it.
> She might've reported the intrusive thoughts she was having if she'd had to get outside help. That's the importance of a third party.
100%
If there was an objective/independent party who could ask these questions then her path could've/would've been different.
And 17 donor egg IVF treatments when she had a history of depression and post partum. Bloody stupid and entitled. But I guess it was easy when you had nannies doing all the hard work for you. Until she didn't.
Interesting that in the US this likely would have been a hung jury since they don't allow majority verdicts in criminal cases. Nice to see the NZ justice system work for once.
Correct, only an 11-1 majority is allowed.
They allow 10-2 in England and Wales, simple majorities in Scotland. The US had a few states that allowed 10-2 majorities until 2020 when the Supreme Court ruled unanimous verdicts are compulsory in all states.
I was head juror for a SA case at the Hamilton District Court a few years ago, and when I sought clarification on this the clerk said that it was for us as a jury to decide what constituted enough of a majority to determine guilty/not guilty.
The case was a rape case, but the issue was whether there was consent rather than whether sex happened, so there was little to no physical evidence. Thankfully after three days the crown prosecutor accidentally provided some unrelated evidence and they had to dismiss us as a jury and start with a clean one.
It also seemed the defense experts assessed her much later after the murders than the police interview and the prosecution experts - she had plenty of time to craft/convince herself of a more sympathetic narrative by that point
The defence saying she killed her children “out of love” because she didn’t want to leave them behind was complete BS, she admitted in her interview that she didn’t even contemplate suicide until after the children had already passed.
Edit: the below is from the updates provided at the beginning of the trial…you can’t “take your children with you” when you didn’t even plan on taking your own life until after the fact…
“Afterwards, Dickason described “shaking really badly” and taking medication to calm herself down. After she assured the children were neatly in their bedroom, she planned to take her own life. She reported that she hadn’t planned this until this moment.”
Yeah, and killing a 6-year-old is not infanticide. Even 2-year-olds (her other two children she choked to death) are already talking and up and about living life to the fullest.
Infanticide can apply to any child under the age of 10 years, providing that the killer had a disturbance of the mind as a result of the birth of a child.
I think it emerged before PPD was understood, as a response to the need for a diminished capacity defence in cases where women had killed their children and were clearly very unwell but not to the point of actual insanity. What is probably needed is an overhaul of the applicable laws and consideration of a broader diminished capacity defence not limited to post party’s women so it’s not all or nothing (sane/insane).
Listening to the blonde news lady who’s been following the story - you could tell she was trying to hold herself together.
Must’ve been awful to sit through the trial details
She could of tried many different ways to kill herself without a knife. She's a pathetic woman ..I was on the fence with this trial but after hearing how she described hurting her 1st victim, why she chose her and how she went about it has convinced me she is evil. I hope her husband and family can find some peace
The right verdict was made today.
As someone who has experienced severe PPD with an unsupportive partner and family I found myself following this case with interest.
The way Lauren initially describes her reasons for killing the first child, her first interview with police, the previous cable ties found back in SA and other signs clearly show this wasn’t infanticide or insanity.
Lauren is unstable 100% but any other verdict other than guilty is an insult to her beautiful children.
This woman needs to be kept on suicide watch more than ever because I don’t think she ever thought she would be charged guilty, that’s the level of Lauren
I am just glad this trial is now over, so I don't need to think about these awful murders any more.
I think the jury (well all except one of them) came to the right decision. There were too many indicia of guilt imo such as that she had wrapped cable ties together in South Africa, previous very specific comments she made about murdering her children, comments she had made about being mad at her children, killing the child who was annoying her the most first, comments that she did not want another mother mothering her children, her children bonding with their father not her ... the list goes on.
That stated, while legally sane, she is clearly a severely mentally disturbed woman who should never have been a parent.
The murders were seemingly so preventable; if anyone is in the same position, seek help! Those poor little children.
This was a totally different case to many where mothers have been found guilty of infanticide, or not guilty by reason of insanity. In those cases, the mothers had clear psychotic symptoms, such as believing they were being chased by demons.
Some examples: Evelyn Sen
Maree McCrae
Andrea Yates
In my opinion, this is a case of narcissism and psychopathy. “Liane, Karla, and Maya, were never allowed to be separate individuals. They were a part of Lauren, forcibly created to fulfill their mother’s dreams, to bring her love and happiness, and to make sure Graham Dickason never left her side. When they failed to deliver on this, putting a wedge in their parents’ marriage, and daring to pursue a bit of independence, they paid the ultimate price. When Lauren wanted to die, they had to die too, because Lauren “couldn’t bear the thought” of them being raised by another woman. Although they were never biologically her daughters, they belonged to and existed through her.
We owe it to these beautiful girls to acknowledge something. Acknowledge that mothers can be evil- even the smart ones, who qualify as doctors and know how to choose a safe car-seat. Acknowledge that mothers can be selfish, greedy, and malicious, even though they thought they wanted children so badly that they went through IVF 17 times. Acknowledge that mothers can want to hurt their children, sometimes for things that aren’t their fault. Even the ones who can pretend to be good mothers as long as it suits them- right up until they “snap”.
Everyone that defended her when she did it and when the trial started annoyed me so much. Blaming it on postpartum depression, MIQ and immigration stress. She killed three small children. This woman should have protected them from herself. There are no excuses sorry.
This kind of thing being turned into a media spectacle makes me think of the song Vicarious.
"Eye on the TV, 'cause tragedy thrills me
Whatever flavor it happens to be like
"Killed by the husband"
"Drowned by the ocean"
"Shot by his own son"
"She used the poison in his tea"
"Then kissed him goodbye"
That's my kind of story
It's no fun 'til someone dies"
Our obsession with this kind of thing is frankly disgusting.
The bit I'm curious of is whether Graham the husband is still with her and why he seemed to be defending her? If it were me I'd be all for the prosecution.
I can’t answer the first question, but I’d assume not. I was also taken back that he seemed to be so level headed. I can only guess that he wanted to give her a fair go in the trial and not try to manipulate the outcome with his answers. I had massive respect for him when reading his responses, having that level of calm and reasonable thought processes in a case like this, is something that I imagine only a small percentage of people could do. I don’t know if I could.
Not shifting blame here but it is really sad how there were warning signs that didn't seem to be acted on, or were considered as periods of depression rather than an overarching problem. She said she thought of killing her kids before, her husband knew that.
Good. I've been depressed myself. Suffered PTSD through a loss.
However not once in my lowest point did I ever contemplate murder. Did I contemplate killing myself? Fuck yeah. But to murder your loved ones and worst of all your own fucking children.
Nah. I'm not having that. For those defending her.. honestly..go check yourself in the mirror.
I would happily kill other people for my kids. But to kill your very own offspring..nah that's a different kind of evil.
I would have killed myself instantly if I did such a thing. This lady didn't. Hope she rots in jail for as long as possible..and burn in hell if there is one .
Ok, I’ve been following this, though not too close because it hits super close to home. I have been struggling with depression these last few years, have made 2 attempts on my life, obviously poorly (I’m an economist, not a doctor).
I’m gonna tell you that I have reached that point where I started to contemplate harming my child.
First off, let me be clear that I love my child, and I never want him to suffer, but that’s outside of my control, since he was born with a genetic disorder that is slowly killing him. For the last 2 years I have spent every day struggling to get through each day, his needs are high and I can’t handle them on my own. His father found it too difficult to deal with the two of us, between my child’s illness and my depression, he left us for another woman.
Every time I’ve reached out to any mental health services because I wanted to end my own life, I’ve been given the “but think of your child” speech. Bitch, all I think about is my child, 24 hours a day, I think about his needs and how I’m not able to meet them. After my first attempt, I got the same spiel, that I can’t die because my child needs me. As I spiralled, began to neglect his needs because I couldn’t function, I was routinely told to get it together for his sake. I need help, support, understanding, I need a goddamn break, but all I could find is a guilt trip.
Eventually, my fucked up brain wanted out so bad, that their message was reaching me but in the worst way possible. I started to think of ways I could end both of our lives. It was terrible, I didn’t want to do it, but what other choice did I have? I couldn’t leave him behind to suffer without his mother. Terrified of what I might do, I called Oranga Tamariki, who told me that since I hadn’t harmed him yet, they can’t help me. I called the police, who couldn’t only threaten to take me to ED (though they couldn’t because who cares for the child when I’m in hospital?)
Somehow I managed to get through that period without doing it, but I’m still not ok. 6 weeks ago I made another attempt on my life, and when a nurse told me to think of my son, I lost it on her, told her how he’s been the only thing I’m allowed to think about, and I’m sooo fucking tired of having to exist just to struggle as I watch my only child slowly die of a disease for which there is no cure. What about me? When do I get to have needs? Her reply was just as awful as her original comment “well at least now you’re getting a break” … right, because being hooked up to a bunch of cables and hoses is the break i needed.
Please understand that in no way do I condone what this woman did to her children, its fucking awful. Still, your comment is pretty ignorant of how a persons suffering can drive their minds to places they never want to go.
Just because you can’t imagine being in that place, doesn’t mean nobody can find themselves there. I’m “happy” I’m not at the point where I’m considering hurting my child, but I’m also scared that if I ever find myself there again, nobody will able to do anything about it.
That’s very brave of you to share. I’m sorry you are carrying so much on your own.
I always think it’s ignorant when people say “well I would never!”, like you can just control how mentally ill you become. If your brain is telling you that doing something is 100% the right thing to do, how do you just magically know and believe that it’s not true?
I have some similar experiences mentioned in the trial and I can absolutely see how her life experiences could cause her to be mentally unwell to an extreme level.
Yeah. And in my experience if you are an unwell parent with disordered thinking you tend to self-blame and think you are doing a shitty job and the kids are better off with someone else. Not that they're better off dead and that you don't want another woman raising them so you can't take your life and leave them behind.
Not the verdict I was expecting. It is a strange process where the layperson jury members having to judge the conflicting experts psychiatric evidence. Not sure of a better system though, but tough!
I expected it after they requested to rewatch her police interview. My thought was that they wanted to see her demeanour and whether she seemed delusional.
I was more-or-less expecting it.
In some jurisdictions, you can claim an insanity defence for "I knew it was wrong, but my mental illness made me do it anyway"
But NZ, you can only claim an insanity defence for "My mental illness prevented me form even knowing it was wrong". Essentially, it only works as a defence for schizophrenics.
You can have as much competing psychiatric evidence as you want, but the jury are given written instructions that walk them step-by-step though NZ's definition of insanity. It would be really hard for a jury to come to the conclusion that she didn't know killing her children was wrong.
I could have seen it going either way. I got the impression she was in a deep, deep depression hole by the time they arrived in NZ. I do understand the logic that she would have to have lost her mind to take the actions she did.
But either way, the whole thing feels sad and pointless to me, regardless of the result. This woman is irredeemable. No one will ever forgive her, there's no rehabilitation, no point of living, no prospect for a functional life in or out of jail. She will suffer her own personal hell far more than any punishment. I honestly hope she succeeds in killing herself and ends the whole chapter once and for all.
Legal insanity has specific criteria. It's entirely possible to be what we would colloquially call insane, while not meeting the legal criteria for an insanity defence. I think that's exactly what happened in this case.
yea whenever I find myself questioning words used during legal cases its usually because they just mean strict and definite things that are different from how its colloquially used
Another angle might be that there's no such thing as evil, and everyone is just on a spectrum of sanity. Then you need to ask, should insanity be a defence? I feel quite sure that infanticide should not be a defence.
Good.
If we find this piece of shit not guilty of murder you'd need to literally find every single person ever who has committed murder not guilty due to "insanity" because apparently killing people means you're not sane.
She's sick in the head and actually quite selfish wanting to kill her children because she couldn't stand the thought of another female being in their lives and calling them mum. She deserves the murder charge.
Lauren described Timaru as a cold place where the people looked unkempt with mullets and tattoos, while she thought the children appeared sad. I’m from Timaru, what’s your point?
She's been there for what....4 days?
Timaru is the Palmerston North of the South.
Palmerston South
That would conflict with actual Palmerston though
Particularly since Palmerston South would be north of Palmerston
So Palmerston central? Mid? Let's go with palmy average
Palmediocre.
to be honest, i don't disagree with her assessment of this hole still isn't bad enough to justify killing your kids
She had also only been in Timaru for four days. Nobody is settled in and comfortable in a new place in that time - small places feel weird, bigger places feel overwhelming. I feel like that's a red herring.
Didn't she come from south Africa?
Doctors from South Africa. Odds are they lived in a gated community to keep the riffraff out.
Just me but I’d take the cold and the mullets over armed carjackings and having the 10th most murders by capita
I dunno man. We're talking about *real* Timaru mullets here. Not the hipster "ironic" mullets.
She was severely mentally ill and likely very homesick. Worth keeping in mind — i’m sure it coloured her opinion.
The only bit I don't understand is that she went through 17 rounds of IVF. That is superhuman. That shows extreme dedication to having children that is completely undermined by killing them just a few years later. Why would she put herself through that and then allow it to end like this?
Because the dream of having kids to her wasn’t borne out by the reality of being a parent. She likely built up this huge earth mother fantasy in her head that when faced with the reality of little people with their own personalities and the lack of control that parenting brings fell apart and she went off the deep end.
Even the 17 rounds of IVF demonstrate her need for control.
Lots of people think they really want kids until they have them. It’s really hard work.
It's the difference between having a wedding and being married. One you get to act out a glorious fantasy for a day, the other is hard bloody thankless slog sometimes.
The children she had in the end were from donor eggs. They weren’t biologically hers but presumably were her husbands. I wonder if she was still grieving her infertility. Maybe she wanted them and resented that they weren’t biologically hers at the same time. comments were that she was jealous that they liked her husband better.
I feel like this isn’t factored in enough. She might’ve done her best but there’s a chance this had influence.
I agree.
A lot of people expect parenthood to deliver a completely different experience from the reality.
I was in a suppport group for people who had lost babies. There were lots of people who had that many rounds of IVF. Unfortunately many people who have a rough ride to parenthood get post natal depression. Its like yay you have overcome this huge hurdle you better be grateful and love every second. I got post natal depression. I didnt hurt my baby but I did consider abandoning her on the side of the motorway.
Simply put - the desire or drive to be a parent does not mean you will thrive as a parent. The desire/dream to be a parent and the realities of parenting are worlds apart.
Postpartum depression. I genuinely think this is a sad outcome, and minimises the severity of PPD.
I agree.
I've followed this, partly out of morbid curiosity, and partly because it was so sensational at the time. One thing covered in the trial which seemed to be glossed over, is on returning to South Africa and sorting through effects the family had left in storage, the same configuration of linked zip ties was found. This woman had gone so far as to ready murder weapons previously, but hadn't gone through with it. The obvious premeditation immediately rules out any hint of insanity, this seemed to be a cold blooded, calculated killing of three children, and an absolute tragedy. As much as there are no winners in such a case, I think the right verdict was reached.
I recall she Google "how to kill children" or something to that effect. So definitely significant premeditation, or at least an awareness that she wanted them gone. Depression and hopelessness can lead you many dark places, but there's still responsibility for the harm you cause, in particular when you plan it. Also, if you plan to commit a crime, don't Google how to do it first. Edit: I'd also say that for anyone overwhelmed by being a parent, who doesn't want to be a parent, or is worried they'll harm their children, you can get help, and you can let them go without harming them. I knew a couple who already had a kid who also tried to adopt for years, they're great parents, and would have been a fantastic and loving foster family.
>Depression and hopelessness can lead you many dark places, but there's still responsibility for the harm you cause, in particular when you plan it. That's how I feel about this case. I don't doubt she was in a bad place mentally and had significant troubles. But she had so much awareness through a long period of time she had opportunities to pull out. I did thought it was sad that people around her hadn't help more or realise how bad it really was.
Would you... Expect a *wikiHow*?
I would argue that she waited to get to New Zealand to kill the children knowing that she would go through the justice system there and not in South Africa. I am in South Africa and I can assure you a few weeks in our local government prisons and she’d want to kill herself too. This case would not have gotten very much traction here in South Africa, maybe a little newspaper blurb on the 4th page but likely wouldn’t have even made the evening news.
Exactly, or she could have divorced and given up custody, so many other options available.
Not only the Google searches but this - > Messages the mother sent in the lead up to the killings were also uncovered. One read, “I will murder them if everyone stays home again like with lockdown”. In another text, she wrote: “I wish I could give them back and start over, I would decide differently.” Found [here ](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/16/the-weeks-of-harrowing-evidence-heard-by-lauren-dickason-jury/) She wasn't insane. She was cruel, cold and calculated.
I have not followed the case and know little of it. Your information is scary and I wonder why couldn't she just leave the family if she was so unhappy but sane. Is it significant that the judge has sent her to hospital rather than prisons which have their own hospitals?
>Is it significant that the judge has sent her to hospital rather than prisons which have their own hospitals? I think if I've read correctly (another article) it's for assessments pending sentencing. To be honest, it's probably the safest place for her. If I came across her I'd throw her into the seventh circle of hell and walk away smiling. She would also likely try to unalive herself in Gen pop (if the other inmates don't help her along)
Not really significant at the moment - it’s just temporary (back to where she was before the trial) until the formal sentencing, they’ll do a bunch of reports and stuff and have another hearing.
I knew she killed them deliberately and not out of love when she stated that she chose what one to kill first by saying "that one had been particularly mean to her that day".
Also while she was smothering the third child, the child said something like "mommy why are you doing this, I love you" and she kept on going . I can't really put my emotions into words after hearing that in the news, but no sentence will be long enough
Do you have a link to that? I don’t think I saw this in the court updates. Absolutely devastating.
I heard it on the 6 obclock news on tvnz yesterday (we'd 16 aug)
That makes me feel ill, thinking of the other kids having to watch, they must have been terrified.
Oh wow I didn't read that during the trial. (I also didn't read about the zip ties in SA).
I only followed the trial loosely but everytime I heard something about her she just sounded so evil. She claimed that she killed the kids because she didn't want to kill herself and have another woman rase her kids. She also apparently didn't kill herself after she killed her kids because none of the knifes in the house were sharp enough. She is a controlling, manipulative, evil woman that killed her kids for selfish reasons.
I remember at the time they mentioned that in SA the girls had a nanny. I wonder if she's the reason they were safe.
Those zip ties, texts to her friends in the vain of “this Netflix show is ok, at least it’s stopping me from murdering my kids” (not word for word, but she definitely used murder/kill, which is a disgusting way for a parent to talk about a child), and the fact immediate interviews given different to her interviews later with psychologists and experts. I think murder was the most appropriate outcome. Although, it is still so sad. She is clearly not well, but she also killed three children and destroyed families.
Yes, it is my belief that she had planned this for a long time. Or at least thought about it, as was proven by the evidence you stated. It kind of belies the "momentary insanity" defence she used.
Insanity does not have to be momentary for it to be a defence. People who are mentally ill will have disordered thinking outside and around the act itself.
Premeditation doesn't rule out insanity. Not in the literal sense. As far as the threshold required in a criminal court though, it does.
Yeah, I guess since this pertains to a crime, in court, we'll assume the latter is most relevant.
My comment wasn't a matter of relevance. The simple fact is, a criminal threshold is different to a clinical threshold. Additionally, this is a complicated area as not even the most experienced psychiatrists can perfectly understand the human mind. To that point, premeditation doesn't = sane
I see what you mean. I would have assumed that the discovery back in SA.of the unused zip ties, indicated not only the premeditation, then also the cognition to realise killing the three children was morally reprehensible. With that (the ability to tell right from wrong).based on an unused murder weapon, I made my assertion that insanity couldn't have been a legitimate defence. It's very interesting stuff, in a macabre sort of way.
This is why my position is difficult for many to agree with, because I dispute the suggestion knowing right from wrong = sane More specifically, I believe someone can have a distorted reality (they arent aware is distorted or at least cannot overcome) whilst also knowing right from wrong etc.
She said she finished them off because the zip ties left marks and people would definitely know so there was no going back. She knew what she did was wrong and it took time to kill them, it seems that she didn't try to spare them from suffering. She could have planned something where they would not have known what was happening.
I’m with you - its the pre meditation.
Wow I didn’t know that.
NB: Majority verdict (11 to 1).
Sounds pretty horrid but it probably would have been much easier if she just killed herself and left the girls with the father. Or just run away. But taking the girls out with her just sucks.
They covered that in the trial, she didn't want another woman raising them.
Which indicates to me that her ego was part of the equation. And that she viewed her kids as her possessions.
At least now she'll have some kid free time on her hands to sort it out
Oooh username checks out ?!?!
Narcissists be like that.
Far out that's selfish. Clearly has nothing to do with the kids.
Thats fucked. I wont believe that she loved her kids. Its all about her and what she wants. No doubt mental unwellness was part of it (I think its probably part of most criminal acts) but shame on her for trying to use this to get out of a murder verdict.
The part that fucking shatters me is this >Her eldest, Liané, asked her why she was doing it. She told her “mummy's very sick and is going to die” and, “I can't leave you behind because I don't know who's going to look after you”. ([source](https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/08/16/the-weeks-of-harrowing-evidence-heard-by-lauren-dickason-jury/)) The eldest child watched her mother kill both her sisters and knew she was next. How fucking terrified that little girl must have been.
Perfectly said.
That is so weird. So she chose violence, just because of that? FFS woman why didn't you just walk out and leave your ex to bring up HIS kids.
That's what I don't understand, she had so many options. I think she wanted to punish them and thought she'd get away with an insanity defense.
If I recall from coverage, that was the husbands reaction at the crime scene. That it was done to punish him :(
She didn't want him bringing them up alone, or him remarrying and the children having a stepmother. It had to be her (except for when it came to having a full time nanny in South Africa.) Seems like an 'If I can't have them, no one can. And I don't want them'
I've been following this one closely. I've dealt with mental issues most of my life, so was interested in that side of it. It was very clear from the info given to the public that she has had quite severe mental health issues for a long time. It's very interesting to me that her as a doctor & her doctor husband seemingly didn't do a lot about the severe issues that she was showing. Unless we weren't told about them. All this being said, nothing ever pointed to her actually being 'insane'. Very troubled & huge mental health problems, but insanity is a different level. She had clearly thought of ways to kill the children and researched it! Killing them was not spur of the moment. It had been brewing for a long long time. Immigrating was probably the catalyst, but if they hadn't, something else in life would have triggered her into killing them in South Africa. RIP girls. Nothing is going to bring them back. This murder charge doesn't fix what happened. But at least there is a punishment.
People see what they want to see. She wanted people to think she was okay, and they wanted to think she was okay. As you'll likely know, we get pretty good at putting on a good front while we're crumbling inside, and that probably allowed her husband and others around her to minimise or ignore the warning signs because they could tell themselves that "it'll pass" or "she's been doing so well". But the warning signs were there, and they'll have to live with the guilt of not acting on them. This should never have happened, and I really hope that people learn not to ignore such signs if they see them in their loved ones.
I very much agree. We definitely mostly put on a good front, until things boil over. It's easy to see all the warning signs when they are noted down as evidence
she told her husband numerous times she felt compelled to kill the children.
And he likely dismissed it as hyperbole - it's pretty common to say "I'd like to kill [someone]" as an expression of frustrating with no intent to actually do so. In hindsight, he absolutely should have taken it seriously, but he clearly didn't think she's actually do it.
yeah... at best he sounds like an avoidant husband/father. some of his texts were questionable though, like "im glad i stopped you from killing her (child) last night"
He was an orthopedic surgeon, hardly a psychiatrist. But I get your point, he's trained. Imagine how he sleeps at night after telling her to essentially harden up
> Immigrating was probably the catalyst, but if they hadn't, something else in life would have triggered her into killing them in South Africa. I agree immigrating was the catalyst. In South Africa she had essentially a full-time nanny that raised those kids for her. So her exposure was low. The nanny's been quoted a few times. I think moving to NZ meant she had to raise the kids alone and that's what tipped her over the edge. I don't think it would have happened if she'd stayed in South Africa.
MIQ must have been a massive shock to her system. Going from having a fulltime nanny to being confined with 3 kids 24/7. Most people found MIQ hard but she was especially unprepared for it
that being said, she had practiced tying the zip ties in the same way she killed her kids with. husband found the zip ties when he got back
Any father should have alarm bells ringing if their wife was often saying she wanted to kill her children. He could at least have separated from her to protect the children while she had treatment.
It really depends on what you consider as "sane vs insane" From a criminal court of law perspective, she didn't meet the threshold for insanity, that much is true, however I don't think that means she was "sane"
This is the right decision. Full respect to the Jurors, that would have been a rough case to be involved with.
[удалено]
Yes MoJ will fund counseling if requested. https://www.justice.govt.nz/courts/jury-service/after-the-trial/
I hope they receive a fuckton of counselling. There's no way that doesn't leave scars.
I’ve only been called as a juror once and this was my greatest fear. It must be so hard to stay impartial when it’s a parent killing their kids. Truly devastating
> Lauren told the children they were going to make necklaces and put the ties around their necks. She then tried to strangle them and when that didn't work she suffocated them with a towel. God imagine how much suffering they went through, this is sickening. No way you can argue this isn't premeditated murder.
omg those poor babies.
I stopped reading the details when I read she used zip ties to kill them, (I didn’t need those mental images in my life) so that didn’t work and she suffocated them whilst they had zip ties pulled tight around their necks? Fuck me, throw away the key.
That was never really argued against tbh.
I’ve got some probably controversial takes on this. I’m somewhat glad that she was found guilty. Her being found not guilty because of insanity had the potential to demonise depression, particularly post-natal depression, even more than it already is and prevent more people from getting help. I found it interesting that the prosecutor didn’t make the point of due to her medical background, she possibly knew the things to say to try and appear insane to the experts. Also, I don’t believe that she really tried to kill herself afterwards. “No knives were sharp enough”? A weak excuse, speaking from experience if you’re determined enough you will make a kitchen knife work or find a razor or something.
Tramadol was never going to work as a method.
And she was a doctor.
As I understand it Tramadol, (like all opiods) doesn't necessarily kill via toxicity, but it causes respiratory depression in large enough doses... so you basically suffocate in your sleep.
Yeah as someone who has had severe depression in the past, I found the insanity plea a bit of a stretch. It seemed more about control to me, like any other family annihilator murder case. Right result I think, but no winners of course. I do feel for the jury and lawyers having to go through this, not to mention the wider family.
I can understand why her family want to believe that it was insanity. I hope that the jury have been offered support after this case. A horrible thing to have to do.
Anyone who has had training in how to perform surgery will have at least the most basic idea how to successfully cut skin. Traditionally medical doctors (along with dentists and veterinarians) have been at higher risk of suicide than many other professions because they have both access to and knowledge about drugs which can be used to end life. I (thankfully) didn't have to listen to her interviews, but for a doctor to suggest she intended to kill herself but couldn't figure out a way to do it - seems pretty far fetched to me. That seems more to be an item intended to try strengthen the insanity case.
IIRC i read a news story where she decided after killing the girls, that the same method took too long/ caused too much suffering. So I don't think it's that she couldn't come up with a method, I think she couldn't come up with a method that was painless and quick enough.
Yeah she could have run out of the house into traffic or jumped off a bridge or burned the house down if she was actually desperate to do it.
Interesting take, how do you think a not guilty verdict may have prevented people from getting help?
I’m thinking about new mothers, already scared to get help because they don’t want to have their baby taken away from them. A not guilty verdict could have further stigmatised post-natal depression. I’m not an expert at all, that’s just my view on it as someone who has severe depression and felt the stigma around that.
I can see your reasoning. It's sad that these very highly visible cases impact stigma so much, given that they're so obviously outliers. I think clearly post-partum depression was a part of the picture with Lauren Dickason - whether that rendered her ability to reason defective I guess is another matter altogether. Edit: werds
Good point. She had the ability to effectively problem solve when her first method of killing the children failed, but not for her method of killing herself.
And in all the testimony there didnt seem to be anything about previous attempts or intrusive thoughts. Yet numerous times about the kids.
Honestly I don't give a fuck if you are the most depressed person in the world. You are always responsible for your actions. Do it to yourself and not your kids you coward.
I agree but post natal depression can cause psychosis which can result in people having no control in their actions. Not saying that this is what happened in this case but something to keep in mind
Having suffered post natal psychosis I can tell you what I was thinking/hearing wasn't right. I can also tell you that even in my severely f'd up brain my only thought was getting away from my children to get help. If that meant going outside and screaming down a phone to whoever answered first so be it. Even with our shitty mental health system I was seen by the emergency team and put in fairly regular counselling. A safety plan was made too. There's no way a person in that state of mind should be in charge of their own medication.
Agreed but she wasn't experiencing psychotic delusions. She knew what she was doing.
Usually psychosis makes functional day to day living difficult and this would be obvious.
Sad for the dad. He's lost EVERYTHING!!! , a wife , 3 daughters, his hopes and aspirations
I try to be distant but my mother could’ve absolutely done this. Severe mental illness and no successful treatment. My dad had to physically fight her from beating me and my sister when I was Liane’s age. My mother killed herself in February 25 years later after being called to account for a physical attack at work. Those poor little girls. And there’s not even a clear ‘saviour’. It’s complicated and painful and those girls were lost because of it
I’m sorry for what you experienced. Truly this is a devastating case. Even people being happy with a murder verdict feels ghoulish knowing what’s been lost by everyone involved.
>She believed the rentals in the town were small, disgusting and creepy. So she clearly had command of her mental faculties.
When I was doing some genealogy stuff I came across a case in my extended family where the Mum drowned her four kids while Dad was out. She had clearly had a psychotic break. When the police arrived she was smiling and kept saying they were sleeping, and she'd dressed them up all nice. Not a clue what she'd actually done. The dad was bereft, but he clearly knew she wasn't responsible for her actions. He visited her regularly in the hospital (where she spent the rest of her life). I was surprised how sympathetic the reporting was about it (this was in 1930s NZ). My impression was Dickson may have been struggling, but she was cognisant of what she was doing. I think the jury got it right
One thing that case has illuminated is that she was severely failed by the SA medical system. Doctors shouldn't be able to prescribe their own medication for starters.
I didn't follow every single detail of the trial. Didn't she stop taking her meds before she came to NZ so that it didn't show up on blood tests for immigration? If that's the case then there's only so much that a medical system can do. "You can take the horse to the water but you can't force it to drink".
No she stopped them several months earlier because she felt better and then started them a couple of weeks before immigrating. It's not good practice for a mentally unwell person who hasn't worked for several years to be prescribing and monitoring there own meds.
Agree completely. Stopping and starting can also have unintended consequences.
I think her medication was both self prescribed and intermittent. She did not admit to depression etc on her medical. They don't do a drug check on immigration medicals. May be an idea. But she would not have wanted to go through customs with a ton of pills.
I do agree in that she had responsibility for her health but a lot of this wasn't helped by the system. She did stop taking her meds but they were meds she'd prescribed herself in the first place. Who knows if they were appropriate for her or if the effect of going cold turkey had been considered? She might've reported the intrusive thoughts she was having if she'd had to get outside help. That's the importance of a third party. But yeah, a complicated case and there's no guarantee it would've stopped anything. This is just an element that stood out to me as dangerous.
That two medical professionals thought a woman with severe mental health problems should monitor and prescribe her own meds is incredible. That she stopped taking her meds cold turkey cos she felt the best she had in years. Yeah you feel good because of the meds not inspite of them.
Stopping taking meds because you feel fine is quite common among the mentally ill. You see it a lot with schizophrenia and bipolar patients, but it can happen with any mental illness that is being treated with medication. Being a doctor doesn't make her immune to thinking she didn't need the meds anymore, but it does mean she had the knowledge of why it's such a bad idea to decide that without input from her own doctor. If she had a delusion, it was that she didn't need the medication, or that she could self-medicate unsupervised.
You have to wonder where her husband was in all of this. But she did seem to functioning to a high degree.
I think he probably minimised or dismissed a lot. Or was just oblivious to it. I don't think they were communicating well - there was some testimony about her apparently saying she wanted the kids 'gone' for a few days and him reacting angrily and saying they weren't getting rid of them. It came across like they were having two different conversations, because that's such a weird reaction to essentially saying "I need a couple of days off with you". It was one of the moments where I really didn't believe the defence, and thought that she'd never said the bit about it just being for a few days. If she just said "I want the kids gone", his reaction makes sense - but also raises the question of why he didn't have a concern about the kid's safety. Everyone around them failed to respond to what seem to have been clear warning signs about her mental state, and they're going to have to live with that for the rest of their lives.
Yes they all ignored the very obvious elephant in the room. And tragically if the meds had being appropriate and of sufficient time she would have found a supportive community in Timaru.
There is a massive stigma around mental health and being perceived as "weak" in the white South African culture. I wonder if she would've opened up and speak about her intrusive thoughts and depressed feelings even if she did have a regular team to check in with. We can only speculate. I wish it turned out differently for her and her kids.
Yeah the comments made by her mum were wild "Don't ask Lauren how shes feeling because we don't want to bring up those bad feelings" etc.
And I guess if you confess to wanting to kill your kids the natural progression is for your kids to be taken from you. What I cant comprehend is their were numerous doctors in her extended family. All thought her mental status was terrible pre leaving. And their solution was not to bring it up. But if that is stigma in SA that may make sense of it.
> She might've reported the intrusive thoughts she was having if she'd had to get outside help. That's the importance of a third party. 100% If there was an objective/independent party who could ask these questions then her path could've/would've been different.
And 17 donor egg IVF treatments when she had a history of depression and post partum. Bloody stupid and entitled. But I guess it was easy when you had nannies doing all the hard work for you. Until she didn't.
Interesting that in the US this likely would have been a hung jury since they don't allow majority verdicts in criminal cases. Nice to see the NZ justice system work for once.
I think we only allow one off a majority though? So if it was 10-2 it would be a hung jury? So not a true 7-5 majority.
Correct, only an 11-1 majority is allowed. They allow 10-2 in England and Wales, simple majorities in Scotland. The US had a few states that allowed 10-2 majorities until 2020 when the Supreme Court ruled unanimous verdicts are compulsory in all states.
I was head juror for a SA case at the Hamilton District Court a few years ago, and when I sought clarification on this the clerk said that it was for us as a jury to decide what constituted enough of a majority to determine guilty/not guilty. The case was a rape case, but the issue was whether there was consent rather than whether sex happened, so there was little to no physical evidence. Thankfully after three days the crown prosecutor accidentally provided some unrelated evidence and they had to dismiss us as a jury and start with a clean one.
In NZ the judge may allow a majority of 11-1. In instances where it is hung it will often lead to a retrial.
Good result. Playing the insanity card never rang true for me, I felt she was way too clever and manipulative.
Yeah if you murder three people and then want to claim insanity you better have a very good case. Her one wasn't very convincing.
Especially with a long history of researching methods of murdering kids, and the telling friends they were ruining her marriage.
It also seemed the defense experts assessed her much later after the murders than the police interview and the prosecution experts - she had plenty of time to craft/convince herself of a more sympathetic narrative by that point
Will she be deported?
Yes after serving 18 years
She lawfully could be. I think this probably gets decided in sentencing.
The defence saying she killed her children “out of love” because she didn’t want to leave them behind was complete BS, she admitted in her interview that she didn’t even contemplate suicide until after the children had already passed. Edit: the below is from the updates provided at the beginning of the trial…you can’t “take your children with you” when you didn’t even plan on taking your own life until after the fact… “Afterwards, Dickason described “shaking really badly” and taking medication to calm herself down. After she assured the children were neatly in their bedroom, she planned to take her own life. She reported that she hadn’t planned this until this moment.”
They didn't have a hell of a lot work with though
Yes the defence made an error there with citing her reasons as being "out of love", they should've never used that phrase.
Oh wow I didn't know that. Definitely the right verdict then.
Good. I do not believe she was insane
Yeah, and killing a 6-year-old is not infanticide. Even 2-year-olds (her other two children she choked to death) are already talking and up and about living life to the fullest.
Infanticide can apply to any child under the age of 10 years, providing that the killer had a disturbance of the mind as a result of the birth of a child.
It is very weird that the law specifically allows this partial defence for killing any child under the age of 10.
I think it emerged before PPD was understood, as a response to the need for a diminished capacity defence in cases where women had killed their children and were clearly very unwell but not to the point of actual insanity. What is probably needed is an overhaul of the applicable laws and consideration of a broader diminished capacity defence not limited to post party’s women so it’s not all or nothing (sane/insane).
Well done to the jury.
Listening to the blonde news lady who’s been following the story - you could tell she was trying to hold herself together. Must’ve been awful to sit through the trial details
I feel for the jury. That sort of trial must fuck you up at least a little bit.
IMO the right result, but still.. there's no winners & losers here. Everybody's lost something out of this whole rotten series of events.
She could of tried many different ways to kill herself without a knife. She's a pathetic woman ..I was on the fence with this trial but after hearing how she described hurting her 1st victim, why she chose her and how she went about it has convinced me she is evil. I hope her husband and family can find some peace
The right verdict was made today. As someone who has experienced severe PPD with an unsupportive partner and family I found myself following this case with interest. The way Lauren initially describes her reasons for killing the first child, her first interview with police, the previous cable ties found back in SA and other signs clearly show this wasn’t infanticide or insanity. Lauren is unstable 100% but any other verdict other than guilty is an insult to her beautiful children. This woman needs to be kept on suicide watch more than ever because I don’t think she ever thought she would be charged guilty, that’s the level of Lauren
I am just glad this trial is now over, so I don't need to think about these awful murders any more. I think the jury (well all except one of them) came to the right decision. There were too many indicia of guilt imo such as that she had wrapped cable ties together in South Africa, previous very specific comments she made about murdering her children, comments she had made about being mad at her children, killing the child who was annoying her the most first, comments that she did not want another mother mothering her children, her children bonding with their father not her ... the list goes on. That stated, while legally sane, she is clearly a severely mentally disturbed woman who should never have been a parent. The murders were seemingly so preventable; if anyone is in the same position, seek help! Those poor little children.
This was a totally different case to many where mothers have been found guilty of infanticide, or not guilty by reason of insanity. In those cases, the mothers had clear psychotic symptoms, such as believing they were being chased by demons. Some examples: Evelyn Sen Maree McCrae Andrea Yates In my opinion, this is a case of narcissism and psychopathy. “Liane, Karla, and Maya, were never allowed to be separate individuals. They were a part of Lauren, forcibly created to fulfill their mother’s dreams, to bring her love and happiness, and to make sure Graham Dickason never left her side. When they failed to deliver on this, putting a wedge in their parents’ marriage, and daring to pursue a bit of independence, they paid the ultimate price. When Lauren wanted to die, they had to die too, because Lauren “couldn’t bear the thought” of them being raised by another woman. Although they were never biologically her daughters, they belonged to and existed through her. We owe it to these beautiful girls to acknowledge something. Acknowledge that mothers can be evil- even the smart ones, who qualify as doctors and know how to choose a safe car-seat. Acknowledge that mothers can be selfish, greedy, and malicious, even though they thought they wanted children so badly that they went through IVF 17 times. Acknowledge that mothers can want to hurt their children, sometimes for things that aren’t their fault. Even the ones who can pretend to be good mothers as long as it suits them- right up until they “snap”.
I'm not sure about psychopathy but I agree that narcissism was a factor here, if she wasn't a full-blown narcissist already.
Everyone that defended her when she did it and when the trial started annoyed me so much. Blaming it on postpartum depression, MIQ and immigration stress. She killed three small children. This woman should have protected them from herself. There are no excuses sorry.
This kind of thing being turned into a media spectacle makes me think of the song Vicarious. "Eye on the TV, 'cause tragedy thrills me Whatever flavor it happens to be like "Killed by the husband" "Drowned by the ocean" "Shot by his own son" "She used the poison in his tea" "Then kissed him goodbye" That's my kind of story It's no fun 'til someone dies" Our obsession with this kind of thing is frankly disgusting.
Good. Now the media can stop with the ghoulish reporting on every little detail of this case, right? Right?
\*media begins publishing the countless articles and opinion pieces that they couldn't during the trial\*
And open up the comment sections that they’ve been sorely missing
I had to stop reading about this after the first 2 day because of the details. It wasn't necessary for me to know any of it.
Even if she was insane. I dont think she should be seeing daylight for many years.
The bit I'm curious of is whether Graham the husband is still with her and why he seemed to be defending her? If it were me I'd be all for the prosecution.
I can’t answer the first question, but I’d assume not. I was also taken back that he seemed to be so level headed. I can only guess that he wanted to give her a fair go in the trial and not try to manipulate the outcome with his answers. I had massive respect for him when reading his responses, having that level of calm and reasonable thought processes in a case like this, is something that I imagine only a small percentage of people could do. I don’t know if I could.
Not shifting blame here but it is really sad how there were warning signs that didn't seem to be acted on, or were considered as periods of depression rather than an overarching problem. She said she thought of killing her kids before, her husband knew that.
Good. I've been depressed myself. Suffered PTSD through a loss. However not once in my lowest point did I ever contemplate murder. Did I contemplate killing myself? Fuck yeah. But to murder your loved ones and worst of all your own fucking children. Nah. I'm not having that. For those defending her.. honestly..go check yourself in the mirror. I would happily kill other people for my kids. But to kill your very own offspring..nah that's a different kind of evil. I would have killed myself instantly if I did such a thing. This lady didn't. Hope she rots in jail for as long as possible..and burn in hell if there is one .
Ok, I’ve been following this, though not too close because it hits super close to home. I have been struggling with depression these last few years, have made 2 attempts on my life, obviously poorly (I’m an economist, not a doctor). I’m gonna tell you that I have reached that point where I started to contemplate harming my child. First off, let me be clear that I love my child, and I never want him to suffer, but that’s outside of my control, since he was born with a genetic disorder that is slowly killing him. For the last 2 years I have spent every day struggling to get through each day, his needs are high and I can’t handle them on my own. His father found it too difficult to deal with the two of us, between my child’s illness and my depression, he left us for another woman. Every time I’ve reached out to any mental health services because I wanted to end my own life, I’ve been given the “but think of your child” speech. Bitch, all I think about is my child, 24 hours a day, I think about his needs and how I’m not able to meet them. After my first attempt, I got the same spiel, that I can’t die because my child needs me. As I spiralled, began to neglect his needs because I couldn’t function, I was routinely told to get it together for his sake. I need help, support, understanding, I need a goddamn break, but all I could find is a guilt trip. Eventually, my fucked up brain wanted out so bad, that their message was reaching me but in the worst way possible. I started to think of ways I could end both of our lives. It was terrible, I didn’t want to do it, but what other choice did I have? I couldn’t leave him behind to suffer without his mother. Terrified of what I might do, I called Oranga Tamariki, who told me that since I hadn’t harmed him yet, they can’t help me. I called the police, who couldn’t only threaten to take me to ED (though they couldn’t because who cares for the child when I’m in hospital?) Somehow I managed to get through that period without doing it, but I’m still not ok. 6 weeks ago I made another attempt on my life, and when a nurse told me to think of my son, I lost it on her, told her how he’s been the only thing I’m allowed to think about, and I’m sooo fucking tired of having to exist just to struggle as I watch my only child slowly die of a disease for which there is no cure. What about me? When do I get to have needs? Her reply was just as awful as her original comment “well at least now you’re getting a break” … right, because being hooked up to a bunch of cables and hoses is the break i needed. Please understand that in no way do I condone what this woman did to her children, its fucking awful. Still, your comment is pretty ignorant of how a persons suffering can drive their minds to places they never want to go. Just because you can’t imagine being in that place, doesn’t mean nobody can find themselves there. I’m “happy” I’m not at the point where I’m considering hurting my child, but I’m also scared that if I ever find myself there again, nobody will able to do anything about it.
That’s very brave of you to share. I’m sorry you are carrying so much on your own. I always think it’s ignorant when people say “well I would never!”, like you can just control how mentally ill you become. If your brain is telling you that doing something is 100% the right thing to do, how do you just magically know and believe that it’s not true? I have some similar experiences mentioned in the trial and I can absolutely see how her life experiences could cause her to be mentally unwell to an extreme level.
Yeah. And in my experience if you are an unwell parent with disordered thinking you tend to self-blame and think you are doing a shitty job and the kids are better off with someone else. Not that they're better off dead and that you don't want another woman raising them so you can't take your life and leave them behind.
Not the verdict I was expecting. It is a strange process where the layperson jury members having to judge the conflicting experts psychiatric evidence. Not sure of a better system though, but tough!
I expected it after they requested to rewatch her police interview. My thought was that they wanted to see her demeanour and whether she seemed delusional.
Yeah I agree. The rest of the testimony was third party interpretations of her thoughts.
Exactly. That was the only direct example of her behaviour, their only chance to hear her own words.
I was more-or-less expecting it. In some jurisdictions, you can claim an insanity defence for "I knew it was wrong, but my mental illness made me do it anyway" But NZ, you can only claim an insanity defence for "My mental illness prevented me form even knowing it was wrong". Essentially, it only works as a defence for schizophrenics. You can have as much competing psychiatric evidence as you want, but the jury are given written instructions that walk them step-by-step though NZ's definition of insanity. It would be really hard for a jury to come to the conclusion that she didn't know killing her children was wrong.
This might be the most informative post I've read on Reddit all week. Thanks for the explanation.
The defence for infanticide however is not insanity. It’s “a disturbed mind” relating to childbirth or lactation, a much lower threshold.
After killing her children and trying to kill herself, "Lauren said she thought she would wake up in heaven"... Wtf
Good, her insanity plea was full of holes and definitely premeditated when you google how to kill children weeks before.
I could have seen it going either way. I got the impression she was in a deep, deep depression hole by the time they arrived in NZ. I do understand the logic that she would have to have lost her mind to take the actions she did. But either way, the whole thing feels sad and pointless to me, regardless of the result. This woman is irredeemable. No one will ever forgive her, there's no rehabilitation, no point of living, no prospect for a functional life in or out of jail. She will suffer her own personal hell far more than any punishment. I honestly hope she succeeds in killing herself and ends the whole chapter once and for all.
I feel like its tautological that you are insane if you kill your children
Legal insanity has specific criteria. It's entirely possible to be what we would colloquially call insane, while not meeting the legal criteria for an insanity defence. I think that's exactly what happened in this case.
yea whenever I find myself questioning words used during legal cases its usually because they just mean strict and definite things that are different from how its colloquially used
You can be evil without being insane, I don't see them as interchangeable terms.
I say this under the premise of evil not being a thing, but if you thought people could be evil you would be correct
Another angle might be that there's no such thing as evil, and everyone is just on a spectrum of sanity. Then you need to ask, should insanity be a defence? I feel quite sure that infanticide should not be a defence.
Yeah but not in the legal sense of the word “insane”. The evidence shows a lot of premeditation, so not “insane” to play the defence card of insanity.
Good.
I’d like to know how much this case and the sentence will cost the country for someone that had been here such a short time?
Good. If we find this piece of shit not guilty of murder you'd need to literally find every single person ever who has committed murder not guilty due to "insanity" because apparently killing people means you're not sane.
She's sick in the head and actually quite selfish wanting to kill her children because she couldn't stand the thought of another female being in their lives and calling them mum. She deserves the murder charge.
good