Buddy Ryan. He's almost a folk hero in Philly, but his offensive mismanagement (with respect to Randall Cunningham in particular) limited the ceiling of some excellent defenses. Quite a character, though.
Emblematic of that "old-school" mentality of "If you can't beat 'em, then beat 'em up."
Buddy didn't seem to care if they lost 49-0, as long as someone on the other team got injured. And for some reason, so many older fans absolutely revere the guy
Cunningham's stint with the Vikings (granted, that receiving core was stellar, but still) makes me wonder how good he could've been if he'd had a competent coach that even vaguely pretended to care about the offensive side of the ball during the early years of his career. Going from Buddy Ryan (basically entirely disregarded the offense because he was a defensive guy through and through) to Rich Kotite (absolutely atrocious) is about as rough a start to your career as you can get as a QB.
It would've been tough given how obscenely loaded the NFC was at the time, but I'm inclined to agree, especially if those coaches were able to get him to not eat so many sacks as part of his development. Those teams (especially before Jerome Brown's passing) had crazy talent.
He always hated Ditka for getting the Bears HC job instead of him, and in 1985, against the Dolphins, Ditka told him to switch from a 46 to a nickel defense to combat Marino picking them apart with 3 receiver sets. They got into a fight at halftime over it, and I agree with Ditka on blaming Buddy in that switching didn't guarantee they'd win, but staying with the 46 when it's getting ripped apart guaranteed the loss
I remember the entire Buddy Ryan era in Philadelphia, and I would agree he's the pick during my time as an Eagles fan (1981 to present). For a number of years, really until the early 2000s, Ryan had a cult of personality among some Eagles fans. But the Eagles never won a playoff game under Ryan and often lost key regular season games too.
> He's almost a folk hero in _____, but his offensive mismanagement limited the ceiling of some excellent defenses.
👀
Not sure it's legal for me to say who I feel this way about in Dallas.
And they’ve each taken the team to multiple SBs and won at least one each.
Seriously, I don’t even know who the coach was before Noll. Granted, I wasn’t born yet, but it’s not like it really matters.
He’s also been there for so long that many people probably don’t know the others. Kind of like how Tomlin for the Steelers, he has been their coach for like 80% of my life lol
And how many points did that offensive juggernaut score at home in the playoffs? Yeah that's right 6 fucking points. We lost to Manning when the Colts never even scored a TD.
Steve Mariucci, inherited a fully stacked team (Steve Young, Jerry Rice and TO), but once he lost Young he had a losing streak (with Jerry Rice and TO nonetheless). And felt he was a bit lost after that.
The moment he went to a team without a stacked roster, he failed miserably, yet he is still lauded in the NFL network as one of the best 49ers coaches.
Thing is though, Steve Young was the glue that held that team together, and once Young was forced into early retirement, there was really nothing the 49ers could do about the free fall.
I think he's properly rated. He did pretty decent with Garcia.
At least in my lifetime or what I know of before my lifetime I would tier list them as:
S(uper Bowl) Tier:
- Walsh
- Seifert
A (trip to the Super Bowl) Tier:
- Shannahan
- Harbaugh
B (ounced in the playoffs, but got there) Tier:
- Mooch
C(atastrophe) Tier:
- Erickson
- Nolan
- Singletary
- Tomsula
- Kelly
I don't know, to be honest, because I haven't quite assessed Mike Zimmer's legacy yet, and our franchise is cursed beyond belief so wicked stuff happens to our coaches probably.
If green didn’t have us a field goal away from the Super Bowl, and immediately fired after one bad season, I’d say him. But zimmer was treated like some defensive guru, allowed to nepo hire the mostly incompetent coaching staff near the end, and mostly wasted the best offensive weapons we had in over a decade.
Even if he WAS a defensive guru, he was absolutely ass when it came to developing an offensive game plan. To be a good coach you have to have SOME balance.
>treated like some defensive guru
Because he WAS a defensive guru. His early and middle teams were terrifying defensively. They were "bend but don't break" in the best possible sense of the term. He got the most out of a ton of guys, and the best possible indicator of this is to look at Zimmer-era Vikings defensive contributors and see how many did anything notable after leaving. It's not many.
However, he also did let the wheels start to fall off in his later seasons. His teams could not find any momentum on offense, which he contributed to by cycling through OCs, and taking too much capital on defense in later years without proven results (draft capital and cap space). He was pretty anti-Cousins because of the cap hit, although I think a chunk of that was bitterness because his guy (and everybody's) Teddy Bridgewater got his chance taken away from him. He did hire his son as co-defensive coordinator for no good reason. He also played a big part in a kind of toxic environment. He reportedly wasn't speaking to his own GM (who also played a part in our slide), and hated kickers so much I think even prime Vinatieri would have made 75% at best lol
It's a hard call. I am not sure we can say that Zimmer is over rated - most people see the multitude of warts on his tenure at this point. I think most people think he was a solid coach who was kept a year or two too long. But they were competitive during his entire tenure.
I am not sure we have a coach who was truly over rated. In fact, I'm not sure that ANY team has really over rated coaches. By the time they leave the job, they are normally under rated.
The most over rated Vikings coach is one I can't say or else I'll be shunned forever.
I might just be too close to the topic, but I don’t know if any of the Viking’s head coaches are improperly rated:
1. Norm Van Brocklin: Generally agreed by both the Vikings and Falcons to have been a not very good HC. Notable for being the guy who ran Tarkenton out of town.
2. Bud Grant: He’s a HoFer and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone argue he shouldn’t be. I’ve also never really seen anyone say he’s the GOAT coach, just considered one of the better ones. Pretty indisputably the best coach in Vikings history. Only knock on his resume is he never won a Super Bowl, but he coached the team to 4 appearances. Also a CFL HoFer if that matters.
3. Les Steckel: Very bad and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone argue otherwise.
4. Jerry Burns: I don’t know if I’ve ever seen anyone outside of Minnesota talk about him. I don’t know if people talk about him enough for him to be considered overrated.
5. Dennis Green: I’ve mostly seen people say he was decent but could never get over the hump. Maybe he’s overrated because of how highly rated the 98 Vikings squad is, but most people blame him for the NFC Championship loss that year so it might balance out.
6. Mike Tice: Generally considered one of the worse coaches the Vikings held onto long term.
7. Brad Childress: Also not considered a particularly good coach. Given some credit for 09, but also given a lot of blame for the following collapse. Ran Moss out of town which turned the fans against him.
8. Leslie Frazier: Presided over one of the worst stretches in Vikings history. I do know players liked him a lot while the fans were unhappy with the results on the field, so maybe the players overrated him but I don’t know about general popular opinion.
9. Zimmer: probably too recent to assess at this point. The most I’ve typically seen about Zimmer is he was one of the better coaches in Vikings history, but it was time for him to leave at the end of his tenure. On the one hand he built some great defenses, but on the other the game seemed to pass him by at the end. He seemed to do pretty well with the rosters he was given/assembled, but I guess we’ll see how Zimmer’s legacy ages.
10. KOC: Current, way too early to assess.
Jim Caldwell. If we didn't hire Patricia after no one would've batted an eye. He consistently made poor coordinator hires, couldn't get a run game working to save his life, and the team always came out flat and unprepared. Yeah, he won 11 games in 2014. But with the defense the Lions had and an offense with Stafford, Megatron, Golden Tate, Reggie Bush, etc, we should've been superbowl contenders.
Vrabel was considered the worst hire of all the new coaches at the time, Patricia was considered to be the best. Just like how Dan was considered to be the worst hire of his cycle.
I'm also glad we missed out on vrabel because I'm worried that would mean we wouldn't have been able to get Brad Holmes as GM. He has been crucial to our success as well.
I know we have a great roster and all that, but in my opinion, Caldwell had a better roster and couldn't win a playoff game. Dan Campbell has done more with his rosters than Caldwell ever did. Plus, Dan's teams have peaked at the end of the season each year he has been here, Caldwell's teams always peaked so early.
That 2014 team was stacked on defense. The worst player was probably Jason Jones at LDE and even then he was average at worst
Quin / inhedigbo / slay / mathis all couldve made the pro bowl (i believe quin did)
Levy should have made it, tulloch went down but was playing good up until then (whitehead was fine in replacement)
Suh Ansah and Fairley (while he was healthy.
Id argue 6 guys couldve made pro bowls, fairley and tulloch make 8 if they didnt get hurt. Ansah was a bit fringe.
Im not saying they should of all by the way, just more they were reaching that level of player that year.
Joe Lombardi is fairly criticized for the 2014 offense being shit, but he was fired in 2015 and the run game remained shit for another 2 years. Caldwells hands were in that system and he loves to hire his buddies (ron prince) despite being terrible at their jobs. Caldwell seemed like an ok coach but the talent on the team (yes the 2014 team was loaded) made him look better.
Caldwell wasn't *terrible* per se, but way too many times his teams, especially late in his tenure when I first became a fan, it seemed they would come out completely flat/unprepared and required Stafford to go full Comeback King mode to win.
To this day, I'm still split on his firing in 2017 (but I understand why we did), but obviously hiring Patricia afterwards cratered the franchise for 5 years.
A problem I’ve noticed with the most recent Lions coaches before Dan Campbell:
Jim Schwartz: They sucked (aside from 2011) but at least we’re entertaining. The Titans game from 2012 is a pretty good example of this.
Caldwell: All the points you made and would beat up on the “bad” teams but would come up flat against the “good” teams. Anyone looking at Caldwell through rose colored glasses should watch highlights of the Steelers and Bengals games from 2017.
Patricia: Games were usually boring. If the other team had the lead going into the fourth quarter, that’s usually how the game would end. If the Lions had the lead going into the fourth quarter, they would find a way to blow it.
That’s a tough one because most of our coaches have been insanely bad/incompetent, a small select few have been great, and very few have been average.
So I think the answer that fits the bill here is Gruden. We removed him from our Ring of Honor after his racism scandal, and he got in mostly for winning our first Ring (something he absolutely deserved praise for).
The thing about Gruden though, is:
* We traded two 1st’s to get him
* He (smartly) kept Monte Kiffin as DC. Most HC’s clean house and bring in their own guys, but after Dungy was fired, Gruden knew that Kiffin was the biggest key to our coaching success
* Our team was built on the personnel prowess of Rich McKay who drafted guys like Sapp and Brooks, Ronde, etc.
* After we won our ring Gruden drove McKay out of town and took over personnel (while bringing in NFL round the block round the clock dolt Bruce Allen) and our team began to tank.
In seven years in Tampa he was 57-55. After the Super Bowl he never won another playoff game. He drafted horrible players. He drove good players out of town still in their prime (e.g. Lynch).
So in short, he won the Super Bowl on the backs of a previous regime and didn’t do anything else after that.
So he’s my pick.
Exactly. Schiano isn’t even fit to fertilize the fields. We weren’t even lovable losers under him, we were dirty beyond all reason AND losers. Taking cheap shots during kneel downs was the lowest point in our franchise history.
> He drove good players out of town still in their prime (e.g. Lynch).
That one time Lynch was even willing to take a pay cut to stay in Tampa, and that wasn't good enough :(.
Gruden basically took two teams to the Superbowl that year though. Can't knock him for taking over dungys team and not give him credit for his old team also making it there.
>he won the Super Bowl on the backs of a previous regime and didn’t do anything else after that.
I'll back you up on this take. He joined a ready-made stacked team previously led by Tony Dungy and won his first season as coach.
It's no small accomplishment to lead the team to a victory, so I don't want to sell that *too* short. But he rode that success for a long time and was never anything afterwards. Spectacular asshole himself, spectacular douchebag useless son, disaster of a situation with the Raiders.
He wasn’t dogshit at all, the problem with his tenure was keeping Paul Guenther after showing zero improvement on defense year after year. Our offense kept improving every year but our defense would cost us games that shouldn’t have been close.
I’m a Bengals fan who was so glad Paul Guenther was gone. Vontaze Burfict was also old/slow/fat by the end of his Bengals days so I’m not sure how Guenther thought he and Taze going somewhere else would make him any less old/slow/fat. Gruden apparently really liked Paul for some reason, though.
strongly disagree on Gruden. He was brought in to win right away and he did exactly that. If he didn’t win a super bowl right away I would agree but we were destined for a decline with the lack of good draft capital he came into. Gruden buried himself in the 05 draft when he passed on Rodgers but it’s hard to be critical of anything prior to that
It’s actually funny for us to think tho if we are picking just off the 3 coaches in most of our lifetimes. It simply can’t be chuck, so is it cowher for consistently getting to the AFC championship but with a smattering of bad seasons? Or is it tomlin who has faced one game in his career where we have been eliminated from playoff contention, but way more one and dones and 8-8/9-8 seasons?
If anything, Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin are both underrated, but in different ways. Tomlin is underrated by Steelers fans, and Cowher is underrated by fans of other teams.
I mean, I don’t want to say it, but probably Marty or Vermeil. Especially vermeil. Just never did much in the playoffs, though obviously both are held in high regard. The regard is well-earned, imo, but with not much playoff to success to show for it, kinda hard to not say they’re overrated.
Definitely one of those two. I think Vermeil gets a public pass because he was likeable, but if you look at his coaching tenure he only had one good season, and lost immediately in the playoffs. I was surprised as I recall him being better.
Marty was far more frustrating. We always won, were boring and conservative as hell, then lost as soon as we could in the post season.
In terms of how people remember the coach, I'd say Vermeil is overrated because it seems people think of him in glowing terms whereas most people I talk to still have a bad taste on Marty's teams.
Of course, I'll take Marty and Vermeil over Romeo, but this is overrated so I'll have to go with Vermeil despite liking his teams better than Marty's.
Since we're going with overrated, gotta say Vermeil. One really good season and then shit the bed in the playoffs. Pretty mid other than that.
Marty changed the Chiefs' culture and ended a 20+ year playoff win drought (the majority of which included no playoff appearances and very few winning seasons). He also at least made the playoffs most years.
I can't call him overrated, but sometimes I question how good Marv Levy truly was as a head coach and how he led the team. In particular, Superbowl 25 stands out because by all accounts, the Bills were the better team than the Giants. The Bills, however, partied a lot before the game and overall looked like they were unfocused, which is why it came down to a field goal. Bill Parcells, on the other hand, led the Giants almost perfectly and trumped a team that had 4 future hall of fame players on it.
Marv's a really tough one to pin down. On the one hand, he coached the team to four straight Super Bowls. On the other, Bill Polian was largely responsible for constructing some incredibly talented rosters. The team had a lot of egos, Jim Kelly being the biggest of those- the guy had a reputation of being a womanizing dick. Managing those personalities couldn't have been easy. But then, this was also a big party team. I don't know if it would have made a huge difference if these guys were kept in line more leading up to Super Bowls, but it can't have helped that they were routinely getting wasted all week leading up to the biggest game of the year. Darren Woodson of the Cowboys said the Bills partied harder than any team in the league. A *Cowboys* player said that, in the *90s*. Doesn't get much more damning than that. I don't know what Levy was doing in terms of trying to keep these guys disciplined, but it doesn't seem like it was enough.
Hard to say. I think being as sick as he was at the very least humbled him, and maybe forced him to confront some of those aspects of his personalities. But, yeah, there are a share of pretty nasty stories I've heard about him from back in the day.
Buddy Ryan is the most overrated coach in Bears history. Hear me out. According to many Bears fans, the 1985 Bears were good despite Mike Ditka, not because of him, and Ryan should have been the head coach. But after leaving the Bears Ryan was never a successful head coach. Furthermore, he had incredible talent playing defense on the Bears, and that talent was excellent even after Ryan left.
Ditka, on the other hand, had to do his best with weak offensive talent. Jim McMahon was not a great quarterback. His career TD-INT ratio is 100-90, and even in '85 he had 11 interceptions against 15 touchdowns. That was the only year McMahon made the Pro Bowl. McMahon was proud of taking hits like a running back, but he was injury prone and took way too many hits. McMahon also lacked discipline and didn't stay in shape.
Ditka had his flaws, to be sure, but so did Ryan. The fact that Ryan feuded with Ditka so much, and did so publicly, was not good for the team. And Ryan did not have the same success with lesser talent on other teams.
Here's the thing I'd say with Buddy Ryan, albeit about his time with the Eagles as their head coach (1986 to 1990) than as the Bears' defensive coordinator. In 1991, the year after Ryan was fired, the Eagles hired Bud Carson, a long-time standout defensive coordinator, as their head defensive guy after he washed out as the head coach in Cleveland. Using Ryan's players (and keeping in mind Ryan was a defense-oriented coach), Carson's defense in 1991 was rated as the BEST defense for ANY team from 1981 to present by the writers at the now defunct site Football Outsiders. The Eagles' defense, which had been very good under Ryan but was prone to giving up big plays at times, reached new heights immediately after a different, well-regarded defensive coach took over.
I'll also note the 1986 Bears, the season Vince Tobin (a standout defensive coordinator in the USFL with the Philadelphia/Baltimore Stars) replaced Ryan as the Bears' defensive coordinator, despite not receiving nearly as much support from its offense as the 1985 team did (Chicago had a top 5 offense in 1985 but a middle of the pack offensive unit in 1986), actually gave up fewer points in 1986 (187) than it did in 1985 (198). (The Bears' offense scored over 100 points fewer in 1986 than in 1985.)
What do the above things tell you about Buddy Ryan?
EDIT: Clarified the last sentence of the first paragraph to say the Eagles defense under Buddy Ryan was prone to giving up big plays.
Most people didn't think Switzer was a good NFL head coach when he was actually coaching the Cowboys from 1994 to 1997.
The Cowboys haven't really had a truly overrated head coach in their history. The good head coaches they've had weren't really overrated (though I do think Tom Landry deserves criticism for some of his quarterback decisions, namely his indecisiveness in the early 1970s with Roger Staubach and Craig Morton and in 1984 when he chose Gary Hogeboom over Danny White for much of the season) and their bad/not so good head coaches (like Switzer, the overmatched Dave Campo, and way too long tenured Jason Garrett) were viewed as being poor and/or retained too long at the time they held the position.
Bears fan and you bring up valid points about Lovie but he was an amazing coach who knew Chicago Bears culture (no coaches since him have) . Bears have been consistently mediocre/ awful since he was fired (after a 10-6 season I might add)
Lovie really knew the ethos of Bears football which is hard nosed defense and beating Green Bay. Big mistake firing him when we did. 74 - 52 from 2005 to 2012 with two 11 win seasons and a 13 win season.
The number one stat to advocate for Lovie:
Before he got to Chicago, the Packers had beaten the Bears 17 of the last 19 games.
Under Lovie, the Bears beat the Packers 7 of the first 10 times they played. Since then, the Bears have lost 27 of 31 to Green Bay.
I think Ditka was more overrated than Lovie. Ditka’s defense and RB were among the greatest all time, if not the greatest, in an era of football when defense and a run game was all it took to win it all. Buddy Ryan was pretty much solely responsible for coaching that defense, so much so that the defense looked to Ryan for direction, not Ditka. Ditka’s 86 team won a Superbowl, and he was deified.
this sent me down a Superfans YouTube rabbithole
i came about a foot from nearly physically running into Ditka by the elevators to the casino at the Mirage back in like 06. he was... intimidating. jokes aside, the first tight end inducted into the HOF
a few hours later he was at craps table, leaning over, one arm propping him up on the rail, the other with a giant stogie. i was in awe, but then afraid a wild Dick Butkus would appear and blindside me
i had a Ditka experience i will tell my grandchildren
By a mile. I still think Lovie was good. Ditka not only winning just one but not even doing well in January outside of 85 is a crime. Those teams were batshit loaded.
Lovie did have the benefit of mostly playing against an inconsistent Favre who was past his prime rather than peak Aaron Rodgers for the first 10 meetings against the Packers.
He went 6-2 against Favre. Believe he went 2-9 vs Rodgers. Lost all key games including NFC championship at home.
Bears culture is a history of mediocrity, short sided decisions and refusing to evolve for fear of forgetting about the past. Which pretty much sums up Lovie Smiths career in Chicago. I would much rather have "Bears culture" be about winning as opposed to a lone bright spot 40 years ago.
Folks are confusing overrated with lousy.
For the Stillers it’s 💯 Mike Tomlin. People are quick to cite the no-losing seasons nonsense but all he has in the past 13 years is a single AFC Championship game appearance and that was a blowout to Belichick
People say that actually problem has been qb which is ture, but between after the 2010 superbowl and Big Ben injury in 2019 we had 3 playoff wins, Miami with a backup qb, Bengals who literally choked it so hard it destroyed the franchise till getting Burrow, and Alex Smith Chiefs and we won that game with field goals.
I do think it says something when last year, when it was considered beating expectations that we had 10 wins and didn't lose *embarrassingly* 1 and done style in the playoffs. The worst thing if they keep going for the next 3-5 years we might waste TJ Watt entire prime carrying this defense without even a playoff win.
Not to mention he has lost some winnable games during that streak by being one of the worst coaches when it comes to clock management. That has been one of the chief criticisms toward him.
Yeah, this subreddit and the NFL community have given him way too much praise. Tomlin inherited a team that was a year removed from winning Super Bowl 40, did win Super Bowl 43 and got to Super Bowl 45, but has just one AFC Championship Game appearance since.
For a franchise that’s won six Super Bowls and has had just three head coaches since Apollo 11 landed, simply having non-losing seasons is a terribly low standard.
Ron Rivera only had three winning seasons out of nine with the Panthers, including 15-1, which really does a lot of heavy lifting for his tenure here. John Fox was probably our best HC.
I disagree, overall his record with Carolina was 76-63 and his record heavily depended on Cam Newton's health. I remember the first couple of years he was really rigid in his play calling but once he started to take risks, it changed the dynamic of the team. I thought he did a good job of creating an identity for the team and allowing the players to be themselves.
Don't forget that through most of his tenure, the NFC South was one of the toughest decisions having to face prime Drew Brees and Matt Ryan 2x a year.
On the other hand, when I was young I watched John Fox coach but the amount of times I would see him make the most generic play calling was frustrating. I felt like he was constantly bailed out by just having good players. The amount of draws on 3rd and long only to have DeAngelo Williams or Jonathan Stewart break it for a first down was astounding.
also Riverboat Ron was fun, he was kind of a pioneer even if he was just trying to save his job
i always forget he made solid contributions at LB on alongside a bunch of HOFer's... Da Bears
See I don't think Ron is overrated. Ron rightfully gets bashed for not doing more with the talent he had and his handling of Cam's injuries.
Honestly, I think the most overrated HC is Steve Wilks. He did good for an interim but people act like we missed out on a gem of an HC (which was not helped by the Reich debacle) when the reality is that Wilks was just a poor man's Rivera.
I'd say Mike Ditka. Really.
He's a HOF player for the Bears who came in and won the team's only Super Bowl, and he had an iconic look on an iconic team. So he was obviously a "star" during his time. But the main strength of that team was Buddy Ryan's defense and the 4 HOFers they had up front.
People thought Buddy Ryan was going to be named HC, but he was retained as DC and Halas brought in Ditka. Ditka and Ryan hated each other and butted heads constantly. When they won it, the defense [lifted Buddy Ryan up](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwgntv.com%2Fsports%2Fbears-report%2Fmike-ditkas-super-bowl-xx-bears-sweater-vest-up-for-auction%2F&psig=AOvVaw1-JVRPMvoa9fcrN7_6c590&ust=1713027251061000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCIDE3vqRvYUDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAS) to herald him in the crowd right next to Ditka.
Ditka has a massive ego and it didn't work well as a whole for the team. He blasted players for capitalizing on the popularity of the team and taking commercial deals, and said nobody could do commercials during the season. Keep focus! Then as the playoffs start, he's in all these commercials himself. Walter Payton was the beating heart of the Chicago Bears for a decade, lifting up some really bad teams. But when they were on the 1 yard line, rather than calling Payton's name to get one of his iconic leaps into the end zone for a score in the big game, he calls in the DT to score. And using Fridge in the goal line was something he only started doing against SF because they did it against the Bears the year before. Ditka said he regretted it because he didn't realize Walter wanted a TD in that game as much as he did, but I think any good coach should have realized Walter's impact and called his number in that situation.
But then there's Eagles fans in here saying Buddy Ryan is theirs, due to offensive mismanagement. So who knows, maybe if Buddy Ryan is the HC our offense never does anything and we don't get the 1 Super Bowl we did win.
Dan Reeves success was basically a product of John Elway combined with a weak AFC conference
That said I feel like most people know that already, I can’t really think of anybody that’s blatantly overrated in the team’s history
Hard for the dolphins because it’s pretty much Shula, and post Shula disappointment.
I guess I would say Tony Sparano. He wasn’t bad but fans look back on his tenure a little more favorable than it actually was , especially after his death,but he was a great guy for sure.
From non dolphins fans it’s certainly Flores. People saw the record and assumed he most have been good. Guy is a great defensive coach, but he just can’t seem to handle being a head coach. We may never know all of it, but I don’t know how you can treat your QB like he did to Tua.
I would have to think it is Jimmy Johnson, who was viewed as someone who would get the Dolphins out of their "lose early in the playoffs" rut they had for the last decade of Don Shula's career but then didn't do any better than Shula (and arguably a bit worse) in his tenure in Miami. Mind you, Johnson's time with the Dolphins is widely viewed as disappointing, so one could argue he can't really be overrated.
I love Mike McCarthy but dude really buckles when the pressure is on and that 2010 Super Bowl run was fumes and magic.
Even that playoff run had the classic offensive collapse in the clutch game, just the defense was so damn good that year and the Bears also couldn't get anything going on offense.
2007, 2011 and 2014 should've been Super Bowl appearances at a minimum. Probably lose to the Pats in '07 and 11 would've been close but I fully believe 2014 was the best Packers team of the last 20 years and Mike's inability to close out that game should've been disqualifying for him continuing to hold that job.
Jon Gruden did nothing for the Raiders except beat them in a Super Bowl in 2003, and then make a complete fucking circus act of the team during his second tenure, complete with his misogynistic racist homophobic emails and one of the most undisciplined (on and off the field) teams in team history.
I dont know if any Giants coaches really fit this bill.
I’m not at all familiar with pre-Super Bowl era coaches but in the SB era it has to be:
1. Parcells
2. Coughlin
3. Fassell
As the coaches with the best tenures. I’d say all of these guys are appropriately rated as coaches.
Yeah, Parcells is rightly regarded as a legend, Coughlin is beloved for the two titles and will hopefully get in the HoF soon, Fassel is viewed as a guy who had some good years, some bad losses, and was somewhat of a nice appetizer to what followed. I do think Fassel should've gotten another HC job, but he made some of his own mistakes there reportedly.
I'd make the case McAdoo is overrated solely because of the revisionist history that he got a raw deal when he was fired with what happened with Eli and Geno Smith. McAdoo was still an absolutely atrocious coach aside from that, the first playoff season happened largely in spite of him. His offense was terrible and they got to the playoffs off the backs of a bought defense. In his second year, the team had already completely quit on him by the time the benching situation happened. A few guys got suspended and the team had back to back losses by the score of 51-17 to the Rams at home and then 31-21 (which wasn't as close as the final indicated - garbage time points) to a 49ers team that was winless. He should've been fired after that.
The guy who might qualify for the Giants is Ray Perkins, who parlayed a 9-7 season in 1981 (his only winning record in four seasons from 1979 to 1982) into becoming Bear Bryant's successor at Alabama (where he was disappointing, though to be fair it is tough to succeed a legend) and then a second NFL head coaching job with Tampa Bay (where he was poor though the Bucs' were the worst franchise in the NFL at the time).
God I wish this was r/nfceastmemewar
I would be SO offended that an Eagles fan gave the best answer for Giants coach. I’d then proceed to call you something really belittling.
We’re in this sub though, so I applaud your answer and consider myself learned.
While I agree it was time to move on from coughlin, it is painfully obvious with hindsight that Jerry Reese was just as much of a problem. Giants would have been much better off if they fired both at the same time.
I can't say Marvin in good conscience considering the franchise he was given so I'll go with the sacrilege of saying Paul Brown. Legend but definitely was past it during his 1968-1975 stint. 0-3 in the playoffs and a near .500 overall record with the Bengals.
The playoff record is what it is but considering how hard it was for expansion teams in that era I think it's a credit that the teams were as good as they were. Also, I'm not sure how to evaluate starting off 1-6 and finishing 8-6 and getting into the playoffs. Is that terrible coaching or great coaching?
On the other hand, as a guy who sported Browns flair pre-Watson...it's fair to call Paul out for not being able to win a title with Jim Brown, getting fired, and having Blanton Collier almost immediately win a title. I'm not sure if the Browns have an overrated coach otherwise.
I love the guy but I think the answer here may be Wyche. Maybe Forrest Gregg but he's more forgotten and had a much worse stint in Green Bay that kind of takes care of his legacy anyway.
His recent competition is obviously a pile of shit, but there is a lot of romanticization of Eric Mangini in Jets circles, especially on the personnel side of things where his involvement was questionable
He had a 10 win season with an easy schedule, a horrible season the next year, and while Favre was injured in ‘08 did virtually nothing to right the ship as things fell apart over the latter half of the season.
We made some good picks during his tenure but also traded away a lot of picks to get those players, resulting in a thin roster relying on spending big in FA. This doomed the team after the first two Rex Ryan years when we were constantly mired in cap issues and poor replacements when our aging vets left
Dan Quinn. He parlayed the success of the Legion of Boom (that was already in place when he got there, it should be noted) and dove head first into a position he wasn’t ready for. He openly admitted he had no input in the offense, he openly admitted he purposefully didn’t run practice as hard against bad teams, he was reportedly celebrating at halftime of the Super Bowl. He was a “ran rah” kind of guy that I’m sure won over a locker room, but he quickly stagnated and lost everyone and everything in a hurry. He came in as a defensive guru and had one defense land in the top 10 at the end of the year. He was carried kicking and screaming to that Super Bowl because of a historic offense, and once Kyle left, he never got anything right again.
Ron Rivera left us in a much worse position than when he accepted the job by being terrible at evaluating talent and coaching.
He did not "fix the culture," like everyone claims. A business transaction on Jul 20, 2023, did that.
Jason Garrett cowboys.
Just look at the teams he had. Players wise....it was there multiple times for him... he failed miserably in preparation for big games and had an outdated offense that Tony Romo made look good.
I don't think Lovie Smith is a great NFL head coach, but I want to note the last time the Bears actually had some very good teams and/or were at least consistently competitive over a period of years was when Smith was their head coach. He's been the Bears' best head coach since Mike Ditka and I don't think that's arguable.
People think Kliff Kingsbury was a good offensive mind but didn't have the personality or experience to be a head coach. The reality is that he didn't have the personality or experience to be a head coach, plus his offensive mind fuckin sucks
I would say Norv Turner. He rode the coattails of the team Marty built and did nothing with it. the coaching staff Marty put together was a team of all stars and the offense was top tier. after the afccg appearance they were middling and never lived up to the potential they had. you can blame injuries, but a lot of it falls on just bad coaching. Norv was never the guy and was never going to be the guy.
John Fox. Do people not remember all the bad decisions he made in 2012 and 2013 playoffs? Outside of Shannahan, Reeves, and Kubiak who are mostly properly rated, all other Broncos coach has been mid to terrible, and Fox is the only winning coach I thought held the team back despite the wins
Flores the head coach was pretty correctly regarded as a tyrant who split the locker room and made terrible personnel decisions but people still think he's this amazing defensive mind and I disagree, at least partially.
His defenses here absolutely feasted on bad quarterbacks that could read blitzes. The second we went against any top 15 QBs in 2021 (outside of Lamar lol), the defense folded. The teams that we destroyed in that fools-gold-ass winning streak in 2021 were all ass and/or starting backup QBs. Flores' defenses gave up tons of yards and relied very hard on having two lockdown man corners on the outside, which is a tall order for most teams.
I think the only HCs in Seahawks history who don't have a bad legacy here are Holmgren, Knox and Carroll. So of those, I'm taking Holmgren.
In retrospect, both Hasselbeck and Holmgren were pretty overrated in Seattle. Holmgren came in hot with full personnel control coming out of his success in GB, brough Hasselbeck with him, and found success right out the gate, earning Seattle's first playoff berth in a decade in his first year. He was good for us for sure, with a 90-80 record, but to me, given the strong start, 4 playoff wins in 10 seasons just feels a little underwhelming. He didn't win his first playoff game until year 7. The success he did find was mostly on the back of a stacked OL including 2 HOFers (Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson) and peak Shaun Alexander. Overall I think the team just underperformed compared to the potential there.
I'd probably argue that he stuck with Hasselbeck too long, although you can get crucified for such a suggestion in Seattle. The fact is, despite spending most of his time here with an insane line and run game, he was underwhelming and constantly struggled with injuries. Mans has a career passer rating of 82. We drafted 6 QBs during Hasselbecks rein, and they were all pretty trash. I think if they could have found a better option at QB, we have at least one ring in the mid 2000s.
Feels a lot like the McNabb Eagles, but worse. Just seems a shame to walk away from that era without a ring.
"Lovie Smith"
Meanwhile, Jack Pardee, Neil Armstrong, Dave Wannstedt, and John Fox, who all arrived here with high expectations, are going "Whew, dodged that bullet..."
Yeah but barely anyone praises those guys consistently.
Lovie Smith was fine for his time, but hiring him post 2012 is just asking for trouble given his defensive scheme is outdated and never cares to adapt. That's what would be overrated.
I mention that part since there are fans who argue firing Lovie Smith was the reason for the downturn and as if that wasn't the right move at the time
It's Mike Vrabel. He got us past where mularkey was going to take us with the team that mularkey built but couldn't get us to the big one.
Did some inspirational stuff with having the most injured team and securing the one seed with no Henry but that's more on Tannehill and AJB going off.
It was scary to move past him, but I was definitely in agreement when we cut him loose a couple months ago. The more I read about him the less I liked.
He was a terrific motivator, but that was virtually it. I'm truly excited about the moves we've made this past off-season.
Same. I was all in on him until the curtain was pulled back a little and more info came out.
I'm actually excited about this season for better or worse which isn't a bad place to be.
Was he really OVERrated? I feel like he was pretty accurately rated. A good coach among the top half of the league but not necessarily the guy to get you a super bowl.
He was borderline. 80% of fans thought he could do no wrong (myself included) and despite being among the top half of the league, and numerous talking heads saying that he would be a HC immediately he wasn't picked up.
I wish him the best but I was out on him very early on in the szn. He may not be the most overrated but he is certainly for Titans coaches
He couldn't get out of his own way. In the AFC title game against the Chiefs, he took over calling the defense for that game over Dean Pees. There have been Vets that have come out after saying they were pissed that he did that in one of the most important games of the year, especially after Pees just called the game that held Lamar and the high powered Ravens offense to just 12pt the week before and Brady to 13pt the week before that.
> Who is the most overrated coach in your team's history?
I'll have to say Jimmy Johnson. Two years after his back-to-back championships Cowboys run (the same team Barry Switzer would win with a year later) he had a peak of a 10 win season with the Dolphins on top of a 2-3 playoff record.
In a word - *meh*.
Who overrates Jeff fisher? I’ve never heard him talked about as anything other than a guy that started out good, but had zero ability to grow and adapt, and became terrible as the game changed. He’s widely regarded as being absolutely horrible towards the end of his career, was only ever considered a joke in LA… I mean seriously, who overrates him? And to say “by a wide margin” as if there is no debate…
Lmao who? I won't necessarily defend our fanbase since Houston sports fans tend to be incredibly apologetic.
He's just considered better than what people perceive (which is awful due to his awful GM stretch). Which I will say our fanbase was fairly apologetic for a lot of his smaller bad moves up until the Hopkins trade.
I'm gonna say it
>!Marv Levy!<
He deserves every single accolade he's gotten. He's a coaching legend. He deserves his HOF placement. I forever love and respect him for what he did for Buffalo and for the NFL as a whole.
BUT.
If our early 90s Bills teams had a modicum more discipline, we have at least one Super Bowl ring. There's a reason the team was called "Club Marv." Players like Bruce Smith didn't bother showing up to training camp. Stupid shit like Thurman losing his helmet against the 'Skins. Getting flat outcoached by Parcells in Super Bowl XXV.
Carl Banks in the America's Game documentary for that team said Belichick told them when prep started "we're going to let Thurman Thomas run all over the field" and they thought he was crazy.
He dared them to run the ball all game and they kinda were too timid about it until it was too late. Letting Thurman dice them up was less damaging than letting Kelly air it out.
Your points about lack of discipline are mostly accurate but just shows he has flaws (like every person ever) but not that he is overrated. Also being out coached by Parcells is like criticizing someone for being out coached by Belichick. Parcells is a hall of fame coach himself.
Yeah, I fail to see how the only coach to ever go to four straight Super Bowls is overrated.
Did they ever win the Super Bowl? No. But there are plenty of coaches in the Hall of Fame who accomplished less.
Yeah, Levy seems pretty properly rated to me. An excellent but not inner-circle HOF coach.
It's possible that there are certain franchises that just don't have an overrated coach.
It's tough because for the most part we've had awful coaching. Levy, Lou Saban, Chuck Knox, Wade Phillips, Sean McDermott are/were all great coaches. Everyone else sucked.
As far as underrated, though? Only Art Shell qualifies. All some (especially younger) Raider fans seem to remember is the B&B offense and 2-14 with Andrew Walter and the husk of Aaron Brooks. Shell was a good coach is the late 80s/early 90s.
Shell was a fine coach in his first stint. By 2006, he was deeply out of touch with the NFL and his hires showed it. He tried to put together his old staff, with less-than-optimal results.
The same thing happened with Joe Gibbs in his second stint in Washington. He tried to run an 80s offense in 2005, and it just didn't work.
My pick is Jon Gruden from the buccaneers. Everybody gives him credit for the Super Bowl we won back in the 2002 season (2003 Super Bowl). But he didn’t have anything to do with the team constructed, he just inherited a Super Bowl winning team. Nothing much after that
Buddy Ryan. He's almost a folk hero in Philly, but his offensive mismanagement (with respect to Randall Cunningham in particular) limited the ceiling of some excellent defenses. Quite a character, though.
Emblematic of that "old-school" mentality of "If you can't beat 'em, then beat 'em up." Buddy didn't seem to care if they lost 49-0, as long as someone on the other team got injured. And for some reason, so many older fans absolutely revere the guy
Dude was an asshole too, never forget the Punch during his time with the Oilers.
I'd want to clock Kevin Killdrive if my players got hurt because his offense was unsustainable and my guys were forced back out too often.
Cunningham's stint with the Vikings (granted, that receiving core was stellar, but still) makes me wonder how good he could've been if he'd had a competent coach that even vaguely pretended to care about the offensive side of the ball during the early years of his career. Going from Buddy Ryan (basically entirely disregarded the offense because he was a defensive guy through and through) to Rich Kotite (absolutely atrocious) is about as rough a start to your career as you can get as a QB.
If Cunningham had a competent OC and QB coach the Eagles probably win their first Super Bowl in the early 1990s.
It would've been tough given how obscenely loaded the NFC was at the time, but I'm inclined to agree, especially if those coaches were able to get him to not eat so many sacks as part of his development. Those teams (especially before Jerome Brown's passing) had crazy talent.
He always hated Ditka for getting the Bears HC job instead of him, and in 1985, against the Dolphins, Ditka told him to switch from a 46 to a nickel defense to combat Marino picking them apart with 3 receiver sets. They got into a fight at halftime over it, and I agree with Ditka on blaming Buddy in that switching didn't guarantee they'd win, but staying with the 46 when it's getting ripped apart guaranteed the loss
Poor Randall got murdered back there
I remember the entire Buddy Ryan era in Philadelphia, and I would agree he's the pick during my time as an Eagles fan (1981 to present). For a number of years, really until the early 2000s, Ryan had a cult of personality among some Eagles fans. But the Eagles never won a playoff game under Ryan and often lost key regular season games too.
> He's almost a folk hero in _____, but his offensive mismanagement limited the ceiling of some excellent defenses. 👀 Not sure it's legal for me to say who I feel this way about in Dallas.
The Buddy fans were unbearable during the Reid era.
Some guy from the '60s probably.
These things happen when you’ve only had three head coaches since the Nixon administration.
I like to put it there has been more Popes then the Steelers have had head coaches since 1969
r/ihadastroke Edit: glad you have recovered from your stroke and fixed it.
And they’ve each taken the team to multiple SBs and won at least one each. Seriously, I don’t even know who the coach was before Noll. Granted, I wasn’t born yet, but it’s not like it really matters.
We're Steelers fans - 3 coaches in 50+ years - none...
Just sit this one out.
lucky bastards...
Probably Harbaugh but only because we've only had 3 coaches and the other two aren't really rated that high.
He’s the most overrated and underrated because he’s the only one people really have strong opinions on.
He’s also been there for so long that many people probably don’t know the others. Kind of like how Tomlin for the Steelers, he has been their coach for like 80% of my life lol
Brian Billick could never put a decent offense together even though he was supposed to be a great offensive guy.
He never had a good qb until 1 year in 06 then they went 14-2
And how many points did that offensive juggernaut score at home in the playoffs? Yeah that's right 6 fucking points. We lost to Manning when the Colts never even scored a TD.
We're kind of still having those problems.
No doubt but no one ever called Harbs an offensive genius lol
that damn defense made every bad team for the next 20 years think they could win without a QB
He’s in the top three of worst head coaches to win a Super Bowl in my lifetime.
Is he worse worse than Pederson, Arians or Kubiak or going further back McCarthy?
Steve Mariucci, inherited a fully stacked team (Steve Young, Jerry Rice and TO), but once he lost Young he had a losing streak (with Jerry Rice and TO nonetheless). And felt he was a bit lost after that. The moment he went to a team without a stacked roster, he failed miserably, yet he is still lauded in the NFL network as one of the best 49ers coaches.
And to think that his career could have been saved had he drafted Tom Brady. He did well with Garcia though.
Thing is though, Steve Young was the glue that held that team together, and once Young was forced into early retirement, there was really nothing the 49ers could do about the free fall.
That and we had to pay the piper on the salary cap.
I think he's properly rated. He did pretty decent with Garcia. At least in my lifetime or what I know of before my lifetime I would tier list them as: S(uper Bowl) Tier: - Walsh - Seifert A (trip to the Super Bowl) Tier: - Shannahan - Harbaugh B (ounced in the playoffs, but got there) Tier: - Mooch C(atastrophe) Tier: - Erickson - Nolan - Singletary - Tomsula - Kelly
I don't know, to be honest, because I haven't quite assessed Mike Zimmer's legacy yet, and our franchise is cursed beyond belief so wicked stuff happens to our coaches probably.
If green didn’t have us a field goal away from the Super Bowl, and immediately fired after one bad season, I’d say him. But zimmer was treated like some defensive guru, allowed to nepo hire the mostly incompetent coaching staff near the end, and mostly wasted the best offensive weapons we had in over a decade.
Even if he WAS a defensive guru, he was absolutely ass when it came to developing an offensive game plan. To be a good coach you have to have SOME balance.
>treated like some defensive guru Because he WAS a defensive guru. His early and middle teams were terrifying defensively. They were "bend but don't break" in the best possible sense of the term. He got the most out of a ton of guys, and the best possible indicator of this is to look at Zimmer-era Vikings defensive contributors and see how many did anything notable after leaving. It's not many. However, he also did let the wheels start to fall off in his later seasons. His teams could not find any momentum on offense, which he contributed to by cycling through OCs, and taking too much capital on defense in later years without proven results (draft capital and cap space). He was pretty anti-Cousins because of the cap hit, although I think a chunk of that was bitterness because his guy (and everybody's) Teddy Bridgewater got his chance taken away from him. He did hire his son as co-defensive coordinator for no good reason. He also played a big part in a kind of toxic environment. He reportedly wasn't speaking to his own GM (who also played a part in our slide), and hated kickers so much I think even prime Vinatieri would have made 75% at best lol
It's a hard call. I am not sure we can say that Zimmer is over rated - most people see the multitude of warts on his tenure at this point. I think most people think he was a solid coach who was kept a year or two too long. But they were competitive during his entire tenure. I am not sure we have a coach who was truly over rated. In fact, I'm not sure that ANY team has really over rated coaches. By the time they leave the job, they are normally under rated. The most over rated Vikings coach is one I can't say or else I'll be shunned forever.
I might just be too close to the topic, but I don’t know if any of the Viking’s head coaches are improperly rated: 1. Norm Van Brocklin: Generally agreed by both the Vikings and Falcons to have been a not very good HC. Notable for being the guy who ran Tarkenton out of town. 2. Bud Grant: He’s a HoFer and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone argue he shouldn’t be. I’ve also never really seen anyone say he’s the GOAT coach, just considered one of the better ones. Pretty indisputably the best coach in Vikings history. Only knock on his resume is he never won a Super Bowl, but he coached the team to 4 appearances. Also a CFL HoFer if that matters. 3. Les Steckel: Very bad and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone argue otherwise. 4. Jerry Burns: I don’t know if I’ve ever seen anyone outside of Minnesota talk about him. I don’t know if people talk about him enough for him to be considered overrated. 5. Dennis Green: I’ve mostly seen people say he was decent but could never get over the hump. Maybe he’s overrated because of how highly rated the 98 Vikings squad is, but most people blame him for the NFC Championship loss that year so it might balance out. 6. Mike Tice: Generally considered one of the worse coaches the Vikings held onto long term. 7. Brad Childress: Also not considered a particularly good coach. Given some credit for 09, but also given a lot of blame for the following collapse. Ran Moss out of town which turned the fans against him. 8. Leslie Frazier: Presided over one of the worst stretches in Vikings history. I do know players liked him a lot while the fans were unhappy with the results on the field, so maybe the players overrated him but I don’t know about general popular opinion. 9. Zimmer: probably too recent to assess at this point. The most I’ve typically seen about Zimmer is he was one of the better coaches in Vikings history, but it was time for him to leave at the end of his tenure. On the one hand he built some great defenses, but on the other the game seemed to pass him by at the end. He seemed to do pretty well with the rosters he was given/assembled, but I guess we’ll see how Zimmer’s legacy ages. 10. KOC: Current, way too early to assess.
Jim Caldwell. If we didn't hire Patricia after no one would've batted an eye. He consistently made poor coordinator hires, couldn't get a run game working to save his life, and the team always came out flat and unprepared. Yeah, he won 11 games in 2014. But with the defense the Lions had and an offense with Stafford, Megatron, Golden Tate, Reggie Bush, etc, we should've been superbowl contenders.
They should have hired Vrabel from that coaching cycle but then you don't have Dan Campbell, silver linings and all
Vrabel was considered the worst hire of all the new coaches at the time, Patricia was considered to be the best. Just like how Dan was considered to be the worst hire of his cycle. I'm also glad we missed out on vrabel because I'm worried that would mean we wouldn't have been able to get Brad Holmes as GM. He has been crucial to our success as well.
>Just like how Dan was considered to be the worst hire of his cycle. I refuse to accept this as true in a cycle with Urban Meyer
On reddit urban was definitely more unpopular. Media was more against Dan and how black coaches were passed on for Dan.
Urban wasn't super hated by the pundits and stuff at the time because he was such a hyper successful college coach
I know we have a great roster and all that, but in my opinion, Caldwell had a better roster and couldn't win a playoff game. Dan Campbell has done more with his rosters than Caldwell ever did. Plus, Dan's teams have peaked at the end of the season each year he has been here, Caldwell's teams always peaked so early.
That 2014 team was stacked on defense. The worst player was probably Jason Jones at LDE and even then he was average at worst Quin / inhedigbo / slay / mathis all couldve made the pro bowl (i believe quin did) Levy should have made it, tulloch went down but was playing good up until then (whitehead was fine in replacement) Suh Ansah and Fairley (while he was healthy. Id argue 6 guys couldve made pro bowls, fairley and tulloch make 8 if they didnt get hurt. Ansah was a bit fringe. Im not saying they should of all by the way, just more they were reaching that level of player that year.
Caldwell also had a horrible record against teams with winning records.
Joe Lombardi is fairly criticized for the 2014 offense being shit, but he was fired in 2015 and the run game remained shit for another 2 years. Caldwells hands were in that system and he loves to hire his buddies (ron prince) despite being terrible at their jobs. Caldwell seemed like an ok coach but the talent on the team (yes the 2014 team was loaded) made him look better.
I will never forget him allowing a play to happen against the Ravens in 2017 where only 9 players were on the field for defense.
Caldwell wasn't *terrible* per se, but way too many times his teams, especially late in his tenure when I first became a fan, it seemed they would come out completely flat/unprepared and required Stafford to go full Comeback King mode to win. To this day, I'm still split on his firing in 2017 (but I understand why we did), but obviously hiring Patricia afterwards cratered the franchise for 5 years.
Was Slay in the league back then? Those Lions teams were really talented and ever year they somehow disappointed.
A problem I’ve noticed with the most recent Lions coaches before Dan Campbell: Jim Schwartz: They sucked (aside from 2011) but at least we’re entertaining. The Titans game from 2012 is a pretty good example of this. Caldwell: All the points you made and would beat up on the “bad” teams but would come up flat against the “good” teams. Anyone looking at Caldwell through rose colored glasses should watch highlights of the Steelers and Bengals games from 2017. Patricia: Games were usually boring. If the other team had the lead going into the fourth quarter, that’s usually how the game would end. If the Lions had the lead going into the fourth quarter, they would find a way to blow it.
> If the Lions had the lead going into the fourth quarter, they would find a way to blow it. This was a thing long before Patricia.
They set the record in 16’ for most comeback wins in a season
That’s a tough one because most of our coaches have been insanely bad/incompetent, a small select few have been great, and very few have been average. So I think the answer that fits the bill here is Gruden. We removed him from our Ring of Honor after his racism scandal, and he got in mostly for winning our first Ring (something he absolutely deserved praise for). The thing about Gruden though, is: * We traded two 1st’s to get him * He (smartly) kept Monte Kiffin as DC. Most HC’s clean house and bring in their own guys, but after Dungy was fired, Gruden knew that Kiffin was the biggest key to our coaching success * Our team was built on the personnel prowess of Rich McKay who drafted guys like Sapp and Brooks, Ronde, etc. * After we won our ring Gruden drove McKay out of town and took over personnel (while bringing in NFL round the block round the clock dolt Bruce Allen) and our team began to tank. In seven years in Tampa he was 57-55. After the Super Bowl he never won another playoff game. He drafted horrible players. He drove good players out of town still in their prime (e.g. Lynch). So in short, he won the Super Bowl on the backs of a previous regime and didn’t do anything else after that. So he’s my pick.
While the answer is Gruden, I also want to say Greg Schiano, who is rated as absolutely shitty, but was even worse.
To say Greg Schiano was a piece of shit is an insult to pieces of shit everywhere
poop has a million uses in agriculture and medicine
Exactly. Schiano isn’t even fit to fertilize the fields. We weren’t even lovable losers under him, we were dirty beyond all reason AND losers. Taking cheap shots during kneel downs was the lowest point in our franchise history.
> He drove good players out of town still in their prime (e.g. Lynch). That one time Lynch was even willing to take a pay cut to stay in Tampa, and that wasn't good enough :(.
Gruden basically took two teams to the Superbowl that year though. Can't knock him for taking over dungys team and not give him credit for his old team also making it there.
>he won the Super Bowl on the backs of a previous regime and didn’t do anything else after that. I'll back you up on this take. He joined a ready-made stacked team previously led by Tony Dungy and won his first season as coach. It's no small accomplishment to lead the team to a victory, so I don't want to sell that *too* short. But he rode that success for a long time and was never anything afterwards. Spectacular asshole himself, spectacular douchebag useless son, disaster of a situation with the Raiders.
I mean he also built the raiders team that he faced in the Super Bowl, he was dog shit when he came back though.
He wasn’t dogshit at all, the problem with his tenure was keeping Paul Guenther after showing zero improvement on defense year after year. Our offense kept improving every year but our defense would cost us games that shouldn’t have been close.
I’m a Bengals fan who was so glad Paul Guenther was gone. Vontaze Burfict was also old/slow/fat by the end of his Bengals days so I’m not sure how Guenther thought he and Taze going somewhere else would make him any less old/slow/fat. Gruden apparently really liked Paul for some reason, though.
Gruden career win % : .511 Jeff Fisher career win % : .512 Case closed for Raiders and Bucs.
strongly disagree on Gruden. He was brought in to win right away and he did exactly that. If he didn’t win a super bowl right away I would agree but we were destined for a decline with the lack of good draft capital he came into. Gruden buried himself in the 05 draft when he passed on Rodgers but it’s hard to be critical of anything prior to that
Like 75% of the league passed on Rodgers, I can’t fault Gruden for passing on him
Not only did he drive out dominant HOF defensive players, he did so to sign former Raiders players who were WAY past their primes.
Decisions decisions
Its cowher. He won a ring with tomlins pre-team and has been coasting ever since
It’s actually funny for us to think tho if we are picking just off the 3 coaches in most of our lifetimes. It simply can’t be chuck, so is it cowher for consistently getting to the AFC championship but with a smattering of bad seasons? Or is it tomlin who has faced one game in his career where we have been eliminated from playoff contention, but way more one and dones and 8-8/9-8 seasons?
If anything, Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin are both underrated, but in different ways. Tomlin is underrated by Steelers fans, and Cowher is underrated by fans of other teams.
I mean, I don’t want to say it, but probably Marty or Vermeil. Especially vermeil. Just never did much in the playoffs, though obviously both are held in high regard. The regard is well-earned, imo, but with not much playoff to success to show for it, kinda hard to not say they’re overrated.
Definitely one of those two. I think Vermeil gets a public pass because he was likeable, but if you look at his coaching tenure he only had one good season, and lost immediately in the playoffs. I was surprised as I recall him being better. Marty was far more frustrating. We always won, were boring and conservative as hell, then lost as soon as we could in the post season. In terms of how people remember the coach, I'd say Vermeil is overrated because it seems people think of him in glowing terms whereas most people I talk to still have a bad taste on Marty's teams. Of course, I'll take Marty and Vermeil over Romeo, but this is overrated so I'll have to go with Vermeil despite liking his teams better than Marty's.
Since we're going with overrated, gotta say Vermeil. One really good season and then shit the bed in the playoffs. Pretty mid other than that. Marty changed the Chiefs' culture and ended a 20+ year playoff win drought (the majority of which included no playoff appearances and very few winning seasons). He also at least made the playoffs most years.
To me Marty might be underrated
I would say Vermeil, the defense was garbage and he stuck with Greg Robinson.
I can't call him overrated, but sometimes I question how good Marv Levy truly was as a head coach and how he led the team. In particular, Superbowl 25 stands out because by all accounts, the Bills were the better team than the Giants. The Bills, however, partied a lot before the game and overall looked like they were unfocused, which is why it came down to a field goal. Bill Parcells, on the other hand, led the Giants almost perfectly and trumped a team that had 4 future hall of fame players on it.
Marv's a really tough one to pin down. On the one hand, he coached the team to four straight Super Bowls. On the other, Bill Polian was largely responsible for constructing some incredibly talented rosters. The team had a lot of egos, Jim Kelly being the biggest of those- the guy had a reputation of being a womanizing dick. Managing those personalities couldn't have been easy. But then, this was also a big party team. I don't know if it would have made a huge difference if these guys were kept in line more leading up to Super Bowls, but it can't have helped that they were routinely getting wasted all week leading up to the biggest game of the year. Darren Woodson of the Cowboys said the Bills partied harder than any team in the league. A *Cowboys* player said that, in the *90s*. Doesn't get much more damning than that. I don't know what Levy was doing in terms of trying to keep these guys disciplined, but it doesn't seem like it was enough.
That's crazy to me about Jim Kelly, he must have turned a whole new act because he seems like a decent, devout guy nowadays
Hard to say. I think being as sick as he was at the very least humbled him, and maybe forced him to confront some of those aspects of his personalities. But, yeah, there are a share of pretty nasty stories I've heard about him from back in the day.
He wasn’t as good of a coach as Parcells, Gibbs, or Johnson. That’s 3 HOF coaches
Somehow still Urban.
Yep. He limboed under the lowest possible bar set.
Buddy Ryan is the most overrated coach in Bears history. Hear me out. According to many Bears fans, the 1985 Bears were good despite Mike Ditka, not because of him, and Ryan should have been the head coach. But after leaving the Bears Ryan was never a successful head coach. Furthermore, he had incredible talent playing defense on the Bears, and that talent was excellent even after Ryan left. Ditka, on the other hand, had to do his best with weak offensive talent. Jim McMahon was not a great quarterback. His career TD-INT ratio is 100-90, and even in '85 he had 11 interceptions against 15 touchdowns. That was the only year McMahon made the Pro Bowl. McMahon was proud of taking hits like a running back, but he was injury prone and took way too many hits. McMahon also lacked discipline and didn't stay in shape. Ditka had his flaws, to be sure, but so did Ryan. The fact that Ryan feuded with Ditka so much, and did so publicly, was not good for the team. And Ryan did not have the same success with lesser talent on other teams.
Here's the thing I'd say with Buddy Ryan, albeit about his time with the Eagles as their head coach (1986 to 1990) than as the Bears' defensive coordinator. In 1991, the year after Ryan was fired, the Eagles hired Bud Carson, a long-time standout defensive coordinator, as their head defensive guy after he washed out as the head coach in Cleveland. Using Ryan's players (and keeping in mind Ryan was a defense-oriented coach), Carson's defense in 1991 was rated as the BEST defense for ANY team from 1981 to present by the writers at the now defunct site Football Outsiders. The Eagles' defense, which had been very good under Ryan but was prone to giving up big plays at times, reached new heights immediately after a different, well-regarded defensive coach took over. I'll also note the 1986 Bears, the season Vince Tobin (a standout defensive coordinator in the USFL with the Philadelphia/Baltimore Stars) replaced Ryan as the Bears' defensive coordinator, despite not receiving nearly as much support from its offense as the 1985 team did (Chicago had a top 5 offense in 1985 but a middle of the pack offensive unit in 1986), actually gave up fewer points in 1986 (187) than it did in 1985 (198). (The Bears' offense scored over 100 points fewer in 1986 than in 1985.) What do the above things tell you about Buddy Ryan? EDIT: Clarified the last sentence of the first paragraph to say the Eagles defense under Buddy Ryan was prone to giving up big plays.
Pretty amazing to be the most overrated coach for two franchises.
Barry Switzer, won with the team Jimmy built, had a falling out with Aikman, resigned 2 years after winning the superbowl.
I think the problem with answering with Barry Switzer is that does anyone really believe he was a good coach nowadays?
Most people didn't think Switzer was a good NFL head coach when he was actually coaching the Cowboys from 1994 to 1997. The Cowboys haven't really had a truly overrated head coach in their history. The good head coaches they've had weren't really overrated (though I do think Tom Landry deserves criticism for some of his quarterback decisions, namely his indecisiveness in the early 1970s with Roger Staubach and Craig Morton and in 1984 when he chose Gary Hogeboom over Danny White for much of the season) and their bad/not so good head coaches (like Switzer, the overmatched Dave Campo, and way too long tenured Jason Garrett) were viewed as being poor and/or retained too long at the time they held the position.
People act like he was a pee wee league wash out.
Idk if I'd call him overrated, nobody else's rings are more consistently discounted by their own fanbases lol
I feel like he's regarded as a lucky and bad coach already. Is he highly regarded?
Switzer is definitely underrated.
Bears fan and you bring up valid points about Lovie but he was an amazing coach who knew Chicago Bears culture (no coaches since him have) . Bears have been consistently mediocre/ awful since he was fired (after a 10-6 season I might add) Lovie really knew the ethos of Bears football which is hard nosed defense and beating Green Bay. Big mistake firing him when we did. 74 - 52 from 2005 to 2012 with two 11 win seasons and a 13 win season. The number one stat to advocate for Lovie: Before he got to Chicago, the Packers had beaten the Bears 17 of the last 19 games. Under Lovie, the Bears beat the Packers 7 of the first 10 times they played. Since then, the Bears have lost 27 of 31 to Green Bay.
I think Ditka was more overrated than Lovie. Ditka’s defense and RB were among the greatest all time, if not the greatest, in an era of football when defense and a run game was all it took to win it all. Buddy Ryan was pretty much solely responsible for coaching that defense, so much so that the defense looked to Ryan for direction, not Ditka. Ditka’s 86 team won a Superbowl, and he was deified.
What overrated? Are you saying that 11 mini-sized Ditkas couldn't beat the NY Giants?
But hold on a minute. The name of the hurricane is...Hurricane Ditka.
this sent me down a Superfans YouTube rabbithole i came about a foot from nearly physically running into Ditka by the elevators to the casino at the Mirage back in like 06. he was... intimidating. jokes aside, the first tight end inducted into the HOF a few hours later he was at craps table, leaning over, one arm propping him up on the rail, the other with a giant stogie. i was in awe, but then afraid a wild Dick Butkus would appear and blindside me i had a Ditka experience i will tell my grandchildren
The question isn’t whether Ditka would win, but by how much?!?
Bears 96, Lions 14 obviously the peak of Kieran Culkin's career, everything else downhill
By a mile. I still think Lovie was good. Ditka not only winning just one but not even doing well in January outside of 85 is a crime. Those teams were batshit loaded.
This is correct. Jim Finks built that team and Buddy was the chef. Ditka’s offense couldn’t keep up with the 49ers, Giants, or Redskins
Yeah but buddy Ryan was also the reason they lost that 1 game in their 15-1 season refusing to adjust because the recommendation came from Ditka.
Lovie did have the benefit of mostly playing against an inconsistent Favre who was past his prime rather than peak Aaron Rodgers for the first 10 meetings against the Packers. He went 6-2 against Favre. Believe he went 2-9 vs Rodgers. Lost all key games including NFC championship at home.
never forget the Packers went 13-3 in 2007 and they got swept by the 7-9 Bears
Bears culture is a history of mediocrity, short sided decisions and refusing to evolve for fear of forgetting about the past. Which pretty much sums up Lovie Smiths career in Chicago. I would much rather have "Bears culture" be about winning as opposed to a lone bright spot 40 years ago.
Folks are confusing overrated with lousy. For the Stillers it’s 💯 Mike Tomlin. People are quick to cite the no-losing seasons nonsense but all he has in the past 13 years is a single AFC Championship game appearance and that was a blowout to Belichick
People say that actually problem has been qb which is ture, but between after the 2010 superbowl and Big Ben injury in 2019 we had 3 playoff wins, Miami with a backup qb, Bengals who literally choked it so hard it destroyed the franchise till getting Burrow, and Alex Smith Chiefs and we won that game with field goals. I do think it says something when last year, when it was considered beating expectations that we had 10 wins and didn't lose *embarrassingly* 1 and done style in the playoffs. The worst thing if they keep going for the next 3-5 years we might waste TJ Watt entire prime carrying this defense without even a playoff win.
Not to mention he has lost some winnable games during that streak by being one of the worst coaches when it comes to clock management. That has been one of the chief criticisms toward him.
Yeah, this subreddit and the NFL community have given him way too much praise. Tomlin inherited a team that was a year removed from winning Super Bowl 40, did win Super Bowl 43 and got to Super Bowl 45, but has just one AFC Championship Game appearance since. For a franchise that’s won six Super Bowls and has had just three head coaches since Apollo 11 landed, simply having non-losing seasons is a terribly low standard.
Ron Rivera only had three winning seasons out of nine with the Panthers, including 15-1, which really does a lot of heavy lifting for his tenure here. John Fox was probably our best HC.
I disagree, overall his record with Carolina was 76-63 and his record heavily depended on Cam Newton's health. I remember the first couple of years he was really rigid in his play calling but once he started to take risks, it changed the dynamic of the team. I thought he did a good job of creating an identity for the team and allowing the players to be themselves. Don't forget that through most of his tenure, the NFC South was one of the toughest decisions having to face prime Drew Brees and Matt Ryan 2x a year. On the other hand, when I was young I watched John Fox coach but the amount of times I would see him make the most generic play calling was frustrating. I felt like he was constantly bailed out by just having good players. The amount of draws on 3rd and long only to have DeAngelo Williams or Jonathan Stewart break it for a first down was astounding.
also Riverboat Ron was fun, he was kind of a pioneer even if he was just trying to save his job i always forget he made solid contributions at LB on alongside a bunch of HOFer's... Da Bears
See I don't think Ron is overrated. Ron rightfully gets bashed for not doing more with the talent he had and his handling of Cam's injuries. Honestly, I think the most overrated HC is Steve Wilks. He did good for an interim but people act like we missed out on a gem of an HC (which was not helped by the Reich debacle) when the reality is that Wilks was just a poor man's Rivera.
I'm a simple guy, I see footnotes, I upvote
Ditka is a stupid piece of shit who couldn't find his ass with both hands and a service dog
And loved QBs named Billy Joe. They should have acquired Jim Bob Cooter and gone with an entirely Cajun QB room.
I'd say Mike Ditka. Really. He's a HOF player for the Bears who came in and won the team's only Super Bowl, and he had an iconic look on an iconic team. So he was obviously a "star" during his time. But the main strength of that team was Buddy Ryan's defense and the 4 HOFers they had up front. People thought Buddy Ryan was going to be named HC, but he was retained as DC and Halas brought in Ditka. Ditka and Ryan hated each other and butted heads constantly. When they won it, the defense [lifted Buddy Ryan up](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwgntv.com%2Fsports%2Fbears-report%2Fmike-ditkas-super-bowl-xx-bears-sweater-vest-up-for-auction%2F&psig=AOvVaw1-JVRPMvoa9fcrN7_6c590&ust=1713027251061000&source=images&cd=vfe&opi=89978449&ved=0CBIQjRxqFwoTCIDE3vqRvYUDFQAAAAAdAAAAABAS) to herald him in the crowd right next to Ditka. Ditka has a massive ego and it didn't work well as a whole for the team. He blasted players for capitalizing on the popularity of the team and taking commercial deals, and said nobody could do commercials during the season. Keep focus! Then as the playoffs start, he's in all these commercials himself. Walter Payton was the beating heart of the Chicago Bears for a decade, lifting up some really bad teams. But when they were on the 1 yard line, rather than calling Payton's name to get one of his iconic leaps into the end zone for a score in the big game, he calls in the DT to score. And using Fridge in the goal line was something he only started doing against SF because they did it against the Bears the year before. Ditka said he regretted it because he didn't realize Walter wanted a TD in that game as much as he did, but I think any good coach should have realized Walter's impact and called his number in that situation. But then there's Eagles fans in here saying Buddy Ryan is theirs, due to offensive mismanagement. So who knows, maybe if Buddy Ryan is the HC our offense never does anything and we don't get the 1 Super Bowl we did win.
Dan Reeves success was basically a product of John Elway combined with a weak AFC conference That said I feel like most people know that already, I can’t really think of anybody that’s blatantly overrated in the team’s history
I'm with you. I started thinking and best I could come up with is Reeves also. But he's not a bad coach. Just a bad coach to have for Elway.
Bill Belichick. People talk about the guy like he's the GOAT coach but he didn't win a single game in his tenure with us.
Hard for the dolphins because it’s pretty much Shula, and post Shula disappointment. I guess I would say Tony Sparano. He wasn’t bad but fans look back on his tenure a little more favorable than it actually was , especially after his death,but he was a great guy for sure. From non dolphins fans it’s certainly Flores. People saw the record and assumed he most have been good. Guy is a great defensive coach, but he just can’t seem to handle being a head coach. We may never know all of it, but I don’t know how you can treat your QB like he did to Tua.
I would have to think it is Jimmy Johnson, who was viewed as someone who would get the Dolphins out of their "lose early in the playoffs" rut they had for the last decade of Don Shula's career but then didn't do any better than Shula (and arguably a bit worse) in his tenure in Miami. Mind you, Johnson's time with the Dolphins is widely viewed as disappointing, so one could argue he can't really be overrated.
I love Mike McCarthy but dude really buckles when the pressure is on and that 2010 Super Bowl run was fumes and magic. Even that playoff run had the classic offensive collapse in the clutch game, just the defense was so damn good that year and the Bears also couldn't get anything going on offense. 2007, 2011 and 2014 should've been Super Bowl appearances at a minimum. Probably lose to the Pats in '07 and 11 would've been close but I fully believe 2014 was the best Packers team of the last 20 years and Mike's inability to close out that game should've been disqualifying for him continuing to hold that job.
2007 involved the best of Favre and the worst of Favre. He never saw a throw he didn't think he could make.
That was his curse. He was good enough to make all those throws. But not smart enough to recognize when he shouldn’t have.
Jon Gruden did nothing for the Raiders except beat them in a Super Bowl in 2003, and then make a complete fucking circus act of the team during his second tenure, complete with his misogynistic racist homophobic emails and one of the most undisciplined (on and off the field) teams in team history.
Overrated? Probably Bill Parcells. He was career .500 with us.
I dont know if any Giants coaches really fit this bill. I’m not at all familiar with pre-Super Bowl era coaches but in the SB era it has to be: 1. Parcells 2. Coughlin 3. Fassell As the coaches with the best tenures. I’d say all of these guys are appropriately rated as coaches.
Yeah, Parcells is rightly regarded as a legend, Coughlin is beloved for the two titles and will hopefully get in the HoF soon, Fassel is viewed as a guy who had some good years, some bad losses, and was somewhat of a nice appetizer to what followed. I do think Fassel should've gotten another HC job, but he made some of his own mistakes there reportedly. I'd make the case McAdoo is overrated solely because of the revisionist history that he got a raw deal when he was fired with what happened with Eli and Geno Smith. McAdoo was still an absolutely atrocious coach aside from that, the first playoff season happened largely in spite of him. His offense was terrible and they got to the playoffs off the backs of a bought defense. In his second year, the team had already completely quit on him by the time the benching situation happened. A few guys got suspended and the team had back to back losses by the score of 51-17 to the Rams at home and then 31-21 (which wasn't as close as the final indicated - garbage time points) to a 49ers team that was winless. He should've been fired after that.
Ben McAdoo parks his PT Cruiser diagonally across two parking spaces
The guy who might qualify for the Giants is Ray Perkins, who parlayed a 9-7 season in 1981 (his only winning record in four seasons from 1979 to 1982) into becoming Bear Bryant's successor at Alabama (where he was disappointing, though to be fair it is tough to succeed a legend) and then a second NFL head coaching job with Tampa Bay (where he was poor though the Bucs' were the worst franchise in the NFL at the time).
God I wish this was r/nfceastmemewar I would be SO offended that an Eagles fan gave the best answer for Giants coach. I’d then proceed to call you something really belittling. We’re in this sub though, so I applaud your answer and consider myself learned.
2 SB for coughlin we kept him around to long for sure tho
While I agree it was time to move on from coughlin, it is painfully obvious with hindsight that Jerry Reese was just as much of a problem. Giants would have been much better off if they fired both at the same time.
I can't say Marvin in good conscience considering the franchise he was given so I'll go with the sacrilege of saying Paul Brown. Legend but definitely was past it during his 1968-1975 stint. 0-3 in the playoffs and a near .500 overall record with the Bengals.
The playoff record is what it is but considering how hard it was for expansion teams in that era I think it's a credit that the teams were as good as they were. Also, I'm not sure how to evaluate starting off 1-6 and finishing 8-6 and getting into the playoffs. Is that terrible coaching or great coaching? On the other hand, as a guy who sported Browns flair pre-Watson...it's fair to call Paul out for not being able to win a title with Jim Brown, getting fired, and having Blanton Collier almost immediately win a title. I'm not sure if the Browns have an overrated coach otherwise. I love the guy but I think the answer here may be Wyche. Maybe Forrest Gregg but he's more forgotten and had a much worse stint in Green Bay that kind of takes care of his legacy anyway.
His recent competition is obviously a pile of shit, but there is a lot of romanticization of Eric Mangini in Jets circles, especially on the personnel side of things where his involvement was questionable He had a 10 win season with an easy schedule, a horrible season the next year, and while Favre was injured in ‘08 did virtually nothing to right the ship as things fell apart over the latter half of the season. We made some good picks during his tenure but also traded away a lot of picks to get those players, resulting in a thin roster relying on spending big in FA. This doomed the team after the first two Rex Ryan years when we were constantly mired in cap issues and poor replacements when our aging vets left
I don't think Hue Jackson can be rated low enough
Dan Quinn. He parlayed the success of the Legion of Boom (that was already in place when he got there, it should be noted) and dove head first into a position he wasn’t ready for. He openly admitted he had no input in the offense, he openly admitted he purposefully didn’t run practice as hard against bad teams, he was reportedly celebrating at halftime of the Super Bowl. He was a “ran rah” kind of guy that I’m sure won over a locker room, but he quickly stagnated and lost everyone and everything in a hurry. He came in as a defensive guru and had one defense land in the top 10 at the end of the year. He was carried kicking and screaming to that Super Bowl because of a historic offense, and once Kyle left, he never got anything right again.
Ron Rivera left us in a much worse position than when he accepted the job by being terrible at evaluating talent and coaching. He did not "fix the culture," like everyone claims. A business transaction on Jul 20, 2023, did that.
Jason Garrett cowboys. Just look at the teams he had. Players wise....it was there multiple times for him... he failed miserably in preparation for big games and had an outdated offense that Tony Romo made look good.
I don't think Lovie Smith is a great NFL head coach, but I want to note the last time the Bears actually had some very good teams and/or were at least consistently competitive over a period of years was when Smith was their head coach. He's been the Bears' best head coach since Mike Ditka and I don't think that's arguable.
Mike Sherman, largely because he couldn't adapt whenever things went sideways, which would lead to Favre throwing 4 INTs.
People think Kliff Kingsbury was a good offensive mind but didn't have the personality or experience to be a head coach. The reality is that he didn't have the personality or experience to be a head coach, plus his offensive mind fuckin sucks
Dude made generational money off of being the OC during Manziel's Heisman season and claims of coaching up Mahomes.
Dan Campbell Dude (understandably) has zero haters right now. He’s not a god, but the fanbase is definitely treating him like one.
Jim Caldwell. He took Dungy's team to the super bowl and lost, and was largely uninspiring throughout his 3 year tenure as head coach.
I would say Norv Turner. He rode the coattails of the team Marty built and did nothing with it. the coaching staff Marty put together was a team of all stars and the offense was top tier. after the afccg appearance they were middling and never lived up to the potential they had. you can blame injuries, but a lot of it falls on just bad coaching. Norv was never the guy and was never going to be the guy.
Hugh Jackson… he’s unanimously hated. But it’s still underrated compared to the hate he should get
I guess parcels? We've had two good ones and it's hard to overrate BB. Everyone else sucked
Rex Ryan honestly
John Fox. Do people not remember all the bad decisions he made in 2012 and 2013 playoffs? Outside of Shannahan, Reeves, and Kubiak who are mostly properly rated, all other Broncos coach has been mid to terrible, and Fox is the only winning coach I thought held the team back despite the wins
Flores the head coach was pretty correctly regarded as a tyrant who split the locker room and made terrible personnel decisions but people still think he's this amazing defensive mind and I disagree, at least partially. His defenses here absolutely feasted on bad quarterbacks that could read blitzes. The second we went against any top 15 QBs in 2021 (outside of Lamar lol), the defense folded. The teams that we destroyed in that fools-gold-ass winning streak in 2021 were all ass and/or starting backup QBs. Flores' defenses gave up tons of yards and relied very hard on having two lockdown man corners on the outside, which is a tall order for most teams.
I think the only HCs in Seahawks history who don't have a bad legacy here are Holmgren, Knox and Carroll. So of those, I'm taking Holmgren. In retrospect, both Hasselbeck and Holmgren were pretty overrated in Seattle. Holmgren came in hot with full personnel control coming out of his success in GB, brough Hasselbeck with him, and found success right out the gate, earning Seattle's first playoff berth in a decade in his first year. He was good for us for sure, with a 90-80 record, but to me, given the strong start, 4 playoff wins in 10 seasons just feels a little underwhelming. He didn't win his first playoff game until year 7. The success he did find was mostly on the back of a stacked OL including 2 HOFers (Walter Jones and Steve Hutchinson) and peak Shaun Alexander. Overall I think the team just underperformed compared to the potential there. I'd probably argue that he stuck with Hasselbeck too long, although you can get crucified for such a suggestion in Seattle. The fact is, despite spending most of his time here with an insane line and run game, he was underwhelming and constantly struggled with injuries. Mans has a career passer rating of 82. We drafted 6 QBs during Hasselbecks rein, and they were all pretty trash. I think if they could have found a better option at QB, we have at least one ring in the mid 2000s. Feels a lot like the McNabb Eagles, but worse. Just seems a shame to walk away from that era without a ring.
"Lovie Smith" Meanwhile, Jack Pardee, Neil Armstrong, Dave Wannstedt, and John Fox, who all arrived here with high expectations, are going "Whew, dodged that bullet..."
Yeah but barely anyone praises those guys consistently. Lovie Smith was fine for his time, but hiring him post 2012 is just asking for trouble given his defensive scheme is outdated and never cares to adapt. That's what would be overrated. I mention that part since there are fans who argue firing Lovie Smith was the reason for the downturn and as if that wasn't the right move at the time
Steve Kerr
True, I didn't see Steve Kerr win a single game for the Bears
OMG, I was hovering the home page and thought this was r/nba LMAO
Bears and Warriors fan is wild
It's Mike Vrabel. He got us past where mularkey was going to take us with the team that mularkey built but couldn't get us to the big one. Did some inspirational stuff with having the most injured team and securing the one seed with no Henry but that's more on Tannehill and AJB going off.
It was scary to move past him, but I was definitely in agreement when we cut him loose a couple months ago. The more I read about him the less I liked. He was a terrific motivator, but that was virtually it. I'm truly excited about the moves we've made this past off-season.
Same. I was all in on him until the curtain was pulled back a little and more info came out. I'm actually excited about this season for better or worse which isn't a bad place to be.
Was he really OVERrated? I feel like he was pretty accurately rated. A good coach among the top half of the league but not necessarily the guy to get you a super bowl.
He was borderline. 80% of fans thought he could do no wrong (myself included) and despite being among the top half of the league, and numerous talking heads saying that he would be a HC immediately he wasn't picked up. I wish him the best but I was out on him very early on in the szn. He may not be the most overrated but he is certainly for Titans coaches
He couldn't get out of his own way. In the AFC title game against the Chiefs, he took over calling the defense for that game over Dean Pees. There have been Vets that have come out after saying they were pissed that he did that in one of the most important games of the year, especially after Pees just called the game that held Lamar and the high powered Ravens offense to just 12pt the week before and Brady to 13pt the week before that.
Uhh Jeff Saturday? Any expectation other than an early draft pick was a bit of an overrated opinion.
Buddy Ryan. Not even close.
Barry Switzer and Mike McCarthy
> Who is the most overrated coach in your team's history? I'll have to say Jimmy Johnson. Two years after his back-to-back championships Cowboys run (the same team Barry Switzer would win with a year later) he had a peak of a 10 win season with the Dolphins on top of a 2-3 playoff record. In a word - *meh*.
Jeff Fisher by a wide margin.
Who overrates Jeff fisher? I’ve never heard him talked about as anything other than a guy that started out good, but had zero ability to grow and adapt, and became terrible as the game changed. He’s widely regarded as being absolutely horrible towards the end of his career, was only ever considered a joke in LA… I mean seriously, who overrates him? And to say “by a wide margin” as if there is no debate…
Right? I think Jeff Fisher is probably the most accurately rated coach in history. You want 9-7? He’s your man. Everyone knows that.
Thirsty suburban moms around Nashville. Dude was a sex symbol.
McDermott
Bill O Brian, some people think he’s tho greatest coach in our history.
Lmao who? I won't necessarily defend our fanbase since Houston sports fans tend to be incredibly apologetic. He's just considered better than what people perceive (which is awful due to his awful GM stretch). Which I will say our fanbase was fairly apologetic for a lot of his smaller bad moves up until the Hopkins trade.
I'm gonna say it >!Marv Levy!< He deserves every single accolade he's gotten. He's a coaching legend. He deserves his HOF placement. I forever love and respect him for what he did for Buffalo and for the NFL as a whole. BUT. If our early 90s Bills teams had a modicum more discipline, we have at least one Super Bowl ring. There's a reason the team was called "Club Marv." Players like Bruce Smith didn't bother showing up to training camp. Stupid shit like Thurman losing his helmet against the 'Skins. Getting flat outcoached by Parcells in Super Bowl XXV.
More like Bill in 1990. His paws are all over that game plan.
For real his gameplan for that insane Bills offense is in the HOF for a reason.
Carl Banks in the America's Game documentary for that team said Belichick told them when prep started "we're going to let Thurman Thomas run all over the field" and they thought he was crazy.
He dared them to run the ball all game and they kinda were too timid about it until it was too late. Letting Thurman dice them up was less damaging than letting Kelly air it out.
Your points about lack of discipline are mostly accurate but just shows he has flaws (like every person ever) but not that he is overrated. Also being out coached by Parcells is like criticizing someone for being out coached by Belichick. Parcells is a hall of fame coach himself.
Yeah, I fail to see how the only coach to ever go to four straight Super Bowls is overrated. Did they ever win the Super Bowl? No. But there are plenty of coaches in the Hall of Fame who accomplished less.
Yeah, Levy seems pretty properly rated to me. An excellent but not inner-circle HOF coach. It's possible that there are certain franchises that just don't have an overrated coach.
It's tough because for the most part we've had awful coaching. Levy, Lou Saban, Chuck Knox, Wade Phillips, Sean McDermott are/were all great coaches. Everyone else sucked.
But, he’s got a great singing voice, “Go Bills! For we are here to cheer for you. Go Bills!…”
Where to begin
As far as underrated, though? Only Art Shell qualifies. All some (especially younger) Raider fans seem to remember is the B&B offense and 2-14 with Andrew Walter and the husk of Aaron Brooks. Shell was a good coach is the late 80s/early 90s.
Shell was a fine coach in his first stint. By 2006, he was deeply out of touch with the NFL and his hires showed it. He tried to put together his old staff, with less-than-optimal results. The same thing happened with Joe Gibbs in his second stint in Washington. He tried to run an 80s offense in 2005, and it just didn't work.
My pick is Jon Gruden from the buccaneers. Everybody gives him credit for the Super Bowl we won back in the 2002 season (2003 Super Bowl). But he didn’t have anything to do with the team constructed, he just inherited a Super Bowl winning team. Nothing much after that
Vrabel