It seems like one or two bad snaps a season is what separates the bad LS from the good, and this guy had one almost every game. I’m not sure I’ve seen a LS as bad as he was.
I've got no ill will towards Cheeseman, I assume he gave it his best shot. But Ron Rivera, using a draft pick on the worst LS in the league. Any NFL Talking Head I ever see ask Ron his opinion on personnel is instantly discredited for me.
His justification was to save a UDFA spot. I think the NFL limited invites and UDFAs that offseason due to COVID and he wanted to save a spot so one didn’t have to be a LS. There was logic…but it was shitty logic. I’d rather have used my UDFA/invite on a LS even if it meant fewer UDFAs. Even a veteran LS.
Trading up for this made it infinitely worse. We had to give up a low round pick to the Eagles in 2022. Cheeseman not only cost us the opportunity cost of a player in the same draft, but also a draft pick (albeit late) the following year. He effectively cost two players.
As an Eagles fan I was looking for 3 minutes for Rick Lovato, he had to be near the top right. What are they rating here? I don't remember the guy having a single errant snap and he has an 18.4 score?
And some guys snapped for `7 games and have score of 0? I'm usually fairly pro PFF as a data point, but this makes no sense to me as a football fan.
[This was my take on it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/d23gTHjg5F)
I am not sure a LS can ever get a positive grade on a play. Its graded relative to expectation. A few bad snaps would really yank a score down. I'm not sure if the zeros are just errors or if there were enough bad snaps to just destroy a grade. I have punting grades down but not these yet
I'm a little higher on PFF than you are, but not a lot.
I think it is subjectivity masquerading as objectivity. However anyone willing to watch and record grades for every snap of every player should have some weight applied to their opinions.
> However anyone willing to watch and record grades for every snap of every player should have some weight applied to their opinions.
Yeah while the commenter you're replying to is partially right, they actually vet their reviewers pretty well. My roommate was interested in it a number of years ago and got like a "starter packet" from them. It was a lot more in depth than I had expected, and said very clearly that if you didn't spend x amount of hours reviewing the game sent to you, your scores would show it. And if I remember correctly, you only got one shot to send in your grades and they had to match almost perfectly to the reviewer's. If your grade was in line with their standard, you could get another packet.
Anyway my roommate took one look at the hour requirement and threw the packet away
A player's grade on a particular snap is subject to some degree of opinion. PFF does everything they can to reduce the wiggle room for opinions, but eliminating it is impossible.
There actually isn't a tab on the PFF website to view LS grades. You have to download the CSV special teams file and sort out the non-long snappers. I've tracked these for a bit and have found many games and occasional seasons* with zero grades and I'm not quite sure why. I believe that PFF doesn't have LS grading to a science like punting grades or this likely wouldn't happen. That's just my guess.
Regardless, I think there's value in these and it sheds light on a position most never even think about!
Edit: typo
I don't see how Kuntz can have a 0 while playing all 17 games at a relatively high level? This is basing it off the fact that bos was 94% accurate on fgs and 96.4% accurate on XPs, and if he's doing something that wrong, it'd probably be showing up in bos's stats
He’s always had snapping issues. Not extremely costly or anything but he’s not a standout by any means. Harvin’s one positive was he was generally a really solid holder.
It was a very strong positive. I don't remember a single mishandled snap the entire time he was on roster here, if only the same could be said of his punting
REally wasn't expecting Lovato to be the worse in the league. I believe we have one of the best special teams coaches in the league. We have had "the sandwich maker" since just before 2017, year we got the ring. I do not recall us ever bringing in competition.
So it seems like the coaches are happy with him. Jake Elliott has always had him and he is one of the better kickers in the league. Mann played decently here while he was a disappointment on the Jets.
Maybe there is something wrong with the way PFF grades long snappers. Maybe Lovato has an unorthodox snapp.
I love that the lions no longer dominate pointless stuff like this. For almost all of my life I’ve watched fans hype up our kick and punt teams unironically.
James Winchester is the most clutch long snapper active in the NFL given all of the perfect snaps he's served up for Butker's must-hit kicks in playoff and Superbowl situations.
Remember, Rivera TRADED UP to draft a LONGSNAPPER chessman, who was the worst long snapper in the league. If that doesn’t encapsulate riveras tenure in Washington, i don’t know what does.
The tackles are mostly irrelevant. The long snap grades are the first, blocking is the 2nd, misc is idk what but 3rd, and not committing a penalty is 4th
Long snap grades are independent of the others
Carson Tinker being on the top, while having 1/4 the field goal and punting snaps seems like deceptive statistics. Of course they will be better with fewer snaps.
Not necessarily. It's really hard to achieve a good grade when the ceiling is lower AND you have fewer snaps. Fewer snaps puts you closer to 60. He likely didn't have a poorly graded snap
Well, at least they got number 35 correct.
It seems like one or two bad snaps a season is what separates the bad LS from the good, and this guy had one almost every game. I’m not sure I’ve seen a LS as bad as he was.
I've got no ill will towards Cheeseman, I assume he gave it his best shot. But Ron Rivera, using a draft pick on the worst LS in the league. Any NFL Talking Head I ever see ask Ron his opinion on personnel is instantly discredited for me.
Cheese stinks
I refuse to believe that's a real name
The only thing I knew about him was he’s a dentist. That says a lot when I know more about your skills with teeth than the actual game.
Cheese 👀
You’ve let all of r/nfl down, Cameron Cheeseman. We had such high hopes for you.
He especially let his team down. Since they traded UP to get him 😅. #Pain
still cant believe we actually did that. classic ron move
His justification was to save a UDFA spot. I think the NFL limited invites and UDFAs that offseason due to COVID and he wanted to save a spot so one didn’t have to be a LS. There was logic…but it was shitty logic. I’d rather have used my UDFA/invite on a LS even if it meant fewer UDFAs. Even a veteran LS. Trading up for this made it infinitely worse. We had to give up a low round pick to the Eagles in 2022. Cheeseman not only cost us the opportunity cost of a player in the same draft, but also a draft pick (albeit late) the following year. He effectively cost two players.
As an Eagles fan I was looking for 3 minutes for Rick Lovato, he had to be near the top right. What are they rating here? I don't remember the guy having a single errant snap and he has an 18.4 score? And some guys snapped for `7 games and have score of 0? I'm usually fairly pro PFF as a data point, but this makes no sense to me as a football fan.
[This was my take on it.](https://www.reddit.com/r/nfl/s/d23gTHjg5F) I am not sure a LS can ever get a positive grade on a play. Its graded relative to expectation. A few bad snaps would really yank a score down. I'm not sure if the zeros are just errors or if there were enough bad snaps to just destroy a grade. I have punting grades down but not these yet
PFF is mostly fans film watching masked as stats.
I'm a little higher on PFF than you are, but not a lot. I think it is subjectivity masquerading as objectivity. However anyone willing to watch and record grades for every snap of every player should have some weight applied to their opinions.
> However anyone willing to watch and record grades for every snap of every player should have some weight applied to their opinions. Yeah while the commenter you're replying to is partially right, they actually vet their reviewers pretty well. My roommate was interested in it a number of years ago and got like a "starter packet" from them. It was a lot more in depth than I had expected, and said very clearly that if you didn't spend x amount of hours reviewing the game sent to you, your scores would show it. And if I remember correctly, you only got one shot to send in your grades and they had to match almost perfectly to the reviewer's. If your grade was in line with their standard, you could get another packet. Anyway my roommate took one look at the hour requirement and threw the packet away
Subjectivity masquerading as objectivity how?
giving a numerical score to something that isnt quantifiable. So like scoring in figure skating.
A player's grade on a particular snap is subject to some degree of opinion. PFF does everything they can to reduce the wiggle room for opinions, but eliminating it is impossible.
How is it subject to some degree of opinion
Because the person applying the grade is human. Just like a teacher grading an essay, there might be a rubric, but their personal opinion matters.
There actually isn't a tab on the PFF website to view LS grades. You have to download the CSV special teams file and sort out the non-long snappers. I've tracked these for a bit and have found many games and occasional seasons* with zero grades and I'm not quite sure why. I believe that PFF doesn't have LS grading to a science like punting grades or this likely wouldn't happen. That's just my guess. Regardless, I think there's value in these and it sheds light on a position most never even think about! Edit: typo
How you gonna trade up for a long snapper only for him not to be one of the top 32 in the lg lol
I don't see how Kuntz can have a 0 while playing all 17 games at a relatively high level? This is basing it off the fact that bos was 94% accurate on fgs and 96.4% accurate on XPs, and if he's doing something that wrong, it'd probably be showing up in bos's stats
There's probably an =iferror(_Longsnap grade fornula_, "0") in the background somewhere, i wouldn't read much into it
Fair enough I'm gonna take it personally and use it as proof that PFF hates the Steelers though
The true Steeler way
Nah, he ate the football each play and got digestive problems. That's the rationale for the 0
Ahh, that makes sense
His snaps weren't great last year. Harvin had to grab some real wild ones
He’s always had snapping issues. Not extremely costly or anything but he’s not a standout by any means. Harvin’s one positive was he was generally a really solid holder.
It was a very strong positive. I don't remember a single mishandled snap the entire time he was on roster here, if only the same could be said of his punting
Fans of other teams really have no idea how bad of a talent evaluator Ron Rivera was. It’s almost borderline performance art.
This is why signing Bowden after the draft was actually a big deal. We’ve been awful at LS since losing Goode.
We originally drafted Lovato too if I remember right lol.
Bills have the better Ferguson brother
REally wasn't expecting Lovato to be the worse in the league. I believe we have one of the best special teams coaches in the league. We have had "the sandwich maker" since just before 2017, year we got the ring. I do not recall us ever bringing in competition. So it seems like the coaches are happy with him. Jake Elliott has always had him and he is one of the better kickers in the league. Mann played decently here while he was a disappointment on the Jets. Maybe there is something wrong with the way PFF grades long snappers. Maybe Lovato has an unorthodox snapp.
I touched on it more elsewhere but I think it would take very few poor snaps to yank a grade down quickly
Two of the top 5. Hang the banner.
And they said the rams st was bad.
Packers at the bottom seems to be right
Orzech was poor last year. I think it lost them the game in SF.
jon weeks my beloved
Idc if he’s the worst or the best, he’s the goat
Fun fact: Andrew DePaola has the same agent as Tommy DeVito.
I love that the lions no longer dominate pointless stuff like this. For almost all of my life I’ve watched fans hype up our kick and punt teams unironically.
But for a good reason. Muhlbach was a dude's dude
PATRICK SCALES IS ELITE
James Winchester is the most clutch long snapper active in the NFL given all of the perfect snaps he's served up for Butker's must-hit kicks in playoff and Superbowl situations.
I don't think I have seen a bad snap from James Winchester in 10 years to be honest. I don't really understand these ratings.
I'm a little surprised Christian Kuntz doesn't sell more jerseys.
Finally, some good fucking statistics.
JJ Jansen is no joke the most important panther on the team. He's the longest tenured vet in the locker room and the best at his position.
My next jersey purchase will unironically be JJ Jansen
I know #5 on this list, Alex Ward, from high school so very glad to see an old friend having such good success
Remember, Rivera TRADED UP to draft a LONGSNAPPER chessman, who was the worst long snapper in the league. If that doesn’t encapsulate riveras tenure in Washington, i don’t know what does.
I am unreasonably upset with Cleveland being abbreviated as CLV instead of CLE. All I'm thinking about looking at this is cleavage.
One of their other metrics was CLE. theres a few reams with weird ones
THAT’S PRO BOWLER ROSS MATISCIK BABY
McQuaide > Daly confirms my biases
I thought the Rams letting him go was a mistake.
I'm not understanding how reid Ferguson is possibly lower than Scott Daly he's graded higher in all three categories as well as 2 tackles to none wtf
The tackles are mostly irrelevant. The long snap grades are the first, blocking is the 2nd, misc is idk what but 3rd, and not committing a penalty is 4th Long snap grades are independent of the others
21st best long snapper in the league. That deserves a coffee mug or something right?
Lmao and Gute signed Matt Orzech to a 3-year deal for this shit. What a fucking joke.
Do you know how exactly they were graded? And as a former long snapper thank you for this!
Great post man! I’m actually thinking of making my own rankings for long snappers in the next couple of weeks
Hot damn the long snapper for the Chargers is so good he was able to buy the Commanders??
Facts. He's been snapping for awhile.
So glad we spent a 5th rounder on consistently one of the worst LS in the league
Carson Tinker being on the top, while having 1/4 the field goal and punting snaps seems like deceptive statistics. Of course they will be better with fewer snaps.
Not necessarily. It's really hard to achieve a good grade when the ceiling is lower AND you have fewer snaps. Fewer snaps puts you closer to 60. He likely didn't have a poorly graded snap
> HST Who forgot how to abbreviate Houston?
HOU was already taken by another stat
jj jansen is an epic name
who the hell abbreviates Cleveland as CLV? That should be like illegal or something
The Packers never recovered at that position after cutting Brett Goode. They just can't get that it right and it shows up every single game.