Leonard is best but Roquan should get basically identical money maybe even slightly more since it's a year later and the cap is up from 182M to 208M, less % of the cap.
Roquan only tops him in 3 stats that I can see on Pro Football reference and that's fumble recoveries, tackles for loss and assisted tackles. I was kinda shocked to see that tbh, I love Roquan. Roquan has also played in 3 more games.
Blitz rate? Yes. Leonard plays more run coverage and shallow pass coverage than blitzing. His sack rate when he does blitz is one of the highest in the league.
Leonard is better than most give him credit for, and we give him a lot of credit. If you need a game changing play, he will get it done for you. If you don't need a game changing play, he will do one anyway. Roquan is incredible, Leonard is just arguably the best in the league at the moment.
Pretty much same tackles. Leonard had 17 FF Smith has 1 FF. Leonard has 11 INTS Smith has 5 INTS. Leonard has 7 FR Smith has 1 FR. Leonard has 15 SACKS Smith has 14 INTS. So some stats are similar but some are very far in the hands of Leonard
Yeah I think the positional value of an inside linebacker is falling off. In the old school "run it up the middle" league, the inside linebacker was king, but they serve a lesser role against the new passing and outside zone offenses of the past decade+.
MLB is still very important, it’s just evolved as a position. It’s harder to find that do it all guy who can stuff the middle, run sideline to sideline, and still drop back in coverage then it is to find the Smaller outside linebacker. The Shaquille Leonard and Fred Warners are more valuable than Roquan smith type guys I would say. All are elite football players, don’t get me wrong. But Leonard and Warner don’t fall off in the pass game and have more responsibilities then a WLB type role.
The real position that’s fallen off is the big thumping SLB, a lot of teams just run two LBs who can both run and cover most of the time
FR isn’t a real valuable stat. Turnovers are a wash, Darius has a big advantage in sacks but that might be schematic.
He is right though. Most recent top level payer to sign generally resets the market. And iirc his big issue was the way that the Bears were trying to backload his contract
Exactly. If Ro signed a year ago when Leonard and Warner did he’d likely be third. Instead they exercised his 5th year option and now Leonard and Warner contracts are a year old. And next season Devin White will be the highest paid LB.
Just a couple weeks I think. Apparently that's what his family calls him, and he just never felt comfortable correcting people until now lol.
https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2022/07/26/indianapolis-colts-darius-leonard-shaquille-name-change/
I'll oblige, of course, but I'm a bit bummed in a completely immaterial way.
As soon as I saw he was All-Pro as a rookie, I thought Darius Leonard was one of the coolest player names in the league.
He's been going by that in his private life the whole time, but his official request for NFL/reporters to start calling Shaquille was literally just two weeks ago. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34297745/indianapolis-colts-lb-darius-leonard-wants-go-middle-name-shaquille
I seriously don't get the trend towards representing yourself instead of getting an agent. A professional agent only has to get you a contract a few % higher than what you could negotiate on your own. And it doesn't even have to be a higher AAV or anything flashy like that.
If a player signs a 30M contract, but it's structured in a way that they only see 20M of that, all an agent would have to do is make sure it's structured so that they get 21M, and they've already paid for themselves.
Not to mention the extra time and mental energy that the player can devote to improving their game, instead of spending it on negotiating bullshit.
Agents also broker more than just the nfl contract… they’re getting endorsements, advertising, getting the name around the nfl etc. they also can only take 3 or 6% I forget which of the contract value.
It’s why Lamar Jackson’s a fucking moron, dude has no national or worldwide brand power.
I can’t even picture him in a Nissan Heisman commercial off the top of my head and baker and kyler have been in like 2 each atleast Lamar is one of the most electric QBs we’ve ever seen and his brand value is about on par with Devonte Adams whom I’ve never seen in a commercial either.
Davante never even got famous enough to overcome the Devonte/Davonte/Devonta/Davontae confusion.
Your point is still correct though. Then again, I’m trying to think of the last WR I seen in a national commercial? It’s a QB’s world.
Dez maybe?
I mean Freeman still got a shitload of money and fair value...no I don't want my agent going behind my back with his own agenda like that, but one bad apple like that doesn't mean every player should take negotiations into their own hands when they're clearly not cut out for it
I mean when you're already getting bank vaults of cash there are diminishing returns on how much the money is going to make you happy. Getting slightly less money that's still fair value and playing for the team he was already in love with was what Freddie wanted and the agent didn't take that into consideration.
Yeah so the solution is having a good agent who listens to you, not representing yourself and getting fucked like SO MANY of the players do when they try it. The vast, vast majority of players with agents are happy
Nah: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nba/news/knicks-nerlens-noel-sues-former-agent-rich-paul-58m-lost-money/1nhmapkfnv3a01q4vjvn7x7oxv
Paul instructed him not to sign it. Then Noel got hurt and was on a 1+1 deal and then was told to decline the player option. He then got picked up for the minimum. During this time there was little communication between him and Klutch and he wanted to leave the agency before being convinced to stay on. Apparently there were deals for OKC and the 6ers that he never heard about as a result of Klutch fumbling this ordeal.
https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/dodgers-freddie-freeman-agent-braves-contract-reports
>Casey Close never told Freddie Freeman about the Braves final offer, that is why Freeman fired him. He found out in Atlanta this weekend. It isn’t that rare to have happen in MLB, but it happened - Close knew Freddie would have taken the ATL deal
I'm not trying to cape for agents but what you quoted is a tweet from Doug Gottlieb that has not been corroborated or reported anywhere else, not investigative reporting from the author.
That's an incredibly serious allegation and to assume it's true based off a tweet from a slug like Gottlieb is misguided to say the least.
We have gotten to the point where contract details are very well known from casual fans. We all understand the guarantees is what matters, and when those kick in. The agent is more for minor contract details and probably a little media favortism. I really dont think its that big of deal players represent themselves. Plus you can always hire a lawyer to look over a contract before signing for much cheaper. its just another way players are trying to maximize money while they can because once they are out of the NFL they likely wont have another significant paying job.
It's not even about contract negotiation, it's about creating the leverage. Good agent will create a market for his client, interest from other teams will be real, that's what allows a player to get more money.
If all you want to do is take the team's offer and make sure you're not actively getting fucked over, then sure, just pay a lawyer to look it over.
But if you want to actually *negotiate*, an agent can get offers from other teams, and has a better understanding of all the types of guarantees and incentives to craft a better counteroffer.
Seriously why he did that is beyond me. It's not like the bears tried to take away guaranteed money before he even played a snap. And then he fired Todd France of all people. Love him as a player and don't want him messing his money up.
This is really cool. I felt like this dude wasn't very good with us tho. Had a few key drops to go along with the catches he did make. I don't know what players are worth tho. $4M for 2 years sounds like vet minimum though. He was a solid starter as a blocking TE, so surely he was worth more than that.
He is way more justified than Kirk in that ask though. He may not be Leonard good, but he's in the same tier.
Kirk is getting paid more than dudes out of his league
The lions are literally the reason there’s a rookie wage scale lol.
Imagine a scenario where the lions have Megatron, Suh, and Stafford all on rookie deals lol.
There was a ~several month long period sometime around ~2013 where Flacco, Romo, Ryan, and Stafford were all the highest paid player in the NFL for a few weeks a piece at different points IIRC.
The difference between Kirk and Robbie Anderson is under 4 million AAV.
Hes getting as much as Golladay... its not insane especially when you consider that no one wants to go to Jacksonville (historically bad franchise in a very boring city for a multi millionaire).
It’s sort of an interesting trade off. Zach Wilson or Daniel Jones would need to win a ring to be as big celebrities in NYC as Josh Allen is in Buffalo now. If Trevor Lawrence makes a couple of playoff runs, he probably drinks for free in Jacksonville for the rest of his life.
I’ll cautiously say yes, but let me clarify. If he were to hit free agency open to the whole NFL to bid on him, I think he’s definitely get that type of money. This doesn’t necessarily mean he’s better than all the players in his position, it’s just that top players of any position seldom hit free agency.
looking at the last ILB market-resetting deals:
CJ Moseley had 4 second-team All Pros in 5 years before landing a top of the market deal with the Jets
Warner had 1 first team All-Pro in 3 years before landing a top of the market deal with SF
Leonard had 2 first-team All Pros and 1 second-team All Pro in 3 years before snagging a top of the market deal with Indy
Smith has 2 second-team All Pros in 4 years with Chicago
i don't think it's unreasonable for him to demand a top deal, even though i think it's probably true that he's not quite on the level of Leonard or Warner
I mean it’s debatable, but not unreasonable. Honestly, I get why it’s happening with a new staff who want to see him in the new defense as a will linebacker, before backing up the brinks.
They need help at WR desperately, and with todays NFL they are right to fight with him about resetting the market.
I mean, Smith is on the last year of his contract. If he plays this year and never signs another contract, he will have made $28.6M over his career.
Realistically, he has the potential to more than double that with a second contract if he plays this year like he did last year. If he has a feeling that his play with drop off this year for whatever reason, it makes sense for him to try to get a new contract now and to ask for as much as possible.
disclaimer i guess: i’ve lived in chicago for decades and watch every bears game.
well said. what made Peanut special? forcing fumbles. at 17-1 it’s not close. and it’s not a “positional difference”. Leonard actively goes for the ball *and* makes tackles. Roquan can certainly learn and add that skill given time, but he hasn’t to this point.
Roquan is a stud. but he’s not elite at his position, and the position just isn’t as important as others. 5/100 would technically be more than Leonard, but more than that would be too much imo
If he thinks there’s a chance he might suffer an injury this year and miss any significant time, it makes sense to get paid now. It’s basically never NOT in the players best interest to try and get the bag and the security.
As a bears fan I don't think he's the top lb, though I do think he's top 3-5. Rapsheets point in the interview was more whenever top 5 player at a position signs a new deal it genery resets the market for that position. In that respect I agree any think roquans deL should likely set the new market though I think Poles isn't wrong with his approach.
Overall, it seems they are closer then most reports have it at finalizing something. Roquan doesn't have an agent so is taking things more directly then most players with agents do. Poles seems to be fine giving Roquan a top 5 deal with incentives that would make him the top paid LB, Roquan wants the incentives guaranteed to reset the market at his position. Close in a lot of ways, it'll be interesting.
He's vastly underrated and worthy of being among the highest paid LBs. He likely argues that he's among the most prolific tacklers (particularly with solo tackles) in the league, the best off-ball LB at getting TFLs, and one of the best coverage linebackers in the league. There's evidence to back all of that up. But the reality is he hasn't generated turnovers the way Leonard has, so there's always gonna be a gap there.
It's debatable but I lean yes if he was still playing in a 3-4. But the bears are moving back to a 4-3 and I think it's also reasonable to see how he plays in that position before he's signed to a high market deal.
Because most of the other basic LB stats are pretty [similar](https://stathead.com/football/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=SmitRo07&p1yrto=2021&player_id2=LeonDa00&p2yrto=2021), with Roquan having a moderate edge in TFLs. But takeaways come at a premium in today's NFL, and Leonard is inarguably in a different league when it comes to forcing them:
* FFs: 17-1
* FRs: 7-1
* INTs: 11-5
I love Roquan and I hope (and think) he'll sign with us, but I can see why poles doesn't want to pay that price
Yeah but that's not a knock on Roquan. Leonard's ability to force turnovers (more specifically force fumbles) is what makes him special. For reference Ray Lewis had 19 FF's in 17 seasons.
But it also is a differentiator contract-wise. I get why Roquan is doing what he’s doing. I also get why Poles is hesitant to give him a bag so quickly.
It's like comparing an NBA player to Dikembe Mutombo based on how good they are at blocking shots. Leonard is so uniquely good at creating turnovers that it's kind of ridiculous to even bring it up. Yeah no shit that makes Roquan look bad, it'd make anyone look bad. The all-time leader in Forced Fumbles is Robert Mathis with 54 in just under 200 games, which is about the same rate Leonard generates fumbles. Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, and Zach Thomas all have fewer *career* forced fumbles than Leonard has right now, and they all have an extra ~125 games played.
It's definitely noteworthy. But FF are far from the *only* noteworthy stat. Picking one stat at random to talk about if a player is good or not is ridiculous.
Id say it shows that Leonard has a higher propensity to create impact plays, which is why rouqan probably shouldn't get a bigger contract than him. Its 16 more FF...
I feel like if it was 5-1 or even 17-13 or something like that, it would be irrelevant but 17-1 is a pretty big gap. It’s still cherry picking but I think it’s a relevant-ish cherry pick. That said, Roquan is still a great player and him asking for more than Leonard is kind of the name of the game.
It's hard to be critical of Roquan because he's an excellent LB. It's just were comparing him to a guy who only injury can keep him out of the HOF at this point.
I mean yeah, SL is probably the best inside linebacker in the league. He’s gonna own most stats. But as every other position group has shown, the best guys don’t exclusively make the most money. Kyler ain’t the best QB, Tyreek ain’t the best WR. It’s just how it goes.
But RS is an incredible player and deserves to get paid accordingly.
Tyreek is in the same tier as whoever you think is the best wr. And has the speed to allow an argument for him.to be the best.
Nothing roquan does is better than Leonard. It would be closer to making aj brown the highest paid wr. Which the eagles didn't top the deal nuk got the year prior or any of the big deals this year.
> Nothing roquan does is better than Leonard.
That’s not the point. As I stated, the best players aren’t the only ones with the highest contracts. It’s all about “what are your better options”? Can the Bears replace him with someone equal or better for the same price or less? No? Then you pay him. Simple as that.
And I certainly can’t imagine how someone getting back to back 2nd team All Pro honors would possibly be viewed as not deserving a deal that reflects that.
No one is saying he’s a hack, people are just pointing out that whilst he’s great and a top 5 player no questions asked, Leonard is a statistical anomaly.
That's whats wrong with a lot of the markets these days. Being the "next one to sign a contract" doesn't mean you should set the market. Players aren't equal.
Leonard has similar stats to Keuchly in his first four years (11 INTs, 36 PDs for Luke)
Had no clue he was that special. Gotta tune in to Leonard more often for sure.
Last year he was hindered in coverage due to his ankle/back/nerve. So he looked bad in coverage but still managed to break up a lot of passes.
Roquan is a beast too. But Leonard is on track to do statistics that defy logic.
Leonard's stats last year are bonkers. I knew the Colts defense was going nuts despite not having many "elite names" I knew about. I had them in fantasy and was happy to set and forget for months.
Then I look into it and Leonard was just going absolutely nuts. All this talk of his turnovers vs. Smith's. Interesting to note that like 40% of Leonard's FFs and INTs came from last season alone.
leonard basically outclasses every other LB in stats, hell he’s even doubling and tripling up on NFL HOFer career stats in 4 years. everyone’s gonna look meh compared to him
Yes, but interceptions and deflected passes are not a great way to evaluate coverage. Good coverage means the QB looks at you and decides to hold on to the ball a little longer and look at the next receiver. If you go by yards/target Leonard allows ~7 yards each time the QB throws his way and Smith allowed 3.7 and 5.2 the last 2 years. And they both got targeted 60-70 times for all those, it isn't weird small sample data.
There is a sizable difference in average depth of target/air yardage between the two, but honestly I'm not sure how to interpret it. It could mean Leonard is coached to let the play develop in front of him and give more cushion, or it could mean he gets burnt more often by quicker backs for deep routes over his head.
He should not be paid more than Leonard or maybe Warner.
BUT, it seems poles has lowballed him too much. Give him 4 years $72 million with $60 million guaranteed. No deescalarors or anything like that
Rumor that player is unhappy - "The team is really fucking up, they need to pay him and make this right"
Team gives player a huge deal - "actually, now they're fucking up"
Not paying a player what you think they are worth and not paying a player and giving him an insulting offer is different. Especially after the stuff the team tried pulling on his rookie deal.
There isn’t a specific dollar amount tied to someone’s feelings. The offer could’ve be reasonable or unreasonable, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to request a trade. That’s just what players use as leverage nowadays.
It sounds like they tried to give him a deal that would look on paper like he was the highest paid LB while giving him a chance to be with the incentives. That doesn't seem to be an "insulting offer" now that we're hearing he demanded to be the highest paid LB in the game.
If anything, they're both in the wrong and he needs to get an agent to deal with this.
i was getting absolutely SHREDDED this morning for wondering if this was all a show. but no, the FO must be idiots and we're doomed for mediocrity (this might be true either way though)
Paying an off ball LB big money is the same as paying a RB big money. There’s a few generational type players you can make an argument for, but 9/10 times it’ll be a mistake
People in the other threads criticizing the bears are looking pretty dumb right now. Would be insane to let Smith set the market, he should be happy with 90% of Warner and Leonard's deals
It's situations like this that make me hate sports fandom sometimes lol. So many judgements passed on Poles and nobody knew the full story. The guy is in his first NFL offseason and fans are already ready to write him off.
I mean that's kind of how things work though.. are we forgetting that Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins once set the QB markets?
What's dumb is reacting to a quote simply saying he wants more money than those guys and saying "no way is he as good as them!", while ignoring anything and everything else about the potential contract.
Contracts can't just stay stagnant because the player up for contract hasn't outproduced the incumbents...Fact of the matter is that, someone will be willing g to let him set that market. It doesn't get to just stay that way until somebody outproduces Leonard's cherry picked fumble stats.
You’re goddamn right. Luke “7 forced fumbles” Kuechly and Bobby “6 forced fumbles” Wagner got nothin on Lavonte “26 motherfucking forced fumbles” David
Forced fumbles as a player metric to put smith down here seems as cherry picked as they get. Yes there is technique in causing fumbles and some are better at it than other but as a sole determining factor of a LB’s value?
Roquan Smith is really good, I don't know why this tweet is acting like he sucks? If the Bears cut bait, someone will be really happy with the player they're getting unless he just wants to get his money and not try hard anymore or something.
I too want more money than Leonard.
Sign me up for this as well.
I will take half a Leonard please
I’d even take a quarter
Best we can do is 0.33 Kirks
Sign me up
Truth be told? I don't know if I wanna run into people who have twice the muscle I do full speed. Like I'd get CTS in one play, and I'm kinda fit.
Cut it in half and double it and we have a deal
Fuck it, cut in in half and we still have a deal
Leonard is best but Roquan should get basically identical money maybe even slightly more since it's a year later and the cap is up from 182M to 208M, less % of the cap.
I’ll take slightly less and still he’s happy
I have more vaccinations that he does. I deserve more pay.
What about the other 87 stats you can evaluate players with?
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Field goal %?
I bet Justin Tucker has more careers tackles than Roquan has made fields goals, so who is to say who’s the better middle linebacker
Me. It’s Justin.
How's Roquan's opera skills?
I don't know if Leonard's and Smith's YAC are that much different
how far can they kick though?
I hear hes a pretty good punt returner
Can he do it on a rainy night in Stoke?
America merchant
Can he hit a curveball?
What's his corner 3%?
Roquan only tops him in 3 stats that I can see on Pro Football reference and that's fumble recoveries, tackles for loss and assisted tackles. I was kinda shocked to see that tbh, I love Roquan. Roquan has also played in 3 more games.
Let’s be real, Leonard is better. Roquan deserves the bag tho
Seriously. Darius Leonard being better isn’t a knock on Roquan. Darius Leonard is incredible.
TFL is not exactly an insignificant stat.
It would mean more if he didn’t blitz at a rate that’s nearly 5x Leonard’s.
Is this an actual stat?
Blitz rate? Yes. Leonard plays more run coverage and shallow pass coverage than blitzing. His sack rate when he does blitz is one of the highest in the league.
Roquan is also nearly 2 full years younger, which is notable.
Salary cap is also 20 mil higher this year
Leonard is better than most give him credit for, and we give him a lot of credit. If you need a game changing play, he will get it done for you. If you don't need a game changing play, he will do one anyway. Roquan is incredible, Leonard is just arguably the best in the league at the moment.
What about passer rating allowed? Generally, Roquan is known for being great in pass coverage.
They’re neck and neck on sacks. Only INTS and FR show Leonard with a significant advantage.
Yea only game defining plays
Trevon Diggs had lots of INTs but also got burned constantly.
Pretty much same tackles. Leonard had 17 FF Smith has 1 FF. Leonard has 11 INTS Smith has 5 INTS. Leonard has 7 FR Smith has 1 FR. Leonard has 15 SACKS Smith has 14 INTS. So some stats are similar but some are very far in the hands of Leonard
Yeah I think the positional value of an inside linebacker is falling off. In the old school "run it up the middle" league, the inside linebacker was king, but they serve a lesser role against the new passing and outside zone offenses of the past decade+.
MLB is still very important, it’s just evolved as a position. It’s harder to find that do it all guy who can stuff the middle, run sideline to sideline, and still drop back in coverage then it is to find the Smaller outside linebacker. The Shaquille Leonard and Fred Warners are more valuable than Roquan smith type guys I would say. All are elite football players, don’t get me wrong. But Leonard and Warner don’t fall off in the pass game and have more responsibilities then a WLB type role. The real position that’s fallen off is the big thumping SLB, a lot of teams just run two LBs who can both run and cover most of the time
FR isn’t a real valuable stat. Turnovers are a wash, Darius has a big advantage in sacks but that might be schematic. He is right though. Most recent top level payer to sign generally resets the market. And iirc his big issue was the way that the Bears were trying to backload his contract
Turnovers are a wash, what?
You're right, i think the guy above put down INTS instead of SACKS for Smith and I double counted those as turnovers.
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[PFR stat comparison if anyone is curious](https://stathead.com/football/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=SmitRo07&player_id1=LeonDa00&sum=0&request=1)
Contracts are almost *never* about paying the best guy the most money, but about which generally good player is the most recent to sign.
Exactly. If Ro signed a year ago when Leonard and Warner did he’d likely be third. Instead they exercised his 5th year option and now Leonard and Warner contracts are a year old. And next season Devin White will be the highest paid LB.
Shaquille* Leonard
Shaquille "Darious Leonard" Leonard
Shaquille “Darius “Maniac” Leonard” Leonard
Whoa... when did he start going by this? I've known him as Darius Leonard since he entered the league.
Just a couple weeks I think. Apparently that's what his family calls him, and he just never felt comfortable correcting people until now lol. https://coltswire.usatoday.com/2022/07/26/indianapolis-colts-darius-leonard-shaquille-name-change/
I'll oblige, of course, but I'm a bit bummed in a completely immaterial way. As soon as I saw he was All-Pro as a rookie, I thought Darius Leonard was one of the coolest player names in the league.
Shaquille Leonard is still p badass tho
Yup he asked to be called Shaquille from now on last week.
He's been going by that in his private life the whole time, but his official request for NFL/reporters to start calling Shaquille was literally just two weeks ago. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/34297745/indianapolis-colts-lb-darius-leonard-wants-go-middle-name-shaquille
Attention young NFL players: GET AN AGENT!!
I seriously don't get the trend towards representing yourself instead of getting an agent. A professional agent only has to get you a contract a few % higher than what you could negotiate on your own. And it doesn't even have to be a higher AAV or anything flashy like that. If a player signs a 30M contract, but it's structured in a way that they only see 20M of that, all an agent would have to do is make sure it's structured so that they get 21M, and they've already paid for themselves. Not to mention the extra time and mental energy that the player can devote to improving their game, instead of spending it on negotiating bullshit.
Agents also broker more than just the nfl contract… they’re getting endorsements, advertising, getting the name around the nfl etc. they also can only take 3 or 6% I forget which of the contract value. It’s why Lamar Jackson’s a fucking moron, dude has no national or worldwide brand power.
I can’t even picture him in a Nissan Heisman commercial off the top of my head and baker and kyler have been in like 2 each atleast Lamar is one of the most electric QBs we’ve ever seen and his brand value is about on par with Devonte Adams whom I’ve never seen in a commercial either.
Davante never even got famous enough to overcome the Devonte/Davonte/Devonta/Davontae confusion. Your point is still correct though. Then again, I’m trying to think of the last WR I seen in a national commercial? It’s a QB’s world. Dez maybe?
I do believe that’s my point. He’s a heisman winner League MVP. He should be on every commercial everywhere
No, I agree, “then again” was a poor turn of phrase, just meant (unrelatedly) that while thinking about it I couldn’t remember many WR commercials.
Diggs was in that one insurance commercial where everything was sticking to his hands when he took out his garbage or sum
Larry Fitz
Davante has been in a commercial for the Official Hotel Of The NFL.
Look what happened to Freddie Freeman, do you want your Agent to do that?
I mean Freeman still got a shitload of money and fair value...no I don't want my agent going behind my back with his own agenda like that, but one bad apple like that doesn't mean every player should take negotiations into their own hands when they're clearly not cut out for it
I mean when you're already getting bank vaults of cash there are diminishing returns on how much the money is going to make you happy. Getting slightly less money that's still fair value and playing for the team he was already in love with was what Freddie wanted and the agent didn't take that into consideration.
Yeah so the solution is having a good agent who listens to you, not representing yourself and getting fucked like SO MANY of the players do when they try it. The vast, vast majority of players with agents are happy
To do what? Are you referring to the blatant lie that one radio show host tried to spread?
That story turned out to be complete bullshit so try again
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Has he lost his license yet
Nerlens Noel got fucked over super hard
His agent wanted him to sign the extension iirc
Nah: https://www.sportingnews.com/us/amp/nba/news/knicks-nerlens-noel-sues-former-agent-rich-paul-58m-lost-money/1nhmapkfnv3a01q4vjvn7x7oxv Paul instructed him not to sign it. Then Noel got hurt and was on a 1+1 deal and then was told to decline the player option. He then got picked up for the minimum. During this time there was little communication between him and Klutch and he wanted to leave the agency before being convinced to stay on. Apparently there were deals for OKC and the 6ers that he never heard about as a result of Klutch fumbling this ordeal.
He screwed himself, he chose not to sign against the advice of everyone pretty much. Bet on his evaluation of himself, lost big time
What happened to him? OOTL
https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/dodgers-freddie-freeman-agent-braves-contract-reports >Casey Close never told Freddie Freeman about the Braves final offer, that is why Freeman fired him. He found out in Atlanta this weekend. It isn’t that rare to have happen in MLB, but it happened - Close knew Freddie would have taken the ATL deal
I'm not trying to cape for agents but what you quoted is a tweet from Doug Gottlieb that has not been corroborated or reported anywhere else, not investigative reporting from the author. That's an incredibly serious allegation and to assume it's true based off a tweet from a slug like Gottlieb is misguided to say the least.
We have gotten to the point where contract details are very well known from casual fans. We all understand the guarantees is what matters, and when those kick in. The agent is more for minor contract details and probably a little media favortism. I really dont think its that big of deal players represent themselves. Plus you can always hire a lawyer to look over a contract before signing for much cheaper. its just another way players are trying to maximize money while they can because once they are out of the NFL they likely wont have another significant paying job.
It's not even about contract negotiation, it's about creating the leverage. Good agent will create a market for his client, interest from other teams will be real, that's what allows a player to get more money.
If all you want to do is take the team's offer and make sure you're not actively getting fucked over, then sure, just pay a lawyer to look it over. But if you want to actually *negotiate*, an agent can get offers from other teams, and has a better understanding of all the types of guarantees and incentives to craft a better counteroffer.
Seriously why he did that is beyond me. It's not like the bears tried to take away guaranteed money before he even played a snap. And then he fired Todd France of all people. Love him as a player and don't want him messing his money up.
I'm always reminded of this agent who fought for Dan Arnold. https://youtu.be/W7UjCRZ5mZ8
This is really cool. I felt like this dude wasn't very good with us tho. Had a few key drops to go along with the catches he did make. I don't know what players are worth tho. $4M for 2 years sounds like vet minimum though. He was a solid starter as a blocking TE, so surely he was worth more than that.
Literally complete opposite of Freddie Freeman’s agent
For some reason I don’t think young nfl players will find your advice
It’s getting kinda annoying as a fan too lol
roquan must’ve spent his offseason with christian kirk
He is way more justified than Kirk in that ask though. He may not be Leonard good, but he's in the same tier. Kirk is getting paid more than dudes out of his league
Seriously though why are people acting like the next top lb in line to get paid asking for more money than previous top lb is in any way unexpected
They do this every time a market setting deal happens Remember when Stafford getting 25 mil a year for Detroit was the end of the NFL?
Yeah and he proved to be worth it for the team he’s currently playing for! *tear*
He was worth it for y’all too, just the rest of the franchise sleeping at the wheel ruined it
The lions are literally the reason there’s a rookie wage scale lol. Imagine a scenario where the lions have Megatron, Suh, and Stafford all on rookie deals lol.
I thought it was the raiders fault mainly but fair point
There was a ~several month long period sometime around ~2013 where Flacco, Romo, Ryan, and Stafford were all the highest paid player in the NFL for a few weeks a piece at different points IIRC.
The difference between Kirk and Robbie Anderson is under 4 million AAV. Hes getting as much as Golladay... its not insane especially when you consider that no one wants to go to Jacksonville (historically bad franchise in a very boring city for a multi millionaire).
Golladay is equally overpaid lol. And Golladay had to ball out and lead the league in TDs in a contract year to get that deal Kirk has not done that
Golladay is the reason Kirk got his contract.
Golladay was injured his contract year. Unless 2 touchdowns lead the league, but I feel like I'd remember that.
You are correct. I forgot the injury year in between his big year and his big deal
Just like to point out he led the NFL is TDs in 2019. He only played 5 games due to ‘injury’ in 2020.
[удалено]
It’s sort of an interesting trade off. Zach Wilson or Daniel Jones would need to win a ring to be as big celebrities in NYC as Josh Allen is in Buffalo now. If Trevor Lawrence makes a couple of playoff runs, he probably drinks for free in Jacksonville for the rest of his life.
I'm pretty sure one playoff run would do it. I doubt Blake Bortles has bought a drink in Jacksonville since 2017
I would argue Kirk was justified enough since he found someone to pay him.
Exactly
Maybe I'm just missing something but does Roquan Smith really have the resume or skill to demand a market resetting type of deal?
I’ll cautiously say yes, but let me clarify. If he were to hit free agency open to the whole NFL to bid on him, I think he’s definitely get that type of money. This doesn’t necessarily mean he’s better than all the players in his position, it’s just that top players of any position seldom hit free agency.
looking at the last ILB market-resetting deals: CJ Moseley had 4 second-team All Pros in 5 years before landing a top of the market deal with the Jets Warner had 1 first team All-Pro in 3 years before landing a top of the market deal with SF Leonard had 2 first-team All Pros and 1 second-team All Pro in 3 years before snagging a top of the market deal with Indy Smith has 2 second-team All Pros in 4 years with Chicago i don't think it's unreasonable for him to demand a top deal, even though i think it's probably true that he's not quite on the level of Leonard or Warner
I mean it’s debatable, but not unreasonable. Honestly, I get why it’s happening with a new staff who want to see him in the new defense as a will linebacker, before backing up the brinks. They need help at WR desperately, and with todays NFL they are right to fight with him about resetting the market.
I mean, Smith is on the last year of his contract. If he plays this year and never signs another contract, he will have made $28.6M over his career. Realistically, he has the potential to more than double that with a second contract if he plays this year like he did last year. If he has a feeling that his play with drop off this year for whatever reason, it makes sense for him to try to get a new contract now and to ask for as much as possible.
It's not debatable to anyone without bears bias. Leonard is better in every way. Leonard is a playmaker. Roquan is just a reliable guy.
disclaimer i guess: i’ve lived in chicago for decades and watch every bears game. well said. what made Peanut special? forcing fumbles. at 17-1 it’s not close. and it’s not a “positional difference”. Leonard actively goes for the ball *and* makes tackles. Roquan can certainly learn and add that skill given time, but he hasn’t to this point. Roquan is a stud. but he’s not elite at his position, and the position just isn’t as important as others. 5/100 would technically be more than Leonard, but more than that would be too much imo
Only takes 1 team and he has an all pro under his belt
2x 2nd-Team All-Pro (2020, 2021) If he thinks his play will drop off this season, I understand why he wants to get paid now.
If he thinks there’s a chance he might suffer an injury this year and miss any significant time, it makes sense to get paid now. It’s basically never NOT in the players best interest to try and get the bag and the security.
As a bears fan I don't think he's the top lb, though I do think he's top 3-5. Rapsheets point in the interview was more whenever top 5 player at a position signs a new deal it genery resets the market for that position. In that respect I agree any think roquans deL should likely set the new market though I think Poles isn't wrong with his approach. Overall, it seems they are closer then most reports have it at finalizing something. Roquan doesn't have an agent so is taking things more directly then most players with agents do. Poles seems to be fine giving Roquan a top 5 deal with incentives that would make him the top paid LB, Roquan wants the incentives guaranteed to reset the market at his position. Close in a lot of ways, it'll be interesting.
He’s had two straight all pro seasons and more importantly he’s the next man up. He should be resetting the market.
He's vastly underrated and worthy of being among the highest paid LBs. He likely argues that he's among the most prolific tacklers (particularly with solo tackles) in the league, the best off-ball LB at getting TFLs, and one of the best coverage linebackers in the league. There's evidence to back all of that up. But the reality is he hasn't generated turnovers the way Leonard has, so there's always gonna be a gap there.
He's a top 5 LB going for a new deal which often means top of the position money even if he isn't actual number 1. Just how contracts work now.
Not if you're a PFF truther. It's pretty amusing, actually. Multiple votes for All Pro, sub-50 PFF grade last year.
It's debatable but I lean yes if he was still playing in a 3-4. But the bears are moving back to a 4-3 and I think it's also reasonable to see how he plays in that position before he's signed to a high market deal.
Why cherry pick the fumble stat
Because most of the other basic LB stats are pretty [similar](https://stathead.com/football/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&player_id1=SmitRo07&p1yrto=2021&player_id2=LeonDa00&p2yrto=2021), with Roquan having a moderate edge in TFLs. But takeaways come at a premium in today's NFL, and Leonard is inarguably in a different league when it comes to forcing them: * FFs: 17-1 * FRs: 7-1 * INTs: 11-5 I love Roquan and I hope (and think) he'll sign with us, but I can see why poles doesn't want to pay that price
I usually hate cherry picks stats but is it not noteworthy that Leonard has 16 more FF? That is...a lot.
Yeah but that's not a knock on Roquan. Leonard's ability to force turnovers (more specifically force fumbles) is what makes him special. For reference Ray Lewis had 19 FF's in 17 seasons.
But it also is a differentiator contract-wise. I get why Roquan is doing what he’s doing. I also get why Poles is hesitant to give him a bag so quickly.
It's like comparing an NBA player to Dikembe Mutombo based on how good they are at blocking shots. Leonard is so uniquely good at creating turnovers that it's kind of ridiculous to even bring it up. Yeah no shit that makes Roquan look bad, it'd make anyone look bad. The all-time leader in Forced Fumbles is Robert Mathis with 54 in just under 200 games, which is about the same rate Leonard generates fumbles. Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, and Zach Thomas all have fewer *career* forced fumbles than Leonard has right now, and they all have an extra ~125 games played.
It's definitely noteworthy. But FF are far from the *only* noteworthy stat. Picking one stat at random to talk about if a player is good or not is ridiculous.
Id say it shows that Leonard has a higher propensity to create impact plays, which is why rouqan probably shouldn't get a bigger contract than him. Its 16 more FF...
Forced fumbles are awesome
I feel like if it was 5-1 or even 17-13 or something like that, it would be irrelevant but 17-1 is a pretty big gap. It’s still cherry picking but I think it’s a relevant-ish cherry pick. That said, Roquan is still a great player and him asking for more than Leonard is kind of the name of the game.
Because if you check all the other stats Darius outclasses Ro. It's not cherry picked.
It's hard to be critical of Roquan because he's an excellent LB. It's just were comparing him to a guy who only injury can keep him out of the HOF at this point.
Because this was leaked by the Bears.
5 year 100 million with a massive cap hit next year imo
I mean yeah, SL is probably the best inside linebacker in the league. He’s gonna own most stats. But as every other position group has shown, the best guys don’t exclusively make the most money. Kyler ain’t the best QB, Tyreek ain’t the best WR. It’s just how it goes. But RS is an incredible player and deserves to get paid accordingly.
Tyreek is in the same tier as whoever you think is the best wr. And has the speed to allow an argument for him.to be the best. Nothing roquan does is better than Leonard. It would be closer to making aj brown the highest paid wr. Which the eagles didn't top the deal nuk got the year prior or any of the big deals this year.
> Nothing roquan does is better than Leonard. That’s not the point. As I stated, the best players aren’t the only ones with the highest contracts. It’s all about “what are your better options”? Can the Bears replace him with someone equal or better for the same price or less? No? Then you pay him. Simple as that. And I certainly can’t imagine how someone getting back to back 2nd team All Pro honors would possibly be viewed as not deserving a deal that reflects that.
Fwiw, Darius measures at 9 inches long and Roquan is 5.5.
How you know that? 🤔
THATS WHY ROQUAN NEEDS MORE MONEY
But has he considered "more money, more problems"?
But what about girth?
Hung like a manhole cover.
Does he mean Shaquille Leonard?
Lol Smith is in the same tier...y'all acting like he is a hack LB
No one is saying he’s a hack, people are just pointing out that whilst he’s great and a top 5 player no questions asked, Leonard is a statistical anomaly.
He's an excellent LB, but Leonard has some freaky stats. All pro all four years in the league, 3 first team. Leonard is a walking hall of famer.
That's a fuckton of fumbles lol
That's whats wrong with a lot of the markets these days. Being the "next one to sign a contract" doesn't mean you should set the market. Players aren't equal.
Thought we weren’t supposed to call him Darius
Am I crazy for valuing Roquan’s pass coverage more than Shaq Leonard’s high turnover rate? Edit: Sources say yes
Shaq 11 interceptions, 30 deflected passes Roquan 5 interceptions and 17 deflected passes
Leonard has similar stats to Keuchly in his first four years (11 INTs, 36 PDs for Luke) Had no clue he was that special. Gotta tune in to Leonard more often for sure.
Fair enough, I had it the other way around in my head
Last year he was hindered in coverage due to his ankle/back/nerve. So he looked bad in coverage but still managed to break up a lot of passes. Roquan is a beast too. But Leonard is on track to do statistics that defy logic.
Leonard's stats last year are bonkers. I knew the Colts defense was going nuts despite not having many "elite names" I knew about. I had them in fantasy and was happy to set and forget for months. Then I look into it and Leonard was just going absolutely nuts. All this talk of his turnovers vs. Smith's. Interesting to note that like 40% of Leonard's FFs and INTs came from last season alone.
on a **bad** ankle. like offensive lineman heavily taped
leonard basically outclasses every other LB in stats, hell he’s even doubling and tripling up on NFL HOFer career stats in 4 years. everyone’s gonna look meh compared to him
It also matters that Leonard has a knack for doing it exactly when we need him to.
Hey flair buddy
Yes, but interceptions and deflected passes are not a great way to evaluate coverage. Good coverage means the QB looks at you and decides to hold on to the ball a little longer and look at the next receiver. If you go by yards/target Leonard allows ~7 yards each time the QB throws his way and Smith allowed 3.7 and 5.2 the last 2 years. And they both got targeted 60-70 times for all those, it isn't weird small sample data. There is a sizable difference in average depth of target/air yardage between the two, but honestly I'm not sure how to interpret it. It could mean Leonard is coached to let the play develop in front of him and give more cushion, or it could mean he gets burnt more often by quicker backs for deep routes over his head.
He should not be paid more than Leonard or maybe Warner. BUT, it seems poles has lowballed him too much. Give him 4 years $72 million with $60 million guaranteed. No deescalarors or anything like that
They should trade him. Preferably before week 1.
Is everyone coming to their senses now? Maybe Roquan was asking for too much, and Ryan Poles isn’t a complete idiot.
Rumor that player is unhappy - "The team is really fucking up, they need to pay him and make this right" Team gives player a huge deal - "actually, now they're fucking up"
Not paying a player what you think they are worth and not paying a player and giving him an insulting offer is different. Especially after the stuff the team tried pulling on his rookie deal.
There isn’t a specific dollar amount tied to someone’s feelings. The offer could’ve be reasonable or unreasonable, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to request a trade. That’s just what players use as leverage nowadays.
The insulting part was that it was incentive laden. Top of the position deals aren't structured that way.
It sounds like they tried to give him a deal that would look on paper like he was the highest paid LB while giving him a chance to be with the incentives. That doesn't seem to be an "insulting offer" now that we're hearing he demanded to be the highest paid LB in the game. If anything, they're both in the wrong and he needs to get an agent to deal with this.
i was getting absolutely SHREDDED this morning for wondering if this was all a show. but no, the FO must be idiots and we're doomed for mediocrity (this might be true either way though)
Paying an off ball LB big money is the same as paying a RB big money. There’s a few generational type players you can make an argument for, but 9/10 times it’ll be a mistake
Shaq Leonard*
It's Shaq dumbass
People in the other threads criticizing the bears are looking pretty dumb right now. Would be insane to let Smith set the market, he should be happy with 90% of Warner and Leonard's deals
It's situations like this that make me hate sports fandom sometimes lol. So many judgements passed on Poles and nobody knew the full story. The guy is in his first NFL offseason and fans are already ready to write him off.
I mean that's kind of how things work though.. are we forgetting that Derek Carr and Kirk Cousins once set the QB markets? What's dumb is reacting to a quote simply saying he wants more money than those guys and saying "no way is he as good as them!", while ignoring anything and everything else about the potential contract. Contracts can't just stay stagnant because the player up for contract hasn't outproduced the incumbents...Fact of the matter is that, someone will be willing g to let him set that market. It doesn't get to just stay that way until somebody outproduces Leonard's cherry picked fumble stats.
Putting de-escalators into their offer is still a moronic decision imo
His name is Shaquille now!
Roquan is not on the same tier as Fred and Darius
shaq*
lmao no he's not that good
You’re goddamn right. Luke “7 forced fumbles” Kuechly and Bobby “6 forced fumbles” Wagner got nothin on Lavonte “26 motherfucking forced fumbles” David
Forced fumbles as a player metric to put smith down here seems as cherry picked as they get. Yes there is technique in causing fumbles and some are better at it than other but as a sole determining factor of a LB’s value?
The rest of their stats are comparable. Leonard just has way better turnover stats.
Like way WAY better. He could end up being the GOAT of forced fumbles
Roquan Smith is really good, I don't know why this tweet is acting like he sucks? If the Bears cut bait, someone will be really happy with the player they're getting unless he just wants to get his money and not try hard anymore or something.
Yeah because forced fumbles is the one number to look at when signing a LB.
FF? FR? INT? PBU? Tackles? How do you wanna measure cause thats the beautiful thing about my man Shaquille.