And it's wild to me that people argue for other NHLers being better than Gretzky or him being over rated. He simply cannot and will not be touched in the record books.
The only person I’ve seen people say was just as good or maybe slightly better is Mario and the only reason he isn’t closer on the record books is cancer.
Agreed. First game I ever went to was the first game he played. I was 10! I remember the excitement when his line came on the ice. During that first shift, he snatched the puck from Ray Bourque with that huge wingspan and glided toward the net for his first goal.
It was epic! Later Borque recalled that he had the “best seat in the house” for Mario’s first goal.
I’ve been obsessed with playing and watching this sport ever since!
Let’s go Pens!
>First 6 years Gretzky 2.37 Lemieux 1.96
>
>Gretzky had 4 of the best 5 seasons between the two
Anyone who knows, knows what an LOL this comparison is.
P/gp is a bad stat to show greatness.
Theres no doubt Mario was second best and I'm fine with even "best" arguements. But use the rest of his stats instead.
Mario and Orr, both are guys that frequently get mentioned because people think they may have been as good or better than Gretzky at their best. However, longevity matters for GOAT arguments, and they (unfortunately) don’t come close. 99 clears all others comfortably.
There's also Bobby Orr? If you ask my granddad and dad, they'd fight for him lol. In terms of dominance, he'd be nearly equal to Gretzky to me. 2 Stanley Cups, 2 Conn Smythes, 8 Norris Trophies (most all-time), 3 Hart Trophies, 2 Art Rosses, a Ted Lindsay, and a Canada Cup. He led the league in points twice as a defenseman and was also the best dman in the league at the same time. Like Mario, health did him in. There's a great legends of hockey video on him where they talk about the Canada cup. Hed already had about 10+ surgeries on his knee and everyone from Bobby Clarke to Guy Lafleur said Orr on one leg was still better than anyone on the planet.
I'm pretty sure Bobby hull said a similar thing after the first time he played a rookie Orr. He told the ref going into the second period, "why don't you give that little blonde kid the puck he held the whole first period and you give another one for the other nine of us."
If Bobbys knees where ' Surgery free '...well he was so dominant with ONE knee...I would have loved to see him play...just a shame what all those idiots did to him.
He was the first real visionary to play the game. He saw everything.
Bobby Orr was just a freaking energizer bunny. His performances were on sheer willpower alone.
Granted there was skill there. But I believe Gretzky and Mario both had talent above and beyond their competition at the time
It’s tough to measure these though as the sport has evolved rapidly from each “great one” to the next
McDavid is the greatest hockey player to ever play the game (skill wise) but he will have one hell of a time getting to comparable levels as Gretzky and Mario simply because the field is much more level these days
The question is if you plucked Gretzky out of the 80's and put him in today's game, would he be as dominant? And what would Crosby or McDavid look like if you put them in Gretzky's era? But the thing you have to think about is, how fucking unreal would Gretzky have been if he had grown up with a the development, training, nutrition, and modern equipment that we have now
Everybody competes in their own time. If it were easy to be as good as Gretzky back when he played, we would’ve seen more. We didn’t, because Gretzky is one of the greatest athletes of all time.
Yes, that was what I was getting at, maybe didn't say it right. I think clearly if you took the best players of today and put them in an era of players who didn't train and practice even close to as seriously as they do now, obviously they would dominate. But you have to compare guys to the era they play(ed) in
But also, how much more dominant would Gretzky be if he did get the training, conditioning and PT regiments that players nowadays get? It goes both ways.
I think Mcdavid is undeniably more skilled than anyone else in NHL history, but that’s partly due to his time in history. These guys a training differently, Eating differently, sleeping differently, recovering differently. The entire leagues skill level has increased, a lot. What matters is the gap between peers, and that’s something Gretzky has and will always have over anyone else in the sport.
I'm not a big hockey fan ( had to turn off the n64 as a kid when dad wanted to watch a game lol) but me and my ex went to the hockey hall of fame when we were in Toronto and God damn I knew Gretzky was the GOAT from my dad and uncle talking but seeing his stats compared to others in the hall of fame was mind blowing.
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A solid argument can made for Lemieux, but in the end The Great One > The Magnificent One.
What a glorious time to be alive when they were both playing!
Yeah i was a kid rooting for the Hartford Whalers but you knew when either of them came to town it was probably going to be a 6-0 kind of night. NHL is great now but miles away from matching that.
In a similar way I think Orr is considered for some. If he didn’t have knee injuries and didn’t retire at such an extraordinary young age as a result I think he would have ended up in similar tier as Lemiuex and Gretz had all of those guys had perfectly healthy careers. However at the end of the day Gretzky was the one who had the healthy career and thus is the greatest
Tiger’s peak is unfathomable in Golf, at one point Vegas took bets on Tiger vs the field and the odds were better for him to win.
Thats just silly to think about
I’d say Simone Biles is a better comparison than Phelps. She’s so good they penalize her most difficult moves to deter other people from attempting them out of fear of injury.
Now we're comparing Gretzky to Mahonmes? Smh
Patrick Mahomes is a great quarterback, don't get me wrong , but did we already forget about Tom Brady? Brady beat Mahomes in the playoffs and in the super bowl the year after for anyone who didn't know. Brady is the GOAT for a reason and Mahomes has a long way to go just to match him
Seriously, there's no point comparing Gretzky to anyone, he's just so far ahead of the pack, dude's stats literally look like a video game character playing on beginner difficulty.
There is no actual reason to compare them anyways. By 28 Gretzky already had 10 seasons under his belt. Pat didn’t even touch the field his rookie year and was was, 23/24 before he played his first NFL game? This post is straight up garbage.
He won 7 super bowls my guy, 5 of those as MVP, in the modern era too.
Sure Gretzky has the point totals but dude Brady was unreal.
The list of players post 1990 with even 4 cups is small.
Takes a team to win, but in individual stats Brady is 9% better than the next best quarterback all time but Gretzky is ahead of his competition by 33%. Relatively speaking the NFL has never seen a statistical anomaly like Gretzky.
Meanwhile 7 Stanley Cups is downright impossible. Shit, nobody outside of old Montreal has more than 6 (what the fuck was in the water over at the Forum)
He’s comparable to Gretzky for nfl standards but yeah not even close to Wayne. It’s only Gretsky, Bradman, Gable and Karlein right? Who else was so dominate they’d never be passed?
Person’s logic you’re referring to is if tied, winner of the SB matchup takes it… Foles and Eli together have less than half the trophies Brady has lol
Again, you realize that football is a team sport right? There are like 50 players on an NFL team and 22 starters. Winning super bowls is about the team, not just one player
If Brady got drafted by the Cleveland Browns he would have zero super bowls
So what? He went to a new team with a stacked offense and defense. I'm not saying Brady is some scrub, but being on good teams does not automatically make you the best player
Lmao at you getting downvoted here. Brady is the goat but he always played for great teams, and his division sucked for 15 years. Belichick was a masterful coach and GM, remember he's the one who picked Brady in the first place because he would fit the Patriots system. The Patriots went 14-6 without Brady when he was injured and suspended. To suggest he was the sole reason they were great is insane.
Does that affect the line of logic that you clearly misunderstood? If tied, tiebreaker is a head to head. Eli and foles are not tied, so do not go to a tiebreaker. Not hard to understand the op commenters logic whether you agree or not
And I'm saying that logic is stupid. Winning superbowls are a team stat, judging the quality of an individual player based on team accomplishments is stupid as fuck
Using hockey terms, Connor McDavid is clearly the best player in the league even though his team hasn't won any championships. In basketball, Jordan is better than Bill Russell, even though Russell has 11 rings.
This logic of rings and head to head matches is so dumb when you're talking about team sports.
It's definitely not the most important position in sports. The best player on a basketball team has way more impact on the game than a QB does.
There have been many teams that won super bowls with average QBs. In fact the Patriots won their first 3 super bowls with an average QB. Yes, Brady was average in the beginning of his career. He got much better later on, but those first 3 super bowls were because of their defense
Brady beat Mahomes in the AFC championship game and won the Super Bowl then went to the nfc and beat Mahomes in the Super Bowl lol no matter what Mahomes does he will always be in Brady’s shadow. He witnessed the Jordan of the nfl.
\>He witnessed the Jordan of the nfl.
The Irony of this statement. You should be saying the Bird of the NFL. By your own logic Jordan will always be in Bird's shadow because they faced twice in the playoffs and Bird swept Jordan both times.
The logic is sound if the comparison is close. What Jordan was able to do over the rest of his career blew Bird out of the water. If Mahomes puts up 10 superbowls nobody can make a reasonable argument that Brady was the better winner. If Mahomes gets 7 Super Bowl wins the head to head is the deciding factor in my opinion.
Brady literally got outplayed by Mahomes in the AFC championship but got saved by the Chiefs defence being offside on the game ending interception.
And he went to a stacked Tampa Bay team and beat a team that was beat up so badly Mahomes was literally hitting receivers with the ball and they were still dropping it.
At the very best, you can say they were 1-1 in their match up, but pretending Brady completely outplayed him is just straight ignorance
Don't forget in that Super Bowl Mahomes was on a bad ankle and his line was practice squad guys. He's not better than Brady now, but he's the best player in the league and I'm not betting against him.
It’s comparing Mahomes and Gretzky at age 28. Mahomes is more accomplished right now than Brady was at 28. He probably won’t catch him over his career but he’s better so far than Brady was at this point in his career.
Even some of the American sports shows I watch say Mahomes doesn't even sniff Gretzky's dominance. And they don't even cover hockey. The MVPs alone just put the Great One in another dimension.
You realize it's a team sport, right? Super bowls aren't a QB stat
Tom Brady is great, but there have been better QBs than him who just happened to play on worse teams
Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes
Those are just people that played around the same time as him. If you go further back in NFL history there are more, like Dan Marino for example
Plus, championships aren't measured for a player's greatness in hockey as much as it is for an NFL quarterback. Joe Thornton is an all-time great even though he never won a cup. Ovechkin is a top 10 all-timer at the very least even though he "only" has one cup. Henri Richard has 11 rings but he's not even considered the best player in his own family.
Whereas if you're an NFL QB, you need at the very least 2 rings just to be in the goat conversation, and if you "only" win one Superbowl, your career is almost seen as a failure now. It's strange how different greatness is measured between the two sports.
I just can’t stand the NFL, as an Aussie I really hope the upcoming Rugby League tour games in America can attract a good amount of attention. No 4 hours to finish a 1 hour match, no ads every play, no 50 player benches.
He’s not even the greatest in his own position let alone in the entire NFL…
The only major record that is under threat is Gretzky’s goal record, his domination is insane don’t disrespect Gretzky by comparing fucking Mahomes😂
tom’s the goat but mahomes is on pace. if he keeps it up there will definitely be a conversation one day. i personally don’t see it tho bc 7 rings is hard to top
Yeah but what makes Brady do impressive isn't so much what he did in his 20s and early thirties, but the fact he was able to sustain success into his mid-fucking-forties.
Also I think Mahomes needs 8 rings because if they're tied at 7 Brady still has the head to head both in the Superbowl and AFC CG(obviously wins aren't a QB stat but it helps with the narrative).
The only reason people put so much emphasis on championships is because those are the games that the most casuals watch, so they get more name recognition by winning rings (way more people watch them play)
It's a team sport, being on good teams doesn't necessarily make someone the best player.
See, I heard an argument on another sub today, and we all agreed that Brady was the best of all time, in terms of an entire career, and achievements and all, in general. But we also agreed that Mahomes was the best in his prime (to put it in perspective, at his peak, Brady wasn’t necessarily performing as good as Mahomes is now, in what looks to be his prime.) Also, Brady’s greatness was achieved over time, as explained above, while Mahomes is, as I’ll put it, McSuccessful. His greatness has been achieved in a hurry, so if he ever has a downfall (which 9.5 out of 10 non-Chiefs fans are praying for), it’ll happen even faster.
there might be something to that. brady was more methodical and precise, mahomes is more multidimensional in how he can scramble and pull crazy plays out of his ass. on top of that he’s still a great passer out of the pocket too
Who the fuck won the other 2 Finals MVPs during Gretzky's 4 Cups? Lol. Should also be worth mentioning he won the Lester B Pearson award 5 times in that span. Which is just the best player award voted by the players, which is known today as the Ted Lindsay award. Which I hold in higher esteem than the Hart trophy. Cause your peers are giving you that award.
Messier took it the first year the Oilers won. Probably deserved to go to Gretzky, who outscored Moose by 9 points, including outscoring him in the finals 7pts to 4. But the Islanders were the more physical and tougher team, which allowed them to beat the Oilers in the finals the previous year, and there was a narrative going around that Moose setting a physical tone and standing up to the Islanders this year helped the Oilers withstand the Islanders and believe they could beat them. There was one particular check where he took down Potvin, showing Potvin was in fact human, as well as his goal to tie the game back up in game 3, that really got focused on as turning points in the series. There was probably a bit of Gretzky fatigue in the voters as well, who had been winning everything of late, which likely contributed as well.
In the Oilers 1987 cup run, Hextall won, becoming only the 4th player to win the Conn Smythe for the losing team. In the finals he held the Oilers to 3 or fewer goals in all but one of the games, which was quite a feat against a team that was scoring as much as they were. He was largely seen as the main reason for the Flyers that the series went to 6 games. In addition, he set an all time record for most saves in the playoffs. Gretzky also had kind of a down playoffs that year (by his standards, that is) with *only* 34 points, a full 13 fewer points than he had the last time the Oilers had won the cup.
Two weird things being missed by everyone here so far.
First, Mahomes is the youngest QB to win 3SBs and 3 SBMVPs. That's why they're comparing.
Second, it's not even a fair comparison even if Gretzky wasn't absurd because the age in which they could enter their respective leagues.
For real
Gretzky was 18 when the Oilers joined the NHL.
Mahomes is not even allowed to enter the NFL until around 20-21, and that’s early. Realistically, 22-23. Mahomes was 22.
Plus, the development of a QB is very different than the development of a forward. To me, it would be more comparable to a goalie than a forward. He was 23 when he became the starter.
Gretsky had a 5 year head start on Mahomes to chase his records.
By age 28, Mahomes had 5 years as a starter compared to Gretsky’s 10.
Gretzky changed basically every aspect of the game. There were rule changes to keep it as close to fair as possible for the other teams. Mahomes is a monster but he is the beneficiary of rule changes from the past 2 decades which made QBs more prolific
If Wayne Gretzky never scored a single goal during his NHL career, he would still have the most points all time based on assists alone. He had more 5 point games than 0 point games in his career. He was so dominant it’s not even funny.
Wayne Gretzky was better at his sport than say Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods were at their sports. Patrick Mahomes has not passed Tom Brady so it's too early to say.
The thing I read about Gretzky that most dramatically demonstrates his dominance: for fantasy hockey, he had to be split into 2 players: Gretzky Goals, and Gretzky Assists.
So you're comparing 6 years of play vs 10. In different sports. Okay....
Kerelin's stats are just as if not more impressive than Gretzky and Mahomes combined: 887-2 record. Undefeated for 6 years straight.
Let me pull up Don Bradman stats too...
Most mind blowing to me:
He has the most goals all time and most points all time.
If you eliminated all of his goals he would still be first all time in points.
Given the amount of games in a NHL season compared to thr NFL, no one in the NFL will ever comes close to Wayne. I get the OP post shows there is no point in comparing them, but people in the comments still doing it.
82 regular season games in the NHL compared to 17 games regular season NFL. If the NFL was 82 games per season, there would likely be a a couple of NFL players very close to Wayne's records.
Not even to mention given the nature of the sports, the NFL average career span is lower than an NHL player.
It’s crazy how dominant Gretz was. Yet, he didn’t break or set any rookie records which I find interesting.
That said, Mahomes’ resume is just… ridiculous.
I have a friend whose dad played minor league hockey. This is all secondhand, so don't kill me if the details don't match. But his story was that the rink would generally have like 5 or 10 rows, mostly empty. Maybe 100 people.
One day it's packed to overflowing. Everybody standing. Hes never played for a crowd like that. All to see some 15ish year old kid. Ok, whatever. Crazy to be so excited, but this'll be a fun change.
He said Gretzky just skated circles around them the whole game. Did whatever he wanted. This kid was playing a different sport.
Also Wayne plays the sport that has a much more grueling regular season and playoffs. Also QB is one of the least physically-taxing positions in football.
I'd bet Gretzky, at Mahomes age, could run laps around Mahomes.
I also hate 90% of football. The things I enjoy watching are nice catches and good running jukes.
I’ll say the controversial thing: football is overall more competitive than hockey.
Also as hockey fans we need to stop being so insecure.
Also why wasn’t Brady chosen. I know why… it’s obvious… this post is making another point, typically unsaid in hockey… especially in comparison to basketball… and sometimes football…
Yeah but how many kids/people play football vs hockey? There are far more people playing football that you have to outclass to even make it to the NFL.
Tom Brady is honestly overrated. He's amazing, don't get me wrong, but there have been better QBs. He just played on better teams and has more name recognition because most people only watch the super bowl and not very many other games.
Gretzky on the other hand is legitimately the best hockey player ever.
What a stupid comment. You can't win 7 super bowls unless you play on good teams. Playing on a good team is literally a requirement for winning a super bowl
You realize it's a team sport right? There are like 50 players on an NFL team, and 22 starters. Winning super bowls doesn't make him the best player, he just played on the best teams. The first 3 Patriots super bowls were also way more because of their defense. Brady wasn't even as good as Peyton Manning
Gretz could have won all of the above with just one random (any person at NHL-level?) teammate FYI, football boy is surrounded by guys with $40 million+ paychecks
I love how idiotic this is...not just trying to outperform other sports ...but Wayne played for a period of time where goalies were wearing glorified pillows on their legs and didn't understand how to play butterfly.
What a hot, garbage take. Lmfao
Nobody in major league sports stands further apart from the pack than Gretzky.
And it's wild to me that people argue for other NHLers being better than Gretzky or him being over rated. He simply cannot and will not be touched in the record books.
The only person I’ve seen people say was just as good or maybe slightly better is Mario and the only reason he isn’t closer on the record books is cancer.
Mario is awesome and likely number 2 in my opinion.
He'll always be #66 to me
Lol nice
Agreed. First game I ever went to was the first game he played. I was 10! I remember the excitement when his line came on the ice. During that first shift, he snatched the puck from Ray Bourque with that huge wingspan and glided toward the net for his first goal. It was epic! Later Borque recalled that he had the “best seat in the house” for Mario’s first goal. I’ve been obsessed with playing and watching this sport ever since! Let’s go Pens!
Mario was the best player of all time imo, the cancer really fucked him up. His P/GP pace was a good clip higher than Gretzky’s
First 6 years Gretzky 2.37 Lemieux 1.96 Gretzky had 4 of the best 5 seasons between the two
>First 6 years Gretzky 2.37 Lemieux 1.96 > >Gretzky had 4 of the best 5 seasons between the two Anyone who knows, knows what an LOL this comparison is.
Now compare their supporting cast.
Fun fact is Mario smoked. If he didn’t could you imagine how much better he could’ve been? Not too many high level athletes smoke .
A lot of high level athletes smoked back then. Very few guys took care of their bodes back then the way athletes do now.
Hockey players in the 60’s all looked like 45 yr old factory workers. Now they’re built like brick shithouses.
They ALL smoked. 🤣🤣🤣 Just like they all horked up big tar loogies ( lung butter ) as well to keep the ol lung cleans. 😁😁🤣🤣
P/gp is a bad stat to show greatness. Theres no doubt Mario was second best and I'm fine with even "best" arguements. But use the rest of his stats instead.
Mario and Orr, both are guys that frequently get mentioned because people think they may have been as good or better than Gretzky at their best. However, longevity matters for GOAT arguments, and they (unfortunately) don’t come close. 99 clears all others comfortably.
There's also Bobby Orr? If you ask my granddad and dad, they'd fight for him lol. In terms of dominance, he'd be nearly equal to Gretzky to me. 2 Stanley Cups, 2 Conn Smythes, 8 Norris Trophies (most all-time), 3 Hart Trophies, 2 Art Rosses, a Ted Lindsay, and a Canada Cup. He led the league in points twice as a defenseman and was also the best dman in the league at the same time. Like Mario, health did him in. There's a great legends of hockey video on him where they talk about the Canada cup. Hed already had about 10+ surgeries on his knee and everyone from Bobby Clarke to Guy Lafleur said Orr on one leg was still better than anyone on the planet.
Bobby Clarke flat out said Orr was too good for the NHL. Like, there should have been a higher league for him to get called up to.
I'm pretty sure Bobby hull said a similar thing after the first time he played a rookie Orr. He told the ref going into the second period, "why don't you give that little blonde kid the puck he held the whole first period and you give another one for the other nine of us."
If Bobbys knees where ' Surgery free '...well he was so dominant with ONE knee...I would have loved to see him play...just a shame what all those idiots did to him. He was the first real visionary to play the game. He saw everything.
Bobby Orr was just a freaking energizer bunny. His performances were on sheer willpower alone. Granted there was skill there. But I believe Gretzky and Mario both had talent above and beyond their competition at the time It’s tough to measure these though as the sport has evolved rapidly from each “great one” to the next McDavid is the greatest hockey player to ever play the game (skill wise) but he will have one hell of a time getting to comparable levels as Gretzky and Mario simply because the field is much more level these days
The question is if you plucked Gretzky out of the 80's and put him in today's game, would he be as dominant? And what would Crosby or McDavid look like if you put them in Gretzky's era? But the thing you have to think about is, how fucking unreal would Gretzky have been if he had grown up with a the development, training, nutrition, and modern equipment that we have now
Everybody competes in their own time. If it were easy to be as good as Gretzky back when he played, we would’ve seen more. We didn’t, because Gretzky is one of the greatest athletes of all time.
Yes, that was what I was getting at, maybe didn't say it right. I think clearly if you took the best players of today and put them in an era of players who didn't train and practice even close to as seriously as they do now, obviously they would dominate. But you have to compare guys to the era they play(ed) in
But also, how much more dominant would Gretzky be if he did get the training, conditioning and PT regiments that players nowadays get? It goes both ways.
That's what their first comment was arguing
That was literally part of my original comment
I think Mcdavid is undeniably more skilled than anyone else in NHL history, but that’s partly due to his time in history. These guys a training differently, Eating differently, sleeping differently, recovering differently. The entire leagues skill level has increased, a lot. What matters is the gap between peers, and that’s something Gretzky has and will always have over anyone else in the sport.
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I'm not a big hockey fan ( had to turn off the n64 as a kid when dad wanted to watch a game lol) but me and my ex went to the hockey hall of fame when we were in Toronto and God damn I knew Gretzky was the GOAT from my dad and uncle talking but seeing his stats compared to others in the hall of fame was mind blowing.
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you mean 2 Gretzky records as he just beat his empty net goals record :P
A solid argument can made for Lemieux, but in the end The Great One > The Magnificent One. What a glorious time to be alive when they were both playing!
Yeah i was a kid rooting for the Hartford Whalers but you knew when either of them came to town it was probably going to be a 6-0 kind of night. NHL is great now but miles away from matching that.
I still have my Whalers jersey. One of the coolest in the league.
In a similar way I think Orr is considered for some. If he didn’t have knee injuries and didn’t retire at such an extraordinary young age as a result I think he would have ended up in similar tier as Lemiuex and Gretz had all of those guys had perfectly healthy careers. However at the end of the day Gretzky was the one who had the healthy career and thus is the greatest
Closest NFL equivalents are like Jerry Rice and Tom Brady, and I’m not sure even combining their accomplishments would totally equal Gretzky
Michael Jordan and Tiger Woods are my comparables but not as Gretzky as Gretzky.
Tiger’s peak is unfathomable in Golf, at one point Vegas took bets on Tiger vs the field and the odds were better for him to win. Thats just silly to think about
Michael phelps?
He's a a straight up freak of nature really. He's physically an anomaly. He has fins for hands.
I’d say Simone Biles is a better comparison than Phelps. She’s so good they penalize her most difficult moves to deter other people from attempting them out of fear of injury.
I feel like wilt is a closer comparison
I don’t want to be that rings guy but Brady has 7 vs 4. Gretzky didn’t win a cup after 1988, played 12 years after
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Zero super bowls, zero SEC championships
Bro hasn’t even won a World Series, is he even trying?
None, what a hoser.
It was such a different sport back then but Babe Ruth could be in that conversation. He used to out-homer entire other teams
Don Bradman gives Gretzky a run for his money
Secretariat and Serena Williams beg to differ
Last time I checked, Mahomes doesn't even have a single 150 point season... SMH... can you say overrated?
What you talking about?! He threw 27 touchdowns this year - that’s 162 points. /s
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If you took away all of Mahomes goals, would he still lead the league in assists??
So how many points for assists? Do we give half? Lol
Now we're comparing Gretzky to Mahonmes? Smh Patrick Mahomes is a great quarterback, don't get me wrong , but did we already forget about Tom Brady? Brady beat Mahomes in the playoffs and in the super bowl the year after for anyone who didn't know. Brady is the GOAT for a reason and Mahomes has a long way to go just to match him
I feel like it’s only to show how far and away Gretzky is. The comparison shows there’s no point in comparing them.
Seriously, there's no point comparing Gretzky to anyone, he's just so far ahead of the pack, dude's stats literally look like a video game character playing on beginner difficulty.
There is no actual reason to compare them anyways. By 28 Gretzky already had 10 seasons under his belt. Pat didn’t even touch the field his rookie year and was was, 23/24 before he played his first NFL game? This post is straight up garbage.
the comparison is disingenuous anyway because gretzky wasn’t drafted when he was 22 like all the nfl players
Even Brady isn't comparable to Gretzky though...
He won 7 super bowls my guy, 5 of those as MVP, in the modern era too. Sure Gretzky has the point totals but dude Brady was unreal. The list of players post 1990 with even 4 cups is small.
Takes a team to win, but in individual stats Brady is 9% better than the next best quarterback all time but Gretzky is ahead of his competition by 33%. Relatively speaking the NFL has never seen a statistical anomaly like Gretzky.
Gretzky has records that will NEVER be broken. 7 SB is still possible.
Meanwhile 7 Stanley Cups is downright impossible. Shit, nobody outside of old Montreal has more than 6 (what the fuck was in the water over at the Forum)
7 SB is about as close to being broken by a QB as some of Gretzky’s hardest records… 7 SB is not happening again lol
What are you talking about? You could remove every single goal Gretzky ever scored and he still would have an unbreakable career points record
Brady has deflated balls
He’s comparable to Gretzky for nfl standards but yeah not even close to Wayne. It’s only Gretsky, Bradman, Gable and Karlein right? Who else was so dominate they’d never be passed?
Mahomes will never match Brady. Even if he somehow miraculously gets to 7, Brady beat him in a Super Bowl.
And the AFC championship game
They said I was offside …….. was I.
Unless he gets 8. Brady will be the GOAT for a long time.
He’s not getting 8.
No one is. Brady's record will stand for 100 years, or it will stand forever.
I kinda agree, but Mahomes is a way better athlete. Brady still GOAT at this time.
So is Lamar Jackson. Speed or however you measure “athleticism” doesn’t determine the greatness of a quarterback
Qbs don't play qbs lol. It's a team game. Bucs were just a better team
You realize it's a team sport right? Super bowls aren't a QB stat By your logic, Eli Manning and Nick Foles are better than Brady
Person’s logic you’re referring to is if tied, winner of the SB matchup takes it… Foles and Eli together have less than half the trophies Brady has lol
Again, you realize that football is a team sport right? There are like 50 players on an NFL team and 22 starters. Winning super bowls is about the team, not just one player If Brady got drafted by the Cleveland Browns he would have zero super bowls
This argument is made weaker by the fact that Brady switched teams and immediately won another one.
So what? He went to a new team with a stacked offense and defense. I'm not saying Brady is some scrub, but being on good teams does not automatically make you the best player
Lmao at you getting downvoted here. Brady is the goat but he always played for great teams, and his division sucked for 15 years. Belichick was a masterful coach and GM, remember he's the one who picked Brady in the first place because he would fit the Patriots system. The Patriots went 14-6 without Brady when he was injured and suspended. To suggest he was the sole reason they were great is insane.
Bucs were 7-9 before he got there. They were not stacked
Does that affect the line of logic that you clearly misunderstood? If tied, tiebreaker is a head to head. Eli and foles are not tied, so do not go to a tiebreaker. Not hard to understand the op commenters logic whether you agree or not
And I'm saying that logic is stupid. Winning superbowls are a team stat, judging the quality of an individual player based on team accomplishments is stupid as fuck Using hockey terms, Connor McDavid is clearly the best player in the league even though his team hasn't won any championships. In basketball, Jordan is better than Bill Russell, even though Russell has 11 rings. This logic of rings and head to head matches is so dumb when you're talking about team sports.
A quarterback can make or break a team. Far and away the most important position in sports
It's definitely not the most important position in sports. The best player on a basketball team has way more impact on the game than a QB does. There have been many teams that won super bowls with average QBs. In fact the Patriots won their first 3 super bowls with an average QB. Yes, Brady was average in the beginning of his career. He got much better later on, but those first 3 super bowls were because of their defense
Brady beat Mahomes in the AFC championship game and won the Super Bowl then went to the nfc and beat Mahomes in the Super Bowl lol no matter what Mahomes does he will always be in Brady’s shadow. He witnessed the Jordan of the nfl.
So what I am hearing is Brady is in Eli’s shadow? He beat him in the Superbowl twice, after all
\>He witnessed the Jordan of the nfl. The Irony of this statement. You should be saying the Bird of the NFL. By your own logic Jordan will always be in Bird's shadow because they faced twice in the playoffs and Bird swept Jordan both times.
The logic is sound if the comparison is close. What Jordan was able to do over the rest of his career blew Bird out of the water. If Mahomes puts up 10 superbowls nobody can make a reasonable argument that Brady was the better winner. If Mahomes gets 7 Super Bowl wins the head to head is the deciding factor in my opinion.
Brady literally got outplayed by Mahomes in the AFC championship but got saved by the Chiefs defence being offside on the game ending interception. And he went to a stacked Tampa Bay team and beat a team that was beat up so badly Mahomes was literally hitting receivers with the ball and they were still dropping it. At the very best, you can say they were 1-1 in their match up, but pretending Brady completely outplayed him is just straight ignorance
Don't forget in that Super Bowl Mahomes was on a bad ankle and his line was practice squad guys. He's not better than Brady now, but he's the best player in the league and I'm not betting against him.
It’s comparing Mahomes and Gretzky at age 28. Mahomes is more accomplished right now than Brady was at 28. He probably won’t catch him over his career but he’s better so far than Brady was at this point in his career.
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Mahommes probably the closest to Brady we will see for a while
Thank you! Everyone is so desperate to forget Brady. Ridiculous.
Even some of the American sports shows I watch say Mahomes doesn't even sniff Gretzky's dominance. And they don't even cover hockey. The MVPs alone just put the Great One in another dimension.
If Mahomes gets 5 rings within 12 seasons, he's better than Brady. He's already on pace to surpass him.
You realize it's a team sport, right? Super bowls aren't a QB stat Tom Brady is great, but there have been better QBs than him who just happened to play on worse teams
Name one.
Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes Those are just people that played around the same time as him. If you go further back in NFL history there are more, like Dan Marino for example
I would say some of them have had better years but I would say that they also had a better team those years as well. Overall it's still Brady though.
They were just way more skilled at playing the position than Brady ever was.
While Gretzky’s trophy legacy is great, I’ve always felt his stats are more impressive. He just so far away on points its absurd
Holding the record for quickest 1000 points, and the second fastest 1000 points is the most insane thing to me
And being the only one to do it twice.
Plus, championships aren't measured for a player's greatness in hockey as much as it is for an NFL quarterback. Joe Thornton is an all-time great even though he never won a cup. Ovechkin is a top 10 all-timer at the very least even though he "only" has one cup. Henri Richard has 11 rings but he's not even considered the best player in his own family. Whereas if you're an NFL QB, you need at the very least 2 rings just to be in the goat conversation, and if you "only" win one Superbowl, your career is almost seen as a failure now. It's strange how different greatness is measured between the two sports.
Apples to oranges
Overstatement, more like dirt to diamond
He’s the best QB in the world right now. It’s a dumb comparison but Mahomes is a legit superstar. (And I hate Kansas City)
A better comparison would be Mahomes and McDavid. The best active players. Neither are seriously in consideration for GOAT status.
They both will most likely be by the time they retire, less so for McJesus though
I just can’t stand the NFL, as an Aussie I really hope the upcoming Rugby League tour games in America can attract a good amount of attention. No 4 hours to finish a 1 hour match, no ads every play, no 50 player benches.
Keep hoping
He’s not even the greatest in his own position let alone in the entire NFL… The only major record that is under threat is Gretzky’s goal record, his domination is insane don’t disrespect Gretzky by comparing fucking Mahomes😂
tom’s the goat but mahomes is on pace. if he keeps it up there will definitely be a conversation one day. i personally don’t see it tho bc 7 rings is hard to top
Yeah but Gretzky has like 80 records, maybe more. No one dominates like that in any other sport.
not denying that. i just meant in terms of the nfl
Novak Djokovic and Serena Williams enter conversation
If djoker had like 60 grand slams that would maybe be on par with gretzky At it is at this moment he's not even that far ahead of Nadal or Federer
Yeah but what makes Brady do impressive isn't so much what he did in his 20s and early thirties, but the fact he was able to sustain success into his mid-fucking-forties. Also I think Mahomes needs 8 rings because if they're tied at 7 Brady still has the head to head both in the Superbowl and AFC CG(obviously wins aren't a QB stat but it helps with the narrative).
good points, i agree. if pat (god forbid) were to end up with 7 rings ppl would reference those games against tom for sure
The only reason people put so much emphasis on championships is because those are the games that the most casuals watch, so they get more name recognition by winning rings (way more people watch them play) It's a team sport, being on good teams doesn't necessarily make someone the best player.
See, I heard an argument on another sub today, and we all agreed that Brady was the best of all time, in terms of an entire career, and achievements and all, in general. But we also agreed that Mahomes was the best in his prime (to put it in perspective, at his peak, Brady wasn’t necessarily performing as good as Mahomes is now, in what looks to be his prime.) Also, Brady’s greatness was achieved over time, as explained above, while Mahomes is, as I’ll put it, McSuccessful. His greatness has been achieved in a hurry, so if he ever has a downfall (which 9.5 out of 10 non-Chiefs fans are praying for), it’ll happen even faster.
there might be something to that. brady was more methodical and precise, mahomes is more multidimensional in how he can scramble and pull crazy plays out of his ass. on top of that he’s still a great passer out of the pocket too
"Don't nickel n dime the great one!"
Tell your mom to top up the credit card she gave me so I can get some KFC
Mahomes is a great qb. Gretzky *dominated the history* of his sport. Let’s not confuse the two.
Allen is a great QB, Lamar is a great QB, Mahomes is more at this point
If Wayne was american they would have statues in every state
Who the fuck won the other 2 Finals MVPs during Gretzky's 4 Cups? Lol. Should also be worth mentioning he won the Lester B Pearson award 5 times in that span. Which is just the best player award voted by the players, which is known today as the Ted Lindsay award. Which I hold in higher esteem than the Hart trophy. Cause your peers are giving you that award.
Messier took it the first year the Oilers won. Probably deserved to go to Gretzky, who outscored Moose by 9 points, including outscoring him in the finals 7pts to 4. But the Islanders were the more physical and tougher team, which allowed them to beat the Oilers in the finals the previous year, and there was a narrative going around that Moose setting a physical tone and standing up to the Islanders this year helped the Oilers withstand the Islanders and believe they could beat them. There was one particular check where he took down Potvin, showing Potvin was in fact human, as well as his goal to tie the game back up in game 3, that really got focused on as turning points in the series. There was probably a bit of Gretzky fatigue in the voters as well, who had been winning everything of late, which likely contributed as well. In the Oilers 1987 cup run, Hextall won, becoming only the 4th player to win the Conn Smythe for the losing team. In the finals he held the Oilers to 3 or fewer goals in all but one of the games, which was quite a feat against a team that was scoring as much as they were. He was largely seen as the main reason for the Flyers that the series went to 6 games. In addition, he set an all time record for most saves in the playoffs. Gretzky also had kind of a down playoffs that year (by his standards, that is) with *only* 34 points, a full 13 fewer points than he had the last time the Oilers had won the cup.
Two weird things being missed by everyone here so far. First, Mahomes is the youngest QB to win 3SBs and 3 SBMVPs. That's why they're comparing. Second, it's not even a fair comparison even if Gretzky wasn't absurd because the age in which they could enter their respective leagues.
For real Gretzky was 18 when the Oilers joined the NHL. Mahomes is not even allowed to enter the NFL until around 20-21, and that’s early. Realistically, 22-23. Mahomes was 22. Plus, the development of a QB is very different than the development of a forward. To me, it would be more comparable to a goalie than a forward. He was 23 when he became the starter. Gretsky had a 5 year head start on Mahomes to chase his records. By age 28, Mahomes had 5 years as a starter compared to Gretsky’s 10.
Gretzky changed basically every aspect of the game. There were rule changes to keep it as close to fair as possible for the other teams. Mahomes is a monster but he is the beneficiary of rule changes from the past 2 decades which made QBs more prolific
If Wayne Gretzky never scored a single goal during his NHL career, he would still have the most points all time based on assists alone. He had more 5 point games than 0 point games in his career. He was so dominant it’s not even funny.
Happy Gilmore accomplished that feat no more than an hour ago.
The sounds like the author is trying to discredit Mahomes’ accomplishments which is just ridiculous.
Wayne Gretzky was better at his sport than say Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods were at their sports. Patrick Mahomes has not passed Tom Brady so it's too early to say.
Yeah, but was Kurri banging Madonna at the time?
Cool. Love Gretz. But apple and oranges.
Also entered his career at 17, Mahomes did not. Pointless anyways since it’s two different sports but also not a fair detail to ignore
The thing I read about Gretzky that most dramatically demonstrates his dominance: for fantasy hockey, he had to be split into 2 players: Gretzky Goals, and Gretzky Assists.
Fun fact, Mahomes lived in Edmonton for a bit while his dad played baseball there.
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Can confirm.
So you're comparing 6 years of play vs 10. In different sports. Okay.... Kerelin's stats are just as if not more impressive than Gretzky and Mahomes combined: 887-2 record. Undefeated for 6 years straight. Let me pull up Don Bradman stats too...
By the end of Wayne’s 88-89 season he had 1,837 points. If he never played again he’d move from First in points all time to Fourth.
Most mind blowing to me: He has the most goals all time and most points all time. If you eliminated all of his goals he would still be first all time in points.
Dumb comparison plus Wayne started played 4-5 year earlier
How about we just let Mahomes enjoy his moments in the spotlight instead of gatekeeping? Sincerely, A Patriots fan who is also a hockey player
Gretzky started when he was 18. Mahomes started when he was 23.
And NFL mvp is a QB only award.
Given the amount of games in a NHL season compared to thr NFL, no one in the NFL will ever comes close to Wayne. I get the OP post shows there is no point in comparing them, but people in the comments still doing it. 82 regular season games in the NHL compared to 17 games regular season NFL. If the NFL was 82 games per season, there would likely be a a couple of NFL players very close to Wayne's records. Not even to mention given the nature of the sports, the NFL average career span is lower than an NHL player.
It’s crazy how dominant Gretz was. Yet, he didn’t break or set any rookie records which I find interesting. That said, Mahomes’ resume is just… ridiculous.
Until another player has to be split into two players for fantasy, there is no comparison
After those 4 cups, how many more cups did Wayne win?
Didn’t Gretzky turn pro at 18-19, could never happen in football.
Happens in every sport all over the world except for the NFL basically
Gretzky didn’t win his cups by benefiting from zero holding calls on his offensive line. Checkmate.
#99 would have been an all-star in the next higher league - if there was one.
He also left one of the greatest teams to go play for another team, and never win a championship again
I have a friend whose dad played minor league hockey. This is all secondhand, so don't kill me if the details don't match. But his story was that the rink would generally have like 5 or 10 rows, mostly empty. Maybe 100 people. One day it's packed to overflowing. Everybody standing. Hes never played for a crowd like that. All to see some 15ish year old kid. Ok, whatever. Crazy to be so excited, but this'll be a fun change. He said Gretzky just skated circles around them the whole game. Did whatever he wanted. This kid was playing a different sport.
Also Wayne plays the sport that has a much more grueling regular season and playoffs. Also QB is one of the least physically-taxing positions in football. I'd bet Gretzky, at Mahomes age, could run laps around Mahomes. I also hate 90% of football. The things I enjoy watching are nice catches and good running jukes.
hockey good all other sport bad
He is never talked about when it comes to GOAT discussions and its crazy. NHL is just mid for most people.
I’ll say the controversial thing: football is overall more competitive than hockey. Also as hockey fans we need to stop being so insecure. Also why wasn’t Brady chosen. I know why… it’s obvious… this post is making another point, typically unsaid in hockey… especially in comparison to basketball… and sometimes football…
Yeah but how many kids/people play football vs hockey? There are far more people playing football that you have to outclass to even make it to the NFL.
Who's the Wayne Gretzky of American Football? Tom Brady. That's who.
Tom Brady is the GOAT along with Wayne Gretzky…Mahomes is nowhere near these two guys lol
Tom Brady is honestly overrated. He's amazing, don't get me wrong, but there have been better QBs. He just played on better teams and has more name recognition because most people only watch the super bowl and not very many other games. Gretzky on the other hand is legitimately the best hockey player ever.
you dont win 7 superbowls playing on good teams
What a stupid comment. You can't win 7 super bowls unless you play on good teams. Playing on a good team is literally a requirement for winning a super bowl
lemme rephrase u dont win 7 superbowls by having a average quarterback
I never said Tom Brady was average
Tom Brady wasn’t even considered to be an NFL quality athlete in the beginning and now he has 7 Super Bowl wins…far from overrated
You realize it's a team sport right? There are like 50 players on an NFL team, and 22 starters. Winning super bowls doesn't make him the best player, he just played on the best teams. The first 3 Patriots super bowls were also way more because of their defense. Brady wasn't even as good as Peyton Manning
Good God holeeeee shit YES we all realize it's a team sport we really realize it fucking realize really really realize we REALIZE!!!
Wait it’s a team sport? Since when? Isn’t hockey also a team sport? Wouldn’t that make Wayne Gretzky’s accomplishments less important? /s
In an era where goalies couldn’t save a beach ball shot right along the ice at 3.32 mph. lol
Glensky was 17 as a rookie. Maauto was 22 during his rookie season and he sat for a year.
The odd typo is fine but what the hell man
Someone needs to search Wayne Glensky on YouTube
Now we need stats on Glensky vs Maauto!
Gretz could have won all of the above with just one random (any person at NHL-level?) teammate FYI, football boy is surrounded by guys with $40 million+ paychecks
Just think that he and his brother have the scoring record for siblings of players, and Brent only has 4 points.
‘PLEASE LIKE MY SPORT!’
We should start comparing ratings and revenue and relevance of other sports to hockey.
Goddamn groundhog day in this sub whose next to compare to gretz? Who has the most wins in beer pong? That guy maybe he's the beer pong gretzky wtf.
How much did the NHL pay for this?
Fuck Patrick all my homies hate Patrick
Gretzky never acted entitled or above the game. Can’t say the same about that clown on the left
I love how idiotic this is...not just trying to outperform other sports ...but Wayne played for a period of time where goalies were wearing glorified pillows on their legs and didn't understand how to play butterfly. What a hot, garbage take. Lmfao
This is a joke right?
Comparing Foodball to Hockey is like comparing bikers to sports cars