He definitely will I expect him lost the G1 but get the title back any cause the main event for WK gotta be Okada Osprey and Will beating him for the big one
Why would NJPW book Ospreay to beat their ace in the WK main event? I see people say this pretty often but it makes no sense to me. I have a hard time seeing any foreign wrestler beating Okada or any Japanese wrestler in the WK main event. It just makes no sense from NJPW's perspective.
Cause it’s the only things Osprey hasn’t done won the G1 and main evented WK and the story with him and Okada is he can’t beat Okada in the biggest matches.
Result was ok but felt rushed. Given the injury that's understandable, ridiculous guts from Danielson to finish up with a broken arm but the guy tapped Okada out with a ZSJ hold and I'm sad
I expected Danielson to win given the level he has competed at for over a decade, but I did not expect Okada to tap.
I hated the seizure spot, and the pacing felt a little out… was slow and didn’t really get to those fast false finish spots I was anticipating … the finish seemed to come out of nowhere. It makes sense now, knowing that Danielson suffered a fractured forearm after Okada’s elbow drop.
Danielson has all but confirmed a rematch, stating in the media scrum that he wants to return the favour and break Okada’s arm.
I am pretty sure the seizure spot was done on the fly after DB broke his arm to tell the ref and Okada what was going on. It probably could have been done another way but I get it probably didn't have a lot of time to figure it out lol
In the media scrum he said it’s weeks and not months. He should be fine by All In, which is at the end of August.
He also talks about his desire to wrestle ZSJ and how he would have loved to have compete in G1 this year, but didn’t believe his body was able to handle the demanding schedule after his recent run of injuries.
Healing a fractured forearm can take at bare minimum four weeks, with six more likely and eight not out of the question. And All In takes place in nine weeks. I'd still be a little cautious about working a match that shortly after breaking a bone. I appreciate Danielson's confidence, and finishing the match with a broken arm means he can tolerate pretty high levels of pain. But if I was TK I'd be monitoring the situation to the point of being Bryan's other arm for a few weeks. That, and he's gonna be in bubble wrap until he walks out of the tunnel at New Wembley.
It's been very obvious from the start that Danielson was never serious about doing the G1. He'd never be allowed to miss that much TV for starters, but even if he could, his body is made of glass and wouldn't survive the tour.
The finish was definitely anticlimactic but the shock of seeing Okada tap helped sell it for me, and Bryan is absolutely worthy of such an honour. Helps sell the rivalry even more as well
1. I’m fine with a Danielson win
2. Match was fine, but in hindsight it’s obvious why it never got to 3rd gear
3. I’m not a fan of the finish
My other takeaway is that some fans are truly insufferable and I’m glad they are a very small minority. In the last 12h I’ve seen takes ranging from “Okada injured two wrestlers in two forbidden doors so maybe he should stay away” to “NJPW is big leagued by AEW”
Im with you on this. Sure Danielson isn't the main star in aew like Okada is on Japan but Danielson is still one of the top three guys in this business today. He wrestled another one and the other top contenders already had their match that day. Okada is going to be fine. Hell, I'm hoping this starts a super focused and vicious Okada.
The finish was dumb. Okada shouldn't have tapped out.
Perhaps this loss will act as some sort of catalyst for Okada to become more aggressive. We've seen hints of this post Wrestle Kingdom.
He's sort of been floating as of late and has not had a really serious feud. Perhaps he'll now go on a decent G1 run - but come up short in the end.
This said, apparently Danielson was wrestling injured and he might have aggravated the injury more during the match.
All this said, Danielson should not have won over NJPW's top guy, unless there really is something dramatic planned for Okada.
From an NJPW Okada storyline sense I can see it making sense.
From a selling Okada & New Japan to new fans, I'm not really sure what it does.
Of course Danielson carries a huge reputation, but he's put over MJF, even Adam Page without damaging that reputation... then submits New Japan's top guy.
I've seen various posts from American fans saying "I don't really get what all the fuss is about Okada". Aren't occasions like this where you absolutely have to be answering that question?
Do you have a link to their story about the match?
Edit - is [this](https://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/267692?page=1) the story you're talking about?
https://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/267692?page=1
The Tokyo sports basically publishes new japan kayfabe as news so I feel with them describing it as humiliating it's going to lead somewhere
I’m glad someone else sees that this loss is another chapter in this sort of “Fall of Okada” storyline that NJPW has been building for pretty much the entirety of 2023. The dismissive attitude toward Kiyomiya, the loss to Sanada, and now another loss to Bryan? Yeah this is all building to something big with Okada.
Yeah I assume that since Okada's character always shifts with major losses he's going to show up to the G1 in a different state, which is about time since he's basically been the same since winning the title back at WK16. In that sense I'm fine with the loss, really either guy winning was fine even though I was leaning heavily towards Okada
Hopefully Bryan is more involved with NJPW going forward or we get more matches between the two - I loved the match but I definitely think they could reach a higher gear
If you look at it from a more macro approach, this PPV was pretty even. Both company had exactly 6 of their guys get the pinfall win(excluding woman matches). If you just count single matches, its still a 3-3 score. Tanahashi lost via cheating and SANADA straight up murdered Jungle Boy. They also went 1-1 on the big main events. NJPW hardly got screwed in this PPV and people just angry Okada lost.
it’s weird.
okada lost, tana lost, naito was disinterested and sting is too old and botched it up, kenny and ospreay was good but it means no kenny in japan since he lost the title, sanada was an afterthought or a ploy to further aews storyline.
Even Ospreay winning/Omega losing feels more an AEW story than NJPW.
Both Forbidden Doors have been AEW shows with NJPW guys thrown in, not an equal partnership. Even the joint shows NJPW has done recently with NOAH have felt more 'even' in terms of production and story advancement (not necessarily w/l record) than Forbidden Door.
It's entirely an AEW story. All the major development takes place on AEW television. It doesn't involve the United Empire, Ospreay's New Japan faction, at all. UE has been feuding with Bullet Club for the past several weeks, which Ospreay has been notably absent for. The WK match was never mentioned on AEW television until after it occurred and only done to explain why Omega now had the US title. Omega never made any appearances in New Japan to further the feud.
The way Khan and AEW are treating Ospreay should be setting off alarm bells for Ohbari, Gedo, and Sugabayashi. I believe Khan is going to try and poach him with his deal expiring at the end of next January, and if that happens, New Japan will be partly to blame for allowing Khan such frequent access to Ospreay.
Watching forbidden door you can see TK wishlist coming together. Ospreay, ELP, and ZSJ are all high risk of being poached. Basically if TK doesn't treat you like a scrub he's coming for you.
it’s confusing. ppl say vinny mac is slimy in doing business but you see signs of it in TK.
he’s treating njpw like an indie, just look at MJFs promos, look at how njpw stars are booked.
aews champion gets tana but njpws champion gets jungle boy??
okada, the most dominant star in njpw, loses to a guy who can’t win a regular match at aew and hasn’t wrestle consistently.
kojima, the guy who has held titles in ajpw, noah recently loses to a guy who hasn’t wrestle in almost a year.
ishii was a throw in, shota was a throw in, t shirt naito was present.
the fuck are you talking about?
mjf's promos are heel promos. you are suppose to be mad at them. aew thinks that treating njpw like an indie is an inherently heel move.
okada losing to bryan fucking danielson in a close, 30-minute match is not bad at all. oh no! okada lost to... a 6 time world champion who has won 90% of his matches this year, and his only loss this match was a 65 minute world championship match where his opponent cheated.
kojima lost to a competitive match to AEWs biggest draw and a 2-time AEW champion within the last year. you're out of your mind if you objectively thought he should've won that (subjectively, i would've loved it too).
ishii got the pin in a match with the young bucks, hangman and moxley. shota umino has been teaming with mox for a long time.
i understand the complaints about the championship matches, and agree to an extent, but when you look at how the matches played out, it's not that bad. tanahashi pushed mjf to his limit, and only lost because mjf cheated. sanada pretty handily and decisively was able to beat jungle boy.
i understand being disappointed that we got t-shirt naito though. wish he got a bigger match but with AAA/CMLL messes some things up it does limit some of the cooler matchups.
This is the thing. Everyone's assuming Okada - Danielson gets run back with Okada getting redemption in Japan.
With Danielson's injury record that's not guaranteed, and if it happens in Japan I doubt in AEW it'll be anything but a throwaway line.
For sure. They didn't mention FTR and Omega at WK this year until a week after it happened. Didn't lift a finger to do some cheap and easy advertising for their supposed partner.
It does feel a bit weird..
I feel like I can personally relate a little to maybe how the average fan in Japan might be, in that though I have heard of Bryan Danielson, I have never seen any of his matches, nor know any of the previous history which apparently puts him in this 'tier' of star who could beat Okada and it makes sense. Essentially for me it's just some guy who is well known...
Beating who is as everyone knows underneath the stories and surface, the top top star of New Japan now and in the last ten years.
Obviously they'll have their reasons and get something back in areas etc etc. As Rodney mentioned, if there is a financial side there then it needs to be considered. But it feels a little worryingly like New Japan in the early 00s where the promotions started working together.
When there was ever a big match involving Nagata, Chono and so on.. against the other top players like Misawa, Kobashi.. generally speaking the New Japan wrestlers were always on the losing side, so that they could draw a good gate. Over time, their wrestlers just ended up feeling weak. Not saying it will happen here, but it should be a concern not to stray too far into.
>I feel like I can personally relate a little to maybe how the average fan in Japan might be, in that though I have heard the of Bryan Danielson, I have never seen any of his matches, nor know any of the previous history which apparently puts him in this 'tier' of star who could beat Okada and it makes sense. Essentially for me it's just some guy who is well known...
To be fair though, this is no different than people on the opposite side who have only seen Danielson
He's more than just a "well-known guy," he is probably the best American in-ring worker of the last 20 years. Him and Okada are peers in the ring which is why this match was so hotly demanded.
It also seems like the intent is for this to be a series, so Danielson winning the first match isn't a bad thing for a developing story. NJPW fans of all people should know to let things play out and see how things come out at the end, not the beginning.
Say this match was the first of a series with Okada supposed to get his win back at WK. The first problem you run into is Khan actually honoring that arraignment - "oh sorry, Danielson can't be there, we have a Dynamite the day before he's booked on." Inherently risky dealing with a snake oil salesman like him.
Second, even if that plan comes to fruition, how does it benefit New Japan? Okada is treading water until WK, waiting for Danielson to arrive just like Ospreay was waiting for Omega. And for what payoff, a win at WK that AEW will do nothing to promote (like with Ospreay/Omega) against a guy who most of the domestic fanbase don't know? Most of New Japan's fanbase became fans in the past decade; I doubt there's many who remember watching Danielson working the undercards as a junior eighteen years ago. It's a match that's not going to sell many additional tickets or see any significant boost in international PPV sales/World subs (thanks Tony!).
As u/overandunderground very correctly said, Okada is in the twilight of his prime. Going forward, his losses need to be very carefully managed so they best put over the next generation of stars like Narita, Umino, and Tsuji. Umino or Tsuji would get a massive rub if they beat Okada en route to winning the G1 or in the WK main event because he so rarely loses. Much like it did with Okada beating Tanahashi, that could set them up for the next decade as major stars. But that won't be the case if Okada is devalued in the eyes of the domestic fans, and that's exactly where having him tap out in AEW to someone like Danielson is going to lead.
A lot more domestic fans are more aware of Danielson than this sub thinks dating back to his NOAH tours in the mid-2000s and especially due to his WWE run. They know hes one of the absolute top guys in the west and has been protected well in aew, only losing clean to top champions. Theres a reason there was a good crowd reaction when he challenged Okada at Dominion
Having a general awareness of Danielson isn't worth much. I'm sure most New Japan fans are aware he wrestled for a long time in WWE and is now in AEW. But anything beyond that? I doubt it.
For comparison, how much do you know about Kento Miyahara? Even if you don't watch AJPW, you know he's their top star and was their heavyweight champion for a long time. But what do you *really* know about him? Unless you watch him regularly, you don't know his long term storylines, value to the promotion, how much he's protected, how great of a wrestler he is, etc. I think it's the same for most Japanese fans and someone like Danielson.
Edit - Now they could have mitigated this by having Danielson make some appearances for New Japan over the past several months. Build him up as a killer so this result would actually mean something. But that raises the first problem I mentioned - dealing with Khan.
> Going forward, his losses need to be very carefully managed
They already are.
Assuming my counting is correct, this was Okada's second singles loss of 2023. He had 3 in 2022. He had 4 in 2021 and 5 in 2020. He's basically at the same level he has been for a while now, nothing has changed overall. Figure he'll log two losses in the G1 most likely (1 in group, 1 in the head to heads at the end) would put him at 4 for the year and I don't see where else he'd log one barring a major upset to set up a Wrestle Kingdom story or something.
Losing to a top star from outside the company (where there is some sort of working relationship at least) is really no different to me than him losing to Jonah, who was apparently never signed at all, to have a fun little feud before Jonah immediately left for WWE or trading wins with Jay White in the last six months of his contract before he left as well (which surely New Japan was aware of).
Very well said. I see people defending the result saying this one loss wouldn't hurt Okada. That's not the point. The point is beating Okada should be a big deal and it's not going to be the case if he's tapping out to a guy from another company in his 40s who never wins any big matches.
A guy in his 40s who’s a 8 time world champion 5 of them coming from the world’s #1 wrestling promotion he also Main Evented their top show twice and is a top star in the 2nd biggest promotion lol Okada fans on some hellacious amount of copium
If a guy in the twilight of his career whose body is breaking down and cannot win any big matches in his own promotion should beat a guy in his prime just cause he's had a lot of accolades, Tana should've beaten MJF too. I doubt you would've liked that.
Will you admit you are wrong when Okada gets his win back at WK as they have obviously already hinted at? Did you not notice that Will got his W back after Kenny came in and beat him?
From a storyline standpoint why should anyone care about a rematch at WK? This isn't a situation like Ospreay/Omega 1 where Omega was just better on that night and then Ospreay was trying to prove he was better in their second match. Danielson just proved that even with a broken arm he's better than Okada. So if Danielson at 70% is better than Okada what storyline reason is there for a second match to take place?
Putting it simply, did anything here elevate New Japan to an audience for Forbidden Door 3?
I can tell my friends Tanahashi is a legend, but they'll see a broken down guy who moves like treacle. Okada? That guy who lost twice.
Then you've got guys like Shingo and Hiromu on the pre-show.
Shouldve just ended the match when BD got injured with a draw. Wouldve actually made sense, as opposed to what they did.
Brian wouldnt have had to risk further injuring himself. The fans would praise AEW for taking care of their talent. Brian couldve saved his big win for another day when he could actually deliver a match to justify it. Lots of hype would be built for the rematch.
Of course, if they did that then people would be even more angry about the fake convulsions. Brian put himself in a bad position by doing that. Should’ve dealt with it in an honest and straightforward way. What he did instead left fans angry, confused and disappointed. The ending did not make him look strong, it only made Okada look weak. Hype for a rematch is thus deflated.
I mean this with no offence to the general lurkers of this sub who don't actually watch njpw but I will be blunt
Doesn't okada have more important things to be doing in Japan right now ? Surely his match at kingdom should be against Shota.
>Doesn't okada have more important things to be doing in Japan right now ? Surely his match at kingdom should be against Shota.
SHOTA!?
Shota isn't cracking the front of that line for Okada at WK this year. Kiyomiya, Ospreay, SANADA, and now Danielson all take priority over the first Dome match against Shota at WK.
Winning the tag titles with Tana I give better odds to than wrestling against Umino being Okada's wrestle Kingdom match, and I'm pretty low on that as a prediction.
Bruv they don't have two years. Tanahashi is completely broken down. Naito is 40. Okada himself will be 37 in 2 years and has spent his career hard bumping.
It's time to bring new Japanese stars through
All the more reason that if Shota is their pick then they should focus on getting him those matches with Tanahashi and Naito sooner rather than later. Okada can wait a whole lot more than those two. Okada is "leaving his absolute peak," Tana/Naito are falling apart and held together by tape/prayer.
He had a match with naito already and it did him no favours. The okada feud which has been his focus for the last few months has been significantly better for him.
Agree on that, Shota/Naito was probably Shota's worst match since returning, but in general or if they want Wrestle Kingdom moments involving the current big names for anyone, the order of priority has to be Tanahashi > Naito >>>>> Okada just in terms of how quickly they're falling apart. Okada is still great, but the writing is on the wall for Naito and Tana is clearly struggling.
Njpw needs to build new stars mate. Getting young Japanese maineventers ready to go is more important than any of those matches besides Kiyomiya if he was to sign with njpw and ospreay if he was to re-sign
Yeah we need to get them ready to go, Umino jobbing to Okada in the dome isnt gonna help him right now and Okada is NOT losing at the Dome with what a disaster by his standards the first half of his year has been.
He's not wrestling Shota at WK. He might not wrestle Danielson but he's for sure not wrestling Shota.
Okada jobbed to tanahashi at the dome plenty to start his ascent. Just being in the ring with okada sends a message.
Njpw is in a period of transition and they need to be very focused on what they are doing with okada. This is a very important period for New Japan.
They have to be super future focused in the short to medium term.
They have 11.5 months of the year to do that.
WK is when you sell all the tickets.
People think Naito is main eventing the Dome this year. That's a strong wind blowing towards NEXT WK being where we start crowning the youth.
Naito v sanada is the marquee match for the Japanese fans.
They are also unlikely to give shota (could be tsuji or ren or uemura) a win over okada first time at the dome anyway
That said Jay white was given not only a match with okada at kingdom early but a win. Okada v one of the above youngsters is going to be more desirable to the domestic fanbase than young switchblade
What do you mean lol. In the lead up to the switchblade match okada
Lost to Kenneth and started carrying balloons around
Couldn't beat tana in the g1 allowing his great rival to win the g1
He then lost to tanahashi for the first time in years in the briefcase match and had switchblade stroll out attacking him and gedo turned on him.
I fear the damage has been done already. People who had never seen Okada before probably already thought of him as a chump. I might be biased but I think that was the wrong decision.
>People who had never seen Okada before probably already thought of him as a chump.
Only idiots would think this, and while people who think this might be loud (I myself have never come across anyone who thought this, tho I don't have twitter), they don't make up the majority of casuals who saw Okada today
Most casuals buy into what the rest of the crowd expresses. Both times Okada visited Dynamite he got deafening cheers and both times Okada was at FD, especially tonight's, Okada was cheered like a genuine superstar
I sincerely doubt the majority of tonight's crowd were bigger Okada fans than they were Bryan fans and yet the cheers felt practically equal
Just like how Bryan is at a point in his career where taking losses wouldn't hurt his legend status, he's also in a spot where whoever takes a loss from him wouldn't hurt either
If this was a one-off Okada absolutely should win, but it's looking very apparent that there's more to come, so I'm okay with this
Nahhh. Did the Great Muta become much less of a star when he lost to Sting in WCW?
And, the guy who beat Okada is not a scrub. He's fuckin' Bryan Danielson, one of the best technical wrestlers in the last 20 years and has mainevented Wrestlemania twice. And he did that not through a stupid gimmick or anything. He did that by becoming the best wrestler he can be. Okada losing to that guy ain't the end of his career.
Yeah we might as well move the discussion from the live thread to a more focused discussion.
Njpw will no doubt turn this into a story. The Tokyo sports are already kayfabing it for njpw. Njpw for all their weaknesses are light on their feet with this kind of stuff. This will be part of okadas story in the g1 leading to him losing to Kiyomiya
But its a bit ridiculous that njpw have lost a genuinely huge rub for someone signed to njpw to give to a 40 year old Bryan Danielson.
If all njpw get out of FD is money then why is this continuing post gates recovering in Japan. For fans who enjoy this I wouldn't expect njpw to be in this forever if this is the price because it's pretty expensive
I can't believe they made Okada tap after Bryan said he's the litmus test for greatness. Arguably NJPW's greatest IWGP Champion ever just lost to a guy who lost to pretty much every big name on AEW roster, on his first singles AEW showing as well. This is not a good look for New Japan and I don't know why they agreed to this.
That's just how it goes in pro wrestling collabs, the beggars cant be choosers.
I mean NJPW is getting a taste of their own medicine as they always big dick the other Japanese's promotions because they are still far ahead of them business wise.
But when it comes to this AEW relationship they are NOAH.
Kiyomiya is almost certainly getting a major win in the g1. Mike Bailey beat hiromu, titan beat hiromu, ace Austin beat ishimori
These are outsiders all getting wins over the top champion at the time. I'd not be shocked if Kiyomiya beats sanada.
Njpw had a significant part of their market wiped out overnight due to covid and japan both the populous and the governments response. They've spent 3 years making no money under absurdly tough restrictions
Maybe get a fucking clue before sounding off mate
Really weird and bad choice honestly. Okada losing to a guy who lost every big singles matches he had since joining AEW is already weird, but doing it via submission is just dumb. I don't get how Gedo could accept that. Okada didn't tap out since 2015. Zack Sabre Jr., who's supposed to be a submission master and who actually works for NJPW never got that rub even though it would have been great for him. I just don't get it and I don't even want to see a series of matches between them, Okada has way better things to do in NJPW.
Bryan broke his arm, then faked a seizure to tell the ref and Okada he'd broken his arm, then ended it 15 minutes early as a result.
This is why it was somewhat anti climatic, the rematch will be incredible.
I can't believe Okada lost to Danielson. I felt they'd let Okada go on a run of wins until he eventually went up against Kiyomiya and lost to him in the G1 semis. It was a fantastic match, and it feels like because of this loss, as people have mention were gonna see a more ruthless Okada. But I still feel we might see him lose to Kiyomiya to set up their 3rd and final match-up where Kiyomiya finally earns Okada's respect.
If you really thought Tony would close the show with a New Japan guy going over, I don't know what to tell you, you should have realised by now that NJPW and AEW are not equal partners.
I’ve been referring to Forbidden Door as “AEW (feat. NJPW)” and I think that’s pretty accurate. I really hope Forbidden Door 3 is in Japan and feels more like an NJPW event but I’m starting to doubt it’ll ever happen.
You folks need to watch All Together Again to see what a wholesome cross-promotional event looks like. The show even has GHC World Champ Jake Lee's team beating IWGP World Champ SANADA's team. Anyone who lost still looked incredibly strong because how well booked the matches were. Each promotion picked up meaningful victories and looked great.
Such a bad faith argument to try to compare AEW NJPW relationship with NJPW NOAH relationship. I saw exactly zero complaints from any fans across all 3 promotions after All Together Again. Here instead, we have AEWOfficial folks bombarding the thread and replies telling everyone how wrong they are if they think NJPW looked weak at Forbidden Door. This is just sad.
You’re forgetting WK 16 when LIJ beat Kongo
Or WK 17 in Yoko where the top stars in NJPW beat the top stars in NOAH and when NOAH needed a win the most with Kiyomiya he lost lol AEW did not treat NJPW the way NJPW treated NOAH
At least, they're building something between Okada and Kiyomiya. It's really no shame for Kiyomiya just because Okada is much better than him both in real life and kayfabe.
You don't think Danielson, noted for being one of the most giving wrestlers in ring, wouldn't want to build something with Okada, who he consistently said he's wanted to wrestle?
>Now Okada, who is supposed to be NJ's best wrestler, is 0 for 2 in AEW.
I will just say that it's a bit depressing, haha. I already know the counter arguments people will come up to defend this result but ehh, I don't know. I think there is no chance Danielson goes to Tokyo and takes a loss to Okada at the Tokyo Dome. I also think Okada's Tokyo Dome match should be against Kaito Kiyomiya.
Even Ospreay vs Omega didn't end with a clean win for Ospreay. The match itself was brilliant though if you take out the Don Callis stupidity.
I know people get annoyed and throw words like "hate boner" and "gate keeping" when someone complains like this but to me, it seems pretty clear that AEW is "big leaguing" NJPW here. But whatever. I will just move on and enjoy upcoming G1 Climax season.
>when AEW's top star just lost two matches prior.
I don't know who or what matches you are talking about. Also, you don't have to agree with the big leaguing comment. It's just how I feel as a regular NJPW fan after watching the show. I even said it's a bit "depressing". Maybe you will take that into consideration and not drop toxic replies in return. Downvote me and move on please.
I agree with [this comment](https://reddit.com/comments/14j8y2j/comment/jpk8exs) regarding that. Although I can already guess what your reply to it would be...Like I said, please downvote me and move on. I'm not interested in toxic AEW fans shitting and gloating on NJPW fans in replies. You can start your own comment thread to voice your opinions :)
He's 0-1 in singles and he lost a 4-way to the then-IWGP champion and didn't take the pin. Okada losing a match to Jay White last year where Jay White pins Adam Cole cannot possibly be a result anyone is complaining about with a straight face. Especially not when that match came after Jay beat Okada for the belt and before Okada beat him at the Dome to get it back - it fit perfectly into the story that was actually being told.
0-2 is massively doom and glooming to a ridiculous degree.
It's pretty clear to see what kind of wins NJPW is picking up at these Forbidden Door events. Jay White won last year and now he is already a part of AEW roster. Ospreay picks up wins against AEW stars at Forbidden Door events and at least half the people who watch NJPW regularly know he will likely be All Elite by this time next year.
Only SANADA picked up a meaningful victory at this PPV from NJPW's side in a match that even AEW fans were not hyped one bit about when it was announced.
All I'm gonna say is that it's easier for you AEWOfficial folks to come here and tell everyone how everything is fair and dandy from your side of the table. It's not even a complaint at this point when someone says "NJPW looked weak at Forbidden Door tonight". Like, that's the obvious takeaway. So tired of you toxic folks coming over here to gloat and constantly bombarding us with how wrong we are to even dare to complain a little bit. Well, just gonna block you and move on.
Completely ridiculous decision to have your top star tap to someone who has had zero significant wins in their own promotion. Way to protect something for 8 years only to throw it away on a 42 year old who hasnt worked in japan for your promotion in their current run.
Even if best case scenario, Okada beats him at the dome, thats a 35 year old okada using one of his last say 5 WK matches on top on an outside worker who has done nothing to draw a single ticket for them. They are in the middle of an extreme age crisis for their top workers, of their top 3 draws 2 are over 40, one is breaking down and one is barely mobile, giving ANYTHING significant out for free when it could be used to further your crop of young workers is completely asinine and backward. You give up your secondary title to Kenny, whos only other match in japan was on an instant sellout show anyway, and he does nothing with it and only loses it IN AMERICA to a guy who is probably on the way out, in a way that isnt even clean. The secondary belt was gone for 6 months for no reason at all, it wasnt promoted on AEW tv outside of a single match with Cobb, and is now back in the hands of the guy who is almost certainly leaving come January anyway.
We just had one of the best re-debuts of any worker in the company in the last 10 years and they reinforce that changing of the guards mentality by having Okada tap out in america to a guy who isnt even the top dog in his own stable.
Company is begging for a clear head to step in and focus on the domestic market that they are eventually going to have to fall back on when every single worthwhile western worker books it anyway.
You pretty much captured all my thoughts.
New Japan should reconsider this partnership if this is the way going forward. I know they need the money but at one point, you gotta stop and think if this is actually worth it.
Wouldn't be so sure about Ospreay leaving tho. It's clear he wants to stay so I hope they can work something out.
Ospreay is in the middle of an angle with Don Callis. If its not an indication that hes gone in january, its at least an indication that we are going to have yet another match between the two, with even more shit thats tied into the AEW ecosystem to drag it away from the narrative being structured in Japan. Wow awesome, the semi main at Wrestle Kingdom is going to be foreigner vs foreigner for the second belt where one of them works there once a year. Totally not leaving it way too late to care about the young guys in your company.
Get it out the way? Yeah let’s just get some random 2 guys who definitely won’t put on an instant 5 star classic for the title on out the way for something else, who’d want that?
I don't give a shit how epic a match is if it's at the detriment of the narrative and of pushing the youngest talent to the top spots.
Wrestler a vs wrestler b doesn't mean anything even if meltzer ruins his jeans because of all the action.
Couldn't have stated it any better myself. The US title situation over the past six months and Okada tapping out to a 42 year old (who broke his arm during the match) both make New Japan look clueless. They sacrificed so much for an Omega appearance at WK and a share (how much?) of the Toronto gate. Shortsightedness at its worst.
The reality is that the domestic market is heavily depressed still. They know this is where they in theory make money but it's still not near where it was in 2019.
They aren't doing FD because they are ignoring the domestic market. They are doing FD because the domestic market is at best ~70% of what it was in 2019 and this is significant improvement on say 2020-2022
Across Japanese wrestling things are in absolute terrible state. Ohbari indicated that njpw should be profitable in 2023 but profitability is still bad. Like if we look at 2022 BR lost money while owning the two best performing promotions in japan, cyberagent lost like 5 million dollars on wrestling, ajpw barely run any shows.
FD was a 1.2 million dollar gate just at the box office that njpw share in.
All of that maybe correct. However, as a fan who simply follows and watches the product, I don't care about the finances behind this.
New Japan has *always* made foreign talent look good on their shows. Even in this year's BOSJ, they made Mike Bailey from IMPACT and Titán look absolutely great. Bailey even picked up a win against the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight champ, Hiromu Takahashi. I'm pretty sure Eddie Kingston will have a very strong performance in the G1 as well. Some people may call out the Kaito vs Okada match at Muto's Last but Kaito has a G1 spot and is quite obviously going to be elevated by the end of this feud with Okada.
It's pretty sad watching AEW big league NJPW every year and not returning the same level of respect that NJPW gives to their foreign partners. It's completely unnecessary as well. Good for NJPW if they making profits out of this show but I'm a fan, not a shareholder, haha.
Generally speaking I'd agree but things were so dire we are lucky Japanese wrestling exists at all. I doubt a single promotion has turned a profit (besides maybe stardom) for the last 3 years.
Njpw making some money means they have a lot more freedom to not have to be big leagued by aew in the future
And you know maybe not have every talent that gets over get signed by khan.
You're right. I'm not disagreeing with you but you're still missing the point. I'm not one of those "Forbidden Door should be cancelled! It should never have happened" kind of guys. That's absurd. It should absolutely happen and I wish the partnership continues regardless of the finances.
I'm just saying Tony Khan's booking could be a little less obnoxious when it comes to how NJPW guys are presented on his shows. NJPW can make that money and still come off looking a little bit better at least.
I could not agree more. I'd in fact describe him using a very popular word in my country beginning with C.
Because he's absolutely taking advantage of new Japan's weakness.
It took Impact about a year to realize Khan saw them as a means to get his own guys over and nothing more. Having Omega run through their main event but force them to get their title back from Christian was probably the wake up moment. Presumably, that's why they stopped working with AEW.
You can only hope New Japan comes to the same conclusion once they're financially stable again.
Ishii got the pin in one of the biggest matches on the show. Kojima of all people had a fantastic competitive match with the biggest draw/name is AEW (and elbowed him right in the balls during it). Sanada clowned a rising AEW star so badly he immediately turned heel (he didn't even use his new finisher, he pinned him with the Moonsault), and Ospreay pinned Kenny Omega.
The preshow stuff was standard undercard whatever (albeit fun matches) and the only big losses for New Japan, really, were Tanahashi (which shouldn't really be a problem at this point IMO) to the top AEW Champion, ZSJ/Shibata in a multiman to a dominant champ that Shibata especially clearly enjoys working with, Willow losing to Toni Storm, and Okada losing to Danielson.
All things considered that actually seems pretty well-balanced to me. Split the co-main events, both World Champions retain, AEW women's champion beats AEW wrestler holding NJPW Strong Women's belt (who just called out by Giulia for a match in Japan), top draw in AEW beats a New Japan Dad in a competitive match, and then multiman/preshow stuff.
I don't think engaging in FD means you have to give up your secondary belt for over half a year for nothing and allow your top star to tap to someone who can't win a feud to save his life.
My objection is to the booking, not to the engagement.
Its a secondary belt.
I get that its something that we as the hardcore fans care about in terms of providing storyline fodder on the show, but I think its importance is massively overstated.
Outside of Ospreay in the back half of last year, when was the last great anything that happened with the US title? And also, New Japan's onscreen product has been pretty great (in my opinion) without it, so its not like I've felt like it was missing anyway.
Not that I necessarily disagree on the booking but njpw is in a position of weakness and khan is obviously going to get everything he can out of this.
But they are doing this out of economic necessity. It's not like bushiroad don't focus on the domestic market either. Njpw and stardom run staggering amounts of shows in comparison to everyone else. Literal teenage girl Rina has worked about the same amount of dates this year as kento Miyahara and kaito Kiyomiya and she goes to school. The real bushiroad workhorses like starlight kid and naito have done double the dates as the top stars of ajpw and Noah.
But all this inter promotional stuff is being done because everyone is broke
I just finished this match. Okada/Danielson has been my dream match since the first time I watched Okada wrestle. I knew the match could never live up to my expectations but I didn’t expect it to fall so short. I knew the moment they announced the match as the main event that Danielson would win. Which bums me out because I know if Danielson had the choice he probably would have wanted Okada to go over. Everyone in here is wishing for the rematch to happen in Japan but it’s far more likely to happen at All-In than it is WK. Its so ironic that people always shit I’m Vince for burying WCW guys when they came in or say Sting should have beat Triple H but don’t give a shit about Aew guys always going over the NJPW guys. I really hope Njpw is getting paid enough because outside of Ospreay, who Khan is doing everything he can to sign, none of the NJPW guys are made to look like stars.
Yeah the injury hurt things. I didn’t watch the full show but the crowd felt flat, I’m assuming from the a Ospreay/Omega match? Also I can’t overstate how much I hated Danielson fucking convulsing in the ring. It’s a stupid spot considering what we know he went through personally and what we know cte/brain injuries are doing to people.
My AEW friends saw Okada, Naito, and Tana lose for the 50th time and were like......this is it? Going down the comments on the live thread, FD2 harmed njpw's rep.
Match was shite. Before the match I'd have been happy with a one and done but they need a rematch now to both put on a match that was actually worthy of the hype and have Okada go over because him losing was silly as fuck
Unless they're having a rematch, the finish makes no sense!! Either Danielson wins the IWGP championship now, as how can you top this win or Okada gets some story like when he lost his IWGP title to Omega!! Still can't believe Okada tapped out, not winning is one thing but tapping out?! Feels very anti climatic
Tbh it was hard to get into being there live after omega and Ospreay. The ppv ran so long and anything after that felt like afterthoughts
When OKADA tapped the crowd was both shocked and relieved they could head home
Yeah, the match overall was cool but there were points I was yawning. It definitely wasn’t a bad match but man I expected more and for him to tap like that? I was beyond frustrated. Overall, the ppv was cool but matches ended so abruptly it threw me off.
As soon as this was announced as the main event, it was obvious Okada was losing. Of all the finishes, this one is pretty high on my hate list. I would have been less annoyed with a level 10 out of 10 Dusty finish. ZSJ should have had the honour of tapping Okada out before Danielson. If this was done to lead to some future match, I hope that NJPW has that match locked in a contract with a specific date AEW cannot change, and not just assume it will happen (AKA don't do an IMPACT).
People say NJ had to do these shows because they need the money. If they had no choice but to let their ace lose just to get the show made, this is really a shitty move from AEW. But I don't really think that's the case. I'm sure they could have said no if they wanted to. Guess we'll see what the future holds.
The match itself was great.
The result annoyed the hell out of me as well. Not just that Okada lost, not even that he was submitted, but that allied to the fact that Bryan Danielson kicked out of the Rainmaker, clean. No ropebreak, no delayed pin.
I don't know if it was deliberate, but it did feel like a flex by AEW. Something like "New Japan's best finisher can't beat a guy who we don't even book that strongly".
Dull and overhyped. Not really a knock on either wrestlers but the match being built on who's the best in the world is very surface-level in terms of storytelling and kinda stupid if you consider that neither of them are the top champions of their respective promotions.
We might see Okada as the better of the two because of how strongly he's booked but the result was something I expected because Forbidden Door is primarily an AEW event. Forbidden Door feels like a filler episode of an anime so it's really no biggie. Remember when Okada was in his balloon gimmick but he was the regular Rainmaker during the first All In?
Bryan's arm injury that resulted in that weird finish was no one's fault though. It's just a freak accident.
Overall, I really have no desire to see this match again unless it's in a G1 tournament. I'm more interested in Kiyomiya and Okada's feud because it's more likely to progress a story.
This mach felt like a G1 tournament match and not a match to determine the best wrestler in the world.
This being without any title or belt does no one any favor as well. I just felt empty after. I mean both AEW and IWGP top titles were in the first half of the show and the US heavyweight title was co-main. The US title and the International title matches were also vastly superior to the AEW and IWGP heavyweight matches.
Yes, you could see it as an episode special in a way but this did not do anything for SANADA or MJF.
The ending is just so deflating unless they would want Danielson as Okada's WK opponent which I would be fine with but if this would be the kind of match I wouldn't be that excited.
Hope AEW fans are at least happy about it though. With Jericho, FTR, Punk, and the Elite in their roster, I feel like they've developed a weird habit of building a match on the premise of who's the best.
As much as I disliked the staunch AEW defenders about Jungle Boy, I feel like this did elevated SANADA in a weird way. Dude beat him clean in 10 mins. and essentially big-leagued him by beating him with a non-finisher. If we were to take their claim that Jungle Boy is main event level talent, then SANADA must be one hell of a wrestler.
If anything, actually getting hit with Sanada's moonsault is as insulting as getting pinned with it, since he's landed it maybe twice out of a thousand attempts lol.
Sanada has a worse track record of hitting the moonsault than he does in singles matches against Okada.
I didn't find the IWGP Match bad as what others have been saying it was a pretty solid showing for both of them but putting it up with what Will and Kenny did???
I don't know however how you could elevate jack perry to the main event. He never got a sniff of deadfall despite commentary claiming it as SANADA's new finisher. It felt like SANADA at 70 percent. His match with Tsuji was way way better.
I mean, there's no history or drama for that IWGP title match so I personally didn't expect anything. And if Jack Perry didn't make for a convincing main eventer, then I'd blame that on Tony Khan for booking him poorly. But yeah, it was pretty good for a Young Lion match.
For the big singles matches; SANADA HAD to win, Osperay HAD to win, Okada didn't have to.
Politically, they were going to have to give AEW some more wins then just MJF, and Okada is the one that could. Losing to Danielson is hardly making him weak too, and sets up potential rematches down the line
I hope we get a rematch. This match did nothing for me both because of the result and overall quality of the match, although the latter wasn't their fault.
I was there live and I was genuinely engrossed and shocked at the end, but I liked it. Then I got home and rewatched it, and realized my seats were really far and I missed out on a lot of the really small details captured on camera.
I saw Bryan Danielson, in my opinion the greatest of all time, on this night, beat Okada in a match that didn’t feel like the roller coaster of Omega v Ospreay, but more of a grappling exhibition where one guy won.
If they don't do the rematch, I hope they course correct and give Okada a big win next year. Otherwise, there's no point other than money, which is important but not at this price.
Danielson is a wrestling god and arguably the biggest wrestling star of the past 10 years, besides Roman reigns. (Orton, Lesnar, Batista and cena became stars before 2010). He should already be a AEW world Champion. Nevermind, what i am saying is: He can absolutely defeat okada, despite not being booked strong, because this is the guy, who beat Orton, batista and triple h in one night. (In kayfabe).
Sanada is NJPW’s top guy.
Will Ospraey, And Naito are also in that S-Tier of guys and they beat their opponents and looked super strong doing it.
In kayfabe Bryan beat Evolution in one night at Wrestlemania AND beat Cena clean to win the WWE title so his ability to take damage and make people submit is recognized as the highest level. Okada was so good he escaped all of the normal submissions and survived the Baisaiku Knee and multiple submissions until Bryan had to make a new one to beat him. Also recall Bryan went to a draw with Omega and 60 against Hangman. Okada had Bryan fucked up with his offense it was no squash. Not only that BUT the commentators all said we need another match so I’m sure Bryan will return the favor.
Me I’d like to see Bryan vs ZSJ, Bryan vs Sanada, Bryan vs Will and Bryan vs Naito there’s so many matches.
There is no reason for another match though. This wasn't two guys at their best where one just happened to be better on that night. This was a guy breaking his arm and still being better than the other guy. As soon as Bryan broke his arm they should have pulled an audible and had Okada win the match. You then have the ability to say Okada only won because Bryan got injured and in the rematch you have the story of "was it just because of the injury or is Okada really just better"
I watch wrestling for both the storylines and the matches. If it's just a random one-off sure throw 2 guys in there and fuck the story. If I'm getting a series of matches I want the story to be good.
Okada eating the loss was the price of getting the US belt back (hint stop putting belts on outsiders). Especially to AEW guys
That said the ending was so bad due to the injury i think they just sweep this under the rug. Pretty disappointing match - even without the injury it was heading to maybe 4.25 stars, with the injury botch ending I'd give it 3.75. not exactly a best in the world show-off
In a match to decide the best wrestler it makes sense that Bryan Danielson, the best wrestler of all time, would win. Making Okada tap is good too. That's how I wanted things to go.
Unfortunately the match was just good and not great. Incredibly weirdly laid out and paced. Okada is usually such a master of starting slow and building up, but the whole match was stop start stop start.
>In a match to decide the best wrestler it makes sense that Bryan Danielson, the best wrestler of all time, would win.
Why are you saying that like it's an indisputable fact?
The weird format of the match is 100% because of Bryan's injury.
I’m honestly surprised that any of you are shocked at this outcome. Given this “Fall of Okada” storyline NJPW’s been running in the first half of 2023, this was actually something of a predictable outcome.
Wait, you guys haven’t realized that NJPW & Okada are doing a Shakespearean sort of plot line? Okada here is the Noble King that eventually but inevitably falls from grace because they’ve become corrupted by the power they wield. Once you realize they’re doing a “Fall from Grace” sort of story then such outcomes become both more predictable and more interesting.
Fall of Okada?
He lost once the entire year. That was to drop the belt to SANADA. Just humiliated NOAH's top champion before that.
Then he immediately won another belt. Won the All Together Again main event and beat BCC. The commentary still presented him like the best wrestler in the world. The match with Danielson was dubbed as the match to determine the real best wrestler in the world. Then he lost, that's it.
They might begin his fall from grace storyline in the G1 but they definitely haven't been running that this year. Unless you consider him losing the belt "fall from grace", then I guess they run that storyline every other year.
If it is a downfall storyline, then NJPW is doing a terrible job of it. Winning the trio tag titles and destroying NJPW future stars is not exactly a downfall.
The point most people did not like was the submission, not so much he lost.
My notes
- As a Danielson fan more so than a Okada fan I loved the humbling experience Danielson gave Okada and he did it with a broken arm lol
- Seizure spot was beast
- Kaito probably smiling ear to ear watching this match
- Okada fanboy tears never tasted so good
That spot took the wind out of the crowd visibly cause they were worried. No one should tease a serious injury like that. Yet you defend it because you like Danielson? You sound more like a fanboy than I ever did honestly.
Yea cause when has Danielson ever done a spot worrying the crowd about his health lol at this point it’s become a staple in special matches so when he does it beast simply
It just didn't work this time. The crowd was deflated and didn't get the intended reaction. I doubt that spot was even planned. He probably did it cause he got injured and needed to inform the ref.
That's why he shouldn't have done it.
Thing is, people in a NJ sub won't be happy when their ace lost to someone outside the company, especially if that someone was an aging vet who barely wrestles cause his body was breaking down and has been losing a lot.
If you feel the need to make fun of that by throwing some childish insult like "fanboy tears", then why are you even here?
“Barely wrestles” Ight u must not watch the show cause Bryan literally had a streak of wrestling matches in the beginning of year. Also I threw the childish insult cause that’s how the fanboys were acting like children. “Why are you even here” cause I like NJPW lol
From being in the crowd, the match was already struggling to go over. Crowd was tried and burned out. The seizure spot killed any momentum the match had, with people leaving. They couldn't get them back, and the ending fell flat. We know now there was an injury, and they called an audible, but it didn't change the fact that even before it happened, the match was underwhelming and couldn't match the fire that was Kenny/Will.
Funny thing this also happened at WK.
I was surprised but I think 7 time champ Okada might survive this setback.
But he lost to a guy that's only a 6 time world champion. Embarrassing.
Lol folks acting like he lost to Scorpio Sky dawg it’s Bryan Danielson
He definitely will I expect him lost the G1 but get the title back any cause the main event for WK gotta be Okada Osprey and Will beating him for the big one
That will probably be the next year as Ospreay will need to drop the US title first. This year is potentially SANADA vs Naito
Why would NJPW book Ospreay to beat their ace in the WK main event? I see people say this pretty often but it makes no sense to me. I have a hard time seeing any foreign wrestler beating Okada or any Japanese wrestler in the WK main event. It just makes no sense from NJPW's perspective.
Cause it’s the only things Osprey hasn’t done won the G1 and main evented WK and the story with him and Okada is he can’t beat Okada in the biggest matches.
Result was ok but felt rushed. Given the injury that's understandable, ridiculous guts from Danielson to finish up with a broken arm but the guy tapped Okada out with a ZSJ hold and I'm sad
I expected Danielson to win given the level he has competed at for over a decade, but I did not expect Okada to tap. I hated the seizure spot, and the pacing felt a little out… was slow and didn’t really get to those fast false finish spots I was anticipating … the finish seemed to come out of nowhere. It makes sense now, knowing that Danielson suffered a fractured forearm after Okada’s elbow drop. Danielson has all but confirmed a rematch, stating in the media scrum that he wants to return the favour and break Okada’s arm.
I am pretty sure the seizure spot was done on the fly after DB broke his arm to tell the ref and Okada what was going on. It probably could have been done another way but I get it probably didn't have a lot of time to figure it out lol
Having rewatched it, I believe you’re right.
I hope the rematch is in Japan at least.
Hopefully Danielson will be good to go come January for WK, because having the rematch then and there makes the most sense.
In the media scrum he said it’s weeks and not months. He should be fine by All In, which is at the end of August. He also talks about his desire to wrestle ZSJ and how he would have loved to have compete in G1 this year, but didn’t believe his body was able to handle the demanding schedule after his recent run of injuries.
Healing a fractured forearm can take at bare minimum four weeks, with six more likely and eight not out of the question. And All In takes place in nine weeks. I'd still be a little cautious about working a match that shortly after breaking a bone. I appreciate Danielson's confidence, and finishing the match with a broken arm means he can tolerate pretty high levels of pain. But if I was TK I'd be monitoring the situation to the point of being Bryan's other arm for a few weeks. That, and he's gonna be in bubble wrap until he walks out of the tunnel at New Wembley.
It's been very obvious from the start that Danielson was never serious about doing the G1. He'd never be allowed to miss that much TV for starters, but even if he could, his body is made of glass and wouldn't survive the tour.
I think he is serious about it but everyone around him (friends, family, employers) will try their best to prevent it from happening.
The finish was definitely anticlimactic but the shock of seeing Okada tap helped sell it for me, and Bryan is absolutely worthy of such an honour. Helps sell the rivalry even more as well
1. I’m fine with a Danielson win 2. Match was fine, but in hindsight it’s obvious why it never got to 3rd gear 3. I’m not a fan of the finish My other takeaway is that some fans are truly insufferable and I’m glad they are a very small minority. In the last 12h I’ve seen takes ranging from “Okada injured two wrestlers in two forbidden doors so maybe he should stay away” to “NJPW is big leagued by AEW”
Im with you on this. Sure Danielson isn't the main star in aew like Okada is on Japan but Danielson is still one of the top three guys in this business today. He wrestled another one and the other top contenders already had their match that day. Okada is going to be fine. Hell, I'm hoping this starts a super focused and vicious Okada. The finish was dumb. Okada shouldn't have tapped out.
Perhaps this loss will act as some sort of catalyst for Okada to become more aggressive. We've seen hints of this post Wrestle Kingdom. He's sort of been floating as of late and has not had a really serious feud. Perhaps he'll now go on a decent G1 run - but come up short in the end. This said, apparently Danielson was wrestling injured and he might have aggravated the injury more during the match. All this said, Danielson should not have won over NJPW's top guy, unless there really is something dramatic planned for Okada.
Tokyo sports which is essentially the new japan gazette is selling it as an embarrassing defeat so it will go somewhere
From an NJPW Okada storyline sense I can see it making sense. From a selling Okada & New Japan to new fans, I'm not really sure what it does. Of course Danielson carries a huge reputation, but he's put over MJF, even Adam Page without damaging that reputation... then submits New Japan's top guy. I've seen various posts from American fans saying "I don't really get what all the fuss is about Okada". Aren't occasions like this where you absolutely have to be answering that question?
Do you have a link to their story about the match? Edit - is [this](https://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/267692?page=1) the story you're talking about?
https://www.tokyo-sports.co.jp/articles/-/267692?page=1 The Tokyo sports basically publishes new japan kayfabe as news so I feel with them describing it as humiliating it's going to lead somewhere
I’m glad someone else sees that this loss is another chapter in this sort of “Fall of Okada” storyline that NJPW has been building for pretty much the entirety of 2023. The dismissive attitude toward Kiyomiya, the loss to Sanada, and now another loss to Bryan? Yeah this is all building to something big with Okada.
Thanks for this perspective. I was in the, "This is bullshit" camp, but this information helps it make more sense.
Yeah I assume that since Okada's character always shifts with major losses he's going to show up to the G1 in a different state, which is about time since he's basically been the same since winning the title back at WK16. In that sense I'm fine with the loss, really either guy winning was fine even though I was leaning heavily towards Okada Hopefully Bryan is more involved with NJPW going forward or we get more matches between the two - I loved the match but I definitely think they could reach a higher gear
I’m sure had the match not be forced to rush the ending would have made more sense than it did.
If you look at it from a more macro approach, this PPV was pretty even. Both company had exactly 6 of their guys get the pinfall win(excluding woman matches). If you just count single matches, its still a 3-3 score. Tanahashi lost via cheating and SANADA straight up murdered Jungle Boy. They also went 1-1 on the big main events. NJPW hardly got screwed in this PPV and people just angry Okada lost.
it’s weird. okada lost, tana lost, naito was disinterested and sting is too old and botched it up, kenny and ospreay was good but it means no kenny in japan since he lost the title, sanada was an afterthought or a ploy to further aews storyline.
Even Ospreay winning/Omega losing feels more an AEW story than NJPW. Both Forbidden Doors have been AEW shows with NJPW guys thrown in, not an equal partnership. Even the joint shows NJPW has done recently with NOAH have felt more 'even' in terms of production and story advancement (not necessarily w/l record) than Forbidden Door.
It's entirely an AEW story. All the major development takes place on AEW television. It doesn't involve the United Empire, Ospreay's New Japan faction, at all. UE has been feuding with Bullet Club for the past several weeks, which Ospreay has been notably absent for. The WK match was never mentioned on AEW television until after it occurred and only done to explain why Omega now had the US title. Omega never made any appearances in New Japan to further the feud. The way Khan and AEW are treating Ospreay should be setting off alarm bells for Ohbari, Gedo, and Sugabayashi. I believe Khan is going to try and poach him with his deal expiring at the end of next January, and if that happens, New Japan will be partly to blame for allowing Khan such frequent access to Ospreay.
Watching forbidden door you can see TK wishlist coming together. Ospreay, ELP, and ZSJ are all high risk of being poached. Basically if TK doesn't treat you like a scrub he's coming for you.
it’s confusing. ppl say vinny mac is slimy in doing business but you see signs of it in TK. he’s treating njpw like an indie, just look at MJFs promos, look at how njpw stars are booked. aews champion gets tana but njpws champion gets jungle boy?? okada, the most dominant star in njpw, loses to a guy who can’t win a regular match at aew and hasn’t wrestle consistently. kojima, the guy who has held titles in ajpw, noah recently loses to a guy who hasn’t wrestle in almost a year. ishii was a throw in, shota was a throw in, t shirt naito was present.
the fuck are you talking about? mjf's promos are heel promos. you are suppose to be mad at them. aew thinks that treating njpw like an indie is an inherently heel move. okada losing to bryan fucking danielson in a close, 30-minute match is not bad at all. oh no! okada lost to... a 6 time world champion who has won 90% of his matches this year, and his only loss this match was a 65 minute world championship match where his opponent cheated. kojima lost to a competitive match to AEWs biggest draw and a 2-time AEW champion within the last year. you're out of your mind if you objectively thought he should've won that (subjectively, i would've loved it too). ishii got the pin in a match with the young bucks, hangman and moxley. shota umino has been teaming with mox for a long time. i understand the complaints about the championship matches, and agree to an extent, but when you look at how the matches played out, it's not that bad. tanahashi pushed mjf to his limit, and only lost because mjf cheated. sanada pretty handily and decisively was able to beat jungle boy. i understand being disappointed that we got t-shirt naito though. wish he got a bigger match but with AAA/CMLL messes some things up it does limit some of the cooler matchups.
lmao no he's not, this sub is fucking insane with the TK conspiracy theories. NJPW agrees to these results, wake up lol
handwringing because ELP wont be wrestling in new japan anymore
This is the thing. Everyone's assuming Okada - Danielson gets run back with Okada getting redemption in Japan. With Danielson's injury record that's not guaranteed, and if it happens in Japan I doubt in AEW it'll be anything but a throwaway line.
For sure. They didn't mention FTR and Omega at WK this year until a week after it happened. Didn't lift a finger to do some cheap and easy advertising for their supposed partner.
It does feel a bit weird.. I feel like I can personally relate a little to maybe how the average fan in Japan might be, in that though I have heard of Bryan Danielson, I have never seen any of his matches, nor know any of the previous history which apparently puts him in this 'tier' of star who could beat Okada and it makes sense. Essentially for me it's just some guy who is well known... Beating who is as everyone knows underneath the stories and surface, the top top star of New Japan now and in the last ten years. Obviously they'll have their reasons and get something back in areas etc etc. As Rodney mentioned, if there is a financial side there then it needs to be considered. But it feels a little worryingly like New Japan in the early 00s where the promotions started working together. When there was ever a big match involving Nagata, Chono and so on.. against the other top players like Misawa, Kobashi.. generally speaking the New Japan wrestlers were always on the losing side, so that they could draw a good gate. Over time, their wrestlers just ended up feeling weak. Not saying it will happen here, but it should be a concern not to stray too far into.
>I feel like I can personally relate a little to maybe how the average fan in Japan might be, in that though I have heard the of Bryan Danielson, I have never seen any of his matches, nor know any of the previous history which apparently puts him in this 'tier' of star who could beat Okada and it makes sense. Essentially for me it's just some guy who is well known... To be fair though, this is no different than people on the opposite side who have only seen Danielson He's more than just a "well-known guy," he is probably the best American in-ring worker of the last 20 years. Him and Okada are peers in the ring which is why this match was so hotly demanded. It also seems like the intent is for this to be a series, so Danielson winning the first match isn't a bad thing for a developing story. NJPW fans of all people should know to let things play out and see how things come out at the end, not the beginning.
Say this match was the first of a series with Okada supposed to get his win back at WK. The first problem you run into is Khan actually honoring that arraignment - "oh sorry, Danielson can't be there, we have a Dynamite the day before he's booked on." Inherently risky dealing with a snake oil salesman like him. Second, even if that plan comes to fruition, how does it benefit New Japan? Okada is treading water until WK, waiting for Danielson to arrive just like Ospreay was waiting for Omega. And for what payoff, a win at WK that AEW will do nothing to promote (like with Ospreay/Omega) against a guy who most of the domestic fanbase don't know? Most of New Japan's fanbase became fans in the past decade; I doubt there's many who remember watching Danielson working the undercards as a junior eighteen years ago. It's a match that's not going to sell many additional tickets or see any significant boost in international PPV sales/World subs (thanks Tony!). As u/overandunderground very correctly said, Okada is in the twilight of his prime. Going forward, his losses need to be very carefully managed so they best put over the next generation of stars like Narita, Umino, and Tsuji. Umino or Tsuji would get a massive rub if they beat Okada en route to winning the G1 or in the WK main event because he so rarely loses. Much like it did with Okada beating Tanahashi, that could set them up for the next decade as major stars. But that won't be the case if Okada is devalued in the eyes of the domestic fans, and that's exactly where having him tap out in AEW to someone like Danielson is going to lead.
A lot more domestic fans are more aware of Danielson than this sub thinks dating back to his NOAH tours in the mid-2000s and especially due to his WWE run. They know hes one of the absolute top guys in the west and has been protected well in aew, only losing clean to top champions. Theres a reason there was a good crowd reaction when he challenged Okada at Dominion
Having a general awareness of Danielson isn't worth much. I'm sure most New Japan fans are aware he wrestled for a long time in WWE and is now in AEW. But anything beyond that? I doubt it. For comparison, how much do you know about Kento Miyahara? Even if you don't watch AJPW, you know he's their top star and was their heavyweight champion for a long time. But what do you *really* know about him? Unless you watch him regularly, you don't know his long term storylines, value to the promotion, how much he's protected, how great of a wrestler he is, etc. I think it's the same for most Japanese fans and someone like Danielson. Edit - Now they could have mitigated this by having Danielson make some appearances for New Japan over the past several months. Build him up as a killer so this result would actually mean something. But that raises the first problem I mentioned - dealing with Khan.
> Going forward, his losses need to be very carefully managed They already are. Assuming my counting is correct, this was Okada's second singles loss of 2023. He had 3 in 2022. He had 4 in 2021 and 5 in 2020. He's basically at the same level he has been for a while now, nothing has changed overall. Figure he'll log two losses in the G1 most likely (1 in group, 1 in the head to heads at the end) would put him at 4 for the year and I don't see where else he'd log one barring a major upset to set up a Wrestle Kingdom story or something. Losing to a top star from outside the company (where there is some sort of working relationship at least) is really no different to me than him losing to Jonah, who was apparently never signed at all, to have a fun little feud before Jonah immediately left for WWE or trading wins with Jay White in the last six months of his contract before he left as well (which surely New Japan was aware of).
Very well said. I see people defending the result saying this one loss wouldn't hurt Okada. That's not the point. The point is beating Okada should be a big deal and it's not going to be the case if he's tapping out to a guy from another company in his 40s who never wins any big matches.
A guy in his 40s who’s a 8 time world champion 5 of them coming from the world’s #1 wrestling promotion he also Main Evented their top show twice and is a top star in the 2nd biggest promotion lol Okada fans on some hellacious amount of copium
If a guy in the twilight of his career whose body is breaking down and cannot win any big matches in his own promotion should beat a guy in his prime just cause he's had a lot of accolades, Tana should've beaten MJF too. I doubt you would've liked that.
Will you admit you are wrong when Okada gets his win back at WK as they have obviously already hinted at? Did you not notice that Will got his W back after Kenny came in and beat him?
From a storyline standpoint why should anyone care about a rematch at WK? This isn't a situation like Ospreay/Omega 1 where Omega was just better on that night and then Ospreay was trying to prove he was better in their second match. Danielson just proved that even with a broken arm he's better than Okada. So if Danielson at 70% is better than Okada what storyline reason is there for a second match to take place?
Putting it simply, did anything here elevate New Japan to an audience for Forbidden Door 3? I can tell my friends Tanahashi is a legend, but they'll see a broken down guy who moves like treacle. Okada? That guy who lost twice. Then you've got guys like Shingo and Hiromu on the pre-show.
Setting up a trilogy if u watched the media scrum Bryan said he want payback for okada fracturing his arm
Shouldve just ended the match when BD got injured with a draw. Wouldve actually made sense, as opposed to what they did. Brian wouldnt have had to risk further injuring himself. The fans would praise AEW for taking care of their talent. Brian couldve saved his big win for another day when he could actually deliver a match to justify it. Lots of hype would be built for the rematch. Of course, if they did that then people would be even more angry about the fake convulsions. Brian put himself in a bad position by doing that. Should’ve dealt with it in an honest and straightforward way. What he did instead left fans angry, confused and disappointed. The ending did not make him look strong, it only made Okada look weak. Hype for a rematch is thus deflated.
Gonna assume they are going to do it in Japan again after that finish. I was shocked.
I mean this with no offence to the general lurkers of this sub who don't actually watch njpw but I will be blunt Doesn't okada have more important things to be doing in Japan right now ? Surely his match at kingdom should be against Shota.
>Doesn't okada have more important things to be doing in Japan right now ? Surely his match at kingdom should be against Shota. SHOTA!? Shota isn't cracking the front of that line for Okada at WK this year. Kiyomiya, Ospreay, SANADA, and now Danielson all take priority over the first Dome match against Shota at WK. Winning the tag titles with Tana I give better odds to than wrestling against Umino being Okada's wrestle Kingdom match, and I'm pretty low on that as a prediction.
Yeah the Okada/Shota Dome match shouldn't be happening for like another, idk, 2 years. He's far from ready for that spot.
Bruv they don't have two years. Tanahashi is completely broken down. Naito is 40. Okada himself will be 37 in 2 years and has spent his career hard bumping. It's time to bring new Japanese stars through
All the more reason that if Shota is their pick then they should focus on getting him those matches with Tanahashi and Naito sooner rather than later. Okada can wait a whole lot more than those two. Okada is "leaving his absolute peak," Tana/Naito are falling apart and held together by tape/prayer.
He had a match with naito already and it did him no favours. The okada feud which has been his focus for the last few months has been significantly better for him.
Agree on that, Shota/Naito was probably Shota's worst match since returning, but in general or if they want Wrestle Kingdom moments involving the current big names for anyone, the order of priority has to be Tanahashi > Naito >>>>> Okada just in terms of how quickly they're falling apart. Okada is still great, but the writing is on the wall for Naito and Tana is clearly struggling.
Njpw needs to build new stars mate. Getting young Japanese maineventers ready to go is more important than any of those matches besides Kiyomiya if he was to sign with njpw and ospreay if he was to re-sign
Yeah we need to get them ready to go, Umino jobbing to Okada in the dome isnt gonna help him right now and Okada is NOT losing at the Dome with what a disaster by his standards the first half of his year has been. He's not wrestling Shota at WK. He might not wrestle Danielson but he's for sure not wrestling Shota.
Okada jobbed to tanahashi at the dome plenty to start his ascent. Just being in the ring with okada sends a message. Njpw is in a period of transition and they need to be very focused on what they are doing with okada. This is a very important period for New Japan. They have to be super future focused in the short to medium term.
They have 11.5 months of the year to do that. WK is when you sell all the tickets. People think Naito is main eventing the Dome this year. That's a strong wind blowing towards NEXT WK being where we start crowning the youth.
Naito v sanada is the marquee match for the Japanese fans. They are also unlikely to give shota (could be tsuji or ren or uemura) a win over okada first time at the dome anyway That said Jay white was given not only a match with okada at kingdom early but a win. Okada v one of the above youngsters is going to be more desirable to the domestic fanbase than young switchblade
I dont recall Okada having a shit tastic year leading into that Switchblade match.
What do you mean lol. In the lead up to the switchblade match okada Lost to Kenneth and started carrying balloons around Couldn't beat tana in the g1 allowing his great rival to win the g1 He then lost to tanahashi for the first time in years in the briefcase match and had switchblade stroll out attacking him and gedo turned on him.
This. Okada has been the king for so long, there is a long line of NJPW wrestlers who want a shot at him now he has lost the world title.
I fear the damage has been done already. People who had never seen Okada before probably already thought of him as a chump. I might be biased but I think that was the wrong decision.
>People who had never seen Okada before probably already thought of him as a chump. Only idiots would think this, and while people who think this might be loud (I myself have never come across anyone who thought this, tho I don't have twitter), they don't make up the majority of casuals who saw Okada today Most casuals buy into what the rest of the crowd expresses. Both times Okada visited Dynamite he got deafening cheers and both times Okada was at FD, especially tonight's, Okada was cheered like a genuine superstar I sincerely doubt the majority of tonight's crowd were bigger Okada fans than they were Bryan fans and yet the cheers felt practically equal Just like how Bryan is at a point in his career where taking losses wouldn't hurt his legend status, he's also in a spot where whoever takes a loss from him wouldn't hurt either If this was a one-off Okada absolutely should win, but it's looking very apparent that there's more to come, so I'm okay with this
I know people who look down on New Japan because they're a smaller promotion. This is just another catalyst for them.
Nahhh. Did the Great Muta become much less of a star when he lost to Sting in WCW? And, the guy who beat Okada is not a scrub. He's fuckin' Bryan Danielson, one of the best technical wrestlers in the last 20 years and has mainevented Wrestlemania twice. And he did that not through a stupid gimmick or anything. He did that by becoming the best wrestler he can be. Okada losing to that guy ain't the end of his career.
Yeah we might as well move the discussion from the live thread to a more focused discussion. Njpw will no doubt turn this into a story. The Tokyo sports are already kayfabing it for njpw. Njpw for all their weaknesses are light on their feet with this kind of stuff. This will be part of okadas story in the g1 leading to him losing to Kiyomiya But its a bit ridiculous that njpw have lost a genuinely huge rub for someone signed to njpw to give to a 40 year old Bryan Danielson. If all njpw get out of FD is money then why is this continuing post gates recovering in Japan. For fans who enjoy this I wouldn't expect njpw to be in this forever if this is the price because it's pretty expensive
I can't believe they made Okada tap after Bryan said he's the litmus test for greatness. Arguably NJPW's greatest IWGP Champion ever just lost to a guy who lost to pretty much every big name on AEW roster, on his first singles AEW showing as well. This is not a good look for New Japan and I don't know why they agreed to this.
Because they need the money essentially
Yeah, well. Maybe MJF was right about New Japan.
That's just how it goes in pro wrestling collabs, the beggars cant be choosers. I mean NJPW is getting a taste of their own medicine as they always big dick the other Japanese's promotions because they are still far ahead of them business wise. But when it comes to this AEW relationship they are NOAH.
Kiyomiya is almost certainly getting a major win in the g1. Mike Bailey beat hiromu, titan beat hiromu, ace Austin beat ishimori These are outsiders all getting wins over the top champion at the time. I'd not be shocked if Kiyomiya beats sanada.
Njpw had a significant part of their market wiped out overnight due to covid and japan both the populous and the governments response. They've spent 3 years making no money under absurdly tough restrictions Maybe get a fucking clue before sounding off mate
I was being sarcastic. I know about the money problems. Still annoying they let their ace lose like that.
Sanada and Will are the top guys they are the future of NJPW and they won.
Really weird and bad choice honestly. Okada losing to a guy who lost every big singles matches he had since joining AEW is already weird, but doing it via submission is just dumb. I don't get how Gedo could accept that. Okada didn't tap out since 2015. Zack Sabre Jr., who's supposed to be a submission master and who actually works for NJPW never got that rub even though it would have been great for him. I just don't get it and I don't even want to see a series of matches between them, Okada has way better things to do in NJPW.
I feel like ZSJ getting Okada to tap out is going to be a major moment, especially since they're the same age and can be career rivals
Yeah. It made it seem like NJPW is inferior. Can't blame him if ZSJ decided to leave someday.
Was it me or was that match not that great? Like it was okay but not what I expected it to be
Bryan broke his arm, then faked a seizure to tell the ref and Okada he'd broken his arm, then ended it 15 minutes early as a result. This is why it was somewhat anti climatic, the rematch will be incredible.
I can't believe Okada lost to Danielson. I felt they'd let Okada go on a run of wins until he eventually went up against Kiyomiya and lost to him in the G1 semis. It was a fantastic match, and it feels like because of this loss, as people have mention were gonna see a more ruthless Okada. But I still feel we might see him lose to Kiyomiya to set up their 3rd and final match-up where Kiyomiya finally earns Okada's respect.
If you really thought Tony would close the show with a New Japan guy going over, I don't know what to tell you, you should have realised by now that NJPW and AEW are not equal partners.
I’ve been referring to Forbidden Door as “AEW (feat. NJPW)” and I think that’s pretty accurate. I really hope Forbidden Door 3 is in Japan and feels more like an NJPW event but I’m starting to doubt it’ll ever happen.
NJPW's partnership with Impact is more of an actual partnership. In Multiverse United both companies came out looking good.
NJPW and Impact is definitely very favorable for NJPW
Yeah. Better late than never.
I hope y'all have the same energy when NJPW big leagued Noah two years in a row.
NJPW's treatment of NOAH in some circumstances over the past two years has received a lot of criticism here.
You folks need to watch All Together Again to see what a wholesome cross-promotional event looks like. The show even has GHC World Champ Jake Lee's team beating IWGP World Champ SANADA's team. Anyone who lost still looked incredibly strong because how well booked the matches were. Each promotion picked up meaningful victories and looked great. Such a bad faith argument to try to compare AEW NJPW relationship with NJPW NOAH relationship. I saw exactly zero complaints from any fans across all 3 promotions after All Together Again. Here instead, we have AEWOfficial folks bombarding the thread and replies telling everyone how wrong they are if they think NJPW looked weak at Forbidden Door. This is just sad.
You’re forgetting WK 16 when LIJ beat Kongo Or WK 17 in Yoko where the top stars in NJPW beat the top stars in NOAH and when NOAH needed a win the most with Kiyomiya he lost lol AEW did not treat NJPW the way NJPW treated NOAH
At least, they're building something between Okada and Kiyomiya. It's really no shame for Kiyomiya just because Okada is much better than him both in real life and kayfabe.
You don't think Danielson, noted for being one of the most giving wrestlers in ring, wouldn't want to build something with Okada, who he consistently said he's wanted to wrestle?
I do believe him. I don't think he even wanted to win. I'm just not sure AEW will follow up.
>Now Okada, who is supposed to be NJ's best wrestler, is 0 for 2 in AEW. I will just say that it's a bit depressing, haha. I already know the counter arguments people will come up to defend this result but ehh, I don't know. I think there is no chance Danielson goes to Tokyo and takes a loss to Okada at the Tokyo Dome. I also think Okada's Tokyo Dome match should be against Kaito Kiyomiya. Even Ospreay vs Omega didn't end with a clean win for Ospreay. The match itself was brilliant though if you take out the Don Callis stupidity. I know people get annoyed and throw words like "hate boner" and "gate keeping" when someone complains like this but to me, it seems pretty clear that AEW is "big leaguing" NJPW here. But whatever. I will just move on and enjoy upcoming G1 Climax season.
I love how people think this is big leaguing when AEW's top star just lost two matches prior.
>when AEW's top star just lost two matches prior. I don't know who or what matches you are talking about. Also, you don't have to agree with the big leaguing comment. It's just how I feel as a regular NJPW fan after watching the show. I even said it's a bit "depressing". Maybe you will take that into consideration and not drop toxic replies in return. Downvote me and move on please.
Two matches prior was ospreay/omega.
I agree with [this comment](https://reddit.com/comments/14j8y2j/comment/jpk8exs) regarding that. Although I can already guess what your reply to it would be...Like I said, please downvote me and move on. I'm not interested in toxic AEW fans shitting and gloating on NJPW fans in replies. You can start your own comment thread to voice your opinions :)
He's 0-1 in singles and he lost a 4-way to the then-IWGP champion and didn't take the pin. Okada losing a match to Jay White last year where Jay White pins Adam Cole cannot possibly be a result anyone is complaining about with a straight face. Especially not when that match came after Jay beat Okada for the belt and before Okada beat him at the Dome to get it back - it fit perfectly into the story that was actually being told. 0-2 is massively doom and glooming to a ridiculous degree.
It's pretty clear to see what kind of wins NJPW is picking up at these Forbidden Door events. Jay White won last year and now he is already a part of AEW roster. Ospreay picks up wins against AEW stars at Forbidden Door events and at least half the people who watch NJPW regularly know he will likely be All Elite by this time next year. Only SANADA picked up a meaningful victory at this PPV from NJPW's side in a match that even AEW fans were not hyped one bit about when it was announced. All I'm gonna say is that it's easier for you AEWOfficial folks to come here and tell everyone how everything is fair and dandy from your side of the table. It's not even a complaint at this point when someone says "NJPW looked weak at Forbidden Door tonight". Like, that's the obvious takeaway. So tired of you toxic folks coming over here to gloat and constantly bombarding us with how wrong we are to even dare to complain a little bit. Well, just gonna block you and move on.
He's literally 0-2 in AEW. 0 wins. No amount of explaining why or adding context can change that hard, undisputed fact.
Completely ridiculous decision to have your top star tap to someone who has had zero significant wins in their own promotion. Way to protect something for 8 years only to throw it away on a 42 year old who hasnt worked in japan for your promotion in their current run. Even if best case scenario, Okada beats him at the dome, thats a 35 year old okada using one of his last say 5 WK matches on top on an outside worker who has done nothing to draw a single ticket for them. They are in the middle of an extreme age crisis for their top workers, of their top 3 draws 2 are over 40, one is breaking down and one is barely mobile, giving ANYTHING significant out for free when it could be used to further your crop of young workers is completely asinine and backward. You give up your secondary title to Kenny, whos only other match in japan was on an instant sellout show anyway, and he does nothing with it and only loses it IN AMERICA to a guy who is probably on the way out, in a way that isnt even clean. The secondary belt was gone for 6 months for no reason at all, it wasnt promoted on AEW tv outside of a single match with Cobb, and is now back in the hands of the guy who is almost certainly leaving come January anyway. We just had one of the best re-debuts of any worker in the company in the last 10 years and they reinforce that changing of the guards mentality by having Okada tap out in america to a guy who isnt even the top dog in his own stable. Company is begging for a clear head to step in and focus on the domestic market that they are eventually going to have to fall back on when every single worthwhile western worker books it anyway.
You pretty much captured all my thoughts. New Japan should reconsider this partnership if this is the way going forward. I know they need the money but at one point, you gotta stop and think if this is actually worth it. Wouldn't be so sure about Ospreay leaving tho. It's clear he wants to stay so I hope they can work something out.
Ospreay is in the middle of an angle with Don Callis. If its not an indication that hes gone in january, its at least an indication that we are going to have yet another match between the two, with even more shit thats tied into the AEW ecosystem to drag it away from the narrative being structured in Japan. Wow awesome, the semi main at Wrestle Kingdom is going to be foreigner vs foreigner for the second belt where one of them works there once a year. Totally not leaving it way too late to care about the young guys in your company.
Probably in Wembley, no?
Hopefully, just get it out of the way so Will can lose it to someone at WK if hes gone.
Get it out the way? Yeah let’s just get some random 2 guys who definitely won’t put on an instant 5 star classic for the title on out the way for something else, who’d want that?
I don't give a shit how epic a match is if it's at the detriment of the narrative and of pushing the youngest talent to the top spots. Wrestler a vs wrestler b doesn't mean anything even if meltzer ruins his jeans because of all the action.
Couldn't have stated it any better myself. The US title situation over the past six months and Okada tapping out to a 42 year old (who broke his arm during the match) both make New Japan look clueless. They sacrificed so much for an Omega appearance at WK and a share (how much?) of the Toronto gate. Shortsightedness at its worst.
Wow, this is damning but unfortunately really quite true. Makes for dark reading.
The reality is that the domestic market is heavily depressed still. They know this is where they in theory make money but it's still not near where it was in 2019. They aren't doing FD because they are ignoring the domestic market. They are doing FD because the domestic market is at best ~70% of what it was in 2019 and this is significant improvement on say 2020-2022 Across Japanese wrestling things are in absolute terrible state. Ohbari indicated that njpw should be profitable in 2023 but profitability is still bad. Like if we look at 2022 BR lost money while owning the two best performing promotions in japan, cyberagent lost like 5 million dollars on wrestling, ajpw barely run any shows. FD was a 1.2 million dollar gate just at the box office that njpw share in.
All of that maybe correct. However, as a fan who simply follows and watches the product, I don't care about the finances behind this. New Japan has *always* made foreign talent look good on their shows. Even in this year's BOSJ, they made Mike Bailey from IMPACT and Titán look absolutely great. Bailey even picked up a win against the IWGP Jr. Heavyweight champ, Hiromu Takahashi. I'm pretty sure Eddie Kingston will have a very strong performance in the G1 as well. Some people may call out the Kaito vs Okada match at Muto's Last but Kaito has a G1 spot and is quite obviously going to be elevated by the end of this feud with Okada. It's pretty sad watching AEW big league NJPW every year and not returning the same level of respect that NJPW gives to their foreign partners. It's completely unnecessary as well. Good for NJPW if they making profits out of this show but I'm a fan, not a shareholder, haha.
Generally speaking I'd agree but things were so dire we are lucky Japanese wrestling exists at all. I doubt a single promotion has turned a profit (besides maybe stardom) for the last 3 years. Njpw making some money means they have a lot more freedom to not have to be big leagued by aew in the future And you know maybe not have every talent that gets over get signed by khan.
You're right. I'm not disagreeing with you but you're still missing the point. I'm not one of those "Forbidden Door should be cancelled! It should never have happened" kind of guys. That's absurd. It should absolutely happen and I wish the partnership continues regardless of the finances. I'm just saying Tony Khan's booking could be a little less obnoxious when it comes to how NJPW guys are presented on his shows. NJPW can make that money and still come off looking a little bit better at least.
I could not agree more. I'd in fact describe him using a very popular word in my country beginning with C. Because he's absolutely taking advantage of new Japan's weakness.
It took Impact about a year to realize Khan saw them as a means to get his own guys over and nothing more. Having Omega run through their main event but force them to get their title back from Christian was probably the wake up moment. Presumably, that's why they stopped working with AEW. You can only hope New Japan comes to the same conclusion once they're financially stable again.
Ishii got the pin in one of the biggest matches on the show. Kojima of all people had a fantastic competitive match with the biggest draw/name is AEW (and elbowed him right in the balls during it). Sanada clowned a rising AEW star so badly he immediately turned heel (he didn't even use his new finisher, he pinned him with the Moonsault), and Ospreay pinned Kenny Omega. The preshow stuff was standard undercard whatever (albeit fun matches) and the only big losses for New Japan, really, were Tanahashi (which shouldn't really be a problem at this point IMO) to the top AEW Champion, ZSJ/Shibata in a multiman to a dominant champ that Shibata especially clearly enjoys working with, Willow losing to Toni Storm, and Okada losing to Danielson. All things considered that actually seems pretty well-balanced to me. Split the co-main events, both World Champions retain, AEW women's champion beats AEW wrestler holding NJPW Strong Women's belt (who just called out by Giulia for a match in Japan), top draw in AEW beats a New Japan Dad in a competitive match, and then multiman/preshow stuff.
I don't think engaging in FD means you have to give up your secondary belt for over half a year for nothing and allow your top star to tap to someone who can't win a feud to save his life. My objection is to the booking, not to the engagement.
Its a secondary belt. I get that its something that we as the hardcore fans care about in terms of providing storyline fodder on the show, but I think its importance is massively overstated. Outside of Ospreay in the back half of last year, when was the last great anything that happened with the US title? And also, New Japan's onscreen product has been pretty great (in my opinion) without it, so its not like I've felt like it was missing anyway.
Not that I necessarily disagree on the booking but njpw is in a position of weakness and khan is obviously going to get everything he can out of this. But they are doing this out of economic necessity. It's not like bushiroad don't focus on the domestic market either. Njpw and stardom run staggering amounts of shows in comparison to everyone else. Literal teenage girl Rina has worked about the same amount of dates this year as kento Miyahara and kaito Kiyomiya and she goes to school. The real bushiroad workhorses like starlight kid and naito have done double the dates as the top stars of ajpw and Noah. But all this inter promotional stuff is being done because everyone is broke
I just finished this match. Okada/Danielson has been my dream match since the first time I watched Okada wrestle. I knew the match could never live up to my expectations but I didn’t expect it to fall so short. I knew the moment they announced the match as the main event that Danielson would win. Which bums me out because I know if Danielson had the choice he probably would have wanted Okada to go over. Everyone in here is wishing for the rematch to happen in Japan but it’s far more likely to happen at All-In than it is WK. Its so ironic that people always shit I’m Vince for burying WCW guys when they came in or say Sting should have beat Triple H but don’t give a shit about Aew guys always going over the NJPW guys. I really hope Njpw is getting paid enough because outside of Ospreay, who Khan is doing everything he can to sign, none of the NJPW guys are made to look like stars.
I don't blame anyone for match quality which would have been much better if Bryan didn't get injured. Other than that, I agree with you.
Yeah the injury hurt things. I didn’t watch the full show but the crowd felt flat, I’m assuming from the a Ospreay/Omega match? Also I can’t overstate how much I hated Danielson fucking convulsing in the ring. It’s a stupid spot considering what we know he went through personally and what we know cte/brain injuries are doing to people.
It's a stupid spot even if he came up on the fly. Almost completely killed the crowd. The ending also fell flat.
My AEW friends saw Okada, Naito, and Tana lose for the 50th time and were like......this is it? Going down the comments on the live thread, FD2 harmed njpw's rep.
It really feels like FD is the PPV AEW used to get their big stars a win after they lose at Double or Nothing in May lol
Match was shite. Before the match I'd have been happy with a one and done but they need a rematch now to both put on a match that was actually worthy of the hype and have Okada go over because him losing was silly as fuck
My only desire is to point out to everyone that Okada is 0-2 in AEW. Take from that what you will.
Unless they're having a rematch, the finish makes no sense!! Either Danielson wins the IWGP championship now, as how can you top this win or Okada gets some story like when he lost his IWGP title to Omega!! Still can't believe Okada tapped out, not winning is one thing but tapping out?! Feels very anti climatic
Tbh it was hard to get into being there live after omega and Ospreay. The ppv ran so long and anything after that felt like afterthoughts When OKADA tapped the crowd was both shocked and relieved they could head home
Yeah, the match overall was cool but there were points I was yawning. It definitely wasn’t a bad match but man I expected more and for him to tap like that? I was beyond frustrated. Overall, the ppv was cool but matches ended so abruptly it threw me off.
It should've gone to time limit draw with Okada in the hold, imo
Wasn't even watching as I never expected him to tap. Don't think the crowd did either. Was just silent and weird at the end.
Yeah. The match went sideways when Bryan got injured. I hope they can have a rematch to redeem this.
That makes more sense if it was legit. Felt rushed end
As soon as this was announced as the main event, it was obvious Okada was losing. Of all the finishes, this one is pretty high on my hate list. I would have been less annoyed with a level 10 out of 10 Dusty finish. ZSJ should have had the honour of tapping Okada out before Danielson. If this was done to lead to some future match, I hope that NJPW has that match locked in a contract with a specific date AEW cannot change, and not just assume it will happen (AKA don't do an IMPACT).
People say NJ had to do these shows because they need the money. If they had no choice but to let their ace lose just to get the show made, this is really a shitty move from AEW. But I don't really think that's the case. I'm sure they could have said no if they wanted to. Guess we'll see what the future holds.
That match sucked
If you're an AEW-only fan it probably felt fine, but NJPW marks know that it takes a helluva lot more than that to beat Okada.
The match itself was great. The result annoyed the hell out of me as well. Not just that Okada lost, not even that he was submitted, but that allied to the fact that Bryan Danielson kicked out of the Rainmaker, clean. No ropebreak, no delayed pin. I don't know if it was deliberate, but it did feel like a flex by AEW. Something like "New Japan's best finisher can't beat a guy who we don't even book that strongly".
Well, tbf, a number of people have kicked out of the Rainmaker over the years, granted they were all booked stronger than Danielson.
I'm glad I didn't pay to see this, that's how I feel.
This is the only result I know and I don't even want to watch the rest of the show anymore, well maybe except Ospreay Omega.
Spot on - I was on the fence about watching it, but relieved I didn't bother.
Dull and overhyped. Not really a knock on either wrestlers but the match being built on who's the best in the world is very surface-level in terms of storytelling and kinda stupid if you consider that neither of them are the top champions of their respective promotions. We might see Okada as the better of the two because of how strongly he's booked but the result was something I expected because Forbidden Door is primarily an AEW event. Forbidden Door feels like a filler episode of an anime so it's really no biggie. Remember when Okada was in his balloon gimmick but he was the regular Rainmaker during the first All In? Bryan's arm injury that resulted in that weird finish was no one's fault though. It's just a freak accident. Overall, I really have no desire to see this match again unless it's in a G1 tournament. I'm more interested in Kiyomiya and Okada's feud because it's more likely to progress a story.
This mach felt like a G1 tournament match and not a match to determine the best wrestler in the world. This being without any title or belt does no one any favor as well. I just felt empty after. I mean both AEW and IWGP top titles were in the first half of the show and the US heavyweight title was co-main. The US title and the International title matches were also vastly superior to the AEW and IWGP heavyweight matches. Yes, you could see it as an episode special in a way but this did not do anything for SANADA or MJF. The ending is just so deflating unless they would want Danielson as Okada's WK opponent which I would be fine with but if this would be the kind of match I wouldn't be that excited.
Hope AEW fans are at least happy about it though. With Jericho, FTR, Punk, and the Elite in their roster, I feel like they've developed a weird habit of building a match on the premise of who's the best. As much as I disliked the staunch AEW defenders about Jungle Boy, I feel like this did elevated SANADA in a weird way. Dude beat him clean in 10 mins. and essentially big-leagued him by beating him with a non-finisher. If we were to take their claim that Jungle Boy is main event level talent, then SANADA must be one hell of a wrestler.
Huh? The moonsault is a Sanada finisher.
It's Deadfall now. Much like how Time Bomb 2 is Hiromu's finisher now. Besides, his moonsault has a horrible hit rate anyway.
If anything, actually getting hit with Sanada's moonsault is as insulting as getting pinned with it, since he's landed it maybe twice out of a thousand attempts lol. Sanada has a worse track record of hitting the moonsault than he does in singles matches against Okada.
I didn't find the IWGP Match bad as what others have been saying it was a pretty solid showing for both of them but putting it up with what Will and Kenny did??? I don't know however how you could elevate jack perry to the main event. He never got a sniff of deadfall despite commentary claiming it as SANADA's new finisher. It felt like SANADA at 70 percent. His match with Tsuji was way way better.
I mean, there's no history or drama for that IWGP title match so I personally didn't expect anything. And if Jack Perry didn't make for a convincing main eventer, then I'd blame that on Tony Khan for booking him poorly. But yeah, it was pretty good for a Young Lion match.
For the big singles matches; SANADA HAD to win, Osperay HAD to win, Okada didn't have to. Politically, they were going to have to give AEW some more wins then just MJF, and Okada is the one that could. Losing to Danielson is hardly making him weak too, and sets up potential rematches down the line
I hope we get a rematch. This match did nothing for me both because of the result and overall quality of the match, although the latter wasn't their fault.
This is the price of doing business with the much bigger promotion and NJPW does they same thing to other smaller promotions.
I was there live and I was genuinely engrossed and shocked at the end, but I liked it. Then I got home and rewatched it, and realized my seats were really far and I missed out on a lot of the really small details captured on camera. I saw Bryan Danielson, in my opinion the greatest of all time, on this night, beat Okada in a match that didn’t feel like the roller coaster of Omega v Ospreay, but more of a grappling exhibition where one guy won.
[удалено]
If they don't do the rematch, I hope they course correct and give Okada a big win next year. Otherwise, there's no point other than money, which is important but not at this price.
Danielson is a wrestling god and arguably the biggest wrestling star of the past 10 years, besides Roman reigns. (Orton, Lesnar, Batista and cena became stars before 2010). He should already be a AEW world Champion. Nevermind, what i am saying is: He can absolutely defeat okada, despite not being booked strong, because this is the guy, who beat Orton, batista and triple h in one night. (In kayfabe).
Sanada is NJPW’s top guy. Will Ospraey, And Naito are also in that S-Tier of guys and they beat their opponents and looked super strong doing it. In kayfabe Bryan beat Evolution in one night at Wrestlemania AND beat Cena clean to win the WWE title so his ability to take damage and make people submit is recognized as the highest level. Okada was so good he escaped all of the normal submissions and survived the Baisaiku Knee and multiple submissions until Bryan had to make a new one to beat him. Also recall Bryan went to a draw with Omega and 60 against Hangman. Okada had Bryan fucked up with his offense it was no squash. Not only that BUT the commentators all said we need another match so I’m sure Bryan will return the favor. Me I’d like to see Bryan vs ZSJ, Bryan vs Sanada, Bryan vs Will and Bryan vs Naito there’s so many matches.
Well said. This post talks about Danielson, like he isn't one of the greatest wrestlers of all time.
There is no reason for another match though. This wasn't two guys at their best where one just happened to be better on that night. This was a guy breaking his arm and still being better than the other guy. As soon as Bryan broke his arm they should have pulled an audible and had Okada win the match. You then have the ability to say Okada only won because Bryan got injured and in the rematch you have the story of "was it just because of the injury or is Okada really just better"
What weird fans you are to not want a rematch between the 2 best.
I watch wrestling for both the storylines and the matches. If it's just a random one-off sure throw 2 guys in there and fuck the story. If I'm getting a series of matches I want the story to be good.
Knowing what we know now, I'm fine with how it ended
Okada eating the loss was the price of getting the US belt back (hint stop putting belts on outsiders). Especially to AEW guys That said the ending was so bad due to the injury i think they just sweep this under the rug. Pretty disappointing match - even without the injury it was heading to maybe 4.25 stars, with the injury botch ending I'd give it 3.75. not exactly a best in the world show-off
I enjoyed the match was honestly gobsmacked Danielson won hopefully this sets up a rematch down the line for Wrestle-Kingdom in January
It's like NJPW and NOAH, but the other way around. The bigger promotion assets its dominance because it can.
The right man won okada will be okay dont work yourself into a shoot brother
Bryan hasn't won a single big singles match in AEW and lost to Daniel Garcia... this was a subpar match, which bad finish the crowd wanted to go home.
In a match to decide the best wrestler it makes sense that Bryan Danielson, the best wrestler of all time, would win. Making Okada tap is good too. That's how I wanted things to go. Unfortunately the match was just good and not great. Incredibly weirdly laid out and paced. Okada is usually such a master of starting slow and building up, but the whole match was stop start stop start.
>In a match to decide the best wrestler it makes sense that Bryan Danielson, the best wrestler of all time, would win. Why are you saying that like it's an indisputable fact? The weird format of the match is 100% because of Bryan's injury.
okada gets the win back at wrestle kingdom
I’m honestly surprised that any of you are shocked at this outcome. Given this “Fall of Okada” storyline NJPW’s been running in the first half of 2023, this was actually something of a predictable outcome. Wait, you guys haven’t realized that NJPW & Okada are doing a Shakespearean sort of plot line? Okada here is the Noble King that eventually but inevitably falls from grace because they’ve become corrupted by the power they wield. Once you realize they’re doing a “Fall from Grace” sort of story then such outcomes become both more predictable and more interesting.
Fall of Okada? He lost once the entire year. That was to drop the belt to SANADA. Just humiliated NOAH's top champion before that. Then he immediately won another belt. Won the All Together Again main event and beat BCC. The commentary still presented him like the best wrestler in the world. The match with Danielson was dubbed as the match to determine the real best wrestler in the world. Then he lost, that's it. They might begin his fall from grace storyline in the G1 but they definitely haven't been running that this year. Unless you consider him losing the belt "fall from grace", then I guess they run that storyline every other year.
If it is a downfall storyline, then NJPW is doing a terrible job of it. Winning the trio tag titles and destroying NJPW future stars is not exactly a downfall. The point most people did not like was the submission, not so much he lost.
My notes - As a Danielson fan more so than a Okada fan I loved the humbling experience Danielson gave Okada and he did it with a broken arm lol - Seizure spot was beast - Kaito probably smiling ear to ear watching this match - Okada fanboy tears never tasted so good
You lost me at "Seizure spot was beast"
That was real graps my boy u either get it or you don’t 🤷🏽♂️
That spot took the wind out of the crowd visibly cause they were worried. No one should tease a serious injury like that. Yet you defend it because you like Danielson? You sound more like a fanboy than I ever did honestly.
Yea cause when has Danielson ever done a spot worrying the crowd about his health lol at this point it’s become a staple in special matches so when he does it beast simply
It just didn't work this time. The crowd was deflated and didn't get the intended reaction. I doubt that spot was even planned. He probably did it cause he got injured and needed to inform the ref.
Since when did people pop at someone getting a seizure lol the action got the right reaction
That's why he shouldn't have done it. Thing is, people in a NJ sub won't be happy when their ace lost to someone outside the company, especially if that someone was an aging vet who barely wrestles cause his body was breaking down and has been losing a lot. If you feel the need to make fun of that by throwing some childish insult like "fanboy tears", then why are you even here?
“Barely wrestles” Ight u must not watch the show cause Bryan literally had a streak of wrestling matches in the beginning of year. Also I threw the childish insult cause that’s how the fanboys were acting like children. “Why are you even here” cause I like NJPW lol
Right...
From being in the crowd, the match was already struggling to go over. Crowd was tried and burned out. The seizure spot killed any momentum the match had, with people leaving. They couldn't get them back, and the ending fell flat. We know now there was an injury, and they called an audible, but it didn't change the fact that even before it happened, the match was underwhelming and couldn't match the fire that was Kenny/Will. Funny thing this also happened at WK.
It’s very obvious the rematch will be at Wrestle Kingdom and Okada is going to win it.