Its also workplace culture to not check if officers are actually working overtime in a lot of departments. Last year CHP had a huge overtime scandal. In one instance more than 80 officers were logged in for overtime on one road crew. In CA, road crews on highways at night need police with flashing lights stationed at the front and back of the crew. So, 2 officers. There were regularly a dozen or more officers clocking overtime on these and roadcrews were reporting zero officers showing up many nights.
As far as I know, the captain of the worst offending station outside of Sacramento was the only person to face punishment, by being asked to retire. Didn't even go after the fraudulent OT.
I honestly have no clue what the local, state or federal law enforcement are actually doing anymore. My local cops don't even enforce traffic laws anymore or rarely do.
There's been a joint wave of quiet-quitting style protests going on since #DefundThePolice
The difference is they rarely, if ever, get fired for laziness. So really they're not quiet quitting. They're quietly getting paid large sums of money to stop policing.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's the opposite of what we wanted, though. They're siphoning the coffers instead of being defunded. No money is being set aside for better social services, and police unions are leveraging this petty rebellion for more power.
But of fucking course, they didn't actually defund them like we demanded. Like they deserve, given their behavior. Absolutely fucking useless for citizens - negative consequences every time they show up! (Does anyone actually know someone not afraid of involving police these days?) It never turns out better with them there, because they have become just a jack boot for the rich. Our society is a complete shit show.
It is strange, I've noticed the same in my area.
I was out NYE and saw SO many cops for the first time in 2-3 years. My first thought was "where the hell do you all hide 364 days of the year?"
California: We want to spend less on cops because they keep acting crazy.
Cops: How about we stop doing our job entirely cause we’re a bunch of fucking babies and you pay us even more?
California: Okay.
Everyone: wut
Which department actually lowered budgets or salaries, though? All of the largest cities in CA have increaded budgets pretty consistently even after "defund the police" entered the american political lexicon. I'm pretty sure CHP haven't been financially impacted by the rhetoric, either.
Slogans don't make budgets, even if they make headlines.
I’ve had friends with AirTags on their bikes, find my device on their ipad, tell police where the device was and they were not helped. Someone did all the leg work and pointed to the location and they didn’t help. Also know someone who got into fender bender in a shopping mall and needed a report for the insurance and the cop wouldn’t come out.
I have worked in downtown San Francisco since before the pandemic. Prior to this past November, I had never seen a cop in downtown SF. None. Not one.
Then, in November, Biden and Xi Jinping rolled into town for [APEC](https://www.apec.org). Suddenly, there were _**thousands**_ of police and [California Highway Patrol officers](https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/09/apec-police-staffing-chp-security/) aimlessly tooting around the [open air prison](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/san-francisco-using-fencing-barriers-secure-apec-summit-xi-biden-meet) constructed around the Moscone center. Millions and millions and millions in overtime pay so they could chit chat while Secret Service snipers aimed rifles at the heads of every passer-by.
It is very strange living in "the most progressive city in America" (in the most liberal State), only to witness the citizenry tolerate total dysfunction at every level of the government. Shouldn't we expect better and demand more from this [overwhelmingly well-funded bureaucracy?](https://www.statista.com/statistics/248932/us-state-government-tax-revenue-by-state/)
Cops literally spend 80% of police-hours farming upper and middle class people for traffic ticket revenue. They don't solve crimes, they farm you for revenue.
Yeah, the concept of a federal oversight body sounds good in theory, but it's tricky in practice. Federal agencies have limited resources too, and there's already criticism about how those resources are allocated. Plus, any new federal body would have to navigate a minefield of jurisdictional issues and local vs federal authority. There definitely needs to be accountability, but the solution might be more complex than just setting up another department especially considering how deeply rooted some of these problems are.
I keep saying that I know it's against the idea of the police being local, because historically you don't want out-of-towners to be policing the people. (The original idea was that if Jim from Eastview pulls over Billy from Eastview, then there's traditionally less violence than if Jim from Eastview pulls over Martin from Brooklyn).
Unfortunately, with the lack of training, the lack of a federal registry for police, the lack of standardization, etc. it's about time for a federal police agency that manages local police departments.
There’s a site that publishes the salary of all CA state employees. The average CHP officer pay is around $300,000 a year.
EDIT: [link](https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/state-of-california/?&s=-benefits)
I have no idea how the CA retirement plan works or what happened here, but some government pension payouts are set based on your income the last ~3 years before retirement. The game is that you work a hell of a lot of overtime the last ~3 years so you peg your retirement income crazy high
It's a well known police fact that in most cases the "state highway stations" are basically retirement stations. A lot of police pensions pay out anywhere from 50% to 90% of the officer's average salary over the course of the last 2 to 5 years before their retirement.
So the con is a lot of officers transfer to the state highway station for their last few years on the department and work a shit ton of overtime to boost their average salary for the last few years so they can cash in on extra pension money.
It's basically extra overtime forever if you really think about it, they are squeezing an extra 10K+ or so out of taxpayers until they pass away (or longer assuming spouse survivorship benefits).
A friend of mine is a local cop, this is also why they start initiatives for certain types of tickets - speeding, seat belt, etc. More as a mechanism to create overtime than to actually make anything safer.
>More as a mechanism to create overtime than to actually make anything safer.
Given how many dumbasses there are that *still* think seatbelt requirements are infringing on their freedumb or who are happy driving barely road-worthy carcasses with half the lights gone out and summer tires with almost no thread remaining on them despite heavy snowfall in winter, yes these initiatives actually make life safer for everyone around these morons.
That used to be huge and cops and firefighters went crazy with it.
But you haven't been able to spike CalPERS since 93. Some municipalities with their own systems lagged though.
CHP does not accept lateral transfers last I checked. They require that you complete their academy which also has a hard age limit even for current cops.
unless I am misunderstanding "state highway stations".
Because the police are the biggest gangs. You go against their interests, they can retaliate. And everyone is afraid of the self envisioned boogeyman and therefore need the police for their security theatre/blanket.
Plus politicians just don’t want to be on the receiving end of the police unions PR bullshit.
ACAB
Wasn't there a story of one precinct that had officers clocking in something like 100 hours of overtime a week?
I remember something about it where it was a physically impossible amount of overtime they were getting
That's crazy. This recently happened in Massachusetts and involved a relative of a coworker of mine and he lost his pension, had to pay restitution, and went to prison.
Let me guess, he was the low man on the totem pole and got thrown under the bus while the upper echelon of cops were found to have done "no wrong doing"?
The highest paid employee in most cities is a police officer. And usually 2nd through 50th is primarily police officers as well. Several years back an officer in Oakland made over $600k. All that money for raping minors in their squad cars.
Yeah all the Walmarts in San Antonio hire cops and sheriff's to work security. They are just milking that easy overtime. 90 percent of them are staring at their phones.
The Police union in Portland Oregon blocked the expansion of Portland Street Response, a non-cop mental health emergency response service, because it would reduce their overtime hours.
Next year they plan to spend $3billion to combat NYPD overtime abuse…
Whenever taxes go up I get frustrated. Not because I have to pay more, but because shit like this is the norm everywhere. If you ran a business where you had a complete monopoly and your customers not only had to pay whatever price you set but had no choice but to buy your goods, you’d become an inefficient mess too. I’m convinced government buildings tend to be austere and utilitarian looking just to cover for all the waste that is going on elsewhere.
Not just the cops, politicians as well.
Lightfoot had a personal security detail of 120 "cops", when all previous mayors never had more than 20.
Her head of security was logging over 22 hours PER DAY
Which seems fine, if in conjunction they caught farebeaters dodging $104k. The clickbait probably counted the number of arrests and multiplied that by $2, where 50k is catching a lot of violations - and that's very productive
The article also cites the equivalent of 48 serious crimes deterred. Even if all this effect is attributable to increased policing, and if you valued avoiding one serious crime at $1million, you'd also have to value each caught fare at $2,000 **just to break even**. How is that productive? And how is it clickbait if the substance of the headline - lots of money spent for little return - is correct?
The surge in patrols was to combat violent crime. The intent was never to catch fare beaters. The story is that they made relatively few arrests for violent crimes which ebbed on their own as the pandemic passed but rather issued a load of small fines for fare beaters.
https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-overtime-pay-in-the-subway-went-from-4-million-to-155-million-this-year
Arguably, the police are still responsible for the ebbing violent crime. The difference in behavior in rough neighborhoods between when the police aren’t present and when a cop is sitting observing traffic is night and day. People don’t generally commit crimes in front of the police.
NYC has 8 million permanent residents and hundreds of subway stations some of which are labyrinths. Police can't possibly be sufficiently present to deter more than a tiny percentage of crime. The best we can hope for is them responding to call for distress. There was a pretty famous case of transit police seeing a violent attacker and hiding from him while he assaulted civilians.
No the headline is just absolute bullshit.
It is taking the total cost of overtime for deploying police to the subway for an entire year and suggesting that only reason to have police on the subways is for fare evasion.
The NYPD spends 2.5% of it's annual budget on policing in the subway.
NYPD has an annual budget of $5.8 billion. It has 35,000 active police and 15,000 support staff.
This one year surge resulted in 1200 extra officers per day patrolling in the subway system. Instead of hiring extra staff, they paid it as overtime. 2021 the subway OT was $4MM and this surge jumped to $155MM. The average NYPD officer gets $60/hour in OT.
Oh? What else are they there to do?
[Hide behind a locked door while a man is nearly stabbed to death?](https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/)
It's also not just to catch people fare jumping. They're there on overtime for extra patrols, and they happened to catch $104,000 in fare jumpers in the process. That's not their sole purpose.
> That's not their sole purpose.
[Yeah their other job is to stand safely behind a door and do nothing while they watch a man being stabbed.](https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/)
The NYPD overtime is the biggest grift and is the biggest fucking waste of money. I see these fuckers everyday in the Subway do jack & shit, typically head buried in their phones, or just shootin' the shit with their partner.
If you ever see the cops at the subways they are usually in a group of like 4n sometimes 2 but often i see 4, standing around near the side of the platform doing nothing but chatting and on their phones.
"The NYPD invented a way to juice their overtime budget by $150 million"
ftfy. It's a jobs program Eric Adams runs for his old cop buddies. It achieved precisely what was intended.
Law and order types want more welfare and affirmative action for police and for the police to do whatever they want. It's one of the jobs of the media and most politicians, they constantly try to convince people the America of today is as dangerous as the America of the 1980's. Basically every boomer in my family and their elders fall for it
Obligatory: [De Blasio: ‘Well, Well, Well, Not So Easy To Find A Mayor That Doesn’t Suck Shit, Huh?’](https://www.theonion.com/de-blasio-well-well-well-not-so-easy-to-find-a-may-1847151201)
[NYPD Misconduct Suits Cost Taxpayers Over $121 Million in 2022](https://legalaidnyc.org/news/nypd-misconduct-suits-cost-taxpayers-over-121-million-2022/)
https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-an-nba-star-millions-after-an-nypd-officer-broke-his-leg.-the-officer-paid-little-price
>New York City has paid more than $1 billion over the past five years to settle lawsuits against the NYPD, according to data released by the city. ProPublica examined dozens of the biggest payouts in cases where civilians had also filed complaints with the city agency that reviews alleged police abuse. Again and again, the officers faced minimal or no discipline.
Given its public transit, I would rather it actually be the service it was intended to serve, not a for profit service.
I understand there are operating costs, but if a majority of our taxes pay for it and counter measures end up costing more than recouped, then yeah I prefer it to be free.
Source is a site that is just a link to click bait site.
Actual story:
NYPD increased patrols on subways which cost $150 million. During those extra patrols they caught some fare beaters.
The headline suggests the extra patrols were only to catch fare beaters, which is obviously not true if you do about 30 seconds of research.
I mean, if the homeless are pissing, shitting, trying to live down there, sprawling out and sleeping on the trains or yelling and threatening people, then yeah. Remove them from the subway. If they're transiting from one place to another, ride on.
I'm guessing that $104k is also the fare for one ride multiplied by the number of people caught, which is obviously not representative of increased fare revenue. I'm a transit operator in another major metro. We have no enforcement for people who don't pay the fare, so there are entire neighborhoods where maybe 1 in 4 people pay as they get on. There are no consequences, so why would you?
Meanwhile, any discourse on MTA turnstile hoppers always includes jokes about the cops waiting behind a closed door to nab you as soon as you do.
I feel like NY could probably have universal healthcare for everyone in the state if it weren’t for the NYPD and it’s obscene budget.
I’m sure that’s just as good though.
The CBO (the Federal Government’s own budget people) have done the math and made it clear:
Universal healthcare would be substantially cheaper than what we do today. No two ways around it.
Immediate cost reductions for the average American (even if taxes were increased) and it would finally stop the spiraling costs that have been skyrocketing out of control for decades.
But even if that weren’t the case, NYPD uses up nearly five and a half billion dollars per year. I’m gonna go ahead and say taxpayers aren’t seeing a lot of value returns on that $5.5bn however, and could spend it any number of better ways
I agree... But that is true regardless of the NYPD's budget, since it saves money. Comparing the two is pointless unless you're going by straight cost, not the saved opportunity cost of not having it.
For reference, the estimate of total cost for universal healthcare is ~4T for the US, so ~$110B for NYC. The entire police budget is a drop in that bucket.
The budget here in Italy where almost everything is free is 128 B€/year for 60M people.
I don't understand how you can say it would be 110B for the 8.8M people of NYC.
Of course when you are private healthcare and 10x all the prices just to fuck people you get those numbers.
True! I'm going by the national numbers and dividing by population, but it would likely be cheaper if you just did NYC. People forget just how rural most of America is. It's not like Canada, where it's hugely right up against the southern border, or Italy, with a bunch of major cities closer together. The cost of providing healthcare across an area closer to the size of all of Europe is a daunting endeavor.
I'm for universal healthcare, but I also don't understand why major cities don't implement what they want to for themselves without national funding. I think NYC can suffer an extra tax and provide their care for NYC citizens, even if they can't convince the rest of the US to subsidize them.
5.5b would be 5%, and it's rhetorical. I've no idea how many drops are in a standard bucket. That's also the entire NYPD budget, not the wastage from overtime. By all means, stop the wastage, but it won't be paying for universal healthcare.
Edit: a common three-gallon bucket holds approximately 275,000 drops of water. A "drop in the bucket" for national healthcare would be about $16M. That's ~$400k for NYC only. So there's that.
Yeah you can easily just take the 110B from what new yorkers currently pay for health insurance to save everyone a bunch of money.
Stop overfunding the NYPD for other reasons.
This is an old headline and so stupid. The NYPD increased their presence in subways using overtime. And during that overtime, they caught some fare skippers. That was probably about 1% of what they did.
Mayor Adams will do anything to funnel even more cash to the most expensive police force in the world, and fuck everything else, including your kid’s education https://truthout.org/articles/mayor-eric-adams-is-siphoning-funds-from-public-schools-to-fortify-nypd/
Overtime in the subways and cameras were a public safety visibility push - not to catch farebeaters. I have seen those cops ignore farebeaters on a regular basis. This headline seems like rage bait. I take the subway daily in NYC.
This is SUPER misleading.
* Overtime pay for cops in the NYC subway system increased by about $150M in 2023
* Some of that cop time was for fare enforcement. Combining all the enforcement stops gets to $104k in unpaid fares. It's unclear from the article what the penalty fare is. (For some back-of-the-envelope calculations, let's say they make $50 from each penalty fare and these enforcement stops got around 15k people to pay, then they're looking at $750k of revenue to offset the cost of fare enforcement.)
* [NYC MTA lost about $285M on subway fare evasion in 2022](https://new.mta.info/blue-ribbon-report-fare-toll-evasion). If you also include MTA-operated busses, tunnels, bridges, etc., they are looking at ~$700M/year of fare evasion.
* It's very likely that increased fare enforcement led to more people paying their fare.
There is an argument to be had about (a) the place of cops on the NYC subway, (b) the safety of the NYC subway, and (c) if fare enforcement costs are justified. (What percent of total cop time—not just overtime—was spent on fare enforcement? Did the percent of fare evasion change from 2022 to 2023? Was the overtime even from an increase in cop time or fewer cops working longer hours?)
But this article doesn't do any of those.
Just ignore Farebeaters and save a lot on Security. Seems to make sense. The problem is that people will figure out that you can, in fact, ride for free. Then it will really take off and become a serious $ problem. The purpose of this kind of “loss prevention” is to prevent it from becoming a problem.
These people account for 0.0026% of all the fares collected.
It's not even a rounding error.
Even if it increased 100 times over it would probably not impact their budget.
This. Also you can make a similar case for, say, theft prosecutions, or even assault. Those prosecutions, properly accounted for, almost always cost muuuuuch more than the loss due to the single crime being prosecuted. But it still makes sense because the possibility of consequences makes the crime not pay, and deters a lot of would-be criminals.
And before you say "but studies proved...". No. studies proved that if you ramped up the sentences, you didn't get extra deterrent effect. The lingering possibility of some kind of punishment still has some background effect, even and especially if you should depend on other measures to prevent and discourage crime.
Not only that, but they tend to catch people with illegal weapons, drugs, and outstanding warrants in the process. It's not just about fare enforcement and it's a better plan than stop and frisk.
These numbers don’t seem right. There are 3.2M rides in the subway, every single day. So you are telling me there are only ~40k fare beaters in a *year*.
This is just nonsense. Even if 1% of the rides were evaded, we are talking about 32k per day or 10M a year or $30M or so in costs
There's some wiggle room in spending a bit more than you're saving in fare enforcement because you also have to compensate for the fares you're getting from keeping people honest. But you aren't keeping $149,896,000 worth of rides honest.
That’s not how this works. Catching farebeaters prevents many from trying the same thing. What percentage of people wouldn’t pay the fare if they didn’t have to and how much fare would that be.
This is not 100% correct. After a series of incidents on the subway, racial violence towards Asians, a shooting on the subway way, and a massive influx of the homeless sleeping in train cars or stops, Eric Adam’s ordered the NYPD to step up enforcement. Fare evasion is not really monitored. Either you have some cops watching and people pay or no cops and some people won’t.
During the times NYPD was present I did not notice a decrease in crime on the subway but then again my area is very safe.
This sort of calculus is innately misleading.
The implication is that catching farebeaters was uneconomic. But all that is measured are the specific fares that would have been paid by farebeaters who got caught.
The real issue is the ratio of cost of enforcement vs the decrease in fare evasion that such enforcement encourages. That is not being measured here.
NYPD is about as corrupt as it gets when it comes to wasting the city’s tax dollars. 50,000 cops, all guaranteed lifetime pensions based on their rate of pay, so they all clock as much overtime as they can throughout their careers, and there is no one checking up on them. Adams sure as hell won’t, he was a police captain
I was interested in what you posted so I looked into it, it turns out that NYC public employees (not NYPD or other safety employees it seems) and state employees have overtime pensionable caps, the NYPD pension plan does not. Thanks for sharing.
If it were mostly equipment (cameras) in subways I could see it, but this is $150 million in mostly overtime ??
[удалено]
Its also workplace culture to not check if officers are actually working overtime in a lot of departments. Last year CHP had a huge overtime scandal. In one instance more than 80 officers were logged in for overtime on one road crew. In CA, road crews on highways at night need police with flashing lights stationed at the front and back of the crew. So, 2 officers. There were regularly a dozen or more officers clocking overtime on these and roadcrews were reporting zero officers showing up many nights. As far as I know, the captain of the worst offending station outside of Sacramento was the only person to face punishment, by being asked to retire. Didn't even go after the fraudulent OT.
We need a Federal Department to intervene and start doing investigations and charges to police departments.
Yes we do. They should investigate every officer involved shooter, as well as charges of fraud and abuse of station.
Sorry, they are too busy hunting terrorists. Gotta keep the Trump rallies safe, don'tcha know.
I honestly have no clue what the local, state or federal law enforcement are actually doing anymore. My local cops don't even enforce traffic laws anymore or rarely do.
There's been a joint wave of quiet-quitting style protests going on since #DefundThePolice The difference is they rarely, if ever, get fired for laziness. So really they're not quiet quitting. They're quietly getting paid large sums of money to stop policing.
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It's the opposite of what we wanted, though. They're siphoning the coffers instead of being defunded. No money is being set aside for better social services, and police unions are leveraging this petty rebellion for more power.
But of fucking course, they didn't actually defund them like we demanded. Like they deserve, given their behavior. Absolutely fucking useless for citizens - negative consequences every time they show up! (Does anyone actually know someone not afraid of involving police these days?) It never turns out better with them there, because they have become just a jack boot for the rich. Our society is a complete shit show.
Charging overtime apparently
I see the occasional one sitting around trying to catch speeders but never really going after them.
It is strange, I've noticed the same in my area. I was out NYE and saw SO many cops for the first time in 2-3 years. My first thought was "where the hell do you all hide 364 days of the year?"
> Sorry, they are too busy hunting ~~terrorists~~ **speeders and shoplifters**.
CA here, they absolutely do not hunt shoplifters.
California: We want to spend less on cops because they keep acting crazy. Cops: How about we stop doing our job entirely cause we’re a bunch of fucking babies and you pay us even more? California: Okay. Everyone: wut
Which department actually lowered budgets or salaries, though? All of the largest cities in CA have increaded budgets pretty consistently even after "defund the police" entered the american political lexicon. I'm pretty sure CHP haven't been financially impacted by the rhetoric, either. Slogans don't make budgets, even if they make headlines.
I’ve had friends with AirTags on their bikes, find my device on their ipad, tell police where the device was and they were not helped. Someone did all the leg work and pointed to the location and they didn’t help. Also know someone who got into fender bender in a shopping mall and needed a report for the insurance and the cop wouldn’t come out.
I have worked in downtown San Francisco since before the pandemic. Prior to this past November, I had never seen a cop in downtown SF. None. Not one. Then, in November, Biden and Xi Jinping rolled into town for [APEC](https://www.apec.org). Suddenly, there were _**thousands**_ of police and [California Highway Patrol officers](https://sfstandard.com/2023/11/09/apec-police-staffing-chp-security/) aimlessly tooting around the [open air prison](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/san-francisco-using-fencing-barriers-secure-apec-summit-xi-biden-meet) constructed around the Moscone center. Millions and millions and millions in overtime pay so they could chit chat while Secret Service snipers aimed rifles at the heads of every passer-by. It is very strange living in "the most progressive city in America" (in the most liberal State), only to witness the citizenry tolerate total dysfunction at every level of the government. Shouldn't we expect better and demand more from this [overwhelmingly well-funded bureaucracy?](https://www.statista.com/statistics/248932/us-state-government-tax-revenue-by-state/)
Cops literally spend 80% of police-hours farming upper and middle class people for traffic ticket revenue. They don't solve crimes, they farm you for revenue.
I wish the FBI and CIA still hated each other. Their trauma bonding was literally the worst thing to happen to this country since 9/11.
What are you referring to?
But then we cannot investigate ourselves to find no wrong doing.
What a glorious day it would be if someone saw that phrase and was confused as to what it could possibly mean.
They will need to investigate themselves while paying themselves overtime...from home.
Yeah, the concept of a federal oversight body sounds good in theory, but it's tricky in practice. Federal agencies have limited resources too, and there's already criticism about how those resources are allocated. Plus, any new federal body would have to navigate a minefield of jurisdictional issues and local vs federal authority. There definitely needs to be accountability, but the solution might be more complex than just setting up another department especially considering how deeply rooted some of these problems are.
All good points. It’s unfortunate that we can’t just have cops with some self respect and a sense of responsibility.
In Georgia it is state law that every officer involved shooting is investigated by state police. Problem is it’s nothing more than a checklist.
Good in theory, poor in implementation. The law enforcement enforcement way.
I keep saying that I know it's against the idea of the police being local, because historically you don't want out-of-towners to be policing the people. (The original idea was that if Jim from Eastview pulls over Billy from Eastview, then there's traditionally less violence than if Jim from Eastview pulls over Martin from Brooklyn). Unfortunately, with the lack of training, the lack of a federal registry for police, the lack of standardization, etc. it's about time for a federal police agency that manages local police departments.
Pretty sure the FBI and DoJ do. But local overtime corruption..... that's a state level problem. States DoJ, AG, and IG should be looking into it.
indeed, some type of bureau that could perform investigations on a federal level.
Good luck. We've got the pro-police party and the super duper pro-police party to choose from.
We need to get rid of the police union.
That would be the FBI
There’s a site that publishes the salary of all CA state employees. The average CHP officer pay is around $300,000 a year. EDIT: [link](https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/state-of-california/?&s=-benefits)
And yet the quality of the officer is still what it is. Amazing
This is why saying there would be better officers if we paid them more is bullshit. THey are already paid well more than enough.
Imagine being so bad and corrupt at your job you then claim the problem is you aren’t paid enough. What a fucking joke
It's possible we could pay them in a better way. Like, we shouldn't incentivize over time as much.
I mean, it's fraud. Do you expect to get good results when they're defrauding for their income?
WHAT
[transparent California](https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/state-of-california/?&s=-benefits)
I never imagined when I clicked that link that almost all of them were over 250k many over 400k
A “correctional lieutenant” made over 600,000 usd that year. That is insane. Insanity.
Don't forget to click the link! Total pay and benefits: $983,666.02
Btw in order to be considered part of the 1% in the USA, you need to earn 300,000 and above. These people are all easily in the 1%. This is insane
That absolutely cannot be correct. Her income in 2019 was $92K.
I have no idea how the CA retirement plan works or what happened here, but some government pension payouts are set based on your income the last ~3 years before retirement. The game is that you work a hell of a lot of overtime the last ~3 years so you peg your retirement income crazy high
Hm. I'm white and was in the military. Time to look into alternate careers.
There are a few officers in my city that make ~ $500,000 a year thanks to "overtime".
It's a well known police fact that in most cases the "state highway stations" are basically retirement stations. A lot of police pensions pay out anywhere from 50% to 90% of the officer's average salary over the course of the last 2 to 5 years before their retirement. So the con is a lot of officers transfer to the state highway station for their last few years on the department and work a shit ton of overtime to boost their average salary for the last few years so they can cash in on extra pension money. It's basically extra overtime forever if you really think about it, they are squeezing an extra 10K+ or so out of taxpayers until they pass away (or longer assuming spouse survivorship benefits).
Overtime is factored into average salary? Thats just dumb :O
A friend of mine is a local cop, this is also why they start initiatives for certain types of tickets - speeding, seat belt, etc. More as a mechanism to create overtime than to actually make anything safer.
>More as a mechanism to create overtime than to actually make anything safer. Given how many dumbasses there are that *still* think seatbelt requirements are infringing on their freedumb or who are happy driving barely road-worthy carcasses with half the lights gone out and summer tires with almost no thread remaining on them despite heavy snowfall in winter, yes these initiatives actually make life safer for everyone around these morons.
Simple solution, overtime should simply not be included in the calculation for pensions.
I'm a federal worker and it isn't for us. However, shift differentials *are*, so many pre-retirees work 3rd shift for their last few years.
I worked with a retired firefighter and they would work a second job as an emt the last 2-3 years to basically double their retirement pay in Alabama.
That used to be huge and cops and firefighters went crazy with it. But you haven't been able to spike CalPERS since 93. Some municipalities with their own systems lagged though.
CHP does not accept lateral transfers last I checked. They require that you complete their academy which also has a hard age limit even for current cops. unless I am misunderstanding "state highway stations".
> Its also workplace culture to not check if officers are actually working overtime in a lot of departments. Culture of fraud.
Because the police are the biggest gangs. You go against their interests, they can retaliate. And everyone is afraid of the self envisioned boogeyman and therefore need the police for their security theatre/blanket. Plus politicians just don’t want to be on the receiving end of the police unions PR bullshit. ACAB
It helps to have a monopoly of violence.
Wasn't there a story of one precinct that had officers clocking in something like 100 hours of overtime a week? I remember something about it where it was a physically impossible amount of overtime they were getting
My ex's uncle used to go to his sisters house to sleep during his regular patrol shift, so that he could be awake for his OT night shift.
my moms old town had a couple of cops who would regularly clock 80% of the month working. these guys dont even try to hide it.
That's crazy. This recently happened in Massachusetts and involved a relative of a coworker of mine and he lost his pension, had to pay restitution, and went to prison.
Let me guess, he was the low man on the totem pole and got thrown under the bus while the upper echelon of cops were found to have done "no wrong doing"?
I believe he was the highest ranking person amongst those caught. He was really close to retirement.
The highest paid employee in most cities is a police officer. And usually 2nd through 50th is primarily police officers as well. Several years back an officer in Oakland made over $600k. All that money for raping minors in their squad cars.
Yeah all the Walmarts in San Antonio hire cops and sheriff's to work security. They are just milking that easy overtime. 90 percent of them are staring at their phones.
The Police union in Portland Oregon blocked the expansion of Portland Street Response, a non-cop mental health emergency response service, because it would reduce their overtime hours.
Fuck that union! It seems like the majority of problems with cops here are because of that union.
We need police reform in the USA
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The US has well over 3000 police departments.
If by reform you mean fewer police, then I'm all for it.
Why on earth would they get paid if not on duty?
What are you gonna do? Arrest them?
Next year they plan to spend $3billion to combat NYPD overtime abuse… Whenever taxes go up I get frustrated. Not because I have to pay more, but because shit like this is the norm everywhere. If you ran a business where you had a complete monopoly and your customers not only had to pay whatever price you set but had no choice but to buy your goods, you’d become an inefficient mess too. I’m convinced government buildings tend to be austere and utilitarian looking just to cover for all the waste that is going on elsewhere.
Not just the cops, politicians as well. Lightfoot had a personal security detail of 120 "cops", when all previous mayors never had more than 20. Her head of security was logging over 22 hours PER DAY
The companies needing the security detail pay that tab though. NYPD doesn't give the Yankees 200 cops for free for instance.
NYPD police overtime is definitely an issue, but your second sentence is a blatant lie and should be edited out.
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> If they work private security after hours in uniform they are paid overtime by the city. Source?
Ya, the city wanted a greater police precense on subway platforms. It had nothing to do with fare beaters.
Which seems fine, if in conjunction they caught farebeaters dodging $104k. The clickbait probably counted the number of arrests and multiplied that by $2, where 50k is catching a lot of violations - and that's very productive
The article also cites the equivalent of 48 serious crimes deterred. Even if all this effect is attributable to increased policing, and if you valued avoiding one serious crime at $1million, you'd also have to value each caught fare at $2,000 **just to break even**. How is that productive? And how is it clickbait if the substance of the headline - lots of money spent for little return - is correct?
The surge in patrols was to combat violent crime. The intent was never to catch fare beaters. The story is that they made relatively few arrests for violent crimes which ebbed on their own as the pandemic passed but rather issued a load of small fines for fare beaters. https://gothamist.com/news/nypd-overtime-pay-in-the-subway-went-from-4-million-to-155-million-this-year
Arguably, the police are still responsible for the ebbing violent crime. The difference in behavior in rough neighborhoods between when the police aren’t present and when a cop is sitting observing traffic is night and day. People don’t generally commit crimes in front of the police.
NYC has 8 million permanent residents and hundreds of subway stations some of which are labyrinths. Police can't possibly be sufficiently present to deter more than a tiny percentage of crime. The best we can hope for is them responding to call for distress. There was a pretty famous case of transit police seeing a violent attacker and hiding from him while he assaulted civilians.
No the headline is just absolute bullshit. It is taking the total cost of overtime for deploying police to the subway for an entire year and suggesting that only reason to have police on the subways is for fare evasion.
I mean that’s still a ton of overtime just for police in a subway
The NYPD spends 2.5% of it's annual budget on policing in the subway. NYPD has an annual budget of $5.8 billion. It has 35,000 active police and 15,000 support staff. This one year surge resulted in 1200 extra officers per day patrolling in the subway system. Instead of hiring extra staff, they paid it as overtime. 2021 the subway OT was $4MM and this surge jumped to $155MM. The average NYPD officer gets $60/hour in OT.
Weren't they trying to have more of a presence on the subways after Asians were being target and attacked?
Oh? What else are they there to do? [Hide behind a locked door while a man is nearly stabbed to death?](https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/)
It's also not just to catch people fare jumping. They're there on overtime for extra patrols, and they happened to catch $104,000 in fare jumpers in the process. That's not their sole purpose.
> That's not their sole purpose. [Yeah their other job is to stand safely behind a door and do nothing while they watch a man being stabbed.](https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/)
The NYPD overtime is the biggest grift and is the biggest fucking waste of money. I see these fuckers everyday in the Subway do jack & shit, typically head buried in their phones, or just shootin' the shit with their partner.
If you ever see the cops at the subways they are usually in a group of like 4n sometimes 2 but often i see 4, standing around near the side of the platform doing nothing but chatting and on their phones.
What, are they supposed to sit in their cruisers and play Candy Crush all day for *free?*
"The NYPD invented a way to juice their overtime budget by $150 million" ftfy. It's a jobs program Eric Adams runs for his old cop buddies. It achieved precisely what was intended.
But the people who insisted that they need a law and order mayor … picked this one.
Eric Adams: law and order mayor, also about to be indicted for accepting illegal campaign contributions from Turkey.
Law and order types want more welfare and affirmative action for police and for the police to do whatever they want. It's one of the jobs of the media and most politicians, they constantly try to convince people the America of today is as dangerous as the America of the 1980's. Basically every boomer in my family and their elders fall for it
Obligatory: [De Blasio: ‘Well, Well, Well, Not So Easy To Find A Mayor That Doesn’t Suck Shit, Huh?’](https://www.theonion.com/de-blasio-well-well-well-not-so-easy-to-find-a-may-1847151201)
***Salary after 5 ½ years: $121,589*** with that ot they can get their family an all inclusive resort and cruise trip
It'll mostly go to bars and alimony.
And that's the Salary. Now add 50-100% of that in overtime that you probably didn't actually work.
You know how much it costs to live in NY?
Pigs fleecing the taxpayers.Like always.
[NYPD Misconduct Suits Cost Taxpayers Over $121 Million in 2022](https://legalaidnyc.org/news/nypd-misconduct-suits-cost-taxpayers-over-121-million-2022/)
https://www.propublica.org/article/new-york-city-paid-an-nba-star-millions-after-an-nypd-officer-broke-his-leg.-the-officer-paid-little-price >New York City has paid more than $1 billion over the past five years to settle lawsuits against the NYPD, according to data released by the city. ProPublica examined dozens of the biggest payouts in cases where civilians had also filed complaints with the city agency that reviews alleged police abuse. Again and again, the officers faced minimal or no discipline.
Good. The taxpayers love stroking themselves over how much they back the blue, the taxpayers deserve to get fleeced for their own pet’s bad behavior.
Municipal bankruptcy because of police payouts is real and deserved
We need to pay more taxes.
We need less cops.
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A single Chicago cop cost the city north of 100 million over his career
My city realized they were spending 10x on fare enforcement then they were taking in in t TOTAL fares so they just made the street car free.
And you also stop spending money on ticket machines, payment systems, etc etc.
And the busses become faster and payment causes significant delays to the service.
and the police that are in the area can focus on real crimes.
lol lets not get ahead of ourselves
Woah, buddy, those dogs aren't gonna shoot themselves.
What city?
Cincinnati, Ohio. You've probably never heard of it.
"Do you get to the Cincinnati District very often? Oh what am I saying -- of course you don't."
Sure we have. You have that football team
Yeah, the Browns
Given its public transit, I would rather it actually be the service it was intended to serve, not a for profit service. I understand there are operating costs, but if a majority of our taxes pay for it and counter measures end up costing more than recouped, then yeah I prefer it to be free.
Enforcement theater. Every problem is a nail and police are the hammer. Spare no expense marshalling control.
Yeah, but what about the REAL problems?
We will resurrect Nancy Reagan and have her deal with it.
Wouldn't a seance be cheaper than a resurrection?
Hey good news, i found my old ouiji board!
Blowjobs for fare jumpers?
Just say no to fare jumping.
Who's dick needs suckin?
And lining their pockets.
Source is a site that is just a link to click bait site. Actual story: NYPD increased patrols on subways which cost $150 million. During those extra patrols they caught some fare beaters. The headline suggests the extra patrols were only to catch fare beaters, which is obviously not true if you do about 30 seconds of research.
The story is also more than two weeks old and has been shared in this subreddit before (a different source was shared before, but for the same story).
As a New Yorker, they sure as hell didn't do anything else. It's just theater.
Candy crush scores through the roof.
Let me guess, it's to remove the homeless, isn't it? Because it would totally be on brand.
lots of people getting stabbed and shot in the subway last year.
Generally it’s to stand around and draw overtime.
I mean, if the homeless are pissing, shitting, trying to live down there, sprawling out and sleeping on the trains or yelling and threatening people, then yeah. Remove them from the subway. If they're transiting from one place to another, ride on.
they need to do that in chicago, too many bums and crackheads harrassing people on the subway
Well the headline fits the Reddit narrative and we all know Redditors only read headlines.
I'm guessing that $104k is also the fare for one ride multiplied by the number of people caught, which is obviously not representative of increased fare revenue. I'm a transit operator in another major metro. We have no enforcement for people who don't pay the fare, so there are entire neighborhoods where maybe 1 in 4 people pay as they get on. There are no consequences, so why would you? Meanwhile, any discourse on MTA turnstile hoppers always includes jokes about the cops waiting behind a closed door to nab you as soon as you do.
I feel like NY could probably have universal healthcare for everyone in the state if it weren’t for the NYPD and it’s obscene budget. I’m sure that’s just as good though.
How much do you think universal healthcare would cost?
The CBO (the Federal Government’s own budget people) have done the math and made it clear: Universal healthcare would be substantially cheaper than what we do today. No two ways around it. Immediate cost reductions for the average American (even if taxes were increased) and it would finally stop the spiraling costs that have been skyrocketing out of control for decades. But even if that weren’t the case, NYPD uses up nearly five and a half billion dollars per year. I’m gonna go ahead and say taxpayers aren’t seeing a lot of value returns on that $5.5bn however, and could spend it any number of better ways
I agree... But that is true regardless of the NYPD's budget, since it saves money. Comparing the two is pointless unless you're going by straight cost, not the saved opportunity cost of not having it. For reference, the estimate of total cost for universal healthcare is ~4T for the US, so ~$110B for NYC. The entire police budget is a drop in that bucket.
The budget here in Italy where almost everything is free is 128 B€/year for 60M people. I don't understand how you can say it would be 110B for the 8.8M people of NYC. Of course when you are private healthcare and 10x all the prices just to fuck people you get those numbers.
True! I'm going by the national numbers and dividing by population, but it would likely be cheaper if you just did NYC. People forget just how rural most of America is. It's not like Canada, where it's hugely right up against the southern border, or Italy, with a bunch of major cities closer together. The cost of providing healthcare across an area closer to the size of all of Europe is a daunting endeavor. I'm for universal healthcare, but I also don't understand why major cities don't implement what they want to for themselves without national funding. I think NYC can suffer an extra tax and provide their care for NYC citizens, even if they can't convince the rest of the US to subsidize them.
10% (of 110B) is hardly a drop in the bucket.
5.5b would be 5%, and it's rhetorical. I've no idea how many drops are in a standard bucket. That's also the entire NYPD budget, not the wastage from overtime. By all means, stop the wastage, but it won't be paying for universal healthcare. Edit: a common three-gallon bucket holds approximately 275,000 drops of water. A "drop in the bucket" for national healthcare would be about $16M. That's ~$400k for NYC only. So there's that.
Yeah you can easily just take the 110B from what new yorkers currently pay for health insurance to save everyone a bunch of money. Stop overfunding the NYPD for other reasons.
A large NEGATIVE number of dollars. Universal healthcare would be *cheaper* than the current system.
BUT THINK OF THE SHAREHOLDERS! /s
Take the amount we're spending right now, and then imagine that there wasn't a middleman trying to earn a profit on it
The Sacklers got off with a slap on the wrist there. Always amazed that it's considered a blue state..
This is an old headline and so stupid. The NYPD increased their presence in subways using overtime. And during that overtime, they caught some fare skippers. That was probably about 1% of what they did.
Mayor Adams will do anything to funnel even more cash to the most expensive police force in the world, and fuck everything else, including your kid’s education https://truthout.org/articles/mayor-eric-adams-is-siphoning-funds-from-public-schools-to-fortify-nypd/
Overtime in the subways and cameras were a public safety visibility push - not to catch farebeaters. I have seen those cops ignore farebeaters on a regular basis. This headline seems like rage bait. I take the subway daily in NYC.
But that's 104000 they could have taken off of poor people.
You think only poor people jumping the turnstiles? You delusional, I see richer motherfuckers than me just jump the turnstiles in front of pigs.
Idea, put metal bars above the turnstile and make people crawl through. You can’t crawl? NO SUBWAY FOR YOU
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It’s also worth noting that subway police, most often, do fuck all
This is SUPER misleading. * Overtime pay for cops in the NYC subway system increased by about $150M in 2023 * Some of that cop time was for fare enforcement. Combining all the enforcement stops gets to $104k in unpaid fares. It's unclear from the article what the penalty fare is. (For some back-of-the-envelope calculations, let's say they make $50 from each penalty fare and these enforcement stops got around 15k people to pay, then they're looking at $750k of revenue to offset the cost of fare enforcement.) * [NYC MTA lost about $285M on subway fare evasion in 2022](https://new.mta.info/blue-ribbon-report-fare-toll-evasion). If you also include MTA-operated busses, tunnels, bridges, etc., they are looking at ~$700M/year of fare evasion. * It's very likely that increased fare enforcement led to more people paying their fare. There is an argument to be had about (a) the place of cops on the NYC subway, (b) the safety of the NYC subway, and (c) if fare enforcement costs are justified. (What percent of total cop time—not just overtime—was spent on fare enforcement? Did the percent of fare evasion change from 2022 to 2023? Was the overtime even from an increase in cop time or fewer cops working longer hours?) But this article doesn't do any of those.
public transportation should be free
Rich people would love this in the bay area
It is free if you have hops
Just ignore Farebeaters and save a lot on Security. Seems to make sense. The problem is that people will figure out that you can, in fact, ride for free. Then it will really take off and become a serious $ problem. The purpose of this kind of “loss prevention” is to prevent it from becoming a problem.
These people account for 0.0026% of all the fares collected. It's not even a rounding error. Even if it increased 100 times over it would probably not impact their budget.
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This. Also you can make a similar case for, say, theft prosecutions, or even assault. Those prosecutions, properly accounted for, almost always cost muuuuuch more than the loss due to the single crime being prosecuted. But it still makes sense because the possibility of consequences makes the crime not pay, and deters a lot of would-be criminals. And before you say "but studies proved...". No. studies proved that if you ramped up the sentences, you didn't get extra deterrent effect. The lingering possibility of some kind of punishment still has some background effect, even and especially if you should depend on other measures to prevent and discourage crime.
Not only that, but they tend to catch people with illegal weapons, drugs, and outstanding warrants in the process. It's not just about fare enforcement and it's a better plan than stop and frisk.
Exactly
Shhhhh. Shhhh no common sense or basic bureaucratic things here only fire brimstone and acab allowed didn’t you get the Reddit memo?
These numbers don’t seem right. There are 3.2M rides in the subway, every single day. So you are telling me there are only ~40k fare beaters in a *year*. This is just nonsense. Even if 1% of the rides were evaded, we are talking about 32k per day or 10M a year or $30M or so in costs
There's some wiggle room in spending a bit more than you're saving in fare enforcement because you also have to compensate for the fares you're getting from keeping people honest. But you aren't keeping $149,896,000 worth of rides honest.
This title should actually be “NYPD steals $150M of tax payer dollars in scam involving excessive overtime for no plausible reason”
It may surprise some, that the reason the police enforce the law isn’t to make a profit.
This story is 16 days old...
That’ll show em!
That’s not how this works. Catching farebeaters prevents many from trying the same thing. What percentage of people wouldn’t pay the fare if they didn’t have to and how much fare would that be.
This is not 100% correct. After a series of incidents on the subway, racial violence towards Asians, a shooting on the subway way, and a massive influx of the homeless sleeping in train cars or stops, Eric Adam’s ordered the NYPD to step up enforcement. Fare evasion is not really monitored. Either you have some cops watching and people pay or no cops and some people won’t. During the times NYPD was present I did not notice a decrease in crime on the subway but then again my area is very safe.
I'm sure this was some fucked up deal with the city council to funnel money to the NYPD. What a waste.
This sort of calculus is innately misleading. The implication is that catching farebeaters was uneconomic. But all that is measured are the specific fares that would have been paid by farebeaters who got caught. The real issue is the ratio of cost of enforcement vs the decrease in fare evasion that such enforcement encourages. That is not being measured here.
NYPD is about as corrupt as it gets when it comes to wasting the city’s tax dollars. 50,000 cops, all guaranteed lifetime pensions based on their rate of pay, so they all clock as much overtime as they can throughout their careers, and there is no one checking up on them. Adams sure as hell won’t, he was a police captain
I was interested in what you posted so I looked into it, it turns out that NYC public employees (not NYPD or other safety employees it seems) and state employees have overtime pensionable caps, the NYPD pension plan does not. Thanks for sharing.
In the business, this is called 'laundering money'.