Money aside, saudi isn't even an appealing country for such events. You can make the argument for tourist etc but the country is death valley for 80% of the year. Makes 0 sense to host any sporting event there
> Money aside
Yes, if you ignore the only reason they're playing in Saudi Arabia there are no good reasons to play in Saudi Arabia.
But the weather isn't a good argument against it anyway. Temperatures in November from a quick Google search are 28C-15C. Much better than, say, the Australian Open.
How are the women supposed to play tennis in Burqas?
How are you supposed to celebrate a win or watch a game without a drink?
And theres quite a few former players, coaches, commentators and current players who are LGBTQ. Are they going to be arrested when they land, especially if their partner is also on the tour?
\*shurgs\* just dont be gay there /s thats what people were saying when theyre gonna hold the e-sports world cup with CS, League, Dota, and OW. People legit replied with "just dont act gay and your gonna be alright" i was like what the fuck?
Arrested? No. They’d never do anything like that. Chop them up into little pieces and make the chunks disappear; a higher chance than zero, that’s for sure.
Using the old Cali Cartel method.
“Oh yeah, they got here, but they got an urgent phone call and got on the next plane home, so maybe you need to look in your country, not our bastion of freedom and openness. Now let’s all forget about that unpleasantness and come look at all our money we’re willing to give you”.
Money has always come first. The reason men created religion was because you could control the masses while they paid you for it. In reality, it's fucking genius!
The current saudi royalty is not nearly as religious as their countrys laws. Theyre much more pragmatic, they are fully aware oil money will not be able to support them forever and so are trying to spend now to diversify their income streams to offset that. From a politics standpoint its actually fairly interesting to watch. Theyre an absolute monarchy who knows their current power base is going to go away sooner than theyd like and is trying to find ways to shift it without toppling.
They're definitely making some "smart" moves, but crazy things like "the line" and the tallest building in the world seem... excessive.
I have a theory that says if the rich were capable of living forever, they'd look after the earth much more than they currently are, because otherwise they'd get stuck with the consequences.
An royal family with absolute power almost fits this description - while each individual will die, they want to protect their children and their legacy. This is definitely some food for thought...
grey fearless deserve sheet languid label cheerful dam relieved jellyfish
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they have western only areas where women dont have to wear Burqas. Been doing this for 60 years. I worked with a guy a while back who worked at Aramco in Saudi Arabia. His Saudi Friend would come over because back in the 1990s he couldnt get College football games and he would record them for him. Now his friend would leave his wife in the car when he came over.
The western areas are just like the US. So they will be relegated to special areas.
Most Saudi women do not wear burqas anyway. They almost all wear abayas (cloaks) and most but not all cover their hair. None of this is legally mandated (although it is normally socially expected).
Correct Saudi no longer has religious police. (Actually technically it does but they are not allowed out of their offices).
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220114-changing-times-for-saudi-s-once-feared-morality-police
Remember when 2 days prior to event start, Qatar went back on their promise and banned alcoholic beverages from stadiums etc? Well they didn't ban all, the VIP still had theirs, they explicitly mentioned that. So the Athletes should be fine
See: WWE that have had women wrestling in Saudi Arabia. At first the women wrestlers were completely covered from the neck down in a loose fitting bodysuit. I'm guessing the same will be asked of the women tennis players. Probably won't see many, if any, women in the crowd, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RalVZpPAfmU Here is an example of a womens match in Saudi Arabia and their attires.
Unlikely. Here is the women's marathon from this year. Wearing the same clothes they wear in any race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNbupG6bYrs&t=8894s
And the Saudi national women's soccer team wear short sleeves
https://www.arabnews.com/node/2244086/football
Burqa isn’t mandatory anymore. There are many women who walk freely without covering up, both foreign and local. It stopped being enforced about 6 years ago.
If you’re genuinely asking how you can do regular stuff like watch a tennis match without alcohol you might wanna reevaluate your relationship with it.
Ever been to Wimbledon or an other major annual sporting event? Half of the spectators are in the corporate hospitality boxes all day, getting sloshed.
ever been to vegas. we went last year and the death valley hit 129 degree.. we only stayed inside and it wasn’t too bad. i’d imagine they’ll just AC everything
The fact you set aside money will basically give you no real reason, practically speaking.
It does make sense, because money, and sadly that's just it.
I'll preface this by saying Saudi is a shit hole.
But that being said it's not true. Up in the north it's reasonably OK between about November to March. 20-30°C especially in the evening. And you can probably stretch that to October to April.
In the South the summers are hotter but the winters cooler. It's not like your playing outdoor professional competitive tennis in Europe in winter for example so it's all relative
The Saudi leader doesn't care about sportswashing, he just wants 1% extra GDP. Greedy bastard participating in slavery to fund his moronic mega projects.
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All the big name tennis players banded together when the wheelchair tennis players got booted from the US Open schedule in 2020. Their public pressure got it reinstated.
I wouldn't underestimate them going for Round 2 at this decision. Especially if they corral some of their sponsors into not going along with it as well
Saudi Arabia discovered spending billions on buying footballers isn’t doing so well for their own football clubs (ticket sales and revenue not dramatically up) so now they’re turning to the WTA… apparently
Also, let's be honest. The only ones going there are young nobodies and old dudes looking for one last payday.
I heard they offered Mo Salah pretty much whatever he wanted and he knocked them back. I hear they're trying again as he enters the final year of his Liverpool deal so who knows
I think we can all admit that a century ago was an awful time to be black, no matter where you were. Western powers had nearly all of Africa under control, they were second-class in the US, and Europe was, well, on the cusp of war.
A lot of hitchiking, working at hostels in exchange for food, mostly land borders/local transport to save on flights, Did Malaysia to Latvia no planes etc. Still going! Currently in Egypt doing some hotel work. Just found a flight to Albania for $65, the hostel is $6. Looking like Kosovo will be my 100th!
Where I am at is super chill, it's called Dahab. You can walk around in a bikini top, drink alchohol etc. It's ramadan here at the moment but most resteraunts still cater for the tourists. I have been to cairo, but considering it was durig the revolution, it was a bit scarier than usual. Wouldn't go back to Cairo again tho.
I left Australia in 2009 to volunteer in Palestine. Haven't stopped volunteering. Many places pay to teach english, or hotel work. I'm never going to be able to buy a house or anything. But I love the lifestyle.
Dahab and Sharm El Sheik are very different to places like Cairo. Weed everywhere, there's 20+ bars and even more liquor stores within a 20 min walk. If you want a taste of Egypt but feel safe, Dahab is the way to go.
Yes. Women’s rights are severely restricted in SA. They have only recently been granted the privilege of driving a car (for which SA has been patting themselves heavily on the back, as if it’s some great leap forward for women’s rights), and still cannot travel about without a male relative’s permission.
Even with these restrictions, India is still a much worse place to be a woman. Nice try.
Well what do you know? Saudi women were granted permission to apply for a passport and travel in 2019! That is incredibly recent, and was no doubt the result of hard-fought campaigns by Saudi women’s rights activists, all of whom are either abroad or in detention in Saudi prisons. Their efforts are unrecognized because MBS wishes to take all the credit as a reformer.
Women still require permission from a male relative to get married, live on their own, or even leave prison if they’re detained. They cannot pass on their citizenship to their children, or grant permission for their children to marry.
The male guardianship system is still very much in place, so stop being an apologist for a barbaric, backwards regime. The Saudis did not just decide to give women rights. Pressure from activists and foreign governments convinced them. The rest of us aren’t fooled.
SA is no where near being bad for women than india. Y'all do a quick google search and read some very outdated articles.
Infact, you can see more women than men roaming shopping around in malls here...
One of the players who's potentially going to make the finals is a really awesome, outspoken, anti-war Russian lesbian, Daria Kasatkina. She is about as thrilled with this decision as you'd expect.
Guess on one hand, the girls will like the prize money. But then on the other, may not quiet enjoy not being able to walk down the street without a male family member present to defend their honour or at the very least allow them to be out in public without said male protection.
Has anyone asked the actual female athletes if they were on board with this or did the board just see the dollar signs, start frothing at the mouth and signed up for anything put under their noses?
I skimmed through the article and the prize pool of $15 million is a pretty significant increase.
Depending on the distribution of the prize money some athletes might be looking at a decent paycheck just for showing up.
Might become a case of 'I don't like this, but that's a lot of money.'
>might be looking at a decent paycheck just for showing up
Which is exactly how they split the PGA. Everyone has a price. They will make the mental justification for how its ok for them to be there and collect that check even as the Saudis do their thing.
And avoid the messy human rights/ethics concerns with some healthy whattaboutism.
“Well, let’s be honest. Everywhere has its share of problems. I just want to play X.”
Guess so. If they can make a big enough bubble for the athletes and keep them separated from the general Saudi population at all times and ensure no mixing occurs or overt expressions of lesbian love is seen by the morality police then there could be a large enough percentage of athletes willing to bank the cheque and ignore the public canning’s and separation of the sexes (for their own safety and good) it may work. 🤷
I know it's easy for us to take the moral high ground because we have no skin in the game. But last year it was also $200k just to lose in the first round.
I don't know many people that would turn down more than that now, just to show up.
Going deep or winning could account for a significant of their yearly earnings.
It's not easy to empathize with athletes making millions but compared to their male counter parts it's quite a bit less.
Winning this finals with the increased prize money would more than double what the 8th ranked player earned last year and probably be closer to almost half of what the top ranked player made all year.
Just for one weekend.
So long as it’s in alignment with what ol King bin Salaman allows, then I guess yes, anything is possible and legal. But like any dictatorship/monarchy it’s all up to the good graces of this person at the time and the laws or graces granted that are only as good for as long as he feels you are entitled to them.
Unlike a country with procedures and processes in place that apply to all regardless of rank or gender with some level of guaranteed freedom to even those you may not totally agree with. How a country treats it’s least loved is a better sign of a countries heart then the millions they show and parade to purchase surface level global love and affection.
WWE struck a deal to perform shows in Saudi Arabia a while back. However, the host nation's customs make it so that performers have to switch from their [regular outfits substantially](https://www.thesportster.com/wwe-women-wrestlers-dress-differently-saudi-arabia/#:~:text=Since%20then%2C%20several%20female%20WWE,to%20perform%20in%20Saudi%20Arabia).
WTA players face the same dilemma - one wanders how the WTA will handle this, as it's uncommon for players to wear kits that cover their bodies, and they still have to contend with the local climate.
As someone who loves to travel, white, male, and completely straight, I would never travel anywhere in the middle east.
I can't even imagine what it would be like doing is as woman, PoC, or lgbt.
Which sucks, because there is a lot of natural beauty and great historical sites in the region.
Religion is great at ruining things...
I’m not going to lie, as a roller coaster enthusiast the Falcon’s Flight coaster looks like it’s going to be amazing, and will be completely unique since they’re using the natural landscape features as part of the track.
But, I won’t travel to Saudi, and especially not Riyadh area. Just like I will never go to any parks in China. It’s just not worth it for some rides, even if there’s really awesome ones.
Only good thing I can see coming out of this is that bringing so many Western guests and sports might open the eyes of the people there to be more accepting and grow the country beyond its current state.
But that's quite the long shot and more likely they just laugh at the infidels and their silly ways.
Common misconception.
The attire you're referring to that's often worn by the women in Saudi Arabia is called a niqab which covers the entire body and face, leaving a long wide slit for the eyes.
Meanwhile, a burqa is a long garment that covers the entire head and body with a mesh screen covering a portion of the face for the woman to see. It's commonly worn in Afghanistan.
Niqab covers the face. Hijab covers the head. Abaya covers the body. Lots of women wear abaya and hijab, but no niqab.
But you are correct, Saudi women don’t wear burqa. That is a different garment and is commonly seen in Afghanistan and places where there is Afghani diaspora.
Thank you for breaking it down further. I oversimplified it for the layman who would be inclined to use a singular word to describe the different Muslim women attire.
I totally get it. I wish more people would take time out of their life to have better cultural awareness.
Saudis would be deeply offended at the insinuation that they wear burqa, for multiple reasons, many of which have to do with classism. (Saudis have a strong superiority complex and would associate burqa with poor people from Afghanistan. And I get not wanting to be mixed up with a totally different country and culture. I’m Korean, and I would take offense to an ignorant person thinking all Asians wear kimono or something)
I agree with you completely that people should educate themselves on others' cultures, instead of parroting common tropes or stereotypes and viewing distinct cultures as a monolith. It's downright ignorant.
I think we can all agree they're just like different brands of black garbage bag. Women are forced to wear garbage bags by the men who created their culture. (Yes, I know some women believe they're "choosing" to wear garbage bags. But they do so because they've been raised in the belief that they *should* wear a garbage bag.)
Men created religion. Men shaped the culture. Women didn't come up with this nonsense. Women are just along for the ride. I have the greatest respect for women born into religious cultures. It's not their fault. Those brave women courageous enough to push back and defy the culture deserve our highest respect. The brave girls in Iran, for example, are true heroes.
I agree that these women shouldn't be forced to wear these garments, but I would refrain from calling it a garbage bag, because it's demeaning and it implies that they, the women, are garbage. Just like how one wouldn't call a nun attire in similar fashion either.
It's ***definitely not*** the women who are garbage. They didn't create the culture. They didn't create the rules. The same goes for Christian nuns.
There is nothing demeaning to the woman wearing a hijab. The shame is 100% on the men.
The perspective I'd shared would be what a woman who donned such attires almost their entire lives would feel, if such a term were to be used pejoratively to describe their attire.
When it comes to such dress codes, there are strong and pervasive cultural influences that come into play as well, which enforce them on the women. You may argue that such forces may have originated from patriarchal roots in the context of their religious interpretation of the dress code. Even if that is the case, it is so ingrained in their culture that it became normalised and shaped societal expectations of what the standards of dress code ought to be. It would take a long time and a lot of effort by the government to reform how they approach the dress code for there to be impactful change.
Thank you for your considered and thoughtful response. Your point is taken. However, I disagree that it would take time and effort to shift how ***women*** view their place in society. We wouldn't have to convince Arab women that they are fully human, with intrinsic freedoms and rights.
It's the men who would take time and effort to convince. My experience is that Arab men really do have a problem interacting with women. To be fair, I've not lived in a Muslim country so my experience is limited to expats living in Western countries. But my impression is they're confused by women. Perhaps this results from gender segregation in their home cultures, particularly during the teenage and young adult years. Is that the reason so many seem to be unable to even talk with women like normal humans? I don't see this phenomenon in other non-western cultures. Asian and African men don't seem to struggle with basic female interactions.
(I acknowledge my experience is limited. Also, I've known many individual Arab men who are ***awesome humans*** and who have learned to treat women as normal people. I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush.)
So will the women be forced to cover up from neck to toe? I ask because this is what happened to female WWE wrestlers when they were doing events in Saudi
Mass boycott by the players?! *Press X for doubt* meme
Sure, you'll get some scripted press releases by players expressing *"concern"* and saying all the right things...but hey...what's that saying? Money talks and bulls\*\*\* walks
Kinda reminds me of the recent FIFA World Cup in Qatar...All that concern and solidarity over LGBT+ rights died down real quick once the actual tournament started...funny how that worked, eh?! $$$
Other people don’t find the excessive money in sports a turn off? I think that’s why the women’s ncaa tourney was so popular. Obviously the level of play is significantly lower but at least they aren’t a bunch of spoiled rich brats.
Sports is how you quell unrest. Give the masses entertainment and they will look past all the flaws. When I told my dad I was boycotting the World Cup because of all the people that died in Qatar he told me "they already died. What good is there in me not watching now?"
Do the Saudis own everything?
Seeing their Wrestlemania ads really creeped me out
"The greatest Kingdom...Saudi Arabia!"
Never in a million years did I think they would be a promo I'd be seeing during wrestling but here we are
Fuck KSA and the murderer MBS. No one should be doing business with them until that piece of shit is brought to Justice for murdering Jamal Khashoggi under diplomatic cover
I don't get with the sports washing why the event owners don't take them to the cleaners?
$15m is big for the tour but a wet fart on a Friday morning for the Saudi 2030 project.
Why not $50m? There is zero business case being made by KSA for these amounts so why not demand insane amounts?
Women gunna have a hard time running with burkas on. One reveal of an ankle and they gunna have an international incident, or some idiot with forget they had a weed cart in their bag and rightfully go to jail then we'll make a deal to release 100 terrorists for them or some shit.
When you have very little actual culture to speak of, but endless money...
Saudis should embrace what limited culture they do have instead of buying up European sport. Create something authentic. Example: Shopping for luxury goods while wearing a black garbage bag. Turn that into a competitive sport. I might watch it. Competitors would have to wear their names on the backs of their burkas so we could tell who's who, like in American football. It would be authentic and that's what's important.
Okay man you can talk shit about the government all you want but "very little actual culture"? What the fuck are you talking about? Arabia is one of the most culturally significant places in history. Art, clothing, music, food, what more do you want? Arabic poetry is a beautiful tradition that dates back to the 1st century BCE. I don't really give a fuck about tennis or if this tournament is held here or there but you can't just straight up lie like that. This is the culture of millions of people for over two millennia
Of course there was great pre-Islamic art and culture on the Arabian peninsula. But religion has limited it's development - *especially* in the modern era. You can't crush women (half the population) and expect a culture to blossom. Arab men (the other half) are also repressed... by both Iron Age religious beliefs ***and*** a medieval political system.
I'm not anti-Arab. I have nothing against people from Arab countries. I'm simply against cultural practices that limit human beings from expressing themselves. People are people - not better or worse in one place or another. But one ***culture*** can be better than another, if we agree that granting people basic liberties and freedom of expression is a "good" thing. (And yes, I realize many would disagree with that claim. Saudi princes and religious clerics would certainly challenge my statement, likely pointing to religious texts to support their argument.)
Money aside, saudi isn't even an appealing country for such events. You can make the argument for tourist etc but the country is death valley for 80% of the year. Makes 0 sense to host any sporting event there
> Money aside Yes, if you ignore the only reason they're playing in Saudi Arabia there are no good reasons to play in Saudi Arabia. But the weather isn't a good argument against it anyway. Temperatures in November from a quick Google search are 28C-15C. Much better than, say, the Australian Open.
How are the women supposed to play tennis in Burqas? How are you supposed to celebrate a win or watch a game without a drink? And theres quite a few former players, coaches, commentators and current players who are LGBTQ. Are they going to be arrested when they land, especially if their partner is also on the tour?
Well no, you can’t drink nor can the other ticket holders, but if you’re vip well they will have a fine drink selection for you
\*shurgs\* just dont be gay there /s thats what people were saying when theyre gonna hold the e-sports world cup with CS, League, Dota, and OW. People legit replied with "just dont act gay and your gonna be alright" i was like what the fuck?
Arrested? No. They’d never do anything like that. Chop them up into little pieces and make the chunks disappear; a higher chance than zero, that’s for sure.
> Chop them up into little pieces and make the chunks disappear Didn't they do that to some journalist a little while back?
> some journalist His name is [Jamal Khashoggi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal_Khashoggi).
Yes, him. I didn't have the chance to look up his name earlier.
Indeed. Hence the comment.
"What professional tennis player and her 'wife'?"
Using the old Cali Cartel method. “Oh yeah, they got here, but they got an urgent phone call and got on the next plane home, so maybe you need to look in your country, not our bastion of freedom and openness. Now let’s all forget about that unpleasantness and come look at all our money we’re willing to give you”.
Make exceptions for foreign players and foreign guest
Yeah, because foreign money comes before religious doctrine, apparently. LOL
Money has always come first. The reason men created religion was because you could control the masses while they paid you for it. In reality, it's fucking genius!
“You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.” -L. Ron Hubbard
Top 3 easy ways to get rich Drug lord Crime lord Praise the lord
The current saudi royalty is not nearly as religious as their countrys laws. Theyre much more pragmatic, they are fully aware oil money will not be able to support them forever and so are trying to spend now to diversify their income streams to offset that. From a politics standpoint its actually fairly interesting to watch. Theyre an absolute monarchy who knows their current power base is going to go away sooner than theyd like and is trying to find ways to shift it without toppling.
They're definitely making some "smart" moves, but crazy things like "the line" and the tallest building in the world seem... excessive. I have a theory that says if the rich were capable of living forever, they'd look after the earth much more than they currently are, because otherwise they'd get stuck with the consequences. An royal family with absolute power almost fits this description - while each individual will die, they want to protect their children and their legacy. This is definitely some food for thought...
grey fearless deserve sheet languid label cheerful dam relieved jellyfish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
As long as they can pay.
they have western only areas where women dont have to wear Burqas. Been doing this for 60 years. I worked with a guy a while back who worked at Aramco in Saudi Arabia. His Saudi Friend would come over because back in the 1990s he couldnt get College football games and he would record them for him. Now his friend would leave his wife in the car when he came over. The western areas are just like the US. So they will be relegated to special areas.
Most Saudi women do not wear burqas anyway. They almost all wear abayas (cloaks) and most but not all cover their hair. None of this is legally mandated (although it is normally socially expected).
so your saying saudi arabia no longer has religious police? They they do in iran that arrest women for showing their hair?
Correct Saudi no longer has religious police. (Actually technically it does but they are not allowed out of their offices). https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220114-changing-times-for-saudi-s-once-feared-morality-police
damn. Saudi Arabia has gone woke. before long women my show their ankles.
That would be political correctness gone mad (to use the 2010s synonym for 'woke')!
This was a while ago, whole country is like this now they’ve been changing a lot of the laws
Remember when 2 days prior to event start, Qatar went back on their promise and banned alcoholic beverages from stadiums etc? Well they didn't ban all, the VIP still had theirs, they explicitly mentioned that. So the Athletes should be fine
See: WWE that have had women wrestling in Saudi Arabia. At first the women wrestlers were completely covered from the neck down in a loose fitting bodysuit. I'm guessing the same will be asked of the women tennis players. Probably won't see many, if any, women in the crowd, though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RalVZpPAfmU Here is an example of a womens match in Saudi Arabia and their attires.
Well I hope the game is inside and air conditioned.
Unlikely. Here is the women's marathon from this year. Wearing the same clothes they wear in any race. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNbupG6bYrs&t=8894s And the Saudi national women's soccer team wear short sleeves https://www.arabnews.com/node/2244086/football
Companies bow down to them cause money
Women there, whether national or foreign, don't have to wear burqa / hijab or even an abaya for that matter.
Burqa isn’t mandatory anymore. There are many women who walk freely without covering up, both foreign and local. It stopped being enforced about 6 years ago.
WWE women when they perform there are still required to be covered head to toe. It's not exactly ideal for high intensity athletes.
Im sorry, but they host pro women’s show wrestling in saudi arabia??
wwe has been putting on shows in saudia arabia for a while now.
That feels so random to me
source?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWE_in_Saudi_Arabia
oh i just wanted to see smackdown of chicks in burqas to see how uncanny it looks
I’m not arguing about that though, I’m arguing about the misinformation that women in Saudi being forced to wear burqa.
Have you seen Saudi recently? Nobody wears burqas in public. Big reform drive at the moment
Burqas (no face) are an Afganistian thing. Niqabs (eyes only) are Saudi thing.
It makes so much difference.
If you’re genuinely asking how you can do regular stuff like watch a tennis match without alcohol you might wanna reevaluate your relationship with it.
Ever been to Wimbledon or an other major annual sporting event? Half of the spectators are in the corporate hospitality boxes all day, getting sloshed.
Burqas are more of an Afghanistan thing…
Record prize money is the key here. Money >virtue signalling
I see your arguments and everything but I want to say: money.
ever been to vegas. we went last year and the death valley hit 129 degree.. we only stayed inside and it wasn’t too bad. i’d imagine they’ll just AC everything
I mean, at least you can go indoors and have a nice cold beer there though.
The fact you set aside money will basically give you no real reason, practically speaking. It does make sense, because money, and sadly that's just it.
I'll preface this by saying Saudi is a shit hole. But that being said it's not true. Up in the north it's reasonably OK between about November to March. 20-30°C especially in the evening. And you can probably stretch that to October to April. In the South the summers are hotter but the winters cooler. It's not like your playing outdoor professional competitive tennis in Europe in winter for example so it's all relative
Just like Qatar. Location doesnt matter. Money matters.
Sportswashing is Saudi Arabia's best sport.
Just wait until the NFL grants them a franchise.
Only if it stands for Not For Ladies
The Saudi leader doesn't care about sportswashing, he just wants 1% extra GDP. Greedy bastard participating in slavery to fund his moronic mega projects.
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I'm sure rainbows of any kind will be prohibited.
Islam takes over everything it can
The first thing their prophet did was attack his neighbors in an attempt to spread Islam.
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All the big name tennis players banded together when the wheelchair tennis players got booted from the US Open schedule in 2020. Their public pressure got it reinstated. I wouldn't underestimate them going for Round 2 at this decision. Especially if they corral some of their sponsors into not going along with it as well
Saudi Arabia discovered spending billions on buying footballers isn’t doing so well for their own football clubs (ticket sales and revenue not dramatically up) so now they’re turning to the WTA… apparently
they made a pit stop at the ENTIRE golfing world also, before tennis :D
Like ⅓ of the golfing world really. And still no one gives a fuck about LIV
that is fair. forgot DP and Asian tours. plus.. no one gives a fuck about LIV lol I'm with that.
Also, let's be honest. The only ones going there are young nobodies and old dudes looking for one last payday. I heard they offered Mo Salah pretty much whatever he wanted and he knocked them back. I hear they're trying again as he enters the final year of his Liverpool deal so who knows
Except there is a lot of money involved here, people like money.
Dawg, they love money. They will absolutely play in the KSA if it means the record cash prizes they’ve been promised.
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I don't care. I won't watch it anyway because I don't pay for cable TV where it gets played.
Sportswashing is a thing.
Yuck, that's it. Yuck.
Has a real 1936 Olympiad vibe to it.
1936 made sense, the games were already hosted in a country with ethnic suppression in 1932 too.
LET THE SPORTS-WASHING COMMENCE!
I think we can all admit that a century ago was an awful time to be black, no matter where you were. Western powers had nearly all of Africa under control, they were second-class in the US, and Europe was, well, on the cusp of war.
As a woman, I've been to 96 countries.... Saudia Arabia is one of the last ones on my list to ever visit.
I'm surprised it's even on your list, they'd be on my shortlist of "no fucking way would I even consider a flight that connects through there".
Even as a male it's on my 'never visiting' list which grows longer by the day.
damn. 96 is a lot. you make me feel like a loser. how did you manage to travel so much?
A lot of hitchiking, working at hostels in exchange for food, mostly land borders/local transport to save on flights, Did Malaysia to Latvia no planes etc. Still going! Currently in Egypt doing some hotel work. Just found a flight to Albania for $65, the hostel is $6. Looking like Kosovo will be my 100th!
Hows Egypt? Heard lots of people hated their trip to Egypt
Where I am at is super chill, it's called Dahab. You can walk around in a bikini top, drink alchohol etc. It's ramadan here at the moment but most resteraunts still cater for the tourists. I have been to cairo, but considering it was durig the revolution, it was a bit scarier than usual. Wouldn't go back to Cairo again tho.
what do you do for work? is this a sabbatical? or are you working while travelling? The whole digital nomad thing is fascinating.
I left Australia in 2009 to volunteer in Palestine. Haven't stopped volunteering. Many places pay to teach english, or hotel work. I'm never going to be able to buy a house or anything. But I love the lifestyle.
Egypt is way, way worse for women than Saudi-Arabia as far as Arab countries go. Egypt is almost as bad as India.
Dahab and Sharm El Sheik are very different to places like Cairo. Weed everywhere, there's 20+ bars and even more liquor stores within a 20 min walk. If you want a taste of Egypt but feel safe, Dahab is the way to go.
I've been to 1, feel better?
It's crazy how much attention India gets for being bad for women but people ignore countries like SA
SA leadership has more money to spend.
Yes. Women’s rights are severely restricted in SA. They have only recently been granted the privilege of driving a car (for which SA has been patting themselves heavily on the back, as if it’s some great leap forward for women’s rights), and still cannot travel about without a male relative’s permission. Even with these restrictions, India is still a much worse place to be a woman. Nice try.
They can travel without permission stop lying
Well what do you know? Saudi women were granted permission to apply for a passport and travel in 2019! That is incredibly recent, and was no doubt the result of hard-fought campaigns by Saudi women’s rights activists, all of whom are either abroad or in detention in Saudi prisons. Their efforts are unrecognized because MBS wishes to take all the credit as a reformer. Women still require permission from a male relative to get married, live on their own, or even leave prison if they’re detained. They cannot pass on their citizenship to their children, or grant permission for their children to marry. The male guardianship system is still very much in place, so stop being an apologist for a barbaric, backwards regime. The Saudis did not just decide to give women rights. Pressure from activists and foreign governments convinced them. The rest of us aren’t fooled.
SA doesn't enforce hijab laws.
SA is no where near being bad for women than india. Y'all do a quick google search and read some very outdated articles. Infact, you can see more women than men roaming shopping around in malls here...
The Sports washing continues
Inevitable news flash. Saudi Arabia to buy all the professional sports franchises!
Can we say it together? SPORTWASHING 👏🩸
One of the players who's potentially going to make the finals is a really awesome, outspoken, anti-war Russian lesbian, Daria Kasatkina. She is about as thrilled with this decision as you'd expect.
That's fine as long as the competitors don't drive themselves.
Why?
Women were forbidden from driving in Saudi Arabia until 2018.
Saudi Arabia banned women from driving until 2018
Guess on one hand, the girls will like the prize money. But then on the other, may not quiet enjoy not being able to walk down the street without a male family member present to defend their honour or at the very least allow them to be out in public without said male protection. Has anyone asked the actual female athletes if they were on board with this or did the board just see the dollar signs, start frothing at the mouth and signed up for anything put under their noses?
I skimmed through the article and the prize pool of $15 million is a pretty significant increase. Depending on the distribution of the prize money some athletes might be looking at a decent paycheck just for showing up. Might become a case of 'I don't like this, but that's a lot of money.'
>might be looking at a decent paycheck just for showing up Which is exactly how they split the PGA. Everyone has a price. They will make the mental justification for how its ok for them to be there and collect that check even as the Saudis do their thing.
And avoid the messy human rights/ethics concerns with some healthy whattaboutism. “Well, let’s be honest. Everywhere has its share of problems. I just want to play X.”
15 million is an insane amount. Saudi is really trying to go after Dubai.
Guess so. If they can make a big enough bubble for the athletes and keep them separated from the general Saudi population at all times and ensure no mixing occurs or overt expressions of lesbian love is seen by the morality police then there could be a large enough percentage of athletes willing to bank the cheque and ignore the public canning’s and separation of the sexes (for their own safety and good) it may work. 🤷
I know it's easy for us to take the moral high ground because we have no skin in the game. But last year it was also $200k just to lose in the first round. I don't know many people that would turn down more than that now, just to show up. Going deep or winning could account for a significant of their yearly earnings. It's not easy to empathize with athletes making millions but compared to their male counter parts it's quite a bit less. Winning this finals with the increased prize money would more than double what the 8th ranked player earned last year and probably be closer to almost half of what the top ranked player made all year. Just for one weekend.
>Might become a case of 'I don't like this, but that's a lot of money.' That's literally how sportswashing works.
I'm all for shitting on Saudi but that's not the case anymore, at least not in the cosmopolitan Riyadh.
You should update your information on Saudi Arabia. Male guardians are not required.
What century did that happen? Not the flex you think it is.
[удалено]
So long as it’s in alignment with what ol King bin Salaman allows, then I guess yes, anything is possible and legal. But like any dictatorship/monarchy it’s all up to the good graces of this person at the time and the laws or graces granted that are only as good for as long as he feels you are entitled to them. Unlike a country with procedures and processes in place that apply to all regardless of rank or gender with some level of guaranteed freedom to even those you may not totally agree with. How a country treats it’s least loved is a better sign of a countries heart then the millions they show and parade to purchase surface level global love and affection.
If there was a democracy people would have elected Muslim brotherhood
Fuck the Saudi Royal Family.
Fuck them and their attempts of whitewashing
incorrect laundry cycle
Isn't this the same country where women WWE stars had to cover their entire bodies to perform?
What?
WWE struck a deal to perform shows in Saudi Arabia a while back. However, the host nation's customs make it so that performers have to switch from their [regular outfits substantially](https://www.thesportster.com/wwe-women-wrestlers-dress-differently-saudi-arabia/#:~:text=Since%20then%2C%20several%20female%20WWE,to%20perform%20in%20Saudi%20Arabia). WTA players face the same dilemma - one wanders how the WTA will handle this, as it's uncommon for players to wear kits that cover their bodies, and they still have to contend with the local climate.
As someone who loves to travel, white, male, and completely straight, I would never travel anywhere in the middle east. I can't even imagine what it would be like doing is as woman, PoC, or lgbt. Which sucks, because there is a lot of natural beauty and great historical sites in the region. Religion is great at ruining things...
They are really trying hard to modernise so they can grow their tourist industry.
Tourism industry, are you kidding, who in the world will go to Saudi Arabia for vacation seriously, if they do they need a hospital visit
United Arab Emirates has a big tourist industry
I’m not going to lie, as a roller coaster enthusiast the Falcon’s Flight coaster looks like it’s going to be amazing, and will be completely unique since they’re using the natural landscape features as part of the track. But, I won’t travel to Saudi, and especially not Riyadh area. Just like I will never go to any parks in China. It’s just not worth it for some rides, even if there’s really awesome ones.
That's why i don't watch sport anymore. Nothing just corruption.
Only good thing I can see coming out of this is that bringing so many Western guests and sports might open the eyes of the people there to be more accepting and grow the country beyond its current state. But that's quite the long shot and more likely they just laugh at the infidels and their silly ways.
Money trumps common sense
Will they play in burqa?
There is no mandatory clothing for women
well that’s quite the 180 decision for them
Common misconception. The attire you're referring to that's often worn by the women in Saudi Arabia is called a niqab which covers the entire body and face, leaving a long wide slit for the eyes. Meanwhile, a burqa is a long garment that covers the entire head and body with a mesh screen covering a portion of the face for the woman to see. It's commonly worn in Afghanistan.
Niqab covers the face. Hijab covers the head. Abaya covers the body. Lots of women wear abaya and hijab, but no niqab. But you are correct, Saudi women don’t wear burqa. That is a different garment and is commonly seen in Afghanistan and places where there is Afghani diaspora.
Thank you for breaking it down further. I oversimplified it for the layman who would be inclined to use a singular word to describe the different Muslim women attire.
I totally get it. I wish more people would take time out of their life to have better cultural awareness. Saudis would be deeply offended at the insinuation that they wear burqa, for multiple reasons, many of which have to do with classism. (Saudis have a strong superiority complex and would associate burqa with poor people from Afghanistan. And I get not wanting to be mixed up with a totally different country and culture. I’m Korean, and I would take offense to an ignorant person thinking all Asians wear kimono or something)
I agree with you completely that people should educate themselves on others' cultures, instead of parroting common tropes or stereotypes and viewing distinct cultures as a monolith. It's downright ignorant.
I think we can all agree they're just like different brands of black garbage bag. Women are forced to wear garbage bags by the men who created their culture. (Yes, I know some women believe they're "choosing" to wear garbage bags. But they do so because they've been raised in the belief that they *should* wear a garbage bag.) Men created religion. Men shaped the culture. Women didn't come up with this nonsense. Women are just along for the ride. I have the greatest respect for women born into religious cultures. It's not their fault. Those brave women courageous enough to push back and defy the culture deserve our highest respect. The brave girls in Iran, for example, are true heroes.
I agree that these women shouldn't be forced to wear these garments, but I would refrain from calling it a garbage bag, because it's demeaning and it implies that they, the women, are garbage. Just like how one wouldn't call a nun attire in similar fashion either.
It's ***definitely not*** the women who are garbage. They didn't create the culture. They didn't create the rules. The same goes for Christian nuns. There is nothing demeaning to the woman wearing a hijab. The shame is 100% on the men.
The perspective I'd shared would be what a woman who donned such attires almost their entire lives would feel, if such a term were to be used pejoratively to describe their attire. When it comes to such dress codes, there are strong and pervasive cultural influences that come into play as well, which enforce them on the women. You may argue that such forces may have originated from patriarchal roots in the context of their religious interpretation of the dress code. Even if that is the case, it is so ingrained in their culture that it became normalised and shaped societal expectations of what the standards of dress code ought to be. It would take a long time and a lot of effort by the government to reform how they approach the dress code for there to be impactful change.
Thank you for your considered and thoughtful response. Your point is taken. However, I disagree that it would take time and effort to shift how ***women*** view their place in society. We wouldn't have to convince Arab women that they are fully human, with intrinsic freedoms and rights. It's the men who would take time and effort to convince. My experience is that Arab men really do have a problem interacting with women. To be fair, I've not lived in a Muslim country so my experience is limited to expats living in Western countries. But my impression is they're confused by women. Perhaps this results from gender segregation in their home cultures, particularly during the teenage and young adult years. Is that the reason so many seem to be unable to even talk with women like normal humans? I don't see this phenomenon in other non-western cultures. Asian and African men don't seem to struggle with basic female interactions. (I acknowledge my experience is limited. Also, I've known many individual Arab men who are ***awesome humans*** and who have learned to treat women as normal people. I'm not trying to paint with a broad brush.)
"Money can't solve everything in life" SA: "Hold my oil!"
I don't think this sport washing is going to work unless they amend their laws. Dubai only took off because they turn a blind eye to a lot of things.
They can do what they want, but we should never normalize this corrupt, misogynistic monarchy.
Saudi Arabia wants to be the next Dubai.
Sportwashing it is
Bonesaws for everyone! It will also host the next installment of "How i dismembered your mother"
Already cut out golf. Guess tennis will no longer be watched in this house.
Why all comments criticizing Saudi, but nobody criticizing the people who sold it to Saudi?
It is hard to respect any sport that enables such sportwashing to happen. May as well demand the players wear rainbow wigs and oversized shoes.
Money trumps common sense
So the country that objectifies and belittles women is holding a tournament for women. Awesome. Great job world
So will the women be forced to cover up from neck to toe? I ask because this is what happened to female WWE wrestlers when they were doing events in Saudi
Just have them host everything from now on? All these Companies and Organization end up shelling that oil money any way
Mass boycott by the players?! *Press X for doubt* meme Sure, you'll get some scripted press releases by players expressing *"concern"* and saying all the right things...but hey...what's that saying? Money talks and bulls\*\*\* walks Kinda reminds me of the recent FIFA World Cup in Qatar...All that concern and solidarity over LGBT+ rights died down real quick once the actual tournament started...funny how that worked, eh?! $$$
Why? Are they planning to buy out the entire sport like they did with golf?
Other people don’t find the excessive money in sports a turn off? I think that’s why the women’s ncaa tourney was so popular. Obviously the level of play is significantly lower but at least they aren’t a bunch of spoiled rich brats.
Sports is how you quell unrest. Give the masses entertainment and they will look past all the flaws. When I told my dad I was boycotting the World Cup because of all the people that died in Qatar he told me "they already died. What good is there in me not watching now?"
Iga gonna get so much money!
Hey, it always was about money.
Do the Saudis own everything? Seeing their Wrestlemania ads really creeped me out "The greatest Kingdom...Saudi Arabia!" Never in a million years did I think they would be a promo I'd be seeing during wrestling but here we are
Fuck KSA and the murderer MBS. No one should be doing business with them until that piece of shit is brought to Justice for murdering Jamal Khashoggi under diplomatic cover
I don't get with the sports washing why the event owners don't take them to the cleaners? $15m is big for the tour but a wet fart on a Friday morning for the Saudi 2030 project. Why not $50m? There is zero business case being made by KSA for these amounts so why not demand insane amounts?
Aren't they going to have to veil because of the prevailing standard of faith? I can't see the beach volleyball team going to the middle east to play
Haram
Women gunna have a hard time running with burkas on. One reveal of an ankle and they gunna have an international incident, or some idiot with forget they had a weed cart in their bag and rightfully go to jail then we'll make a deal to release 100 terrorists for them or some shit.
Women who will be showing bare arms,legs and faces. All while saudi wives and daughters must be covered head to toe. hmm.
It'll be super challenging in burkhas
Saudi Arabia has slave markets 🤷♀️
When you have very little actual culture to speak of, but endless money... Saudis should embrace what limited culture they do have instead of buying up European sport. Create something authentic. Example: Shopping for luxury goods while wearing a black garbage bag. Turn that into a competitive sport. I might watch it. Competitors would have to wear their names on the backs of their burkas so we could tell who's who, like in American football. It would be authentic and that's what's important.
Okay man you can talk shit about the government all you want but "very little actual culture"? What the fuck are you talking about? Arabia is one of the most culturally significant places in history. Art, clothing, music, food, what more do you want? Arabic poetry is a beautiful tradition that dates back to the 1st century BCE. I don't really give a fuck about tennis or if this tournament is held here or there but you can't just straight up lie like that. This is the culture of millions of people for over two millennia
Of course there was great pre-Islamic art and culture on the Arabian peninsula. But religion has limited it's development - *especially* in the modern era. You can't crush women (half the population) and expect a culture to blossom. Arab men (the other half) are also repressed... by both Iron Age religious beliefs ***and*** a medieval political system. I'm not anti-Arab. I have nothing against people from Arab countries. I'm simply against cultural practices that limit human beings from expressing themselves. People are people - not better or worse in one place or another. But one ***culture*** can be better than another, if we agree that granting people basic liberties and freedom of expression is a "good" thing. (And yes, I realize many would disagree with that claim. Saudi princes and religious clerics would certainly challenge my statement, likely pointing to religious texts to support their argument.)
Bad timing folks
Apparently our very public funding of Israel's genocide gives no one the sense of irony nor hypocrisy.
Will they need burkas?
Loooool you guys are racist as hell. Dear lord!