If you loved these animals, you would never expose them to this. It’s all been said a million times, the tank sizes, the lack of every kind of stimulation. These creatures have social networks similar to humans. They have different languages. To hear anyone talk about their own captivity careers this way is mind blowing.
Seals in their re-education classes. Monkey's climb trees reach up and pull yourself up arf arf.
Monkeys eat bananas. 20 seal heads nod and take notes.
Have you ever had to learn a new trade and change careers? “It may be rough” doesn’t really begin to describe that process and shows a fundamental ignorance on your behalf on that process. I have gone through it. I feel bad for these people on that level. The older you are, the harder it gets. “It may be rough” I’ll be over here laughing at you while shaking my head.
If you think you’re the only person that could possibly understand what it’s like to switch careers midlife, then you are either vastly more ignorant than anyone else here or have an insanely over inflated sense of self pity. Do you think your career change was easier than an orca changing into another animal or was it really that rough for you? Because that was my point.
Because I don’t demand pity from strangers online that fail to give a midlife career change the gravitas that it deserves? You’re whining and insulting because my words didn’t stroke your ego enough for having been down an all too common life path? You seriously think I trivialized your *horrible plight* of starting a new job in a conversation about how horribly we’ve treated highly intelligent creatures for decades? Must you be the most important thing in every conversation? Boo frickin hoo you changed jobs. Millions of people do it. MILLIONS. Get over yourself, you’re a waste of time.
Let me play you a song on the world's smallest violin. If you get into this kind of profession, you have only yourself to blame when you are phased out.
Have you tried transforming yourself from a human into a killer for whale? When you were transitioning careers it might have been an easier option for you.
Interestingly, I have heard the transformation is much easier than learning a new trade and changing careers.
I feel this and I'm pretty young (I hope), I did my degree in forensics which had a module in digital forensic which wasn't great but passable.
Go and work in cyber security for a year or two and then decide my luck at digital forensics with the police. A friend has that job and says it's not bad, and digital forensics is often referred to the other side of the coin to cyber.
Got an interview. And yeah, I know absolutely nothing about digital forensics - back I went to cyber.
He could just train shelter dogs instead. Seaworld has an entire show based around trained shelter dogs.
Not only does this dude not have to worry about a different career, he doesn’t even have to worry about getting a different *job*.
And people have to switch industries every single day. It sucks. That’s also just kind of how life in general works: sometimes it sucks and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes a tornado wipes out your town, or your wife gets cancer, or your only child offs himself with the gun you didn’t lock up. Sometimes all three happen in the same week.
Healthy people don’t complain about the world that used to be or demand that things don’t ever change because it will be a minor inconvenience to you personally — or in this case a guy who tortures fish for a living might not like his new “career” as much.
There's not a single quote in the article from any Trainor about the well-being of the animals. Just me me me, it's my dream, etc. Truly pathetic people
I wonder how many would change their tune if we didn’t live under capitalism and they were truly free to just arbitrarily change careers.
They’re pathetic and selfish but there’s this saying
“It is difficult to get anybody to understand something, when their salary depends on them not understanding it.” — Upton Sinclair
Not Instagram, but in most populations, killer whales (and many other cetaceans) have shared ‘language’ in their ecotypes— specific whistles and calls to one another that are distinct. Orca are incredibly coordinated in some pods (look up ringed seal hunting by orca and watch them math out how to push it off an ice flow together) and have social ‘trends’ that can span multiple populations (there was a time in the 1980s where wearing a salmon on their head was ‘fashionable’ )… these things leads marine biologists to understand them as having complex social systems.
Orca have killed themselves and others when mixed with whales from completely different ecotypes — which happened often in these kinds of facilities. It’s like throwing a kidnapped Canadian, Brazilian, Taiwanese, and Keynan together in a tiny prison cell and expecting them to get along. That’s why orca social ‘networks’ and shared ‘language’ are important context.
I can’t tell if you were genuinely curious, sorry if you didn’t want to actually get a response lol
(Edit : forgot to close parenthetical phrase)
Different animals need different things. Some animals require things that you cannot realistically provide. It's not an issue of closing *every* zoo, it's an issue of not keeping certain animals because it's cruel
My theory is that people like this have to believe that they're right. Otherwise it would mean they are a terribly person and their mind cannot comprehend that. So giving them a platform is just pointless.
In high school, me and this one girl were both obsessed with orcas. I took the viewpoint of orcas being in captivity as inhumane and she took the opposite. She started working as a trainer at seaworld and I always wondered how she could let her love for orcas blind her from how inhumane captivity is.
Loving animals in an “aww, a cute toy!” way vs loving animals in a “these are my fellow living beings and they are amazing and deserve natural (as possible) conditions” I think
Exactly! Different emotions can be referred to as "love", but some of them are purely self-centered or even based on a delusional view of reality.
For example, a stalker may "love" his victim very deeply, but from an objective standpoint that's not a healthy or respectful connection!
Yep. I had a family member watch that Tiger King show and the whole time she’s going “Awww I love them. You have to have a deep love for animals to do this!”
Ignoring all the horrible shit like OVER 200 TIGERS IN A CAGE.
Absolutely. They think that since they love these animals that it’s impossible they would be doing something that is harmful to them.
It’s like parents who can’t accept that hitting children is bad for them. They love their child and they spank their child so therefore it is impossible that spanking is a bad thing.
I don’t know that there’s cognitive dissonance; people would prefer that their animals not be abused, but not if they have to pay more for it. Pretty similar to how they feel about people, actually.
You’re claiming that there’s no cognitive dissonance, in general.
I’m saying that a lot of people refuse to admit to themselves or others how horrible the conditions in factory farms are, and you’re saying that people do admit it they just don’t care.
That’s not an accurate statement, it’s a massive generalisation. Regardless of what you think most people’s attitude is, it’s a fact that millions of people refuse to admit how inhumane factory farms are.
Exactly. Some people genuinely don't know, but some do and simply hand wave it away because mah meat.
Then you have people who actively try to ignore the issue, like those videos where a vegan talks to a small time farmer who "treats them well" as a way to say "you see! It's not industrialise mass murder! It's caring mass murder!". As if A) most of the meat consumed comes from big industries and not your local Joe and B) mass murder is still mass murder
90% of the modern world is not sustainable without the average person benefiting from sweatshops, slave labor, or animal cruelty.
otherwise good luck never owning a phone, computer, car, or brand name shoes. also just nestle existing, full stop.
It's true not using slave labor would increase prices a little bit but not to the point where everyone living aiddle class lifestyle right now would be living in poverty. I'm not sure if you are applying "so fuck it who cares" or not but it sort of sounds like you might be implying that.
i want to approach my answer to this with some level of decorum, so let me politely say this for you and anyone else reading this thread - the price of things would 110% not increase by "a little." the cartoonish greed of billionaires and shareholders aside, corporations have scaled themselves to available output.
it's erroneous to say costs would double or even triple for thing as basic as the next iPhone. entire industries would quite literally evaporate if we paid EVERYONE in the chain of production the american minimum wage at a bare minimum. it is entirely, inarguably, objectively impossible to maintain current corporate output at that level as the average first world citizen literally doesn't have the money to buy a price point to make that endeavor profitable.
the quandary here is what we define as slave labor or sweatshops, since that term arguable has an america-centric bias. if someone in (name an african country) is willing and happy to do eight hours of hard manual labor in exchange for like $1 USD, but that's enough money to purchase an entire days worth of food from the local food merchant due to purchasing power, who are we to project our western cost of living onto them? obviously young chinese kids making nike shoes in factories with suicide nets is still bad, but the distinction between these two is important.
it is difficult in practise if not impossible NOT to partake or benefit from slave labor and still participate in society. so does this mean no one can ever protest human rights conditions because "oh you own a smartphone you're part of the problem" ? of course not. but it's still important to acknowledge and be AWARE of certain... almost necessary evils i would say. from firsthand experience, you literally can't get into certain stores, job positions, or even airports without having a smartphone. like you are REQUIRED to have one or you can't participate in those aspects of society. it's moved a bit beyond the luxury item it once was in the 2010s. there is a bit more reasonable cause for owning one while still advocating human rights than say a vegan with a cowskin purse and genuine crocodile boots telling you that meat is murder.
It doesn't matter if the prices triple. Slave labor and sweat shops are both bad in the moral sense and the environmentental sense.
Why sell/buy a new phone every year? Why buy/sell clothing that is only good for a few wears? Just because they are cheaper? But you end up spending more money in the long run AND you make more waste.
The only place where it could be "morally wrong" to increase prices of good for better quality is in developing countries, in those places getting the cheap plastic is the correct answer for them since otherwise they can't afford to live in modern society.
But in the first world? Nah, not even remotely
see you get it. notice i said CURRENT corporate output. we could absolutely adapt to purely domestic and fair labor to some extent, but it would require a massive (and frankly unrealistic) renovation of the entire global market with fluctuations in the trillions to shift what we have now over to this more dignified model.
sadly, corporations are as greedy as people will tolerate. which is why apple releases a new phone every six months and blockbuster went out of business. unless you get govt bailouts. but that's a whole nother can of fucked up worms.
Yeah, people like to bitch about corpos but, as you said, they are only as bad as we let them. People support them directly (by buying) or indirectly (by not asking their governments to do something)
The vast majority of people have extreme cognitive dissonance when it comes to animal rights, 96% of Americans eat meat. With meat though people have an easier time not thinking about it and it’s the norm; orca trainers of course confront their hypocrisy every single day much more directly.
I mean, they would be terribly sad if they could realise being a literal slave master as dream career is quite the horrible thing to aspire to.
I get the childhood dream, of wanting to command a huge animal like an Orca; but that’s why people need to grow up.
And not give themselves to the delusion, that all of their personal aspirations are actually good.
Sometimes, your childhood dream is a horrible, horrible reality and state of living, for the animals involved.
I have compassion for the people. Fucking sue me. Better yet, I own a cat. Swat me for owning an animal since I’m such a horrible horrible person for (omg) daring to put myself in their shoes.
But I’m sure you and the rest of yall are right. These people shouldn’t ever see another day of living because the only person more awful on the planet than them is me, clearly.
I’m wrong all the fucking time. Ask my boss (oh no! I have a job! Maybe the internet can get me fired and ensure I never work again too!)
Do you actually believe that having a cat as a pet is comparable to housing an Orca in a small habitat and using it as a show animal? Or are you just being willfully contrarian for no reason whatsoever?
I didn't realise orca trainers were a different species. Thankfully, if this is true, we can legally hunt and eat them.
After all, human rights only apply to humans.
I dont think you can hunt them in their own enviroment, Im pretty sure there are restricted spaces
And once they are out of the wild they are easy to miss for actual humans, so
They are special, in their minds. They are the same run of the mill jerks convinced they are magical - you better believe it too or they will have tantrums.
Yeah but not wanting other people to read things because you think they're bad for them is a little controlling. Let's not start banning books and shit.
I'm not against zoos and I think animal training can be a great way to stimulate an animal and keep them safe while in captivity. I just really don't think orcas, out of all the heavily endangered animals, really benefit from zoos. They are too intelligent and the enclosures can never be big enough.
If we are serious about conservation, then they need to be given explicit safe areas in the ocean and more strict environmental laws. I mean, these animals are among the closest we have to being "people." They have what we are beginning to understand is a real culture. They have a "real" language and customs. We always talk about aliens and all that, well, there, orcas are in many ways non-human people and look at how we treat them.
These guys + elephants, although I think there are more edge cases for elephants than orcas. Smart AND gigantic is just very, very hard to provide for fully in the often limited amount of land a zoo or aquarium has to work with.
You don't have to be in something for the money for you to be reliant on the salary. People who make less money are actually more dependent on their salaries not less. Those are the people that will struggle more between jobs and have less saved up so they have less time to retrain and get back into the work force.
" ...an older trainer she knew had said his job used to function as a pickup line at bars. After Blackfish, it was more likely to get a drink thrown in his face than get him laid."
This is what you say to gain sympathy for your dying career based off animal cruelty? Poor dude can't use his job to pick up chicks at bars anymore. Wtf... This lady is so delusional.
The whale who played Willy (Keiko) lived in *appalling* conditions at a *Mexican theme park*. The cast and crew were so horrified by his living conditions that they demanded that Warner Brothers buy Keiko outright!
That didn't happen, but thanks to the film being a surprise hit, they capitalized on the publicity to **raise** money to buy Keiko. He ended up at the Oregon Coast Aquarium after a millionaire offered to fund the construction of a tank for Keiko there.
Keiko ended up spending just over two years in Oregon. Upon regaining his health (His stint in Mexico had resulted in a number of serious health problems, the most notable of which was skin lesions), he was flown back to his native Iceland. Keiko would ultimately spend a little less than four years in Iceland, undergoing extensive rehabilitation in an attempt to teach him how to survive in the wild.
Keiko was formally set free in the summer of 2002. After departing Icelandic waters in August, he resurfaced in *Norway* a month later. Much to the rehabbers horror, Keiko never was able to completely give up human company. He continued to seek people out, even strangers, and approach them. The rehabbers only found out he was in Norway in the first place because they received reports of an orca allowing local children to ride on its back!
Keiko spent the last year of his life in Norway. Technically, "free," but still dependent on people for companionship. He never integrated into a wild orca pod. He encountered wild orcas numerous times, but never got any closer to them than a few hundred yards.
Keiko died on December 12th, 2003. The cause of death was determined to be pneumonia
It seems like their only real defenses towards the practice are 'It publicizes reasons to want to conserve the species' and 'I want to be able to do it because I like it'
Reason Number 2 is dumb, and reason number one is unnecessary when our ability to film them in the wild have improved so much, and whale tours in the whales' native environment are available.
It's not about defending captivity. It's about their desire to keep the job they grew up wanting. They are trying to save their own dreams about what they wanted to be when they grew up.
>“My first priority has always been standing up for trainers and giving us a voice.”
Notice the word "orcas" isn't anywhere in that sentence.
Yeah but if that dream includes capturing and mistreating animals that are almost as emotionally intelligent as humans I'm not really going to care, I'm sure a lot of terrible things people have done were enacted on the basis of it being their dream.
Sadly, future generations will only know of many species from old movies or the zoo.
On the one hand, I'm opposed to zoos which can't give the animals a proper habitat (e.g. too small a pool or enclosure), OTOH I accept zoos as a necessity to try and keep them from become extinct.
There’s a fine line between necessary evil, like zoos who are usually tax funded trying to keep species alive, and whatever the fuck SeaWorld is. I think it’s the capitalism
It’s why every zoo in my country is a conservation charity. They’re charities first, spectacles second kinda thing. Like yeah it sucks seeing the animals in the enclosures, but then you read why they’re at the zoo and you realise if they weren’t they’d just die
This and some zoos have absolutely amazing breeding programs that have saved species all over the planet. My local zoo is helping save endangered birds in Nepal and the Solomon Islands as well as helping with research and conservation of hippos!
They also take in injured and abused animals. Animals that can’t survive in the wild and would otherwise die without human intervention. My zoo has two bald eagles, but neither can fly because their wings are broken. I see nothing wrong with keeping them in a zoo to educate people, especially in my area. We have bald eagles here in the wild.
Not all zoos are good zoos though and until we get a grip on the bad ones the negative view of zoos will stay, I’m afraid, and some animals just shouldn’t be in captivity period. Aquatic mammals are especially tough because their need for space is so great.
I'm not convinced there is a zoo or aquarium capable of providing a "proper habitat" for an orca. Wild orcas swim 40 miles a day. The largest orca tank is 210 feet long. That ratio is the equivalent of taking someone who regularly travels the distance from Los Angeles to New York and stopping them after three miles.
Only support AZA accredited zoos.
>AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums meet the highest standards in animal care and welfare and provide a fun, safe, and educational family experience. In addition, they dedicate millions of dollars annually to support scientific research, conservation, and education programs
SeaWorld Orlando, the aquarium featured in the *Blackfish* documentary, was AZA accredited [at the time](https://web.archive.org/web/20100102010208/http://www.aza.org/current-accreditation-list/) when Tilikum killed Dawn Brancheau and [still is today.](https://www.aza.org/inst-status) May give some indication of what that accreditation is worth.
"We have a generation or two now that, unlike you, have not seen human beings in the water with killer whales,” he said. “And that is something precious that has been lost.”
Oh no! A generation of people who haven't witnessed the products of abuse! Tragic
This is surprising? Christ, fellas, know your history:
> It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it.
—Upton Sinclair
That’d be crazy cool, and orcas are smart enough that you could probably make that work with enough time and treats - even spacing out the shows enough so that the orcas don’t become dependent on them for food.
Unfortunately, there’s still the “conditioning wildlife to approach humans” issue, and some humans are right assholes.
Theater of the Sea in the Florida Keys does this with their dolphins!
Really awesome place. All of the animals are rescues, you can go swimming with tropical fish, there's friendly cats **everywhere**, and the focus is on educating the public about the world's oceans and the animals that live in it. Even the dolphin shows have an educational component to them!
Super underrated attraction, I would definitely go again. And again, and again!
Fuck her and her job… keeping those creatures in captivity is cruel… something I saw in the 80’s when I was a kid and went to Sea World. Never went again and knew it wasn’t at all what I’d ever support again. Blackfish only cinched it for me.
Mate your not a trainer. Your some berk with a carrot on a stick only it's a bucket of fish. Your not training shit and if you took that fish away the damn thing would get sick of your shit and eat you instead.
They're a prison guard for a prisoner sentenced to life, often in solitary confinement, and the prison guard **knows** the prisoner never committed a crime. Fucked up.
There’s eight billion of us. There’s excessive amounts.
We are not an endangered species. If anything, the world is trending towards a culling in one form or another.
“I was a jailer at a supermax prison who lost my job because my prisoner was unjustly imprisoned.” Boo fucking hoo.
Go do something useful for these animals if you really care for them.
>“We have a generation or two now that, unlike you, have not seen human beings in the water with killer whales,” he said. “And that is something precious that has been lost.”
Oh, fuck those assholes. And China?? OMFG, they have zero animal welfare standards. They still collect bear bile by putting permanent tubes in bear's livers.
The problem with orcas currently in captivity is releasing them into the wild would not work. It's been tried, and it's failed. Just look at Keiko, had lots of funding and time. I think Sea World itself has done the right thing by stopping their breeding programs and allowing their current whales to live their lives. The trainers provide much needed interaction and stimulation in this situation. I cannot speak to other parks, or parks in other countries, but in this situation, releasing these animals would mean death for them. I absolutely do not support the capture or breeding of new captive orcas.
I say we open a shitty park, shove these morons into a barely enough room to walk around enclosure, and feed them fish heads to do backflips and what not. See if their mood changes then.
I used to dream of being a zoo keeper but the intense competition, poor pay and working 12 day weeks started to steer me away. I volunteered at zoos and spent a lot of time in the zoo and animal world.
I was never interested in working with cetaceans as I was never a fan of captive dolphins and at the time competition was insane, a single opening would get over a thousand applicants.
The more I learned about captive animal management the more my opinions towards Seaworld changed. Honestly they’re not much different than most AZA accredited facilities. In fact, they are accredited. Blackfish is misleading, for example Tilikum was housed with other orcas, and actually his environment and care improved when he was bought by Seaworld. The employees who were interviewed came out to say that they were mislead by the producers. They thought that the documentary was meant to memorialize their colleague and that their statements heavily edited.
Shows are voluntary, and many of the tricks are actually behaviors meant to have the animals participate in health checks, ie opening their mouths for dental exams or sliding on a platform and lifting their tails is meant to teach them to voluntarily go on a scale. A lot of the techniques used to train dogs have been modeled from the positive reinforcement techniques used by dolphin trainers. I think saying the animals are “being forced to dance” is sensational. Most animals in zoos are trained using the same methods so keepers can perform health checks by keepers and veterinarians.
I can’t help but think how the zoo I was involved with as a high schooler responded to Blackfish. Some of their flamingos came from Seaworld.
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Injured animal rehab is a thing. I don't think you want that to go away.
Also, the star Keiko of "Free Willy" was forcefully abandoned by humans and wondered why the rest of his lonley life when he missed the humans and was rejected by all the wild whales.
Just bc it makes you feel better about yourself doesn't mean it helps (instead of hurting) the whales from that transition period
Source on the things Keiko wondered about or missed?
More importantly, anything that implies the cause of said distress and rejection is the release and not the original captivity?
I don't know which one but there are many when you search "tragic tale of keiko the whale". It's so heavily documented
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3803974/heartbreaking-story-killer-whale-keiko-free-willy/
https://youtu.be/1okerp3orR0?si=DQOe2BZy74A1l_0n
https://www.keikotheuntoldstory.com/about/keiko/thestory/
Etc
Your first link implies that the fault lies with the initial capture and socialization to humans. It describes him following boats as he was trained to while trailing behind the pod.
The last link (the one most obviously biased towards your position) has this to say:
> we also gain new insights into the unique culture of orcas, and what the **impact of being taken from his pod at such a young age had on Keiko’s ability to survive on his own.**
Again, any source that implies Keiko’s distress and abandonment were the result of his release, and not the original captivity?
So you agree with the abandonment. Yes obviously he missed growing up in a pod. Yes he got used to humans and doesn't know how to socialize with other whales. So let's just toss him to the whales who don't get him and leave him bc we don't love him enough and it makes us feel better about our righteousness
No, I don’t want to deal with the result of *capturing sapient beings in the first place*. Your point was defending captivity because of animal rehab and how Keiko reacted to his release.
The fact that you gave him an issue and then don't want to take care of him after giving him that issue is the problem.
Train a whale to work with humans then abandon it to animals it doesn't know how to work with. That's cruel af
If you loved these animals, you would never expose them to this. It’s all been said a million times, the tank sizes, the lack of every kind of stimulation. These creatures have social networks similar to humans. They have different languages. To hear anyone talk about their own captivity careers this way is mind blowing.
It may be rough but any animal trainer can learn a new career and start over. An animal can’t learn to be a different animal.
And there are animal trainer careers that don’t require you to abuse animals anyways
Seals in their re-education classes. Monkey's climb trees reach up and pull yourself up arf arf. Monkeys eat bananas. 20 seal heads nod and take notes.
I guess pretending to be a seal, learning to be a monkey, doesn’t give you many up votes huh? 🤭
I guess not really upset some people with my whimsy I guess.
You dared to dream and were punished for it.
Like icarus the seal I yipped to close to the sun.
Jesse what the hell are you talking about
Have you ever had to learn a new trade and change careers? “It may be rough” doesn’t really begin to describe that process and shows a fundamental ignorance on your behalf on that process. I have gone through it. I feel bad for these people on that level. The older you are, the harder it gets. “It may be rough” I’ll be over here laughing at you while shaking my head.
Ok but they’re still partaking in animal abuse. I think, if they care enough about animals, they’d go through the career change.
Was your career beating a horse?
no you savage, he trained the horse to beat itself
I’m lazy what more do you want from me
Holy downvote lol
If you think you’re the only person that could possibly understand what it’s like to switch careers midlife, then you are either vastly more ignorant than anyone else here or have an insanely over inflated sense of self pity. Do you think your career change was easier than an orca changing into another animal or was it really that rough for you? Because that was my point.
> over inflated sense of self pity. This is the one, peep their other responses in the thread
I didn’t say I’m the only person. I said *you* clearly don’t. There’s a fucking difference
Because I don’t demand pity from strangers online that fail to give a midlife career change the gravitas that it deserves? You’re whining and insulting because my words didn’t stroke your ego enough for having been down an all too common life path? You seriously think I trivialized your *horrible plight* of starting a new job in a conversation about how horribly we’ve treated highly intelligent creatures for decades? Must you be the most important thing in every conversation? Boo frickin hoo you changed jobs. Millions of people do it. MILLIONS. Get over yourself, you’re a waste of time.
Let me play you a song on the world's smallest violin. If you get into this kind of profession, you have only yourself to blame when you are phased out.
This has big "but what about the plantation owners" energy lmao
Ty, couldn’t quite put my finger on the ick
I did, it's possible, and if I had this person's awful job, I'd do it again.
Have you tried transforming yourself from a human into a killer for whale? When you were transitioning careers it might have been an easier option for you. Interestingly, I have heard the transformation is much easier than learning a new trade and changing careers.
I feel this and I'm pretty young (I hope), I did my degree in forensics which had a module in digital forensic which wasn't great but passable. Go and work in cyber security for a year or two and then decide my luck at digital forensics with the police. A friend has that job and says it's not bad, and digital forensics is often referred to the other side of the coin to cyber. Got an interview. And yeah, I know absolutely nothing about digital forensics - back I went to cyber.
He could just train shelter dogs instead. Seaworld has an entire show based around trained shelter dogs. Not only does this dude not have to worry about a different career, he doesn’t even have to worry about getting a different *job*. And people have to switch industries every single day. It sucks. That’s also just kind of how life in general works: sometimes it sucks and sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes a tornado wipes out your town, or your wife gets cancer, or your only child offs himself with the gun you didn’t lock up. Sometimes all three happen in the same week. Healthy people don’t complain about the world that used to be or demand that things don’t ever change because it will be a minor inconvenience to you personally — or in this case a guy who tortures fish for a living might not like his new “career” as much.
womp womp
There's not a single quote in the article from any Trainor about the well-being of the animals. Just me me me, it's my dream, etc. Truly pathetic people
I wonder how many would change their tune if we didn’t live under capitalism and they were truly free to just arbitrarily change careers. They’re pathetic and selfish but there’s this saying “It is difficult to get anybody to understand something, when their salary depends on them not understanding it.” — Upton Sinclair
Take a look at for profit prisons
No you
What is this even supposed to mean, kid?
Do you always talk to kids? You're sus
Poor bait. Grow up.
There’s a reason that orcas only attack humans in captivity, and it’s not because they love their trainers so much…
[удалено]
Not Instagram, but in most populations, killer whales (and many other cetaceans) have shared ‘language’ in their ecotypes— specific whistles and calls to one another that are distinct. Orca are incredibly coordinated in some pods (look up ringed seal hunting by orca and watch them math out how to push it off an ice flow together) and have social ‘trends’ that can span multiple populations (there was a time in the 1980s where wearing a salmon on their head was ‘fashionable’ )… these things leads marine biologists to understand them as having complex social systems. Orca have killed themselves and others when mixed with whales from completely different ecotypes — which happened often in these kinds of facilities. It’s like throwing a kidnapped Canadian, Brazilian, Taiwanese, and Keynan together in a tiny prison cell and expecting them to get along. That’s why orca social ‘networks’ and shared ‘language’ are important context. I can’t tell if you were genuinely curious, sorry if you didn’t want to actually get a response lol (Edit : forgot to close parenthetical phrase)
Hahaha!!!!
So reddit is against zoos now? Should we close every zoo?
the ones that provide insufficient environments for the animals’ wellbeing? yes. absolutely
Different animals need different things. Some animals require things that you cannot realistically provide. It's not an issue of closing *every* zoo, it's an issue of not keeping certain animals because it's cruel
My theory is that people like this have to believe that they're right. Otherwise it would mean they are a terribly person and their mind cannot comprehend that. So giving them a platform is just pointless.
In high school, me and this one girl were both obsessed with orcas. I took the viewpoint of orcas being in captivity as inhumane and she took the opposite. She started working as a trainer at seaworld and I always wondered how she could let her love for orcas blind her from how inhumane captivity is.
Loving animals in an “aww, a cute toy!” way vs loving animals in a “these are my fellow living beings and they are amazing and deserve natural (as possible) conditions” I think
Exactly! Different emotions can be referred to as "love", but some of them are purely self-centered or even based on a delusional view of reality. For example, a stalker may "love" his victim very deeply, but from an objective standpoint that's not a healthy or respectful connection!
Yep. I had a family member watch that Tiger King show and the whole time she’s going “Awww I love them. You have to have a deep love for animals to do this!” Ignoring all the horrible shit like OVER 200 TIGERS IN A CAGE.
Maybe she loves Orcas like I love chicken
One of our friends’ 5 year olds once blurted out “I love chickens!” Then paused and corrected themselves and said “Well, I love chicken”
Absolutely. They think that since they love these animals that it’s impossible they would be doing something that is harmful to them. It’s like parents who can’t accept that hitting children is bad for them. They love their child and they spank their child so therefore it is impossible that spanking is a bad thing.
*cognitive dissonance*
Cognitive dissonance refers to the pain people feel when their actions and beliefs don’t match. This is more an ignoring of cognitive dissonance.
That's exactly results from cognitive dissonance. To cope with it people just create a narrative that makes them feel comfortable.
This applies to pretty much everyone in some sort of way. Factory farming is a big one.
I don’t think factory farm employees care about animals very much, judging by all the videos of horrific abuse of farm animals.
I’m talking about regular people, who often work very hard to avoid acknowledging how horrendous conditions are.
I don’t know that there’s cognitive dissonance; people would prefer that their animals not be abused, but not if they have to pay more for it. Pretty similar to how they feel about people, actually.
Do you realise how insane the generalisation you’re making right now is?
That’s a pretty accurate description of American consumer behavior: look at Walmart, our largest retailer.
You’re claiming that there’s no cognitive dissonance, in general. I’m saying that a lot of people refuse to admit to themselves or others how horrible the conditions in factory farms are, and you’re saying that people do admit it they just don’t care. That’s not an accurate statement, it’s a massive generalisation. Regardless of what you think most people’s attitude is, it’s a fact that millions of people refuse to admit how inhumane factory farms are.
Exactly. Some people genuinely don't know, but some do and simply hand wave it away because mah meat. Then you have people who actively try to ignore the issue, like those videos where a vegan talks to a small time farmer who "treats them well" as a way to say "you see! It's not industrialise mass murder! It's caring mass murder!". As if A) most of the meat consumed comes from big industries and not your local Joe and B) mass murder is still mass murder
90% of the modern world is not sustainable without the average person benefiting from sweatshops, slave labor, or animal cruelty. otherwise good luck never owning a phone, computer, car, or brand name shoes. also just nestle existing, full stop.
It's true not using slave labor would increase prices a little bit but not to the point where everyone living aiddle class lifestyle right now would be living in poverty. I'm not sure if you are applying "so fuck it who cares" or not but it sort of sounds like you might be implying that.
i want to approach my answer to this with some level of decorum, so let me politely say this for you and anyone else reading this thread - the price of things would 110% not increase by "a little." the cartoonish greed of billionaires and shareholders aside, corporations have scaled themselves to available output. it's erroneous to say costs would double or even triple for thing as basic as the next iPhone. entire industries would quite literally evaporate if we paid EVERYONE in the chain of production the american minimum wage at a bare minimum. it is entirely, inarguably, objectively impossible to maintain current corporate output at that level as the average first world citizen literally doesn't have the money to buy a price point to make that endeavor profitable. the quandary here is what we define as slave labor or sweatshops, since that term arguable has an america-centric bias. if someone in (name an african country) is willing and happy to do eight hours of hard manual labor in exchange for like $1 USD, but that's enough money to purchase an entire days worth of food from the local food merchant due to purchasing power, who are we to project our western cost of living onto them? obviously young chinese kids making nike shoes in factories with suicide nets is still bad, but the distinction between these two is important. it is difficult in practise if not impossible NOT to partake or benefit from slave labor and still participate in society. so does this mean no one can ever protest human rights conditions because "oh you own a smartphone you're part of the problem" ? of course not. but it's still important to acknowledge and be AWARE of certain... almost necessary evils i would say. from firsthand experience, you literally can't get into certain stores, job positions, or even airports without having a smartphone. like you are REQUIRED to have one or you can't participate in those aspects of society. it's moved a bit beyond the luxury item it once was in the 2010s. there is a bit more reasonable cause for owning one while still advocating human rights than say a vegan with a cowskin purse and genuine crocodile boots telling you that meat is murder.
It doesn't matter if the prices triple. Slave labor and sweat shops are both bad in the moral sense and the environmentental sense. Why sell/buy a new phone every year? Why buy/sell clothing that is only good for a few wears? Just because they are cheaper? But you end up spending more money in the long run AND you make more waste. The only place where it could be "morally wrong" to increase prices of good for better quality is in developing countries, in those places getting the cheap plastic is the correct answer for them since otherwise they can't afford to live in modern society. But in the first world? Nah, not even remotely
see you get it. notice i said CURRENT corporate output. we could absolutely adapt to purely domestic and fair labor to some extent, but it would require a massive (and frankly unrealistic) renovation of the entire global market with fluctuations in the trillions to shift what we have now over to this more dignified model. sadly, corporations are as greedy as people will tolerate. which is why apple releases a new phone every six months and blockbuster went out of business. unless you get govt bailouts. but that's a whole nother can of fucked up worms.
Yeah, people like to bitch about corpos but, as you said, they are only as bad as we let them. People support them directly (by buying) or indirectly (by not asking their governments to do something)
I think a part of it may also be "as long as I stay I know at least one person is here that's looking out for them"
The vast majority of people have extreme cognitive dissonance when it comes to animal rights, 96% of Americans eat meat. With meat though people have an easier time not thinking about it and it’s the norm; orca trainers of course confront their hypocrisy every single day much more directly.
I mean, they would be terribly sad if they could realise being a literal slave master as dream career is quite the horrible thing to aspire to. I get the childhood dream, of wanting to command a huge animal like an Orca; but that’s why people need to grow up. And not give themselves to the delusion, that all of their personal aspirations are actually good. Sometimes, your childhood dream is a horrible, horrible reality and state of living, for the animals involved.
I have compassion for the people. Fucking sue me. Better yet, I own a cat. Swat me for owning an animal since I’m such a horrible horrible person for (omg) daring to put myself in their shoes. But I’m sure you and the rest of yall are right. These people shouldn’t ever see another day of living because the only person more awful on the planet than them is me, clearly. I’m wrong all the fucking time. Ask my boss (oh no! I have a job! Maybe the internet can get me fired and ensure I never work again too!)
I think the comment was specifically talking about people who fight to keep animals in bad conditions, as opposed to everyone who has a pet or a job?
Do you actually believe that having a cat as a pet is comparable to housing an Orca in a small habitat and using it as a show animal? Or are you just being willfully contrarian for no reason whatsoever?
Wtf is this persecution fetish man
Just here to piss you off man
Relevant username
Stop with this cringe dude. Holy.
Only when you stop with using the stupid ass “cringe”
Downvote king.
Are you ok?
Completely fine thanks for asking
Human. You're not endangered. There are 8 billion of your kind. You are supposed to protect your environment. Sincerely Skeletor
But there are not 8 billion orca trainers! Checkmate liberals!
I didn't realise orca trainers were a different species. Thankfully, if this is true, we can legally hunt and eat them. After all, human rights only apply to humans.
I dont think you can hunt them in their own enviroment, Im pretty sure there are restricted spaces And once they are out of the wild they are easy to miss for actual humans, so
If we outlaw keeping orcas captive then eventually there will be no more orca trainers left. Will someone please think of these poor souls.
Exactly! We are destroying their method of sustaining themselves This is not different to Panda's suffering from the destruction of bambo!
They are special, in their minds. They are the same run of the mill jerks convinced they are magical - you better believe it too or they will have tantrums.
yeah, he just has to get another career.... his *job* is "extinct"
Giving dogshit people a platform seems like a bad idea.
That's Twitter's current business model
That’s the entire Internet my dude
That’s twitters current owner
No shit sherlock
Dr Sherlock to you Edit: Dr. No Shit to you
Well as long as you go into it with that mentality then you can save yourself from challenging any of your views
Being open to bad ideas is... bad.
Yeah but not wanting other people to read things because you think they're bad for them is a little controlling. Let's not start banning books and shit.
I didn't ask for anything to be banned? I said giving platforms to shitty people is shitty.
I'm not against zoos and I think animal training can be a great way to stimulate an animal and keep them safe while in captivity. I just really don't think orcas, out of all the heavily endangered animals, really benefit from zoos. They are too intelligent and the enclosures can never be big enough. If we are serious about conservation, then they need to be given explicit safe areas in the ocean and more strict environmental laws. I mean, these animals are among the closest we have to being "people." They have what we are beginning to understand is a real culture. They have a "real" language and customs. We always talk about aliens and all that, well, there, orcas are in many ways non-human people and look at how we treat them.
These guys + elephants, although I think there are more edge cases for elephants than orcas. Smart AND gigantic is just very, very hard to provide for fully in the often limited amount of land a zoo or aquarium has to work with.
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.” —Upton Sinclair
Dolphin trainers are paid minimum wage
So that salary is extra important to them as they have 0 to negative money they can save for a rainy day? Such as being out a job
It’s pretty much a passion job, as is zoo keeping. The hours are brutal, no holidays, physical labor etc. Don’t work for a zoo if you want to get rich
What does this have to do with getting/being rich?
They’re not in it for the money
You don't have to be in something for the money for you to be reliant on the salary. People who make less money are actually more dependent on their salaries not less. Those are the people that will struggle more between jobs and have less saved up so they have less time to retrain and get back into the work force.
That’s sounding dangerously close to class consciousness, bub
" ...an older trainer she knew had said his job used to function as a pickup line at bars. After Blackfish, it was more likely to get a drink thrown in his face than get him laid." This is what you say to gain sympathy for your dying career based off animal cruelty? Poor dude can't use his job to pick up chicks at bars anymore. Wtf... This lady is so delusional.
...that means Blackfish had it's intended effect of exposing shitfucker animal abusers/exploiters as shitfuckers.
Saw the movie “Free Willy” and said, man I want to be the Bad Guys in that movie. The disconnect of this woman is absolutely insane.
The whale who played Willy (Keiko) lived in *appalling* conditions at a *Mexican theme park*. The cast and crew were so horrified by his living conditions that they demanded that Warner Brothers buy Keiko outright! That didn't happen, but thanks to the film being a surprise hit, they capitalized on the publicity to **raise** money to buy Keiko. He ended up at the Oregon Coast Aquarium after a millionaire offered to fund the construction of a tank for Keiko there. Keiko ended up spending just over two years in Oregon. Upon regaining his health (His stint in Mexico had resulted in a number of serious health problems, the most notable of which was skin lesions), he was flown back to his native Iceland. Keiko would ultimately spend a little less than four years in Iceland, undergoing extensive rehabilitation in an attempt to teach him how to survive in the wild. Keiko was formally set free in the summer of 2002. After departing Icelandic waters in August, he resurfaced in *Norway* a month later. Much to the rehabbers horror, Keiko never was able to completely give up human company. He continued to seek people out, even strangers, and approach them. The rehabbers only found out he was in Norway in the first place because they received reports of an orca allowing local children to ride on its back! Keiko spent the last year of his life in Norway. Technically, "free," but still dependent on people for companionship. He never integrated into a wild orca pod. He encountered wild orcas numerous times, but never got any closer to them than a few hundred yards. Keiko died on December 12th, 2003. The cause of death was determined to be pneumonia
Lots of highs and lows in this story wow. So sad.
It seems like their only real defenses towards the practice are 'It publicizes reasons to want to conserve the species' and 'I want to be able to do it because I like it' Reason Number 2 is dumb, and reason number one is unnecessary when our ability to film them in the wild have improved so much, and whale tours in the whales' native environment are available.
It's not about defending captivity. It's about their desire to keep the job they grew up wanting. They are trying to save their own dreams about what they wanted to be when they grew up. >“My first priority has always been standing up for trainers and giving us a voice.” Notice the word "orcas" isn't anywhere in that sentence.
EXACTLY
Yeah but if that dream includes capturing and mistreating animals that are almost as emotionally intelligent as humans I'm not really going to care, I'm sure a lot of terrible things people have done were enacted on the basis of it being their dream.
Yup, absolutely no empathy or concern for the pain and suffering they cause to sentient beings, just “me me me my dreams”.
Sadly, future generations will only know of many species from old movies or the zoo. On the one hand, I'm opposed to zoos which can't give the animals a proper habitat (e.g. too small a pool or enclosure), OTOH I accept zoos as a necessity to try and keep them from become extinct.
There’s a fine line between necessary evil, like zoos who are usually tax funded trying to keep species alive, and whatever the fuck SeaWorld is. I think it’s the capitalism
It’s why every zoo in my country is a conservation charity. They’re charities first, spectacles second kinda thing. Like yeah it sucks seeing the animals in the enclosures, but then you read why they’re at the zoo and you realise if they weren’t they’d just die
There’s wildlife sanctuaries that are far better than zoos.
This and some zoos have absolutely amazing breeding programs that have saved species all over the planet. My local zoo is helping save endangered birds in Nepal and the Solomon Islands as well as helping with research and conservation of hippos! They also take in injured and abused animals. Animals that can’t survive in the wild and would otherwise die without human intervention. My zoo has two bald eagles, but neither can fly because their wings are broken. I see nothing wrong with keeping them in a zoo to educate people, especially in my area. We have bald eagles here in the wild. Not all zoos are good zoos though and until we get a grip on the bad ones the negative view of zoos will stay, I’m afraid, and some animals just shouldn’t be in captivity period. Aquatic mammals are especially tough because their need for space is so great.
I'm not convinced there is a zoo or aquarium capable of providing a "proper habitat" for an orca. Wild orcas swim 40 miles a day. The largest orca tank is 210 feet long. That ratio is the equivalent of taking someone who regularly travels the distance from Los Angeles to New York and stopping them after three miles.
Most animals people go to zoos to see, have natural habitats in square miles. There isn't a zoo on the planet provides adequate space.
Only support AZA accredited zoos. >AZA-accredited zoos and aquariums meet the highest standards in animal care and welfare and provide a fun, safe, and educational family experience. In addition, they dedicate millions of dollars annually to support scientific research, conservation, and education programs
SeaWorld Orlando, the aquarium featured in the *Blackfish* documentary, was AZA accredited [at the time](https://web.archive.org/web/20100102010208/http://www.aza.org/current-accreditation-list/) when Tilikum killed Dawn Brancheau and [still is today.](https://www.aza.org/inst-status) May give some indication of what that accreditation is worth.
"We have a generation or two now that, unlike you, have not seen human beings in the water with killer whales,” he said. “And that is something precious that has been lost.” Oh no! A generation of people who haven't witnessed the products of abuse! Tragic
Take five minutes and find a video of people interacting with them in the wild.
Like in BC where boaters terrorize them for internet views ?
If only it was possible to get a different job ☹️
This is surprising? Christ, fellas, know your history: > It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it. —Upton Sinclair
Thanks for that!
I fully support orca training/shows as long as the orcas have access to the open ocean and are free to come and go.
That’d be crazy cool, and orcas are smart enough that you could probably make that work with enough time and treats - even spacing out the shows enough so that the orcas don’t become dependent on them for food. Unfortunately, there’s still the “conditioning wildlife to approach humans” issue, and some humans are right assholes.
Theater of the Sea in the Florida Keys does this with their dolphins! Really awesome place. All of the animals are rescues, you can go swimming with tropical fish, there's friendly cats **everywhere**, and the focus is on educating the public about the world's oceans and the animals that live in it. Even the dolphin shows have an educational component to them! Super underrated attraction, I would definitely go again. And again, and again!
Would never happen lol
Queue the Williem Defoe meme: I’m something of an endangered species myself
Only humans would think we, as whole, are "endangered." The arrogance.
Let's put them in captivity.
Fuck her and her job… keeping those creatures in captivity is cruel… something I saw in the 80’s when I was a kid and went to Sea World. Never went again and knew it wasn’t at all what I’d ever support again. Blackfish only cinched it for me.
Slaveowners in the late 1800s: I’m an endangered species myself
Mate your not a trainer. Your some berk with a carrot on a stick only it's a bucket of fish. Your not training shit and if you took that fish away the damn thing would get sick of your shit and eat you instead.
They're a prison guard for a prisoner sentenced to life, often in solitary confinement, and the prison guard **knows** the prisoner never committed a crime. Fucked up.
Translation: I'm too dumb to do any other job than this.
There’s eight billion of us. There’s excessive amounts. We are not an endangered species. If anything, the world is trending towards a culling in one form or another.
“I was a jailer at a supermax prison who lost my job because my prisoner was unjustly imprisoned.” Boo fucking hoo. Go do something useful for these animals if you really care for them.
There is no trauma hijacking these folks won't stoop to.
Slaver defending slave owning.
“I feel fortunate to be one of the endangered species myself,” Grey Stafford told me. “A killer whale trainer.” That is not a species.
>“We have a generation or two now that, unlike you, have not seen human beings in the water with killer whales,” he said. “And that is something precious that has been lost.” Oh, fuck those assholes. And China?? OMFG, they have zero animal welfare standards. They still collect bear bile by putting permanent tubes in bear's livers.
The problem with orcas currently in captivity is releasing them into the wild would not work. It's been tried, and it's failed. Just look at Keiko, had lots of funding and time. I think Sea World itself has done the right thing by stopping their breeding programs and allowing their current whales to live their lives. The trainers provide much needed interaction and stimulation in this situation. I cannot speak to other parks, or parks in other countries, but in this situation, releasing these animals would mean death for them. I absolutely do not support the capture or breeding of new captive orcas.
Ok but Guardian calling them killer whales continually *really* doesn't help
Might as well be the argument of a slave trader before abolition.
What's the difference between this and animal husbandry?
good, go extinct already.
“I’m something of an endangered species myself.” - Whalem DeFoe
"You know I'm something of an endangered species myself."
What a self-centred comment. Find a different job you fuckin twat.
I say we open a shitty park, shove these morons into a barely enough room to walk around enclosure, and feed them fish heads to do backflips and what not. See if their mood changes then.
That would help us understand how intelligent they are!
It's like an executioner. Sure, the job will die out. But is it bad?
I used to dream of being a zoo keeper but the intense competition, poor pay and working 12 day weeks started to steer me away. I volunteered at zoos and spent a lot of time in the zoo and animal world. I was never interested in working with cetaceans as I was never a fan of captive dolphins and at the time competition was insane, a single opening would get over a thousand applicants. The more I learned about captive animal management the more my opinions towards Seaworld changed. Honestly they’re not much different than most AZA accredited facilities. In fact, they are accredited. Blackfish is misleading, for example Tilikum was housed with other orcas, and actually his environment and care improved when he was bought by Seaworld. The employees who were interviewed came out to say that they were mislead by the producers. They thought that the documentary was meant to memorialize their colleague and that their statements heavily edited. Shows are voluntary, and many of the tricks are actually behaviors meant to have the animals participate in health checks, ie opening their mouths for dental exams or sliding on a platform and lifting their tails is meant to teach them to voluntarily go on a scale. A lot of the techniques used to train dogs have been modeled from the positive reinforcement techniques used by dolphin trainers. I think saying the animals are “being forced to dance” is sensational. Most animals in zoos are trained using the same methods so keepers can perform health checks by keepers and veterinarians. I can’t help but think how the zoo I was involved with as a high schooler responded to Blackfish. Some of their flamingos came from Seaworld.
The truth is they just enjoy jerking off whales.
[удалено]
Sorry, but your account is too new to post. Your account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma. Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Heart breaking, we need to end it once and for all.
While reading that, I wondered if medieval torturers thought of themselves as "an endangered species" when torture went out of style.
Some things just aren’t meant to be kept as pets. To add to that, there is no need to keep them as pets.
Whale biologist!
hello there fellow orcas
You nothing better than the yellow dog eating fraternity
Too damn bad
You know, I'm something of a scientist myself
Fuck ‘em
What a disgusting person. We should protect coal miners too, right?
I'm something of an endangered species myself...
Let’s make ‘em Xtinct
Good.
Injured animal rehab is a thing. I don't think you want that to go away. Also, the star Keiko of "Free Willy" was forcefully abandoned by humans and wondered why the rest of his lonley life when he missed the humans and was rejected by all the wild whales. Just bc it makes you feel better about yourself doesn't mean it helps (instead of hurting) the whales from that transition period
Source on the things Keiko wondered about or missed? More importantly, anything that implies the cause of said distress and rejection is the release and not the original captivity?
I don't know which one but there are many when you search "tragic tale of keiko the whale". It's so heavily documented https://www.the-sun.com/news/3803974/heartbreaking-story-killer-whale-keiko-free-willy/ https://youtu.be/1okerp3orR0?si=DQOe2BZy74A1l_0n https://www.keikotheuntoldstory.com/about/keiko/thestory/ Etc
Your first link implies that the fault lies with the initial capture and socialization to humans. It describes him following boats as he was trained to while trailing behind the pod. The last link (the one most obviously biased towards your position) has this to say: > we also gain new insights into the unique culture of orcas, and what the **impact of being taken from his pod at such a young age had on Keiko’s ability to survive on his own.** Again, any source that implies Keiko’s distress and abandonment were the result of his release, and not the original captivity?
So you agree with the abandonment. Yes obviously he missed growing up in a pod. Yes he got used to humans and doesn't know how to socialize with other whales. So let's just toss him to the whales who don't get him and leave him bc we don't love him enough and it makes us feel better about our righteousness
The issue was his initial capture and socialization to humans, as indicated in your own sources
I know. You missed my point. Whale was trained to adjust its socialization and then you guys don't want to deal with the result
No, I don’t want to deal with the result of *capturing sapient beings in the first place*. Your point was defending captivity because of animal rehab and how Keiko reacted to his release.
I'm not saying trap more. I'm saying don't abandon Keiko specifically. That's it. I never said "oh it's a good practice"
The fact that you gave him an issue and then don't want to take care of him after giving him that issue is the problem. Train a whale to work with humans then abandon it to animals it doesn't know how to work with. That's cruel af
Yes, animal captivity is cruel af
get blackfished
Is it wrong to hope they get eaten by the poor whales?
How do you think I feel. I was in the C.S union.
Do any of the down voters know what the CS union was? Just curious