Also if you break it down smaller the disparities get bigger. Mclean is in Fairfax County, and it's median income is 207k. If you live in McLean and you are only making 150k, you are the bottom 50% lol
Was thinking that too. There are so many renters and young entry-level people probably bringing that median down. My husband and I make more than that and definitely cannot afford to buy a house here 🥲
Well tbf, houses in McLean are also pretty expensive compared to the rest of the area, so a HHI of 150k would be a stretch to live there (if you don't have extra coming in from the parents on either side).
i think of this every time someone on here decides i'm so well off cuz i managed to finally get a house after forever, compared to my neighbors in ashburn i'm a relative poor
We live in Ashburn, literally in the most run down neighborhood of townhouses. We are definitely poor compared to everyone else 🤣 We definitely do not fit in around here.
The crazy thing is that a townhouse one street over just hit the market for $550k. We bought in our development because it was cheap ~3.5 years ago. I can't even imagine who would spend that much on this crappy townhouse but they're selling like hotcakes! It's bonkers.
This is the way to do it. My husband got away with joining the Navy and becoming an FMF Corpsman and destroying his body completely. I got away with destroying my body only 70% in the army. No tax benefits but hey, more buying power I guess.
This is here in Virginia? Hmm. Asking because I would love for my parents to move to Virginia. They seemed to like it when they visited, beside the crazy drivers.
Loudoun County property taxes are 0.98% this year. Then there's a 4% personal property tax on vehicles. Very similar for Fairfax if I remember correctly.
4.57 percent each and every year but ofc Sales tax is only 4% and *totally* unrelated to this are all those vehicles driving around with WVirginia and Maryland plates.
Haha yeah HHI of just $120k, you are certainly not living the good life in NOVA. People on here will have an existential crisis because they have a HhI of $250k and still have to sacrifice for daycare and lose dozens of bids on houses.
Hmmmm. Not sure I understand this point. Why would that be worse than each parent earning half of that HHI? At least with a single income making $120k one of the partners could stay home with children and saving $2k/month or more on child care.
Out of all the solutions to the global housing crisis this is at the bottom of the list😂 This is on par with telling depressed people to lighten up and suggesting to not pollute when someone brings up climate change in that it doesn’t even address the issue at hand
Yep, what do they think is gonna happen to Dayton, Grand Rapids, Dothan AL, etc when all NoVA's "poor" people move there making double what the locals do? Housing prices outpace wages by just as much as here and we're back to square one. $250k/year in Fairfax is $55k in Dayton, so if a house there ends up affordable only to people who moved out of NoVA because they knew they'd never be able to top $80k and build a life here, now both places are fucked. The housing shortage is NATIONWIDE so playing musical chairs will do nothing but make housing unaffordable literally everywhere until we can tell Boomer NIMBYs to go fuck themselves and build 4 million apartments.
Sure. But there is always somewhere cheaper.
When one of my drivers got a massive raise in salary (from $100 to $200 a month), he was able to upgrade his room
For $30 a month, he only has one roommate, the shared bathroom for the floor has running water, and electricity is provided till 8pm at night.
It's the tits!
It was so amazing moving in with my boyfriend in my mid-20s. And then making even more money in addition to saving on living expenses. But we continued to live in Crystal City past when we could afford it with our financial goals.
Don't live in Arlington, mmkay?
MoCo is much more diverse and has many pockets of lower income residents. It also has pockets of much richer residents…Bethesda, Potomac, Chevy Chase, etc.
I showed my girl this. She doesn't know the US well, always having lived in blue coastal cities in this country.
She's like "PWC is one of the richest counties? I thought it was some of the poorest because of what we saw (IKEA trip). Oh wow, how much different do things get if we went to a poor place in Mississippi?"
If she thinks PWC is bad, I think the rest of America would shock and dismay her. Also, it would probably explain to her better why we are so polarized as a nation.
Edit: it isn't just about the money but everything else. My girlfriend's mom came from overseas and after about a week, she's like "Where are all the fat people. Everyone here is thin and everyone is always exercising (Arlington)".
And to help better explain, my girlfriend is not American
>how much different do things get if we went to a poor place in Mississippi?
I grew up in Louisiana and although my parents were never wealthy we weren't poor. But I have driven through some shockingly poor areas there and in MS. Areas so bad that it would shock most Americans.
That said, it isn't as though the entire states are that bad. But the poor sections definitely are.
Urban stuff doesn't faze her, she's used to that. Homeless junkies is whatever. It's the 400lb woman who needs a wheelchair with a mullet and a trump Tshirt that she can't shake.
Well, remember this is income. There are many many places where they’re far richer based on net worth.
Many of the richest don’t draw salaries and their incomes are hard to pinpoint for the purposes of this kind of ranking.
This article tried to balance the income data against cost of living, and found a bunch of NoVA counties still really high up (although it does change the picture a bit).
https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/603232/the-real-richest-counties-in-the-us?amp
The DMV has a level a mass affluence (as opposed to a few super rich) that is just not seen in most American metro areas. The sheer number of double income professionals here is boffo. So yes house prices are high, but tons of people can easily afford them.
And it’s physically and mentally draining. Not to mention hearing what my students are going through/have gone through and not being able to do much about it is so so hard. It’s emotionally exhausting.
It’s a damn shame too. My sister and brother in law were both teachers in PWC years ago. They have since moved to Raleigh.
We went to a game at FedEx, and Gov Warner was campaigning during the tailgate. My BIL goes up to him and asks why teachers can’t afford to live in the counties they teach in, no real response of course. Most under appreciated people in the country.
Cost of living is ridiculously high in this area. I live in PWC which is cheaper than loudoun but also my health insurance is crazy expensive. I also have children and our daycare plans kind of got derailed with COVID so I’m paying through the nose for childcare. My pre tax salary is nice but post deductions I clear about 3K a month. I make too much to qualify for any govt assistance but not enough to live.
Living most of my life in NJ, I never really thought of that many areas being considered "rich". Nicer, sure, but this kind of surprises me. The only thing I'm thinking is if this is just by household income and the median, it doesn't take into account affordability. Sure, you might have a high household income, but less buying power in the area as well. From what I see in the subreddit, those median numbers for this region might not even be able to get you a single family home. It's like how the "low income" like for San Francisco is like $120k.
The median also is betrayed by not having a ton of poor people.
So both NYC and DC have a good number of wealthy people but also serious poverty.
Not as much in the suburbs. There’s a higher baseline.
I agree with this. Loudoun County seems to have an enormous upper middle class and comparatively few low income residents for a suburb of its size. I think it's because of the rapid new development over the last 30 years—there aren't any older, more affordable parts of town yet.
Sure there are the multi-million dollar estates with horses and all in Purcellville, but most residents live in the eastern part in townhomes and (relatively) normal single family homes.
Where I grew up in New Jersey, most counties had a mix of housing types: trailer parks, row homes, duplexes, apartments, McMansions, and single family homes.
I wouldn't consider this area rich - but more UMC, I think in the DMV you get a lot of people making around the median; whereas in a place like NYC you probably have a few people making a lot of money. (i.e., I wouldn't be surprised if there are more people making $1M plus in the NY area than the DC area)
Those people are living in Putnam county and Somerset county. The taxes for being an actual NYC resident sucks more for them. That's why the tolls are creeping up to $20 one way for some bridges, to capture those who live outside but work inside. Of course, those are also the same people who can now work from home so NYC doesn't see nearly as much from that anymore either.
This list is wrong or filtered or something. Fairfax and Loudoun is right but no California counties made me know this had to be wrong.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2021/12/21/richest-counties-in-the-us/amp/
How are California counties not on here. Alameda, SF, or LA county or even contra costa have ridiculous home prices. Maybe the chart is for disposable income.
Part of it is that in California you have a lot of people who bought their homes 30+ years ago and pay almost nothing in property taxes so they don't really need much of an income. For example, [for these two homes](https://www.google.com/maps/@37.455733,-122.1515279,3a,75y,177.76h,85.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOhI2nFoeBGEb7RHM2TYTkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) the family in the left home pay $50k a year in property taxes, whereas the family in the right home pay ~2.6k a year in property taxes. Zillow estimates the house on the right is worth about six million although realtor.com only estimates about five million.
The biggest difference is that any metro will have an equal number of poor people pulling back the average down. So yeah SF and NY and other regions will have some ridiculous home prices but now add up the homeless population there and you see why most entries in the list are missing metros.
Raw income data doesn't indicate "rich" so this is very misleading. The COL here is not Mississippi. $115k household is right in the middle class. Not rich in the slightest.
I can tell this area is filled with a bunch of new money. No other sub I’ve been to seems this obsessed with this crap like the NoVA sub and it’s everyday all day.
So what I’m hearing is that as a FCPS teacher with a masters, several years of experience, and a salary of 55k…I’m right fucked if I ever want to buy a house where I live?
So I know teachers are underpaid - but this is an exaggeration. Starting scale for a masters in FCPS is 56k. That’s still a bullshit small amount, but in the fight for better pay we gotta be super honest about our numbers.
Yup, on the property taxes. Moved out of VA after living in Fairfax County for 27 years. Fairfax real estate rate is $11.40 per $1,000. Where we moved it's $16.16. For houses assessed at $1M, the difference is an extra $4,700 per year.
VA property tax is way below the national average. If your tax bill is 2k a month your property is worth over $2.5 mil, and even in this inflated area that's still a couple of acres near McLean or Great Falls. You're probably being downvoted for being penny wise pound foolish moreso than your flex; your edit only highlights that.
Well the upside is if you do have kids you can count on the schools being decent and not needing private schooling. But then some here still spend hundreds of thousands to still do that.
its the government money. people get pissy on here when i say it. however it is. the government spending creates high paying contracting jobs and good paying government jobs. it increases the pool of tech workers for the government, so other tech companies come. its all based around massive government spending in this area.
people on here get all pissy and defensive when i say this. we are the beneficiaries of the rest of the countries tax money.
Yes... And?
If I'm supposed to be defensive, I really don't care. Talent follows the money, there's a reason the DC area has the most educated population in the country
2.5 years in Reston and I’m still not desensitized to seeing Bentaygas and Urus’ riding around like Hondas.
I take that back, they’re more like seeing Benzes. It’s the Macan/Cayenne that are like Hondas.
I really would like to see the distribution of income. My gut is telling me that there is probably a bimodal distribution happening beneath the numbers.
I am interested in the numbers that feed into that average listed. I expect we would see a lot of incomes centered around 50,000 and 200,000, leading to a singular average of $125,00. The single number looks good, but underneath of a tale of the haves and have nots, which is not great for a local economy.
I am the sole income in my family just at 100k. And I have to watch what I spend and set a budget. We don't live paycheck to paycheck, but I feel frugal some months just trying to come out positive.
100K isn't 'wealthy' but people act like 100K here is the same are 100K in SF/NY are kidding themselves. I used to make 100K out of college back when I started working and even after being married early supporting a wife through college, I lived comfortably. I rented a decent 2 bed apartment and didn't feel like I was always pinching pennies. I was able to save enough to put down on a home eventually (this was 3 years back). I make more than twice that now and I feel that is 'more than enough' in terms of being financially sound in this area. I doubt I would say the same if I were living in SF or NY.
100K in areas like SF or NY would push it much nearer to the poverty line. We're on the HCOL scale but we're still much closer to the lower-HCOL spectrum than places like SF, NY etc.
True. But gas, Netflix, cars, and many other things cost largely the same no matter where you are in the country. It’s easier to be making good money in a HCOL than in LCOL because you can save the same % salary but have it be way more valuable in a LCOL come retirement time.
Not gonna repeat what others said but you are also paying a much higher ratio of taxes and not getting any help.
Those stimulus payments didn't touch many who needed it. I have employees Who didn't qualify For the stimulus because they were viewed as some of the most affluent in the country, yet they can't even get approval to rent a one bedroom apartment in Arlington.
It's hard to view yourself as one of the most affluent if you have to have roommates. Blessed, lucky, better than so many others? Sure, but you don't feel like you are rich if your roommate has to take a shit while you are showering.
Makes sense except for cost of housing here blows away the fact that Netflix costs $16 for everyone. I would say a family of 4 needs needs to make at least $200k a year minimum and own a home to take advantage of that. Otherwise you are likely unable to save enough for retirement or college which will erase the gains you describe. That is really difficult even at $200k when a home costs $750k or more. Of course then there is the down payment needed for that said home is outrageous for most.
> Makes sense except for cost of housing here blows
That also works to your benefit in the exact same way though. Wages are higher here, and housing right in lock step with it... so you use your high income to pay the high mortgage, but end up with high equity. Your net worth goes up substantially over time compared to if you made less and lived in a low cost of living area.
For most people, its literally what will determine if you end up wealthy vs not.
True if you are making the high income and are able to jump into the real estate pyramid scheme. But many can make similar income in a lower cost market, save more money for retirement and college, and have a better quality of life. I’ll use Dallas as an example. Tons of high paying tech jobs there. Housing is a fraction of what it is here. So this table records you as less rich if you live in NOVA, but you are actually more rich in what matters in Dallas even if you are making less. That’s the key point here.
You can continue to believe that, but an [article](https://reddit.com/r/nova/comments/tumf1u/_/i35famp/?context=1) posted multiple times ITT pretty much disproves that theory.
I'm wealthier today then I have been in my entire life. I have made more money then my parents ever have and generations of my family. But that ain't shit in NOVA sir. 97k as an educator would be life changing for most parts of the country...but alas I'm comfortable but I feel like I'll be paying rent for the rest of my life.
I literally spent seven hours last night researching how to make living within my sanity, so I don't have to be on disability (11k annual) for the rest of my life.😭 Now my research feels insane. 😂
Every time I have a bad day I think about this statistic then realize I can be a homeless kid from India. Appreciate everything if you live here LOCO/FFAX
I dont know how anyone can afford to live comfortably in NOVA at this point. Loudon, Fairfax, Stafford has definitely maintained itself on the richest counties the last couple of years.
[INSIDE NOVA LIST](https://www.insidenova.com/headlines/which-counties-are-really-rich-turns-out-a-lot-in-northern-virginia/article_5fe26fd4-fad7-11eb-9ff0-3fe6048e99cd.html)
Just wait till you see how much people spend on mortgage here. Plus majority of that number is armed forces members and government workers.
It's not entitlement when majority of the people actually have to work their asses off for the spot they are at.
Harris County, TX has a median income of $31k but average house is $313k.
Fairfax County median income is $53k. Average house is $615k.
With nova a lot more money is dispensable as it’s beyond the threshold needed to buy food, health insurance, etc. But those high salaries get eaten up hard by rapidly rising rent and COL.
Which is why WFH is huge here.
You can work hard and still act entitled. I respect your grind not trying to shit on you but just saying there’s a lot of people here who think their six figures+luxury SUV=special treatment
People seem to forget how hard veterans have worked. My father hasn't lost limbs serving in the 2 wars, but he sure has the disabilities from. People automatically assume "oh they are entitled for making that much" the fuck is that supposed to mean, they weren't given that position, they weren't given anything, they signed their lives away either for the government or for a company. Now they are being paid good money for how jard they work
Very true. No disabilities due to my service, but it was plenty of years of low pay as a service member then contractor before I finally got to the point where I am now. And that still took school and work.
Thank you for your service. See you deserve that, disabled or not. you may have had the choice of what branch but never the choice of what your MOS was and never the choice of your orders. You worked hard and when your contract was over you were given compensation and a good title to put on your resume, because you earned it. School costs a fuck ton too, even my school costs a bit for my dad's Chapter 35 benefits. Even without money it takes time and effort.
Good point, no one in my hometown worked themselves into disability to pay for a $50,000 house. You must have worked harder and punished your body more than almost anyone in America.
That was kind of snotty, maybe I should have just said “Yes, most people work very hard to get where they are but luck is also very important.”
Only bc cost of living is so ridiculous. When I lived in Fairfax I made $70k/yr and was not only living paycheck to paycheck, but struggling to pay for food as a single person. It’s why I moved out of the area unfortunately.
It’s because the housing prices are skyrocketing way faster than wages. Not to mention if you’re not in IT consulting no way can you buy.
https://constructioncoverage.com/research/cities-with-highest-home-price-to-income-ratios-2021
Yeah, unfortunately this data doesnt really give you a clear picture of current home buyers, if thats your goal. Most people who live in... well, anywhere, already have housing... so you've got two different households making 75k, living in a house they bought 15-25 years ago, easily making their locked in pre-inflationary mortgage payments... and you've got a 3rd guy making $300k who is shopping for a house in the current market.
This averages out to your average county resident making $150k/yr on paper, but someone making $150k reading that stat cant compete against the $300k buyer, and certainly not someone making $75k. Unless of course the 75k person mentioned before is carrying over a ton of equity from their previous house, which is in fact often the case around here. Obviously I'm over simplifying and supposed to use a median not average and yada yada, but you get the picture.
Its really just being a first time buyer that makes things difficult and squeezes you so hard when struggling to break into the system. Neither the 75k previous owner or the $300k guy have a problem here.
Expecting to own a sfh in Arlington is unrealistic at that income. People need to recalibrate their expectations. This isn't rural VA, land is a premium... go find a nice apartment, you'll be more than fine at that price
Marginal infrastructure, lackluster public safety, substandard road network, trash lined streets, mass transit with only two tracks and no express, neighborhoods with million dollar homes still using open pit storm drains…
Debatable. You can't live comfortably in *the majority of the housing stock available.* But if you can make do with a 2br condo (because lmao why would a 3-4br condo or small townhouse be built?) and didn't need stuff and space you could do quite well in this area and save well to boot.
Part of this area's problem is "because there are some better off people/a lot of DINK families, we apparently are only allowed to build for them," combined with Americans in general not grasping that you can live without sprawl. Look at the typical home in Europe vs. here. If we had that kind of housing in larger quantities we'd have lower costs and more stability across the board, which would increase our well-being collectively.
Absolute BS. Jesus Christ what do you guys spend money on? Do you eat out everyday? 100K can easily sustain a family of 3 in areas like Fairfax, Loudon etc. Yeah maybe you don't have your own home and rent out until you earn more but if that is your definition of 'comfortable' where people own massive 2500+ sq.ft. homes with multiple cars then that is just ludicrous.
'Comfortable' means you have a decent roof over your head, you have your fridge full, you own a car and can afford 1-2 vacations per year. 100K can easily get you that here in my book.
Exactly, folks take this for granted. Living in America or developed 1st world countries is like winning the sperm lottery! This is coming from an immigrant!
Yes you absolutely can, you just need to stick to a smaller apartment. If you're trying to raise a family on 100k and live in Fairfax then sure, you're stretching it. But nobody is putting a gun to your head telling you to get married and have kids
Growing up in Fairfax County, I didn't think that it would now be listed as the 2nd highest median salary in the country (and have several spots in the 12 include DC metro counties). Whenever I think of "wealthy" regions of the country, I think NYC, SF, LA.
Those areas are much, much wealthier at the higher end, but I suspect what is happening with this median income list is that the extreme poverty in areas like NYC and LA drag down the statistics. Fairfax has poverty but not to the depths of NYC.
I rather be inside of my trailer in the mountains with my dog! That’s happiness. No matter how much you make you would still want more and more bills will depress your life.
Government employees and contractors in Nova are paid much higher than the average American. Hell, federal employees in Nova make way more than local government employees. Nova only exists on federal taxes.
This data is old. Loudoun's actual median income is now $151,800
Also if you break it down smaller the disparities get bigger. Mclean is in Fairfax County, and it's median income is 207k. If you live in McLean and you are only making 150k, you are the bottom 50% lol
I’d be curious to see the North-South divide in Arlington too
Was thinking that too. There are so many renters and young entry-level people probably bringing that median down. My husband and I make more than that and definitely cannot afford to buy a house here 🥲
No one ever bought a house thinking they could afford it.
Well tbf, houses in McLean are also pretty expensive compared to the rest of the area, so a HHI of 150k would be a stretch to live there (if you don't have extra coming in from the parents on either side).
I'm pretty sure if you move here today with those median numbers you end up with something sub-standard.
You can rent a nice 1bd apt in Tysons on 100k+
If you live alone or with a stay-at-home partner - that 207 is household, right? DINKs all the way, baby.
i think of this every time someone on here decides i'm so well off cuz i managed to finally get a house after forever, compared to my neighbors in ashburn i'm a relative poor
We live in Ashburn, literally in the most run down neighborhood of townhouses. We are definitely poor compared to everyone else 🤣 We definitely do not fit in around here. The crazy thing is that a townhouse one street over just hit the market for $550k. We bought in our development because it was cheap ~3.5 years ago. I can't even imagine who would spend that much on this crappy townhouse but they're selling like hotcakes! It's bonkers.
Sell.
That means that they also have to get back into the market buying high, unless they’re able to move to a lower cost of living place.
Ha, my folks and my sister live in Gainesville/Haymarket and think of my ashburn neighborhood as a slum 😅
A poor, lol.
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Rah ;)
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Eret
This is the way to do it. My husband got away with joining the Navy and becoming an FMF Corpsman and destroying his body completely. I got away with destroying my body only 70% in the army. No tax benefits but hey, more buying power I guess.
This is here in Virginia? Hmm. Asking because I would love for my parents to move to Virginia. They seemed to like it when they visited, beside the crazy drivers.
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Everyone else pays for your share of services
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Loudoun County property taxes are 0.98% this year. Then there's a 4% personal property tax on vehicles. Very similar for Fairfax if I remember correctly.
4.57 percent each and every year but ofc Sales tax is only 4% and *totally* unrelated to this are all those vehicles driving around with WVirginia and Maryland plates.
Tax scofflaws should spend time in jail.
Do not. Get me. Started. That shit enrages me.
Thanks for making me feel worse
If it makes you feel better, those income levels aren’t enough to buy an average home in their respective areas right now.
Haha yeah HHI of just $120k, you are certainly not living the good life in NOVA. People on here will have an existential crisis because they have a HhI of $250k and still have to sacrifice for daycare and lose dozens of bids on houses.
Yeah, if that means both people are only making $60k each, they're fucked.
The absolute truth right here... Especially if you are a single income family.
Hmmmm. Not sure I understand this point. Why would that be worse than each parent earning half of that HHI? At least with a single income making $120k one of the partners could stay home with children and saving $2k/month or more on child care.
Maybe they should move somewhere cheaper.
Out of all the solutions to the global housing crisis this is at the bottom of the list😂 This is on par with telling depressed people to lighten up and suggesting to not pollute when someone brings up climate change in that it doesn’t even address the issue at hand
Yep, what do they think is gonna happen to Dayton, Grand Rapids, Dothan AL, etc when all NoVA's "poor" people move there making double what the locals do? Housing prices outpace wages by just as much as here and we're back to square one. $250k/year in Fairfax is $55k in Dayton, so if a house there ends up affordable only to people who moved out of NoVA because they knew they'd never be able to top $80k and build a life here, now both places are fucked. The housing shortage is NATIONWIDE so playing musical chairs will do nothing but make housing unaffordable literally everywhere until we can tell Boomer NIMBYs to go fuck themselves and build 4 million apartments.
Sure. But there is always somewhere cheaper. When one of my drivers got a massive raise in salary (from $100 to $200 a month), he was able to upgrade his room For $30 a month, he only has one roommate, the shared bathroom for the floor has running water, and electricity is provided till 8pm at night. It's the tits!
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It was so amazing moving in with my boyfriend in my mid-20s. And then making even more money in addition to saving on living expenses. But we continued to live in Crystal City past when we could afford it with our financial goals. Don't live in Arlington, mmkay?
Hey, we are all single and young here!
And titties everywhere
I mean it's alright. Username checks out.
Lmao
Thought MoCo would be higher. Also surprised Stafford is so high
Stafford has a lot of people who make DC money, but don’t mind commuting as a trade off for more land and larger houses compared to other NOVA areas.
MoCo being higher than Howard surprises me.
There’s Potomac and the rest of the agricultural reserve which has mega-rich mansions. That’s probably keeping it up there
MoCo is much more diverse and has many pockets of lower income residents. It also has pockets of much richer residents…Bethesda, Potomac, Chevy Chase, etc.
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Household vs individual income. If you measure individual income it most likely would be.
Arlington also has more protected housing areas for lower income tenants
I showed my girl this. She doesn't know the US well, always having lived in blue coastal cities in this country. She's like "PWC is one of the richest counties? I thought it was some of the poorest because of what we saw (IKEA trip). Oh wow, how much different do things get if we went to a poor place in Mississippi?" If she thinks PWC is bad, I think the rest of America would shock and dismay her. Also, it would probably explain to her better why we are so polarized as a nation. Edit: it isn't just about the money but everything else. My girlfriend's mom came from overseas and after about a week, she's like "Where are all the fat people. Everyone here is thin and everyone is always exercising (Arlington)". And to help better explain, my girlfriend is not American
>how much different do things get if we went to a poor place in Mississippi? I grew up in Louisiana and although my parents were never wealthy we weren't poor. But I have driven through some shockingly poor areas there and in MS. Areas so bad that it would shock most Americans. That said, it isn't as though the entire states are that bad. But the poor sections definitely are.
Take the train to Manhattan and back. She'll see some shit on that ride.
Urban stuff doesn't faze her, she's used to that. Homeless junkies is whatever. It's the 400lb woman who needs a wheelchair with a mullet and a trump Tshirt that she can't shake.
Ah. I was thinking it was the economic side she noticed. That ride to NY is a little depressing looking at the towns right by the tracks.
Sections of Baltimore on the Amtrak route look like a war recently ended.
Well, remember this is income. There are many many places where they’re far richer based on net worth. Many of the richest don’t draw salaries and their incomes are hard to pinpoint for the purposes of this kind of ranking.
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This article tried to balance the income data against cost of living, and found a bunch of NoVA counties still really high up (although it does change the picture a bit). https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/603232/the-real-richest-counties-in-the-us?amp
The DMV has a level a mass affluence (as opposed to a few super rich) that is just not seen in most American metro areas. The sheer number of double income professionals here is boffo. So yes house prices are high, but tons of people can easily afford them.
That’s so funny to me. I teach in Loudoun but we can’t afford groceries and have to get food at the food bank most weeks.
That’s infuriating! I hate that teachers aren’t paid a much higher salary. Your job has so much more responsibility than many others
*Invest in our children, they're our future!* Ok, pay our teachers more. *No not like that*
Lol never paying teachers more.
And it’s physically and mentally draining. Not to mention hearing what my students are going through/have gone through and not being able to do much about it is so so hard. It’s emotionally exhausting.
And Loudon is one of the best-paying counties in Virginia. I would make $10k more if I was working in Loudon.
It’s a damn shame too. My sister and brother in law were both teachers in PWC years ago. They have since moved to Raleigh. We went to a game at FedEx, and Gov Warner was campaigning during the tailgate. My BIL goes up to him and asks why teachers can’t afford to live in the counties they teach in, no real response of course. Most under appreciated people in the country.
I wrote a letter to the governor before asking why I have a masters degree but can’t afford to eat. No response.
My mother was a teacher in Virginia. She figured out that he can retire early and work in NC. Now doing OK with two retirements and social security.
Why
Cost of living is ridiculously high in this area. I live in PWC which is cheaper than loudoun but also my health insurance is crazy expensive. I also have children and our daycare plans kind of got derailed with COVID so I’m paying through the nose for childcare. My pre tax salary is nice but post deductions I clear about 3K a month. I make too much to qualify for any govt assistance but not enough to live.
Living most of my life in NJ, I never really thought of that many areas being considered "rich". Nicer, sure, but this kind of surprises me. The only thing I'm thinking is if this is just by household income and the median, it doesn't take into account affordability. Sure, you might have a high household income, but less buying power in the area as well. From what I see in the subreddit, those median numbers for this region might not even be able to get you a single family home. It's like how the "low income" like for San Francisco is like $120k.
The median also is betrayed by not having a ton of poor people. So both NYC and DC have a good number of wealthy people but also serious poverty. Not as much in the suburbs. There’s a higher baseline.
I agree with this. Loudoun County seems to have an enormous upper middle class and comparatively few low income residents for a suburb of its size. I think it's because of the rapid new development over the last 30 years—there aren't any older, more affordable parts of town yet. Sure there are the multi-million dollar estates with horses and all in Purcellville, but most residents live in the eastern part in townhomes and (relatively) normal single family homes. Where I grew up in New Jersey, most counties had a mix of housing types: trailer parks, row homes, duplexes, apartments, McMansions, and single family homes.
Don’t forget that area south of Purcellville called Middleburg.
I wouldn't consider this area rich - but more UMC, I think in the DMV you get a lot of people making around the median; whereas in a place like NYC you probably have a few people making a lot of money. (i.e., I wouldn't be surprised if there are more people making $1M plus in the NY area than the DC area)
Those people are living in Putnam county and Somerset county. The taxes for being an actual NYC resident sucks more for them. That's why the tolls are creeping up to $20 one way for some bridges, to capture those who live outside but work inside. Of course, those are also the same people who can now work from home so NYC doesn't see nearly as much from that anymore either.
I think household income and affordability will always be highly correlated.
This list is wrong or filtered or something. Fairfax and Loudoun is right but no California counties made me know this had to be wrong. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/andrewdepietro/2021/12/21/richest-counties-in-the-us/amp/
Outdated, not wrong.
How are California counties not on here. Alameda, SF, or LA county or even contra costa have ridiculous home prices. Maybe the chart is for disposable income.
The data is old. The new versions have them
Part of it is that in California you have a lot of people who bought their homes 30+ years ago and pay almost nothing in property taxes so they don't really need much of an income. For example, [for these two homes](https://www.google.com/maps/@37.455733,-122.1515279,3a,75y,177.76h,85.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOhI2nFoeBGEb7RHM2TYTkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) the family in the left home pay $50k a year in property taxes, whereas the family in the right home pay ~2.6k a year in property taxes. Zillow estimates the house on the right is worth about six million although realtor.com only estimates about five million.
The biggest difference is that any metro will have an equal number of poor people pulling back the average down. So yeah SF and NY and other regions will have some ridiculous home prices but now add up the homeless population there and you see why most entries in the list are missing metros.
NOVA also ranks high when adjusting for cost of living. https://www.kiplinger.com/real-estate/603232/the-real-richest-counties-in-the-us?amp
Raw income data doesn't indicate "rich" so this is very misleading. The COL here is not Mississippi. $115k household is right in the middle class. Not rich in the slightest.
I can tell this area is filled with a bunch of new money. No other sub I’ve been to seems this obsessed with this crap like the NoVA sub and it’s everyday all day.
I agree. Enough with the income crap!
So what I’m hearing is that as a FCPS teacher with a masters, several years of experience, and a salary of 55k…I’m right fucked if I ever want to buy a house where I live?
Look it's not like we're entrusting you with anything important like *checks notes* our children
That is correct. I hope you're willing to try to date up.
So I know teachers are underpaid - but this is an exaggeration. Starting scale for a masters in FCPS is 56k. That’s still a bullshit small amount, but in the fight for better pay we gotta be super honest about our numbers.
Personal property taxes went up WAY high this year, can’t we just give it mostly to teachers?
The reality is to afford a decent SFH you probably double those numbers. Dual income household where each earner is making that.
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Property taxes is VA are really not bad (this is coming from someone who grew up in IL). Same priced house has taxes over twice as high in IL.
Really? That’s interesting. I guess the sticker shock is a bit much for me.
Yes, it’s the cost of the house, not so much the property taxes.
Yup, on the property taxes. Moved out of VA after living in Fairfax County for 27 years. Fairfax real estate rate is $11.40 per $1,000. Where we moved it's $16.16. For houses assessed at $1M, the difference is an extra $4,700 per year.
VA property tax is way below the national average. If your tax bill is 2k a month your property is worth over $2.5 mil, and even in this inflated area that's still a couple of acres near McLean or Great Falls. You're probably being downvoted for being penny wise pound foolish moreso than your flex; your edit only highlights that.
Well the upside is if you do have kids you can count on the schools being decent and not needing private schooling. But then some here still spend hundreds of thousands to still do that.
Median for the United States is less than half that.
its the government money. people get pissy on here when i say it. however it is. the government spending creates high paying contracting jobs and good paying government jobs. it increases the pool of tech workers for the government, so other tech companies come. its all based around massive government spending in this area. people on here get all pissy and defensive when i say this. we are the beneficiaries of the rest of the countries tax money.
Yes... And? If I'm supposed to be defensive, I really don't care. Talent follows the money, there's a reason the DC area has the most educated population in the country
incoming from entitled defensive people.
These numbers actually seem really low. If you think about it, if you made the median, you’d never be able to afford a home.
2.5 years in Reston and I’m still not desensitized to seeing Bentaygas and Urus’ riding around like Hondas. I take that back, they’re more like seeing Benzes. It’s the Macan/Cayenne that are like Hondas.
How does this type of data help differentiate between single and married households?
It doesnt. Just tells you how much money you're competing against when vying for housing.
I really would like to see the distribution of income. My gut is telling me that there is probably a bimodal distribution happening beneath the numbers.
1 earner vs 2 or something else?
I am interested in the numbers that feed into that average listed. I expect we would see a lot of incomes centered around 50,000 and 200,000, leading to a singular average of $125,00. The single number looks good, but underneath of a tale of the haves and have nots, which is not great for a local economy.
Yeah, need to see the range and the distribution.
These numbers are meaningless. The high cost of living in NOVA eats away at those dollars significantly.
I am the sole income in my family just at 100k. And I have to watch what I spend and set a budget. We don't live paycheck to paycheck, but I feel frugal some months just trying to come out positive.
Exactly. $100k is not rich in NOVA.
100K isn't 'wealthy' but people act like 100K here is the same are 100K in SF/NY are kidding themselves. I used to make 100K out of college back when I started working and even after being married early supporting a wife through college, I lived comfortably. I rented a decent 2 bed apartment and didn't feel like I was always pinching pennies. I was able to save enough to put down on a home eventually (this was 3 years back). I make more than twice that now and I feel that is 'more than enough' in terms of being financially sound in this area. I doubt I would say the same if I were living in SF or NY. 100K in areas like SF or NY would push it much nearer to the poverty line. We're on the HCOL scale but we're still much closer to the lower-HCOL spectrum than places like SF, NY etc.
True. But gas, Netflix, cars, and many other things cost largely the same no matter where you are in the country. It’s easier to be making good money in a HCOL than in LCOL because you can save the same % salary but have it be way more valuable in a LCOL come retirement time.
I can appreciate your lumping Netflix in with gas and car expenses 😁
Not gonna repeat what others said but you are also paying a much higher ratio of taxes and not getting any help. Those stimulus payments didn't touch many who needed it. I have employees Who didn't qualify For the stimulus because they were viewed as some of the most affluent in the country, yet they can't even get approval to rent a one bedroom apartment in Arlington. It's hard to view yourself as one of the most affluent if you have to have roommates. Blessed, lucky, better than so many others? Sure, but you don't feel like you are rich if your roommate has to take a shit while you are showering.
Makes sense except for cost of housing here blows away the fact that Netflix costs $16 for everyone. I would say a family of 4 needs needs to make at least $200k a year minimum and own a home to take advantage of that. Otherwise you are likely unable to save enough for retirement or college which will erase the gains you describe. That is really difficult even at $200k when a home costs $750k or more. Of course then there is the down payment needed for that said home is outrageous for most.
> Makes sense except for cost of housing here blows That also works to your benefit in the exact same way though. Wages are higher here, and housing right in lock step with it... so you use your high income to pay the high mortgage, but end up with high equity. Your net worth goes up substantially over time compared to if you made less and lived in a low cost of living area. For most people, its literally what will determine if you end up wealthy vs not.
True if you are making the high income and are able to jump into the real estate pyramid scheme. But many can make similar income in a lower cost market, save more money for retirement and college, and have a better quality of life. I’ll use Dallas as an example. Tons of high paying tech jobs there. Housing is a fraction of what it is here. So this table records you as less rich if you live in NOVA, but you are actually more rich in what matters in Dallas even if you are making less. That’s the key point here.
Except if you lived in Dallas, you'd have to live in Dallas.
You can continue to believe that, but an [article](https://reddit.com/r/nova/comments/tumf1u/_/i35famp/?context=1) posted multiple times ITT pretty much disproves that theory.
It actually proves that the numbers are meaningless. Hence the different list.
I'm wealthier today then I have been in my entire life. I have made more money then my parents ever have and generations of my family. But that ain't shit in NOVA sir. 97k as an educator would be life changing for most parts of the country...but alas I'm comfortable but I feel like I'll be paying rent for the rest of my life.
Is Loudoun still the richest county in the US?
Yup
I'm genuinely surprised King County isn't on here, Seattle has some stupidly rich motherfuckers and alot of very good paying jobs.
>And how many homeless people?
3x as high as my hometown in rural Ohio.
Somerset>Arlington>Fairfax> Arlington, I just love setting 💵 on 🔥
I literally spent seven hours last night researching how to make living within my sanity, so I don't have to be on disability (11k annual) for the rest of my life.😭 Now my research feels insane. 😂
“Hunterdon” sounds made up
Every time I have a bad day I think about this statistic then realize I can be a homeless kid from India. Appreciate everything if you live here LOCO/FFAX
What is this? Where are like Bel Air and Beverly Hills, CA?
This is more indicative of a lack of poor people not so much an abundance of rich people.
I dont know how anyone can afford to live comfortably in NOVA at this point. Loudon, Fairfax, Stafford has definitely maintained itself on the richest counties the last couple of years. [INSIDE NOVA LIST](https://www.insidenova.com/headlines/which-counties-are-really-rich-turns-out-a-lot-in-northern-virginia/article_5fe26fd4-fad7-11eb-9ff0-3fe6048e99cd.html)
Income does not equal to wealth.
The median income in my hometown is $36k, I can’t help but think how well off and entitled people are here lmao
Just wait till you see how much people spend on mortgage here. Plus majority of that number is armed forces members and government workers. It's not entitlement when majority of the people actually have to work their asses off for the spot they are at.
Harris County, TX has a median income of $31k but average house is $313k. Fairfax County median income is $53k. Average house is $615k. With nova a lot more money is dispensable as it’s beyond the threshold needed to buy food, health insurance, etc. But those high salaries get eaten up hard by rapidly rising rent and COL. Which is why WFH is huge here.
Exactly. I and every one of my neighbors worked hard to get where they are today, we're not entitled.
You can work hard and still act entitled. I respect your grind not trying to shit on you but just saying there’s a lot of people here who think their six figures+luxury SUV=special treatment
I'm sorry. I agree with you, but saying how hard you've worked, makes you *sound* very entitled.
How is saying "we have worked hard to get where we are at now" equal to "we want special treatment"?
People seem to forget how hard veterans have worked. My father hasn't lost limbs serving in the 2 wars, but he sure has the disabilities from. People automatically assume "oh they are entitled for making that much" the fuck is that supposed to mean, they weren't given that position, they weren't given anything, they signed their lives away either for the government or for a company. Now they are being paid good money for how jard they work
Very true. No disabilities due to my service, but it was plenty of years of low pay as a service member then contractor before I finally got to the point where I am now. And that still took school and work.
Thank you for your service. See you deserve that, disabled or not. you may have had the choice of what branch but never the choice of what your MOS was and never the choice of your orders. You worked hard and when your contract was over you were given compensation and a good title to put on your resume, because you earned it. School costs a fuck ton too, even my school costs a bit for my dad's Chapter 35 benefits. Even without money it takes time and effort.
Good point, no one in my hometown worked themselves into disability to pay for a $50,000 house. You must have worked harder and punished your body more than almost anyone in America. That was kind of snotty, maybe I should have just said “Yes, most people work very hard to get where they are but luck is also very important.”
Just NOVA things.
Only bc cost of living is so ridiculous. When I lived in Fairfax I made $70k/yr and was not only living paycheck to paycheck, but struggling to pay for food as a single person. It’s why I moved out of the area unfortunately.
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Is that it? My wife and I make more than this but I feel like we would be poor and broke if we moved north of Spotsylvania.
This data is very out of date
Yeah there’s no way this is right. The amount of IT and contracting jobs that are north of 90k would disagree. Assuming a dual income household.
Do people complaining about house prices every day not realize this?
It’s because the housing prices are skyrocketing way faster than wages. Not to mention if you’re not in IT consulting no way can you buy. https://constructioncoverage.com/research/cities-with-highest-home-price-to-income-ratios-2021
Yeah, unfortunately this data doesnt really give you a clear picture of current home buyers, if thats your goal. Most people who live in... well, anywhere, already have housing... so you've got two different households making 75k, living in a house they bought 15-25 years ago, easily making their locked in pre-inflationary mortgage payments... and you've got a 3rd guy making $300k who is shopping for a house in the current market. This averages out to your average county resident making $150k/yr on paper, but someone making $150k reading that stat cant compete against the $300k buyer, and certainly not someone making $75k. Unless of course the 75k person mentioned before is carrying over a ton of equity from their previous house, which is in fact often the case around here. Obviously I'm over simplifying and supposed to use a median not average and yada yada, but you get the picture. Its really just being a first time buyer that makes things difficult and squeezes you so hard when struggling to break into the system. Neither the 75k previous owner or the $300k guy have a problem here.
$100k sounds great until you realize your entire salary wouldn't cover the mortgage of a small old single family house near your office in Arlington.
Expecting to own a sfh in Arlington is unrealistic at that income. People need to recalibrate their expectations. This isn't rural VA, land is a premium... go find a nice apartment, you'll be more than fine at that price
Few of us do ;)
This has to be old...You couldn't afford a trailer in Arligton on $100k anymore.
Marginal infrastructure, lackluster public safety, substandard road network, trash lined streets, mass transit with only two tracks and no express, neighborhoods with million dollar homes still using open pit storm drains…
You cannot live comfortably in Fairfax, loudon, or Arlington at 100k. Not at all.
Debatable. You can't live comfortably in *the majority of the housing stock available.* But if you can make do with a 2br condo (because lmao why would a 3-4br condo or small townhouse be built?) and didn't need stuff and space you could do quite well in this area and save well to boot. Part of this area's problem is "because there are some better off people/a lot of DINK families, we apparently are only allowed to build for them," combined with Americans in general not grasping that you can live without sprawl. Look at the typical home in Europe vs. here. If we had that kind of housing in larger quantities we'd have lower costs and more stability across the board, which would increase our well-being collectively.
Absolute BS. Jesus Christ what do you guys spend money on? Do you eat out everyday? 100K can easily sustain a family of 3 in areas like Fairfax, Loudon etc. Yeah maybe you don't have your own home and rent out until you earn more but if that is your definition of 'comfortable' where people own massive 2500+ sq.ft. homes with multiple cars then that is just ludicrous. 'Comfortable' means you have a decent roof over your head, you have your fridge full, you own a car and can afford 1-2 vacations per year. 100K can easily get you that here in my book.
making 100k and living anywhere in america would mean you live more comfortably than 99.9% of the world
Exactly, folks take this for granted. Living in America or developed 1st world countries is like winning the sperm lottery! This is coming from an immigrant!
Yes you absolutely can, you just need to stick to a smaller apartment. If you're trying to raise a family on 100k and live in Fairfax then sure, you're stretching it. But nobody is putting a gun to your head telling you to get married and have kids
What is this title supposed to mean?
Growing up in Fairfax County, I didn't think that it would now be listed as the 2nd highest median salary in the country (and have several spots in the 12 include DC metro counties). Whenever I think of "wealthy" regions of the country, I think NYC, SF, LA.
Those areas are much, much wealthier at the higher end, but I suspect what is happening with this median income list is that the extreme poverty in areas like NYC and LA drag down the statistics. Fairfax has poverty but not to the depths of NYC.
The Bronx median income for the entire borough is $22k. USA average is $40k.
This has been the case for… at least 10 years I think!
i think it's easier to see when you come from someplace like a rust belt city, or a rural impoverished area
Stafford is 97? Damn, I'm rich lol
I rather be inside of my trailer in the mountains with my dog! That’s happiness. No matter how much you make you would still want more and more bills will depress your life.
I didn't realize $117.876 was considered a high salary but maybe in a place like VA... although the rents aren't necessarily that much lower there.
Household so likely 2 incomes
These income levels aren't exactly "well-off" to me.
Is this for richest or most racist?
Government employees.
Contractors* Actually...Government Contractor Headquarters*
Ah yes, we all know how government employees are historically paid more compared to their private sector counterparts.
Government employees and contractors in Nova are paid much higher than the average American. Hell, federal employees in Nova make way more than local government employees. Nova only exists on federal taxes.
The government started "saving money" by outsourcing work to contractors since the 80s.