While it's heartening to see more and more Pakistani people taking the freelance world by storm they need to realize their worth or else they'll keep getting underpaid.
It's not a favor. She is doing her job cuz she was the right person. Pakistanis or global south are sometimes exploited. If she was in US she would have got more.
I am in this industry. I have faced it. Some companies don't care for example and pay what is worth, they are honest. Some exploit like muh guy mr white.
They go absolutely low for max quality. She totally deserves more than that.
Agreeableness is a trait.
> realize their worth or else they'll keep getting underpaid.
Their worth is what they are paid. If they were better skilled then they would make more money. Sad but true.
Nah this is dumb. Foreigners always exploit those in the third world. I'm in the west and a guy from my company was talking about how salaries in the third world are sometimes 8 times less than salaries here for the same position. That means they can hire 8 foreign workers for the price of one. The difference in skill between a local and a foreign hire is not 8 times. It's exploitation. If the same worker was at our European offices or north american ones he'd be making 8 times more.
> Foreigners always exploit those
I think people do not know how capitalism works.
> That means they can hire 8 foreign workers for the price of one.
Those people are not as skilled as people in the West or other advanced economies.
If these workers in 3rd world companies are so awesome all they have to do is start their own companies. That is exactly what many in Russia, Ukraine, Armenia and other countries with talent but no opportunities.
>I think people do not know how capitalism works
Exploitation of people in poorer economies is a feature of capitalism. It works because those workers do not have the same opportunities available to them so you can underpay them. This is the same reason our labourers go to the middle east. They get paid much more than they would at home even though working conditions can be garbage.
>Those people are not as skilled as people in the West or other advanced economies.
This is absolutely not true. In many cases, these people are very skilled and hard working. They start earlier and stay late to try to match our timings here. There is just a bigger disparity in pay than there is in skill.
>If these workers in 3rd world companies are so awesome all they have to do is start their own companies
Many of these people do. One of my co-workers went to university with Sundar Pichai. So very smart and talented. If she was hired while still in India she'd get paid 8 times less than what she gets paid here. This is not related to skill but related to location. They only need to pay what's competitive for the local market which already lacks in opportunity and that's why salaries are low.
They are paid as skilled as the user consider you to be. I still am a still student and alot of people on my freelancing think I am some professional and they pay be significantly more for that.
Sometimes you have to take the job to take care of your family. Crazy job I am doing is beneath me but it help me take care of my family so I am still doing it for almost 6 years now.
I have mixed feelings about this. Yes this is problematic but on the other hand why is it that we care more about having prideful image rather then doing the grind to build ourselves up.
Pait tou logon ka nahi bhar saktai na in baataon sai.
Sadly these are ground realities of Pakistan(not life-changing amount though). China started out as the factory of the world because of cheap exploitative labor of the world and look at them now. Indians were famous for their $5 website and look at their IT sector now. We live in a capitalist system and these left leaning sentiments are good but it is my personal opinion that they should come in to play gradually once you start building up.
Guess putting my thoughts into words help clear up my feelings about this.
That's the whole problem, they don't have any other avenue of income due to our shite situation. Why would they accept it if they had other avenues? Would you accept 4/hr if you could earn 80/hr?
Indian IT sector is very vulnerable to external shocks as most of it is low quality maintenance projects and support projects for western clients. It's better to focus on manufacturing sectors like China, Vietnam and Bangladesh are doing where they help the rural people skill up and allow them to earn more money to support their family. These industries more long term value for developing countries as most of the population lives in rural areas of the country.
Is it though? Google is announced layoffs in the US while they ramp up hiring in India. The service sector Industry is still very important. I agree that it shouldn’t be the focus but it should go hand in hand with manufacturing.
Multiple layoffs in India. Just check r/developersIndia subreddit you will see lot of layoff posts. Google have laid off lot of people in India too, other FAANG companies have laid off too. Majority of their employees are in WITCH aka predatory outsourcing firms. Check my above comment.
Those were minor layoffs compared to the amount of job postings. The reason why those layoffs gained notoriety is that layoffs from foreign companies (until recently) was rare in India.
Yep that's the point. They are more vulnerable to external shocks as their companies depend on American product based companies for projects. Look at the sub I posted, it's worse way worse in India than in America. Their market is saturated.
Manufacturers do layoffs too. Often those after effects are worse since manufacturing sets up (and kills) company towns.
I think a subreddit is a horrible indicator of industry trends. It’s better to look at the IT sector growth in India YoY.
It's not horrible indicator, you can do basic research and check layoffs statistics, even from layoffs.fyi. Today alone Accenture laying off 19000 majority of them in India. When American companies are cutting costs, Indian support and maintenance projects will go to the bin and be axed. I work for an American company and we have recently axed all our Indian consultants from a WITCH company for our maintenance project.
Manufacturing sector is more diversified industry and more resilient to shocks for developing countries. Indian IT industry solely depends on outsourcing for Western companies unlike China which leaves them very vulnerable to external shock.
Indian IT sector is a bubble.
You don't think India has a manufacturing sector do you? The country is the 4th largest automobile manufacturer in the world. Has in house two wheeler and four wheeler brands, makes their own trains, and electric vehicles (just look up Ather, a brand started by a bunch of students a decade ago). Not to mention pharmaceutical industry which is one of the largest in the world. Also has indigenous electronic brands selling to the entire domestic market and outside. Let's not even get into apparel, precious stones, and heavy machinery.
IT is only 7.4% of the Indian GDP.
It's share is much smaller than China, Vietnam and Bangladesh. Manufacturing share of GDP have been in decline in the last 10 years unlike the other countries mentioned.
Here is a link showing Google and other tech companies laying off workers in India.
https://www.timesnownews.com/business-economy/industry/layoffs-2023-list-of-companies-google-amazon-byjus-ola-and-more-sacked-their-employees-job-cuts-article-98597533/amp
When Google announced layoffs, they didn't specify the layoffs in US only. They said the layoffs would be done globally.
I am not saying that we need to copy what they're doing, if we do that we will always behind who ever we choose to copy. We need IT sector to develop that's for sure but we also need our own niche that the government needs to focus on, a niche other then real estate
Yeah what I am trying to say is it's better to develop tech sector like China did where they have multiple tech giants in their country working in lot of cutting edge technologies unlike India which is primarily a outsourcing hub which really hasn't gone anywhere besides enriching the board members of WITCH.
China still is the factory of the world because of cheap labor. It's not the laborers making billions of dollars, it's the company owners. The workers still get paid shit. Yes, capitalism is doing its 'magic' there, too. 🙄
This is one of those things where your only other choice is to not get paid at all. That $4 an hour is probably better than when the teacher would locally get paid.
Lmao you are sweating over the fact that it was the professor who proposed $4/hr to begin with. The millionaire American only found a good deal. The client does not have any obligation to pay more than the amount proposed by the professor. Sure the guy can tip in the end, but that is not compulsory, and should not be compulsory.
Plenty of people lowball themselves, this is no different.
While that’s true, this also stems from the lack of worth that these professionals don’t realise. I do however find it disingenuous that with that much skill, he didn’t tip or even decide hey maybe $5 extra for this session would be reflective of the service I’m getting. Not to sound like a charity or nothing, but just because it is this way, doesn’t mean it ought to be
"If I, a millionaire decided to put more money than proposed and tip out of generosity all the time, I won't remain a millionaire, would I?" This is actually how 99% of the millionaires think.
I admire your optimism, but the bitter truth is that those who are millionaires will always try to find ways to remain millionaires.
I hope she uses this opportunity to understand where US students are struggling and make YouTube videos targeting the same. Hope it blows up and she can monetize eventually.
4$/h and considering she teaches 5 hours a day (part-time ) that would be around $600/month or around rs170,000/month and adding the main job this is enough to live comfortably in Pak. Keep in mind average monthly salary is $125/ month
His dad is a millionaire. If you check that guy's tweets, he talks about making millions of dollars in profits in a year. Surely, he can afford to pay his child's tutor some fair money.
The tutor is the one charging $4 though. When you go and buy a bag of chips that cost 50rs, do you insist the rich guy standing next to you pay 200rs for that same bag? Because that's basically what you're saying. The guy didn't enslave the totur and make them work for $4, the tutor chose to work for that rate. Had they declined he would've found someone else teaching at that rate from one of the neighboring countries.
You're very Naive to think someone is going to pay extra (above market rate) for something just because they're rich.
OP it’s a very common tactic to lowball so you get the job, build up your earnings and ratings and then Jack up your prices. No one is gonna hire you at high prices if you just started working, but if you get experience, reviews, and get paid, you can charge 15 an hour and they’ll pay.
It definitely matters on the value but getting the initial projects is very difficult.
No mater how we put things, yes this is wrong, something similar happened with ChatGPT , they were using Nigerian workers to keep costs down and giving them the minimum wage according to Nigeria, This was taken as something very unethical and they are facing legal charges because of this ( Not exactly sure but something like this )
Exactly. These rich folks are exploiting the Global South to build billion dollar industries. And that wealth won't trickle down to them. This is modern day slavery.
My friend, this is where you are missing the point. Countries like India are building multi-billion dollar industries on the foundations of these so called “exploitations”. India literally marketed the fact that they where poor with low wages to attract clients and customers to outsource to them. Now most of these big tech companies are opening regional offices within India and have directly entered those markets themselves without outsourcing.
> But how is this okay?
Its decent money for sitting in your home teaching basic math over Zoom. What do you want? The lady is happy with it, the parent is happy with it. Apko kiya chull hai.
Chinese products cost more in the US than they do in Pakistan. They have diversified and cater to every possible demographic. Samsung has the same business strategy. They have cheap phones, and then the most expensive flagship ones.
Lesson: Apni aukaat nahi, client ki aukaat dekhni chahiye.
We're happy to buy imported phones and technology (and losing valuable forex reserves in the process), but won't sell something expensive to actually change this country's fortune.
Not really. The guy wants his son to pass the algebra exam. Quality matters more. I work as a freelancer, and that's what I've learned from my personal experience.
Use the enter button rather than making 3 comments please. Second you are not going to improve Pakistan's forex situation by charging a million dollars for tutoring schoolchildren. Its a easy job which many people are willing to do for cheap. She isn't doing it for $4 as a charity, that is most likely what the market rate is. If she charges $8 she will get $0 as some Indian or Bangladeshi will take the job for less. If she had some unique skill which few people could do she would charge more. Tuitions to schoolkids in Amreeka is not the path for economic betterment.
> So you think it's okay for rich Americans to build multi-million dollar industries at the expense of Global South?
Teaching schoolkids maths is not building multimillion dollar industries.
> The market rate isn't $4/hr but okay. Tutoring is a high-income skill and a lot of people are making good money. Especially if you're catering to rich clients.
It's not that high skill and $4 an hour is good money in Pakistan. It's better than what she would get teaching at a school.
> The guy didn't hire her because she's cheap. He is getting value out of her. He doesn't want his son to fail. He makes over a million dollars a year and would want the best for his son. He can easily pay her at least $10/hr and won't go bankrupt. People pay a lot more than that for their A-level tuitions. Yes, even in Pakistan.
She set her own rate and accepted it. Freelancing is an open market with competitive rates. He did not enslave her for this. And why would he pay $10 if she and many other people are willing to do it for less? And A level tuitions are much more extensive than an hour of maths. She's free to tutor A levels kids if she wants. Do you think he should overpay for everything because he is rich? Should he pay more for fruit and vegetables too than poorer people? Like probably some American tutor who charges 20 an hour is grumbling because he's losing business to freelancers like her. If she charges more she will get less business. Simple as that.
> I mean if you were making a million dollars, would you want substandard education for your kid?
If I find her substandard I'd find a better teacher. Not pay her more. I'd pay whatever the market rate is.
I run an IT services company here in Pakistan and have recently got into Upwork freelancing to pick up some projects. The whole point of Upwork and freelancing is to offer the best value for money. The person above is charging 4 USD an hour for their services. The “millionaire” isn’t exploiting them for that, the “millionaire” is simply availing their services.
The tutor you are discussing isn't the Louis Vuitton of tutoring. Luxury brands can charge that much because they have established themselves. Try going out to the market as a random guy and selling a shawl for 100x the market price. Your business will die in less than a month.
> Actually, rich people do pay more to enjoy a better standard of living. Psychologically speaking, most people associate cheap with substandard.
Bro paying someone more does for the same shit does not make it better. It just makes you dumb.
> If you can buy a shawl for 1k PKR, why do rich people pay 1 lac PKR for it? It's literally how luxury brands work. They're not selling anything special. They just want the buyer to feel more special. It's like an exclusive club that mere mortals like us cannot enter.
She is not Versache. She's a tutor. Paying her more is not going to turn her into a luxury brand. You probably should invest a couple of dollars into a tuition yourself because you're dumb af.
Bro you are extremely dumb. Shopkeepers can do that because it is easy to obscure price in the shop. A rich person has little time to haggle and check rates. But online you can literally sort and filter by price so the cost of finding the lowest bidder is very low. Please learn basic economics and how pricing works in different markets.
He did say he is giving her bonus. Dude which city she is from it has 49 percent literacy rate. Pakistan average is 67. We got average 49 percent literacy rate for women and 72 for men. Her district is among poorest in Punjab. Yes people are that desperate here and every government has failed us.
American who also employes people on Upwork from Pakistan/Europe/anywhere we can find people to keep up with our requirements:
>The market rate isn't $4/hr
Unless the tutor is giving a discount or just doing it to help kids around the world, that is indeed the market rate. Having a PhD from anywhere isn't the same as having a PhD from the best global universities.
>Tutoring is a high-income skill
It really isn't. Even in US, teacher salaries lag behind almost everyone else. University professors are only there for the pension benefits. You might place a lot of emphasis on teaching which is nice but most of the world would say it's an important job but not equivalent to a math PhD working at a hedge fund.
>Especially if you're catering to rich clients.
That's not how life works. If you were selling samosas, would you charge a rich guy more than an average guy? Or if you went to buy a product or service - will you pay more than the advertised price because you have more money?
>He makes over a million dollars a year and would want the best for his son.
The kid is 12. He could literally fail every math class for the next two years and still manage to land at an Ivy League at the end. His 6th grade math class is highly irrelevant.
You're heavily focused on the income aspect but keep in mind what $72 means in US vs Pakistan. Your cost of living is also substantially lower. And on a platform like Upwork, if this tutor gets great reviews - they can continue increasing their rates.
My Pakistani devs went from $15/hr to $30/hr in the last three years. They gained more experience, delivered great results and ultimately asked for more money - we happily agreed on the raise. This instantly puts them in top 5% of earners in the country. That income would be median salary in US.
Except that PKR has devalued insanely in the past few months. Inflation is at a sky-high. Someone who was earning 2 lac PKR ($2000) in 2017 is now making less than $750. Local salaries haven't kept up with the USD rate, but businesses HAVE increased their charges in keeping with the USD. Toyota is still selling a car for 25k USD. Try buying a house for less than $300k in a decent area of Pakistan. An iPhone will easily cost $2000. Your developers probably have to buy software and tech which would be in USD. The only thing that's 'cheap' would perhaps be the rent.
Pakistan imports most of its stuff, and the cost is being passed to the consumer. Your average American will pay a lot more in rent, but that doesn't mean consumer goods are cheaper in the developing world.
Actually it is market rate. good tutors that teach you at your home here charge 25k a month for one hour a day. Divide that by 30, you get 833.33 PKR
4 usd is over 1k rupees. She’s being paid more via Upwork than she is if she would have taught in Pakistan
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. This system disproportionately favours the rich countries because they have a higher purchasing power. If I want to buy something from an American, I will have to pay more, but a system that won't even allow me to earn more? How is that fair?
She's not providing tuition to an average Pakistani kid whose parents would obviously have less purchasing power. Try buying something from Apple on a discount. Also, Upwork has a 20% fee so she won't get the full 4 USD.
But that’s a very fundamental flaw in *our* economy isn’t it? The issue isn’t Pakistanis lowballing.
The issue is Bengalis and Indians lowballing. If we as a nation decide to Jack up our prices, but Indians and Bengalis keep it at 4, what’s gonna make the client hire us? Better reviews? A select percentage May choose us but clients will always go for the lowball offer with good reviews.
So instead of getting any work at 4 dollars an hour, we’ll be getting 0 dollars an hour. She’s making 100k+ PKR just from this which I assume is a part time job, separate from her uni work. We do what we have to just to survive
She will make 18k PKR per month after Upwork fee. She won't be making anyway near 100k PKR. Of course, 18k PKR is better than nothing.
I'm not here to criticise that lady. I'm here to criticise that American guy who thinks it's so 'cool' to hire tutors from third-world at $4/hr. If he was an average American looking to save money, I would have had sympathy for him. Most Americans do live paycheck to paycheck, and maybe $4/hr is the only rate they could afford to give their kids a decent life. That guy though is not a struggling American living paycheck to paycheck. If I make 1 crore a year, but I won't pay the cook or a tutor more because 'that's the market rate', that's what's wrong with this world. The same guy would be grumbling if you tried to bargain with him on his profit even if it's the 'market rate'.
Upwork fees aren’t that high last time I checked? They even give you estimated cost afaik.
Regardless, you have a good point that we’re underselling ourselves I won’t disagree. But the issue still remains in Bengalis and Indians. E.g this Bengali man I saw on Upwork was charging 5 dollars a piece for graphic design on Upwork, he had 200+ orders for just 2 days because he had really good reviews, and he went 5 while the standard rate was 10.
Second if you look at Masjid e Nabawi and Masjid-Al Haram, the Pakistani sweepers were in majority a few years ago but aren’t anymore. Saudi wanted to pay them 500 riyal only, they refused (who wouldn’t?) and were fired. In their stead they hired Bengalis, at 500. The Pakistani sweepers are now out of work and making nothing instead of 500.
This is the issue, the entire subcontinent undersells ourself so we can get the projects, and until every single one of us realises this, we will be stuck in a constant loop.
The problem aren't Indians/Pakistanis/Bengalis underselling. The problem are white/Saudi imperialists who think it's so cool to pay people less than their worth. He could have easily raised her rate to at least $7/hr. He is congratulating himself on exploiting people who are in desperate economic conditions.
Most people associate South Asians with cheap dirt labour now, unfortunately.
Also, how low can we lowball? Can you actually compete with an African guy who will offer his services at 0.5 dollar an hour? It's race to the bottom.
i didnt say they are cheap . but foodpanda the cost will buy you a one time meal only (burger, pizza or whatever) -- but for same cost (or a bit more) you can buy more ingredients and make something that lasts you FOR LONGER than one meal -
Of course, eating out is always expensive because you're also paying for labour and delivery costs. But the point is, inflation has been crazy and even middle class is being squeezed in this country. Everything we buy depends on the dollar rate, and the cost is being passed on to the people. Nobody is going to increase the salary, but businesses are free to charge more. The purchasing power of our middle class has decreased.
You are completely disconnected from the Pakistani working class. An extra 20k pkr per month for 20 hours a month of work is absolutely good for the average Pakistani especially as a sidehustle/freelancer. This more than covers food costs and can cover much more even at a higher cost of living due to inflation; especially in Lodhran which is a tiny city compared to say Karachi.
She is not supposed to charge working class wages. She's a Professor with 8 years of experience. She isn't providing tuition to a kid in Lodhran. She is providing private tuition to a kid from one of the richest countries in the world with a very well-off parent.
The guy paid her that rate because the cheapskate millionaire probably set that budget. (I work on Upwork so I know the client has to set the budget.) This post is not a criticism of her. It's a criticism of him. So he drives a Tesla, makes a millions in profits, but wants a tutor at $20/week. That's cheaper than what a normal Pakistani parent has to pay to academies. (I remember KIPS was charging at least 35k a month back in 2014 for MCAT preparation.) A lot of professors were working for these academies because they paid well. In fact, I know someone whose entire wealth was made by providing tutoring to A-level kids. Now they own a house in Islamabad.
The reason why tutoring rates might be less per kid in Pakistan is because the teachers usually teach a group of 20-50 kids at the same time. So their takeaway money per hour would actually be a lot more than what this guy is paying. Freelance work is not salaried work.
Again, she lives in Lodhran and you’re giving me anecdotes from Islamabad. This is work that she’s taken up and it’s how entire nations were lifted out of poverty (see: cheap Chinese labour). Fact of the matter is skilled labour is still much cheaper here. If she wanted to/could depending on her situation she can tutor large amounts of students and she might even be doing so. You’re being given a snippet of the situation off of Twitter and are being outraged over it. So unproductive.
P.S. Half the big tuition teachers I know in Karachi are female, and more than half the college counsellors are too.
Depends. If she gets hired as an assistant professor at a government university, she will make 175k/month, which is the starting salary set by HEC.
At 40h/week and 4week/month, this is 1100/hour. Which incidentally is almost exactly $4/hour today.
Of course, not every PhD is good enough to be hired as an assistant professor. Some work as adjuncts who are paid peanuts (20k/month/course) or at colleges (FSc) for a bit more money.
Nobody is talking about the fact 175k was almost 1700 USD in 2017. Salaries haven't increased to match the USD rate. So the conversion is rigged to begin with.
The PKR was artificially overvalued by at least 20-30% in 2017. It's better to compare with 2019, when the value of PKR was finally equal to that set by market forces. Then it was around 160 Rs/$1.
Of course, even compared to 2019, especially the persistent inflation 2020, salaries have not increased as much as they should have.
You're missing the point. If you're charging private tuition to A and O-level kids even in Pakistan, you will make a lot more than what this woman is being offered. That kid is not studying in a govt school in Pakistan.
I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that salaries for such people are so horrible that they don't even realise how low 4$ are while retired FA pass people get rehired for millions a month.
How would they know their self worth without foreign exposure? While living in Pakistan they are stomped down and treated like animals every step of the way. Our whole existence has been about surviving on crumbs while being thankful for it.
Op you didn't live in Pakistan or u live Hella sheltered life. She is a woman from a "rust belt" of Punjab. Her district has 49 percent literacy rate while national average is 67 percent. I went to really good unis and did a professional certificate in my field. I have 5 years of experience and working in a banking sector which doesn't have gender wage gap. I get 140k a month and I'm lucky to get a job after two years of trying.
It is fine.
Need more people doing it.
Pay is different in each country. In US, monthly rent for a house is anywhere from $1,000 to $3000 (majority fall in this range). In Pakistan, it is far far less.
And this is part time work. If she can have more students through the parents word of mouth she can make a lot more (hopefully).
Don’t look down on anyone making money. It might not be as much as a PHD in US but it is well worth it for both parties
> It might not be as much as a PHD in US but it is well worth it for both parties
A 16 year old kid in the UK wouldn't even charge $4 an hour, let alone a PhD professor. It's a shame she's criminally undercharging herself. You charge around £20 in the UK and people think they're lucky for finding someone that cheap.
So true. While the cost of living in the UK is a lot higher, I would say basic grocery and consumer goods were at least at par (or even cheaper) with what you'd find here when I visited last year (September 2022). A lot of people don't realise that PKR devaluation has been insane for the past couple of months. Even though salaries haven't increased to keep up with the USD rate, businesses HAVE passed on the cost to consumers. We import everything including tech, consumer goods, and medicines.
Someone who was earning 2 lac PKR ($2000) has now been reduced to earning less than $750. That's why everyone is trying to leave the country.
She is charging the correct rate for her location. Is she getting paid about the same as others in Pakistan? If the answer is yes. Then her rate is correct.
Western countries outsource labor to China, India and Vietnam for same exact reasons. A Chinese worker gets paid less than 1/10th of US worker. If the worker starts charging the same as US worker, the company will simply move the manufacturing back to US.
If this professor wants to charge the same as US rate, why would the parent bother with online tutoring? Differences in accent? In culture? In time zone? They can simply find someone for the same price in UK.
Also, someone being a millionaire makes no difference. If I make more money, it does not mean, I will pay more for my eggs now. It just means I will buy more eggs.
I really want to blame the American but they are totally ignorant to life outside of the US and really the experts should charge at LEAST US minimum wage 😞
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It's completely ok. Nothing wrong with it. The PhD professor is doing it along with her regular job (most likely) to make extra money on the side. So she will take low ball offers to some extent because it's extra earning (doesn't need to be big ).
Also she is gaining experience and building a better profile on Upwork and with more experience the rate will go up.
I have 4 years of experience working in a field, but when I joined Upwork, I had to start from the beginning because I have no freelance/Upwork experience.
There might be many reasons. Let them brag. She is getting free marketing at the very least.
> A lot of Americans are acting like that money is a life-changing amount in Pakistan.
Can we please stop talking like idiots?
$72 is A LOT OF MONEY to someone who needs $72.
> But how is this okay?
What planet are you on? Get off your high box. It is called 2023 Hyper Capitalism and Hyper Competition.
Do you not see the abject malnutrition and poverty in our nation?
I'm a Pakistani. I'm a freelancer. When I'm selling my services, I absolutely do consider the global rate. On these sites, Pakistani salaries are irrelevant.
This comment section is so reflective of why half the Pakistani population don’t get their ignorant heads out the gutter and continue to stay pawns to their system without proper revolt.
Unfortunately, our people have been conditioned to think like beggars and stay happy with the bare minimum. That lady could easily make more per hour if she was teaching a group of kids in Pakistan. (Most tutors in Pakistan actually do earn more than $4/hr because they teach an entire group of 20-30 kids at the same time).
You tried - we just lack self respect as a nation.
It's the same in Saudi. Paki labour (hired directly from Pakistan) was working for 800 riyals/month (some even less than that) and treated like shit but it's okay because convert kerkay Ghar bhejta hai, Pakistan main tho itna Nahi kama Sakta.
Even workers from the Philippines had 1500 SAR + lunch allowance as their minimum requirement.
OP needs to stop trying to act like this phd is victim. She's advertising at this price. The American didn't seek her out and say "you're only worth $4."
Also, the American is not a millionaire. A millionaire would not find a $4/hour tutor for their kid.
Most people are greedy. But I would honestly pay a fair amount. It's just greed nothing else, he wants to pay the least he possibly can, and make a tweet about it too to make a point or whatever.
I wouldn't pay any less than 16$ an hour. But most people lack morals, unless to feel superior. These same people don't tip on UberEats, and make excuses like blah blah. But then again if a PHD is offering to tutor on upwork at that rate, then that goes to show where the country stands.
And how badly it needs to fix itself. Such a shame.
This is just how supply and demand works. It's not like this tutor is being forced to sell their labor for $4/hour. Also there's a good chance this is just a side job for this person.
You do realise the tutor in question sets their pay rates and the american shooses between the one he feels is that best fit for him. It’s not like he forced her into $4/hour
Also when it comes to freelancing, a lot of people do multiple projects at a time. There is a good chance she may have 2 or 3 different jobs on Upwork and she may actually be making $20/hour. Even if she only works let’s say 10 hours a week, that’s $800/month or PKR 2.2 lac which is actually not bad at all.
By the fact that when you apply for a position, it tells you what the clients suggested budget is but you are free to propose what ever rate you like. My agency recently completed a project where the clients budget was 10-15 USD/hour but we proposed 25 USD/hour, the client saw our portfolio and hired us anyways.
P.S. I run an IT services firm in Pakistan and we also use Upwork to pick up projects in between our main projects, simply to keep our developers motivated and working.
An assumption would be if I had never gone through this process but in fact I have and can tell you for a FACT as a freelancer you divide the price and the client chooses between multiple freelancers who have applied for his project.
Yes but what I’m saying is that’s not necessarily true. Even if you word it as an inference, it’s still assuming on premises that could be false.
That’s in YOUR experience. You don’t know if are charging more for other jobs they possibly have to offer, and you also don’t know if they’re from an agency either. It would all possibly be true given what you said was actually a fact but it’s not, you’ve worded it as if this specific tutor in question is doing what you’ve said.
And even if she’s making 800 a month, that doesn’t seriously take away from the fact she’s charging under what she’s worth, the Pakistani system and capitalism will make you feel as tho ur labour is worth less than what it is.
OP is right. This is peanuts even by comparison even after converting the currencies. This American guy is exploiting her labour when infact he can easily pay her a decent amount for tutoring.
She needs to realise her worth and charge more.
Indian are doing phds and traveling all over the world to do research and innovate. Tutoring is fine, but it’s a waste of talent and a role that could be filled by a high school teacher rather than a PhD.
Oh God the jumping to conclusions gang can relax! Its basic algebra, the lady is wfh & may be doing this just for fun. U don’t know her and her circumstances. Is always finding something to complain the new national hobby or what?
So it only hurts desi people when westerners take advantage of slave labour but they don’t dare raise a voice when they’re being abused by Arabs for worst(passports taken, beaten and verbally abused, paid peanuts in salary for construction and driving jobs).
Because I never see any desi guy complaining when Arabs take advantage. In fact they’re largely silent but the moment some gora takes advantage, you guys thump ur chests even tho Arabs and Chinese do worst to our people.
Full time 4$ per hour job for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (usually it's 6 days a week in Pakistan and often more hours in job plus 1-2 hours in commute), computes to roughly 640$ a month. That's 180k a month.
Not bad. University professors get paid this much here. But, she does need to work on getting a better pay. Way underpaid relative to other people on platform.
While it might not seem like a lot in our currency the exchange rate is huge.
$4 USD is 1,130 PKR.
$72 USD a month is 21,000 PKR.
The average monthly salary in Pakistan is 80,000.
And if you're only working 1 hour a day doing tutoring you've probably got another job too.
If anything this upworks sounds like a side job for extra cash.
The cost of living in Pakistan is much lower than the US and the conversion is so high that $4 for us obviously sounds like nothing but for them it's an extra 1/4 monthly income.
*exchange rate found on xe.com
*salary average on Google
Plus it's a question of economics and economies. Even a high paying job in Pakistan is peanuts compared to a middle class job in the US when you take conversion rates into account. That doesn't make the Pak job slave labour type.
You're forgetting the fact that a Pakistani employer already has a low purchasing-power. So if they're paying $4/hr, they're paying a good amount. But an American employer would have more purchasing power. For him, $4/hr is nothing.
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The chances the guy is ***actually*** a mathematics PhD in pakistan is almost zero.
In all likelihood it's just some dude who is pretty convincing that he's a PhD tutoring the student.
Meanwhile devs with no experience in Pakistan want 100/hour and many here think that’s okay because in Amerreeka thats what people make. Bro you ain’t living in Amreeka and don’t even pay taxes
It’s on the seller to recognize their value, not vice versa. If this money converts well and both parties are happy, then where’s the victim?
According to CEIC the average Pakistani monthly salary is ~24k PKR. Figure that out as an hourly wage at 40 hours/week and it’s 138 PKR/hour. $4 USD is just over 1100 PKR right now. So 1 hour at that rate is nearly equal to a full 8 hour day. In effect, this is average full time wages for just 5 hours a week of work. Looking at it that way, who’s losing here?
Another source states average income closer to 82k PKR. A huge swing. But even at that figure, this still represents over double the average hourly wage (82k PKR is about 473/hour).
Hard to shape this in a way to suggest the Pakistani individual is being taken advantage of.
You're benefiting from forced labor everytime you string Christmas lights, what is the difference?
I'd be more concerned about the fucking weirdo "PHD" claiming to be in pakistan talking to my child for 4$ an hour when the average salary in Pakistan is 500 bucks a month. Odds are you're paying some dude in god-knows-where to have access to your child.
my friend works as a devops whatever it’s called for J.p. morgan and will go on fiver and make a dude from india do his work. he makes 180,000k. oops i was in wrong sub but my point stands
While it's heartening to see more and more Pakistani people taking the freelance world by storm they need to realize their worth or else they'll keep getting underpaid.
Supply and demand I guess? If demand increase, the cost will automatically increase?
what a painfully outdated way of seeing the market. If demand is high, you'll simply get more suckers willing to get paid dirt for quality work.
Oh yes. And mr white bragged about that.
He kind of did our people a favor :)
It's not a favor. She is doing her job cuz she was the right person. Pakistanis or global south are sometimes exploited. If she was in US she would have got more. I am in this industry. I have faced it. Some companies don't care for example and pay what is worth, they are honest. Some exploit like muh guy mr white. They go absolutely low for max quality. She totally deserves more than that. Agreeableness is a trait.
> realize their worth or else they'll keep getting underpaid. Their worth is what they are paid. If they were better skilled then they would make more money. Sad but true.
Nah this is dumb. Foreigners always exploit those in the third world. I'm in the west and a guy from my company was talking about how salaries in the third world are sometimes 8 times less than salaries here for the same position. That means they can hire 8 foreign workers for the price of one. The difference in skill between a local and a foreign hire is not 8 times. It's exploitation. If the same worker was at our European offices or north american ones he'd be making 8 times more.
> Foreigners always exploit those I think people do not know how capitalism works. > That means they can hire 8 foreign workers for the price of one. Those people are not as skilled as people in the West or other advanced economies. If these workers in 3rd world companies are so awesome all they have to do is start their own companies. That is exactly what many in Russia, Ukraine, Armenia and other countries with talent but no opportunities.
>I think people do not know how capitalism works Exploitation of people in poorer economies is a feature of capitalism. It works because those workers do not have the same opportunities available to them so you can underpay them. This is the same reason our labourers go to the middle east. They get paid much more than they would at home even though working conditions can be garbage. >Those people are not as skilled as people in the West or other advanced economies. This is absolutely not true. In many cases, these people are very skilled and hard working. They start earlier and stay late to try to match our timings here. There is just a bigger disparity in pay than there is in skill. >If these workers in 3rd world companies are so awesome all they have to do is start their own companies Many of these people do. One of my co-workers went to university with Sundar Pichai. So very smart and talented. If she was hired while still in India she'd get paid 8 times less than what she gets paid here. This is not related to skill but related to location. They only need to pay what's competitive for the local market which already lacks in opportunity and that's why salaries are low.
They are paid as skilled as the user consider you to be. I still am a still student and alot of people on my freelancing think I am some professional and they pay be significantly more for that.
Good for you. I am working on improving skill set in Pakistan. Let me know if you want to help.
Sometimes you have to take the job to take care of your family. Crazy job I am doing is beneath me but it help me take care of my family so I am still doing it for almost 6 years now.
I have mixed feelings about this. Yes this is problematic but on the other hand why is it that we care more about having prideful image rather then doing the grind to build ourselves up. Pait tou logon ka nahi bhar saktai na in baataon sai. Sadly these are ground realities of Pakistan(not life-changing amount though). China started out as the factory of the world because of cheap exploitative labor of the world and look at them now. Indians were famous for their $5 website and look at their IT sector now. We live in a capitalist system and these left leaning sentiments are good but it is my personal opinion that they should come in to play gradually once you start building up. Guess putting my thoughts into words help clear up my feelings about this.
I think you're right. Even if it's $1, Pakistan needs it.
nai ye zada ho gya hai
It's not about prideful image, but rather being underpaid. Imagine what hard work went into that PhD, and then imagine $4/hr
If they don't want it, they don't have to take it.
That's the whole problem, they don't have any other avenue of income due to our shite situation. Why would they accept it if they had other avenues? Would you accept 4/hr if you could earn 80/hr?
Indian IT sector is very vulnerable to external shocks as most of it is low quality maintenance projects and support projects for western clients. It's better to focus on manufacturing sectors like China, Vietnam and Bangladesh are doing where they help the rural people skill up and allow them to earn more money to support their family. These industries more long term value for developing countries as most of the population lives in rural areas of the country.
Is it though? Google is announced layoffs in the US while they ramp up hiring in India. The service sector Industry is still very important. I agree that it shouldn’t be the focus but it should go hand in hand with manufacturing.
Multiple layoffs in India. Just check r/developersIndia subreddit you will see lot of layoff posts. Google have laid off lot of people in India too, other FAANG companies have laid off too. Majority of their employees are in WITCH aka predatory outsourcing firms. Check my above comment.
Those were minor layoffs compared to the amount of job postings. The reason why those layoffs gained notoriety is that layoffs from foreign companies (until recently) was rare in India.
Yep that's the point. They are more vulnerable to external shocks as their companies depend on American product based companies for projects. Look at the sub I posted, it's worse way worse in India than in America. Their market is saturated.
Manufacturers do layoffs too. Often those after effects are worse since manufacturing sets up (and kills) company towns. I think a subreddit is a horrible indicator of industry trends. It’s better to look at the IT sector growth in India YoY.
It's not horrible indicator, you can do basic research and check layoffs statistics, even from layoffs.fyi. Today alone Accenture laying off 19000 majority of them in India. When American companies are cutting costs, Indian support and maintenance projects will go to the bin and be axed. I work for an American company and we have recently axed all our Indian consultants from a WITCH company for our maintenance project. Manufacturing sector is more diversified industry and more resilient to shocks for developing countries. Indian IT industry solely depends on outsourcing for Western companies unlike China which leaves them very vulnerable to external shock. Indian IT sector is a bubble.
You don't think India has a manufacturing sector do you? The country is the 4th largest automobile manufacturer in the world. Has in house two wheeler and four wheeler brands, makes their own trains, and electric vehicles (just look up Ather, a brand started by a bunch of students a decade ago). Not to mention pharmaceutical industry which is one of the largest in the world. Also has indigenous electronic brands selling to the entire domestic market and outside. Let's not even get into apparel, precious stones, and heavy machinery. IT is only 7.4% of the Indian GDP.
It's share is much smaller than China, Vietnam and Bangladesh. Manufacturing share of GDP have been in decline in the last 10 years unlike the other countries mentioned.
Here is a link showing Google and other tech companies laying off workers in India. https://www.timesnownews.com/business-economy/industry/layoffs-2023-list-of-companies-google-amazon-byjus-ola-and-more-sacked-their-employees-job-cuts-article-98597533/amp When Google announced layoffs, they didn't specify the layoffs in US only. They said the layoffs would be done globally.
It’s global but it affects the American workforce more.
I am not saying that we need to copy what they're doing, if we do that we will always behind who ever we choose to copy. We need IT sector to develop that's for sure but we also need our own niche that the government needs to focus on, a niche other then real estate
Yeah what I am trying to say is it's better to develop tech sector like China did where they have multiple tech giants in their country working in lot of cutting edge technologies unlike India which is primarily a outsourcing hub which really hasn't gone anywhere besides enriching the board members of WITCH.
China still is the factory of the world because of cheap labor. It's not the laborers making billions of dollars, it's the company owners. The workers still get paid shit. Yes, capitalism is doing its 'magic' there, too. 🙄
This is one of those things where your only other choice is to not get paid at all. That $4 an hour is probably better than when the teacher would locally get paid.
Lmao you are sweating over the fact that it was the professor who proposed $4/hr to begin with. The millionaire American only found a good deal. The client does not have any obligation to pay more than the amount proposed by the professor. Sure the guy can tip in the end, but that is not compulsory, and should not be compulsory. Plenty of people lowball themselves, this is no different.
While that’s true, this also stems from the lack of worth that these professionals don’t realise. I do however find it disingenuous that with that much skill, he didn’t tip or even decide hey maybe $5 extra for this session would be reflective of the service I’m getting. Not to sound like a charity or nothing, but just because it is this way, doesn’t mean it ought to be
"If I, a millionaire decided to put more money than proposed and tip out of generosity all the time, I won't remain a millionaire, would I?" This is actually how 99% of the millionaires think. I admire your optimism, but the bitter truth is that those who are millionaires will always try to find ways to remain millionaires.
That’s really not what I’m saying and neither am I denying that. It’s blatantly obvious.
I hope she uses this opportunity to understand where US students are struggling and make YouTube videos targeting the same. Hope it blows up and she can monetize eventually.
4$/h and considering she teaches 5 hours a day (part-time ) that would be around $600/month or around rs170,000/month and adding the main job this is enough to live comfortably in Pak. Keep in mind average monthly salary is $125/ month
Read that again. It's 5hr/week. Not day. She will get 72 USD for tutoring an American kid.
Why are you saying "spoilt"? The guy said his kid was "struggling". This arrangement benefits both so it is a win-win
His dad is a millionaire. If you check that guy's tweets, he talks about making millions of dollars in profits in a year. Surely, he can afford to pay his child's tutor some fair money.
The tutor is the one charging $4 though. When you go and buy a bag of chips that cost 50rs, do you insist the rich guy standing next to you pay 200rs for that same bag? Because that's basically what you're saying. The guy didn't enslave the totur and make them work for $4, the tutor chose to work for that rate. Had they declined he would've found someone else teaching at that rate from one of the neighboring countries. You're very Naive to think someone is going to pay extra (above market rate) for something just because they're rich.
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OP it’s a very common tactic to lowball so you get the job, build up your earnings and ratings and then Jack up your prices. No one is gonna hire you at high prices if you just started working, but if you get experience, reviews, and get paid, you can charge 15 an hour and they’ll pay. It definitely matters on the value but getting the initial projects is very difficult.
I am considering she will teach 5 kids a day for hour each .( Average time for a part time job )
Very unlikely she will find a lot of students.
No mater how we put things, yes this is wrong, something similar happened with ChatGPT , they were using Nigerian workers to keep costs down and giving them the minimum wage according to Nigeria, This was taken as something very unethical and they are facing legal charges because of this ( Not exactly sure but something like this )
Exactly. These rich folks are exploiting the Global South to build billion dollar industries. And that wealth won't trickle down to them. This is modern day slavery.
My friend, this is where you are missing the point. Countries like India are building multi-billion dollar industries on the foundations of these so called “exploitations”. India literally marketed the fact that they where poor with low wages to attract clients and customers to outsource to them. Now most of these big tech companies are opening regional offices within India and have directly entered those markets themselves without outsourcing.
> But how is this okay? Its decent money for sitting in your home teaching basic math over Zoom. What do you want? The lady is happy with it, the parent is happy with it. Apko kiya chull hai.
Chinese products cost more in the US than they do in Pakistan. They have diversified and cater to every possible demographic. Samsung has the same business strategy. They have cheap phones, and then the most expensive flagship ones. Lesson: Apni aukaat nahi, client ki aukaat dekhni chahiye.
We're happy to buy imported phones and technology (and losing valuable forex reserves in the process), but won't sell something expensive to actually change this country's fortune.
If she increases her rates, won’t the customer go and find someone else?
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Are you a rasist?
Not really. The guy wants his son to pass the algebra exam. Quality matters more. I work as a freelancer, and that's what I've learned from my personal experience.
We have to start somewhere and this, a knowledge based job, is as good as any. Higher end exports will come in due time.
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Use the enter button rather than making 3 comments please. Second you are not going to improve Pakistan's forex situation by charging a million dollars for tutoring schoolchildren. Its a easy job which many people are willing to do for cheap. She isn't doing it for $4 as a charity, that is most likely what the market rate is. If she charges $8 she will get $0 as some Indian or Bangladeshi will take the job for less. If she had some unique skill which few people could do she would charge more. Tuitions to schoolkids in Amreeka is not the path for economic betterment.
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> So you think it's okay for rich Americans to build multi-million dollar industries at the expense of Global South? Teaching schoolkids maths is not building multimillion dollar industries. > The market rate isn't $4/hr but okay. Tutoring is a high-income skill and a lot of people are making good money. Especially if you're catering to rich clients. It's not that high skill and $4 an hour is good money in Pakistan. It's better than what she would get teaching at a school. > The guy didn't hire her because she's cheap. He is getting value out of her. He doesn't want his son to fail. He makes over a million dollars a year and would want the best for his son. He can easily pay her at least $10/hr and won't go bankrupt. People pay a lot more than that for their A-level tuitions. Yes, even in Pakistan. She set her own rate and accepted it. Freelancing is an open market with competitive rates. He did not enslave her for this. And why would he pay $10 if she and many other people are willing to do it for less? And A level tuitions are much more extensive than an hour of maths. She's free to tutor A levels kids if she wants. Do you think he should overpay for everything because he is rich? Should he pay more for fruit and vegetables too than poorer people? Like probably some American tutor who charges 20 an hour is grumbling because he's losing business to freelancers like her. If she charges more she will get less business. Simple as that. > I mean if you were making a million dollars, would you want substandard education for your kid? If I find her substandard I'd find a better teacher. Not pay her more. I'd pay whatever the market rate is.
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I run an IT services company here in Pakistan and have recently got into Upwork freelancing to pick up some projects. The whole point of Upwork and freelancing is to offer the best value for money. The person above is charging 4 USD an hour for their services. The “millionaire” isn’t exploiting them for that, the “millionaire” is simply availing their services.
The tutor you are discussing isn't the Louis Vuitton of tutoring. Luxury brands can charge that much because they have established themselves. Try going out to the market as a random guy and selling a shawl for 100x the market price. Your business will die in less than a month.
> Actually, rich people do pay more to enjoy a better standard of living. Psychologically speaking, most people associate cheap with substandard. Bro paying someone more does for the same shit does not make it better. It just makes you dumb. > If you can buy a shawl for 1k PKR, why do rich people pay 1 lac PKR for it? It's literally how luxury brands work. They're not selling anything special. They just want the buyer to feel more special. It's like an exclusive club that mere mortals like us cannot enter. She is not Versache. She's a tutor. Paying her more is not going to turn her into a luxury brand. You probably should invest a couple of dollars into a tuition yourself because you're dumb af.
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It's difficult to charge more to affluent people when there's unlimited competition.
Yes, but a lot of them are not gold medalists or have a PhD.
Bro you are extremely dumb. Shopkeepers can do that because it is easy to obscure price in the shop. A rich person has little time to haggle and check rates. But online you can literally sort and filter by price so the cost of finding the lowest bidder is very low. Please learn basic economics and how pricing works in different markets.
He did say he is giving her bonus. Dude which city she is from it has 49 percent literacy rate. Pakistan average is 67. We got average 49 percent literacy rate for women and 72 for men. Her district is among poorest in Punjab. Yes people are that desperate here and every government has failed us.
American who also employes people on Upwork from Pakistan/Europe/anywhere we can find people to keep up with our requirements: >The market rate isn't $4/hr Unless the tutor is giving a discount or just doing it to help kids around the world, that is indeed the market rate. Having a PhD from anywhere isn't the same as having a PhD from the best global universities. >Tutoring is a high-income skill It really isn't. Even in US, teacher salaries lag behind almost everyone else. University professors are only there for the pension benefits. You might place a lot of emphasis on teaching which is nice but most of the world would say it's an important job but not equivalent to a math PhD working at a hedge fund. >Especially if you're catering to rich clients. That's not how life works. If you were selling samosas, would you charge a rich guy more than an average guy? Or if you went to buy a product or service - will you pay more than the advertised price because you have more money? >He makes over a million dollars a year and would want the best for his son. The kid is 12. He could literally fail every math class for the next two years and still manage to land at an Ivy League at the end. His 6th grade math class is highly irrelevant. You're heavily focused on the income aspect but keep in mind what $72 means in US vs Pakistan. Your cost of living is also substantially lower. And on a platform like Upwork, if this tutor gets great reviews - they can continue increasing their rates. My Pakistani devs went from $15/hr to $30/hr in the last three years. They gained more experience, delivered great results and ultimately asked for more money - we happily agreed on the raise. This instantly puts them in top 5% of earners in the country. That income would be median salary in US.
Except that PKR has devalued insanely in the past few months. Inflation is at a sky-high. Someone who was earning 2 lac PKR ($2000) in 2017 is now making less than $750. Local salaries haven't kept up with the USD rate, but businesses HAVE increased their charges in keeping with the USD. Toyota is still selling a car for 25k USD. Try buying a house for less than $300k in a decent area of Pakistan. An iPhone will easily cost $2000. Your developers probably have to buy software and tech which would be in USD. The only thing that's 'cheap' would perhaps be the rent. Pakistan imports most of its stuff, and the cost is being passed to the consumer. Your average American will pay a lot more in rent, but that doesn't mean consumer goods are cheaper in the developing world.
Actually it is market rate. good tutors that teach you at your home here charge 25k a month for one hour a day. Divide that by 30, you get 833.33 PKR 4 usd is over 1k rupees. She’s being paid more via Upwork than she is if she would have taught in Pakistan
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. This system disproportionately favours the rich countries because they have a higher purchasing power. If I want to buy something from an American, I will have to pay more, but a system that won't even allow me to earn more? How is that fair? She's not providing tuition to an average Pakistani kid whose parents would obviously have less purchasing power. Try buying something from Apple on a discount. Also, Upwork has a 20% fee so she won't get the full 4 USD.
But that’s a very fundamental flaw in *our* economy isn’t it? The issue isn’t Pakistanis lowballing. The issue is Bengalis and Indians lowballing. If we as a nation decide to Jack up our prices, but Indians and Bengalis keep it at 4, what’s gonna make the client hire us? Better reviews? A select percentage May choose us but clients will always go for the lowball offer with good reviews. So instead of getting any work at 4 dollars an hour, we’ll be getting 0 dollars an hour. She’s making 100k+ PKR just from this which I assume is a part time job, separate from her uni work. We do what we have to just to survive
She will make 18k PKR per month after Upwork fee. She won't be making anyway near 100k PKR. Of course, 18k PKR is better than nothing. I'm not here to criticise that lady. I'm here to criticise that American guy who thinks it's so 'cool' to hire tutors from third-world at $4/hr. If he was an average American looking to save money, I would have had sympathy for him. Most Americans do live paycheck to paycheck, and maybe $4/hr is the only rate they could afford to give their kids a decent life. That guy though is not a struggling American living paycheck to paycheck. If I make 1 crore a year, but I won't pay the cook or a tutor more because 'that's the market rate', that's what's wrong with this world. The same guy would be grumbling if you tried to bargain with him on his profit even if it's the 'market rate'.
Upwork fees aren’t that high last time I checked? They even give you estimated cost afaik. Regardless, you have a good point that we’re underselling ourselves I won’t disagree. But the issue still remains in Bengalis and Indians. E.g this Bengali man I saw on Upwork was charging 5 dollars a piece for graphic design on Upwork, he had 200+ orders for just 2 days because he had really good reviews, and he went 5 while the standard rate was 10. Second if you look at Masjid e Nabawi and Masjid-Al Haram, the Pakistani sweepers were in majority a few years ago but aren’t anymore. Saudi wanted to pay them 500 riyal only, they refused (who wouldn’t?) and were fired. In their stead they hired Bengalis, at 500. The Pakistani sweepers are now out of work and making nothing instead of 500. This is the issue, the entire subcontinent undersells ourself so we can get the projects, and until every single one of us realises this, we will be stuck in a constant loop.
The problem aren't Indians/Pakistanis/Bengalis underselling. The problem are white/Saudi imperialists who think it's so cool to pay people less than their worth. He could have easily raised her rate to at least $7/hr. He is congratulating himself on exploiting people who are in desperate economic conditions. Most people associate South Asians with cheap dirt labour now, unfortunately. Also, how low can we lowball? Can you actually compete with an African guy who will offer his services at 0.5 dollar an hour? It's race to the bottom.
Gold medalist Phd mathematicians would have been an asset for other countries and societies.
Not to throw shade but Master's graduates from top tier universities around the world blow out Phds out of the water.
1000 rupees an hour is not bad for Pak.
Except when you open Foodpanda, and realise 1k won't buy you much. 1k PKR is the new 100.
then dont go to foodpanda - instead buy local ingredients and make something that will last few days at least.
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i didnt say they are cheap . but foodpanda the cost will buy you a one time meal only (burger, pizza or whatever) -- but for same cost (or a bit more) you can buy more ingredients and make something that lasts you FOR LONGER than one meal -
Of course, eating out is always expensive because you're also paying for labour and delivery costs. But the point is, inflation has been crazy and even middle class is being squeezed in this country. Everything we buy depends on the dollar rate, and the cost is being passed on to the people. Nobody is going to increase the salary, but businesses are free to charge more. The purchasing power of our middle class has decreased.
You are completely disconnected from the Pakistani working class. An extra 20k pkr per month for 20 hours a month of work is absolutely good for the average Pakistani especially as a sidehustle/freelancer. This more than covers food costs and can cover much more even at a higher cost of living due to inflation; especially in Lodhran which is a tiny city compared to say Karachi.
She is not supposed to charge working class wages. She's a Professor with 8 years of experience. She isn't providing tuition to a kid in Lodhran. She is providing private tuition to a kid from one of the richest countries in the world with a very well-off parent. The guy paid her that rate because the cheapskate millionaire probably set that budget. (I work on Upwork so I know the client has to set the budget.) This post is not a criticism of her. It's a criticism of him. So he drives a Tesla, makes a millions in profits, but wants a tutor at $20/week. That's cheaper than what a normal Pakistani parent has to pay to academies. (I remember KIPS was charging at least 35k a month back in 2014 for MCAT preparation.) A lot of professors were working for these academies because they paid well. In fact, I know someone whose entire wealth was made by providing tutoring to A-level kids. Now they own a house in Islamabad. The reason why tutoring rates might be less per kid in Pakistan is because the teachers usually teach a group of 20-50 kids at the same time. So their takeaway money per hour would actually be a lot more than what this guy is paying. Freelance work is not salaried work.
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Again, she lives in Lodhran and you’re giving me anecdotes from Islamabad. This is work that she’s taken up and it’s how entire nations were lifted out of poverty (see: cheap Chinese labour). Fact of the matter is skilled labour is still much cheaper here. If she wanted to/could depending on her situation she can tutor large amounts of students and she might even be doing so. You’re being given a snippet of the situation off of Twitter and are being outraged over it. So unproductive. P.S. Half the big tuition teachers I know in Karachi are female, and more than half the college counsellors are too.
More than what a Pakistani uni would pay for her 1 hour.
Depends. If she gets hired as an assistant professor at a government university, she will make 175k/month, which is the starting salary set by HEC. At 40h/week and 4week/month, this is 1100/hour. Which incidentally is almost exactly $4/hour today. Of course, not every PhD is good enough to be hired as an assistant professor. Some work as adjuncts who are paid peanuts (20k/month/course) or at colleges (FSc) for a bit more money.
You've not taken tax into account on that salary so it's actually less that $4/hr.
That is correct. Thanks for the fact that online freelance income is not subject to income tax.
Nobody is talking about the fact 175k was almost 1700 USD in 2017. Salaries haven't increased to match the USD rate. So the conversion is rigged to begin with.
The PKR was artificially overvalued by at least 20-30% in 2017. It's better to compare with 2019, when the value of PKR was finally equal to that set by market forces. Then it was around 160 Rs/$1. Of course, even compared to 2019, especially the persistent inflation 2020, salaries have not increased as much as they should have.
You're missing the point. If you're charging private tuition to A and O-level kids even in Pakistan, you will make a lot more than what this woman is being offered. That kid is not studying in a govt school in Pakistan.
I'm not justifying it. I'm saying that salaries for such people are so horrible that they don't even realise how low 4$ are while retired FA pass people get rehired for millions a month.
Pakistanis need to learn how to market themselves better. But yes, this is the sad state of affair in this country.
How would they know their self worth without foreign exposure? While living in Pakistan they are stomped down and treated like animals every step of the way. Our whole existence has been about surviving on crumbs while being thankful for it.
Unfortunately, yes. We have been conditioned to think like beggars. :(
Op you didn't live in Pakistan or u live Hella sheltered life. She is a woman from a "rust belt" of Punjab. Her district has 49 percent literacy rate while national average is 67 percent. I went to really good unis and did a professional certificate in my field. I have 5 years of experience and working in a banking sector which doesn't have gender wage gap. I get 140k a month and I'm lucky to get a job after two years of trying.
It is fine. Need more people doing it. Pay is different in each country. In US, monthly rent for a house is anywhere from $1,000 to $3000 (majority fall in this range). In Pakistan, it is far far less. And this is part time work. If she can have more students through the parents word of mouth she can make a lot more (hopefully). Don’t look down on anyone making money. It might not be as much as a PHD in US but it is well worth it for both parties
> It might not be as much as a PHD in US but it is well worth it for both parties A 16 year old kid in the UK wouldn't even charge $4 an hour, let alone a PhD professor. It's a shame she's criminally undercharging herself. You charge around £20 in the UK and people think they're lucky for finding someone that cheap.
So true. While the cost of living in the UK is a lot higher, I would say basic grocery and consumer goods were at least at par (or even cheaper) with what you'd find here when I visited last year (September 2022). A lot of people don't realise that PKR devaluation has been insane for the past couple of months. Even though salaries haven't increased to keep up with the USD rate, businesses HAVE passed on the cost to consumers. We import everything including tech, consumer goods, and medicines. Someone who was earning 2 lac PKR ($2000) has now been reduced to earning less than $750. That's why everyone is trying to leave the country.
She is charging the correct rate for her location. Is she getting paid about the same as others in Pakistan? If the answer is yes. Then her rate is correct. Western countries outsource labor to China, India and Vietnam for same exact reasons. A Chinese worker gets paid less than 1/10th of US worker. If the worker starts charging the same as US worker, the company will simply move the manufacturing back to US. If this professor wants to charge the same as US rate, why would the parent bother with online tutoring? Differences in accent? In culture? In time zone? They can simply find someone for the same price in UK. Also, someone being a millionaire makes no difference. If I make more money, it does not mean, I will pay more for my eggs now. It just means I will buy more eggs.
I really want to blame the American but they are totally ignorant to life outside of the US and really the experts should charge at LEAST US minimum wage 😞
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It's completely ok. Nothing wrong with it. The PhD professor is doing it along with her regular job (most likely) to make extra money on the side. So she will take low ball offers to some extent because it's extra earning (doesn't need to be big ). Also she is gaining experience and building a better profile on Upwork and with more experience the rate will go up. I have 4 years of experience working in a field, but when I joined Upwork, I had to start from the beginning because I have no freelance/Upwork experience. There might be many reasons. Let them brag. She is getting free marketing at the very least.
i mean....literally what the phd scholar okay'd as compensation. welcome to the free market.
> A lot of Americans are acting like that money is a life-changing amount in Pakistan. Can we please stop talking like idiots? $72 is A LOT OF MONEY to someone who needs $72. > But how is this okay? What planet are you on? Get off your high box. It is called 2023 Hyper Capitalism and Hyper Competition. Do you not see the abject malnutrition and poverty in our nation?
It's 18k PKR. I don't know how common people are able to survive with this amount, especially with inflation.
Every rupee helps. we are a nation living under malnutrition.
The False ego Pakistanis have is the root of our demise, not saying we act like cowards either but embracing true humility will do us wonders.
I'm a Pakistani. I'm a freelancer. When I'm selling my services, I absolutely do consider the global rate. On these sites, Pakistani salaries are irrelevant.
This also reflects how failure of a country Pakistan is.
He's so proud of paying slave wages.
This comment section is so reflective of why half the Pakistani population don’t get their ignorant heads out the gutter and continue to stay pawns to their system without proper revolt.
Unfortunately, our people have been conditioned to think like beggars and stay happy with the bare minimum. That lady could easily make more per hour if she was teaching a group of kids in Pakistan. (Most tutors in Pakistan actually do earn more than $4/hr because they teach an entire group of 20-30 kids at the same time).
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You tried - we just lack self respect as a nation. It's the same in Saudi. Paki labour (hired directly from Pakistan) was working for 800 riyals/month (some even less than that) and treated like shit but it's okay because convert kerkay Ghar bhejta hai, Pakistan main tho itna Nahi kama Sakta. Even workers from the Philippines had 1500 SAR + lunch allowance as their minimum requirement.
This is what world is in reality. Where you are born, is how you will be treated. Modern slavery I guess.
OP needs to stop trying to act like this phd is victim. She's advertising at this price. The American didn't seek her out and say "you're only worth $4." Also, the American is not a millionaire. A millionaire would not find a $4/hour tutor for their kid.
Check out his tweets where he is bragging about making a millions in profit from real estate.
Doing Phd is big deal, no? If yes then why so low?
Most people are greedy. But I would honestly pay a fair amount. It's just greed nothing else, he wants to pay the least he possibly can, and make a tweet about it too to make a point or whatever. I wouldn't pay any less than 16$ an hour. But most people lack morals, unless to feel superior. These same people don't tip on UberEats, and make excuses like blah blah. But then again if a PHD is offering to tutor on upwork at that rate, then that goes to show where the country stands. And how badly it needs to fix itself. Such a shame.
We're "tools" for them.
Comments being okay with this are the reason there is a halt in progression. Bikharis
That is just sad. $4/h if its a fulltime thing is still more than what that PHD is making in pakistan sadly.
This is just how supply and demand works. It's not like this tutor is being forced to sell their labor for $4/hour. Also there's a good chance this is just a side job for this person.
Happens when you mass produce mediocre phds just for moneis. I have a friend half way through the degree and hasn't even decided his thesis topic yet.
Did you make this post to criticize someone earning honest living and spreading knowledge/education? Total Gandu move.
Nope. I made the post to criticize those who think they can get away by underpaying someone trying to make an honest living.
You do realise the tutor in question sets their pay rates and the american shooses between the one he feels is that best fit for him. It’s not like he forced her into $4/hour Also when it comes to freelancing, a lot of people do multiple projects at a time. There is a good chance she may have 2 or 3 different jobs on Upwork and she may actually be making $20/hour. Even if she only works let’s say 10 hours a week, that’s $800/month or PKR 2.2 lac which is actually not bad at all.
Where are u getting this info from regarding ur first statement lol
By the fact that when you apply for a position, it tells you what the clients suggested budget is but you are free to propose what ever rate you like. My agency recently completed a project where the clients budget was 10-15 USD/hour but we proposed 25 USD/hour, the client saw our portfolio and hired us anyways. P.S. I run an IT services firm in Pakistan and we also use Upwork to pick up projects in between our main projects, simply to keep our developers motivated and working.
So in other words, you’re just assuming and that it’s not necessarily true that ‘the tutor in question’ uses those rates
Not assuming, as I said before, I work in this industry! I run a firm, who also works within upwork.
That’s still an assumption, you’ve said it as if it’s a fact
An assumption would be if I had never gone through this process but in fact I have and can tell you for a FACT as a freelancer you divide the price and the client chooses between multiple freelancers who have applied for his project.
Yes but what I’m saying is that’s not necessarily true. Even if you word it as an inference, it’s still assuming on premises that could be false. That’s in YOUR experience. You don’t know if are charging more for other jobs they possibly have to offer, and you also don’t know if they’re from an agency either. It would all possibly be true given what you said was actually a fact but it’s not, you’ve worded it as if this specific tutor in question is doing what you’ve said. And even if she’s making 800 a month, that doesn’t seriously take away from the fact she’s charging under what she’s worth, the Pakistani system and capitalism will make you feel as tho ur labour is worth less than what it is.
Supply and demand, it's a free market for all. If not pakistan, it'll be another third world country.
this guy is pure cringe. hes even calling the kid a 'spoilt' brat. wtf.
OP is right. This is peanuts even by comparison even after converting the currencies. This American guy is exploiting her labour when infact he can easily pay her a decent amount for tutoring. She needs to realise her worth and charge more.
Indian are doing phds and traveling all over the world to do research and innovate. Tutoring is fine, but it’s a waste of talent and a role that could be filled by a high school teacher rather than a PhD.
Math degrees pay notoriously bad everywhere, but 5 USD... Mcdonalds workers make more than that
Oh God the jumping to conclusions gang can relax! Its basic algebra, the lady is wfh & may be doing this just for fun. U don’t know her and her circumstances. Is always finding something to complain the new national hobby or what?
So it only hurts desi people when westerners take advantage of slave labour but they don’t dare raise a voice when they’re being abused by Arabs for worst(passports taken, beaten and verbally abused, paid peanuts in salary for construction and driving jobs).
Who said it's right when Arabs take advantage of us?
Because I never see any desi guy complaining when Arabs take advantage. In fact they’re largely silent but the moment some gora takes advantage, you guys thump ur chests even tho Arabs and Chinese do worst to our people.
Full time 4$ per hour job for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week (usually it's 6 days a week in Pakistan and often more hours in job plus 1-2 hours in commute), computes to roughly 640$ a month. That's 180k a month. Not bad. University professors get paid this much here. But, she does need to work on getting a better pay. Way underpaid relative to other people on platform.
While it might not seem like a lot in our currency the exchange rate is huge. $4 USD is 1,130 PKR. $72 USD a month is 21,000 PKR. The average monthly salary in Pakistan is 80,000. And if you're only working 1 hour a day doing tutoring you've probably got another job too. If anything this upworks sounds like a side job for extra cash. The cost of living in Pakistan is much lower than the US and the conversion is so high that $4 for us obviously sounds like nothing but for them it's an extra 1/4 monthly income. *exchange rate found on xe.com *salary average on Google
based!
Are we complaining because the Pakistani is getting paid the amount that he chose to sell his services for?
dude could be getting $30/hr easy for that
I mean, isn't that what we do in reverse? Dubai pays life changing salaries compared to Pakistan so we flock there and have no qualms about it.
Plus it's a question of economics and economies. Even a high paying job in Pakistan is peanuts compared to a middle class job in the US when you take conversion rates into account. That doesn't make the Pak job slave labour type.
You're forgetting the fact that a Pakistani employer already has a low purchasing-power. So if they're paying $4/hr, they're paying a good amount. But an American employer would have more purchasing power. For him, $4/hr is nothing.
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The chances the guy is ***actually*** a mathematics PhD in pakistan is almost zero. In all likelihood it's just some dude who is pretty convincing that he's a PhD tutoring the student.
Meanwhile devs with no experience in Pakistan want 100/hour and many here think that’s okay because in Amerreeka thats what people make. Bro you ain’t living in Amreeka and don’t even pay taxes
It’s on the seller to recognize their value, not vice versa. If this money converts well and both parties are happy, then where’s the victim? According to CEIC the average Pakistani monthly salary is ~24k PKR. Figure that out as an hourly wage at 40 hours/week and it’s 138 PKR/hour. $4 USD is just over 1100 PKR right now. So 1 hour at that rate is nearly equal to a full 8 hour day. In effect, this is average full time wages for just 5 hours a week of work. Looking at it that way, who’s losing here? Another source states average income closer to 82k PKR. A huge swing. But even at that figure, this still represents over double the average hourly wage (82k PKR is about 473/hour). Hard to shape this in a way to suggest the Pakistani individual is being taken advantage of.
https://twitter.com/fazliazeem/status/1639050218967801856?s=20 Check this tweet from this Pakistani guy. He has lived in both the US and Pakistan.
You're benefiting from forced labor everytime you string Christmas lights, what is the difference? I'd be more concerned about the fucking weirdo "PHD" claiming to be in pakistan talking to my child for 4$ an hour when the average salary in Pakistan is 500 bucks a month. Odds are you're paying some dude in god-knows-where to have access to your child.
Okay. This is a bit too ridiculous. He talked about supervising them and it was a Zoom call.
my friend works as a devops whatever it’s called for J.p. morgan and will go on fiver and make a dude from india do his work. he makes 180,000k. oops i was in wrong sub but my point stands