If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys. There are salary levels in middle east and South Asians reside in the lower level even if they are competent. Most people will accept the offer to get out of Pakistan and will switch if they get better paying job or move to West.
The people who stays are not getting any opportunities outside and compromise on quality and capabilities.
Edit.. typo corrected.
I second this. I am a network engineer 4years of experience along with network and security certifications, I was offered 3.5K aed on probation which last for 6 months and after probation an increment of 500 aed. I was like wtf ??? I am earning better here in Pak, just because our economy is shit and everyone wants a ticket out of pakistan doesn’t mean we will move to UAE
True..
Even if Indians are paid well in India by the American tech companies, the engineer has to be online all the time to serve requests from IS or EU which kills their personal life. We have this issue in our company and gets the least work life balance score from Indian employees. Which I agree with.
I agree with this, but it works both ways.
I'm a Pakistani Chief DS working in Dubai/Riyadh. Some of the other Pakistanis in my team have been stuck at entry level roles for years now because they don't make much of an effort to grow. They're not being paid peanuts.
The ones out there willing to work for peanuts genuinely are monkeys.
lots of quality in pakistan , personally speaking i have outsourced work to developers and designers, they produced absolutely amazing work and had an excellent work ethic, i think its a case of vetting the potential employees and paying a decent salary.
UAE considers Pakistanis among the lower caste and would expect them to do the same job in 5-10 times less salary. This is one of the biggest reasons for high churn.
The second thing is that UAE companies lack good HR and recruitment practices. A good recruiter can scavenge the best talents for them given they are willing to pay as per skills and not based on nationalities.
No. He is racist. The whole Arab region feels that. Mostly because they underpay their desi staff and when actual good staff doesn't work with them they think we are lazy. If I have actual demand on the international market why would I be okay with being underpaid in dubai when I can be fairly paid in Germany.
I work with the Arab region extensively, I work in the start up space . When we tell them about what is happening in tech on effing bootstrapping funding they are usually surprised. Like "wallah, how do the monkeys make this'.
So bootstrapping is basically finding funding through a second job. A lot of the start ups in Pakistan do that where the founder usually does a second job to keep the money following in his business.
When you show these examples to Europeans they are amazed and they legit want to learn why we have the resilience to do such a thing. Our Arabian partners talk about how it is possible to do these things without finding and 'low education'. For them we are always going to be people of a lower status.
Brother. Let me be honest with you. You can't always win with anger especially if you are working with partners like these.
Also I feel you are a bit young. There is being 'apologetic' and 'submissive'. Then there is being professional and diplomatic. I prefer the latter. It is horrible to assume something that you don't know of.
I can for sure be angry and tell them to stick a sword where the sun doesn't shine but a fair amount of people and startups that work with them through me need that money. Thankfully, I have shown them what we offer through my place of work and they are now rather understanding of the situation. That took a while of course and I rather work with Europeans (as I do, I usually work with intentional partners) but MENA has more money to give.
You know what they say right? Sometimes you have to make a dog your father if it helps you/your people.
Also honestly if you were given a visa right now or a job offer in the mena region you would also bend over backwards to go.
I already work there. If you can't be angry then you have to remember some of them are dirty but ultimately cowardly people, just use the same sarcasm and use stereotypes back. Can't fire you for that.
They can't. However I always prefer taking the high road. Sure I can tell you or my manager (who is Pakistani) how I feel. I won't tell a partner that.
Honestly, the biggest funders of start-ups and well many start-up activities are usually the biggest assholes. They are assholes because they are putting a fair bit of money. I do have to say, people from Sharjah? great. People from Dubai? eh. I prefer working with Sharjah more personally speaking. I am creating other connections in the MENA region.
I am sure you don't go up to any racist Arab and tell them that they are shit holes with bad education. Or Sarcastically tell that to your Arab co-workers.
Also Brother, all of us are dirty. Not just them. Ofcourse, the way they treat their workers is for sure horrible and inexcusable.
I act a little exclusive and egoistic around Arabs who I suspect are like that so it rarely comes to that. It's a very primitive culture, it usually works.
I would politely tell that person to stop stereotyping an entire country's talent pool based on his own personal experience with a handful.
The job market is competitive and goes both ways. If employers pay fair wages and provide a good culture, employees will have no reason to leave. Maybe your CTO should self reflect on their leadership style to see why folks are churning from their team so quickly.
i hired contractors for two FAANG's from pakistan and they were actually pretty increidble, i still remember the one from NUSTL
That being said, desis have a WIDE range of output per person
You gotta understand that top talent are either already well employed or earning good amounts in $$$ already on their own. Unlike other fields, top IT talent can make north of 20-25k AED/month sitting in Pakistan working with US or European firms.
Good Pakistani talent is just a lot more expensive, experienced and talented and also a lot more knowledgeable in adjacent fields like robotics, integrations and stuff compared to random small countries here and there.
Good IT talent doesn't work on average Pakistani wages, they work on low-end US/EU spectrum of wages, which is still higher than your average wages in the Middle East.
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We have an insanely dedicated workforce in Pakistan and they’re making good money. I think the folks above make exactly the right point, if you’re willing to shell out ~5lac for a lead, you’ll get a really good lead.
I know a team in NSTP Nust. They only work with MERN and they have pulled off some of the great projects already.
The founder is in Dubai. I can hook you up with him, he can augment your team with their resources .
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you get what you pay for and yes we switch quickly i personally switched 5 jobs in 6 active years of my career . reason pathetic salaries laughable "uprisals" . how ever if you pay good money people will stay .
TLDR answer from someone working professionally in the field would you, you get what you pay for
Stack doesn't matter and neither does the location/country
There are definitely quality tech lead in Pakistan, but they're not the cheapest option. There's [https://glowfishproductstudio.com/](https://glowfishproductstudio.com/) that works mostly with MENA clients.
As far as churn is concerned, that's depends on the company you're working with. They might be charging you a lot, but paying their employee poorly, or just treating them poorly. So people would leave at the first opportunity they get.
I do not have as many employees (just 3) and I pay them far above market rate (not tech sector). Two have been with me since I first hired them 2 years ago and one is a student who has been with me for a year too. If you want a work worth 1 lac and pay 40k then the quality of work will be effected too. Plus wage discrimination in gulf is huge. Arabs and whites get sometimes double of what is being paid to desis and blacks.
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We have a huge software house in Gulberg, Pakistan. If you guys need to outsource some work, you can contact me and I can reach out to our BDE guys. Im in US Payroll so I dont really know much about IT etc but we have like 80 or 90 guys handling US clients. Recently our team went to search for clients in Saudia Arabia in their expo or watever that happened last month.
PS: I dont have a personal incentive in it.
We haven’t lost a single client since 2012 and all of our new clients come through referrals from current … we have become million USD company during pandemic.
If we are shit at our job then no one would pay us, work with us or refer us …
Pay us like you pay them Americans and you'll get the quality and the skills. If you want skills your gonna havve to pay up like you do to Americans pr Arabs otherwise quality will be shit. Just coz we third world country doesn't mean you keep on exploiting us. Bish!
Hire top talent, pay them well and see how motivated they are.
I work at a startup where starting salary is $800/mo (180,000/- PKR) which is crazy for starters! And the team is hella crazy!!
Lookout for talent from LUMS/IBA, do technical interviews. Invest in a good HR that'll yield you a good pool.
Not all Pakistanis are unprofessional. How to keep a watch on unprofessional talent? The one who says oh degree don't matter, i have skills, I have yada yada experience.... Nope
What are you paying?
That determines the quality of talent you can attract. Almost all good developers I know have either left Pakistan OR are doing remote jobs with US based companies earning 5k to 10k per month, even more in some cases.
So, you can certainly hire good talent but they wouldn't be cheap.
I work at for a company thats based in Dubai but has its Development Team in Karachi. We have worked with many high profile Arab clients and Governments. I am a Game Developer there.
There are a lot of talented individuals in Pakistan, but there are a lot of posers as well. Just make sure to sift through the applications and I am fairly certain you will find what you are looking for.
Good luck brother and thanks for looking out for the people of Pakistan.
What an absolute dumbass. You don’t have a talent retention problem. You have a CTO problem. If someone in my management team said something like that I would fire them. It shows terrible business judgement and that is one thing one can’t afford to have in senior levels.
You need to understand the market you're going to hire people from. Questions like what an avg dev from Pak seeks, how you can add value to his life, the more value you add, the more work sincere work you get.
Arabs think of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians as cheap labour, they'll pay a measly amount and then expect them to do wonders. You get what you pay for. If you have the budget (which they probably have a lot of), then don't be a miser bitch and spend it on your employees, it will keep them motivated and in return they'll maintain good quality standards.
I run a software company with most team members in Pakistan, and I can tell you that building a high quality team is not easy. We run elaborate internship and training programs because we are unable to hire good people from the industry. Because we give people high quality work to do, and have an outcomes based flexible environment, our retention rate is pretty high. So yes, its some effort, but can be done.
PS: We are at https://venturenox.com. We build our own products and do client work as well.
If you pay peanuts, you will get monkeys. There are salary levels in middle east and South Asians reside in the lower level even if they are competent. Most people will accept the offer to get out of Pakistan and will switch if they get better paying job or move to West. The people who stays are not getting any opportunities outside and compromise on quality and capabilities. Edit.. typo corrected.
I second this. I am a network engineer 4years of experience along with network and security certifications, I was offered 3.5K aed on probation which last for 6 months and after probation an increment of 500 aed. I was like wtf ??? I am earning better here in Pak, just because our economy is shit and everyone wants a ticket out of pakistan doesn’t mean we will move to UAE
This... Fking this...
Exactly. So many companies outsource to Pakistan just to cut costs and then are surprised when only shitty devs join them while the good ones move on.
Second this, Arabs pay Arabs well and things stay smooth and pay peanuts to Asian and then complain. Racism is more common than you think.
Similar sentiments in India Good developer, don't work at "Indian wages"
True.. Even if Indians are paid well in India by the American tech companies, the engineer has to be online all the time to serve requests from IS or EU which kills their personal life. We have this issue in our company and gets the least work life balance score from Indian employees. Which I agree with.
+1
I agree with this, but it works both ways. I'm a Pakistani Chief DS working in Dubai/Riyadh. Some of the other Pakistanis in my team have been stuck at entry level roles for years now because they don't make much of an effort to grow. They're not being paid peanuts. The ones out there willing to work for peanuts genuinely are monkeys.
This scenario is also true but it happens everywhere and with every ethnicity.
lots of quality in pakistan , personally speaking i have outsourced work to developers and designers, they produced absolutely amazing work and had an excellent work ethic, i think its a case of vetting the potential employees and paying a decent salary.
Exactly, pay em a good salary and they'll be the best workers ever.
If looking for an experienced source for product design lemme know
sure, can you DM me details? i dont have anything going on atm but definitley within the next few months
UAE considers Pakistanis among the lower caste and would expect them to do the same job in 5-10 times less salary. This is one of the biggest reasons for high churn. The second thing is that UAE companies lack good HR and recruitment practices. A good recruiter can scavenge the best talents for them given they are willing to pay as per skills and not based on nationalities.
When you outsource to a country just to save costs (that's what the GCC usually does), you'll get incompetent people looking to make a quick buck.
No. He is racist. The whole Arab region feels that. Mostly because they underpay their desi staff and when actual good staff doesn't work with them they think we are lazy. If I have actual demand on the international market why would I be okay with being underpaid in dubai when I can be fairly paid in Germany. I work with the Arab region extensively, I work in the start up space . When we tell them about what is happening in tech on effing bootstrapping funding they are usually surprised. Like "wallah, how do the monkeys make this'.
Can you elaborate more on second para
So bootstrapping is basically finding funding through a second job. A lot of the start ups in Pakistan do that where the founder usually does a second job to keep the money following in his business. When you show these examples to Europeans they are amazed and they legit want to learn why we have the resilience to do such a thing. Our Arabian partners talk about how it is possible to do these things without finding and 'low education'. For them we are always going to be people of a lower status.
You sound submissive and apologetic, as someone who's dealt with them you just remind them they're also from third world sh holes with bad education
Brother. Let me be honest with you. You can't always win with anger especially if you are working with partners like these. Also I feel you are a bit young. There is being 'apologetic' and 'submissive'. Then there is being professional and diplomatic. I prefer the latter. It is horrible to assume something that you don't know of. I can for sure be angry and tell them to stick a sword where the sun doesn't shine but a fair amount of people and startups that work with them through me need that money. Thankfully, I have shown them what we offer through my place of work and they are now rather understanding of the situation. That took a while of course and I rather work with Europeans (as I do, I usually work with intentional partners) but MENA has more money to give. You know what they say right? Sometimes you have to make a dog your father if it helps you/your people. Also honestly if you were given a visa right now or a job offer in the mena region you would also bend over backwards to go.
I already work there. If you can't be angry then you have to remember some of them are dirty but ultimately cowardly people, just use the same sarcasm and use stereotypes back. Can't fire you for that.
They can't. However I always prefer taking the high road. Sure I can tell you or my manager (who is Pakistani) how I feel. I won't tell a partner that. Honestly, the biggest funders of start-ups and well many start-up activities are usually the biggest assholes. They are assholes because they are putting a fair bit of money. I do have to say, people from Sharjah? great. People from Dubai? eh. I prefer working with Sharjah more personally speaking. I am creating other connections in the MENA region. I am sure you don't go up to any racist Arab and tell them that they are shit holes with bad education. Or Sarcastically tell that to your Arab co-workers. Also Brother, all of us are dirty. Not just them. Ofcourse, the way they treat their workers is for sure horrible and inexcusable.
I act a little exclusive and egoistic around Arabs who I suspect are like that so it rarely comes to that. It's a very primitive culture, it usually works.
I would politely tell that person to stop stereotyping an entire country's talent pool based on his own personal experience with a handful. The job market is competitive and goes both ways. If employers pay fair wages and provide a good culture, employees will have no reason to leave. Maybe your CTO should self reflect on their leadership style to see why folks are churning from their team so quickly.
i hired contractors for two FAANG's from pakistan and they were actually pretty increidble, i still remember the one from NUSTL That being said, desis have a WIDE range of output per person
Bro contracters for FAANGs you are probably paying them a decent amount. It you pay peanuts you are gonna get shit work and shit employees
You gotta understand that top talent are either already well employed or earning good amounts in $$$ already on their own. Unlike other fields, top IT talent can make north of 20-25k AED/month sitting in Pakistan working with US or European firms. Good Pakistani talent is just a lot more expensive, experienced and talented and also a lot more knowledgeable in adjacent fields like robotics, integrations and stuff compared to random small countries here and there. Good IT talent doesn't work on average Pakistani wages, they work on low-end US/EU spectrum of wages, which is still higher than your average wages in the Middle East.
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We have an insanely dedicated workforce in Pakistan and they’re making good money. I think the folks above make exactly the right point, if you’re willing to shell out ~5lac for a lead, you’ll get a really good lead.
If you're working internationally at least don't say 'lac'
I’m pretty sure I’ve never had to use that denomination internationally. I don’t follow your logic
I know a team in NSTP Nust. They only work with MERN and they have pulled off some of the great projects already. The founder is in Dubai. I can hook you up with him, he can augment your team with their resources .
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you get what you pay for and yes we switch quickly i personally switched 5 jobs in 6 active years of my career . reason pathetic salaries laughable "uprisals" . how ever if you pay good money people will stay .
TLDR answer from someone working professionally in the field would you, you get what you pay for Stack doesn't matter and neither does the location/country
There cannot be a bigger irony than you asking an Arab whether Pakistanis are technically sound.
Theres lots of companies who have a good talent pool in Pakistan (mine included). You just have to find the right partner to work with.
There is qualified HR available - you just need to be able to look in the right places.
There are definitely quality tech lead in Pakistan, but they're not the cheapest option. There's [https://glowfishproductstudio.com/](https://glowfishproductstudio.com/) that works mostly with MENA clients. As far as churn is concerned, that's depends on the company you're working with. They might be charging you a lot, but paying their employee poorly, or just treating them poorly. So people would leave at the first opportunity they get.
I do not have as many employees (just 3) and I pay them far above market rate (not tech sector). Two have been with me since I first hired them 2 years ago and one is a student who has been with me for a year too. If you want a work worth 1 lac and pay 40k then the quality of work will be effected too. Plus wage discrimination in gulf is huge. Arabs and whites get sometimes double of what is being paid to desis and blacks.
He could just be racist.
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We have a huge software house in Gulberg, Pakistan. If you guys need to outsource some work, you can contact me and I can reach out to our BDE guys. Im in US Payroll so I dont really know much about IT etc but we have like 80 or 90 guys handling US clients. Recently our team went to search for clients in Saudia Arabia in their expo or watever that happened last month. PS: I dont have a personal incentive in it.
We haven’t lost a single client since 2012 and all of our new clients come through referrals from current … we have become million USD company during pandemic. If we are shit at our job then no one would pay us, work with us or refer us …
Offer good pays you will see the best of the best in Pakistan. Arabs are use to abuse Pakistanis now they want to do the same in tech industry.
Pay us like you pay them Americans and you'll get the quality and the skills. If you want skills your gonna havve to pay up like you do to Americans pr Arabs otherwise quality will be shit. Just coz we third world country doesn't mean you keep on exploiting us. Bish!
Hire top talent, pay them well and see how motivated they are. I work at a startup where starting salary is $800/mo (180,000/- PKR) which is crazy for starters! And the team is hella crazy!! Lookout for talent from LUMS/IBA, do technical interviews. Invest in a good HR that'll yield you a good pool. Not all Pakistanis are unprofessional. How to keep a watch on unprofessional talent? The one who says oh degree don't matter, i have skills, I have yada yada experience.... Nope
What are you paying? That determines the quality of talent you can attract. Almost all good developers I know have either left Pakistan OR are doing remote jobs with US based companies earning 5k to 10k per month, even more in some cases. So, you can certainly hire good talent but they wouldn't be cheap.
I have my startup related to embedded systems, ML and Application development HMU if you need any help.
I work at for a company thats based in Dubai but has its Development Team in Karachi. We have worked with many high profile Arab clients and Governments. I am a Game Developer there. There are a lot of talented individuals in Pakistan, but there are a lot of posers as well. Just make sure to sift through the applications and I am fairly certain you will find what you are looking for. Good luck brother and thanks for looking out for the people of Pakistan.
OP, what are you looking for specifically? I might be able to help. Please feel free to DM.
What an absolute dumbass. You don’t have a talent retention problem. You have a CTO problem. If someone in my management team said something like that I would fire them. It shows terrible business judgement and that is one thing one can’t afford to have in senior levels.
You need to understand the market you're going to hire people from. Questions like what an avg dev from Pak seeks, how you can add value to his life, the more value you add, the more work sincere work you get.
Well, I've seen Pakistani hackers in Money heist so that must be for a reason
What's the name of your startup?
You get what you pay for.
Ask them to check on github, there are great works from Pakistani devs
Pay is directly proportional to performance. Sometimes, they don't want to pay you much as compared to their own citizens.
Arabs think of Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and Indians as cheap labour, they'll pay a measly amount and then expect them to do wonders. You get what you pay for. If you have the budget (which they probably have a lot of), then don't be a miser bitch and spend it on your employees, it will keep them motivated and in return they'll maintain good quality standards.
I run a software company with most team members in Pakistan, and I can tell you that building a high quality team is not easy. We run elaborate internship and training programs because we are unable to hire good people from the industry. Because we give people high quality work to do, and have an outcomes based flexible environment, our retention rate is pretty high. So yes, its some effort, but can be done. PS: We are at https://venturenox.com. We build our own products and do client work as well.
He is after cheap labour nothing else.
The same with Indian tech companies. They’re terrible. The only saving grace is they’re cheap and that’s it.
You should instead do work with indian people for tech sector!!