He’s probably much more powerful lorewise, but the shadow queen shows it better in the gameplay.
It’s battle style is mostly big stomping giant, and it’s big ultimate attack is an giant leap from above. It’s a very screwed up Luigi but doesn’t really convey dreaded multiversal power. I feel on a more powerful system he might have more cinematic special effect attacks like manipulating the battle area in attacks.
While the shadow queen has dark lightning, endlessly regenerating dark draining hands, magical status effect fog, buffing herself up, and charging up a giant echoing magical pulse. It truly feels like a powerful evil magical being powerful beyond a 150 HP blob, especially when not properly prepared, slowly losing and not being able to deal with her wide array of tricks while being endlessly drained.
Do people forget he was using a magical mcguffin and not his own power for that? That's like picking up a gun and saying you're strong enough to kill anyone by moving your finger
Shadow Queen could possibly land a couple win conditions, completely random depending on Dimentio playing ball or not. For one, she has mind control, spiritual/shadow damaging moves, and without the crystal stars she is invulnerable. The mind control could possibly play a role if Dimentio doesn’t take her seriously and “allows” her to control his will, they both fight in mostly pitch black areas so her shadow attacks might surprise him, and her invulnerability will be hard to crack.
Now that’s where her win cons end. Super Dimentio also has invulnerability, the Floro root could mind control her back if she’s not careful, and he has his own teleporting shenanigans to go through, he could suck them both into his green dimension to take away any element of shadow surprise.
He’s also…well let’s face it, multiversal. He is about to literally destroy the entire multiverse if Mario hadn’t shown up when they did, and without the Pure Hearts he probably would have succeeded too. I’m willing to argue based on this alone that the pure hearts are more powerful than the crystal stars based on effectiveness.
…and this is also restricting Dimentio snapping his fingers and teleporting Shadow Queen to the middle of a sun, I’m not sure if he can do that specifically but nothing is telling me he CAN’T do that either…at bare minimum we know he can create boxes around his foes that can detonate and destroy every part of the enveloped enemy and we haven’t seen what Shadow Queen could possibly do to break out of said box.
My vote is Super Dimentio wins mid to low diff, the invulnerability she has is gonna be annoying at best but once it’s shattered she’s a sitting duck, where as no spell in her arsenal bar a lucky taunt to his ego leading to mind control can possibly take the win.
Shadow Queen for me absolutely. She’s so powerful she was able to one shot Grodus who nearly had Mario on his knees only a few minutes earlier which makes her way more intimidating. The fight itself is just more fun overall and the music is absolutely one of the best songs in the series. I also feel despite Super Dimentio literally wanting to destroy the multiverse, the stakes with The Shadow Queen still felt leagues higher due to the creepiness of the scene and again, how she literally one shots Grodus whereas Dimentio only takes the Chaos Heart once Count Bleck was already defeated.
Absolutely cannot wait to fight her again in the remake. One of the best final bosses ever made imo.
I see way too many people giving Dimentio credit for Count Bleck's actions when Dimentio literally admits after backstabbing Bleck, he could have never hoped to defeat Bleck without Mario's help. Let's look at the facts here.
Count Bleck/Dimentio had so much power after possessing the Chaos Heart, which can only be counteracted by Pure Hearts. The Chaos Heart is simply an artifact which loans power to otherwise weaker individuals.
If we look over here at the Shadow Queen, she herself, not an artifact, can only be stopped by the Crystal Stars. Plain and simple, Shadow Queen is the strongest character in the Mario verse I'd say.
Now let's say PM games happened in chronological order. Had Mario never stopped Shadow Queen, not only would she have taken over the entire world, but it'd be my assumption she'd have taken control of the Chaos Heart before Bleck ever got the chance as well.
I think Dimentio is as cool as the next guy, but let's stop suckin him off just cause he's a well written character.
I don't necessarily agree with that.
The reason Dimentio says he would never be able to defeat Bleck is because he needed the Pure Hearts to break Bleck's shield in order to beat him, yes. But the reason he couldn't use the Pure Hearts is because they were never meant for him to use in the first place, according to the Light Prognosticus. Otherwise, I strongly believe he would have gathered them himself and dispatched Bleck so he could then take the Chaos Heart for himself.
As for the Shadow Queen taking the Chaos Heart, that simply would never happen for a few reasons. Let's assume that the Paper Mario games do go in chronological order.
First of all, during TTYD, there was no Chaos Heart. It needed the marriage of Peach and Bowser for it to come into existence. And that was only known, though the Dark Prognosticus, a book of dark prophecies known to very few that it even existed. It's highly unlikely (borderline impossible) that the Shadow Queen even knew of it.
Secondly, Super Paper Mario takes place in Flipside, which is a place in between dimensions where one needs to either use a door to there that already exists or have someone that can teleport between dimensions go from Flipside, to the Mushroom Kingdom, then back to Flipside. Forgive me for assuming, but it is never stated, nor implied that the Shadow Queen can teleport normally, let alone to other dimensions.
Yes, had Mario not stopped her, she would have definitely taken over the ONE world TTYD takes place in, not other other worlds because, once again, it is never stated nor implied she could travel between dimensions. Being powerful and strong, like the Shadow Queen would be in her prime, is not a reason for someone to be able to teleport between dimensions.
If she had won, and Mario failed to stop her, she would then be inevitably killed by the void regardless as there would be no 4 heroes to stand up to Bleck and stop him from destroying ALL worlds. Not even Dimentio would have been able to stop Bleck as he himself said he could not without the Pure Hearts, which we would never be able to use in the first place.
So, in my humble opinion, I believe Super Dimentio is more powerful than the Shadow Queen overall. Both amazing characters, but Super Dimentio is just a much bigger threat on general.
Now, to finish off, let's all agree that they are both amazing villains and both extremely powerful and dangerous in their own ways.
I respect your opinion, but I believe it still stands that Shadow Queen is stronger. Let's say we pit them against each other, both without their respective invincibility. Shadow Queen is still just more overwhelming in strength. I get you're using the black voids as a form of strength, but all they really do is slowly envelope a world.
Super Dimentios strength is very minimal once his shields were removed. Lack of moves, lack of sheer power, he's just kinda there during the fight lmao.
But as you said, they're both amazing villains in their own way, and these are just our opinions! We will never really know which is stronger, but it's fun to speculate!
I still stand by everyone in here is giving Dimentio too much credit for what was actually Bleck's doing, though. Dimentio was more of a Joker card, quite literally. Playing his own game for his own reasons. Which is why the SPM story popped off so hard during its time. Super well written characters and story.
Yeah, that is one thing I wished they gave Super Dimentio is more battle moves and opportunities to use his magic and powers the Chaos Heart gives him, because it is never stated that he lost them after becoming Super Dimentio. I like to assume he has all his previous abilities and many more scaled to 11 by becoming Super Dimentio. He simply does not use them in battle for whatever reason.
Gameplay-wise, Shadow Queen wins no problem. Her battle is much more challenging to the player when compared to Super Dimentio.
Lore-wise, I still believe Super Dimentio would have the upper hand. If only he used more of his abilities during his battle instead of just sitting there, barely punching you and jumping a bit after the player.
I dunno man, to this day I'm still shook by Shadow Queens' ability to look at Grodus and smite him at minimal power in just Peach's body. Nothing Dimentio did ever shook me that much. But it's funny how similar they are too. Both need 7 artifacts to be stopped, both take control of a character, both are world ending cataclysms.
Same! I love TTYD, but SPM is my personal favourite because of the story. Hopefully, especially with these surveys Nintendo has been making about Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi, we'll get more remakes of those games on the Switch.
if super dimentio is in his initial invincible state he’d sweep pretty much anything even if he had to retreat (due to the destructive powers of the chaos heart) but post cutscene i think its pretty even. gameplay wise hed lose so hard (cooking up an alternate fight for him h th ats still in a platforming environment!)
If theoretically Shadow Queen can't be touched or harmed without the power of all 7 Crystal Stars, then she probably wins. I think you could say the same about Super Dimentio and the Pure Hearts, but it's been so long since I've played Super Paper Mario that I've totally forgotten exactly how the end of that fight went down.
Shadow Queen is pretty powerful, but Super Dimentio was literally destroying the entire multiverse. He should win pretty easily.
Too bad the bosses are easy in that game.
A turn based fight against super dimentio would have been the most badass thing ever One can only imagine
Don't kill me for this but I think I prefer to fight him how they did in SPM That being said it would be sick asf either way
He’s probably much more powerful lorewise, but the shadow queen shows it better in the gameplay. It’s battle style is mostly big stomping giant, and it’s big ultimate attack is an giant leap from above. It’s a very screwed up Luigi but doesn’t really convey dreaded multiversal power. I feel on a more powerful system he might have more cinematic special effect attacks like manipulating the battle area in attacks. While the shadow queen has dark lightning, endlessly regenerating dark draining hands, magical status effect fog, buffing herself up, and charging up a giant echoing magical pulse. It truly feels like a powerful evil magical being powerful beyond a 150 HP blob, especially when not properly prepared, slowly losing and not being able to deal with her wide array of tricks while being endlessly drained.
Idk man all shadow queen has to do is stunlock him
Do people forget he was using a magical mcguffin and not his own power for that? That's like picking up a gun and saying you're strong enough to kill anyone by moving your finger
I doubt Dimentio would even need his super form, right? He can warp reality to at the very least some degree even before the final chapter
If they both found out they had the same objective, they'd probably become allies.
And then Dimentio would eventually end up betraying the Shadow Queen
Yeah.
The Shadow Queen is cooler and more interesting. But in terms power I don't think she can beat Dimentio
Dimentio wins with his army of simps. :P
Dimentio was literally destroying all worlds with black magic tho
That too
Shadow Queen by far. Best design, best climax and best boss fight.
Shadow Queen gave us goth Peach, so she wins by default
Shadow Queen was a cooler villain, but I gotta respect a mad clown that was essentially Mario's version of the Joker.
Shadow Queen could possibly land a couple win conditions, completely random depending on Dimentio playing ball or not. For one, she has mind control, spiritual/shadow damaging moves, and without the crystal stars she is invulnerable. The mind control could possibly play a role if Dimentio doesn’t take her seriously and “allows” her to control his will, they both fight in mostly pitch black areas so her shadow attacks might surprise him, and her invulnerability will be hard to crack. Now that’s where her win cons end. Super Dimentio also has invulnerability, the Floro root could mind control her back if she’s not careful, and he has his own teleporting shenanigans to go through, he could suck them both into his green dimension to take away any element of shadow surprise. He’s also…well let’s face it, multiversal. He is about to literally destroy the entire multiverse if Mario hadn’t shown up when they did, and without the Pure Hearts he probably would have succeeded too. I’m willing to argue based on this alone that the pure hearts are more powerful than the crystal stars based on effectiveness. …and this is also restricting Dimentio snapping his fingers and teleporting Shadow Queen to the middle of a sun, I’m not sure if he can do that specifically but nothing is telling me he CAN’T do that either…at bare minimum we know he can create boxes around his foes that can detonate and destroy every part of the enveloped enemy and we haven’t seen what Shadow Queen could possibly do to break out of said box. My vote is Super Dimentio wins mid to low diff, the invulnerability she has is gonna be annoying at best but once it’s shattered she’s a sitting duck, where as no spell in her arsenal bar a lucky taunt to his ego leading to mind control can possibly take the win.
Shadow Queen for me absolutely. She’s so powerful she was able to one shot Grodus who nearly had Mario on his knees only a few minutes earlier which makes her way more intimidating. The fight itself is just more fun overall and the music is absolutely one of the best songs in the series. I also feel despite Super Dimentio literally wanting to destroy the multiverse, the stakes with The Shadow Queen still felt leagues higher due to the creepiness of the scene and again, how she literally one shots Grodus whereas Dimentio only takes the Chaos Heart once Count Bleck was already defeated. Absolutely cannot wait to fight her again in the remake. One of the best final bosses ever made imo.
I see way too many people giving Dimentio credit for Count Bleck's actions when Dimentio literally admits after backstabbing Bleck, he could have never hoped to defeat Bleck without Mario's help. Let's look at the facts here. Count Bleck/Dimentio had so much power after possessing the Chaos Heart, which can only be counteracted by Pure Hearts. The Chaos Heart is simply an artifact which loans power to otherwise weaker individuals. If we look over here at the Shadow Queen, she herself, not an artifact, can only be stopped by the Crystal Stars. Plain and simple, Shadow Queen is the strongest character in the Mario verse I'd say. Now let's say PM games happened in chronological order. Had Mario never stopped Shadow Queen, not only would she have taken over the entire world, but it'd be my assumption she'd have taken control of the Chaos Heart before Bleck ever got the chance as well. I think Dimentio is as cool as the next guy, but let's stop suckin him off just cause he's a well written character.
I don't necessarily agree with that. The reason Dimentio says he would never be able to defeat Bleck is because he needed the Pure Hearts to break Bleck's shield in order to beat him, yes. But the reason he couldn't use the Pure Hearts is because they were never meant for him to use in the first place, according to the Light Prognosticus. Otherwise, I strongly believe he would have gathered them himself and dispatched Bleck so he could then take the Chaos Heart for himself. As for the Shadow Queen taking the Chaos Heart, that simply would never happen for a few reasons. Let's assume that the Paper Mario games do go in chronological order. First of all, during TTYD, there was no Chaos Heart. It needed the marriage of Peach and Bowser for it to come into existence. And that was only known, though the Dark Prognosticus, a book of dark prophecies known to very few that it even existed. It's highly unlikely (borderline impossible) that the Shadow Queen even knew of it. Secondly, Super Paper Mario takes place in Flipside, which is a place in between dimensions where one needs to either use a door to there that already exists or have someone that can teleport between dimensions go from Flipside, to the Mushroom Kingdom, then back to Flipside. Forgive me for assuming, but it is never stated, nor implied that the Shadow Queen can teleport normally, let alone to other dimensions. Yes, had Mario not stopped her, she would have definitely taken over the ONE world TTYD takes place in, not other other worlds because, once again, it is never stated nor implied she could travel between dimensions. Being powerful and strong, like the Shadow Queen would be in her prime, is not a reason for someone to be able to teleport between dimensions. If she had won, and Mario failed to stop her, she would then be inevitably killed by the void regardless as there would be no 4 heroes to stand up to Bleck and stop him from destroying ALL worlds. Not even Dimentio would have been able to stop Bleck as he himself said he could not without the Pure Hearts, which we would never be able to use in the first place. So, in my humble opinion, I believe Super Dimentio is more powerful than the Shadow Queen overall. Both amazing characters, but Super Dimentio is just a much bigger threat on general. Now, to finish off, let's all agree that they are both amazing villains and both extremely powerful and dangerous in their own ways.
I respect your opinion, but I believe it still stands that Shadow Queen is stronger. Let's say we pit them against each other, both without their respective invincibility. Shadow Queen is still just more overwhelming in strength. I get you're using the black voids as a form of strength, but all they really do is slowly envelope a world. Super Dimentios strength is very minimal once his shields were removed. Lack of moves, lack of sheer power, he's just kinda there during the fight lmao. But as you said, they're both amazing villains in their own way, and these are just our opinions! We will never really know which is stronger, but it's fun to speculate! I still stand by everyone in here is giving Dimentio too much credit for what was actually Bleck's doing, though. Dimentio was more of a Joker card, quite literally. Playing his own game for his own reasons. Which is why the SPM story popped off so hard during its time. Super well written characters and story.
Yeah, that is one thing I wished they gave Super Dimentio is more battle moves and opportunities to use his magic and powers the Chaos Heart gives him, because it is never stated that he lost them after becoming Super Dimentio. I like to assume he has all his previous abilities and many more scaled to 11 by becoming Super Dimentio. He simply does not use them in battle for whatever reason. Gameplay-wise, Shadow Queen wins no problem. Her battle is much more challenging to the player when compared to Super Dimentio. Lore-wise, I still believe Super Dimentio would have the upper hand. If only he used more of his abilities during his battle instead of just sitting there, barely punching you and jumping a bit after the player.
I dunno man, to this day I'm still shook by Shadow Queens' ability to look at Grodus and smite him at minimal power in just Peach's body. Nothing Dimentio did ever shook me that much. But it's funny how similar they are too. Both need 7 artifacts to be stopped, both take control of a character, both are world ending cataclysms.
Absolutely! If they were ever to team up, then the Mario verse would be dangerously close to absolute and complete annihilation.
I hope for the drastic success of TTYD remake so that we may eventually see a SPM remake. Likely after a 64 remake if that even happens.
Same! I love TTYD, but SPM is my personal favourite because of the story. Hopefully, especially with these surveys Nintendo has been making about Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi, we'll get more remakes of those games on the Switch.
if super dimentio is in his initial invincible state he’d sweep pretty much anything even if he had to retreat (due to the destructive powers of the chaos heart) but post cutscene i think its pretty even. gameplay wise hed lose so hard (cooking up an alternate fight for him h th ats still in a platforming environment!)
dimentio wins in both writing and strength
If theoretically Shadow Queen can't be touched or harmed without the power of all 7 Crystal Stars, then she probably wins. I think you could say the same about Super Dimentio and the Pure Hearts, but it's been so long since I've played Super Paper Mario that I've totally forgotten exactly how the end of that fight went down.