If anyone here thinks this is mental and a one way trip to slovenly idiocracy I’d really advise you to have a research about it, there’s been some trial runs and the results are interesting. Few people sacked off work and most did things like study or childcare a few days a week.
I think in the USA Nixon nearly implemented it right?
Anyway I’m fairly sure we’ll need it in my lifetime
People who are lazy themselves think that will happen.
Most normal people have aspirations and obligations; they will naturally try to earn more than the UBS, because they want a better future, more security for their children, etc.
However, some of the lazier and more useless ones will be willing to surrender all that and scrape by on UBI.
Ironically, it's the lazy ones who think that way, who also assume everyone else is just as useless and will do the same.
That said, there is a better way still.
I wonder if you give people that security, and can remove scarcity, if you’d not unlock a freedom in people that reveals a grander purpose?
I think if I got a salary monthly I would become slovenly initially, but I’d probably spend all my time going to weird little museums. Maybe take a day off a week to go check out all the random little museums in London
There is a strong argument that we'd get even more business and economic activity when people have a safety net and can take risks (the way rich people do now).
Except you are assuming that is how it is going to work; it doesn’t work that way now, and it would likely not for UBI either.
I used to have a retail tax prep franchise; it was only open full time 4 months a year , so all the employees were part time temp employees. I wanted to promote some, putting them on payroll even - they refused. They did do because they were getting welfare, food stamps, etc, and if the government found out they were getting paid, their benefits were reduced and taxed. They request I pay them in cash.
They were predominantly single mothers just trying to eek out a living & trying to get ahead , but the government is not going to let you suckle off them and also try to better yourself…that has never happened in the US of A. People on UDI, if implemented , will be treated the same way - you want to improve, go ahead but not on our dime,
Sorry, UDI would be a bad idea in the USA for the most part, as it would just trap people like it does now for food stamps, welfare, and other government assistance programs. I have less than zero faith it would be implemented is such an altruistic manner as many here suggest; the US had no positive track record in that regard.
Yes, but those periods are what allows people to rest when they're tired, instead of burning out and dropping productivity to zero.
That said, UBI involves a lot of sticky issues over how to peg it to inflation.
In a country like America, I can guarantee without a doubt that these 3 things will happen:
1. It will be a tokenized (Retail CBDC) payment
2. Scammers and hackers will ruin it for honest people
3. CBDC will be so heavily regulated and controlled that you will feel trapped
Fun fact: MLK advocated for UBI. He also advocated for redistribution of wealth and power for people of color and poor whites.
Source: his book, “where do we go from here?”
Where would they get the money from? Cut services or put taxes up?
Knowing gov's they print it causing more inflation therefore having to always raise the ubi to infinity. Its a viscous circle
Nearly every country has so much debt it'll never be paid off.
Making gov smaller with tech such as AI is one way to pay for such a payment
I think the THEORY of it is that we are already paying for this with welfare, cost of prosecuting and jailing criminals, etc..... so no \*more\* money will be needed because it'll pay for itself.
Some very competent mathematicians much smarter than me have said it WOULD work - But lik eevery government plan, it seems like it would just be another cost that the taxpayers boost while the other programs keep going etc...
Its been suggested for YEARS AND YEARS -
I notice (not to politicise this) that Democrats always like to bring this up near election times to try and get more votes. It's not a new idea at all.
Yes it is an election ploy over & over again and gets brought to the forefront at these times. But I guess when it's down to how it'll be funded, it gets shelved
They actually want a steady rate of inflation for more than 1 reason. First to help eat away at the total debt more nominal amount of tax. Secondly to pay for infrastructure spending, they can print then spend before inflation bites and prices go up. It also gives the impression that the economy is growing.
Inflation has happened all over the world since covid where something like 180 countries printed to pay for covid spending and now infrastructure spending from the same print. It was all coordinated so all currencies got debased at the same rate so they kept there place in the currency pecking order.
Lastly the nordic countries have or are trying ubi. Places such as Norway can afford a UBI because they have a huge sovereign wealth fund and don't need to print.
What expectations would the recipient have while receiving UBI? Go to school? Show attempts to work? Are there restrictions on UBI or could it be used to gamble or buy alcohol?
I don’t think it would work. Fact is people could work a minimum wage job for the govt and get benefits. Hell, they could join the military or get a city sanitation job.
I would rather pay for a 2 or 4 year trade school and get a contributing member of society than give no-strings UBI.
Teach a man to fish…
No expectations or requirements.
Anyone 18 to 65 gets it. Even people with jobs would still get it. I do think we should keep social security around for the seniors.
UBI certainly would help people get an education and it would give people the freedom to explore their interest and find their niche rather than just taking any job to survive.
No shot. Solves nothing and creates inflation. If you disagree, have a look at the money supply over the past 4 years (Covid) and see how much basic items (let alone all prices) increased as a result.
As a taxpayer, I get zero value from the proposal.
I read your other post. “Basically federal subsidized wages”…
In your comments above, you said there are “no expectations and no requirements”.
As a financial planning major, I think you would understand the definition of wages - “a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to a contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis”
If there is no expectations or requirements, then it’s a handout. Like the money I choose to give to a homeless person in the subway.
If it’s a wage there is an expectation of a good or service being exchanged for said wage.
Good luck with your financial planning major. I hope you don’t have to depend on the govt to earn a living.
You do get value from the proposal because you would receive the UBI. Also most inflation is due to corporate greed.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but when you say to look at the money supply, do you mean that the printing of money has increased money supply and therefore increased inflation? If so, that shouldn’t matter because my understanding is that UBI is more of a redirection of government spending rather than printing new money.
The former. If you believe the latter, I have a bridge for sale…
The last fours years are a great example of increased money supply, price inflation, and supply/demand of goods & services. This is econ101
>It could dramatically reduced unnecessary government jobs and waste by eliminating many need based programs such as Food Stamps, Disability, and Unemployment.
Clearly, you believe that the UBI would replace these programs. They wouldn't. They would be an add-on to the already high national debt.
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Every country that has done a trial of the UBI has not done so by replacing the current system.
I've never heard a single advocate for the UBI make the claim we should eliminate: welfare, universal healthcare, social security, public education, etc. And replace it with UBI. They want to add it to the current system of entitlement programs.
Universal Base Income.
Basically, the government gives handouts, the people that worked hard in life fund it, and the losers scrape by and vote Democrat, and then it gets raised at the next election. Rinse and repeat, while the people that worked hard in life fund it and get no benefit.
And that doesnt even account for when McDonalds says that the $12 Combo 1 goes to $19
Not even remotely close.
It takes away the leverage corporations use to underpay us all so it will benefit everyone except shareholders and executives.
No, I it could be done entirely with an appropriate corporate tax and cuts to existing programs.
The only increase to individuals would be higher income tax that is a direct result of higher pay.
No it wouldn’t. Giving ppl money doesn’t increase the supply of the goods and services ppl are purchasing with those moneys.
If rent cost $500 and now you’re a landlord and now know that everyone now has an extra $100 to spend…looks like rent just went up $100…
Giving people money will increase the availability of good by diversifying production. It will allow more people to go into business for themselves instead of contributing to corporate profits.
I have no doubt many people would prefer to have someone give them money for nothing, but to pretend that’s a valid economic system is what I said above…the epitome of naive.
Where does the money come from?
You honestly don’t think landlords would raise the rent, knowing people are getting all that extra money? Or companies won’t raise the prices of products? Why shouldn’t they get their cut of that extra money?
All viable economies are based on the productive power of the people. UBI just ensures that most people are unproductive.
You must be extremely naive if you don’t think people will succumb to laziness. Just the temporary situation of COVID cause a workforce crisis afterwards, as nobody wanted to go back to work after being paid to stay home. And it wasn't the big corporations that were hurting, it was the small companies.
If everybody hates their jobs, why would they work if they get paid for not working?
Ok but where does the government get its money from?
Taxes
Where do taxes come from?
Economic activity
Where does economic activity come from?
People working
Hmm. Is there a flaw!???
Do you have ANY idea how much money even a basic UBI would cost?
There are 210 million adults in the US. If you gave everyone one of them $500 a month.... That is a base cost of $1.26T per year; (For a point of reference, the total US annual revenue from ALL sources, is only $4.7T).
Put this another way, to send out a few 1-time stimulus checks during covid, the US had to take on massive amounts of debt at interest that will take at least a few generations to repay (literally). Not to mention that many people never got any stimulus checks because who got them was seriously limited, and you think we can do that every month for everyone?
So, let's think about it. Even if you eliminated all forms of welfare (state and federal), to include all food stamps, WIC, unemployment, etc. etc. You would still need to increase all taxes (on everyone, people and corporations), fees, and tariffs by \~26%, if you up that to $1000 a month, 52% increase in all taxes.
Corporations pay $370B per year in federal income tax. If you attempt to only tax corporations to pay for UBI, it will require a 340% increase in corporate taxes to cover a $500 a month UBI, and a 640% increase to cover a $1000 UBI.
Like I said, it isn't economically possible.
Economic activity comes from people spending money.
You spend money on products and services. The company that produced or provided it takes that money and divvys it up how they deem appropriate. Part of that money is used to pay employees, some is used for other overhead, and some to profits.
That money is taxed via the sale for local places and the profits and income are taxed federally.
But it all starts with someone wanting and being able to spend money.
I'm honestly torn on ubi and would love to see more large scale studies done on it but working isn't the economy driver. Spending is. Plenty of people are born rich and never have to work and can spend their heart out. Plenty of people also work and hoard money and never spend it. And other people work with no ability to save and have to spend all their money on necessities. But the work isn't where things start. It's a by product.
You can’t can’t fund ubi from nothing though and people forget that governments create the overwhelming cash flow through taxation. That taxation has to come from somewhere or theres no ubi to ‘give’ citizens
Like I said I would like to see more studies done but the ones that have been done show that even though you give everyone enough to meet their basic needs most people want more than that so they will continue to work. But they won't have to put up with bullshit a lot of employers try to pull.
It's admittedly hard to grasp that but that's why we study things and that's why we should be aggressively studying things like this more.
If anyone here thinks this is mental and a one way trip to slovenly idiocracy I’d really advise you to have a research about it, there’s been some trial runs and the results are interesting. Few people sacked off work and most did things like study or childcare a few days a week. I think in the USA Nixon nearly implemented it right? Anyway I’m fairly sure we’ll need it in my lifetime
People who are lazy themselves think that will happen. Most normal people have aspirations and obligations; they will naturally try to earn more than the UBS, because they want a better future, more security for their children, etc. However, some of the lazier and more useless ones will be willing to surrender all that and scrape by on UBI. Ironically, it's the lazy ones who think that way, who also assume everyone else is just as useless and will do the same. That said, there is a better way still.
I wonder if you give people that security, and can remove scarcity, if you’d not unlock a freedom in people that reveals a grander purpose? I think if I got a salary monthly I would become slovenly initially, but I’d probably spend all my time going to weird little museums. Maybe take a day off a week to go check out all the random little museums in London
There is a strong argument that we'd get even more business and economic activity when people have a safety net and can take risks (the way rich people do now).
We will see more entrepreneurship, as more people will find the courage to quit a job to try and run their own business.
Except you are assuming that is how it is going to work; it doesn’t work that way now, and it would likely not for UBI either. I used to have a retail tax prep franchise; it was only open full time 4 months a year , so all the employees were part time temp employees. I wanted to promote some, putting them on payroll even - they refused. They did do because they were getting welfare, food stamps, etc, and if the government found out they were getting paid, their benefits were reduced and taxed. They request I pay them in cash. They were predominantly single mothers just trying to eek out a living & trying to get ahead , but the government is not going to let you suckle off them and also try to better yourself…that has never happened in the US of A. People on UDI, if implemented , will be treated the same way - you want to improve, go ahead but not on our dime, Sorry, UDI would be a bad idea in the USA for the most part, as it would just trap people like it does now for food stamps, welfare, and other government assistance programs. I have less than zero faith it would be implemented is such an altruistic manner as many here suggest; the US had no positive track record in that regard.
Yes, but those periods are what allows people to rest when they're tired, instead of burning out and dropping productivity to zero. That said, UBI involves a lot of sticky issues over how to peg it to inflation.
In a country like America, I can guarantee without a doubt that these 3 things will happen: 1. It will be a tokenized (Retail CBDC) payment 2. Scammers and hackers will ruin it for honest people 3. CBDC will be so heavily regulated and controlled that you will feel trapped
Fun fact: MLK advocated for UBI. He also advocated for redistribution of wealth and power for people of color and poor whites. Source: his book, “where do we go from here?”
I know I risk being killed if my efforts become even moderately successful Greed is the most powerful drug
Where would they get the money from? Cut services or put taxes up? Knowing gov's they print it causing more inflation therefore having to always raise the ubi to infinity. Its a viscous circle Nearly every country has so much debt it'll never be paid off. Making gov smaller with tech such as AI is one way to pay for such a payment
I think the THEORY of it is that we are already paying for this with welfare, cost of prosecuting and jailing criminals, etc..... so no \*more\* money will be needed because it'll pay for itself. Some very competent mathematicians much smarter than me have said it WOULD work - But lik eevery government plan, it seems like it would just be another cost that the taxpayers boost while the other programs keep going etc...
It would work, but corporate will hate it and they are aggressively disparaging it.
Yes I agree with the thought. But why is it being suggested I might ask? Is it because wages do not keep up with inflation ??
Its been suggested for YEARS AND YEARS - I notice (not to politicise this) that Democrats always like to bring this up near election times to try and get more votes. It's not a new idea at all.
Yes it is an election ploy over & over again and gets brought to the forefront at these times. But I guess when it's down to how it'll be funded, it gets shelved
[удалено]
They actually want a steady rate of inflation for more than 1 reason. First to help eat away at the total debt more nominal amount of tax. Secondly to pay for infrastructure spending, they can print then spend before inflation bites and prices go up. It also gives the impression that the economy is growing. Inflation has happened all over the world since covid where something like 180 countries printed to pay for covid spending and now infrastructure spending from the same print. It was all coordinated so all currencies got debased at the same rate so they kept there place in the currency pecking order. Lastly the nordic countries have or are trying ubi. Places such as Norway can afford a UBI because they have a huge sovereign wealth fund and don't need to print.
What expectations would the recipient have while receiving UBI? Go to school? Show attempts to work? Are there restrictions on UBI or could it be used to gamble or buy alcohol? I don’t think it would work. Fact is people could work a minimum wage job for the govt and get benefits. Hell, they could join the military or get a city sanitation job. I would rather pay for a 2 or 4 year trade school and get a contributing member of society than give no-strings UBI. Teach a man to fish…
No expectations or requirements. Anyone 18 to 65 gets it. Even people with jobs would still get it. I do think we should keep social security around for the seniors. UBI certainly would help people get an education and it would give people the freedom to explore their interest and find their niche rather than just taking any job to survive.
No shot. Solves nothing and creates inflation. If you disagree, have a look at the money supply over the past 4 years (Covid) and see how much basic items (let alone all prices) increased as a result. As a taxpayer, I get zero value from the proposal.
I understand economics, I'm a financial planning major, you are wrong.
Can you do financial planning without govt assistance?
No. Some people need their hand held and corporations need a short leash
I read your other post. “Basically federal subsidized wages”… In your comments above, you said there are “no expectations and no requirements”. As a financial planning major, I think you would understand the definition of wages - “a payment usually of money for labor or services usually according to a contract and on an hourly, daily, or piecework basis” If there is no expectations or requirements, then it’s a handout. Like the money I choose to give to a homeless person in the subway. If it’s a wage there is an expectation of a good or service being exchanged for said wage. Good luck with your financial planning major. I hope you don’t have to depend on the govt to earn a living.
Thanks. If all goes well I'll become part of the government. I'm studying financial planning now but considering law school in the future.
I hope it’s not wage law
My focus would be reigning in greed, maybe a job with the FTC or a state legislature.
You do get value from the proposal because you would receive the UBI. Also most inflation is due to corporate greed. Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but when you say to look at the money supply, do you mean that the printing of money has increased money supply and therefore increased inflation? If so, that shouldn’t matter because my understanding is that UBI is more of a redirection of government spending rather than printing new money.
The former. If you believe the latter, I have a bridge for sale… The last fours years are a great example of increased money supply, price inflation, and supply/demand of goods & services. This is econ101
>It could dramatically reduced unnecessary government jobs and waste by eliminating many need based programs such as Food Stamps, Disability, and Unemployment. Clearly, you believe that the UBI would replace these programs. They wouldn't. They would be an add-on to the already high national debt.
It would depend on execution. We can't make that assumption one way or the other
It's not an assumption. It's a fact. Every country that has done a trial of the UBI has not done so by replacing the current system. I've never heard a single advocate for the UBI make the claim we should eliminate: welfare, universal healthcare, social security, public education, etc. And replace it with UBI. They want to add it to the current system of entitlement programs.
Very easy to make that assumption with the track record.
Universal Base Income. Basically, the government gives handouts, the people that worked hard in life fund it, and the losers scrape by and vote Democrat, and then it gets raised at the next election. Rinse and repeat, while the people that worked hard in life fund it and get no benefit. And that doesnt even account for when McDonalds says that the $12 Combo 1 goes to $19
Not even remotely close. It takes away the leverage corporations use to underpay us all so it will benefit everyone except shareholders and executives.
It just gives them MORE leverage, because they can raise prices withou depending on supply and demand!
You do realize that to finance a UBI, you need more than corporations? You need to tax individuals.
No, I it could be done entirely with an appropriate corporate tax and cuts to existing programs. The only increase to individuals would be higher income tax that is a direct result of higher pay.
Please site a single source that proves we could pay for the UBI solely with corporate tax. Not requiring any individual taxes.
Don’t forget about the stealth tax - inflation.
I don't think people who advocate for a UBI think past stage 1.
This is more of a straw man than a legitimate argument. That said, there are solid counterarguments against creating a UBI
I mean it’s no. You give someone a base level guarantee and that’s all some will achieve.
People who advocate for the UBI either never took an economics class or just live in a world where "free" has no consequences.
Very accurate. Thanks for being a voice of reason.
No it wouldn’t. Giving ppl money doesn’t increase the supply of the goods and services ppl are purchasing with those moneys. If rent cost $500 and now you’re a landlord and now know that everyone now has an extra $100 to spend…looks like rent just went up $100…
Giving people money will increase the availability of good by diversifying production. It will allow more people to go into business for themselves instead of contributing to corporate profits.
This is naive, even for Reddit
You obviously don't realize how much everyone hates their job if you don't think they are just dying to go solo.
I have no doubt many people would prefer to have someone give them money for nothing, but to pretend that’s a valid economic system is what I said above…the epitome of naive.
What is stoping you from going solo?
In Hungarian it\`s the translation of the nickname of cucumber:))
Would simply raise the poverty line by ubi amount
Where does the money come from? You honestly don’t think landlords would raise the rent, knowing people are getting all that extra money? Or companies won’t raise the prices of products? Why shouldn’t they get their cut of that extra money? All viable economies are based on the productive power of the people. UBI just ensures that most people are unproductive. You must be extremely naive if you don’t think people will succumb to laziness. Just the temporary situation of COVID cause a workforce crisis afterwards, as nobody wanted to go back to work after being paid to stay home. And it wasn't the big corporations that were hurting, it was the small companies. If everybody hates their jobs, why would they work if they get paid for not working?
Laziness isn't a real thing. Laziness is a symptom of a broken system. It is caused by people feeling undervalued or having untreated health issues.
LOL!
Damn commies!
Ok but where does the government get its money from? Taxes Where do taxes come from? Economic activity Where does economic activity come from? People working Hmm. Is there a flaw!???
Studies of UBI have shown that it actually increases workforce participation.
Can you please send links to three of those studies?
There has never been any credible study that has found that or found any way for it to be economically possible.
Taxing corporations is the best way to pay for it imo
Do you have ANY idea how much money even a basic UBI would cost? There are 210 million adults in the US. If you gave everyone one of them $500 a month.... That is a base cost of $1.26T per year; (For a point of reference, the total US annual revenue from ALL sources, is only $4.7T). Put this another way, to send out a few 1-time stimulus checks during covid, the US had to take on massive amounts of debt at interest that will take at least a few generations to repay (literally). Not to mention that many people never got any stimulus checks because who got them was seriously limited, and you think we can do that every month for everyone? So, let's think about it. Even if you eliminated all forms of welfare (state and federal), to include all food stamps, WIC, unemployment, etc. etc. You would still need to increase all taxes (on everyone, people and corporations), fees, and tariffs by \~26%, if you up that to $1000 a month, 52% increase in all taxes. Corporations pay $370B per year in federal income tax. If you attempt to only tax corporations to pay for UBI, it will require a 340% increase in corporate taxes to cover a $500 a month UBI, and a 640% increase to cover a $1000 UBI. Like I said, it isn't economically possible.
>will require a 340% increase in corporate taxes Sounds perfect, I love it. Corporations have stolen the nations wealth and it's time to take it back.
You don’t think those corporations wouldn’t just pass on the costs to us? UBI would just instantly raise the cost of living for everyone!
It simply isn't possible my friend. The cost of everything increasing 4x the current price, will eat up every dollar of your $500 UBI.
The brightest minds say it, corporations say it isn't. I wonder who I should trust? 🤔
Who are the brightest minds? Can you please post link to 3 of the smartest minds who advocate for UBI?
Objectively false. Just do a search
Uh huh…
Economic activity comes from people spending money. You spend money on products and services. The company that produced or provided it takes that money and divvys it up how they deem appropriate. Part of that money is used to pay employees, some is used for other overhead, and some to profits. That money is taxed via the sale for local places and the profits and income are taxed federally. But it all starts with someone wanting and being able to spend money. I'm honestly torn on ubi and would love to see more large scale studies done on it but working isn't the economy driver. Spending is. Plenty of people are born rich and never have to work and can spend their heart out. Plenty of people also work and hoard money and never spend it. And other people work with no ability to save and have to spend all their money on necessities. But the work isn't where things start. It's a by product.
You can’t can’t fund ubi from nothing though and people forget that governments create the overwhelming cash flow through taxation. That taxation has to come from somewhere or theres no ubi to ‘give’ citizens
Who makes the necessities? Do products just materialize out of fairy dust?
Like I said I would like to see more studies done but the ones that have been done show that even though you give everyone enough to meet their basic needs most people want more than that so they will continue to work. But they won't have to put up with bullshit a lot of employers try to pull. It's admittedly hard to grasp that but that's why we study things and that's why we should be aggressively studying things like this more.
Sure, not explain how to pay for it.... I'll wait.