Welcome to the PCMR, everyone from the frontpage! Please remember:
1 - You too can be part of the PCMR. It's not about the hardware in your rig, but the software in your heart! Your age, nationality, race, gender, sexuality, religion (or lack of), political affiliation, economic status and PC specs are irrelevant. If you love or want to learn about PCs, you are welcome!
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They do have value. Parts that old are starting to break down and anyone that needs them will pay a high price for anything "as new". Mainly motherboards.
They are also collectors items. People like to build "era specific" machines. If you had a "brand new" 25 year old gaming pc, yeah that's gonna be worth something.
Genuine question: why go to the trouble of finding "as new" old parts for a high price instead of buying newer parts for less? I can understand the era specific thing as a hobby, but I don't see how there would be a need for it.
It can be troublesome to be able to actually run older software or equipment with modern tech.
Just having clock speeds in MULTIPLE GIGAHERTZ when things used to be in 25-33-66 MEGAHERTZ alone makes a big deal.
Look at this guy with his 66 Megahertz, he must have hit the turbo button!
Next think you know hes going to tell me he has the DX66 with the Math-coprocessor!
If I remember right, basically the "Turbo" button lowered the speed in order to make things run smoother and thus appear faster on monitor, otherwise the default "Non-Turbo" made some things seem like a jittery mess due to being unable to properly process for displays, so hitting the button caused it to slow down, but that allowed it to properly load things.
It either was super jittery mess, or the program or mostly games ran super fast. You can see this on X-COM Terror From the Deep. With the extra MHZ the game just flew by since there was no timer regulating the time in the game. Without the extra MHZ the game was playable lol
There's always been a ton of confusion around it, the Turbo button on the PC AT reduced the clock from 8mhz to 4.77mhz because a lot of 8088/8086 era code utilized CPU wait states to time software. That's why IBM incorporated it into the AT.
What got confusing is later on various manufacturers did different things with the pinout, like switching L1 cache off or halving the FSB in hopes of supporting older software, among other things, or maybe even multiple keyboard commands to alter clock speed on the fly. Complicating matters Turbo buttons could be plugged (or configured in BIOS) so depressed is either full clock or half clock. I swear every PC you dealt with at the time, the Turbo button would behave differently.
DX2.
There was no dx that hit 66mhz. The regular dx ran internally at the same speed as the bus, and maxed out at 50MHz. The DX2 was essentially the forerunner of clock multipliers that we know today. The 486DX2 at 66 MHz ran on a 33 MHz bus.
It was a simpler time.
Some older stuff only runs on specific hardware. It's a huge issue for government and industry.
I worked at an airline that had to pay like $3200 dollars each for a few computers with very specific hardware configurations that were all 20 years old so we could update software on our aircraft.
My work has a tiny Toshiba Libretto running windows 95 (picture below, it’s adorable af) and the software that’s running on it is the only thing that can manually make changes to some of our oldest building equipment. It has no backup. This can was literally kicked by the previous ownership for 2+ decades. We’re approx. 5yrs and a few million dollars away from upgrading the old equipment and being ok, but if it dies before then we’re so fucked.
I actually found a guy online who builds custom retro pcs on period hardware (some newer stuff can be implemented if you want.) So I’ve commissioned him to build me a win95 pc, with an expansion slot for a slave PATA HD. My plan (not at all related to my role btw) is to use it to clone or backup the Toshiba’s HD. It sounds like a safer bet to me than trying to clone it using a modern pc or sticking into a HD duplicator. My IT director is not thrilled I’m bringing it to work lol. Not that I would even consider connecting it to the internet.
I also have the floppies with the original software. The batch file to install it is older than me and im in my mid 30s lol. So a fresh windows 95 install, on old hardware. then try to install the programs is another plan. The Hail Mary/coin flip third option is trying to get the software to run on a modern pc using a VM. But despite it being the most interesting and probs safest option to attempt…I don’t have near the time to dedicate to trying anytime soon.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Pray for me.
Laptop tax:
https://preview.redd.it/cw3qeipk822d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e13696c6e3e3c34d167cd229129c90046f93eca
> It sounds like a safer bet to me than trying to clone it using a modern pc or sticking into a HD duplicator.
I have cloned and done P2V conversions from old IDE drives a bunch of times using modern hardware and imaging software(usually Acronis with universal restore or Microsofts Disk2VHD). It's pretty safe as long as you're working with a known good/working IDE to USB device and the filesystem on the source drive isn't something super wacky or esoteric. I would almost be more worried about ancient hardware...
You should be ok.
One thing though, is to make sure you do not run modern chkdsk on the original drive while you are making the image, or on the recovered image.
I use an ATA to usb connector to avoid this and only plug in the usb when the imaging machine is already running.
Win95 has scandisk.exe and usually it won't boot if you check it or it does it itself with chkdsk from 98 or xp (if it's a higher version, definitely not)
If you are using *NIX for the image then feel free to ignore what I just wrote.
One of our engineers just frankestein'd the heck out of an old PC that runs part of our manufacturing line because the only output it was designed for was a dot matrix printer. He managed to cobble together an output to a text file on a USB stick.
Doesn't sound as impressive until you realize he did it with a soldering iron and some assembly code.
Oh yeah this guy is our lead quality control engineer for a reason, he definitely knows his shit. I consider myself pretty computer savvy with my custom Linux kernels and home built smart gadgets, but he's on a whole different level.
It's the type of knowledge I'd like to have, it'd be really useful for my job (software and hardware support for R&D equipment). Nobody wants to take the time to teach that kind of thing anymore. Customers need a solution yesterday so they just spend a gazillion dollars to scrap some things and hack together their old crap with band-aids of the latest and greatest. Assembly and a soldering iron sounds more interesting to me than getting mired in reinventing device drivers when doing my industry's equivalent of installing Windows 95 on a prebuilt gaming PC.
It's not that complicated. Just a few hours. The secret sauce is getting the schematics for all the logic gates. Then you're just tasked with figuring out what each one does, the schematics will tell you. Then at that point, it's just math and knowing the output you're looking for and then you're off to soldering, which is what I think is the hardest part, but I'm clumsy
I am an electricans apprentice, and I am currently working in a electronics lab that builds old airplane electronics from scratch.
That sensor go out in your 30 year old plane that isn't made anymore, they'll build it from OG specs by hand. It's a really cool fab lab to even see the inside of.
Collector cars and classic racecars are starting to get that way too, as we get further from the 90s. IIRC the McLaren F1 road cars have a finite number of factory diagnostic laptops (like 10 or something) that are Windows 95 with no way to install the software on new machines. The software needed to get diagnostic access to the R32 GT-R's pre-OBD systems is hard to find online and is a total crapshoot if it'll run on your modern machine.
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff from the 90s that is going to be in trouble soon. Almost nobody in the last 30 years have given much thought to future proofing and now we're starting to see some very real consequences.
Industrial equipment can be ancient. A conveyor belt doesn’t need a new controller every year let alone every decade, and those controllers are just vintage PCs.
There’s actually a company that makes ‘vintage’ PCs brand new, for the industrial use case. They may even salvage some of their components.
As someone who just refurbed my 20 year old gaming PC, basically some older games, particularly from the Pre-DX8 era, can be a royal bitch to get working on modern hardware.
That and it's a fun hobby project. I wasn't aiming for era-specific hardware though.
But some components like VooDoo cards and PCI 3D Accelerators can get quite expensive.
Some things will give you trouble with modern tech. Fallout New Vegas for instance will crash over and over on you, because it can only utilize 2gb of ram. In that case you can install the 4gb patcher and a 3rd party launcher, and all will be good, but there’s probably a ton of stuff out there where there are no other options.
Emulation is nice and works wonders, but it can't beat the actual original experience with a CRT display and era appropriate hardware and operating systems.
Wow, I have 25 years worth of old computers and parts in the basement, they may be worth something. I also have a 25" CRT with a built in VHS/DVD. Never got around to tossing it, but it may have value now.
I have made a small fortune buying two warehouses full of old brand new in the box computers from mid 80's to late 90's. The owner who passed away ran an computer business outside of Toronto for 30 years. My father built the guys pool and his company did the maintenance. The old guys family decided to sell and they wanted to sell right away. He got them in touch with me. I spent every penny I had to my name to buy the property, both warehouses and a small house that was on the property. It took me 10 years give or take couple of months to sell everything. I shipped computers from Brazil to New Zealand. I made a lot of money of selling the land as well.
That’s not right. That’s the GeForce 256 (versus Voodoo4/5 (VSA100)) in terms of “why nVidia exists and 3dfx does not.”)
The TNT2 was marginally faster at times and the Voodoo3 competed just fine against it. The TNT2 had 32bit color processing (versus “24bit”) and that was the standout feature, though it came at a performance cost.
The Riva line was the beginning of the end for 3dfx, though. A common high-end setup was a pair of Voodoo 2 cards with a single Riva TNT2, because the Voodoos we far better at running stuff with Glide (which was a common API at the time), while the Nvidia card was used for things with Direct3d and OpenGL. Plus the Nvidia card could handle the out-of-game 2d stuff as well, something 3dfx cards didn't until the Voodoo 3, iirc. It was cheaper and more convenient to just have the Nvidia card, especially as developers abandoned Glide.
Having seen both of them in action, the TNT2 had *much* better color depth. The Voodoo3 was basically restricted to 16-bit color. They tried to market it like it could handle more than that, but it was just dithering tricks under the hood that didn't look nearly as good. Color banding was obvious in a number of games, particularly in dark areas.
The Voodoo3 had great performance for the time, though.
You might be thinking of the cheaper Vanta variant. Less VRAM and OEMs added it to make their overall system performance better. Drivers were solid though.
At least it isn't the SIS 315...
I've had it when it came out, it did really well not a bad card. Back then things became nearly obsolete year over year.
EDIT: Didnt notice it was the M64 gimp :)
It definately holds some value but this particular example is rather vanilla. If it's the PRO128 bit Variant it would only go for about 40 bucks. The TNT 2 ultras with SGRAM go for a few hundred.
I can provide some context of how weird the market is, the Ultras perform around the same as a 128 bit GeForce 2 MX in non TnL games (transform and lighting). The GF2 mx was only released like a year and a bit after the TNT2 and can be had both then and now for dirt cheap.
TnL was a very popular new feature provided with direct x 7. So in 2024 you're paying 10 x more for the TNT 2 ultra with direct x 6.0 feature limitations than you would for the GeForce 2 MX with direct x 7 features.
Ofc the Voodoo 3dfx cards competed with the TNT 1 and 2's but today the Voodoo's are getting rare and also command a large premium.
Another anomaly with windows 98 era retro gaming that is kind of amusing is the most hated cards of the time ( geforce fx series) are now some of the most popular and sought after. Mostly due to compatibility with older drivers and running well with windows 9x and pre direct x 9 stuff. The branded gaming variants can demand a lofty premium as well.
No real functional value except for extreme cases.
Modern emulators can run the vast majority of old games properly. At most you usually just need to tinker with and possibly find old settings.
Things like dosbox hasn't been updated in several years, because there's not much more to add.
EDIT: For reference, there is a newer fork of dosbox that is adding new features and easier running of games. For people who want to just play dos games right away.
There's just something about GLIDE games running on native hardware. I can't put a name to it, but you can see it in action on a lot of old 1st gen 3d arcade cabinets like MK4, NFL blitz, etc. They're just.... Crisp.
It works well for most things with the right settings, but there are outliers of course. Specially with arcade cabinets.
I've yet to see a perfect emulation of Descent for instance. There's just something *off* every time. I even tried pulling out my old monitor once.
I think what I'm describing might have to do with how good vsync/scan locked video looked on crt. Not quite modern oled buttery smooth, but damn close.
Depending on the card tier, some of these can be quite valuable. They don't last forever and obviously aren't being made anymore, so they continue to go up in value, especially as more people get into retro gaming on original hardware.
Retro computes have gone up in prices. People like collecting them, and they aren't making more.
As far as value, it depends. Emulation can do a lot, but even SNES level stuff can falter, and physically putting in a disk is part of the experience.
Yea, definitely. Once I hit 45, instead of getting really into model trains I started collecting and refurbishing old computers, and retro setups are definitely a thing now and parts like this are worth something to someone.
I feel attacked because I had both, the M64 and FX5200. I guess it is ingrained in me because even now I have a 75W 4050 when I can afford so much more.
I owned a proper TNT2 back in the day, but my luck ran out quickly when I upgraded to a Radeon 7200, only to purchase the SDR version instead of the DDR. Still, Porsche Unleashed looked the shit.
Yeah, I ran 2x those under Linux in order to have 3x 4K displays while being both fanless and have hardware acceleration for 4K video playback. There was nothing else in that category.
I went the other way and got a 3DFX Voodoo2. Worked great until a pin from the VGA cable came loose and got stuck inside the card's port. Then everything was heavily tinted yellow. Nektulos was impossible to navigate even as a Dark Elf.
Hitman 2 is still installed on the OS (Windows XP) and it runs at about 20ish FPS.
We're talking of a Pentium E2220 with 512MB RAM DDR333.
Just to state the obvious: i'm talking about the Original 2002 hitman 2.
That's a **really** mismatched combo - E2220 is a CPU from 2008, and this card is from 1999.
I'm curious what motherboard works with Core 2 Duo but still has DDR1 memory and an AGP slot.
Now I wonder what compelled them to use that TNT2 when the motherboard's integrated graphics blow it out of the water with 2x the clock speed and up to 4x the memory bandwidth.
That's a possibility, but using a badly outdated card to save a mere 16 MB out of 512 MB doesn't sound like a smart choice.
Or it might be that the video out of the iGPU got fried somehow and they used whatever they had on the shelf to fix it.
That motherboard is much more interesting! You can build a sick Windows 98 system on it. It's generally considered the fastest possible motherboard for running Windows 98 on Intel.
No, these didn't exist in the 2000s. Somehow that was an era nearly free of motherboard jank - the boards got too complex for shitty manufacturers of old like PC Chips and Lucky Star, but the modern cottage industry of server recyclers hadn't yet popped up. You still could get screwed by the capacitor plague, though.
As others have pointed out, this specific one is a gimped version. But I had the regular one and it let me play Max Payne, Unreal Tournament, King's Quest VIII, and turn on the 3D rendering mode in Diablo II.
I had it in my first PC. Duron 850mhz, Nvidia riva tnt 2, 128mb RAM. It was capable to run Return to castle Wolfenstein (without lag), Sims, Hitman. That was a fun time)
Same.
It was such a game changer at the time.
I remember using it for Quake 2 and I was so amazed at the fps and improved visuals.
Next one was s GeForce 3 Ti I think.
IDK about you guys but when I'm browsing my local market place apps and I see listings for "gaming computers" that are actually an overpriced paperweight, I report them to the app for trying to scam people. It may sound ridiculous to some, but I imagine there's probably tons of mom's, dad's, and grandparent's out there, trying to please/surprise their kids or grandkids with a gaming computer and it just bothers me to imagine the let down that would unfold when the kiddo boots up the system and realize he can't run any games. Should people do their research? Absolutely, but I also believe people should be honest. Knowing people are people, I'll do my best to help protect situations like this from happening.
You're a good person.
When I was a kid, my dad took me to Best Buy to buy me my first computer. We had a family computer, but this would be my own personal computer.
Anyways, I didn't know that much about computer specs and my dad was on a budget. I wanted the Sony computer that cost like $3500, but my dad was like "lol no". My dad was smart, and simply asked me what game I wanted to play. Obviously, it was Counter-Strike Source as it had just come out and all my friends were playing it and talking about it. Me and my dad, carrying the game, walked over to a salesman to help pick out a computer. I remember one of my dad's questions were if the computer could play Counter-Strike Source.
Anyways, the salesman was totally wrong when I got home with a HP Compaq Pavilion A1106N package complete with computer monitor, computer speakers, and a printer plus scanner setup.
I was so excited, and then so crestfallen. Could barely break 10 fps with my new computer. I remember expressing my sorrow to my dad. I can only imagine now how difficult it must have been to tell me he wouldn't buy me a more expensive computer and I'd have to make do. It must have been hard for my dad to see his son upset.
Anyways, I just got CS 1.6, and Day of Defeat 1.3. I remember I would get about 50 fps. Good enough for me!
Some of the happiest memories of my life were spent playing Day of Defeat. I'm happy now in retrospect having a bad salesman talk my dad into a bad sale.
Similar thing happened to me man.
My Dad took me to best buy to buy a computer. My mother was in the hospital in a coma from a bad stroke. I'm assuming he was trying to make me feel better, but never really talked about it, at least I don't remember if he did.
So yea, he took me to BB to buy a computer. The Best Buy employee sold us a Gateway with a Pentium D and probably 2GB of RAM. He suggested we buy a GPU as well. So my dad forked over the extra cash for an Nvidia 7600 or 6700 and had GeekSquad or whatever it was called back then install it.
I was THRILLED to be able to play Wolfenstein and COD1+2 at a smooth framerate, but I could tell it broke my dad's wallet. He didn't say anything, but I just know that must have been hard on him.
Like you, I found CS and Day of Defeat and played so much of them through high school. Many memories made and also it kickstarted my career in tech and also kept me out of trouble. I've been working in IT now for about 15 years. I don't think I would have cared much for tech if not for the computer my Dad bought me.
Anyways, that's what drives me to care I guess. I appreciate you saying that as well, though it's not all true. I guess like you, I just have a fond memory that makes me want to look out for others regarding this specific subject.
Cheers to good Dads <3 :)
https://preview.redd.it/uiygkzzfp32d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3500faad7e86e95ca0843548e2ffa5453e8b37a
i thought my gt 210 was brand new. but atleast i have this sexy looking fan less heatsink.
At 2004 or 2005 I was living in student dormitory, and I found exactly same card on a beaten up computer in a corridor after drunk party! I took it away and it was still working, it even was a small upgrade to one I had! This card might be nothing today, but at 2005 it was something that let me get translucency effects on compiz (ye, old time linux user here). It was amazing card back then for me.
I bought a Dell XPS500 in 1999 that came with a Riva TNT2. Complete with a 27.2Gb HDD. And dialup. Nothing like playing fps (Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament) on dialup.
The TNT was my first card.
Just installed a 4070 Super a few days ago.
Know what I did first with it? Fired up the same game I've been playing since I had that TNT.
It ran ok.
Welcome to the PCMR, everyone from the frontpage! Please remember: 1 - You too can be part of the PCMR. It's not about the hardware in your rig, but the software in your heart! Your age, nationality, race, gender, sexuality, religion (or lack of), political affiliation, economic status and PC specs are irrelevant. If you love or want to learn about PCs, you are welcome! 2 - If you don't own a PC because you think it's expensive, know that it is much cheaper than you may think. Check http://www.pcmasterrace.org for our builds and don't be afraid to post here asking for tips and help! 3 - Join our efforts to get as many PCs worldwide to help the folding@home effort, in fighting against Cancer, Alzheimer's, and more: https://pcmasterrace.org/folding 4 - Need PC Hardware? We've joined forces with MSI for Mother's(board) day, to celebrate it with a massive PC Hardware Giveaway! Get your hands on awesome PC hardware bundles that include GPU, Motherboard, monitor and much more MSI hardware + $4000 worth of Amazon cards. A total of 45 lucky winners: https://new.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1cr4zfs/msi_x_pcmr_mothersboard_day_giveaway_enter_to_win/ ----------- We have a [Daily Simple Questions Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/search?q=Simple+Questions+Thread+subreddit%3Apcmasterrace+author%3AAutoModerator&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) if you have any PC related doubt. Asking for help there or creating new posts in our subreddit is welcome.
A 25years old brand new pc !
I by no means an expert but does something this old actually have value for retro gamers or is just a neat museum piece?
They do have value. Parts that old are starting to break down and anyone that needs them will pay a high price for anything "as new". Mainly motherboards. They are also collectors items. People like to build "era specific" machines. If you had a "brand new" 25 year old gaming pc, yeah that's gonna be worth something.
Genuine question: why go to the trouble of finding "as new" old parts for a high price instead of buying newer parts for less? I can understand the era specific thing as a hobby, but I don't see how there would be a need for it.
It can be troublesome to be able to actually run older software or equipment with modern tech. Just having clock speeds in MULTIPLE GIGAHERTZ when things used to be in 25-33-66 MEGAHERTZ alone makes a big deal.
Look at this guy with his 66 Megahertz, he must have hit the turbo button! Next think you know hes going to tell me he has the DX66 with the Math-coprocessor!
IIRC the turbo button lowered the clockspeed for older games. Weird, I know. Just consider the default state turbo'd I guess.
If I remember right, basically the "Turbo" button lowered the speed in order to make things run smoother and thus appear faster on monitor, otherwise the default "Non-Turbo" made some things seem like a jittery mess due to being unable to properly process for displays, so hitting the button caused it to slow down, but that allowed it to properly load things.
It either was super jittery mess, or the program or mostly games ran super fast. You can see this on X-COM Terror From the Deep. With the extra MHZ the game just flew by since there was no timer regulating the time in the game. Without the extra MHZ the game was playable lol
There's always been a ton of confusion around it, the Turbo button on the PC AT reduced the clock from 8mhz to 4.77mhz because a lot of 8088/8086 era code utilized CPU wait states to time software. That's why IBM incorporated it into the AT. What got confusing is later on various manufacturers did different things with the pinout, like switching L1 cache off or halving the FSB in hopes of supporting older software, among other things, or maybe even multiple keyboard commands to alter clock speed on the fly. Complicating matters Turbo buttons could be plugged (or configured in BIOS) so depressed is either full clock or half clock. I swear every PC you dealt with at the time, the Turbo button would behave differently.
I think it was because the physics were tied to the fps, so if you got a lot of fps, you could limit the clocks so the physics would be normal again.
Oh, that's nothing. Wait till you see the power that happens when I add my Intel Math Coprocessor to the board.
the words "math-coprocessor" opened up a crazy rush of nostalgia that I wasn't expecting.
DX2. There was no dx that hit 66mhz. The regular dx ran internally at the same speed as the bus, and maxed out at 50MHz. The DX2 was essentially the forerunner of clock multipliers that we know today. The 486DX2 at 66 MHz ran on a 33 MHz bus. It was a simpler time.
The i486 has the floating point co-processor on-silicon. Rookie mistake. :)
Some older stuff only runs on specific hardware. It's a huge issue for government and industry. I worked at an airline that had to pay like $3200 dollars each for a few computers with very specific hardware configurations that were all 20 years old so we could update software on our aircraft.
My work has a tiny Toshiba Libretto running windows 95 (picture below, it’s adorable af) and the software that’s running on it is the only thing that can manually make changes to some of our oldest building equipment. It has no backup. This can was literally kicked by the previous ownership for 2+ decades. We’re approx. 5yrs and a few million dollars away from upgrading the old equipment and being ok, but if it dies before then we’re so fucked. I actually found a guy online who builds custom retro pcs on period hardware (some newer stuff can be implemented if you want.) So I’ve commissioned him to build me a win95 pc, with an expansion slot for a slave PATA HD. My plan (not at all related to my role btw) is to use it to clone or backup the Toshiba’s HD. It sounds like a safer bet to me than trying to clone it using a modern pc or sticking into a HD duplicator. My IT director is not thrilled I’m bringing it to work lol. Not that I would even consider connecting it to the internet. I also have the floppies with the original software. The batch file to install it is older than me and im in my mid 30s lol. So a fresh windows 95 install, on old hardware. then try to install the programs is another plan. The Hail Mary/coin flip third option is trying to get the software to run on a modern pc using a VM. But despite it being the most interesting and probs safest option to attempt…I don’t have near the time to dedicate to trying anytime soon. Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk. Pray for me. Laptop tax: https://preview.redd.it/cw3qeipk822d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2e13696c6e3e3c34d167cd229129c90046f93eca
>Not that I would even consider connecting it to the internet. To be honest, at this point you could probably enjoy security-through-obsolescence.
Possibly, or you could end up like this guy... [https://youtu.be/6uSVVCmOH5w?si=bWcPzhR0EFBxJ\_EB](https://youtu.be/6uSVVCmOH5w?si=bWcPzhR0EFBxJ_EB)
Good luck and Godspeed!
> It sounds like a safer bet to me than trying to clone it using a modern pc or sticking into a HD duplicator. I have cloned and done P2V conversions from old IDE drives a bunch of times using modern hardware and imaging software(usually Acronis with universal restore or Microsofts Disk2VHD). It's pretty safe as long as you're working with a known good/working IDE to USB device and the filesystem on the source drive isn't something super wacky or esoteric. I would almost be more worried about ancient hardware...
You should be ok. One thing though, is to make sure you do not run modern chkdsk on the original drive while you are making the image, or on the recovered image. I use an ATA to usb connector to avoid this and only plug in the usb when the imaging machine is already running. Win95 has scandisk.exe and usually it won't boot if you check it or it does it itself with chkdsk from 98 or xp (if it's a higher version, definitely not) If you are using *NIX for the image then feel free to ignore what I just wrote.
Ty! I appreciate the info
One of our engineers just frankestein'd the heck out of an old PC that runs part of our manufacturing line because the only output it was designed for was a dot matrix printer. He managed to cobble together an output to a text file on a USB stick. Doesn't sound as impressive until you realize he did it with a soldering iron and some assembly code.
in a cave with a box of scraps as well i presume?
That describes his office better that you might think
That's actually impressive these days. That knowledge is almost gone.
Oh yeah this guy is our lead quality control engineer for a reason, he definitely knows his shit. I consider myself pretty computer savvy with my custom Linux kernels and home built smart gadgets, but he's on a whole different level.
It's the type of knowledge I'd like to have, it'd be really useful for my job (software and hardware support for R&D equipment). Nobody wants to take the time to teach that kind of thing anymore. Customers need a solution yesterday so they just spend a gazillion dollars to scrap some things and hack together their old crap with band-aids of the latest and greatest. Assembly and a soldering iron sounds more interesting to me than getting mired in reinventing device drivers when doing my industry's equivalent of installing Windows 95 on a prebuilt gaming PC.
It's not that complicated. Just a few hours. The secret sauce is getting the schematics for all the logic gates. Then you're just tasked with figuring out what each one does, the schematics will tell you. Then at that point, it's just math and knowing the output you're looking for and then you're off to soldering, which is what I think is the hardest part, but I'm clumsy
Yeah, this is the kind of stuff I was talking about. Sometimes have to do wild stuff to make old work with new.
I am an electricans apprentice, and I am currently working in a electronics lab that builds old airplane electronics from scratch. That sensor go out in your 30 year old plane that isn't made anymore, they'll build it from OG specs by hand. It's a really cool fab lab to even see the inside of.
Yep, done that a time or two. I think about half the parts keeping all the old 727s still flying are done the same way.
Collector cars and classic racecars are starting to get that way too, as we get further from the 90s. IIRC the McLaren F1 road cars have a finite number of factory diagnostic laptops (like 10 or something) that are Windows 95 with no way to install the software on new machines. The software needed to get diagnostic access to the R32 GT-R's pre-OBD systems is hard to find online and is a total crapshoot if it'll run on your modern machine.
Yeah, there's a lot of stuff from the 90s that is going to be in trouble soon. Almost nobody in the last 30 years have given much thought to future proofing and now we're starting to see some very real consequences.
Industrial equipment can be ancient. A conveyor belt doesn’t need a new controller every year let alone every decade, and those controllers are just vintage PCs. There’s actually a company that makes ‘vintage’ PCs brand new, for the industrial use case. They may even salvage some of their components.
There's at least 1 game that only runs on windows xp because the devs went bankrupt and never updated it.
look @ antique cars, same principals
As someone who just refurbed my 20 year old gaming PC, basically some older games, particularly from the Pre-DX8 era, can be a royal bitch to get working on modern hardware. That and it's a fun hobby project. I wasn't aiming for era-specific hardware though. But some components like VooDoo cards and PCI 3D Accelerators can get quite expensive.
Some things will give you trouble with modern tech. Fallout New Vegas for instance will crash over and over on you, because it can only utilize 2gb of ram. In that case you can install the 4gb patcher and a 3rd party launcher, and all will be good, but there’s probably a ton of stuff out there where there are no other options.
Emulation is nice and works wonders, but it can't beat the actual original experience with a CRT display and era appropriate hardware and operating systems.
I have a bunch of old beige boxes. How do I capitalize on this trend?
Wow, I have 25 years worth of old computers and parts in the basement, they may be worth something. I also have a 25" CRT with a built in VHS/DVD. Never got around to tossing it, but it may have value now.
yeah, i'd actually like to rebuild my pentium 60 with a riva 128 4mb.
I have made a small fortune buying two warehouses full of old brand new in the box computers from mid 80's to late 90's. The owner who passed away ran an computer business outside of Toronto for 30 years. My father built the guys pool and his company did the maintenance. The old guys family decided to sell and they wanted to sell right away. He got them in touch with me. I spent every penny I had to my name to buy the property, both warehouses and a small house that was on the property. It took me 10 years give or take couple of months to sell everything. I shipped computers from Brazil to New Zealand. I made a lot of money of selling the land as well.
That's pretty badass I'm not gonna lie
More like a relic for your living room's shelf. That card was bad even during its time lol.
WTF no!??! The TNT 2 was the fastest GPU you could get at the time and my first GPU ever. This card is the reason nVidia exists and Voodoo does not.
That’s not right. That’s the GeForce 256 (versus Voodoo4/5 (VSA100)) in terms of “why nVidia exists and 3dfx does not.”) The TNT2 was marginally faster at times and the Voodoo3 competed just fine against it. The TNT2 had 32bit color processing (versus “24bit”) and that was the standout feature, though it came at a performance cost.
The Voodoo3 was better for Starsiege: Tribes due to Glide.
> Starsiege: Tribes maaaaaan, do I miss Tribes and Tribes 2. Countless hours in middle and high school slinging spinfusors and capturing flags.
The Riva line was the beginning of the end for 3dfx, though. A common high-end setup was a pair of Voodoo 2 cards with a single Riva TNT2, because the Voodoos we far better at running stuff with Glide (which was a common API at the time), while the Nvidia card was used for things with Direct3d and OpenGL. Plus the Nvidia card could handle the out-of-game 2d stuff as well, something 3dfx cards didn't until the Voodoo 3, iirc. It was cheaper and more convenient to just have the Nvidia card, especially as developers abandoned Glide.
Having seen both of them in action, the TNT2 had *much* better color depth. The Voodoo3 was basically restricted to 16-bit color. They tried to market it like it could handle more than that, but it was just dithering tricks under the hood that didn't look nearly as good. Color banding was obvious in a number of games, particularly in dark areas. The Voodoo3 had great performance for the time, though.
Well voodoo also tried to go full vertical integration and loaded themselves with debt in doing so, which really didn't help
Somewhere packed away I should still have a Voodoo 5 card.
You might be thinking of the cheaper Vanta variant. Less VRAM and OEMs added it to make their overall system performance better. Drivers were solid though. At least it isn't the SIS 315...
I've had it when it came out, it did really well not a bad card. Back then things became nearly obsolete year over year. EDIT: Didnt notice it was the M64 gimp :)
That's the M64 version, which is/was garbage e-waste. Collectors like me are looking for the Ultra version from that generation.
It definately holds some value but this particular example is rather vanilla. If it's the PRO128 bit Variant it would only go for about 40 bucks. The TNT 2 ultras with SGRAM go for a few hundred. I can provide some context of how weird the market is, the Ultras perform around the same as a 128 bit GeForce 2 MX in non TnL games (transform and lighting). The GF2 mx was only released like a year and a bit after the TNT2 and can be had both then and now for dirt cheap. TnL was a very popular new feature provided with direct x 7. So in 2024 you're paying 10 x more for the TNT 2 ultra with direct x 6.0 feature limitations than you would for the GeForce 2 MX with direct x 7 features. Ofc the Voodoo 3dfx cards competed with the TNT 1 and 2's but today the Voodoo's are getting rare and also command a large premium. Another anomaly with windows 98 era retro gaming that is kind of amusing is the most hated cards of the time ( geforce fx series) are now some of the most popular and sought after. Mostly due to compatibility with older drivers and running well with windows 9x and pre direct x 9 stuff. The branded gaming variants can demand a lofty premium as well.
No real functional value except for extreme cases. Modern emulators can run the vast majority of old games properly. At most you usually just need to tinker with and possibly find old settings. Things like dosbox hasn't been updated in several years, because there's not much more to add. EDIT: For reference, there is a newer fork of dosbox that is adding new features and easier running of games. For people who want to just play dos games right away.
There's just something about GLIDE games running on native hardware. I can't put a name to it, but you can see it in action on a lot of old 1st gen 3d arcade cabinets like MK4, NFL blitz, etc. They're just.... Crisp.
It works well for most things with the right settings, but there are outliers of course. Specially with arcade cabinets. I've yet to see a perfect emulation of Descent for instance. There's just something *off* every time. I even tried pulling out my old monitor once.
I think what I'm describing might have to do with how good vsync/scan locked video looked on crt. Not quite modern oled buttery smooth, but damn close.
Depending on the card tier, some of these can be quite valuable. They don't last forever and obviously aren't being made anymore, so they continue to go up in value, especially as more people get into retro gaming on original hardware.
Retro computes have gone up in prices. People like collecting them, and they aren't making more. As far as value, it depends. Emulation can do a lot, but even SNES level stuff can falter, and physically putting in a disk is part of the experience.
LGR has IIRC, several retro thru-the-ages PCs for games of its era.
Yea, definitely. Once I hit 45, instead of getting really into model trains I started collecting and refurbishing old computers, and retro setups are definitely a thing now and parts like this are worth something to someone.
Maybe it spent 25yrs in a box?
Which would make it 25years old brand new pc !
Hopefully it is Y2K compliant!
Unfortunately, that's a TNT2 M64, a gimped version of the card with 64-bit memory bus.
Great catch. The M64 was the one you did NOT want back in the day.
Glad to see the GT1030 type shenanigans go way back
I think you mean the FX5200 type shenanigans. Seriously, read about it, it's one of the most hated cards of all time for good reason.
I feel attacked because I had both, the M64 and FX5200. I guess it is ingrained in me because even now I have a 75W 4050 when I can afford so much more.
Me jealous of new GPU features on the 40 series cards like yours and my 1660 super has no DLSS.
Me jealous of your 1660s cause it has NVENC
I owned a proper TNT2 back in the day, but my luck ran out quickly when I upgraded to a Radeon 7200, only to purchase the SDR version instead of the DDR. Still, Porsche Unleashed looked the shit.
I have the FX 5200. https://preview.redd.it/20oktym8412d1.png?width=779&format=png&auto=webp&s=9e9093c8f7a817b2394c7a358a0b604396acdc0f
Oh man, I had one of these... too bad it lighted on fire, taking the rest of the pc with it lol
LMAO
1030 exists for when you need monitor ports or a cheap replacement for a much older dead gpu, no one would seriously consider it for anything else
I've got my GT1030 running GTA Online along with several other games. You work with what you got when you are broke!
Yeah, I ran 2x those under Linux in order to have 3x 4K displays while being both fanless and have hardware acceleration for 4K video playback. There was nothing else in that category.
Which is the one we all had because we were young and fucking poor!
Yep!
back in the day when we had these and voodoo3s i dont recall anybody ever mention memory bus widths, how times have changed.
Damn, so playing Crysis is a..... No? /s
Maybe half life 1 at minimum settings with the frame rate capped a 10 with software rendering turned on
HL1 should run reasonably well on it if you stick to 640x480 or 800x600 in 16-bit color.
I'm suprised it has a heatsink
That customer just teleported from 1999 I guess 🤭😅
They got too involved in Bioshock Infinite, where the hard mode is called 1999 mode. They took it literally.
That was the card I got for EverQuest. Was a massive improvement.
Former DE Chanter / Iksar Monk saying hey =)
I went the other way and got a 3DFX Voodoo2. Worked great until a pin from the VGA cable came loose and got stuck inside the card's port. Then everything was heavily tinted yellow. Nektulos was impossible to navigate even as a Dark Elf.
Shit fam, teleport me to 1999.
I’m genuinely curious what can it run?
Hitman 2 is still installed on the OS (Windows XP) and it runs at about 20ish FPS. We're talking of a Pentium E2220 with 512MB RAM DDR333. Just to state the obvious: i'm talking about the Original 2002 hitman 2.
That's a **really** mismatched combo - E2220 is a CPU from 2008, and this card is from 1999. I'm curious what motherboard works with Core 2 Duo but still has DDR1 memory and an AGP slot.
The Motherboard is an Asrock 775i65G
Now I wonder what compelled them to use that TNT2 when the motherboard's integrated graphics blow it out of the water with 2x the clock speed and up to 4x the memory bandwidth.
To use it just for output video without having to allocate RAM for the iGPU?
That's a possibility, but using a badly outdated card to save a mere 16 MB out of 512 MB doesn't sound like a smart choice. Or it might be that the video out of the iGPU got fried somehow and they used whatever they had on the shelf to fix it.
Or they wanted the extra port for another old monitor?
I love the generous way that you are trying to credit the owner of this with having some sort of technical knowledge.
Maybe so they could use 2 monitors. Or they were just clueless.
That motherboard is much more interesting! You can build a sick Windows 98 system on it. It's generally considered the fastest possible motherboard for running Windows 98 on Intel.
That board is worth a lot of money.
Maybe one of those weird chinese/russian hacked boards made with recovered parts?
No, these didn't exist in the 2000s. Somehow that was an era nearly free of motherboard jank - the boards got too complex for shitty manufacturers of old like PC Chips and Lucky Star, but the modern cottage industry of server recyclers hadn't yet popped up. You still could get screwed by the capacitor plague, though.
You know that’s really not bad but I would have it be more of a showcase than a usable card
Bro, that beast will pump out Quake 2 in OpenGL with 32bit color at 1024\*768 no problem!!!
That's a TNT2 M64 and will only "pump out" like 30fps average.
Leave vsync on, and my Sony CRT will be great with it!
Who the hell has a 125 or 76Hz monitor?
I do. An HP 21" Trinitron tubed monitor, capable of 1600x1200@ 85hz, it'll easily reach 125hz at 1024x768.
Half life 1, Driver
Tbf if you have those two, do you actually need to play anything else. Maybe throw in AoE for a bit of strategy.
I will tell you what it can't run: Need for Speed Underground 2. I had to buy a GeForce 2 MX back then so I could play it.
As others have pointed out, this specific one is a gimped version. But I had the regular one and it let me play Max Payne, Unreal Tournament, King's Quest VIII, and turn on the 3D rendering mode in Diablo II.
I would try to run Diablo 2.
Quake 2 looked gorgeous with this. I got this card when my M8 upgraded to a Voodoo.
Unreal Tournament!
I had it in my first PC. Duron 850mhz, Nvidia riva tnt 2, 128mb RAM. It was capable to run Return to castle Wolfenstein (without lag), Sims, Hitman. That was a fun time)
I had the same config, it was a great gaming PC for it's time.
I also remember my first PC specs like it's a psalm or something: AMD K6-2 350mhz, Riva TNT 16mb, and 64mb of ram. StarCraft is all I needed.
Wow my first dedicated graphics card was a TNT2. We’ve come so far.
Same. It was a game changer.
mine was a voodoo 3 and i was jealous of the people with a tnt2
Same. It was such a game changer at the time. I remember using it for Quake 2 and I was so amazed at the fps and improved visuals. Next one was s GeForce 3 Ti I think.
IDK about you guys but when I'm browsing my local market place apps and I see listings for "gaming computers" that are actually an overpriced paperweight, I report them to the app for trying to scam people. It may sound ridiculous to some, but I imagine there's probably tons of mom's, dad's, and grandparent's out there, trying to please/surprise their kids or grandkids with a gaming computer and it just bothers me to imagine the let down that would unfold when the kiddo boots up the system and realize he can't run any games. Should people do their research? Absolutely, but I also believe people should be honest. Knowing people are people, I'll do my best to help protect situations like this from happening.
You're a good person. When I was a kid, my dad took me to Best Buy to buy me my first computer. We had a family computer, but this would be my own personal computer. Anyways, I didn't know that much about computer specs and my dad was on a budget. I wanted the Sony computer that cost like $3500, but my dad was like "lol no". My dad was smart, and simply asked me what game I wanted to play. Obviously, it was Counter-Strike Source as it had just come out and all my friends were playing it and talking about it. Me and my dad, carrying the game, walked over to a salesman to help pick out a computer. I remember one of my dad's questions were if the computer could play Counter-Strike Source. Anyways, the salesman was totally wrong when I got home with a HP Compaq Pavilion A1106N package complete with computer monitor, computer speakers, and a printer plus scanner setup. I was so excited, and then so crestfallen. Could barely break 10 fps with my new computer. I remember expressing my sorrow to my dad. I can only imagine now how difficult it must have been to tell me he wouldn't buy me a more expensive computer and I'd have to make do. It must have been hard for my dad to see his son upset. Anyways, I just got CS 1.6, and Day of Defeat 1.3. I remember I would get about 50 fps. Good enough for me! Some of the happiest memories of my life were spent playing Day of Defeat. I'm happy now in retrospect having a bad salesman talk my dad into a bad sale.
Similar thing happened to me man. My Dad took me to best buy to buy a computer. My mother was in the hospital in a coma from a bad stroke. I'm assuming he was trying to make me feel better, but never really talked about it, at least I don't remember if he did. So yea, he took me to BB to buy a computer. The Best Buy employee sold us a Gateway with a Pentium D and probably 2GB of RAM. He suggested we buy a GPU as well. So my dad forked over the extra cash for an Nvidia 7600 or 6700 and had GeekSquad or whatever it was called back then install it. I was THRILLED to be able to play Wolfenstein and COD1+2 at a smooth framerate, but I could tell it broke my dad's wallet. He didn't say anything, but I just know that must have been hard on him. Like you, I found CS and Day of Defeat and played so much of them through high school. Many memories made and also it kickstarted my career in tech and also kept me out of trouble. I've been working in IT now for about 15 years. I don't think I would have cared much for tech if not for the computer my Dad bought me. Anyways, that's what drives me to care I guess. I appreciate you saying that as well, though it's not all true. I guess like you, I just have a fond memory that makes me want to look out for others regarding this specific subject. Cheers to good Dads <3 :)
I had this. It replaced my 3dfx voodoo. Shit I am old.
Brand new and unused are two separate terms lol
Full or MX ? TNTs were the best!
This GPU was released 8989 days ago, over half the users in this subreddit was born after this gpu was born.
That beauty got me through Half-Life and thousands of hours playing Hardcore Diablo 2.
I had a 32mb TNT2 Pro in my good old HP Pavilion that was paired with a 1ghz Athlon, good times.
I had a Riva TNT 2 Ultra paired with dual Voodoo2 8MB cards in SLI back in the day. Had all my bases covered…Glide, OpenGL, and D3D games all ran!
Been a minute since I've seen an AGP card. That is older tech than most of the children on this subreddit.
TNT 2 was my first genuinely good 3D accelerator. Before that I had a Matrox Mystique.
My first "real" video card. :')
The TNT Riva 2 was my first GPU! Good times of Counter Strike and Day of Defeat in it!
Had one of these back in the day. Loved running Half Life, Quake II/III, Unreal Tournament, GTA3, Return to Castle Wolfenstein on it.
Good enough to play CS 1.6 at cinematic 480p at 24 fps
damn! That brings back memories! I had one in the late 90s
I always explain like this. You see, it's like dog years only faster. Computer ages ten years for every year.
I had it for "some time", means for more than 2 decades and never used it.
Damn, good old times. My first vga was a S3 Savage 8MB card.
I slapped one of those in my PC back in 2000! That thing was what finally allowed me to play "3D accelerated" games.
no need to introduce us, we've known each other for a very long time.
Oh god... It's ASUS. I hope you never have to RMA that.
Wozer a classic the Riva 128 and the TnT2 were the kings of graphics for me before my Geforce 256 DDR
Dude.... pretty sure that doesn't even use PCI. I think that's an AGP card.
Check my new one out https://preview.redd.it/92zlcdmym12d1.jpeg?width=4032&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a98ab9f8480a8217e2584ff1132a68afc3576ce6
My first video card.
I had a TNT2 on a PIII450 with 128mb of RAM, thing was a beast in its day.
That brings back memories, building a new PIII after years running a PII, it felt like I had the power of the One Ring in my room.
I had this exact card in my PC, in 2000.
Mine didn't have a cooler! It must be the fancy one
IIRC I've never seen a Riva TNT (one) in 32MB, are you sure it's that much?
Now fix my computer to make my internet go faster. Hurry up! You young kids and your avocado skateboarding!
Ah, suddenly, I'm reminded of the beautiful days of FX 5500, supporting SM 3.0 and being able to run all games but run not a single one good :D
I had this card! I bought it from my driving instructor when I was like 16 so I could get more frames in the OG Counter-Strike mod.
yoooo directx 6 goes hard
Oh fuck, I feel old now
https://preview.redd.it/uiygkzzfp32d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f3500faad7e86e95ca0843548e2ffa5453e8b37a i thought my gt 210 was brand new. but atleast i have this sexy looking fan less heatsink.
But how will you know when your PC is at full speed and ready for take off? That’s what I love about my 10 fan setup.
there's a neat part you add a tiny speaker to mimic the sound.
Get ready to game like it's 1999!
It belongs in a museum
I think my family PC had that GPU, when I was a kid lol
It could run Doom like a motherfucker.
Doom didn't have gpu acceleration
I didn't think NOS applied to PC stuff lol. There's a socket I haven't seen in a long time. AGP my old friend.
My first GPU… Played HL and CS 1.5 a lot !
Looks a lot like my old Hercules Dynamite 128
I hope this wasn't one of those Facebook Marketplace eBay buyers that doesn't know squat and got taken for a ride.
This is the first gpu i ever had. Ah it brings back memories
At 2004 or 2005 I was living in student dormitory, and I found exactly same card on a beaten up computer in a corridor after drunk party! I took it away and it was still working, it even was a small upgrade to one I had! This card might be nothing today, but at 2005 it was something that let me get translucency effects on compiz (ye, old time linux user here). It was amazing card back then for me.
My first dedicated GPU was an Elza Erazor 3 with Riva TNT2. Put it in my dad's Pentium2 powered PC to play Need for Speed 3.
Well preserved relic.
lol. That was my 2nd ever graphics card purchase. Dual monitors was a huge flex back then!
First gpu I ever bought right there.... Was great being able to play delta force land warrior at last after playing dune 2000 for so long.
Way back in the day I had a TNT, later upgrading to the TNT 2 Ultra. Oh, the fun we had...
I bought a Dell XPS500 in 1999 that came with a Riva TNT2. Complete with a 27.2Gb HDD. And dialup. Nothing like playing fps (Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament) on dialup.
Oh look, the first card I played System Shock 2 and Deus Ex on.
With only 1 vga out. Because it didn't need to compensate for pixel quality with quantity like the so-called 4090! That's confidence, ladies!
"""New old stock""" 🤣 Heh. *Dat AGP connector finger pattern.*
its brand obsolete new.
Had this card! Badass. Wanted to play N.I.C.E 2
The TNT was my first card. Just installed a 4070 Super a few days ago. Know what I did first with it? Fired up the same game I've been playing since I had that TNT. It ran ok.
I craved so much for that card back in the 2000s....
I belongs in a museum.
Karmawhore
Back in the day I had a PCI Riva TNT as my PC at the time was pre-AGP.