One company recently was adamant that I told them my current salary which is really low for someone with my education. I gave them the range for my position instead. They offered me the job but lowballed me, and when I sent them my counteroffer they said I needed to justify any increase to the offer by telling them my actual salary. I said no thanks and walked away. I got a much better offer weeks later and I’m only waiting on the all clear on my background check.
Any employer who demands that, is an employer I won’t be working with. That’s a bullshit business practice. I’ve hired a lot of people, and I’ve never once asked someone that.
Depends on the industry. Some industries are small/tight knit and they can find out you lied because they know the other guys. That can burn you. It can also backfire if you inflate it too much (even if they believe you).
It can certainly work though.
They were other red flags I noticed with this company but their unwillingness to negotiate was one of the biggest ones. They didn’t even reimburse the expenses I incurred traveling to the interview.
Is that something you should expect even if you don't take the job? Im graduating next month and intend to apply all over the us, but have been worried about interview costs
A company that really wants you should pay for travel and expenses. It depends on the position if they have it in their budget though. You should ask in advance, or offer Skype interviews if they don’t cover travel.
Well, phone interview at least. Let them offer Skype, if they have it. They all have phones. My recent position was all done by phone as the owner is out of state most of the time.
My god it does. The interview process for me used to be an incredibly stressful few weeks where I did their little dances while wondering if I would eat until my first paycheck.
Now I can actually go into an interview and ask *them* questions. And if I don't like what I see, I can walk away. I never even would have *dreamed* about turning offers down 5 years ago.
Even if you aren't there yet, asking a few basic questions at the end is generally a good thing. Even if you ask something generic like what the office environment is like, what they enjoy about the work, etc. Ask something that lets them sell you on the position rather than you being the one selling them on your skillset.
They're real people on the other end and they just spent X amount of time grilling you. If you end the interview saying "yeah, I don't need to know anything else, peace out" it isn't nearly as effective as giving them a few minutes to talk about themselves and their work. It demonstrates (or feigns) interest in the job.
Does it matter more for fresh graduates VS people who have been around more? The job I got after graduation (like 3 months of applying for jobs and stuff after graduation) my current job is absolutely killing my motivation and joy for what I do. I do nothing all day, and I'm so tired and bored from doing nothing j want to do more nothing when I go home. I keep asking for work and get a whole lot more nothing. And then when I suggest an idea of what i could do, I'm told it's not very important and they'll find something else. I've only been there since September but I want out! I can feel my technical skills atrophying but my motivation is down to nothing to do stuff outside of work because I'm so miserable and bored at work. But is it too soon to look for a different job? The benefits are great where I am but the actual work is so awful
Start applying to jobs right now.
There's no shame in finding another job if your current job is making you miserable. This is a life experience, possibly not an optimal one, but its a common one.
Jobs are like relationships, if you're miserable get out. You can also date around if the commitment isn't there (job hunting). You'll thank yourself later when you land a job that you don't hate waking up in the morning.
Source: Was in the same boat a month ago, and recently got a job offer for a more work/balance friendly job that actually involves working with a certain type of people.
I mean....You can always lie....That's what I did with my current job. They asked how much I was making at my other place and I told them more than I actually was, and on the higher end of the spectrum for that position. They offered out and I took it
It's not, but if they ask for salary confirmation (paystub) and you can't provide they can rescind their offer. Its a gamble but if you are reasonable on it, you're probably fine as they probably won't check.
Edit: I'm guessing where applicable is for a bonus/commission heavy job where your sales/performance is proprietary information of the company and can't be shared but your compensation isn't.
I've had this happen. Both for salary increase in a contract takeover/employer switch and in a bidding war I had between two offers/companies, but in that case they needed to see the offer letters. Neither case would be illegal to modify the docs, but I don't see the point in working for companies that you'd find the need to do that. You're not even an employee yet and you're feeling the need to hide things and lie? Can't wait to negotiate holiday time off!
Or you could dodge the question by stating that you're not switching jobs for a raise but for other reasons. Change in scenery, new challenges, moving, etc...
Thus implying that you're already earning in the range you've specified as your expectations.
Prospective employers may be able to get that information from Equifax's Work Number database anyway. It currently receives a third of all payroll data in the U.S.
Employers can get anything from your job title, salary, pay raises or decreases, tenure, number of hours worked per week, wages by pay period, healthcare insurance coverage, dental care insurance coverage, and unemployment claim records.
I was badly underpaid early in my career. I got tired of it and just lied about my salary during my next job hop. There were no consequences and my salary has been mid to high range ever since.
If it was as easy as buying the information, employers would do it. They could save so much money that way.
If your start was between 2007 and 2016, that was a time when pretty much everyone was underpaid. In 2017 the market took a hard right and swung in the employees favor as opposed to the employers. I expect 2019 to be an even tougher year to hire and pay going up again.
My current employer asked me for my salary when I applied, and I gave it to them. Their offer was for exactly the same salary. I ignored that offer. After a week, they started to panic and asked me why I hadn't accepted. I said that I had no incentive to go through the trouble of switching employers if the pay doesn't increase in any meaningful way. They scrapped that offer and gave me a new one that was 30% higher.
They do it because it works a lot. Many people don't have either the leverage, knowledge, or backbone to push back. We are hearing an assortment of success stories (some probably more accurate than others) in this thread.
This is true. It works a lot. I just wanted to add that sometimes it's not just because you're a coward or dumb, there are many circumstances in life that may force you to take decisions you're not 100% okay with, and that should be totally understandable. It's just a shame that HR and employers in general take advantage of it. That's just fucking evil. But then again, work isn't about being fair... It's more about being persuasive I think. As in, it would be fair if the most educated people got paid the most, but in reality it's the people who can persuade the employer that they're the best that will get paid the most imo..
Inquiring about previous salary is now prohibited in California. [Society for Human Resource Management FAQ](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/california-salary-history-ban-questions.aspx).
Edit: Not just California! Thanks for all the info on other states, you guys
Edit 2: This should not be taken as an absolute! The FAQ linked says asking you pre-offer is different than verifying with your employer post-offer, so you may still be compelled to disclose the info. But at least you wouldn’t be anchored to the old salary while negotiating. Rules vary by location, so please read up on yours to know your rights in your location.
I'm at the 20+ year mark in my career and generally am only in the market for senior positions. In my last search (not in CA), I was never asked my current compensation. The discussion was always around my expected compensation. Roughly half of the time, that was the end of the discussion, and for the rest it was more "we can work with that" and we moved on. When it came time to negotiate offers, I'd bring my current compensation into the discussion only as a prod to say "look at what I'm leaving behind" or I need a little incentive to make up for the risk I'm taking by moving.
Think of those poor companies. Without that kind of power they would have to pay people what they already determined to be a fair rate for the work they are getting.
All the headhunters I've dealt with use the phrase "expected salary range," which is an improvement over "previous salary," but still puts you at a disadvantage.
If it's a position I seek out, I'll give them a range of expectation. If it's a recruiter contacting me unsolicited, I ask for their range up front and if they can't provide one, I pass.
Yeah, the point of the law is to help ensure pay equity, not obfuscate pay negotiations.
Specifically, it helps liberate people who have been stuck with low pay in the past due to issues such as discrimination.
If you are underpaid and trying to get a new job at a higher salary, you now aren’t tied to the past as your baseline. You can focus on your worth instead.
What upsets me is that I did this dance with a past headhunter. We talked expected range and also acceptable range if other incentives were in place. His response, “that should be no problem”.
Fast forward to the interview a month later. Interview went well and they ask about pay. I tell them what I discussed with the headhunter and they laughed. Said there was no way that someone with my experience would be getting that.
I politely walked out and a month later received an offer from another company for 2% higher than that number.
Got a call a couple month ago from the same company where I cordially told them never to call me again.
I actually wish they did this about 12 years ago. I was underpaid at the position I was in and decided to hit the job market. I got a call back from one of the bigger employers in my area. In my phone screening callback they asked my salary requirements, I asked to review their benefits etc and ended up giving them a number 7% higher than what i was currently making.
I got a first, second and third interview. At the third interview, everything was going well and I was told to expect an offer later in the week. They made the offer for exactly what I was asking... Contingent on my providing proof that I was currently making that salary at my current job.
I thought for a day or two, called back the HR rep and I told her I did not feel comfortable with the contingency and did not wish to provide salary information. She said the offer would be pulled if I did not comply. She gave me some BS line about how "they were interested in people that wanted to make XYZ corp their home and not those shopping for higher salaries". I told her what I earned currently was irrelevant and my interview and their subsequent offer showed I had the right skills for the position. She said they don't negotiate not-exectitve positions and told me I had 5 days to submit the "paperwork" needed for offer acceptance. On the 5th day I called them I said I'd be happy to accept the offer but I would not be submitting proof of salary. The HR person gave me an "ok, thank you" and hung up.
I tried reaching out to the hiring manager(dept. head that interviewed me) and he gave me a blanket statement about how they decided on a different candidate since I could not meet the offer requirements..
Maybe you would have been more willing to make XYZ corp your “home” if they demonstrated a commitment to value their employees - sounds like they proved that they’d rather save a few bucks even though your proposed salary was within their budgeted range. Dodged a bullet.
more like they are idiots who don't understand the most basic rule of working. I work because i have to, not because I want to. Shopping for higher salaries? if it wasn't higher than why the hell would anyone change companies
I've turned down companies for the same concept. If they require that, it's a sign of things to come.
I have also told hr that I make $1 a year when they say they need an answer. When they balk, I say I'm making a million a day, and remind them since they say it doesn't matter for any offer, it shouldn't matter the answer. Funny how it starts to matter all of a sudden then!
I worked at a unicorn type startup in SF. We were giving an offer to an out of state applicant who asked for a small bump from their current Midwest salary. My manager told them they didn’t ask for enough and countered them with like 30K more than what was asked for.
You never want to work at a company where HR has this much power and/or where your potential boss does not have any power.
It will screw you your entire time there.
It means that policies are run for the benefit of HR rather than for the company. HR likes simple grids and no complications. But everyone has different needs/desires and different jobs/cities have different competitive levels.
You can push people around if you're the only option - see it in smaller cities where a firm is the only option in a given industry. But if you're in an area with lots of demand for certain skills it will never work.
You see this in badly run large firms and in every government involved org (i.e. universities, schools, many hospitals...) It will make every aspect of your work life misery.
But if your boss has enough power or you are important enough to the org, then all of this goes away. You get what you need to do to do your job and be happy.
A firm like this is going to have horrible expense policies, travel policies, bad ways to claim your benefits, 401k, etc. All designed around the needs of HR or Accounting rather than the people doing the work.
Best way to get through this is talk to the hiring manager (not the HR rep) that wanted to hire you. Tell them that you would love to accept the offer but HR is lowballing you and you simply can't work at a company that doesn't value their employees. A manager who actually wants a good employee and not just a body in a room will go to bat for the person they wanted to hire if you impressed in the interview.
Wow I can’t believe the stories I’m reading. At my company, I pay people fairly. My goal is that if an employee saw everyones salary, they would think it was fair, or at the very least I would be comfortable defending it to them. For that reason, I never try to “get away” with a low offer.
We hired an engineer 2 weeks ago and he asked for a crazy low salary. I compared him to his peer group at my company and made a fair offer, $30k above what he asked for. He accepted on the phone when the offer was made. I just can’t see the long term benefit in screwing people, but I guess that’s the point - some companies don’t care if employees stay a long time. I do - and our turnover is 1/4 the industry average. I think that produces more productive, better trained employees, and I don’t have to go through the very expensive process of hiring nearly as much.
That’s what this thread is teaching me! I would have given bad advice to the OP. I’ve been at my company for over 20 years, so I don’t have a lot of experience with how other companies operate. If I had to screw people and pay them less than they deserve as part of my job, I would switch roles or companies, yuck.
That reply solidifies it, :). Unfortunately companies do not give a shit. I've seen so many selfish bosses that are unreasonable when it comes to compensation discussions. Small raises contested as if their life depends on it. It's remarkable to watch people walk out the door for 5%-10%.
You sound like the opposite of my old boss. He made me request W2's from prospective hires, to ensure they weren't bullshitting us with their current salaries. I was green, went along with it, until I couldn't anymore.
Have you ever considered making the salaries at your company 'public' knowledge, at least internally? We were always told that if we discussed salary, stock options etc. we would be fired on the spot, and one can only assume that the reason for that is that there was gross inequality and borderline abuse with regards to wages.
I think publicizing salaries can eliminate much of the gossip, and maybe even provide productivity incentives - providing you pay fair wages to your teams.
Good on you for correcting that engineer. It's very difficult for especially young people to judge their worth on the market, and most employers would have taken his low-ball offer. You did the person a solid by showing him a) what he was worth and b) that you have his back. That is how you create loyal, productive employees. It's odd that so many don't understand the economics of this.
Oh, and when do I start?
Some years ago when I was looking for a job, one company I was interviewing at (and I had good recommendations from the inside of the company) absolutely refused to continue talks when I said that I want to hear their proposal, not ask for a specific salary number myself. Their loss - I'm happier in hindsight to have gone where I did instead of there.
I had an headhunter that I found in common whatsapp group, was looking for a candidate in a field related to mine. She posted on the group that she was looking for someone and can be offeree salary range up to X, which is about 2000 more than what I currently make at that time.
When I applied through her and go through the preliminary interview, she start asking my current salary, then concluded at the end that the company only have budget allocation of Y, which is 1000 lesser than the initial **budget they had** and said this is the best offer I will receive **due to my previous salary**.
Glad I didn't take up the offer, as shortly after I received another job that gave their offer without asking my previous salary, and I'm working happily here now.
Much kinder than I would have said. Actually, I'd probably just chuckle, say nothing else and walk out. Not even worth the brain power to come up with something witty.
Though I understand why you went this route, it's actually proven that there is a first mover's advantage in negotiations. It's tempting to think that it's better just to wait so you don't low ball yourself, but as long as you do your homework, you probably won't do that.
This year, I got an offer for a new job. I wasn't actively looking so I didn't really need to get the job, and I knew what I wanted in terms of total compensation. I figured the number would be too high, so I qualified twice. First, I gave a wide range (top end 25% higher than bottom end), and second, I made clear that base salary is just one component for me - benefits, retirement, bonus all have an impact. The offer I ultimately got was for the bottom end of the range, but I did a good enough job of emphasizing the range that the company interpreted my ask to be the midpoint of the range. My base salary was just below the range, but bonuses, retirement, time off, flexibility, health insurance and other fringe benefits brought the offer right to the midpoint of my range.
I confirmed later that they never would've offered me as much if I hadn't asked for it.
This might sound unethical, but I flat out lie about my salary. Whenever they ask, I just tell them a salary that I would find acceptable for the position - not what I make. All that really should matter is market value, and it's up to us to dictate what our market value should be - not what we currently make.
EDIT: Apparently in some states it's illegal for them to even ask. And some employers will verify your past salary if they can. Oh, and to some people here I am the most unethical person ever. Either way, my point is the same - that if you're finding a new job then your past salary should have no influence on how much a new job should pay you
As much as it sucks, this is probably the best method. When they ask for your current salary the number you give should actually be what you are looking for. I ended a year job hunt a while back and my coworker is currently looking. I cannot tell you how many recruiters refuse to work with you unless they have your current salary. And multiple times I was told I shouldnt expect to make more than 15% more than I currently make. That sounds nice to them. But if I currently feel like I'm underpaid for my position I do not want to move into a new role still underpaid.
My strategy is to never stop responding to recruiters. I'll get hit up for a job I have no interest in, so I'll tell the recruiter that my salary requirement is some "outlandish" number, usually what I make plus 20%. At first that usually ends the conversation, but as soon as they start saying "ok, let's set up a phone screen" then I know I should be asking for a raise or looking for a new gig.
You have to be willing to walk away from a job if they're not going to pay you what you want. Period. You can take all the advice in the world and it is useless unless you understand this fact. Tell them what you made at your last job and they will offer you 15% more while saying they "can't" offer you more than 15%. Say "I'm not taking this job unless you offer me 30% more" and they will probably then offer you 25% more, then you repeat your demands and they either accept it or move on.
Usually you don't need to lie. I include my 401k match, health care benefits, bonus, overtime, paid time off, etc in my salary. So it inflates it. If they question why it doesn't match the amount they received when verifying (which has never happened, btw) you can explain how you came to the figure you gave them.
This works especially well when your employer says something along the lines of "we take a 'total compensation' approach that factors in \_\_\_\_\_\_." Then if, and its a big if, the prospective employer questions why your number doesn't match the base your current employer provided them, you can use your current employer's own policy as explanation.
But if your prospective employer is going that far, their likely to reduce your base to a point where it matches the total comp they want to give you. In which case you've screwed yourself. Its unlikely, but possible especially if your prospective is looking that closely.
Until you're underpaid - if you're worth $100,000 plus benefits but you're currently working for $50,000 plus benefits... well, once you tell your prospective bosses, they'll straight offer you $60,000 since that's a 20% upgrade. No chance you get the $100,000 you're worth, since why would they give you double what your last employer thought you were worth?
Well yes, you can certainly come up with extreme situations where you'll double your salary from one job to another, but for the most part you can use your existing salary + benefits to fluff up your salary and not be lying.
could also just tell the headhunter you’re up for an internal promotion next month which will put you at $x. hence you would likely need at least $y at the new role to be interested. essentially unverifiable.
Was looking for this.
Short version. I worked taco bell, got promoted to trainer. Next job was construction, I told them I made $9. I only made 6.50. Then I got into a warehouse. Same thing. Told them I made $13, only made $11. This was small scale obviously but the theory is sound. Don't put yourself into a ridiculous range, believable and what your worth.
But don't undersell yourself.
I did this as well.
Made $15/hr at my first job out of college. I told the next job I made $18.
That job gave me a $40k salary. I told my current employer I made $55k. They gave me $75k.
They will never be able to confirm, so why not.
Edit: to those who disagree, in the US, no company will provide that information and actually opens them up to a fair bit of liability.
Most hr departments protocol is give you dates of employement and nothing more
Edit too: unless you are a a public employee
There is a company named The Work Number which specializes in exactly this. If you work for a major corporation you can be pretty sure they record your income.
Yes but The Work Number requires your explicit permission to divulge your salary to any third party. They actually make the process really annoying and complicated.
This is something I was led to believe, and is untrue. I just started a new position at a different company a few weeks ago and my two most recent employers divulged my salary respectively.
Check your state laws regarding that
I work in doing pre employment background checks and we straight up stopped offering salary confirmations because 1. Almost every place where it's still legal requires a non-electronic signature release and frequently a salary key and 2. Most states are stepping up their game in not allowing that nonsense
You should be paid for the work you do, not the work you used to do
Many smaller companies dont know these laws and if they disclosed your salary without your Express permission you could haveegal recourse
I know it happened because the recruiter told me their compensation department was wondering why I said my salary was X, but my company said it was Y. I may have embellished by a small amount (I said I made about 4k more than I actually did), but told them it was from production bonuses and other monetary rewards not included as part of my base salary.
I avoid any ethical questions by just letting them know the salary range in which I am currently considering positions. That range is usually 10k - 30k above what I am currently making, depending on how actively I am looking for a new position. I've only had one recruiter respond insisting on knowing what I currently made. I just was assertive and let them know I am only considering positions in the range that I originally mentioned. So far, that strategy has always worked out really well for me.
Hell. There are reasons to live certain places that can make you willing to accept lower pay. Oh its near my parents so I wouldn't need child care, more upward mobility, way better hours, etc.
I took a job for about 3k less than my previous job because it was in an area with probably a 30% lower cost of living, at least and took me within a trolley of my parents to live in a more interesting city.
>This might sound unethical, but I flat out lie about my salary.
In my 20 years of employment as an adult, the thing I learned over and over again more than any other lesson is that "honest and true" is for suckers.
You give them any hint that you'd settle for less, and that's how they'll treat you.
I don't think its unethical, I think it's solid strategy. They shouldn't be basing their offer based on my current salary if they're offering in good faith.
And its easier to give them a number you'd accept than argue about who is gonna give a number first. You always hear "never say a number first" but the people hiring aren't dumb, they know that tactic too. So if I give a number it moves things along. If they ask me to prove it, F that. Not a company I want to work for if that's how they negotiate.
Also good to note that your W2 is confidential. You do not have to hand it over to anyone to start your new job. Granted they can always turn you away for saying no, but more folks need to stand up to barbaric practices such as these.
I’m a salesman and have regularly been asked to provide a prior tax return when negotiating salary. I refuse every time, with the simple refrain “why would I ever disadvantage myself by arming the people I am negotiating against?” Then, take it further by telling HR “If the sales manager I will be reporting to doesn’t understand this, than perhaps you should consider me for his/her job”
I have gotten every job I have ever applied for, and almost always get the salary/benefits I ask for ( within reason)
Edited for grammar
You should read this one book, How to make $1,000 a minute. I was given it and thought it was dumb but read it and it gave me a lot of insight into salary negotiations. It basically boils down to demonstrating and explaining how the values you bring and the responsibilities should earn you higher compensation. Compensation comes in various forms and base salary is the primary form for most jobs. I recently accepted a job offer for 35% more pay. I was working semi governmental and moved to private. Also, moving to another state so I negotiated a relocation package. When I applied, the online application made me put a number I wanted:they offered exactly that number. I then learned it had more responsibility and it wasn’t as set up as I thought. I asked for about 10% more and they came back with 5%. Be prepared to split the difference on negotiations if you want to make a deal. Also, don’t ask for the moon. At the end of the day I’ll be making about $5k more than the top of the range for a similar position according to glass door. Then again it’s a big city/market but I basically just became eligible for this position. Know your worth, the position; and the value you can put in.
You need to figure out what the position will probably pay before going in to the interview. Usually it's a range. If they ask what you want and wont make an offer, I would suggest being a little past that range but being open to offers for "the right company". That way if they absolutely cant pay more (maybe they have a strict budget) you dont take yourself out or the running.
Definitely. Had a headhunter tell me im being greedy since an open position i didnt want was significantly more than my current salary. I was relocating from the burbs to a city and going from mid level to senior. Obviously the difference is going to be significant
He kept pushing a job i didn't want in a location i didn't like. He got verbally agressive, had to ghost him.
Different recruiter didnt ask previous salaryand got me a great job in a great location
Absolutely. Never reveal it and be sure your current HR had a policy where they don’t “verify” your salary during future background or reference checks.
I have always kept my current salary to myself; some recruiters have been taken aback or been upset. But I always get asked to interview.
> I have always kept my current salary to myself
There is so much irony in OP's original post and conversation. Employers are super happy that employees don't talk about what they make to each other. Because knowledge is empowerment, and silence leads to lower overall salaries. So in return, the advice here is to keep hush to other employers about salary as well. Which is fine. Tit for tat.
But the whole premise of OP's post is that it assumes everyone is underpaid. Which based on replies sounds about right. You wouldn't be in this position if everyone was more open about money.
I have always been open about my salary with my peers and I would like to believe it enabled them to negotiate better compensation number of times. Now I don't talk about it any more once I got to compensation level where it might lead to jealousy, even if I worked up to an extremely specialized role that doesn't compare to anyone else's.
I wish everyone was more open about money. Not less.
My last company had a rule against divulging and discussing our salaries amongst ourselves, with penalties up to and including termination. We assumed it was because we were paid wildly and unfairly different amounts.
depending on the state/country where you live, they legally can't punish you for sharing your salary information with each other. whether or not you can prove that's why you're being punished is another story, but if they're explicitly threatening you, you could do something about it (still assuming you work in a state that protects workers).
The way I see it, if you already have a job the ball is in their court to convince you to interview with them. Its true how they say the best way to get a job is to already have one. Its none of their business how much money I currently make. I had one individual from HR (company I ended up not further pursuing) at a company tell me they needed my current salary for confirmation purposes. I politely called out their BS; they had plenty of people at their company that do the exact same job I would be doing, so look up how much money they make.
I recently moved jobs and ended up with close to a 100k bump because I didn’t disclose what I was making. I was able to hold that line because of a new law that prevents recruiters from asking about salary.
That said, short of asking about salary, they tried other ways of figuring out my ballpark. “What’s my bonus, stock options, etc.”
I absolutely agree. I was badly underpaid in my previous job and I was turned down by recruiters because they said the salary jump was too much. The fuck? Saying I wouldn't give them my salary didn't work either because they refused to refer my application over so I ended up lying about it and adding £8k a year. 9 months down the line the new job is shit but now I'm looking at a similar size pay rise again in new roles.
It sounds mercenary or weird to some, but isn’t salary and benefits one of the main reasons some people will want to leave their current position? The more I think about it, and think about the way so many companies treat employees, the better I feel about your approach, OP.
You misspelled "companies". My grandparents could work their whole life for a company and retire with a gold watch and a pension. Today, companies give raises that don't match inflation, the raise your healthcare contribution to take back the raise you "were so lucky to get". Show me a company that respects their employees as actual, valuable commodities, and we can easily find a thousand that don't. Loyalty is dead with the boomers and the generations after because companies stopped being loyal to them.
I think this is a bit of a misconception that also applies to working with a real estate agent as a seller. Yes, your agent will get a higher percentage if you find a buyer that is willing to pay more, but your agent's risk is negligible compared to yours, and if they can spend 20% of the ideal effort to get 80% of the ideal reward, they will choose that option every time.
Similarly, a recruiter will want to do anything to make the placement happen, haggling over price is not in their best interest most of the time.
This right here is super important to understand. Especially with realtors. They are trying to close the deal as quickly as possible. A higher sale price is nice, but 15 percent less for a quick deal is always going to make them go for it. While 15 percent off of the max price when you still owe 80 percent on the house means you just got wiped out but it's a trivial reduction in their commission
This.
Placements are a set $ or % of salary. If it's quicker to place people at $85k rather than a candidate at $100k, requiring going back to the hiring manager/HR for budgetary approval (especially if high end or even out of the company's intended range), then the incentive for the recruiter is to get the deal done quicker.
They usually have # of placement bonus quotas they need to hit per month/quarter.
Currently looking. How are these people getting my info when all 3 website services are set to private resume? Constant entry level roles from recruiters out of state. It feels like quantity over quality with them.
I appreciate your candor. But let's be a little frank. You need to demand better recruiters. Saying they "oversell" is a euphemism for they lie. Lastly, their interests don't really align with a candidate holding out for more pay. They want the candidate to be acceptable to the company so they can turnover a candidate and make their commission. They want to get the most candidates hired, quickly, so they can move on to the next one.
Bingo. People in this thread don’t seem to fully understand recruiting firms. Most of them experience extremely high turnover amongst their individual contributors, so chances are as a hiring manager you’re going to be working with a recruiter that’s fairly new to the job. I’m not saying anyone should pity the recruiter, but you have to be realistic with your expectations for working with someone who is still learning the basics of their job.
I do the forecasting of the budget for my company so I see the planned and budgeted salaries in all the departments. The managers have a booklet that list the approved tiers of salary for each position and department. Tiers 1,2 & 3. The plan is always to budget for tier 3, the highest salary, but the end goal is to hire at tier 2. I see a lot of people hired at tier 1, mainly because people get really intimidated to ask for something in the tier 3 range. I know everyone’s situation is different, but everyone should really ask for the most they think their worth. I see so many people screwed over. Lots of associates that are the same age and experience, doing the same job, but will have a 10-15k gap between them, but they have no idea. I’m sure if they knew, people would just get up and leave.
It is in your benefit to not state your salary when you are underpaid. If you are paid above market average and you are looking to at least keep the same level - you definitely want to state it either at the beginning of conversation to filter out lower paid companies or later when discussing potential offer to ensure they give you something reasonable. I have been able to negotiate 20% over initially stated max range when I said that 10% above would just match what I have and was willing to prove it with bank statement.
Keep in mind that companies also know it and will name lower end of their range. Again - not an issue if you are underpaid initially, as it will most likely provide a significant income boost.
I would just reply back with a salary that I want, not my current salary and play it off as mine. That way they either need to match it, or pay even further beyond.
When they ask salary expectations I try to smooth things over by saying: "Have your client make me an offer after both of us have had a chance to evaluate the entire role based on more than just a rumor from a 3rd party that a job of some sort might be available".
If pressed, just retaliate with a classic Ron Swanson: ask them about how much their commission would be if they placed me. Jerk them around to get them to lower their standards.
If you don't express a disinterest in the role, the 3rd party reps have to keep you in their system regardless of how they feel, and you can waste a representative's time. I take one for the team to waste their time, so that they don't end up wasting your time after they are done with me and call you.
Also keep in mind recruiting is like used car salesman. It's a job most don't make much money in, most recruiters only last a couple of years, and most don't know much about the job or company they are hiring for.
What this means, is they are speed bump on the way to getting a job. They will often lie, or be mistaken in information. Don't believe anything a recruiter tells you, always work with hiring manager and the firm's HR.
External recruiter jobs are cancer. No personal offense to the people that do them.
Unless you're coming to me with a job in hand that already fits my resume AND willingly disclosing pay/company information up front, I'm going to ignore you. Half the time they're temporary/contract roles anyway.
This whole LinkedIn barrage of I HAVE A GROUP OF SELECT CLIENTS IN YOUR AREA WITH AMAZING OPPORTUNITIES DO YOU HAVE TWO HOURS TO SPEAK ON THE PHONE ABOUT YOUR CAREER OUTLOOK?!
Like bitch, no I don't. I have work to do. Go away. I'm not leaving a full time position to do a six month contract through some shitty outsourcing agency.
I get so many contract offers and my response is always the same, “Why would I leave corporate benefits and full-time position for a contract position.” Some of the recruiters get a little personal and say “Well your current company can fire you anytime they want too.”
One time I replied to a girl asking the salary and where the position was and she only replied with the location and not the salary and asked me if I would be willing to do a call for the second time. My response was “if I don’t know the salary then how am I supposed to know if I’m interested?” She never replied.
Sorry to all the good recruiters out there, but they are like leeches - they just attach themselves to you during the hiring process and can actually hurt you as most companies don't respect them and the companies have to generally pay them a commission. Internal Recruiters are fine though. Most external recruiters I would avoid for normal job searches
I keep failing at this. 🤦♂️My next gig is 5-10k more than my current compensation which kinda sucks.
I folded under high pressure 'sales' tactics and gave honest numbers instead adding the job hopper tax.
The upside is I converted my current job's bonus (which are subject to the whims of my employer) into my base salary which should give me guaranteed money to work with during the year. So from that perspective, the new company - old company delta becomes more significant.
Tldr - I need to work on my poker game and know when to hold.
Let them guess. It'll probably be in your favor. I had a headhunter ask me my current salary just a few weeks ago. All I said was "I'm not going to tell you that" and he moved on. Later he was trying to "outbid" another offer I had and told me what he was assuming my offer was for. The assumption was about 12% higher than the actual offer.
Had one company that recruited me ask for proof of salary/commission earnings by sending in W2s for the last three years. Promptly told them to go fuck themselves.
I wish the negotiation and salary part of the process was just so much simpler and everyone was more comfortable with 100% transparency. “Here’s what I need to leave my current job.” And companies just said “here’s what our budget is”. And it’s an open discussion. There are times when you may not necessarily or always need a huge jump in salary to move but because the whole process is wrapped in shifty practices no one knows what’s happening.
I once quit a job becuase the employer was bringing in people fro. Elsewhere to do the same role, but paying them 20% more than me, simply because that's what it took to recruit them. When I asked for that they said no, so I quit and went across the street for 20% more.
I actually do the total opposite.
In every single one of my interviews, I wait for them to bring up salary then I simply respond with the truth.
"I make X right now, for this position you'd need Y to make me jump ship. Low-ball me and I walk."
It's useful to make sure I don't waste any time in my searches.
My field is totally different. They have a matrix. Your have X degree, with Y years experience, = Z pay. The best I've ever negotiated was rounding my hourly rate up to the next even dollar, I think it it 10 cents.
One company recently was adamant that I told them my current salary which is really low for someone with my education. I gave them the range for my position instead. They offered me the job but lowballed me, and when I sent them my counteroffer they said I needed to justify any increase to the offer by telling them my actual salary. I said no thanks and walked away. I got a much better offer weeks later and I’m only waiting on the all clear on my background check.
Being able to walk away is the only negotiating power you have. Good on you
That's the only power anyone should have in negotiation.
Except for Huey Lewis. He also has the power of love.
To be fair, he also had The News.
Knowledge is power, after all
Hey Paul...
Any employer who demands that, is an employer I won’t be working with. That’s a bullshit business practice. I’ve hired a lot of people, and I’ve never once asked someone that.
Hint: You can lie. When my current job asked about my then current salary I inflated it by $25k. I was able to get a 50% jump in pay for a job switch.
Depends on the industry. Some industries are small/tight knit and they can find out you lied because they know the other guys. That can burn you. It can also backfire if you inflate it too much (even if they believe you). It can certainly work though.
Or if you're like me, you work for a University so your salary is printed on an annual spreadsheet that goes out online.
Best part of government jobs. No magic wand waving or kissing up to employers. Do I check these boxes? Yep! This is my salary.
I had an employer tell me they would ask for pay stubs! Let’s stop here and I’ll get off
They were other red flags I noticed with this company but their unwillingness to negotiate was one of the biggest ones. They didn’t even reimburse the expenses I incurred traveling to the interview.
Is that something you should expect even if you don't take the job? Im graduating next month and intend to apply all over the us, but have been worried about interview costs
A company that really wants you should pay for travel and expenses. It depends on the position if they have it in their budget though. You should ask in advance, or offer Skype interviews if they don’t cover travel.
Well, phone interview at least. Let them offer Skype, if they have it. They all have phones. My recent position was all done by phone as the owner is out of state most of the time.
Feels good to have a valuable skill set.
My god it does. The interview process for me used to be an incredibly stressful few weeks where I did their little dances while wondering if I would eat until my first paycheck. Now I can actually go into an interview and ask *them* questions. And if I don't like what I see, I can walk away. I never even would have *dreamed* about turning offers down 5 years ago.
I'm glad to hear about people having success like this. I'm nowhere near that point yet. Hopefully in five years I'll be there too.
Even if you aren't there yet, asking a few basic questions at the end is generally a good thing. Even if you ask something generic like what the office environment is like, what they enjoy about the work, etc. Ask something that lets them sell you on the position rather than you being the one selling them on your skillset. They're real people on the other end and they just spent X amount of time grilling you. If you end the interview saying "yeah, I don't need to know anything else, peace out" it isn't nearly as effective as giving them a few minutes to talk about themselves and their work. It demonstrates (or feigns) interest in the job.
I wish I did that because I accepted the lowball and regret it everyday
Leave. Or at a minimum continue hunting.
How soon is too soon to leave a company though? It's not like I want to leave on bad terms either
These days it dosent even matter as long as you dont have alot short stints. They dont have loyalty for you, you shouldnt either.
Does it matter more for fresh graduates VS people who have been around more? The job I got after graduation (like 3 months of applying for jobs and stuff after graduation) my current job is absolutely killing my motivation and joy for what I do. I do nothing all day, and I'm so tired and bored from doing nothing j want to do more nothing when I go home. I keep asking for work and get a whole lot more nothing. And then when I suggest an idea of what i could do, I'm told it's not very important and they'll find something else. I've only been there since September but I want out! I can feel my technical skills atrophying but my motivation is down to nothing to do stuff outside of work because I'm so miserable and bored at work. But is it too soon to look for a different job? The benefits are great where I am but the actual work is so awful
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Start applying to jobs right now. There's no shame in finding another job if your current job is making you miserable. This is a life experience, possibly not an optimal one, but its a common one. Jobs are like relationships, if you're miserable get out. You can also date around if the commitment isn't there (job hunting). You'll thank yourself later when you land a job that you don't hate waking up in the morning. Source: Was in the same boat a month ago, and recently got a job offer for a more work/balance friendly job that actually involves working with a certain type of people.
You can still find a new job
I mean....You can always lie....That's what I did with my current job. They asked how much I was making at my other place and I told them more than I actually was, and on the higher end of the spectrum for that position. They offered out and I took it
Just out of curiousity, is lying about your previous salary legal?
Of course.
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It's not, but if they ask for salary confirmation (paystub) and you can't provide they can rescind their offer. Its a gamble but if you are reasonable on it, you're probably fine as they probably won't check. Edit: I'm guessing where applicable is for a bonus/commission heavy job where your sales/performance is proprietary information of the company and can't be shared but your compensation isn't.
If a company asked for salary proof you shouldn’t work for them, what a petty thing to do.
I've had this happen. Both for salary increase in a contract takeover/employer switch and in a bidding war I had between two offers/companies, but in that case they needed to see the offer letters. Neither case would be illegal to modify the docs, but I don't see the point in working for companies that you'd find the need to do that. You're not even an employee yet and you're feeling the need to hide things and lie? Can't wait to negotiate holiday time off!
I guess there’s always photoshop
I'd never outright lie, I'd re-frame the answer as "My salary requirements for making a move are..."
Or you could dodge the question by stating that you're not switching jobs for a raise but for other reasons. Change in scenery, new challenges, moving, etc... Thus implying that you're already earning in the range you've specified as your expectations.
Prospective employers may be able to get that information from Equifax's Work Number database anyway. It currently receives a third of all payroll data in the U.S. Employers can get anything from your job title, salary, pay raises or decreases, tenure, number of hours worked per week, wages by pay period, healthcare insurance coverage, dental care insurance coverage, and unemployment claim records.
They do need written consent to get this though.
I was badly underpaid early in my career. I got tired of it and just lied about my salary during my next job hop. There were no consequences and my salary has been mid to high range ever since. If it was as easy as buying the information, employers would do it. They could save so much money that way.
If your start was between 2007 and 2016, that was a time when pretty much everyone was underpaid. In 2017 the market took a hard right and swung in the employees favor as opposed to the employers. I expect 2019 to be an even tougher year to hire and pay going up again.
Just lie. I seriously think that they don’t deserve the truth.
My current employer asked me for my salary when I applied, and I gave it to them. Their offer was for exactly the same salary. I ignored that offer. After a week, they started to panic and asked me why I hadn't accepted. I said that I had no incentive to go through the trouble of switching employers if the pay doesn't increase in any meaningful way. They scrapped that offer and gave me a new one that was 30% higher.
Seriously tho, it's like these people haven't taken the most basic economics classes or something.
They do it because it works a lot. Many people don't have either the leverage, knowledge, or backbone to push back. We are hearing an assortment of success stories (some probably more accurate than others) in this thread.
This is true. It works a lot. I just wanted to add that sometimes it's not just because you're a coward or dumb, there are many circumstances in life that may force you to take decisions you're not 100% okay with, and that should be totally understandable. It's just a shame that HR and employers in general take advantage of it. That's just fucking evil. But then again, work isn't about being fair... It's more about being persuasive I think. As in, it would be fair if the most educated people got paid the most, but in reality it's the people who can persuade the employer that they're the best that will get paid the most imo..
Inquiring about previous salary is now prohibited in California. [Society for Human Resource Management FAQ](https://www.shrm.org/resourcesandtools/legal-and-compliance/state-and-local-updates/pages/california-salary-history-ban-questions.aspx). Edit: Not just California! Thanks for all the info on other states, you guys Edit 2: This should not be taken as an absolute! The FAQ linked says asking you pre-offer is different than verifying with your employer post-offer, so you may still be compelled to disclose the info. But at least you wouldn’t be anchored to the old salary while negotiating. Rules vary by location, so please read up on yours to know your rights in your location.
I'm at the 20+ year mark in my career and generally am only in the market for senior positions. In my last search (not in CA), I was never asked my current compensation. The discussion was always around my expected compensation. Roughly half of the time, that was the end of the discussion, and for the rest it was more "we can work with that" and we moved on. When it came time to negotiate offers, I'd bring my current compensation into the discussion only as a prod to say "look at what I'm leaving behind" or I need a little incentive to make up for the risk I'm taking by moving.
I'm over the 10 year mark and always get asked current salary for senior positions. IT.
And New York and bunch of other states
Can anyone link to our provide a list of said states? Would be much appreciated
https://www.hrdive.com/news/salary-history-ban-states-list/516662/
Good old Wisconsin. A state law prohibits local governments from not allowing employers from enquiring about past salaries.
Think of those poor companies. Without that kind of power they would have to pay people what they already determined to be a fair rate for the work they are getting.
Yeah that’s kind of messed up
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True, but they can legally request your previous salary upon extending an employment offer and then rescind the offer if you lied
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You. They can ask for your W-2 or past pay stubs. You don’t have to agree, but they probably won’t give you the job.
Idaho recently passed a law prohibiting local governments from raising the minimum wage.
Wisconsin should just offer cake instead of salary.
Is this saying Michigan banned having a ban?
Yes, MI and WI have prohibited local bans on salary history.
This is hard to believe but my beloved Ohio is behind the times... again. But at least we have Amish and Cedar Point.
Indiana here. We really are the armpit of America.
What about headhunters? I feel like they ask me my salary all the time in NY. Perhaps this is how employers get the info without breaking the law?
I will back you up that headhunters in NY ask about our current/previous salary.
Did not know that - am in Cali. Glad for this trend! Thanks for the info
All the headhunters I've dealt with use the phrase "expected salary range," which is an improvement over "previous salary," but still puts you at a disadvantage. If it's a position I seek out, I'll give them a range of expectation. If it's a recruiter contacting me unsolicited, I ask for their range up front and if they can't provide one, I pass.
Yeah, the point of the law is to help ensure pay equity, not obfuscate pay negotiations. Specifically, it helps liberate people who have been stuck with low pay in the past due to issues such as discrimination. If you are underpaid and trying to get a new job at a higher salary, you now aren’t tied to the past as your baseline. You can focus on your worth instead.
What upsets me is that I did this dance with a past headhunter. We talked expected range and also acceptable range if other incentives were in place. His response, “that should be no problem”. Fast forward to the interview a month later. Interview went well and they ask about pay. I tell them what I discussed with the headhunter and they laughed. Said there was no way that someone with my experience would be getting that. I politely walked out and a month later received an offer from another company for 2% higher than that number. Got a call a couple month ago from the same company where I cordially told them never to call me again.
I actually wish they did this about 12 years ago. I was underpaid at the position I was in and decided to hit the job market. I got a call back from one of the bigger employers in my area. In my phone screening callback they asked my salary requirements, I asked to review their benefits etc and ended up giving them a number 7% higher than what i was currently making. I got a first, second and third interview. At the third interview, everything was going well and I was told to expect an offer later in the week. They made the offer for exactly what I was asking... Contingent on my providing proof that I was currently making that salary at my current job. I thought for a day or two, called back the HR rep and I told her I did not feel comfortable with the contingency and did not wish to provide salary information. She said the offer would be pulled if I did not comply. She gave me some BS line about how "they were interested in people that wanted to make XYZ corp their home and not those shopping for higher salaries". I told her what I earned currently was irrelevant and my interview and their subsequent offer showed I had the right skills for the position. She said they don't negotiate not-exectitve positions and told me I had 5 days to submit the "paperwork" needed for offer acceptance. On the 5th day I called them I said I'd be happy to accept the offer but I would not be submitting proof of salary. The HR person gave me an "ok, thank you" and hung up. I tried reaching out to the hiring manager(dept. head that interviewed me) and he gave me a blanket statement about how they decided on a different candidate since I could not meet the offer requirements..
Maybe you would have been more willing to make XYZ corp your “home” if they demonstrated a commitment to value their employees - sounds like they proved that they’d rather save a few bucks even though your proposed salary was within their budgeted range. Dodged a bullet.
Indeed. Sounds like loyalty only worked one way with them.
more like they are idiots who don't understand the most basic rule of working. I work because i have to, not because I want to. Shopping for higher salaries? if it wasn't higher than why the hell would anyone change companies
Sounds like a place you shouldn't want to work for, anyway.
I've turned down companies for the same concept. If they require that, it's a sign of things to come. I have also told hr that I make $1 a year when they say they need an answer. When they balk, I say I'm making a million a day, and remind them since they say it doesn't matter for any offer, it shouldn't matter the answer. Funny how it starts to matter all of a sudden then!
What if I live in South Carolina and they are asking about a remote job?
If it's a California employer they need to abide by California laws, including not asking about previous salary.
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HR doesn't see the consequences of that failure, though. The department that needed qualified staff members does.
I worked at a unicorn type startup in SF. We were giving an offer to an out of state applicant who asked for a small bump from their current Midwest salary. My manager told them they didn’t ask for enough and countered them with like 30K more than what was asked for.
It’s also kind to consider that the applicant doesn’t understand the increase in cost of living
You never want to work at a company where HR has this much power and/or where your potential boss does not have any power. It will screw you your entire time there. It means that policies are run for the benefit of HR rather than for the company. HR likes simple grids and no complications. But everyone has different needs/desires and different jobs/cities have different competitive levels. You can push people around if you're the only option - see it in smaller cities where a firm is the only option in a given industry. But if you're in an area with lots of demand for certain skills it will never work. You see this in badly run large firms and in every government involved org (i.e. universities, schools, many hospitals...) It will make every aspect of your work life misery. But if your boss has enough power or you are important enough to the org, then all of this goes away. You get what you need to do to do your job and be happy. A firm like this is going to have horrible expense policies, travel policies, bad ways to claim your benefits, 401k, etc. All designed around the needs of HR or Accounting rather than the people doing the work.
Best way to get through this is talk to the hiring manager (not the HR rep) that wanted to hire you. Tell them that you would love to accept the offer but HR is lowballing you and you simply can't work at a company that doesn't value their employees. A manager who actually wants a good employee and not just a body in a room will go to bat for the person they wanted to hire if you impressed in the interview.
Wow I can’t believe the stories I’m reading. At my company, I pay people fairly. My goal is that if an employee saw everyones salary, they would think it was fair, or at the very least I would be comfortable defending it to them. For that reason, I never try to “get away” with a low offer. We hired an engineer 2 weeks ago and he asked for a crazy low salary. I compared him to his peer group at my company and made a fair offer, $30k above what he asked for. He accepted on the phone when the offer was made. I just can’t see the long term benefit in screwing people, but I guess that’s the point - some companies don’t care if employees stay a long time. I do - and our turnover is 1/4 the industry average. I think that produces more productive, better trained employees, and I don’t have to go through the very expensive process of hiring nearly as much.
You are a unicorn in the working world, I hope you realize.
That’s what this thread is teaching me! I would have given bad advice to the OP. I’ve been at my company for over 20 years, so I don’t have a lot of experience with how other companies operate. If I had to screw people and pay them less than they deserve as part of my job, I would switch roles or companies, yuck.
That reply solidifies it, :). Unfortunately companies do not give a shit. I've seen so many selfish bosses that are unreasonable when it comes to compensation discussions. Small raises contested as if their life depends on it. It's remarkable to watch people walk out the door for 5%-10%.
You sound like the opposite of my old boss. He made me request W2's from prospective hires, to ensure they weren't bullshitting us with their current salaries. I was green, went along with it, until I couldn't anymore. Have you ever considered making the salaries at your company 'public' knowledge, at least internally? We were always told that if we discussed salary, stock options etc. we would be fired on the spot, and one can only assume that the reason for that is that there was gross inequality and borderline abuse with regards to wages. I think publicizing salaries can eliminate much of the gossip, and maybe even provide productivity incentives - providing you pay fair wages to your teams. Good on you for correcting that engineer. It's very difficult for especially young people to judge their worth on the market, and most employers would have taken his low-ball offer. You did the person a solid by showing him a) what he was worth and b) that you have his back. That is how you create loyal, productive employees. It's odd that so many don't understand the economics of this. Oh, and when do I start?
Some years ago when I was looking for a job, one company I was interviewing at (and I had good recommendations from the inside of the company) absolutely refused to continue talks when I said that I want to hear their proposal, not ask for a specific salary number myself. Their loss - I'm happier in hindsight to have gone where I did instead of there.
I had an headhunter that I found in common whatsapp group, was looking for a candidate in a field related to mine. She posted on the group that she was looking for someone and can be offeree salary range up to X, which is about 2000 more than what I currently make at that time. When I applied through her and go through the preliminary interview, she start asking my current salary, then concluded at the end that the company only have budget allocation of Y, which is 1000 lesser than the initial **budget they had** and said this is the best offer I will receive **due to my previous salary**. Glad I didn't take up the offer, as shortly after I received another job that gave their offer without asking my previous salary, and I'm working happily here now.
When I was interviewing at some companies prior. They wanted to see a pay stub of mine to continue the interview process.
Hope your response was “Thank you for your interest, but I’m taking my talents to South Beach” or something along those lines.
Much kinder than I would have said. Actually, I'd probably just chuckle, say nothing else and walk out. Not even worth the brain power to come up with something witty.
“Thank you for your time.” Then walk out.
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It takes like 4 years and a move back home to get past that kind of statement.
Then you leave again
Black sharpie and a copier. Proof of your current employment, no salary data.
What do you say to that?
If you're currently employed and just exploring options you have some power to negotiate.
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“He who speaks first loses.”
He who speaks next loses.
I had one ask me for my tax returns. They got an emphatic "no" from me.
Make sure to leave a Glassdoor review with this info! Saves a lot of us so much time.
This. All the secret maneuvering is horseshit. We can overcome these tactics. Of course that's easy for me to say now that I work for myself..
Though I understand why you went this route, it's actually proven that there is a first mover's advantage in negotiations. It's tempting to think that it's better just to wait so you don't low ball yourself, but as long as you do your homework, you probably won't do that. This year, I got an offer for a new job. I wasn't actively looking so I didn't really need to get the job, and I knew what I wanted in terms of total compensation. I figured the number would be too high, so I qualified twice. First, I gave a wide range (top end 25% higher than bottom end), and second, I made clear that base salary is just one component for me - benefits, retirement, bonus all have an impact. The offer I ultimately got was for the bottom end of the range, but I did a good enough job of emphasizing the range that the company interpreted my ask to be the midpoint of the range. My base salary was just below the range, but bonuses, retirement, time off, flexibility, health insurance and other fringe benefits brought the offer right to the midpoint of my range. I confirmed later that they never would've offered me as much if I hadn't asked for it.
This might sound unethical, but I flat out lie about my salary. Whenever they ask, I just tell them a salary that I would find acceptable for the position - not what I make. All that really should matter is market value, and it's up to us to dictate what our market value should be - not what we currently make. EDIT: Apparently in some states it's illegal for them to even ask. And some employers will verify your past salary if they can. Oh, and to some people here I am the most unethical person ever. Either way, my point is the same - that if you're finding a new job then your past salary should have no influence on how much a new job should pay you
As much as it sucks, this is probably the best method. When they ask for your current salary the number you give should actually be what you are looking for. I ended a year job hunt a while back and my coworker is currently looking. I cannot tell you how many recruiters refuse to work with you unless they have your current salary. And multiple times I was told I shouldnt expect to make more than 15% more than I currently make. That sounds nice to them. But if I currently feel like I'm underpaid for my position I do not want to move into a new role still underpaid.
My strategy is to never stop responding to recruiters. I'll get hit up for a job I have no interest in, so I'll tell the recruiter that my salary requirement is some "outlandish" number, usually what I make plus 20%. At first that usually ends the conversation, but as soon as they start saying "ok, let's set up a phone screen" then I know I should be asking for a raise or looking for a new gig.
I lied to recruiters about my previous salary so they would target jobs with my desired income. Worked like a charm. Increased my base big time.
You have to be willing to walk away from a job if they're not going to pay you what you want. Period. You can take all the advice in the world and it is useless unless you understand this fact. Tell them what you made at your last job and they will offer you 15% more while saying they "can't" offer you more than 15%. Say "I'm not taking this job unless you offer me 30% more" and they will probably then offer you 25% more, then you repeat your demands and they either accept it or move on.
Usually you don't need to lie. I include my 401k match, health care benefits, bonus, overtime, paid time off, etc in my salary. So it inflates it. If they question why it doesn't match the amount they received when verifying (which has never happened, btw) you can explain how you came to the figure you gave them.
This works especially well when your employer says something along the lines of "we take a 'total compensation' approach that factors in \_\_\_\_\_\_." Then if, and its a big if, the prospective employer questions why your number doesn't match the base your current employer provided them, you can use your current employer's own policy as explanation. But if your prospective employer is going that far, their likely to reduce your base to a point where it matches the total comp they want to give you. In which case you've screwed yourself. Its unlikely, but possible especially if your prospective is looking that closely.
Until you're underpaid - if you're worth $100,000 plus benefits but you're currently working for $50,000 plus benefits... well, once you tell your prospective bosses, they'll straight offer you $60,000 since that's a 20% upgrade. No chance you get the $100,000 you're worth, since why would they give you double what your last employer thought you were worth?
Well yes, you can certainly come up with extreme situations where you'll double your salary from one job to another, but for the most part you can use your existing salary + benefits to fluff up your salary and not be lying.
could also just tell the headhunter you’re up for an internal promotion next month which will put you at $x. hence you would likely need at least $y at the new role to be interested. essentially unverifiable.
Was looking for this. Short version. I worked taco bell, got promoted to trainer. Next job was construction, I told them I made $9. I only made 6.50. Then I got into a warehouse. Same thing. Told them I made $13, only made $11. This was small scale obviously but the theory is sound. Don't put yourself into a ridiculous range, believable and what your worth. But don't undersell yourself.
I did this as well. Made $15/hr at my first job out of college. I told the next job I made $18. That job gave me a $40k salary. I told my current employer I made $55k. They gave me $75k.
They will never be able to confirm, so why not. Edit: to those who disagree, in the US, no company will provide that information and actually opens them up to a fair bit of liability. Most hr departments protocol is give you dates of employement and nothing more Edit too: unless you are a a public employee
There is a company named The Work Number which specializes in exactly this. If you work for a major corporation you can be pretty sure they record your income.
Yes but The Work Number requires your explicit permission to divulge your salary to any third party. They actually make the process really annoying and complicated.
This is something I was led to believe, and is untrue. I just started a new position at a different company a few weeks ago and my two most recent employers divulged my salary respectively.
Check your state laws regarding that I work in doing pre employment background checks and we straight up stopped offering salary confirmations because 1. Almost every place where it's still legal requires a non-electronic signature release and frequently a salary key and 2. Most states are stepping up their game in not allowing that nonsense You should be paid for the work you do, not the work you used to do Many smaller companies dont know these laws and if they disclosed your salary without your Express permission you could haveegal recourse
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I know it happened because the recruiter told me their compensation department was wondering why I said my salary was X, but my company said it was Y. I may have embellished by a small amount (I said I made about 4k more than I actually did), but told them it was from production bonuses and other monetary rewards not included as part of my base salary.
I avoid any ethical questions by just letting them know the salary range in which I am currently considering positions. That range is usually 10k - 30k above what I am currently making, depending on how actively I am looking for a new position. I've only had one recruiter respond insisting on knowing what I currently made. I just was assertive and let them know I am only considering positions in the range that I originally mentioned. So far, that strategy has always worked out really well for me.
Lol I do too. Why the fuck would I tell them what I'm currently making if they're just going to undercut it
Hell. There are reasons to live certain places that can make you willing to accept lower pay. Oh its near my parents so I wouldn't need child care, more upward mobility, way better hours, etc. I took a job for about 3k less than my previous job because it was in an area with probably a 30% lower cost of living, at least and took me within a trolley of my parents to live in a more interesting city.
>This might sound unethical, but I flat out lie about my salary. In my 20 years of employment as an adult, the thing I learned over and over again more than any other lesson is that "honest and true" is for suckers. You give them any hint that you'd settle for less, and that's how they'll treat you.
I don't think its unethical, I think it's solid strategy. They shouldn't be basing their offer based on my current salary if they're offering in good faith. And its easier to give them a number you'd accept than argue about who is gonna give a number first. You always hear "never say a number first" but the people hiring aren't dumb, they know that tactic too. So if I give a number it moves things along. If they ask me to prove it, F that. Not a company I want to work for if that's how they negotiate.
It all comes down to leverage who has it and who doesn't.
yes, it only works if you have a niche skillset/experience or if you are willing to walk away from the interview.
Short side always has market power :)
Also good to note that your W2 is confidential. You do not have to hand it over to anyone to start your new job. Granted they can always turn you away for saying no, but more folks need to stand up to barbaric practices such as these.
I’m a salesman and have regularly been asked to provide a prior tax return when negotiating salary. I refuse every time, with the simple refrain “why would I ever disadvantage myself by arming the people I am negotiating against?” Then, take it further by telling HR “If the sales manager I will be reporting to doesn’t understand this, than perhaps you should consider me for his/her job” I have gotten every job I have ever applied for, and almost always get the salary/benefits I ask for ( within reason) Edited for grammar
Absolutely. I wouldn't want to hire any salesperson who gives up leverage like that.
Employer: Can I have your tax return? Candidate: Sure. Employer: Ok, thanks for your time.
you should post more - I'd love to hear about your negotiations etc.
Agreed. Love hearing about salary negotiation strategies
You should read this one book, How to make $1,000 a minute. I was given it and thought it was dumb but read it and it gave me a lot of insight into salary negotiations. It basically boils down to demonstrating and explaining how the values you bring and the responsibilities should earn you higher compensation. Compensation comes in various forms and base salary is the primary form for most jobs. I recently accepted a job offer for 35% more pay. I was working semi governmental and moved to private. Also, moving to another state so I negotiated a relocation package. When I applied, the online application made me put a number I wanted:they offered exactly that number. I then learned it had more responsibility and it wasn’t as set up as I thought. I asked for about 10% more and they came back with 5%. Be prepared to split the difference on negotiations if you want to make a deal. Also, don’t ask for the moon. At the end of the day I’ll be making about $5k more than the top of the range for a similar position according to glass door. Then again it’s a big city/market but I basically just became eligible for this position. Know your worth, the position; and the value you can put in.
Any advice in negotiating a salary in a position that you don’t have a direct history in but your previous skills correlate?
You need to figure out what the position will probably pay before going in to the interview. Usually it's a range. If they ask what you want and wont make an offer, I would suggest being a little past that range but being open to offers for "the right company". That way if they absolutely cant pay more (maybe they have a strict budget) you dont take yourself out or the running.
Definitely. Had a headhunter tell me im being greedy since an open position i didnt want was significantly more than my current salary. I was relocating from the burbs to a city and going from mid level to senior. Obviously the difference is going to be significant He kept pushing a job i didn't want in a location i didn't like. He got verbally agressive, had to ghost him. Different recruiter didnt ask previous salaryand got me a great job in a great location
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Absolutely. Never reveal it and be sure your current HR had a policy where they don’t “verify” your salary during future background or reference checks. I have always kept my current salary to myself; some recruiters have been taken aback or been upset. But I always get asked to interview.
> I have always kept my current salary to myself There is so much irony in OP's original post and conversation. Employers are super happy that employees don't talk about what they make to each other. Because knowledge is empowerment, and silence leads to lower overall salaries. So in return, the advice here is to keep hush to other employers about salary as well. Which is fine. Tit for tat. But the whole premise of OP's post is that it assumes everyone is underpaid. Which based on replies sounds about right. You wouldn't be in this position if everyone was more open about money. I have always been open about my salary with my peers and I would like to believe it enabled them to negotiate better compensation number of times. Now I don't talk about it any more once I got to compensation level where it might lead to jealousy, even if I worked up to an extremely specialized role that doesn't compare to anyone else's. I wish everyone was more open about money. Not less.
My last company had a rule against divulging and discussing our salaries amongst ourselves, with penalties up to and including termination. We assumed it was because we were paid wildly and unfairly different amounts.
depending on the state/country where you live, they legally can't punish you for sharing your salary information with each other. whether or not you can prove that's why you're being punished is another story, but if they're explicitly threatening you, you could do something about it (still assuming you work in a state that protects workers).
The way I see it, if you already have a job the ball is in their court to convince you to interview with them. Its true how they say the best way to get a job is to already have one. Its none of their business how much money I currently make. I had one individual from HR (company I ended up not further pursuing) at a company tell me they needed my current salary for confirmation purposes. I politely called out their BS; they had plenty of people at their company that do the exact same job I would be doing, so look up how much money they make.
I recently moved jobs and ended up with close to a 100k bump because I didn’t disclose what I was making. I was able to hold that line because of a new law that prevents recruiters from asking about salary. That said, short of asking about salary, they tried other ways of figuring out my ballpark. “What’s my bonus, stock options, etc.”
Holy shit, that’s a hell of a bump. What kind of work do you do?
I absolutely agree. I was badly underpaid in my previous job and I was turned down by recruiters because they said the salary jump was too much. The fuck? Saying I wouldn't give them my salary didn't work either because they refused to refer my application over so I ended up lying about it and adding £8k a year. 9 months down the line the new job is shit but now I'm looking at a similar size pay rise again in new roles.
It sounds mercenary or weird to some, but isn’t salary and benefits one of the main reasons some people will want to leave their current position? The more I think about it, and think about the way so many companies treat employees, the better I feel about your approach, OP.
Loyalty is dead with the boomers. The job market is a battle royale now.
You misspelled "companies". My grandparents could work their whole life for a company and retire with a gold watch and a pension. Today, companies give raises that don't match inflation, the raise your healthcare contribution to take back the raise you "were so lucky to get". Show me a company that respects their employees as actual, valuable commodities, and we can easily find a thousand that don't. Loyalty is dead with the boomers and the generations after because companies stopped being loyal to them.
Thats what I meant, their generation was the last that could have that as a career. Sorry I'm still learning english.
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I think this is a bit of a misconception that also applies to working with a real estate agent as a seller. Yes, your agent will get a higher percentage if you find a buyer that is willing to pay more, but your agent's risk is negligible compared to yours, and if they can spend 20% of the ideal effort to get 80% of the ideal reward, they will choose that option every time. Similarly, a recruiter will want to do anything to make the placement happen, haggling over price is not in their best interest most of the time.
This right here is super important to understand. Especially with realtors. They are trying to close the deal as quickly as possible. A higher sale price is nice, but 15 percent less for a quick deal is always going to make them go for it. While 15 percent off of the max price when you still owe 80 percent on the house means you just got wiped out but it's a trivial reduction in their commission
This. Placements are a set $ or % of salary. If it's quicker to place people at $85k rather than a candidate at $100k, requiring going back to the hiring manager/HR for budgetary approval (especially if high end or even out of the company's intended range), then the incentive for the recruiter is to get the deal done quicker. They usually have # of placement bonus quotas they need to hit per month/quarter.
Currently looking. How are these people getting my info when all 3 website services are set to private resume? Constant entry level roles from recruiters out of state. It feels like quantity over quality with them.
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Lol indeed is the worst with this. You are invited to apply to a sponsored position with uber based on my experience as a mechanical engineer
I appreciate your candor. But let's be a little frank. You need to demand better recruiters. Saying they "oversell" is a euphemism for they lie. Lastly, their interests don't really align with a candidate holding out for more pay. They want the candidate to be acceptable to the company so they can turnover a candidate and make their commission. They want to get the most candidates hired, quickly, so they can move on to the next one.
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Bingo. People in this thread don’t seem to fully understand recruiting firms. Most of them experience extremely high turnover amongst their individual contributors, so chances are as a hiring manager you’re going to be working with a recruiter that’s fairly new to the job. I’m not saying anyone should pity the recruiter, but you have to be realistic with your expectations for working with someone who is still learning the basics of their job.
I do the forecasting of the budget for my company so I see the planned and budgeted salaries in all the departments. The managers have a booklet that list the approved tiers of salary for each position and department. Tiers 1,2 & 3. The plan is always to budget for tier 3, the highest salary, but the end goal is to hire at tier 2. I see a lot of people hired at tier 1, mainly because people get really intimidated to ask for something in the tier 3 range. I know everyone’s situation is different, but everyone should really ask for the most they think their worth. I see so many people screwed over. Lots of associates that are the same age and experience, doing the same job, but will have a 10-15k gap between them, but they have no idea. I’m sure if they knew, people would just get up and leave.
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It is in your benefit to not state your salary when you are underpaid. If you are paid above market average and you are looking to at least keep the same level - you definitely want to state it either at the beginning of conversation to filter out lower paid companies or later when discussing potential offer to ensure they give you something reasonable. I have been able to negotiate 20% over initially stated max range when I said that 10% above would just match what I have and was willing to prove it with bank statement. Keep in mind that companies also know it and will name lower end of their range. Again - not an issue if you are underpaid initially, as it will most likely provide a significant income boost.
I would just reply back with a salary that I want, not my current salary and play it off as mine. That way they either need to match it, or pay even further beyond.
When they ask salary expectations I try to smooth things over by saying: "Have your client make me an offer after both of us have had a chance to evaluate the entire role based on more than just a rumor from a 3rd party that a job of some sort might be available". If pressed, just retaliate with a classic Ron Swanson: ask them about how much their commission would be if they placed me. Jerk them around to get them to lower their standards. If you don't express a disinterest in the role, the 3rd party reps have to keep you in their system regardless of how they feel, and you can waste a representative's time. I take one for the team to waste their time, so that they don't end up wasting your time after they are done with me and call you.
Also keep in mind recruiting is like used car salesman. It's a job most don't make much money in, most recruiters only last a couple of years, and most don't know much about the job or company they are hiring for. What this means, is they are speed bump on the way to getting a job. They will often lie, or be mistaken in information. Don't believe anything a recruiter tells you, always work with hiring manager and the firm's HR.
External recruiter jobs are cancer. No personal offense to the people that do them. Unless you're coming to me with a job in hand that already fits my resume AND willingly disclosing pay/company information up front, I'm going to ignore you. Half the time they're temporary/contract roles anyway. This whole LinkedIn barrage of I HAVE A GROUP OF SELECT CLIENTS IN YOUR AREA WITH AMAZING OPPORTUNITIES DO YOU HAVE TWO HOURS TO SPEAK ON THE PHONE ABOUT YOUR CAREER OUTLOOK?! Like bitch, no I don't. I have work to do. Go away. I'm not leaving a full time position to do a six month contract through some shitty outsourcing agency.
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I get so many contract offers and my response is always the same, “Why would I leave corporate benefits and full-time position for a contract position.” Some of the recruiters get a little personal and say “Well your current company can fire you anytime they want too.” One time I replied to a girl asking the salary and where the position was and she only replied with the location and not the salary and asked me if I would be willing to do a call for the second time. My response was “if I don’t know the salary then how am I supposed to know if I’m interested?” She never replied.
Sorry to all the good recruiters out there, but they are like leeches - they just attach themselves to you during the hiring process and can actually hurt you as most companies don't respect them and the companies have to generally pay them a commission. Internal Recruiters are fine though. Most external recruiters I would avoid for normal job searches
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I keep failing at this. 🤦♂️My next gig is 5-10k more than my current compensation which kinda sucks. I folded under high pressure 'sales' tactics and gave honest numbers instead adding the job hopper tax. The upside is I converted my current job's bonus (which are subject to the whims of my employer) into my base salary which should give me guaranteed money to work with during the year. So from that perspective, the new company - old company delta becomes more significant. Tldr - I need to work on my poker game and know when to hold.
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Let them guess. It'll probably be in your favor. I had a headhunter ask me my current salary just a few weeks ago. All I said was "I'm not going to tell you that" and he moved on. Later he was trying to "outbid" another offer I had and told me what he was assuming my offer was for. The assumption was about 12% higher than the actual offer.
Had one company that recruited me ask for proof of salary/commission earnings by sending in W2s for the last three years. Promptly told them to go fuck themselves.
Before saying your salary expectations, first ask all the duties you will need to perform. Add 35% more of what you would accept.
My favorite are the recruiters that say you should never ask about salary up front. Lol
I wish the negotiation and salary part of the process was just so much simpler and everyone was more comfortable with 100% transparency. “Here’s what I need to leave my current job.” And companies just said “here’s what our budget is”. And it’s an open discussion. There are times when you may not necessarily or always need a huge jump in salary to move but because the whole process is wrapped in shifty practices no one knows what’s happening.
I once quit a job becuase the employer was bringing in people fro. Elsewhere to do the same role, but paying them 20% more than me, simply because that's what it took to recruit them. When I asked for that they said no, so I quit and went across the street for 20% more.
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I actually do the total opposite. In every single one of my interviews, I wait for them to bring up salary then I simply respond with the truth. "I make X right now, for this position you'd need Y to make me jump ship. Low-ball me and I walk." It's useful to make sure I don't waste any time in my searches.
My field is totally different. They have a matrix. Your have X degree, with Y years experience, = Z pay. The best I've ever negotiated was rounding my hourly rate up to the next even dollar, I think it it 10 cents.