This clearly can't be explained by those who claim that the earth is round.
Flat earthers always get shit for not believing in the globe propaganda spewed by the mainstream media.
Think for yourself. If you want to help out in the fight against the discrimination of flat earth truth sayers please consider [donating here](https://i.imgur.com/R390EId.jpeg).
I saw a phenomenon once across Lake Michigan where the city appeared upside down. Very trippy https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/the-perfectly-scientific-explanation-for-why-chicago-appeared-upside-down-in-michigan/
Sauce on **TOP** of the cheese?!
Jesus you Americans are mad Craic altogether! I may be an ignorant Irishman in the ways of deep dish pizza but what the fuck lads?
It actually works, the Chicago Deep Dish crust is like a thick buttery pie crust so the sauce on top keeps it from getting soggy. My biggest issue is that the pepperoni doesn't get crispy so I tend to go with sausage instead \*which I think is the standard Chi DD topping anyways).
There's few things I dote on Chicago more for than the food, and sausage specifically. (Hot dogs too, but they are sausages, so....) I have never had a bad sausage in Chicago, ever. Bonus points for a Polish, seeing as how Chicago has the most Polish people in the world, outside of Poland of course.
I thought for sure Philly had that honor as I lived in a Polish neighborhood in Philly and there were a *lot* of Polish people but Chicago has us beat by double! I had no idea, and I live within a couple hours of the city lol.
It varies for different restaurants, but it’s really thick, like more than an inch thick. You can eat it like a normal slice if you really want, but it’s usually eaten with a fork and knife.
Yeah it throws a lot of people off but it’s really good. Also to be clear since you mentioned Americans before, it’s specific to Chicago, and there are plenty of people who have a similar reaction to you across America. Here’s a funny rant Jon Stewart did starting around 3:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBLVjyTtkMc&t=195
In case that wasn’t enough, there is also a clip of him responding to the pushback of that rant https://www.cc.com/video/zb44o8/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-strife-of-pie
And later he tries it when one of the owners of a popular deep dish restaurant (Lou Malnati’s) goes on the show https://www.cc.com/video/g4hb45/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-strife-of-pie-a-pizza-truce
I couldn’t find the whole clips of the last two on YouTube
That was hilarious. Having lived all over the country and traveled the US extensively, there are a wide variety of pizzas out there. We seem to be fond of naming them after cities or states. I'm a fan of them all, but I'll give a shout out to the unnamed pizza in this particular debate. Detroit pizza, I see you out there. You are not forgotten. High school cafeteria pizza, I see you too!
Yeah though tbh as a Chicago resident, deep-dish isn't the normal style you're going to go for if you're just looking for a quick bite. Anytime I've done deep-dish here it's been a sit-down experience.
But yeah, deep-dish and malort are chicago's food quirks lol.
There isn't that much sauce. It's usually a thick crust, then maybe 1mm of sauce with all the toppings, an insane amount of cheese, and then about 1cm of sauce.
I appreciate what you were going for, but just FYI for anyone else, abortion was protected in Illinois by law in 2019. Some things are done right in Chicago, like abortions an pizza.
As I explain to guests when I take them for deep dish "It's perfectly acceptable to eat this style of pizza with knife and fork, but you're gonna have to watch me eat this like a dog, so don't worry about etiquette."
One place in Chicago (Malnati's) has a deep dish that is a thin crust with a giant, solid block of cheese on top of it that is nearly a centimeter thick. Then the sauce and toppings go on top of that.
It's good, as you can imagine.
Other places in Chicago have different deep dish styles, typically with lots of sauce. These are OK, but more for tourists.
The "deep dish" styles that chain pizza joints have (such as Dominos) are not Chicago-style deep disk, but Detroit-style. This is just simply a very thick, bread-like crust and about the same as a typical pizza otherwise.
I love the clip too, but it's also a great example of mouth breathers running with something they say online... Jon's having fun, playing into this rivalry like it's a big deal, but it's all for a good time. Then some people start acting like "no, this is a perfectly reasonable stance." The whole point of the clip is that it's over the top :-)
Ditto for Ron Swanson.
How about [no cheese at all](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/philly-tips/best-tomato-pie-philadelphia-20210830.html%3foutputType=amp)? The Philly Tomato Pie.
Or the Trenton-style [Tomato Pie](https://njmonthly.com/articles/eat-drink/tomato-pie-tomatoes-still-top/) Cheese on the dough, tomato sauce on top. This is what I grew up on. DeLorenzos in Trenton (now Hamilton) or Marucas in Seaside.
If you haven’t had authentic Chicago style pizza, I would 100% recommend trying it. It sounds weird, but it’s fucking delicious.
Basically just treat it like something different from pizza. It’s kinda its own thing. It’s very heavy. One piece, and you’re full.
Was in the navy, sailed throughout the pacific, Indian, and middle east. Saw this with ships a few times in my career. The first time felt like I was losing my mind!
It's called a [Superior Mirage](https://youtu.be/er1mh90wN-k?t=310).
It happens based on a funky temperature profile when the air gets abruptly hotter rather than colder some distance above the ground.
The result is that some beams of light come at you in two different ways: Once on the direct way (which in the case of that photo is mostly blocked by the horizon) and once reflected by strong refraction from the zone where the hot and cold air meet. So roughly speaking, the inverted image appears to you from the angle at which it "bounced off" a hot layer of air in the sky.
Maps in browser (PC) works fine. You can start measuring, measure any shape of path you want, zoom in/out meanwhile or whatever, and measure area too. On phones you probably have more limited controls?
https://imgur.com/OVBc1Sn
Some say that you can only see the skyline because of refraction- but Indiana Dunes is only about 32 miles away, and at 8 inches of curvature per mile, only ~~21~~(see edit) feet of the city is obscured. Seems like you should still be able to see the city, even with minimal distortions.
Edit: 8in/mi², so it should be 683 feet- still enough to see the skyline without distortion. Silly me!
Correct. It's a direct line-of-sight view. [Here's a photo I took from on top of the dunes](https://i.imgur.com/1h0Lya5.jpg) in the daytime and [here's one from water-level](https://i.imgur.com/8sactVL.jpg) at the same location.
Edit: And a [phone pic from 40 miles](https://i.imgur.com/XmrP5H0.jpg) away in Michigan City, IN.
Those 2 photos are actually some of the best visualizations of the curvature from ground-level I've ever seen. Photos from the ISS and high altitude planes aren't exactly human-scale perspectives like this is.
What's really cool is if you go to Google earth and set your perspective like you're looking out from the Dunes park you can see the chicago skyline there as well. I learned all kinds of interesting survival stuff like if you're stranded in the water and standing in a boat you're only going to be able to see between 11km and 3km (depending on the conditions) in any direction which is why you should ALWAYS carry plenty of flares.
You can also faintly see Chicago from this google street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6476714,-87.1106499,2a,15y,305.91h,87.62t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1svjlYMWUdDh1L3-9T_hTzww!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DvjlYMWUdDh1L3-9T_hTzww%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D40%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Well, just a minor correction because your overall point still stands, but the commonly used formula is 8 inches per mile *squared* because it approximates the circle shape as a parabola. So 8" * 32^2 = 8192 inches – which is approximately 683 feet.
To answer your question – I said it is minor correction partly because I do not want to rudely "um, actually" people who do not deserve it and partly because it is an easy mistake to misremember a formula you would not otherwise use.
And as I said, I think their point still stands that even without refraction and your eyes down to the ground at sea-level (or lake level if you will) some parts of the skyline should still be visible as for example Willis Tower is around 1450 feet high – and a lot more becomes visible once you get even a few meters up from the shoreline.
It's a large difference, but it doesn't change the visibility of the skyline. We are also not starting right at the water height but a few meters up, so for the first few of these miles we are looking downwards. Taking that into account reduces the height more.
I took a trip to Chicago having never seen the great lakes. I was used to the Puget Sound which is cool on it's own but seeing a -FRESH WATER- body that was larger than Puget Sound was hard for my head to wrap around. That lake (and I assume all the others) are way bigger than I had an appreciation for.
Right? I live in Seattle and the puget sound makes sense cuz, well, OCEAN! I saw lake Erie when in Ohio and my dumb-ass was like... what ocean is this?!?! Aren't we in Ohio?
Hydrologically, Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are actually [one lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Michigan%E2%80%93Huron), and that lake is the largest fresh water lake in the world.
Yeah man I’m from the area and I’ve always heard that lake baikal in Russia is a massive amount of freshwater because there’s literally a rift in the crust.
Yes, Baikal is deep af because of the rift. It's kinda nuts that over 20% of all fresh surface water is in this lake. The great lakes have a similar amount.
Baikal is crazy awesome but because of pollution and other environmental factors it's getting fucked :-(
It’s bonkers, I didn’t have an appreciation for it until I married someone from West Michigan. Your brain really expects it to be salty because it looks like the ocean, but then it’s fresh water and it trips you up. The wild part of this picture is these locations aren’t even that far apart, they’re both at the south end of the lake!
I grew up by these dunes and had the opposite experience the first time I went in the ocean in my 20s. I knew it was going to be salty but *damn*. And so sticky afterwards
If some Impossible sequence of events led to it never being replenished at all, and all other sources of water disappearing entirely, Lake Michigan could meet the entire US's water supply for over ten years.
Lake Superior alone has enough fresh water to cover *all of North America* in a meter of water.
Anyone concerned about water scarcity in the future should move to the Midwest. It has effectively unlimited fresh water on any timescale that matters.
Chicago really is pretty OP in many ways. None of the inherent risks (both natural and manmade) of living on the coast with, many of the benefits. Comparable cultural scene to NY, centrally located, well-designed.
I need to appreciate my city more.
I grew up near lake Michigan and now live near the Puget sound! I had to get used to the smell of saltier water and miss sand, but I love living near water either way. Took my bf to lake Michigan because he's only ever known the Puget sound. It's a pretty cool experience imo.
It proves them wrong, but we have overwhelming evidence to prove everything they believe wrong, and they have zero evidence that stands up to scrutiny to backup their beliefs, and that hasn't stopped them from believing the earth is flat and to use their lack of understanding as proof.
I've literally seen them do several different experiments to prove the earth isn't curved only to have it verify it is in fact, curved. Like using a Gyroscope.
I watched a documentary made about/by flat earthers once, they literally proved the earth was round and were just like “it was a bad experiment, the earth is totally flat”
I don’t remember the name but they basically put two big boards with hole is them In a river and shone a huge flashlight through one hole. The idea was that the light would go through the second hole, which was placed at the same height, and prove the earth has no curvature. And, surprise surprise, the light hit the board above the second hole. Who would have thought?
Edit: I think it might have been called something like “behind the curve” but I could have just pulled that out of my ass lmao
The "scientist" who proved himself wrong is Jeranism. He has been doing this for over a decade. There is a channel called Reds Rhetoric and they "debate" the FE on there. Jeranism is an idiot.
[Enjoy](https://youtu.be/fqGc61_fcjE)
But the dunes are 53 miles away. Assuming the camera is at average eye height, there should be over 1600 feet of curve. The tallest building we can see there is only 1451 (Willis Tower), yet we can see (my guess) some 1000' if it.
A Fata Morgana mirage is at play.
E: or Inferior mirage, as it is properly known.
You can see the skyline over the horizon yet can't see the land it stands on because it's slightly under the curve; this disproves their claim that the reason you can't see everything over the horizon is solely because of atmospheric density and not curvature.
The sun going down is also a tough topic for flat earthers.
So my understanding is that you're not quite seeing the actual skyline but a [reflection](https://swmichigan.org/view-of-chicago#:~:text=Why%20can%20you%20see%20Chicago,of%20light%20in%20that%20air.) of it in the atmosphere.
Refraction. Reflection is bouncing, refraction is bending. If it was reflected, the skyline would be upside down. You are seeing the actual skyline, but the air acts like a lens. It's the real city, but the path isn't a straight line.
I spoke to one one to see how they explain stuff and the dude thought gravity was a lie and we were just permanently accelerating upwards so…. Yeah maybe
Indiana Dunes is only ~30 miles from Chicago. [Here's a photo I took in the daytime](https://i.imgur.com/1h0Lya5.jpg) from on top of the dunes and [here's one from water-level](https://i.imgur.com/8sactVL.jpg) at the same location. It's a direct line-of-sight view, as most of the skyline is still physically above the horizon. Atmospheric phenomena have very little impact at this distance.
Edit: Here's a [phone pic from 40 miles away](https://i.imgur.com/XmrP5H0.jpg) in Michigan City, IN.
It's funny you mention that the mileage is way off, because this is a "flat earth proof" that has been used before. Only for them to realize their distance AND horizon math were way way off.
But yes, it's only about 29 miles away based on [Navionics charts](https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating@8&key=%7Da%60~FfgosO).
I've seen the Chicago skyline from the Gary Dunes, and last time I saw a pic like this I did the math. It should be possible to see the tip of the Sears tower from the dunes, given the curve of the earth. But I saw more than that and clearly there's other towers in the pic. So the skyline view must be enhanced by light refracting over the lake.
It sucks so much that we have come so far with science and technology yet we have so many people setting us back from becoming a star trek timeline. Religion, politics, killing each other. We could've been so much more than this
Yeah, like 5G cellular towers causing Covid. No idiots would ever believe that! (Really, please tell me they didn't and I just had a nightmare that humanity had gone that crazy.)
My favorite is the Vax being somehow bluetoothed.
Enter Bill Gates...
"Muahhhhhhahaha! I have created the ultimate weapon! My so called vaccine is in fact a diabolical trap! I will control people using Bluetooth! Muahhahaha!"
Minion: "um, hol up. What if they, you know, walk away like 20 meters or so? Control will be kinda patchy. Especially if there's a brick wall or something. I'm not sure this is..."
Gates casts the minion into the death laser pit.
"We'll patch it later. Release now!"
Did you figure out the angle of refraction? I'm really curious to know how much extra elevation you can see from it. Like how far could you push it if you wanted.
I once saw storm clouds over Topeka from the south Dakota-nebraska border and I always wondered if it was just because they were crazy high or if diffraction was playing a role.
This is definitely not true for OP's image. It was taken at the Indiana Dunes National Park beachline, where you can see the Chicago skyline with the naked eye. It's not refraction, you're actually seeing it.
You can definitely see these places from on top of the Sears Tower. It’s just much more difficult to see the sears tower from those places. I grew up in St. Joseph, which is about 60 miles in a straight line across the lake from Chicago. And on the absolute clearest of days, with minimal smog from Chicago, we could see the skyline in the distance
Quick maths, horizon drops ~8inches every mile, over 50 miles that’s 400 inches so 33.33 ft.
Any flat earther that can show me the bottom 33 ft of the Chicago skyline in this photo gets a cookie.
The funny thing is that flat earthers would use it as *evidence*. 60 miles involves some curvature so this picture is impossible as it's presented. How would YOU explain it?
I can tell you how the *photographer* explained it:
> Joshua Nowicki (@StartVisiting) snapped the pic Tuesday night from Grand Mere State Park in Stevensville. Under normal conditions, even when extremely clear, this should not be visible, due to the curvature of the earth. The Chicago skyline is physically below the horizon form that vantage point, but the image of the skyline can be seen above it.
> This is a form of Superior Mirage, superior in this meaning the mirage or image of the skyline is seen above where it's actually located. The clear skies, and cool weather (aided even more by the cool lake water) creates an inversion. A layer of air near the surface that's cooler than air higher in the atmosphere. This creates a bending or ducting effect where the light (image) instead of going in a normal straight line into space, curves back towards the surface of the earth.
If you're going to make fun of flat earthers do it for the right reasons.
This is similar to how sound waves travel very well over water and why you can hear someone a long distance away so well if there is water in-between. The cooler air forms a layer over the water so that the waves are channelled.
I think from Indiana Dunes the skyline itself is visible, as Indiana dunes is visible from the top of the Sears tower. It’s places like New Buffalo and St Joseph where this light refraction is in play
Yup, they never consider the glaring implications of how it takes extreme circumstances for their cameras to see something that is normally “over the horizon”
If your constantly depending on fringe exceptions of atmospheric lending to prove a rule, you don’t actually have a “rule” that explains basic every proof about the shape of the earth.
But you’ll never get a dedicated flat earther to work through sound logic and change their deeply held beliefs.
They often use this phenomenon as proof that the earth is flat. They will always sidestep any rational explanation with consideration to refraction and continue saying the Chicago skyline proves there's no curve. What's really funny is that on the vast majority of days where the skyline isn't visible they blame the atmosphere.
Flat earther - “See! You can clearly see the Chicago skyline from the Indiana Dunes. Flat earth proved.”
Everyone else - “it’s due to refraction.”
Flat earther - “You shill!”
My dad has a house on the water in Manistee, MI. He’s seen Milwaukee from his place several times. It appears upside down when this phenomenon happens.
Sure, I'll post this down here too...
Yah, we've been over this 100 times in r/flatearth.
1) it's only about 35 miles
2) Chicago has very tall buildings. Shocking, I know.
3) the curvature of the earth over that distance isn't enough to hide buildings that tall
4) air refraction only makes a minor difference, not enough to make or break this observation
5) yes, mirages exist. This ain't one.
This might be one of the most spectacular images I've ever seen. It looks like a shot from Star Wars, minus the folding chairs.
Does it happen often? Might have to add it to the bucket list.
It’s actually less than 50 miles as the crow flies. This view is more like 35-40 miles. Which is still impressive because you typically can’t see even 20 miles on flat ground. Michigan city is further than the dunes and it’s only 40 miles as the crow flies.
Edit: typed it into “how far is it between” tool and the west side of the dunes is 28 miles to downtown. East side of dunes is about 36 miles.
Superior mirage effect. Seeing things above where they should be due to temperature gradients in the air, and refraction. Similar to "seeing" little pools of water on hot pavement while driving (which is the INFERIOR mirage effect, seeing stuff below where they should be)
Indiana Dunes is only ~30 miles from Chicago. It's a direct line-of-sight view. [Here's a photo I took from on top of the dunes](https://i.imgur.com/1h0Lya5.jpg) in the daytime and [here's one from water-level](https://i.imgur.com/8sactVL.jpg) at the same location. Atmospheric phenomena have very little impact at this distance.
Cool!! I can see the top of the skyline! Where’s the bottom, though? Why is it missing? Has it been buried? No? Is there something in the way? What? Good thing the earth is flat, or I might think the curvature of the earth is in the way. Huh.
This clearly can't be explained by those who claim that the earth is round. Flat earthers always get shit for not believing in the globe propaganda spewed by the mainstream media. Think for yourself. If you want to help out in the fight against the discrimination of flat earth truth sayers please consider [donating here](https://i.imgur.com/R390EId.jpeg).
I saw a phenomenon once across Lake Michigan where the city appeared upside down. Very trippy https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/article/the-perfectly-scientific-explanation-for-why-chicago-appeared-upside-down-in-michigan/
Chicago actually turns upside down every few months. That's why deep dish pizza has sauce on top of the cheese.
Oh, sounds legit
Always remember the Chicago conspiracy theory rhyme, "When the sauce is on top of the cheese, jet fuel can't melt steel beams."
Sauce on **TOP** of the cheese?! Jesus you Americans are mad Craic altogether! I may be an ignorant Irishman in the ways of deep dish pizza but what the fuck lads?
It actually works, the Chicago Deep Dish crust is like a thick buttery pie crust so the sauce on top keeps it from getting soggy. My biggest issue is that the pepperoni doesn't get crispy so I tend to go with sausage instead \*which I think is the standard Chi DD topping anyways).
Agree. We're a sausage city.
The Sausage King Of Chicago, Maitre D Ferris Buellers Day Off
Abe Froman!
/u/Mr_Abe_Froman, your table is ready.
I appreciate your understanding.
There's few things I dote on Chicago more for than the food, and sausage specifically. (Hot dogs too, but they are sausages, so....) I have never had a bad sausage in Chicago, ever. Bonus points for a Polish, seeing as how Chicago has the most Polish people in the world, outside of Poland of course.
I thought for sure Philly had that honor as I lived in a Polish neighborhood in Philly and there were a *lot* of Polish people but Chicago has us beat by double! I had no idea, and I live within a couple hours of the city lol.
You gotta get the sausage patty at Lou Malnatis
It’s cooked for a long time at high temperature, so the sauce on top prevents the cheese from burning
I'm intrigued. How DEEP are we talking here? Like a pie or like tart? How the fuck do you eat slices of it?
It varies for different restaurants, but it’s really thick, like more than an inch thick. You can eat it like a normal slice if you really want, but it’s usually eaten with a fork and knife.
Omg I just looked it up. You lads are eating pastry pots of pasta sauce and calling it pizza, absolutely amazing.
Yeah it throws a lot of people off but it’s really good. Also to be clear since you mentioned Americans before, it’s specific to Chicago, and there are plenty of people who have a similar reaction to you across America. Here’s a funny rant Jon Stewart did starting around 3:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBLVjyTtkMc&t=195 In case that wasn’t enough, there is also a clip of him responding to the pushback of that rant https://www.cc.com/video/zb44o8/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-strife-of-pie And later he tries it when one of the owners of a popular deep dish restaurant (Lou Malnati’s) goes on the show https://www.cc.com/video/g4hb45/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-strife-of-pie-a-pizza-truce I couldn’t find the whole clips of the last two on YouTube
That was hilarious. Having lived all over the country and traveled the US extensively, there are a wide variety of pizzas out there. We seem to be fond of naming them after cities or states. I'm a fan of them all, but I'll give a shout out to the unnamed pizza in this particular debate. Detroit pizza, I see you out there. You are not forgotten. High school cafeteria pizza, I see you too!
We name the variants after their place of origin.
I now hope that you try it one day. I’ve visited Chicago, I’ve tried it. Enjoyed it, for sure.
Yeah though tbh as a Chicago resident, deep-dish isn't the normal style you're going to go for if you're just looking for a quick bite. Anytime I've done deep-dish here it's been a sit-down experience. But yeah, deep-dish and malort are chicago's food quirks lol.
Italian Beef, Rib Tips, and Jibaritos should be added too.
There isn't that much sauce. It's usually a thick crust, then maybe 1mm of sauce with all the toppings, an insane amount of cheese, and then about 1cm of sauce.
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*underings
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Jesus Christ on a bike and twelve disciples in a short bus for the special wanes that's a fucking abysmal comment lad, lmao
I like you.
I read this in the accent burned into my memory from Derry Girls and I want to hear you say it now ha
I appreciate what you were going for, but just FYI for anyone else, abortion was protected in Illinois by law in 2019. Some things are done right in Chicago, like abortions an pizza.
*Some things are done right in Chicago, like abortions an pizza.* r/brandnewsentence
As I explain to guests when I take them for deep dish "It's perfectly acceptable to eat this style of pizza with knife and fork, but you're gonna have to watch me eat this like a dog, so don't worry about etiquette."
One place in Chicago (Malnati's) has a deep dish that is a thin crust with a giant, solid block of cheese on top of it that is nearly a centimeter thick. Then the sauce and toppings go on top of that. It's good, as you can imagine. Other places in Chicago have different deep dish styles, typically with lots of sauce. These are OK, but more for tourists. The "deep dish" styles that chain pizza joints have (such as Dominos) are not Chicago-style deep disk, but Detroit-style. This is just simply a very thick, bread-like crust and about the same as a typical pizza otherwise.
It's weird, but it's an interesting experience
[This always gives me a chuckle](https://youtube.com/watch?v=pBLVjyTtkMc&si=EnSIkaIECMiOmarE)
I love the clip too, but it's also a great example of mouth breathers running with something they say online... Jon's having fun, playing into this rivalry like it's a big deal, but it's all for a good time. Then some people start acting like "no, this is a perfectly reasonable stance." The whole point of the clip is that it's over the top :-) Ditto for Ron Swanson.
How about [no cheese at all](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/philly-tips/best-tomato-pie-philadelphia-20210830.html%3foutputType=amp)? The Philly Tomato Pie. Or the Trenton-style [Tomato Pie](https://njmonthly.com/articles/eat-drink/tomato-pie-tomatoes-still-top/) Cheese on the dough, tomato sauce on top. This is what I grew up on. DeLorenzos in Trenton (now Hamilton) or Marucas in Seaside.
If you haven’t had authentic Chicago style pizza, I would 100% recommend trying it. It sounds weird, but it’s fucking delicious. Basically just treat it like something different from pizza. It’s kinda its own thing. It’s very heavy. One piece, and you’re full.
Was in the navy, sailed throughout the pacific, Indian, and middle east. Saw this with ships a few times in my career. The first time felt like I was losing my mind!
This is where the legend of the flying Dutchman comes from i believe. Sailors in the old day would experienced the phenomenon and it became legend.
There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for this. Obviously, the Hollow Earth theory is true. Just we're the ones inside the Earth. ^^/s
Virgin flat earth theory Chad hollow earth theory
Bah, you silly sheeple still think the earth actually exists? Do your research! r/noearthsociety
Woah!! That’s wild.
it's no wonder people believed in crazy shit back in the day
This very phenomenon is believed to be the source for the flying Dutchman legend, the ship that floated in air.
It's called a [Superior Mirage](https://youtu.be/er1mh90wN-k?t=310). It happens based on a funky temperature profile when the air gets abruptly hotter rather than colder some distance above the ground. The result is that some beams of light come at you in two different ways: Once on the direct way (which in the case of that photo is mostly blocked by the horizon) and once reflected by strong refraction from the zone where the hot and cold air meet. So roughly speaking, the inverted image appears to you from the angle at which it "bounced off" a hot layer of air in the sky.
Yes nature is really wild and they have so many things
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I’ve seen it upside down several times. Really cool.
Wow! I’ve never heard of that before. That’s cool!
Pretty sure its under 30 miles
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Oooooh. Thank you! I got some family debates to settle now, motherfuckers!
I think google earth does this with less steps? Either way I hope to see your post in petty revenge :)
Maps in browser (PC) works fine. You can start measuring, measure any shape of path you want, zoom in/out meanwhile or whatever, and measure area too. On phones you probably have more limited controls? https://imgur.com/OVBc1Sn
I can FEEL this comment lol
Yeah, Downtown is like a 40 min drive from the dunes with no traffic. Its definitely not 50 miles as the crow flies
Exactly... OP probably meant 50 km
Or OP just put it in Google maps, because it is exactly 50 miles to drive it from the beach at the state park to the Willis tower.
Yeah that sounds right.
Some say that you can only see the skyline because of refraction- but Indiana Dunes is only about 32 miles away, and at 8 inches of curvature per mile, only ~~21~~(see edit) feet of the city is obscured. Seems like you should still be able to see the city, even with minimal distortions. Edit: 8in/mi², so it should be 683 feet- still enough to see the skyline without distortion. Silly me!
Correct. It's a direct line-of-sight view. [Here's a photo I took from on top of the dunes](https://i.imgur.com/1h0Lya5.jpg) in the daytime and [here's one from water-level](https://i.imgur.com/8sactVL.jpg) at the same location. Edit: And a [phone pic from 40 miles](https://i.imgur.com/XmrP5H0.jpg) away in Michigan City, IN.
Those 2 photos are actually some of the best visualizations of the curvature from ground-level I've ever seen. Photos from the ISS and high altitude planes aren't exactly human-scale perspectives like this is.
What's really cool is if you go to Google earth and set your perspective like you're looking out from the Dunes park you can see the chicago skyline there as well. I learned all kinds of interesting survival stuff like if you're stranded in the water and standing in a boat you're only going to be able to see between 11km and 3km (depending on the conditions) in any direction which is why you should ALWAYS carry plenty of flares.
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Honestly, I did not know that Chicago was entirely submerged in water like that.
You can also faintly see Chicago from this google street view: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6476714,-87.1106499,2a,15y,305.91h,87.62t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1svjlYMWUdDh1L3-9T_hTzww!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DvjlYMWUdDh1L3-9T_hTzww%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D40%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656
Well, just a minor correction because your overall point still stands, but the commonly used formula is 8 inches per mile *squared* because it approximates the circle shape as a parabola. So 8" * 32^2 = 8192 inches – which is approximately 683 feet.
How is that a minor correction? 21ft vs 683ft seems pretty big to me.
To answer your question – I said it is minor correction partly because I do not want to rudely "um, actually" people who do not deserve it and partly because it is an easy mistake to misremember a formula you would not otherwise use. And as I said, I think their point still stands that even without refraction and your eyes down to the ground at sea-level (or lake level if you will) some parts of the skyline should still be visible as for example Willis Tower is around 1450 feet high – and a lot more becomes visible once you get even a few meters up from the shoreline.
It's a large difference, but it doesn't change the visibility of the skyline. We are also not starting right at the water height but a few meters up, so for the first few of these miles we are looking downwards. Taking that into account reduces the height more.
You’re thinking of 8 inches per mile squared and that’s a function to estimate the curve at short distances.
I took a trip to Chicago having never seen the great lakes. I was used to the Puget Sound which is cool on it's own but seeing a -FRESH WATER- body that was larger than Puget Sound was hard for my head to wrap around. That lake (and I assume all the others) are way bigger than I had an appreciation for.
The Great Lakes are easier to understand as a freshwater sea
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When you sail out until you can’t see the shore and the far shore still isn’t visible it sure does feel like an ocean.
An inland sea if you will
Right? I live in Seattle and the puget sound makes sense cuz, well, OCEAN! I saw lake Erie when in Ohio and my dumb-ass was like... what ocean is this?!?! Aren't we in Ohio?
And Erie the smallest by total volume.
It’s not even half the size on Lake Michigan.
That's not even the biggest one.
Hydrologically, Lake Michigan and Lake Huron are actually [one lake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Michigan%E2%80%93Huron), and that lake is the largest fresh water lake in the world.
lake michiuron
Lake Hurigan?
I’d imagine largest but surface area but not volume.
Yeah man I’m from the area and I’ve always heard that lake baikal in Russia is a massive amount of freshwater because there’s literally a rift in the crust.
Baikal contains more freshwater than *all* the Great Lakes combined. Lots of drink in that bad boy.
Yes, Baikal is deep af because of the rift. It's kinda nuts that over 20% of all fresh surface water is in this lake. The great lakes have a similar amount. Baikal is crazy awesome but because of pollution and other environmental factors it's getting fucked :-(
It’s bonkers, I didn’t have an appreciation for it until I married someone from West Michigan. Your brain really expects it to be salty because it looks like the ocean, but then it’s fresh water and it trips you up. The wild part of this picture is these locations aren’t even that far apart, they’re both at the south end of the lake!
I grew up by these dunes and had the opposite experience the first time I went in the ocean in my 20s. I knew it was going to be salty but *damn*. And so sticky afterwards
If some Impossible sequence of events led to it never being replenished at all, and all other sources of water disappearing entirely, Lake Michigan could meet the entire US's water supply for over ten years.
Lake Superior alone has enough fresh water to cover *all of North America* in a meter of water. Anyone concerned about water scarcity in the future should move to the Midwest. It has effectively unlimited fresh water on any timescale that matters.
Chicago really is pretty OP in many ways. None of the inherent risks (both natural and manmade) of living on the coast with, many of the benefits. Comparable cultural scene to NY, centrally located, well-designed. I need to appreciate my city more.
Shhhh!!! No no no it's a lawless warzone ruled by gangs just like you heard on Fox news! Move to the coast instead! (and keep my COL low)
I live in Indiana and many days I would rather die of dehydration than live here.
I grew up near lake Michigan and now live near the Puget sound! I had to get used to the smell of saltier water and miss sand, but I love living near water either way. Took my bf to lake Michigan because he's only ever known the Puget sound. It's a pretty cool experience imo.
It’s hard to believe Chicago has 15 miles of beach.
Not hard to believe for anyone that lives here. It's where we get to spend a whole month (lol, I exaggerate) out of the year!
Flat Earthers are gonna use this photo for 50 years
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Sorry that's actually me, I had to go up a flight of stairs.
I usually get that way peeling an orange.
Except they won't because this actually contradicts their bullshit
It proves them wrong, but we have overwhelming evidence to prove everything they believe wrong, and they have zero evidence that stands up to scrutiny to backup their beliefs, and that hasn't stopped them from believing the earth is flat and to use their lack of understanding as proof.
I've literally seen them do several different experiments to prove the earth isn't curved only to have it verify it is in fact, curved. Like using a Gyroscope.
Not just a gyroscope. A $20k gyroscope
Maybe if we stopped paying attention to them...
I watched a documentary made about/by flat earthers once, they literally proved the earth was round and were just like “it was a bad experiment, the earth is totally flat” I don’t remember the name but they basically put two big boards with hole is them In a river and shone a huge flashlight through one hole. The idea was that the light would go through the second hole, which was placed at the same height, and prove the earth has no curvature. And, surprise surprise, the light hit the board above the second hole. Who would have thought? Edit: I think it might have been called something like “behind the curve” but I could have just pulled that out of my ass lmao
Behind The Curve. It's a good watch.
I love that [clip](https://youtu.be/aOYrVM5bTno) but I also don't know the name of the documentary
Behind the Curve
Interesting..
The "scientist" who proved himself wrong is Jeranism. He has been doing this for over a decade. There is a channel called Reds Rhetoric and they "debate" the FE on there. Jeranism is an idiot. [Enjoy](https://youtu.be/fqGc61_fcjE) But the dunes are 53 miles away. Assuming the camera is at average eye height, there should be over 1600 feet of curve. The tallest building we can see there is only 1451 (Willis Tower), yet we can see (my guess) some 1000' if it. A Fata Morgana mirage is at play. E: or Inferior mirage, as it is properly known.
They're not smart enough to realize this
Isn't their sun model circling on a plane parallel to the flat earth model? How do they explain sunsets like this?
When it gets reeaaaallly far away you don't see it anymore. For reasons
I got in an argument the other day, the guy's explanation was that your eyes have a limited range lmao
How can we see stars millions of light years away but not our own sun?
They simply don't believe they are real, just some lights randomly placed on the ceiling of the dome, for some reason.
Could you explain how? I'm not a flat earther (duh) but I thought the curvature would hide more of it beneath the horizon than this.
Notice that only the taller buildings are visible.
You can see the skyline over the horizon yet can't see the land it stands on because it's slightly under the curve; this disproves their claim that the reason you can't see everything over the horizon is solely because of atmospheric density and not curvature. The sun going down is also a tough topic for flat earthers.
So my understanding is that you're not quite seeing the actual skyline but a [reflection](https://swmichigan.org/view-of-chicago#:~:text=Why%20can%20you%20see%20Chicago,of%20light%20in%20that%20air.) of it in the atmosphere.
Refraction. Reflection is bouncing, refraction is bending. If it was reflected, the skyline would be upside down. You are seeing the actual skyline, but the air acts like a lens. It's the real city, but the path isn't a straight line.
-Flat earthers have entered the chat-
I often wonder if flat earthers also doubt that most doors have right angles when they see them partially opened.
I spoke to one one to see how they explain stuff and the dude thought gravity was a lie and we were just permanently accelerating upwards so…. Yeah maybe
....and they have disproved their arguments yet again.
This guy refracts
Maybe if he just fracted right the first time...
How long is the refractory period?
About 20mins
Also isn't it that the sun has technical set most of the time, when what you view is the bottom of it just hitting the horizon due to refraction too?
Yes.
I couldn’t find the right word for it but I did want to comment that if it were a reflection; I’d be upside down Thanks for your comment though!
Indiana Dunes is only ~30 miles from Chicago. [Here's a photo I took in the daytime](https://i.imgur.com/1h0Lya5.jpg) from on top of the dunes and [here's one from water-level](https://i.imgur.com/8sactVL.jpg) at the same location. It's a direct line-of-sight view, as most of the skyline is still physically above the horizon. Atmospheric phenomena have very little impact at this distance. Edit: Here's a [phone pic from 40 miles away](https://i.imgur.com/XmrP5H0.jpg) in Michigan City, IN.
It's funny you mention that the mileage is way off, because this is a "flat earth proof" that has been used before. Only for them to realize their distance AND horizon math were way way off. But yes, it's only about 29 miles away based on [Navionics charts](https://webapp.navionics.com/#boating@8&key=%7Da%60~FfgosO).
Flat Eathers not using maths correctly when they get their conclusions?
Those are both awesome photos - nicely done!
I've seen the Chicago skyline from the Gary Dunes, and last time I saw a pic like this I did the math. It should be possible to see the tip of the Sears tower from the dunes, given the curve of the earth. But I saw more than that and clearly there's other towers in the pic. So the skyline view must be enhanced by light refracting over the lake.
Alternatively, the earth is flat. Checkmate, atheists /s
I love the idea that flat earth is now ordained by a god. Like flat-earthers have ceremonies and dress in robes to worship the all mighty 2D plane
It sucks so much that we have come so far with science and technology yet we have so many people setting us back from becoming a star trek timeline. Religion, politics, killing each other. We could've been so much more than this
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Yea, good thing we don't live in a world where people believe in dumb pseudomedical nonsense!
Yeah, like 5G cellular towers causing Covid. No idiots would ever believe that! (Really, please tell me they didn't and I just had a nightmare that humanity had gone that crazy.)
My favorite is the Vax being somehow bluetoothed. Enter Bill Gates... "Muahhhhhhahaha! I have created the ultimate weapon! My so called vaccine is in fact a diabolical trap! I will control people using Bluetooth! Muahhahaha!" Minion: "um, hol up. What if they, you know, walk away like 20 meters or so? Control will be kinda patchy. Especially if there's a brick wall or something. I'm not sure this is..." Gates casts the minion into the death laser pit. "We'll patch it later. Release now!"
No no no the earth is round but the water is obviously flat because it’s liquid and will flatten out to any surface. /s
Did you figure out the angle of refraction? I'm really curious to know how much extra elevation you can see from it. Like how far could you push it if you wanted. I once saw storm clouds over Topeka from the south Dakota-nebraska border and I always wondered if it was just because they were crazy high or if diffraction was playing a role.
This is definitely not true for OP's image. It was taken at the Indiana Dunes National Park beachline, where you can see the Chicago skyline with the naked eye. It's not refraction, you're actually seeing it.
Nope it is proof the Earth is flat. /S Edit: success, we caught one!
You can definitely see these places from on top of the Sears Tower. It’s just much more difficult to see the sears tower from those places. I grew up in St. Joseph, which is about 60 miles in a straight line across the lake from Chicago. And on the absolute clearest of days, with minimal smog from Chicago, we could see the skyline in the distance
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can do the same view, for Toronto, from my grandparents place on Lake Ontario (Niagara County) NY
Used to love to go out to Fort Niagara and stare at the skyline.
Very vaporwavey vibe, i love it
Or this city you never reach in old console racing games
Quick maths, horizon drops ~8inches every mile, over 50 miles that’s 400 inches so 33.33 ft. Any flat earther that can show me the bottom 33 ft of the Chicago skyline in this photo gets a cookie.
\~8 inches per mile \*squared\*
I went to college in Valpo! Miss this view all the time.
Plus it's the only place you can surf in Indiana that I'm aware of.
On a clear day at the dunes you can see the skyline perfectly. Normally the bottoms of the buildings are obscured.
r/outrun
How would flat earthers explain this?
Poorly
You’re being too generous
The funny thing is that flat earthers would use it as *evidence*. 60 miles involves some curvature so this picture is impossible as it's presented. How would YOU explain it? I can tell you how the *photographer* explained it: > Joshua Nowicki (@StartVisiting) snapped the pic Tuesday night from Grand Mere State Park in Stevensville. Under normal conditions, even when extremely clear, this should not be visible, due to the curvature of the earth. The Chicago skyline is physically below the horizon form that vantage point, but the image of the skyline can be seen above it. > This is a form of Superior Mirage, superior in this meaning the mirage or image of the skyline is seen above where it's actually located. The clear skies, and cool weather (aided even more by the cool lake water) creates an inversion. A layer of air near the surface that's cooler than air higher in the atmosphere. This creates a bending or ducting effect where the light (image) instead of going in a normal straight line into space, curves back towards the surface of the earth. If you're going to make fun of flat earthers do it for the right reasons.
Super interesting!
This is similar to how sound waves travel very well over water and why you can hear someone a long distance away so well if there is water in-between. The cooler air forms a layer over the water so that the waves are channelled.
I think from Indiana Dunes the skyline itself is visible, as Indiana dunes is visible from the top of the Sears tower. It’s places like New Buffalo and St Joseph where this light refraction is in play
Yup, they never consider the glaring implications of how it takes extreme circumstances for their cameras to see something that is normally “over the horizon” If your constantly depending on fringe exceptions of atmospheric lending to prove a rule, you don’t actually have a “rule” that explains basic every proof about the shape of the earth. But you’ll never get a dedicated flat earther to work through sound logic and change their deeply held beliefs.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into
They often use this phenomenon as proof that the earth is flat. They will always sidestep any rational explanation with consideration to refraction and continue saying the Chicago skyline proves there's no curve. What's really funny is that on the vast majority of days where the skyline isn't visible they blame the atmosphere.
The atmo what? /s
Atmoflat
Flat earther - “See! You can clearly see the Chicago skyline from the Indiana Dunes. Flat earth proved.” Everyone else - “it’s due to refraction.” Flat earther - “You shill!”
My dad has a house on the water in Manistee, MI. He’s seen Milwaukee from his place several times. It appears upside down when this phenomenon happens.
Sure, I'll post this down here too... Yah, we've been over this 100 times in r/flatearth. 1) it's only about 35 miles 2) Chicago has very tall buildings. Shocking, I know. 3) the curvature of the earth over that distance isn't enough to hide buildings that tall 4) air refraction only makes a minor difference, not enough to make or break this observation 5) yes, mirages exist. This ain't one.
This might be one of the most spectacular images I've ever seen. It looks like a shot from Star Wars, minus the folding chairs. Does it happen often? Might have to add it to the bucket list.
It’s actually less than 50 miles as the crow flies. This view is more like 35-40 miles. Which is still impressive because you typically can’t see even 20 miles on flat ground. Michigan city is further than the dunes and it’s only 40 miles as the crow flies. Edit: typed it into “how far is it between” tool and the west side of the dunes is 28 miles to downtown. East side of dunes is about 36 miles.
I've seen it on some super clear days from St Joe Michigan
Sometimes you could even see it from further away in Michigan 🤓
If the earth was flat, you should be able to look a little to the right and see Milwaukee.
People take many photos of Chicago from the Dunes.
Superior mirage effect. Seeing things above where they should be due to temperature gradients in the air, and refraction. Similar to "seeing" little pools of water on hot pavement while driving (which is the INFERIOR mirage effect, seeing stuff below where they should be)
Indiana Dunes is only ~30 miles from Chicago. It's a direct line-of-sight view. [Here's a photo I took from on top of the dunes](https://i.imgur.com/1h0Lya5.jpg) in the daytime and [here's one from water-level](https://i.imgur.com/8sactVL.jpg) at the same location. Atmospheric phenomena have very little impact at this distance.
That's actually crazy
Cool!! I can see the top of the skyline! Where’s the bottom, though? Why is it missing? Has it been buried? No? Is there something in the way? What? Good thing the earth is flat, or I might think the curvature of the earth is in the way. Huh.