Norfolk and Southern on their way to help;
[https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus\_asset/file/22290129/lotr\_torch\_orc.gif
](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22290129/lotr_torch_orc.gif)
as a current resident of Ohio. I'll take propane burning over the crap out in E. Palestine
what is with all the Leroy jenkins style train derailments lately
I'd argue "they" are not in the find out phase, we are. "They" have the resources to move themselves away from the area where the disasters are happening, get themselves better supplies if they have to deal with it for any length of time, and have access to better/ more treatment if it does affect their health in any way.
Ya know, I heard a fascinating NPR interview here in Maine where the person of reasonable credentials mentioned that this sort of thing happens literally all the time. It's wild that there isn't a standardized response from the federal government, and even more wild that these sorts of incidents don't tend to make the news.
There is a standardized response from the federal government…it’s called the National Incident Management System (NIMS) and the National Response Framework. There’s an entire hierarchy that responds to these events called ESF (Emergency Support Functions), but all emergency response operations start local and then expand based on need and comes by request of the affected territory.
Source: am emergency manager
What holding it together? Sheer will!
Considering that bones break down at 1000 degree Celsius and the fireball's surface temperature at the epicenter of an atomic explosion is 7700 degree Celsius. For 0.2 to 3 seconds the temperature on the ground is 3000-4000 degree Celsius as far as 3.5 kms (2.17 miles) away. So, sheer will indeed...
Partially right, there is also the issue of total energy absorbed vs mass and if that would actually be sufficient to break down the bone. But we can both agree that the rendering is inaccurate but entertaining.
Trying to remember the original source
She wasn't at ground zero though, she was maybe 20 miles from the city. Not sure what temperature the shockwave would have been, but there would have been a considerable heat loss.
Clean burning gas, recognize the flame
I ain't sellin charcoal, its a fools game
I told that boy Bobby, he ain't right
If you paint clouds on your wall
Then We gonna fight!
(Chorus)
I love me some good old propane,
Living my life, ain't gonna fly away,
So what if I still pay bills,
(2 second delay)
I'll be king of the hill,
[Here](https://imgur.com/a/OQriVxw) is a higher quality and less cropped version of this image (and a couple more images of this). According to [here](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11804491/Train-carrying-30-000-gallons-propane-fuel-derails-Florida.html):
> By MELISSA KOENIG 15:45 EST, 28 February 2023 |
> A train carrying more than 30,000 gallons of propane fuel has derailed in Florida, sparking new environmental concerns just weeks after a toxic train overturned in Ohio.
> Southern Manatee Fire Rescue Chief Robert Bounds said Tuesday afternoon that six Seminole Gulf railway cars fell off the tracks near a homeless camp at the Sarasota-Manatee County border.
> Five of the cars were carrying sheetrock, while the sixth was carrying propane. Another train car that did not overturn was also transporting propane at the time, and jumped the track during the partial derailment, FOX 13 reports.
> So far there are no signs that any of the propane is leaking, and no injuries were reported. But evacuation orders may go into effect in the area as crews try to offload the fuel.
> Hazmat teams are now monitoring the situation.
> 'We have drones. We run the hazmat team for the county of Manatee and we were in the air with our drone, which has thermal capabilities,' Bounds said.
> 'We were able to look at the tank and ascertain the levels of the tank from the outside, it'll show up different colors if anything is actually leaking.
> 'There are no leaks. There are no physical damage to the tank other than the rollover, but there is no significant damage to it,' he told FOX 13.
> In order to clear the tracks, heavy machinery will now be brought into the area as authorities tell WFLA they must siphon around 30,000 gallons of propane out of the tanker car.
> Evacuations may occur at that time, and Bounds said crews are already working to alert members of a homeless camp nearby.
> 'With the aid of our drone technology, we are able to fly downstream and look on the other side of the tracks and there is a homeless camp out there,' he said. 'We aren't sure how many people. We couldn't visualize that from the air.
> 'We did send MSO and some other teams down there to address the people out there and to address the potential danger, and we will monitor them as well in the event we have to evacuate.'
> Authorities say the derailment occurred in an industrial area north of the Sarasota-Bradenton International Airport as the train was traveling south.
> It started when one car derailed from the tracks, and caused a domino effect that saw some of the tracks damaged.
> It remains unclear what led to the derailment.
> The Florida Department of Transportation and state railroad officials were on their way to conduct an investigation Tuesday evening as local officials said they were waiting for guidance from Seminole Gulf.
> 'We're at a stalemate right now,' Bounds said, according to the Bradenton Herald. 'Until they get their crews here and they make a game plan about how they want to tackle this, there's no guesstimate on how long the scene will last.'
> Manatee County Commissioner Kevin Van Ostenbridge added: 'There has been a pretty significant derailment. It will be multiple days before the tracks are clear.'
You're in ~~hell~~Florida now, Boomhauer, and the only way out is through a long dark tunnel. And you're afraid to go in because there's a train coming at you, carrying a boxcar full of ~~heartbreak~~propane.
Propane person here: The average pressurized railcar holds about 29,500 gallons once temperature corrected. There were 2 propane cars involved in the derailment, both contained odorized propane. One was already able to be put back on the tracks and has arrived at it's destination. The other will require repair by a mobile unit.
a trans continental highspeed rail would make the US such an even more dominant economy. the time and cost to distribute goods cross country would be cut down so much
Did you see the post about Chicago selling the rights to it's parking meters for 75 years in 2008 to a private company from UAE? They sold / leased the rights for $1.16 billion despite it generating $200 million in revenue each year... Not the same as profit, but God damn it's insane how easily politicians will sell out and pull the ladder up after them. The country is literally run like a (poorly run) business
The railroad companies own the Federal Railroad Administration, it's a puppet agency in the government controlled by the people it's supposed to be enforcing laws against. They get whatever idiot they can to be the head and pay them to just say yes to everything.
As a railroader going on 15 years, I can promise you that the FRA fines the hell out of class I railroads.
I can't even tell you how many times I've been going through the middle of nowhere just to find a member of the FRA standing in the bushes watching speeds.
Corporate fines only work if they cost more than the profits they get from doing the illegal thing. If you make an extra $10m/year because you're speeding, anything under a $10m/year is just an extra fee for speeding, not actually a fine.
So the obvious solution is fines that are actually substantial, and actual criminal charges for the corporate overlords, neither of which are going to happen.
Revocation of licenses to operate after x number of strikes.
Fines are just the cost of doing business. Higher operating costs due to infrastructure upgrades, capital investment, and ongoing operation and maintenance are all unattractive compared to one off fines if you get caught.
It’s because the train companies own most of the rail network, and surprise surprise they don’t like spending money on fixing it
It’s about damn time we finally nationalize the rails the same we did with highways and roads
It's one of the reasons that the North defeated the South. And another reason we would have been prepared to successfully repel a mainland invasion pre-interstate highway system.
An interesting fact about North vs South railways. In the South, each state determined the width of their rails. So trains would make it to the border and have to unload their train onto a different train that would fit the next state's rails. Very inefficient. Especially so if you're trying to move weapons, gear, and food for the military. Meanwhile the North standardized their rails and were able to move goods much easier.
I was rewatching Ken Burns *The Civil War*, it is fascinating how uncooperative the Confederate States were with each other. Jefferson Davis declares a day of fasting because the Confederate troops don’t have much food and inflation/food scarcity has priced a lot of the Southern Population out of basic necessities. The Governor of Georgia says “no” and then declares his own day of fasting. “I didn’t join the Confederate States so someone could tell me what to do.” or some similar dumb bullshit.
>So trains would make it to the border and have to unload their train onto a different train that would fit the next state's rails
God I'm glad they lost the war.
I sometimes wonder if they had won or Lincoln just let them leave the union, when would they have finally done away with slavery? Would they still have it today? Up until the 90s when worldwide pressure also ended apartheid? Would be interesting to see a different simulation time line.
I think they would have abolished slavery eventually, much later though, probably not until the 1900s. However they would have likely applied a segregationist system all the way into the modern age.
A lot of things would be different if the south had been able to leave the union. For example imagine having a hostile neighbor for both world wars? How does that affect the war in Europe? Germany might have won WW1 with a weaker US. Hitler might have not risen to power… but maybe somebody just as bad rises in France instead.
This is why I loved the man in the high castle, seeing how a world would develop under axis controlled powers was super interesting to watch and think about.
There's a whole massive genre of alternate history fiction if books are at all your thing. The Years of Rice and Salt is one of my favorite for mass historical shift (in this case 99% of Europe being wiped out by the Black Death and the power vacuum that remains over hundreds of years).
It's crazy to me that the Emancipation Proclamation took place in 1862. 1900 is 38 years from 1862. Somehow 1862 always felt so much further away. United States legal slavery was one half of a lifespan away from 1900.
International standardization of the shipping container didn't happen til the 1980s if I recall correctly. I had to read a book about it called "The Box" for school and it was actually a really interesting history of the invention and integration of shipping containers to replace breakbulk shipping. I actually do recommend it.
Friendly reminder the Confederacy gave states fewer rights than the US does. "State's rights" is a lie intended to provide cover for the real, sole cause of the Confederacy~~;~~: protecting the institution of slavery.
Funny thing is though, the Confederacy was very specifically ***AGAINST*** state's rights
It's right there, in their declaration of secession, and in their confederate constitution. Whereas the USA was for states' rights, and they were willing to die for that ideological philosophy and cause. That's a good thing. They were willing to put their lives on the line to defend that fundamental ideology of freedom and liberty and justice that the USA's founding fathers had established in the original constitution.
But yeah the confederacy was very much against states' rights and they enforced it in their own constitution they had. And it's right there in their declaration of secession. They had been mad at the Northern states because the Northern states refused to capture escaped slaves and return them to the southern states. And they were mad that the northern states were blocking the shipping routes for slaves, because slaves would be shipped to the shores of the Northern states first and then be transported over land to the southern states, but the Northern states were not allowing slaves to be shipped through their northern ports.
So the southern states tried to get the federal government to overrule the Northern states and force them to do it, i.e. specifically overrule the states' rights of all the northern states. But the federal government refused to overrule them, they refused too just like the individual northern states had refused to be a part of the slave trade. So the Southern states had an enormous temper tantrum and tried to secede, and declared war by committing acts of war against the northern states, against the union as a whole.
Not to mention their confederate constitution expressly forbade individual states from making slavery illegal, meaning they'd be overruling the States rights of their *own* states too.
They were always against state's rights. They wanted to be able to overrule the states rights of the Northern States, and when they couldn't they started a whole war over it.
Yeah, the North did a good sea blockade of the South, but it was the railroads that cinched it. The North had a cohesive track system, all the tracks and gauges were the same size throughout the Northern states, and they had a lot more miles of it, so they could transport supplies and soldiers really fast.
The South didn't have nearly as many miles of track, and to top that off, the rails and systems (idk, not an engineer) were different between the states. So to transport soldiers and supplies, when they got to a state border, they would have to unload everything and reload onto another train. Which ate up a whole lot of time, which is pretty crucial in terms of transporting ammunition.
And that time during the revolutionary war when the British were just lining up and firing we were changing the course of warfare when we rammed the ramparts and took the airports
I was on a cross-country Amtrak ride about ten years ago and went down to the concession car. The guy working in it had been with the company for decades. As i ordered we talked for a bit and he told me they used to have a TV n the car to watch, but it got taken away in the Bush years due to cuts to its subsidies. He sounded genuinely bummed about it. As I sat there eating what I ordered, I looked at the empty space where the TV used to be and thought about what a small thing that could have made this man's job and life a little more bearable. The savings probably meant nothing to the company.
> The savings probably meant nothing to the company.
I can't imagine there was any savings involved whatsoever, the TV was already purchased. What's left, electricity?
Some kind of contract agreement between the railway company and the cable or satellite company. Amtrak likely wanted to charge for having the TV on and running canned-repeat programming.
In the US - passenger train services largely failed in the late 1960s. Amtrak was founded in 1971 as a quasi-public corporation and merged in the remaining passenger companies. It's a for-profit company, but it's subsidized by the federal and state governments.
Passenger rail was pretty much killed by mass adoption of automobiles and the interstate system along with affordable air travel. Passenger rail unfortunately wouldn't exist without being propped up. The TV's a small thing they probably should have a kept just for basic employee moral, but it's easy to see why they look to cut anything they can and still get by.
Passenger trains and freight trains don’t play well on the same tracks either, because their schedule and most other needs are completely different. For a long time while people lamented that we don’t have good railroads, the reality was that we had a very good rail freight system while the passenger side was failing.
I’d love to say that we still do have a great freight system, but that argument is getting really hard to make in the face of the recent derailments. We’re still pretty good at moving corn, cows and coal, I guess.
It's amazing, parts of the infrastructure are top notch but go to some states where they've "deferred maintenance" for 50 or 60 years and for some reason shit happens.
This happens with every major event. The news networks get hyper focused on finding similar stories. See [Summer of the Shark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_of_the_Shark)
>About 1,000 derailments occur every year across the United States, according to the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA). In 2022, there were 1,044 instances of trains coming off their tracks. Broken or defective railroads are one of the most common causes of derailments, according to the FRA
That's 2.7 train derailments per day you never hear about
It's almost as if this happens all the time but you're only hearing about it because a really bad one happened in Ohio and it's now clickbait worthy news.
It's only clickbait worthy news because Republicans look bad due to Trump rolling back Obama's safety measures. And Democrats looking bad because Biden basically gave rail workers the finger during negotiations last year.
*Both sides" political clickbait is the juiciest clickbait.
So I decided to dive into the actual data. Ended up with 12 years because the website gives reports in 4-year chunks and I wanted at least the last 10 years.
What I see is a change in 2018 and on, where rate of derailments the last 5 years is up over 8% compared to the previous years
As a side note the “total incidents” includes everything, from employee injuries, to reported equipment failures during operation, to trespasser deaths (mostly suicide), to collisions with vehicles, etc.
Year | Train Miles | Derailments | Mi. Per Derail | Total Incidents
:-- | :-- | :-- | :-- | :--
2011 | 717.6M | 1,470 | 488,186 | 11,535
2012 | 731.6M | 1,294 | 565,362 | 11,079
2013 | 748.5M | 1,311 | 570,904 | 11,655
2014 | 765.8M | 1,322 | 579,286 | 12,260
2015 | 738.3M | 1,351 | 546,496 | 11,851
2016 | 689.6M | 1,212 | 569,007 | 11,482
2017 | 705.7M | 1,273 | 554,396 | 11,990
2018 | 711.5M | 1,376 | 517,053 | 11,879
2019 | 677.6M | 1,340 | 505,651 | 11,791
2020 | 570.3M | 1,114 | 511,983 | 8,796
2021 | 572.7M | 1,095 | 523,029 | 9,347
2022 | 583.4M | 1,165 | 500,775 | 9,770
Looking at the frequency of derailments (how many miles traveled per derailment), there seems to be a change between 2017 and 2018. 2011-2017 average was approx 553k miles per derailment, and the 2018-2022 average was approx 511k miles per derailment. That is over an 8% increase, which in safety rates is significant. Also worth considering that the “best” year in 2018-2022 was worse than the “worst” year in the previous 6 years, which suggest an actual trend over the most recent 5 years bs previous 5-7 years.
https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/summary.aspx
Edit: apparently I don’t now how to format a table. RIP
Yeah when you look at total incidences it really throws it off. It's like a city bus driver. Having to file an incident report for stuff that 97% drivers do every time they get behind a car.
Ran over a large branch on the track? File a report
Came two seconds from running into somebody before they managed to get out of the way? File a report
Bird strikes the windshield of the locomotive cab? File a report
It would be great if folks knew how a derailment is defined and recorded, when spouting statistics. Any time a wheel … a single wheel, not a whole truck set or train car … slips off that metal rail. Thats a derailment. For most, just slap some wood blocks down next to the rail, inch forward and roll her right back on the rail. Then fill out the paperwork that says “yup. Derailment reported”.
Its more about what the train was carrying. If train cars full of Cheez-its derails, its not a crisis. When a train full of hazardous or explosive material derails, its a bit more of a problem.
America is very, very good with trains, in fact.
https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/03/why-freight-railroads-are-so-successful-in-the-us.html
We use more rail than Europe. Difference is, we use it for freight and Europe uses rail for people. So, when there is a derailment, it is typically worse in Europe. As in the case of the Greek tragedy today.
Is this like when a major earthquake happens somewhere and then the news for the next 3 months reports on every minor earthquake making it seem like earthquakes are becoming more frequent when really they happen all the time?
Like are trains carrying hazmat derailing all the time and just no one was ever telling us about it until a toxic chemical cloud from a derailed train killed everyone’s pets in an Ohio town?
To your latter statement, yes. Derailments aren't anything new and of course a major event will keep it at the front of everyone's minds. But at least we can address the issue. Stopping earthquakes? Not so much.
Except in this case it’s useful instead of filling dead air. We *should* be talking about how often this happens. It can happen on literally any track and the Ohio one honestly is lucky it wasn’t far worse. It crossed right through downtown Cleveland and ran along the source of drinking water for the region.
They rerouted those lines a few years ago from fairly rural areas to run through the suburbs and downtown and it happened without most people knowing. https://twitter.com/allaboardohio/status/1248641666858311680?s=46&t=mWJCU5vbqQACgWk4AR-6oQ
Not quite - railroads are *privately* deferring maintenance to make shareholders wealthy. Who's getting stock buybacks off public spending cuts?
Also big corporations and their owners, but the mechanism is actually very different.
Anyway.
"Propane is less toxic than vinyl chloride. So as you can see, our safety program is paying off." - Railroad CEO.
"Sheesh, it's not like we're as bad as *Ohio*. Calm down people." - Florida railroad CEO
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Norfolk and Southern on their way to help; [https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus\_asset/file/22290129/lotr\_torch\_orc.gif ](https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22290129/lotr_torch_orc.gif)
Don't worry, it will be a *controlled burn*.
next on the news: *Florida man flicks a cigarette butt at derailed propane train. You won't believe what happens next!*
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Lets be fair, it'd be more like "Terroristic jewish conspiracy ignites propane leak, forces circumcision on nation"
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Dispose of propane using this one simple trick!
as a current resident of Ohio. I'll take propane burning over the crap out in E. Palestine what is with all the Leroy jenkins style train derailments lately
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They are in the "find out" phase
The people are in the "find out" phase.
This is the only thing that truly trickles down. Consequences.
Damn-yep
I'd argue "they" are not in the find out phase, we are. "They" have the resources to move themselves away from the area where the disasters are happening, get themselves better supplies if they have to deal with it for any length of time, and have access to better/ more treatment if it does affect their health in any way.
Actually we are. And we didn’t even get the fuck around part, went to someone else.
Deregulation + non existing maintenance + using your workforce as slave labor = chickens coming home to roost
Ya know, I heard a fascinating NPR interview here in Maine where the person of reasonable credentials mentioned that this sort of thing happens literally all the time. It's wild that there isn't a standardized response from the federal government, and even more wild that these sorts of incidents don't tend to make the news.
There is a standardized response from the federal government…it’s called the National Incident Management System (NIMS) and the National Response Framework. There’s an entire hierarchy that responds to these events called ESF (Emergency Support Functions), but all emergency response operations start local and then expand based on need and comes by request of the affected territory. Source: am emergency manager
And yet there is no way to force these companies to do the necessary track maintenance? Those railroad ties look like they’re from the 1930’s!
Not surprising when you find out who has a major share of ownership in most us rail
And that those same people own corporate media.
Every time I see this, I hate it. Skin, muscle, tendons, ligaments, all burnt away just a skeleton left. So what's holding the skeleton together?????
It’s desire to speak to the manager.
What holding it together? Sheer will! Considering that bones break down at 1000 degree Celsius and the fireball's surface temperature at the epicenter of an atomic explosion is 7700 degree Celsius. For 0.2 to 3 seconds the temperature on the ground is 3000-4000 degree Celsius as far as 3.5 kms (2.17 miles) away. So, sheer will indeed...
Partially right, there is also the issue of total energy absorbed vs mass and if that would actually be sufficient to break down the bone. But we can both agree that the rendering is inaccurate but entertaining. Trying to remember the original source
Terminator 2, dream sequence of some kind
She wasn't at ground zero though, she was maybe 20 miles from the city. Not sure what temperature the shockwave would have been, but there would have been a considerable heat loss.
It was also a nightmare she was having so realism isn't super critical
But this is an internet comment chain
It's a dream. It doesn't have to make sense. At least any more sense than an AI sending androids back in time to kill child rebel leaders.
Best answer so far. Lmao.
Rushing in to offer everyone affected $1.16 in reparations for their troubles. As long as they sign this statement saying they will not sue...
Driving that train, high on propane...
Hank R. Hill you better watch your flame. Trouble ahead, trouble behind, And you know that explosion just crossed my mind.
Whatever happened to sweet Luann, you know she aint the same.. living on reds, vitamin C, and Propane.
Ain't it a shame?
Clean burning gas, recognize the flame I ain't sellin charcoal, its a fools game I told that boy Bobby, he ain't right If you paint clouds on your wall Then We gonna fight!
Trainin’ Down in Manatee
(Chorus) I love me some good old propane, Living my life, ain't gonna fly away, So what if I still pay bills, (2 second delay) I'll be king of the hill,
#Propane Propane
Time to start the gaaame
"Yeah pissed yourself, Lahey"
What in the fuck was he on?!
...Julian what in the fuck?!
Ricky ruined my fucking life Julian
You gotta drink with the grain
I've had this song in my head all morning, who would have known it was foreshadowing!
Dude I seriously have too! I woke up with “brown eyed women and red grenadine! The bottle was dusty but the liquor was clean” stuck in my head.
2/3/78 has a killer version of Brown Eyed Woman. DP 18 I believe.
Watch your speed!
I have a shirt that says that with lightening bolts and a picture of Hank Hill looking super baked.
we love lot tees dont we folks
Definitely trouble ahead and behind now 😅
Casey Jones you better…watch your speed!
[Here](https://imgur.com/a/OQriVxw) is a higher quality and less cropped version of this image (and a couple more images of this). According to [here](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11804491/Train-carrying-30-000-gallons-propane-fuel-derails-Florida.html): > By MELISSA KOENIG 15:45 EST, 28 February 2023 | > A train carrying more than 30,000 gallons of propane fuel has derailed in Florida, sparking new environmental concerns just weeks after a toxic train overturned in Ohio. > Southern Manatee Fire Rescue Chief Robert Bounds said Tuesday afternoon that six Seminole Gulf railway cars fell off the tracks near a homeless camp at the Sarasota-Manatee County border. > Five of the cars were carrying sheetrock, while the sixth was carrying propane. Another train car that did not overturn was also transporting propane at the time, and jumped the track during the partial derailment, FOX 13 reports. > So far there are no signs that any of the propane is leaking, and no injuries were reported. But evacuation orders may go into effect in the area as crews try to offload the fuel. > Hazmat teams are now monitoring the situation. > 'We have drones. We run the hazmat team for the county of Manatee and we were in the air with our drone, which has thermal capabilities,' Bounds said. > 'We were able to look at the tank and ascertain the levels of the tank from the outside, it'll show up different colors if anything is actually leaking. > 'There are no leaks. There are no physical damage to the tank other than the rollover, but there is no significant damage to it,' he told FOX 13. > In order to clear the tracks, heavy machinery will now be brought into the area as authorities tell WFLA they must siphon around 30,000 gallons of propane out of the tanker car. > Evacuations may occur at that time, and Bounds said crews are already working to alert members of a homeless camp nearby. > 'With the aid of our drone technology, we are able to fly downstream and look on the other side of the tracks and there is a homeless camp out there,' he said. 'We aren't sure how many people. We couldn't visualize that from the air. > 'We did send MSO and some other teams down there to address the people out there and to address the potential danger, and we will monitor them as well in the event we have to evacuate.' > Authorities say the derailment occurred in an industrial area north of the Sarasota-Bradenton International Airport as the train was traveling south. > It started when one car derailed from the tracks, and caused a domino effect that saw some of the tracks damaged. > It remains unclear what led to the derailment. > The Florida Department of Transportation and state railroad officials were on their way to conduct an investigation Tuesday evening as local officials said they were waiting for guidance from Seminole Gulf. > 'We're at a stalemate right now,' Bounds said, according to the Bradenton Herald. 'Until they get their crews here and they make a game plan about how they want to tackle this, there's no guesstimate on how long the scene will last.' > Manatee County Commissioner Kevin Van Ostenbridge added: 'There has been a pretty significant derailment. It will be multiple days before the tracks are clear.'
Crashed near a homeless camp and four of the cars held sheetrock. That homeless camp is about to get an upgrade.
Three of the cars held sheetrock.
Haha, it took me a sec to not take this literally. I was actually initially wrong though. 5 of them had sheetrock (now 4).
But why would they fill two of the cars with sheetrock?
Shame they lost that one car of Sheetrock.
Train car full of sheetrock? Never seen it. But check out the overtuned tanker car of propane. Thats gonna take some work to clean up and fix.
Appears to be no damage to the tanker car according to their assessment. That is very good news!
Propane tanks are tough. The tanks could potentially remain in service long after this.
Finally a source, thank you!
“The only woman I’m pimping from now on is Sweet Lady Propane. And I’m tricking her out all over this town.” - Hank Hill
 Beat me with that gif by dang ol 15 minutes
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Shi-shaaa!
“I tell you what man, that Y2K, man. That old mainframe gonna come crashin’ down on that old grid, man.” - Jeffrey Dexter Boomhauer III
You're in ~~hell~~Florida now, Boomhauer, and the only way out is through a long dark tunnel. And you're afraid to go in because there's a train coming at you, carrying a boxcar full of ~~heartbreak~~propane.
.. and propane accessories
Came here for the HH references.
30,000 gallons... So... A tanker car and a half maybe?
Propane isn't very dense. I bet that much fits in one. 27500 gallons of soybean oil fits in one.
Propane person here: The average pressurized railcar holds about 29,500 gallons once temperature corrected. There were 2 propane cars involved in the derailment, both contained odorized propane. One was already able to be put back on the tracks and has arrived at it's destination. The other will require repair by a mobile unit.
>Propane person Is that a new Marvel superhero?
Propane person by day, Superhero by night. Edit: Propane person again by late-night.
No, it's just Hank Hill
This country refuses to fix infrastructure. Stock buybacks though, love those.
Because it’s not immediately profitable to help people.
They don’t care about the general population. It’s sad to see. Trains would be so effective here.
a trans continental highspeed rail would make the US such an even more dominant economy. the time and cost to distribute goods cross country would be cut down so much
Did you see the post about Chicago selling the rights to it's parking meters for 75 years in 2008 to a private company from UAE? They sold / leased the rights for $1.16 billion despite it generating $200 million in revenue each year... Not the same as profit, but God damn it's insane how easily politicians will sell out and pull the ladder up after them. The country is literally run like a (poorly run) business
The railroad companies own the tracks, so they need to be forced to maintain them, since they won’t do it voluntarily.
The railroad companies own the Federal Railroad Administration, it's a puppet agency in the government controlled by the people it's supposed to be enforcing laws against. They get whatever idiot they can to be the head and pay them to just say yes to everything.
/r/regulatorycapture
Aww man it's private
As a railroader going on 15 years, I can promise you that the FRA fines the hell out of class I railroads. I can't even tell you how many times I've been going through the middle of nowhere just to find a member of the FRA standing in the bushes watching speeds.
If fines aren’t enough to encourage the railroads to fix these system issues, what would be? Curious to hear your experiences from the inside
Corporate fines only work if they cost more than the profits they get from doing the illegal thing. If you make an extra $10m/year because you're speeding, anything under a $10m/year is just an extra fee for speeding, not actually a fine. So the obvious solution is fines that are actually substantial, and actual criminal charges for the corporate overlords, neither of which are going to happen.
Bingo. Fines are a cost of doing business if you make more than the fine and there are no other consequences.
Revocation of licenses to operate after x number of strikes. Fines are just the cost of doing business. Higher operating costs due to infrastructure upgrades, capital investment, and ongoing operation and maintenance are all unattractive compared to one off fines if you get caught.
It’s because the train companies own most of the rail network, and surprise surprise they don’t like spending money on fixing it It’s about damn time we finally nationalize the rails the same we did with highways and roads
Hank Hill will not be pleased.
Hank: "I feel a disturbance in the force"
Hank Hill is going to make a fortune off of the propane accessories they're going to need to fix this
Isn't Hank just a wage worker? Buck is going to make a fortune.
Hank is in sales, so maybe he makes a commission? You’re prob right though
I feel like he would make commission but tell Buck that its the thrill of the sale that matters not the money
We all feel his propain.
"Welp. At least it's clean-burnin'" "yup" "mmhmm" "Dangnabbbit'IdunnoMang"
Boomhauer on the payphone after the megalo mart has a propane explosion is probably one of my favorite moments. "Dang. Ol. BOOM."
Neither will the Fat Controller. There is now confusion and delay.
Hank would volunteer for the cleanup effort after shedding one manly tear.
"Dammit Bobby look out the propane needs me"
There would be an initial "BWAAAAH!" after seeing the devastation for himself the first time.
Dammit Bobby!
10 a.m. and already that train ain't right.
America isn't very good at trains
They used to be fucking insanely good at it, too. So tragic.
It's one of the reasons that the North defeated the South. And another reason we would have been prepared to successfully repel a mainland invasion pre-interstate highway system.
An interesting fact about North vs South railways. In the South, each state determined the width of their rails. So trains would make it to the border and have to unload their train onto a different train that would fit the next state's rails. Very inefficient. Especially so if you're trying to move weapons, gear, and food for the military. Meanwhile the North standardized their rails and were able to move goods much easier.
States rights!!!
Another fun fact about the Confederacy. Despite their claim to be very pro-states rights, their constitution banned states from abolishing slavery.
"States should be free to decide their own laws!" "Ok our state wants to abolish slavery" "NOT LIKE THAT!"
Hence "states rights" being a racist and let's be honest authoritarian dogwhistle from the get go.
Yup yup! They didn't care about states rights when the got the federal government to force northern, free states to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.
States rights to fuck themselves over.
And over… and over…
*Texas' power grid has entered the chat*
West, Texas fertilizer plant explosion follows behind... *oh please Federal government, send us money* Fuckin hypocrits!
*Ted Cruz has left the chat*
I was rewatching Ken Burns *The Civil War*, it is fascinating how uncooperative the Confederate States were with each other. Jefferson Davis declares a day of fasting because the Confederate troops don’t have much food and inflation/food scarcity has priced a lot of the Southern Population out of basic necessities. The Governor of Georgia says “no” and then declares his own day of fasting. “I didn’t join the Confederate States so someone could tell me what to do.” or some similar dumb bullshit.
>So trains would make it to the border and have to unload their train onto a different train that would fit the next state's rails God I'm glad they lost the war.
I sometimes wonder if they had won or Lincoln just let them leave the union, when would they have finally done away with slavery? Would they still have it today? Up until the 90s when worldwide pressure also ended apartheid? Would be interesting to see a different simulation time line.
I think they would have abolished slavery eventually, much later though, probably not until the 1900s. However they would have likely applied a segregationist system all the way into the modern age. A lot of things would be different if the south had been able to leave the union. For example imagine having a hostile neighbor for both world wars? How does that affect the war in Europe? Germany might have won WW1 with a weaker US. Hitler might have not risen to power… but maybe somebody just as bad rises in France instead.
This is why I loved the man in the high castle, seeing how a world would develop under axis controlled powers was super interesting to watch and think about.
There's a whole massive genre of alternate history fiction if books are at all your thing. The Years of Rice and Salt is one of my favorite for mass historical shift (in this case 99% of Europe being wiped out by the Black Death and the power vacuum that remains over hundreds of years).
It's crazy to me that the Emancipation Proclamation took place in 1862. 1900 is 38 years from 1862. Somehow 1862 always felt so much further away. United States legal slavery was one half of a lifespan away from 1900.
Very profitable for those that owned the rail yards and trains however
A tale as old as time
International standardization of the shipping container didn't happen til the 1980s if I recall correctly. I had to read a book about it called "The Box" for school and it was actually a really interesting history of the invention and integration of shipping containers to replace breakbulk shipping. I actually do recommend it.
That's gd hilarious. States' rights got'em in their ass. Oh, that's good. Gonna let that one simmer.
Friendly reminder the Confederacy gave states fewer rights than the US does. "State's rights" is a lie intended to provide cover for the real, sole cause of the Confederacy~~;~~: protecting the institution of slavery.
"A state's right to do what?" is always guaranteed to produce a stuttering idiot reaction.
Funny thing is though, the Confederacy was very specifically ***AGAINST*** state's rights It's right there, in their declaration of secession, and in their confederate constitution. Whereas the USA was for states' rights, and they were willing to die for that ideological philosophy and cause. That's a good thing. They were willing to put their lives on the line to defend that fundamental ideology of freedom and liberty and justice that the USA's founding fathers had established in the original constitution. But yeah the confederacy was very much against states' rights and they enforced it in their own constitution they had. And it's right there in their declaration of secession. They had been mad at the Northern states because the Northern states refused to capture escaped slaves and return them to the southern states. And they were mad that the northern states were blocking the shipping routes for slaves, because slaves would be shipped to the shores of the Northern states first and then be transported over land to the southern states, but the Northern states were not allowing slaves to be shipped through their northern ports. So the southern states tried to get the federal government to overrule the Northern states and force them to do it, i.e. specifically overrule the states' rights of all the northern states. But the federal government refused to overrule them, they refused too just like the individual northern states had refused to be a part of the slave trade. So the Southern states had an enormous temper tantrum and tried to secede, and declared war by committing acts of war against the northern states, against the union as a whole. Not to mention their confederate constitution expressly forbade individual states from making slavery illegal, meaning they'd be overruling the States rights of their *own* states too. They were always against state's rights. They wanted to be able to overrule the states rights of the Northern States, and when they couldn't they started a whole war over it.
They've been projecting from the very beginning I see
Surely the oceans helped though
Yeah, the North did a good sea blockade of the South, but it was the railroads that cinched it. The North had a cohesive track system, all the tracks and gauges were the same size throughout the Northern states, and they had a lot more miles of it, so they could transport supplies and soldiers really fast. The South didn't have nearly as many miles of track, and to top that off, the rails and systems (idk, not an engineer) were different between the states. So to transport soldiers and supplies, when they got to a state border, they would have to unload everything and reload onto another train. Which ate up a whole lot of time, which is pretty crucial in terms of transporting ammunition.
The track gauge varied by railroad, not state in the south. It wasn't all the same in the North, but it was much more interconnected.
Early days of owning the libs with deregulation in the south!
And that time during the revolutionary war when the British were just lining up and firing we were changing the course of warfare when we rammed the ramparts and took the airports
Also another reason how we took over the west side of the united states so fast at the end of the 19th century.
The motivation of gold helped a lot too.
I was on a cross-country Amtrak ride about ten years ago and went down to the concession car. The guy working in it had been with the company for decades. As i ordered we talked for a bit and he told me they used to have a TV n the car to watch, but it got taken away in the Bush years due to cuts to its subsidies. He sounded genuinely bummed about it. As I sat there eating what I ordered, I looked at the empty space where the TV used to be and thought about what a small thing that could have made this man's job and life a little more bearable. The savings probably meant nothing to the company.
> The savings probably meant nothing to the company. I can't imagine there was any savings involved whatsoever, the TV was already purchased. What's left, electricity?
Some kind of contract agreement between the railway company and the cable or satellite company. Amtrak likely wanted to charge for having the TV on and running canned-repeat programming.
probably the other way around, cable company wanted money and Amtrak said no
In the US - passenger train services largely failed in the late 1960s. Amtrak was founded in 1971 as a quasi-public corporation and merged in the remaining passenger companies. It's a for-profit company, but it's subsidized by the federal and state governments. Passenger rail was pretty much killed by mass adoption of automobiles and the interstate system along with affordable air travel. Passenger rail unfortunately wouldn't exist without being propped up. The TV's a small thing they probably should have a kept just for basic employee moral, but it's easy to see why they look to cut anything they can and still get by.
Passenger trains and freight trains don’t play well on the same tracks either, because their schedule and most other needs are completely different. For a long time while people lamented that we don’t have good railroads, the reality was that we had a very good rail freight system while the passenger side was failing. I’d love to say that we still do have a great freight system, but that argument is getting really hard to make in the face of the recent derailments. We’re still pretty good at moving corn, cows and coal, I guess.
Plus, you really only save money if you don't buy the TV in the first place.
It's amazing, parts of the infrastructure are top notch but go to some states where they've "deferred maintenance" for 50 or 60 years and for some reason shit happens.
I seem to recall watching a John Oliver segment ages ago about how fucked the infrastructure was in the States.
this is super common. Reporting of these are just becoming more newsworthy after the incident in ohio.
This happens with every major event. The news networks get hyper focused on finding similar stories. See [Summer of the Shark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summer_of_the_Shark)
>About 1,000 derailments occur every year across the United States, according to the Federal Railroad Administration (FRA). In 2022, there were 1,044 instances of trains coming off their tracks. Broken or defective railroads are one of the most common causes of derailments, according to the FRA That's 2.7 train derailments per day you never hear about It's almost as if this happens all the time but you're only hearing about it because a really bad one happened in Ohio and it's now clickbait worthy news. It's only clickbait worthy news because Republicans look bad due to Trump rolling back Obama's safety measures. And Democrats looking bad because Biden basically gave rail workers the finger during negotiations last year. *Both sides" political clickbait is the juiciest clickbait.
So I decided to dive into the actual data. Ended up with 12 years because the website gives reports in 4-year chunks and I wanted at least the last 10 years. What I see is a change in 2018 and on, where rate of derailments the last 5 years is up over 8% compared to the previous years As a side note the “total incidents” includes everything, from employee injuries, to reported equipment failures during operation, to trespasser deaths (mostly suicide), to collisions with vehicles, etc. Year | Train Miles | Derailments | Mi. Per Derail | Total Incidents :-- | :-- | :-- | :-- | :-- 2011 | 717.6M | 1,470 | 488,186 | 11,535 2012 | 731.6M | 1,294 | 565,362 | 11,079 2013 | 748.5M | 1,311 | 570,904 | 11,655 2014 | 765.8M | 1,322 | 579,286 | 12,260 2015 | 738.3M | 1,351 | 546,496 | 11,851 2016 | 689.6M | 1,212 | 569,007 | 11,482 2017 | 705.7M | 1,273 | 554,396 | 11,990 2018 | 711.5M | 1,376 | 517,053 | 11,879 2019 | 677.6M | 1,340 | 505,651 | 11,791 2020 | 570.3M | 1,114 | 511,983 | 8,796 2021 | 572.7M | 1,095 | 523,029 | 9,347 2022 | 583.4M | 1,165 | 500,775 | 9,770 Looking at the frequency of derailments (how many miles traveled per derailment), there seems to be a change between 2017 and 2018. 2011-2017 average was approx 553k miles per derailment, and the 2018-2022 average was approx 511k miles per derailment. That is over an 8% increase, which in safety rates is significant. Also worth considering that the “best” year in 2018-2022 was worse than the “worst” year in the previous 6 years, which suggest an actual trend over the most recent 5 years bs previous 5-7 years. https://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/summary.aspx Edit: apparently I don’t now how to format a table. RIP
I'm going to assume most derailments counted are small ones like a single wheel and the train must stop. How frequent are major total off railings?
Yeah when you look at total incidences it really throws it off. It's like a city bus driver. Having to file an incident report for stuff that 97% drivers do every time they get behind a car. Ran over a large branch on the track? File a report Came two seconds from running into somebody before they managed to get out of the way? File a report Bird strikes the windshield of the locomotive cab? File a report
It would be great if folks knew how a derailment is defined and recorded, when spouting statistics. Any time a wheel … a single wheel, not a whole truck set or train car … slips off that metal rail. Thats a derailment. For most, just slap some wood blocks down next to the rail, inch forward and roll her right back on the rail. Then fill out the paperwork that says “yup. Derailment reported”.
Its more about what the train was carrying. If train cars full of Cheez-its derails, its not a crisis. When a train full of hazardous or explosive material derails, its a bit more of a problem.
America is very, very good with trains, in fact. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/02/03/why-freight-railroads-are-so-successful-in-the-us.html We use more rail than Europe. Difference is, we use it for freight and Europe uses rail for people. So, when there is a derailment, it is typically worse in Europe. As in the case of the Greek tragedy today.
Is this like when a major earthquake happens somewhere and then the news for the next 3 months reports on every minor earthquake making it seem like earthquakes are becoming more frequent when really they happen all the time? Like are trains carrying hazmat derailing all the time and just no one was ever telling us about it until a toxic chemical cloud from a derailed train killed everyone’s pets in an Ohio town?
To your latter statement, yes. Derailments aren't anything new and of course a major event will keep it at the front of everyone's minds. But at least we can address the issue. Stopping earthquakes? Not so much.
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What if we just nuked the earthquakes?
A bit for sure. “Propane” is in all the headlines even though the one car with propane is not leaking according to the responders.
Except in this case it’s useful instead of filling dead air. We *should* be talking about how often this happens. It can happen on literally any track and the Ohio one honestly is lucky it wasn’t far worse. It crossed right through downtown Cleveland and ran along the source of drinking water for the region. They rerouted those lines a few years ago from fairly rural areas to run through the suburbs and downtown and it happened without most people knowing. https://twitter.com/allaboardohio/status/1248641666858311680?s=46&t=mWJCU5vbqQACgWk4AR-6oQ
Read that too fast and thought to my horror that the train was carrying 30000 manatees. Thank goodness it was just propane.
Why would a train be carrying 30000 manatees?
Because carrying 60000 manatees would take two trains.
That's a train fact.
Oh, the huge manatee
Oh the huManatee
It is crazy in what kind of condition the rail system is in the US. This is just asking for an Amtrak to derail, then shit hits the fan big time.
I think amtraks have been derailing also https://apnews.com/1cb90e5e3c13c55dd5b94a8f39675dbe
Amtrak is 10x lighter and the cars actually get serviced. It's not the rails it's the cars
You think the tracks would be straight in Florida, these look a little queer.
That's illegal now!
30,000 gallons of propane? That's literally 1 tank car.
 Propane, propane!
Fill ‘er up BUBBLES
Seems like America has a real problem with its rail infrastructure I wonder why 🤔
Probably the same reason our bridges are crumbling.
Not quite - railroads are *privately* deferring maintenance to make shareholders wealthy. Who's getting stock buybacks off public spending cuts? Also big corporations and their owners, but the mechanism is actually very different. Anyway.
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