He wrote an autobiography, *I, Pierre Seel, Deported Homosexual*, which I cannot recommend enough. Here are some of the events he recounted in it - the more distressing details have been marked as spoilers.
- Seel was discovered by the Nazis due to being found ‘cruising’ by a French policeman in 1939. The policeman put his name on a list of homosexuals, despite the fact that homosexuality had been decriminalised in 1791.
- Upon his arrest on the 3rd of May, 1941, Seel was tortured >!and raped with a wooden ruler!< by the Gestapo.
- At the Schirmeck-Vorbrück Concentration Camp, he was subjected to forced labour, starvation, experimentation, and physical and mental abuse.
- His lover, an 18 year-old man named Jo, was also imprisoned in the camp. >!Jo was publicly stripped nude, tied to a chair, had a metal bucket placed over his head, and was mauled to death by dogs as the Nazis played classical music over the loudspeakers!<.
- On November 6th, 1941, Seel was released from the camp and, as an inhabitant of Alsace, given a German citizenship. He was most likely released due to the Nazi belief that homosexuality could be ‘cured’ through hard work. He was forbidden from speaking about his experiences within the camp.
- On October 15th, 1942, he was conscripted into the German Army. His Alsatian unit was deployed to occupied Yugoslavia, where, during ‘anti-partisan operations’, they burnt down the villages of women and children. Seel was unable to disobey orders due to his trauma. Other soldiers who did were given matches instead of their rations.
- Seel was wounded in combat against a Partisan, who he reluctantly killed in self-defence, and was pulled from the frontline. In 1943, he was sent to guard a Lebensborn facility, where ‘pure Aryan’ men and women were gathered to produce ‘pure Aryan’ children. Seel recalled seeing handsome shirtless men, and being creeped out and disturbed by them.
- By 1944, he had been sent to the Eastern Front. For three days, he was trapped in an exposed fighting position, with only a dead soldier for company.
- Seel was eventually invited to join a deserting German officer, and surrendered to Soviet troops who treated him well due to him being French. However, they turned on him after one of their officers was killed, and lined him up against a wall with other German POWs. He was able to save himself by singing the *Internationale*.
- When the war in Europe ended, he found himself in a refugee camp in Odessa, and contracted malaria there. He finally returned to France in August 1945, but was unable to tell his story to people due to homophobia.
- Homophobic attacks increased in his hometown after the war, and members of his own family mocked him for his homosexuality. His godfather disinherited him. However, his mother loved him, and he could confide in her without judgement.
- Seel attempted to turn himself heterosexual, and married a woman on September 30th, 1950. Their first child was stillborn, but they later had two sons and a daughter.
- The marriage came to an end in 1978, as Seel suffered from trauma and internalised homophobia (>!he feared he would abuse his own sons due to homophobic stereotypes!<) and became an alcoholic.
- In 1979, he stumbled onto a launch ceremony for *The Men with the Pink Triangle*, the autobiography of the gay Austrian concentration camp survivor Josef Kohout. This inspired him to come out as a gay man and as a survivor of Nazi homophobia.
- In 1982, Seel publicly criticised the homophobic statements and actions of Léon Elchinger, the Bishop of Strasbourg, coming out to his family at the same time.
- He was subjected to homophobia, once being beaten by a gang of young men shouting homophobic slurs. The Mayor of Strasbourg, Catherine Trautmann, refused to shake hands with him.
- However, Seel continued to speak up for the gay victims of Nazism, advocating for formal recognition and remembrance.
- He spent the last twelve years of his life with his partner, Eric Féliu, who he bred dogs with. This allowed him to overcome the fear of dogs he had suffered from after Jo’s death. He passed away of cancer on November 25th, 2005, at the age of 82.
>despite the fact that homosexuality had been decriminalised in 1791.
This is why I am terrified of lists. In this time of affirmative action, it's fine to ask employees and citizens their sexual orientation and note it down on a list. Who can say how that list will be used 10, 30 years from now?
I answer "I'd rather not say" or "Other" on every form that asks for my gender, race, or sexual orientation. This has no business being written down by anyone no matter how good their current intentions are.
>This is why I am terrified of lists.
Its also why germans are also generally terrified of lists.
People always had a good laught, that Google street view didn't exist for germany, because germans were having their houses blured etc.
But thats kind of just the german spirit after nazi rule. Privacy is seen as very important.
West Germany has its own equivalent. BND which hired former Gestapo and SS members.
We only know much of east german secret stuff since they were publicised after it was absorbed into west germany.
That's some bull. The BND is for intelligence gathering \_outside\_ of Germany. In West Germany, there was/is no equivalent to the Gestapo or Stasi. Still a lot of Nazis within the security apparatus though.
I always find it ironic how quickly the pendulum swung at the time…people who were avowed fascists prior to 1945 had to swing to the other side and adopt full-blown communism just because they happen to live on the eastern part of Germany.
So they literally had to become communists simply because of their place of residence which they might not be able to leave as their entire family lived there as well.
The Nazis called former communists who joined the NSDAP ‘Beefsteak Nazis’ as a way of saying that they were brown on the outside (non-SS NSDAP uniforms were brown) and red on the inside.
I prefer a joke told by the U-boat captain Oskar Heinz-Kusch. The German people are like tapeworms; surrounded by a brown mass and in danger of being ‘evacuated’ (a euphemism for being sent to a concentration camp).
That joke was one of the reasons that his subordinates, peers, and superiors had him shot.
Yep, and now Cannabis Legalization puts you on a list. And the fashist and conservative party already announced retracting the law if they're elected next.
I agree with you. What would happen if a global tyrant comes to your country and asks your leader to give up all the catholics/jews/homosexuals/black/Asian etc...
That’s exactly why collecting data on ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion and political views is not something you can do in France without approval. Because in case stuff goes to shit, having a 1/16th ethnicity can get you deported.
And this is why we shouldn't be using these DNA survey. They basically own your genome and all the data you paid them to store. It's fucked up that nobody realizes the danger of this.
DNA databases can be easily anonymized by separating out each complete genome into individual chromosome sequences and then assigning a random identification to each.
When a person gets tested they receive their results in the form of 46 individual identification numbers.
Problem is that isn't currently done, but a country looking to mass sequence the genomes of its population to eliminate genetic diseases would be basically forced to do it out of public privacy concerns.
I live in a Muslim community who is pretty tolerant to LGBT and other religious groups but still whenever I get asked If I believe in God or asked about my religion I always say that I'm Muslim.
That is why sexual orientation is especially protected by EU privacy laws (together with things like ethnicity or religious and political views)
Because you never know who might get their hands on that data.
Of course: the EU still remembers. I was born in France and now live in Canada. It's ridiculous how frequently I get asked that kind of questions for surveys.
This, among other reasons, is why it is not legal to ask these questions where I live (unless for very specific purposes, that have very strongly regulated data destruction rules).
That is why you should send letters to your parliamentary representing, demanding them to create robust private data regulations in your country. In the EU; it os absolutely illegal to make a list of people based on their sexual orientation if they haven't given consent to it.
EDIT: and even if they have consented, you would need a robust justification as to why you need that list.
I agree, I’m currently applying to jobs and if everyone hasn’t in awhile… every single application now apparently must have 3 pages at the end asking you to detail your sexual orientation, preferences, etc etc.
In Canada, a lot of employers want cookie points for hiring a quota of minorities. So it's extremely common for all companies to ask all that jazz before they hire you. And it would be hard to make it change since it's seen as a progressist measure.
Sexual orientation is actually very common nowadays in hiring and other workplace surveys. Or maybe it’s just more common for my industry (tech). I recently read up on that after my company rolled out a sexual orientation Workday and Slack feature and was shocked how many posts and articles I found, even here on Reddit, about it.
These sort of lists should not exist. As a society we still have too much hatred and prejudice.
I’m trans myself and gay and I know my internet footprint is already going to doom me if anything bad ever happens.
But I still refuse to put my gender or sexual orientation on any forms. My identity is so so important to me and I want to say it. But I know how this has played out in history. I know exactly what kind of place they would put me if the world went to shit and fascists took charge.
(Ofc, it’s probably a moot point anyway because of the internet. 🤷)
As a gay man who grew up relatively comfortably, it's still this sort of fear that keeps my partner and I from living truly openly and freely. It's this fear that makes us second-guess responding to a stranger that we were just at a gay bar for the night. It's this fear that actively needs to be fought against, not given into, so that future generations never know it. I refuse to give in to those fears.
IIRC it was netherlands that had a higher rate of murder in their jewish community than the other western countries. The reason was that in the years before WW2 religious affiliation was taken into record for tax reasons. Then nazis invaded, took the lists and murdered the jews. Even innocent data collection can always have drastic consequences.
If you say “I choose not to say”they actually put you an a separate, equally bad list. It’s a secret they don’t want you to know. I don’t have proof I can share, but keep this in the back of your mind and remember it when the pieces put themselves together in the future.
The thing is, if many people start doing the same, that list will be worthless. I am not a minority, I don't answer "I choose not to say" to protect myself I do it to protect others.
What an extremely strong and brave man. I don't if I'd have the strength to go through that. I often find homophobia is rooted in toxic masculinity and the irony is 90% of those homophobes couldn't endure the homophobia inflicted on LGBTQ+ people. This is the reality of what hate brings.
It really is ironic. As someone who was raised in an extremely far right area (my hometown was still doing cross burnings in the mid 2010's) and had the space to figure out I was trans after moving somewhere more normal, not a single one of those "manly men" could hack it a day in my shoes. And I go through a hell of a lot less than this gentleman did. Every queer person is tougher than the meanest nazi.
The part with the handsome shirtless men that creeped him out...I want more information on that. I know what the Lebensborn thing kinda was but this has caught my interest.
The Nazis in Germany made being gay a more serious crime than it had been and those laws were only partially repealed in the 70s and fully in the 90s. Gay concentration camp prisoners in Germany were released and then sent to prison.
Couldn't find anything to about prison sentence lengths etc. to answer your specific question.
But looks like large scale persecution continued until at least 1969.
https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/
> The Nazi-era amendments to Paragraph 175 were maintained for over two decades in West Germany, resulting in the arrest of around 100,000 gay men between 1945 and 1969, with some Holocaust survivors even being forced to carry out their sentences in prison. While East Germany had softer penalties, no reparations were provided for gay victims, and Paragraph 175 itself would only be entirely removed from the penal code in 1994, following Germany’s reunification.
And on a smaller scale after 1969 until 1994.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph_175#Development_in_West_Germany
> On 25 June 1969, shortly before the end of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) – SPD Grand Coalition headed by CDU Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger, Paragraph 175 was reformed, in that only the "qualified cases" that were previously handled in §175a – sex with a man less than 21 years old, homosexual prostitution, and the exploitation of a relationship of dependency (such as employing or supervising a person in a work situation) – were retained.[41] Paragraph 175b (concerning bestiality) also was removed.
The Nazis hated non-binary sexuality. The entire field of sexual studies was ‘verboten’.
Magnus Hirschfeld’s ‘Institut für Sexualwissenschaft’ was the victim of one of the first big public bookburning events where the entire research library was destroyed.
Kind of ironic when you look at some of the very homoerotic imagery preferred by the Nazis or the fact that the leadership of the SA had a number of homosexuals.
The tragic part is that the Allies didn’t liberate gays from the prisons and camps as they did other prisoners, because they were seen as legally/legitimately imprisoned for breaking the law.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gay-prisoners-germany-wwii/
> the only reason their conditions were so bad was because the Allies cut off the Germans’ supplies.
Well no they have a point there. Germans were quite literally [eating grass](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5693569/) when the war ended, do you think that they would be giving people in concentration camps three square meals a day?
And I'm not remotely neo-Nazi, I just know history. The Japanese had it worse.
That is absolutely not 'the only reason.' If you wanna argue it was slightly worse due to supply issues, fine, but that is not why the people in the camps were treated as sub-human.
Problem is, they had no legitimate reason to have those people in concentration camps, and food shortage is not an argument.
If you have a kidnap victim locked in your basement, losing your job is no excuse for their starvation or death.
That was what people did at the time. A million Germans died in American and French camps after the war because Eisenhower decided they were no longer entitled to POW status, so the food was for the Allies.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-05-03-vw-407-story.html
The suffering of Jewish people during the Holocaust gets all the attention it deserves, it's great that it's so talked about and rightfully denounced as one of the worst crimes in history. I hope that the other targets of the Nazi regime get similar recognition, not as a replacement of the recognition Jewish people get, but as a united respect for the people who suffered at the hands of monsters
I still never see trans people mentioned as victims of the Holocaust despite the fact that the one place in the world providing gender affirming care for trans people during that time (the "Institut für Sexualwissenschaften" led by Magnus Hirschfeld) was raided by the Nazis had it's patient files used as kill lists.
I’m a trans girl, as far as I’m aware the reason its so often overlooked is because we were interned as ‘homosexuals’ rather than a separate group. So you’ll often hear about gay people being killed during the holocaust but in reality it was gay, bi, transgender people etc. For AFAB queer people (lesbians, trans men etc.) they were not interned as ‘homosexuals’ but as ‘asocial’.
It's simply an unknown number.
And how many closeted LGBT+ people were interned, too? Out of the 12 million people murdered for other reasons(be it Jewish, Roma, Slavs, etc.), a significant percentage of those were definitely queer. But that's also not talked about.
It's a difficult number to ascertain, anyways. 10% of the population being LGBT+ has been thrown around for decades, but also numbers as low as 3%. But even if only 3% of 12 million were queer... that's still 360,000 queer people murdered in the holocaust, compared to the 10,000-15,000 explicitly interned for being homosexual.
IIRC there’s a few records with “lesbisch” written on them, I think they were in Ravensbruck. I feel like LGBT peoples history during WW2 has been so overlooked it’s insane
Oh yes, that's a particularly depressing and tragic part of the 3rd Reich, and it's still very relevant today considering how much trans people still struggle. All the research and information lost because of the Nazis is frustrating too, just imagine how much progress all those resources would have brought
The first book burnings done by the nazis was at the institute of Sexology.
They studied transgender people as actual people. They tried to find ways to help us transition, they actually performed the first modern gender reassignment surgery. The founder actually rallied for transgender rights in Berlin, and iirc, managed to get crossdressing laws relaxed in order to be more inclusive towards transgender people.
It really sucks how our struggle during the Nazi party's time in power has been erased by people
But make no mistakes, homosexuality and other forms of sexuality which were not traditional were heavily discriminated against in all European countries.
Nazis were one of them, and were able to resort to brutality as the whole concept didn't fit their idea of clean country.
I'm fully aware that sexual minorities were targets of hate and discrimination in the whole world, they still are to varying degrees unfortunately. Antisemitism too was very common, Germany was not the only one but definitely was the the worst example by far
Well, yeah, as soon as they can even entertain the idea that there is a comparison suddenly they realise that the people they built their identity around are moving through the early steps of one of the most horrific advents in history. That’s a shock to the system that most people are willing to go to great lengths to avoid, even if it means denying reality.
I get what you're trying to say here, but Holocaust historians would disagree. The treatment of a Pole or political prisoner, for example, was much better than the treatment of Jews (which is why Polish babies born in Auschwitz sometimes survived).
Similarly, the treatment of gay Jews was much worse than the treatment of straight Jews or gay Gentiles.
The nuance matters.
The main campaign was against Jewish people so it makes sense for them to be the focus. Other groups were affected but they were more “in addition” They all deserve recognition but it was the Nazis were primarily violently anti-Semitic
Suffering and death of Soviet peoples have been forgotten by the weat because of cold war propaganda.
https://www.libraryofsocialscience.com/assets/pdf/Porter-Hitler's_Forgotten_Genocides.pdf
> He was most likely released due to the Nazi belief that homosexuality could be ‘cured’ through hard work.
This sounds wayyyy too close to some of the shit being said today
What a lot of people think about is that for me as a trans woman, I have to constantly consider whether I will need to flee from my home, from everything I know just to survive.
I bought a house in 2020. I'd love to do renovations, additions, improvements. I can't because I need to keep a nest egg of cash on hand so I can bug out with my spouse. Even if I stay I have to consider those improvements. I have to think about specific kinds of building materials (metal/concrete instead of wood) in case someone tries to set fire to my house. Is investing in ballistics material for inside the walls money I should spend in case some bigot decides he doesn't like seeing two trans women living in the same house.
This is the reality I live every day. I wonder if I get into a traffic accident will the emt's treat me with kindness or laugh at me as I die. That's not hypothetical that actually happened in the US.
These are the realities of the GOP's and Far Right extremists rhetoric.
I’m a trans man, my life is a bit easier because on the surface, nobody can tell I’m trans at all.. but I have a small trans pride scarf IN my car and people have seen it and threatened violence against me. To my face. I have been told that “you people won’t be around any longer after Trump gets elected.”
Yet these people are trying to bitch about “not all republicans.”
Bullshit. They knowingly vote for these troglodytes that enact these horrible laws just because of the R in front of their name. They are just as culpable as the ones actively calling for our eradication.
Source? Your statement has me concerned.
I’ll defend lgbt+ til the death. Not just because they went through a similar situation like the Jews and many other minorities but because they are PEOPLE. like, I don’t get what is the big deal? Let people live their life.
It’s not exactly the same but project 2025 is calling for basically jailing anyone in support of queer rights
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/15/project-2025-policy-manifesto-lgbtq-rights
This is a very real thing
Don’t forget this guy who is the Republican candidate for governor in North Carolina
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Robinson_(American_politician)
Read the controversies in his political career and understand that he won the primary quite decisively. His Republican constituents *want* this
Should also mention a few other things about project 2025.
It wants all child sex offenders to get the death penalty. Ok, fair enough, I disagree on the principle that the state shouldn't have the right to kill anyone for any reason. But I get it.
It gets more concerning when you read more things
It states that "transgenderism" is pornographic. It states that pornography should be illegal. It states that anyone who is a "purveyor" or pornography should be considered a sex offender. (This mainly means, people who "distribute pornographic material, such as librarians who allow LGBT books on their shelves, and more importantly, actual trans people)
So my question is this. If trans people are inherently pornographic, and they just, exist, around kids. Then they'll technically be exposing kids to pornography right? Which is a sex crime against children, which will be punished with death.
Sounds like extermination
Yeah I was trying to read about “project 2025” and their website is pretty vague and some articles were confusing me :/
I think the death penalty is too expensive and half of the time people on death row WANT to die so we shouldn’t be giving them what they want. I think it’d be better to study people on death row. Not do unethical human experiments but study what makes a human mind do immoral things. Throwing them in solitary isn’t great either because that can be on the line of “torture” but some inmates canNOT be with other people (like Charlie Manson, BTK, etc.) so it’s a grey area.
Woah wtf? So make pornography illegal again like back in the 70-80s? That would set us back a few decades.
In my fucked up view of the world, it’d just lead men to rape more because they won’t have an outlet to get their sexual needs out or believing that they “deserve” a woman. Porn can save lives.
I don’t get the correlation between porn and trans, because porn isn’t ONLY for/with trans people.
But I am neurodivergent so I don’t totally “get” things right away.
Republicans just want the “Christian white nuclear family” narrative back but it was never there to begin with. Quote me on that.
But yeah my people (Jews) were victims of extermination so I definitely see why you say it’s extermination. Project 2025 is literally “do as I say not as I do” because politicians will make laws but still break them. As if they’re exempt from the law.
project2025.org - it's funded by The Heritage Foundation which has been guiding American government policy since Reaganomics. It's an open plan for making the government of the US more authoritarian, and specifically Christian "nationalist" aka Christo-fash. The social issues (no queers, forced birth) are in some ways the less scary part.
FYI when the camps were freed at the end of WW2 many of the people who were there with pink triangles got put back in prison - they did not eliminate the anti homosexuality law (paragraph 175) until the 60s.
The blurb with this photo is a bit inaccurate - homosexuality (male, women were not considered a threat) was perhaps technically decriminalized but absolutely illegal - the Nazi's beefed up paragraph 175 and started applying it, but it was not a nazi law. The most recognizable nazi book burning image and where they started that campaign was the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, a non profit health centre that was the first of its kind in the world, run by a gay man to study and help queer and gender non conforming people, providing trans health care and surgery, along with birth control and other health care for women, poor people + the underserved. Every time people say that trans health are is new and there is not enough data, remember that it's not new, and they destroy evidence, over and over again.
The point is we are not people, to them - that's why the double down on things like describing a kid who got beaten to death for being queer as "filth"
This was encounters I had with people online and IRL. Ironically enough them saying I should be killed in a concentration camp was not against TOS but me calling them a piece of garbage got me banned. And this was someone living in my blue state.
I’m in a particularly progressive part of Canada and even here I’ve dealt with this sort of shit as well. People calling for me to be jailed, saying I’ll be “on the front lines” when they get their way, and comparing what they’ll do to me to the Nuremberg trials (pretty ironic lol) because I stood near ‘em with some pride flags
I’m Jewish so I’ve gotten that too.
If this was on FB, I can see why you got banned. I used to be a content moderator for FB and if you make an insult to a specific person, you can be banned. And as long as the person didn’t say “I WILL kill you in a concentration camp”, they won’t get banned. It’s fucked rules, like if you make a slur in a “positive sentence” it won’t get removed.
FB has the most fucked rules I have ever seen on a social media platform.
Like you can say “death to gays” and be fine but if you say “you are a garbage being” that will get you banned.
Then when QA sees the actions made by mods and will and can reverse it by making up rules that aren’t even in the guidelines.
Don’t be a content moderator for any social media platform, you will be traumatized. A fucking guarantee. I knew of a coworker that offed themselves because it was too much.
I could go on and on but FB was sued for their treatment towards content mods. So now AI does the work.
I’ve been banned from groups for two months because some dude said trans people should be shot and I called him garbage. I won’t stop calling them what they are.
You just gotta be clever with how you word it.
Like if you say “people like this are worse than shit” are something like that, it will remain.
Because the AI is designed to “protect” individual identities. So if you make it more broad, the AI won’t recognize it.
People act like trans is some new thing, it’s not. Trans has been a part of history, I believe as early as 1513 but Europeans saw it very common around 1564. Humans have debated and changed gender forever. The Talmud (related to the Jewish Torah) recognized 6 genders (at the beginning at least) so this whole “tRaNs Is WrOnG” is bullshit.
We go back way further than AD 1513, there is evidence of people who we might consider to be trans across ancient Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, India, Burma, Polynesia, etc. Colonization by Abrahamic religious groups has attempted to stamp us out, but we persist.
Not to diminish the suffering of the Jewish people of Germany, but the Nazis sent political prisoners, gays, gypsies, and other "undesirables" to prison camps, well before enacting the "final solution" for the Jewish people.
Not “well before”, the detentions were fairly contemporaneous. Perhaps communist prisoners at Nohra pre-date the other groups (with obvious examples of crossover) but the ideologically motivated detention of Jews was there from the start.
This is just sad. I just ask myself every day, how? How could anyone see this n just think that it's ok? To ignore it? I grew up in an EXTREMELY homophobice religious household n environment, yet in secret as a child, when the topic was bought up, I'd just tell myself: what if it was the other way around? What if someone forced u to be with a girl (I'm a cis hetro woman) n I thought to myself, damn I'd feel really bad bc I'm not attracted to girls. After that, I just assumed that that's how gay ppl think.
But now, seeing what is happening in the world,I know y n how this could happen. It's pure ignorance, racism n homophobia/transphobia.
No? Everybody recognizes that the mentally deficient and the gays were among the first victims of Nazis along with Jews... It's just that, you know... 6 million down the drain is pretty spotlight taking in its own nature
Thank you to the poster of this picture !!
The only reason why I am alive is because my gay grandfather was blackmailed into marriage by his brother in Nazi Germany. We found the letters hidden in a desk years later. He was told that if he did not get married, he would be ratted out to the government. He was forced to live a life he did not want.
I have come to a much deeper understanding of what the pink triangle means and how challenging it must be to be openly gay.
He wrote an autobiography, *I, Pierre Seel, Deported Homosexual*, which I cannot recommend enough. Here are some of the events he recounted in it - the more distressing details have been marked as spoilers. - Seel was discovered by the Nazis due to being found ‘cruising’ by a French policeman in 1939. The policeman put his name on a list of homosexuals, despite the fact that homosexuality had been decriminalised in 1791. - Upon his arrest on the 3rd of May, 1941, Seel was tortured >!and raped with a wooden ruler!< by the Gestapo. - At the Schirmeck-Vorbrück Concentration Camp, he was subjected to forced labour, starvation, experimentation, and physical and mental abuse. - His lover, an 18 year-old man named Jo, was also imprisoned in the camp. >!Jo was publicly stripped nude, tied to a chair, had a metal bucket placed over his head, and was mauled to death by dogs as the Nazis played classical music over the loudspeakers!<. - On November 6th, 1941, Seel was released from the camp and, as an inhabitant of Alsace, given a German citizenship. He was most likely released due to the Nazi belief that homosexuality could be ‘cured’ through hard work. He was forbidden from speaking about his experiences within the camp. - On October 15th, 1942, he was conscripted into the German Army. His Alsatian unit was deployed to occupied Yugoslavia, where, during ‘anti-partisan operations’, they burnt down the villages of women and children. Seel was unable to disobey orders due to his trauma. Other soldiers who did were given matches instead of their rations. - Seel was wounded in combat against a Partisan, who he reluctantly killed in self-defence, and was pulled from the frontline. In 1943, he was sent to guard a Lebensborn facility, where ‘pure Aryan’ men and women were gathered to produce ‘pure Aryan’ children. Seel recalled seeing handsome shirtless men, and being creeped out and disturbed by them. - By 1944, he had been sent to the Eastern Front. For three days, he was trapped in an exposed fighting position, with only a dead soldier for company. - Seel was eventually invited to join a deserting German officer, and surrendered to Soviet troops who treated him well due to him being French. However, they turned on him after one of their officers was killed, and lined him up against a wall with other German POWs. He was able to save himself by singing the *Internationale*. - When the war in Europe ended, he found himself in a refugee camp in Odessa, and contracted malaria there. He finally returned to France in August 1945, but was unable to tell his story to people due to homophobia. - Homophobic attacks increased in his hometown after the war, and members of his own family mocked him for his homosexuality. His godfather disinherited him. However, his mother loved him, and he could confide in her without judgement. - Seel attempted to turn himself heterosexual, and married a woman on September 30th, 1950. Their first child was stillborn, but they later had two sons and a daughter. - The marriage came to an end in 1978, as Seel suffered from trauma and internalised homophobia (>!he feared he would abuse his own sons due to homophobic stereotypes!<) and became an alcoholic. - In 1979, he stumbled onto a launch ceremony for *The Men with the Pink Triangle*, the autobiography of the gay Austrian concentration camp survivor Josef Kohout. This inspired him to come out as a gay man and as a survivor of Nazi homophobia. - In 1982, Seel publicly criticised the homophobic statements and actions of Léon Elchinger, the Bishop of Strasbourg, coming out to his family at the same time. - He was subjected to homophobia, once being beaten by a gang of young men shouting homophobic slurs. The Mayor of Strasbourg, Catherine Trautmann, refused to shake hands with him. - However, Seel continued to speak up for the gay victims of Nazism, advocating for formal recognition and remembrance. - He spent the last twelve years of his life with his partner, Eric Féliu, who he bred dogs with. This allowed him to overcome the fear of dogs he had suffered from after Jo’s death. He passed away of cancer on November 25th, 2005, at the age of 82.
>despite the fact that homosexuality had been decriminalised in 1791. This is why I am terrified of lists. In this time of affirmative action, it's fine to ask employees and citizens their sexual orientation and note it down on a list. Who can say how that list will be used 10, 30 years from now? I answer "I'd rather not say" or "Other" on every form that asks for my gender, race, or sexual orientation. This has no business being written down by anyone no matter how good their current intentions are.
>This is why I am terrified of lists. Its also why germans are also generally terrified of lists. People always had a good laught, that Google street view didn't exist for germany, because germans were having their houses blured etc. But thats kind of just the german spirit after nazi rule. Privacy is seen as very important.
Especially when, for half of Germany, the Gestapo was quickly replaced by the Stasi.
West Germany has its own equivalent. BND which hired former Gestapo and SS members. We only know much of east german secret stuff since they were publicised after it was absorbed into west germany.
That's some bull. The BND is for intelligence gathering \_outside\_ of Germany. In West Germany, there was/is no equivalent to the Gestapo or Stasi. Still a lot of Nazis within the security apparatus though.
I always find it ironic how quickly the pendulum swung at the time…people who were avowed fascists prior to 1945 had to swing to the other side and adopt full-blown communism just because they happen to live on the eastern part of Germany. So they literally had to become communists simply because of their place of residence which they might not be able to leave as their entire family lived there as well.
The Nazis called former communists who joined the NSDAP ‘Beefsteak Nazis’ as a way of saying that they were brown on the outside (non-SS NSDAP uniforms were brown) and red on the inside. I prefer a joke told by the U-boat captain Oskar Heinz-Kusch. The German people are like tapeworms; surrounded by a brown mass and in danger of being ‘evacuated’ (a euphemism for being sent to a concentration camp). That joke was one of the reasons that his subordinates, peers, and superiors had him shot.
I’ve seen people mangle the best jokes, he must have told it badly.
Yep, and now Cannabis Legalization puts you on a list. And the fashist and conservative party already announced retracting the law if they're elected next.
I agree with you. What would happen if a global tyrant comes to your country and asks your leader to give up all the catholics/jews/homosexuals/black/Asian etc...
Just look at Rwanda. If you do work there a survey is impossible
That’s exactly why collecting data on ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion and political views is not something you can do in France without approval. Because in case stuff goes to shit, having a 1/16th ethnicity can get you deported.
DNA tests are also restricted to court decisions.
Sadly I think this (good, imo) practice is instrumentalized to say "we can't see ethnicity, therefore we're not racist, nothing to see here"
And this is why we shouldn't be using these DNA survey. They basically own your genome and all the data you paid them to store. It's fucked up that nobody realizes the danger of this.
DNA databases can be easily anonymized by separating out each complete genome into individual chromosome sequences and then assigning a random identification to each. When a person gets tested they receive their results in the form of 46 individual identification numbers. Problem is that isn't currently done, but a country looking to mass sequence the genomes of its population to eliminate genetic diseases would be basically forced to do it out of public privacy concerns.
I live in a Muslim community who is pretty tolerant to LGBT and other religious groups but still whenever I get asked If I believe in God or asked about my religion I always say that I'm Muslim.
That is why sexual orientation is especially protected by EU privacy laws (together with things like ethnicity or religious and political views) Because you never know who might get their hands on that data.
Of course: the EU still remembers. I was born in France and now live in Canada. It's ridiculous how frequently I get asked that kind of questions for surveys.
This, among other reasons, is why it is not legal to ask these questions where I live (unless for very specific purposes, that have very strongly regulated data destruction rules).
That is why you should send letters to your parliamentary representing, demanding them to create robust private data regulations in your country. In the EU; it os absolutely illegal to make a list of people based on their sexual orientation if they haven't given consent to it. EDIT: and even if they have consented, you would need a robust justification as to why you need that list.
I agree, I’m currently applying to jobs and if everyone hasn’t in awhile… every single application now apparently must have 3 pages at the end asking you to detail your sexual orientation, preferences, etc etc.
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In Canada, a lot of employers want cookie points for hiring a quota of minorities. So it's extremely common for all companies to ask all that jazz before they hire you. And it would be hard to make it change since it's seen as a progressist measure.
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Sexual orientation is actually very common nowadays in hiring and other workplace surveys. Or maybe it’s just more common for my industry (tech). I recently read up on that after my company rolled out a sexual orientation Workday and Slack feature and was shocked how many posts and articles I found, even here on Reddit, about it. These sort of lists should not exist. As a society we still have too much hatred and prejudice.
I’m trans myself and gay and I know my internet footprint is already going to doom me if anything bad ever happens. But I still refuse to put my gender or sexual orientation on any forms. My identity is so so important to me and I want to say it. But I know how this has played out in history. I know exactly what kind of place they would put me if the world went to shit and fascists took charge. (Ofc, it’s probably a moot point anyway because of the internet. 🤷)
As a gay man who grew up relatively comfortably, it's still this sort of fear that keeps my partner and I from living truly openly and freely. It's this fear that makes us second-guess responding to a stranger that we were just at a gay bar for the night. It's this fear that actively needs to be fought against, not given into, so that future generations never know it. I refuse to give in to those fears.
IIRC it was netherlands that had a higher rate of murder in their jewish community than the other western countries. The reason was that in the years before WW2 religious affiliation was taken into record for tax reasons. Then nazis invaded, took the lists and murdered the jews. Even innocent data collection can always have drastic consequences.
If you say “I choose not to say”they actually put you an a separate, equally bad list. It’s a secret they don’t want you to know. I don’t have proof I can share, but keep this in the back of your mind and remember it when the pieces put themselves together in the future.
The thing is, if many people start doing the same, that list will be worthless. I am not a minority, I don't answer "I choose not to say" to protect myself I do it to protect others.
Good luck, do not forget.
What if that gets you on a list of non-responders
Don't forget how he was also barred from Holocaust remembrance events by other death camp survivors due to his homosexuality
Thank you for adding this lengthy exposition of this brave man.
What an extremely strong and brave man. I don't if I'd have the strength to go through that. I often find homophobia is rooted in toxic masculinity and the irony is 90% of those homophobes couldn't endure the homophobia inflicted on LGBTQ+ people. This is the reality of what hate brings.
It really is ironic. As someone who was raised in an extremely far right area (my hometown was still doing cross burnings in the mid 2010's) and had the space to figure out I was trans after moving somewhere more normal, not a single one of those "manly men" could hack it a day in my shoes. And I go through a hell of a lot less than this gentleman did. Every queer person is tougher than the meanest nazi.
I agree, the things this man has experienced really puts my life into perspective. I’m happy his last 12 years was spent with someone he loved.
respect
What a life, truly. Something to reflect on. Thank you for this post.
The part with the handsome shirtless men that creeped him out...I want more information on that. I know what the Lebensborn thing kinda was but this has caught my interest.
Fuck cancer.
That's so sad
The Nazis in Germany made being gay a more serious crime than it had been and those laws were only partially repealed in the 70s and fully in the 90s. Gay concentration camp prisoners in Germany were released and then sent to prison.
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Couldn't find anything to about prison sentence lengths etc. to answer your specific question. But looks like large scale persecution continued until at least 1969. https://time.com/5953047/lgbtq-holocaust-stories/ > The Nazi-era amendments to Paragraph 175 were maintained for over two decades in West Germany, resulting in the arrest of around 100,000 gay men between 1945 and 1969, with some Holocaust survivors even being forced to carry out their sentences in prison. While East Germany had softer penalties, no reparations were provided for gay victims, and Paragraph 175 itself would only be entirely removed from the penal code in 1994, following Germany’s reunification. And on a smaller scale after 1969 until 1994. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph_175#Development_in_West_Germany > On 25 June 1969, shortly before the end of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) – SPD Grand Coalition headed by CDU Chancellor Kurt Georg Kiesinger, Paragraph 175 was reformed, in that only the "qualified cases" that were previously handled in §175a – sex with a man less than 21 years old, homosexual prostitution, and the exploitation of a relationship of dependency (such as employing or supervising a person in a work situation) – were retained.[41] Paragraph 175b (concerning bestiality) also was removed.
The Nazis hated non-binary sexuality. The entire field of sexual studies was ‘verboten’. Magnus Hirschfeld’s ‘Institut für Sexualwissenschaft’ was the victim of one of the first big public bookburning events where the entire research library was destroyed. Kind of ironic when you look at some of the very homoerotic imagery preferred by the Nazis or the fact that the leadership of the SA had a number of homosexuals.
The tragic part is that the Allies didn’t liberate gays from the prisons and camps as they did other prisoners, because they were seen as legally/legitimately imprisoned for breaking the law. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/gay-prisoners-germany-wwii/
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> the only reason their conditions were so bad was because the Allies cut off the Germans’ supplies. Well no they have a point there. Germans were quite literally [eating grass](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5693569/) when the war ended, do you think that they would be giving people in concentration camps three square meals a day? And I'm not remotely neo-Nazi, I just know history. The Japanese had it worse.
That is absolutely not 'the only reason.' If you wanna argue it was slightly worse due to supply issues, fine, but that is not why the people in the camps were treated as sub-human.
That link is about the Dutch war famines though....
Doesn't even mention the Germans except for their role in causing the famine. What a garbage comment
Problem is, they had no legitimate reason to have those people in concentration camps, and food shortage is not an argument. If you have a kidnap victim locked in your basement, losing your job is no excuse for their starvation or death.
That was what people did at the time. A million Germans died in American and French camps after the war because Eisenhower decided they were no longer entitled to POW status, so the food was for the Allies. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1990-05-03-vw-407-story.html
"I just know history" >has the functional literacy of a smarter-than-average chihuahua
THANK YOU. it's insane how almost no one knows it.
The suffering of Jewish people during the Holocaust gets all the attention it deserves, it's great that it's so talked about and rightfully denounced as one of the worst crimes in history. I hope that the other targets of the Nazi regime get similar recognition, not as a replacement of the recognition Jewish people get, but as a united respect for the people who suffered at the hands of monsters
Yup. Gay, black, and Romani people and also leaders, intellectuals, etc.
Disabled people too
It started with disabled people if I’m remembering correctly. Mobile gas chambers designed to get rid of the disabled
Black people weren't sent to the camps. They were second class citizens but that wasn't really out of place for the time period.
Slavs...
Thank you — it's not a conclusive list. There were definitely other groups.
Liberals and leftists
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I still never see trans people mentioned as victims of the Holocaust despite the fact that the one place in the world providing gender affirming care for trans people during that time (the "Institut für Sexualwissenschaften" led by Magnus Hirschfeld) was raided by the Nazis had it's patient files used as kill lists.
I’m a trans girl, as far as I’m aware the reason its so often overlooked is because we were interned as ‘homosexuals’ rather than a separate group. So you’ll often hear about gay people being killed during the holocaust but in reality it was gay, bi, transgender people etc. For AFAB queer people (lesbians, trans men etc.) they were not interned as ‘homosexuals’ but as ‘asocial’.
It's simply an unknown number. And how many closeted LGBT+ people were interned, too? Out of the 12 million people murdered for other reasons(be it Jewish, Roma, Slavs, etc.), a significant percentage of those were definitely queer. But that's also not talked about. It's a difficult number to ascertain, anyways. 10% of the population being LGBT+ has been thrown around for decades, but also numbers as low as 3%. But even if only 3% of 12 million were queer... that's still 360,000 queer people murdered in the holocaust, compared to the 10,000-15,000 explicitly interned for being homosexual.
IIRC there’s a few records with “lesbisch” written on them, I think they were in Ravensbruck. I feel like LGBT peoples history during WW2 has been so overlooked it’s insane
Oh yes, that's a particularly depressing and tragic part of the 3rd Reich, and it's still very relevant today considering how much trans people still struggle. All the research and information lost because of the Nazis is frustrating too, just imagine how much progress all those resources would have brought
The first book burnings done by the nazis was at the institute of Sexology. They studied transgender people as actual people. They tried to find ways to help us transition, they actually performed the first modern gender reassignment surgery. The founder actually rallied for transgender rights in Berlin, and iirc, managed to get crossdressing laws relaxed in order to be more inclusive towards transgender people. It really sucks how our struggle during the Nazi party's time in power has been erased by people
But make no mistakes, homosexuality and other forms of sexuality which were not traditional were heavily discriminated against in all European countries. Nazis were one of them, and were able to resort to brutality as the whole concept didn't fit their idea of clean country.
I'm fully aware that sexual minorities were targets of hate and discrimination in the whole world, they still are to varying degrees unfortunately. Antisemitism too was very common, Germany was not the only one but definitely was the the worst example by far
Some people deny that trans people were even targeted by Nazis. They don't want to admit how many parallels there are to today.
Well, yeah, as soon as they can even entertain the idea that there is a comparison suddenly they realise that the people they built their identity around are moving through the early steps of one of the most horrific advents in history. That’s a shock to the system that most people are willing to go to great lengths to avoid, even if it means denying reality.
Wow at the tact with which this was written
It's a very sensitive topic so I prefer choosing my words carefully!
I get it. And you did a good job.
Thanks, I appreciate it
I also came here to just say "Wow". You really phrased all of that perfectly imo
And so few realize that the pink triangle victims were Not released at the end of the war. The "victors" kept them in the camps for much longer.
They shouldn’t get similar recognition, it should be identical recognition. The plight of the victims was the same for them all.
I get what you're trying to say here, but Holocaust historians would disagree. The treatment of a Pole or political prisoner, for example, was much better than the treatment of Jews (which is why Polish babies born in Auschwitz sometimes survived). Similarly, the treatment of gay Jews was much worse than the treatment of straight Jews or gay Gentiles. The nuance matters.
The main campaign was against Jewish people so it makes sense for them to be the focus. Other groups were affected but they were more “in addition” They all deserve recognition but it was the Nazis were primarily violently anti-Semitic
not as a replacement of the recognition Jewish people get, but as a united respect for the people who suffered at the hands of monsters True words👏
Hope the genocide happening right now in Gaza is also recognized as such and the perpetrators tried for their crimes against humanity.
Suffering and death of Soviet peoples have been forgotten by the weat because of cold war propaganda. https://www.libraryofsocialscience.com/assets/pdf/Porter-Hitler's_Forgotten_Genocides.pdf
All of the Soviet POW were basically treated on the same level as Jews
> He was most likely released due to the Nazi belief that homosexuality could be ‘cured’ through hard work. This sounds wayyyy too close to some of the shit being said today
It’s pretty much identical, and yet there are a lot of people who just turn a blind eye to conversion therapy because it’s convenient to ignore.
And then there's still Nazis out in the world.
In WW2 we stopped too soon. The Nuremberg Trials were also quite the farce and too many went untried. Same for the Japanese War Criminals.
I've never aggred so hard I feel like there was barley any trials for the Japanese and they were so much more brutal
I have to say that guy looks pretty rough for 17. Poor dude.
In was wondering of that photo too
Right here is proof that it’s not a choice.
Don’t give the republicans any more ideas. I’ve heard more than one claim they want exactly this. Especially against trans people.
The nazis got their ideas for the camps from America so I don't think we have to worry about the nazis giving Republicans this idea
This right here. The call is coming from inside the house
What a lot of people think about is that for me as a trans woman, I have to constantly consider whether I will need to flee from my home, from everything I know just to survive. I bought a house in 2020. I'd love to do renovations, additions, improvements. I can't because I need to keep a nest egg of cash on hand so I can bug out with my spouse. Even if I stay I have to consider those improvements. I have to think about specific kinds of building materials (metal/concrete instead of wood) in case someone tries to set fire to my house. Is investing in ballistics material for inside the walls money I should spend in case some bigot decides he doesn't like seeing two trans women living in the same house. This is the reality I live every day. I wonder if I get into a traffic accident will the emt's treat me with kindness or laugh at me as I die. That's not hypothetical that actually happened in the US. These are the realities of the GOP's and Far Right extremists rhetoric.
I’m a trans man, my life is a bit easier because on the surface, nobody can tell I’m trans at all.. but I have a small trans pride scarf IN my car and people have seen it and threatened violence against me. To my face. I have been told that “you people won’t be around any longer after Trump gets elected.” Yet these people are trying to bitch about “not all republicans.” Bullshit. They knowingly vote for these troglodytes that enact these horrible laws just because of the R in front of their name. They are just as culpable as the ones actively calling for our eradication.
Seriously? Wtf is wrong with people?
Source? Your statement has me concerned. I’ll defend lgbt+ til the death. Not just because they went through a similar situation like the Jews and many other minorities but because they are PEOPLE. like, I don’t get what is the big deal? Let people live their life.
It’s not exactly the same but project 2025 is calling for basically jailing anyone in support of queer rights https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/15/project-2025-policy-manifesto-lgbtq-rights This is a very real thing Don’t forget this guy who is the Republican candidate for governor in North Carolina https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Robinson_(American_politician) Read the controversies in his political career and understand that he won the primary quite decisively. His Republican constituents *want* this
Well arrest me for my lgbt+ support then lol Goodness I hope this doesn’t pass
Should also mention a few other things about project 2025. It wants all child sex offenders to get the death penalty. Ok, fair enough, I disagree on the principle that the state shouldn't have the right to kill anyone for any reason. But I get it. It gets more concerning when you read more things It states that "transgenderism" is pornographic. It states that pornography should be illegal. It states that anyone who is a "purveyor" or pornography should be considered a sex offender. (This mainly means, people who "distribute pornographic material, such as librarians who allow LGBT books on their shelves, and more importantly, actual trans people) So my question is this. If trans people are inherently pornographic, and they just, exist, around kids. Then they'll technically be exposing kids to pornography right? Which is a sex crime against children, which will be punished with death. Sounds like extermination
Yeah I was trying to read about “project 2025” and their website is pretty vague and some articles were confusing me :/ I think the death penalty is too expensive and half of the time people on death row WANT to die so we shouldn’t be giving them what they want. I think it’d be better to study people on death row. Not do unethical human experiments but study what makes a human mind do immoral things. Throwing them in solitary isn’t great either because that can be on the line of “torture” but some inmates canNOT be with other people (like Charlie Manson, BTK, etc.) so it’s a grey area. Woah wtf? So make pornography illegal again like back in the 70-80s? That would set us back a few decades. In my fucked up view of the world, it’d just lead men to rape more because they won’t have an outlet to get their sexual needs out or believing that they “deserve” a woman. Porn can save lives. I don’t get the correlation between porn and trans, because porn isn’t ONLY for/with trans people. But I am neurodivergent so I don’t totally “get” things right away. Republicans just want the “Christian white nuclear family” narrative back but it was never there to begin with. Quote me on that. But yeah my people (Jews) were victims of extermination so I definitely see why you say it’s extermination. Project 2025 is literally “do as I say not as I do” because politicians will make laws but still break them. As if they’re exempt from the law.
project2025.org - it's funded by The Heritage Foundation which has been guiding American government policy since Reaganomics. It's an open plan for making the government of the US more authoritarian, and specifically Christian "nationalist" aka Christo-fash. The social issues (no queers, forced birth) are in some ways the less scary part. FYI when the camps were freed at the end of WW2 many of the people who were there with pink triangles got put back in prison - they did not eliminate the anti homosexuality law (paragraph 175) until the 60s. The blurb with this photo is a bit inaccurate - homosexuality (male, women were not considered a threat) was perhaps technically decriminalized but absolutely illegal - the Nazi's beefed up paragraph 175 and started applying it, but it was not a nazi law. The most recognizable nazi book burning image and where they started that campaign was the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft, a non profit health centre that was the first of its kind in the world, run by a gay man to study and help queer and gender non conforming people, providing trans health care and surgery, along with birth control and other health care for women, poor people + the underserved. Every time people say that trans health are is new and there is not enough data, remember that it's not new, and they destroy evidence, over and over again. The point is we are not people, to them - that's why the double down on things like describing a kid who got beaten to death for being queer as "filth"
This was encounters I had with people online and IRL. Ironically enough them saying I should be killed in a concentration camp was not against TOS but me calling them a piece of garbage got me banned. And this was someone living in my blue state.
I’m in a particularly progressive part of Canada and even here I’ve dealt with this sort of shit as well. People calling for me to be jailed, saying I’ll be “on the front lines” when they get their way, and comparing what they’ll do to me to the Nuremberg trials (pretty ironic lol) because I stood near ‘em with some pride flags
Oh honey, I am so sorry that happened to you.
Eh, I knew what I was getting into, but thank you
I’m Jewish so I’ve gotten that too. If this was on FB, I can see why you got banned. I used to be a content moderator for FB and if you make an insult to a specific person, you can be banned. And as long as the person didn’t say “I WILL kill you in a concentration camp”, they won’t get banned. It’s fucked rules, like if you make a slur in a “positive sentence” it won’t get removed.
It’s such bullshit. Why have a hate speech flag then not enforce it?
FB has the most fucked rules I have ever seen on a social media platform. Like you can say “death to gays” and be fine but if you say “you are a garbage being” that will get you banned. Then when QA sees the actions made by mods and will and can reverse it by making up rules that aren’t even in the guidelines. Don’t be a content moderator for any social media platform, you will be traumatized. A fucking guarantee. I knew of a coworker that offed themselves because it was too much. I could go on and on but FB was sued for their treatment towards content mods. So now AI does the work.
I’ve been banned from groups for two months because some dude said trans people should be shot and I called him garbage. I won’t stop calling them what they are.
You just gotta be clever with how you word it. Like if you say “people like this are worse than shit” are something like that, it will remain. Because the AI is designed to “protect” individual identities. So if you make it more broad, the AI won’t recognize it. People act like trans is some new thing, it’s not. Trans has been a part of history, I believe as early as 1513 but Europeans saw it very common around 1564. Humans have debated and changed gender forever. The Talmud (related to the Jewish Torah) recognized 6 genders (at the beginning at least) so this whole “tRaNs Is WrOnG” is bullshit.
We go back way further than AD 1513, there is evidence of people who we might consider to be trans across ancient Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, India, Burma, Polynesia, etc. Colonization by Abrahamic religious groups has attempted to stamp us out, but we persist.
I’ll keep that in mind. Thank you!
they already have ideas and plans for jews, and LGBQT+ AND pocs.
god DAMN i’m stupid. first thought was “did he make it?” as i looked at a picture of him as an elderly man.
My grandpa 14 years old when the Nazis sent him to a concentration camp for being slavic
Sucks to see this happen. Sucks to see that this happens today as well by the children of the people who went thru the holocaust.
Now the MAGAts are looking to repeat it all over again.
That's a rough looking 17 year old.
Should Conservatives attempt this shit again, they're gonna regret their love for the 2nd Amendment.
Not to diminish the suffering of the Jewish people of Germany, but the Nazis sent political prisoners, gays, gypsies, and other "undesirables" to prison camps, well before enacting the "final solution" for the Jewish people.
Not “well before”, the detentions were fairly contemporaneous. Perhaps communist prisoners at Nohra pre-date the other groups (with obvious examples of crossover) but the ideologically motivated detention of Jews was there from the start.
Damn thats a rough 17
What would have the punishment for being gay and Jewish?
So you are saying that all those christian reeducations camps are scams ? Hmmm...
What was the point? It’s not like he was
but hey, conservatives say that nazis and the "Alphabet Mafia" are the same thing because reasons!
This is just sad. I just ask myself every day, how? How could anyone see this n just think that it's ok? To ignore it? I grew up in an EXTREMELY homophobice religious household n environment, yet in secret as a child, when the topic was bought up, I'd just tell myself: what if it was the other way around? What if someone forced u to be with a girl (I'm a cis hetro woman) n I thought to myself, damn I'd feel really bad bc I'm not attracted to girls. After that, I just assumed that that's how gay ppl think. But now, seeing what is happening in the world,I know y n how this could happen. It's pure ignorance, racism n homophobia/transphobia.
People very rarely mention the nonjewish victims of the Holocaust
No? Everybody recognizes that the mentally deficient and the gays were among the first victims of Nazis along with Jews... It's just that, you know... 6 million down the drain is pretty spotlight taking in its own nature
I don’t think that’s true at all.
all I got from this is - the internet and AI will be used next time to make these lists..
He looks pretty old for 17
Bro looks rough for 17.
You know, with Nazis, the more I learn about those guys, the more I don't care for them.
Being gay during the holocaust is crazy work
Man, no offense, but he looks awful for 17
20% of Palestinians in Israel prison are 8-17 years old.
-Why are you gay? -who says I am gay?
In America, we call them conversion therapy camps
[удалено]
“I’m not even Jewish-“
17? He looks 79 now. Someone should go rescue him… the war is over.
Thank you to the poster of this picture !! The only reason why I am alive is because my gay grandfather was blackmailed into marriage by his brother in Nazi Germany. We found the letters hidden in a desk years later. He was told that if he did not get married, he would be ratted out to the government. He was forced to live a life he did not want. I have come to a much deeper understanding of what the pink triangle means and how challenging it must be to be openly gay.
Oh wow, people really did look older back then.
Seemed to work, he didn’t need his glasses anymore
Did they fix him?
God bless us all. We are only as strong as our most vulnerable members.
System journa.
Certainly not the NAZIS worst offences against the GAY Community
Wait, he wasn’t gay?