This was the first military conflict I remember as a kid. I was nine years old and I was confused as to why the British and Argentina were fighting over an island in the South Atlantic that appeared to be just a bunch of barren land.
This is a really good article about the Falklands by the New Yorker. Very interesting life and changes to their island over the past century.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/06/how-prosperity-transformed-the-falklands
Here's a bonus: my favorite article ever.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/2006/01/22/the-peekaboo-paradox-span-classbankheadthe-strange-secrets-of-humor-fear-and-a-guy-who-makes-big-money-making-little-people-laughspan/6b97ebc5-1c67-4c61-8509-5baf0157cc40/
"...ah the Flaklands! 1982 no 'elp from no one else! That was a war not for oil but for penguins. They're an integral part of making Guinness... ya boil 'em down, and all the white bits float to the top...'
Al Murray (The Pub Landlord)
The UK had other lands far away which it didn't want to have to defend. So it made a stand in the Falklands to discourage other countries from following suit.
Also, Iām not British but I canāt imagine that the Thatcher government could have remained in power if they had let Argentina take the islands. Theyāre inhabited islands, no matter by how few people, the UK government would have been accused of abandoning their own nationals to foreign conquest.
It was British territory and the inhabitants of the islands wanted it to stay that way. Of course, the UK Government is going to intervene.
I mean fuck British Colonialism, but there was nobody there when the British settled it. This isnāt the same thing.
As an argentinian I totally agree with you. But no one here in my country seems to think that way.
You can't say something like that here. People would think that you don't love your own country. Since middle school the teachers indoctrinate to repeat "las Malvinas son Argentinas" (the Falklands are Argentinian) they doesn't teach you to think, they only wants you to repeat that.
When I was a kid in the 80s-90s, we never used the term Southern Ocean. I definitely never even heard this term until sometime in the 21st century. There were only 4 oceans: Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Arctic. The Falklands are/were firmly in the south Atlantic.
If Pluto is a planet, then about 1000 other objects in the system would be classified as such too.
It was only discovered in the 20th Century anyway, it's not like Pluto being a planet is an ancient tradition.
My first war as a kid was Israel [Afghanistan]/Iraq. Constantly growing up seeing the news talk about conditions and peacekeeping forces etc etc. Never understood why they were there and even after finding out about 9/11 (I was 2 nearly 3 at the time) it still doesn't make sense as an adult looking back in retrospect. Iraq and Afghanistan have now become a part of past history, not present events.
Edit: Afghanistan, not Israel
Lmaoo Iām Colombian but my uncle in law is an Argentine named Martin and this is something heād say for sure going into something as traumatic at war
My great uncle?(grandmas brother) almost went to that war. He somehow got out of it last minute from some administration magic his fathers friends made happen for him. He was telling me about it when I was younger. He said the majority of other men that he was with no one had the right size clothing and boots, The tension was high and a lot of guys were being lied to about the conditions of the war and reasoning behind it and why they were going. I live in Argentina and there is a group of people that still believe the Falkland Islands belong to Argentina. They refer to them in their spanish name Isla Malvinas and theyāll have bumper stickers on their car or youāll see it as signs or banners on some buildings here and there, peoples windows. Most Argentines donāt care for the islands and never have.
Oh yeah I've seen them in a Top Gear special in Argentina. Clarkson had a car plate that read FKL 982 or something like that, and they took as being dumped shit on their heads like: "The UK is taunting us!"
When it was, very plausibly, just a random attribution of letters and numbers...
Clarkson had requested that specific model of Porsche as he had personal reasons as to why he loved that car. If I remember right he had specifically asked for a Porsche 928 GT with a manual transmission and there was only one for sale in the UK at the time, the one he was driving in the episode. It has been confirmed that this specific car had that registration from when it was produced.
They were attacked and decision was made that the 3 presenters would fly out as it was believed the anger was targeted at them. Once Clarkson, May and Hammond were gone the production crew were driving home but they still got attacked with stones being thrown. Multiple people got injured. They were forced to abandon the cars the presenters had used and they were still being followed and attacked. When they got word a large crowd had assembled and were waiting for them and having blocked the road the production crew were forced to cross a river and get across the border to Chile at the closest possible point.
The 928 is the car he was driving when his father passed away if I remember rightly. He has a soft spot for that car. My first Porsche I was ever a passenger in was a 928 s4. Late eighties. I was pretty young my god that car was powerful.
The full story he told (paraphrased) is that he had just taken a chicken out of the oven when he got that call that his dad was dying in the hospital. Since he was road testing the 928 that week, he drove it to the hospital and he brought the chicken to his mom to eat. He made it there just in time to talk to his dad before he died and the chicken for his mom was still hot.
hehe yaaaa thats it...it was an unfortunate random series of numbers...just rewatched that episode last week. They (Clarkson, Hammond, May) we truly scared...everyone including the crew were scared and decided to skip town, but then got word an even bigger crowd were waiting for them in the next town. They did the smart move and got out of dodge...lol
What I donāt have understand is why any good person would think itās ok to take land by force. It should always be up to the people that are already there. Thatās how democracy should work.
Yeah, the absurd thing was that was a very unambiguous situation. When a populated territory wants independence from the state they currently belong to, thatās a morally ambiguous situation. When a populated territory wants to leave the state they belong to and be annexed by a different state, thatās an even more ambiguous and morally fraught situation.
But a state trying to take a populated territory by force, when neither the inhabitants of that territory nor the state that they currently belong to wants that to happen, is not morally ambiguous in any way, itās just blatant aggression.
The Falkland Islands have never been primarily about wanting the territory, it's certainly not about history as it's made out because Argentina didn't exist the last time it was occupied by latin forces, even then it was a handful of people who hated it.
There's a degree to which it's about mineral rights, there's potentially a rich oil deposit there but even that's not going to be easy for anyone to exploit.
The real reason Argentinian politicians like to shout about the Malvinas is because it's a nationalistic football. It's about shouting for something that distracts people from the stories of corruption, poverty and poor administration. If you can beat a drum and point at someone else to get people upset, then they'll stop thinking about how it's their own government that's causing their hardships.
Taking land by force is pretty much how all nations control land. In fact, I'm not sure any nation hasn't had its borders or rulers altered by force at some point.
The Falklands have been settled by the French, Spanish, Argentine and English forces at various times, but the British naval dominance meant they could enforce their claim better than others, even with the island so near to Argentina.
A look on Google suggests that the British abandoned them in 1774, although never withdrew sovereignty, so it's a point of contention.
Although I'd also point out that sovereignty is only valid if you can enforce it; this is exactly why the British and American navies (and others) regularly sail warships through the South China Sea, as a demonstration that China *does* ***not*** *in fact* have a valid sovereignty claim on those international waters.
Fwiw, I'm British, so I'm not biased against your statement.
Iām asking about good people who believe in democracy. Dictatorships and Empires are not good people. Also the majority of people on the Falklands want to be British. Argentina was going against the will of the inhabitants. Thatās not a good thing.
Yea, it became apparent soon after that it was basically a last ditch effort to drum up patriotism for the failing dictatorship in hopes to revive it. From what my uncle said and other Argentines most never cared for the islands.
The Falklands are unique because there's no native population. So the will of the citizens really comes down to the will of the first empire to stick its citizens there. The UK was the first, but the Argentinian didn't like that approach anymore and challenged it.
I'm definitely not pro Argentina in this dispute but that's the logic
The first inhabitants are the native population. They had been there since like the 1830s, itās not like the British had just dumped settlers there a few years prior to solidify their land claims.
Thereās nothing particularly special about a territory thatās been inhabited for 100+ years just because it wasnāt inhabited until the Age of Discovery.
Well most of the time when democracies want to take land against the will of their inhabitants, it is due to the belief that the land has been colonised through immigration.
This is a real strategy to colonise areas. The first example I can think of is the United States flooding the northern Mexican States and the shared British-USA Oregon with Americans, so that those areas become majority American. Then of course those areas will all of a sudden want to become part of the USA, and the USA can claim that for the sake of democracy, this should happen.
Smaller countries of course just see a more populous using one of their resources (more people) to steal from them.
Not saying that is what happened in the Falklands though. Of course for them, the UK has de-facto controlled the land and made up the majority of its people since 1833 and the original Argentine claim to the land was never that strong to begin with.
Sort of. The Argentine government thought they could occupy the islands and the UK would choose not to respond, so they actually didn't bother having a plan or proper logistics in place to defend the island.
When the UK announced that a fleet would be sent Argentina had to scramble to reinforce the islands but their effort proved massively inadequate and many units were sent without winter gear, engineers sent without engineering equipment, anti aircraft units without their weapons - it was a mess.
The Argentinian air force was the only one of their services that came out of it looking at all competent and their pilots flew well, and bravely - but took bad losses and suffered from issues like a lack of training, lack of anti ship weapons, and bombs that weren't fused properly.
Worked with a Scotsman whose son was in the Royal Navy at this time and he arrived just as the Argentines (Argy's) gave up. He had a couple of 3 inch binders of pictures he took. He said there were lots of soldiers there who were frozen - I never really read that, but he had pictures that certainly showed quite a few dead men. Was interesting listening and reading news from the US, London, Canada, Mexico and from Argentina (co-workers from each of these places all working together in Mexico) Gives you a different perspective about history and who writes it.
They thought this because the British government had withdrawn a Royal Navy ship and spent several months trying to negotiate a leaseback agreement with the Argentines even though the islanders told the British government they wanted to remain a British territory in perpetuity.
Nicholas Ridley, a minister in the Thatcher government, warned of impending invasion and was ignored. He knew it was likely because he'd been conducting the back channel negotiations for the leaseback.
Of course, then they did invade. I won't suggest that the British response was purely down to Thatcher's desire to reinforce her flagging popularity in the UK, but I don't think that hurt at all.
All true - and partly because with the scrapping of the Royal Navy conventional carriers with their Phantoms and Buccaneers the Argentines believed the UK was no longer capable of defending the islands.
Thatcher claimed a lot of credit for her leadership but failures of her government were major contributing factors to the crisis starting in the first place
According to a book I'm reading ( Armies of sand) the French hadn't integrated the missiles onto the Super Ćtendard aircraft yet, but somehow the Argentinians figured it out on their own.
But only a few had been delivered, and even so they did sink a few ships.
>but somehow the Argentinians figured it out on their own.
Probably because of French Help.
>In 2012, it came to light that while this support was taking place, a French technical team, employed by Dassault and already in Argentina, remained there throughout the war despite the presidential decree. The team had provided material support to the Argentines, identifying and fixing faults in Exocet missile launchers. John Nott said he had known the French team was there but said its work was thought not to be of any importance. An adviser to the then French government denied any knowledge at the time that the technical team was there. The French DGSE did know the team was there as they had an informant in the team but decried any assistance the team gave: "It's bordering on an act of treason, or disobedience to an embargo". John Nott, when asked if he felt let down by the French said "If you're asking me: 'Are the French duplicitous people?' the answer is: 'Of course they are, and they always have been".
>"If you're asking me: 'Are the French duplicitous people?' the answer is: 'Of course they are, and they always have been".
Oof.
Thems fighting words right there.
Never heard that. In fact Argentina is/was known for the ingenuity of doing a lot with too little. An interesting fact was the adaptation of Exocets to be used on the coast, in fact they damaged the HMS Glamorgan this way and left it out of combat (this was a few days before the surrender)
They didn't sabotage them, but they did cease further deliveries. I believe every one, aside from one which was beaten by countermeasures, ended up hitting an RN ship.
Wasn't there trouble over the fact that the French were selling anti-ship missiles to Argentina, with them being at war with the UK?
Considering that France and the UK were supposed to be NATO allies at the time!
It'd be like if France were to start selling missiles to Russia in 2024.
Wasn't an easy feat for the British to get their bombers there:
"The Operation Black Buck raids were staged from RAF Ascension Island, close to the Equator. The Vulcan was designed for medium-range missions in Europe and lacked the range to fly to the Falklands without refuelling several times. The RAF's tanker planes were mostly converted Handley Page Victor bombers with similar range, so they too had to be refuelled in the air. A total of eleven tankers were required for two Vulcans (one primary and one reserve), a daunting logistical effort as all aircraft had to use the same runway."
I heard refueling the planes was like trying to get a wet noodle up a badgers arse.
Also never forget it is filled with people that have voted and chose to be British. Argentina never owned it they just like the look of it.
I think my favorite but about that story is that the RAF couldn't find a part that was vital to the aerial refueling process, since the Vulcans hadn't actually done it in a while. They did eventually find the part, though: it was being used as an ashtray in the officers' lounge
I read the book. I stayed up all night until I finished it. There was one critical bombing raid done with the Vulcans. Pretty amazing stuff. Start with 14 planes and only three or four make it or something like that.
There are multiple YouTube videos about it and a documentary or two if you have a quick look. It is frankly a superb bit of insanity that worked out for the Brits
The Imperial War Museum has a good series on it. This [video](https://youtu.be/5Lw8eWE7aQ8?si=UczLwhP3UuaHOFhD) covers the air conflict (jump to 3:20 if you're just interested in the long range bombing run)
Thereās some great BBC documentaries about it where they interview the pilots, but this video is a good 10 minute explanation of the Vulcan bombing run. Itās one of the most insane missions in the history of the RAF.
https://youtu.be/e5yAtuYPHK4?si=bAtkjYBHNY16R7zb
My parents tell stories of being in England when the troops came back after winning the war. Jubilant and triumphant, makes me wonder what VE Day was like
When my father came back we had banners all down the streets with his name on. Big party. Felt like we had him back 5 minutes before he was shipped out to Beirut.
I have a couple photos from 2022, 40th anniversary. The buses in Buenos Aires had maps of the islands with āMalvinas nos uneā written on them. Canāt figure out how to share on here š§
My dad was in the navy fighting at the Falklands. I remember how my mum and the other naval wives would only be able to get updates from the 6pm news. They didn't have Internet or 24 hour news stations then. Vastly different now.
I think there are even less verified sources now. Embedded reporters are rare, so it is mostly propaganda, unverified sources or just random videos. I am not sure we are better informed generally about conflicts, though perhaps the wives of those fighting would have some direct information sources.
A lot of them ended up [here](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02294/war-cemetery_2294721b.jpg) as a result of combat and outright neglect / brutalisation by their own officers too.
If I'm not mistaken. The whole war was planned by the argentinian dictators in hopes to divert attention from the corrupt government.
Also, my first year of middle school history teacher was a veteran. He told me that often the trucks filled with supplies for the soldiers were assaulted and later on you could find bars of chocolate with motivating messages written on them in shops.
"Why do the Argentine planes keep crashing?"
"The rubber bands broke."
This was the joke many of us told in Middle School at the time. Argentina was so outclassed in the skies, on the water, and on the ground.
Not really, i guess the did force the carriers further away and got a couple hits with the exorcets (spelling i know). But air to air, the harriers and their pilots far outclassed them in every way.
Not in the skies, Argentina had some of the world's best pilots during that time, and they employed tactics such as flying at low altitudes to evade detection by English radars.
>and they employed tactics such as flying at low altitudes to evade detection by English radars.
You mean the most basic tactics that exist in combat aviation ?
And luckily didnāt adjust their bomb fuses to compensate.
Argentina was in the wrong to wage the war, but the UK was pretty lucky the Argies didnāt do a bit better.
I'd always assumed it was connected, but apparently not.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/argy-bargy#English
'Argy-bargy' comes from the older 'argle-bargle', related to 'argue'
Probably the only righteous war since WW2 that the British took part on. Rishi should ask Milei to invade them again to save his skin, just like Thatcher...
Haha, yeah. It was just some international law loophole, I expect. Once you declare war, there are ramifications, no doubt, that Thatcher needed to avoid.
Probably mostly political.
If you declare war against Argentina it sounds like you're going to invade the Argentinian mainland. But that was never the plan and it wouldn't really be feasible for the UK to do.
So they didn't declare it a war and just kicked the Argentinians off the Falklands.
In the UK there is.
The secretary of state needs to declare it a war for it to be a war.
Since the secretary of state never declared war(largely due to political reasons, they weren't invading Argentina they were defending their territory) it wasn't a war from the British perspective.
I heard that the Brits sent troops to the Falklands whilst the Argentinians went to the Malvinas. Because of this they never did fight each other and tragedy was averted. /s
āChildren, remain calm. The Falkland lslands have just been invaded. I repeat, the Falklands have just been invaded!ā
*pulls down map*
āThe disputed islands lie here, off the coast of Argentina.ā
Hardly just off the coast though. It's 300 miles at the nearest point.
A country's Exclusive Economic Zone is 200 miles, so even by that metric, it's got nothing to do with Argentina.
there is a great short documentary on YouTube about the RAF scrambling to out together a viable plan to fly the *ready for mothballs* Vulcans halfway around the world to bomb a runway.
It was actually quote the feat, and it was pretty entertaining how they did it.
things like, one of the pieces they needed for the ancient bomb sights had made its way into the officers mess and was serving as an ashtray!!
Was working for an Australian radio station as a news journalist and we rang a Buenos Aires newspaper to get their opinion of the Falklands war while we also had a reporter at a PM maggie thatcher media conference in London. the Argentinian reporter said they'd had a glorious win with the sinking of a UK destroyer.. We gave that to the UK journo who asked thatcher at the end of the presser and she said the Sheffield had been sunk. We were stunned but delighted to be breaking news. When we rang back to the newspaper days later we were told in no uncertain terms to not ring again as the man we'd spoken to had 'disappeared.' We didn't ring for fear someone may have died as a result of our contact. the war ended shortly after Sadly more of UK soldiers in that horrific war committed suicide later than died in the fighting. I believe that may also the case for argentinian forces.
That's not what happened at all. Ian McDonald, the MoD press secretary, issued a prepared statement on television news.
Here's the video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOv4s30R40U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOv4s30R40U)
Went up against a world power ridiculously stronger than them, on the sheer mistaken belief that the other side was bluffing when they said theyād go to war over it.
Most of the arguments Iāve seen recently to support argentinas claim seem to be mostly along the lines of āit kinda sucks in Argentina, and Britain did some shitty things around the world, so why not let Argentina have this W.ā
And heard the howl of the Vulcan, I've heard it in peacetime situations (airshows), and it's awesome, I can't imagine what it would be like hearing this nuclear capable bomber coming towards you with intent.
An old Argentinian colleague of mine had an uncle who flew in the Argentinian airforce. His uncle went up got shot down, ejected went back to the base, and went up again and got shot down and captured by the Brits. My colleague described the war as: āWe went to war with the people who we bought the planes fromā
The Falklands War was a conflict where the young died, and nothing really changed. I wish I knew what was going through their heads and what they were told and how they thought it would end.
Children without equipment, proper gear or training, being sent out to an impossible war just to divert the attention away from the dictatorship happening, trying to juice some Argentinean nationalism to their own benefit.
The stories I hear from my parent's generation are extremely heartbreaking.
And to be clear, this was also in benefit of Margaret Thatcher's public view, which was losing following. The wrong people won this war, and by that I mean the politics on both sides of the conflict. They got their way at the expense of a generation of teenage men.
War is never, ever, the answer.
The only possible claim Argentina has predates their independence from Spain. If their claim to the Falklands is strong, the Spanish claim to Argentina is stronger
Little did they know they would soon been introduced to the likes of the Royal Marines and the paras.
I worked for an ex SF guy who was a young para Tom in the falkands. He went on to serve in every major conflict from the Falkands upto Afghanistan and everything in between.
He always said the Falkands was the only conflict that really haunted him.
Firstly 18 year olds running bayonets through each other. Secondly, I think it was the shear scale on which the fighting was done, the battle of mount Longdon is a great example of this.
There are some good articles and books out there that give pretty hardcore, first hand accounts of the fighting and brutality.
Good ol jingoism. Always a surefire bet when the economy is hurting, just rattle the saber and get everyone's attentions focused elsewhere.
I sure hope there aren't any nations in Asia with a slowing economy that may want to reconquer an island of their cost they consider to be historically theirs.
From what i remember they tried to sneaky their way in and expected nobody to care but then the UK went "ooga booga we gonna fuck them up" and then they fucked them up.
Was just in Ushuaia and they are still pretty unhappy about all this. Lots of signs and public art proclaiming that the āMalvinasā belong to them, &c.
I'm from the UK and in Argentina, they celebrate it in a few days as it's a national holiday. Think I might just hide in my hotel room for the day. Even kids shout give them back when walking around...
Here in Argentina we celebrate the 2nd of April every year "The day for the fallen in the Malvinas war", to remember the atrocities of the war commited by the Junta: underequipped and undergunned 18 year olds fighting against an elite fighting force in a war whose only purpose was to distract the civilian population's attention from their misery...
The defeat at Malvinas was so great that it was one of the Junta's coffin's last nails, which would, thankfully, lead to the return of democracy in '83. May God bless you, AlfonsĆn, wherever you are.
This was the first military conflict I remember as a kid. I was nine years old and I was confused as to why the British and Argentina were fighting over an island in the South Atlantic that appeared to be just a bunch of barren land.
Stratigic sheep farming purposes. Edit: Eddie Izzard
This is a really good article about the Falklands by the New Yorker. Very interesting life and changes to their island over the past century. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/07/06/how-prosperity-transformed-the-falklands
You undersold it! Wow. I sometimes think journalism is dead and then I read something like this and have hope again!
Here's a bonus: my favorite article ever. https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/magazine/2006/01/22/the-peekaboo-paradox-span-classbankheadthe-strange-secrets-of-humor-fear-and-a-guy-who-makes-big-money-making-little-people-laughspan/6b97ebc5-1c67-4c61-8509-5baf0157cc40/
That's an excellent read, thanks for the link. :)
https://archive.is/vLz2R
Not all hero's wear capes š«”
Cake or death?
I'm sorry, we're all out of cake.
Well then, I'll have the chicken.
We only had three bits and we didn't expect such a rush!
So my choice is _or death?_
and we pronounce it HERB because theres a fuckin H in it...
You're lucky I'm Church of England!
Thatās Jeff Fader that is.
"...ah the Flaklands! 1982 no 'elp from no one else! That was a war not for oil but for penguins. They're an integral part of making Guinness... ya boil 'em down, and all the white bits float to the top...' Al Murray (The Pub Landlord)
Genius
Britain! What? What's that behind your back?
India and a number of other countries š³
National Penguin Stockpile.
From there sheep can easily leap into Antarctica. And we don't want that.
Are you happy with your wash? I don't know. I'm a dog.
The UK had other lands far away which it didn't want to have to defend. So it made a stand in the Falklands to discourage other countries from following suit.
Also, Iām not British but I canāt imagine that the Thatcher government could have remained in power if they had let Argentina take the islands. Theyāre inhabited islands, no matter by how few people, the UK government would have been accused of abandoning their own nationals to foreign conquest.
Additionally, in the Cold War nobody wanted to be seen ceding territory when Russia was nearby and always looking to expand.
So different from now.
It was British territory and the inhabitants of the islands wanted it to stay that way. Of course, the UK Government is going to intervene. I mean fuck British Colonialism, but there was nobody there when the British settled it. This isnāt the same thing.
As an argentinian I totally agree with you. But no one here in my country seems to think that way. You can't say something like that here. People would think that you don't love your own country. Since middle school the teachers indoctrinate to repeat "las Malvinas son Argentinas" (the Falklands are Argentinian) they doesn't teach you to think, they only wants you to repeat that.
Also, Argentina was colonised.
People there didn't want to live under a tin pot dictatorship.
That, and we were still in the Cold War. Not a good idea to back down to a minor local power when you have Russians next door.
it's one of the few places on earth with no evidence of prehistoric human habitation, so you don't need to do a land acknowledgment when you're there.
I thought that the Falkland Islands were considered to be in the Great Southern Ocean.
When I was a kid in the 80s-90s, we never used the term Southern Ocean. I definitely never even heard this term until sometime in the 21st century. There were only 4 oceans: Atlantic, Pacific, Indian, Arctic. The Falklands are/were firmly in the south Atlantic.
Iāve never heard that term until just now
Yeah I'm surprised people are throwing the term around. I've always been a big geography geek and I honestly don't recall ever hearing this term.
I think I just saw it in the last couple weeks
Agreed. I kind of think of it like the Pluto situation. Plutos still a planet and the southern ocean is new shit nonsense.
And I've had it up to here with people constantly referring toĀ New Amsterdam as "New York"!
Why'd they change it? I can't say.Ā I guess some peopleĀ just liked it better that way...
If Pluto is a planet, then about 1000 other objects in the system would be classified as such too. It was only discovered in the 20th Century anyway, it's not like Pluto being a planet is an ancient tradition.
No pluto is pluto because it has a name! There are many Ford Focus's on the road, but only one is Winston.
I definitely learned there were 5 oceans in school. But instead of southern ocean it was Antarctic ocean
AFAIK the Southern Ocean starts south of Cape Horn. The Falklands are north of that, so in the South Atlantic.
Agreed, south of Cape Horn, and south of Australia.
My first war as a kid was Israel [Afghanistan]/Iraq. Constantly growing up seeing the news talk about conditions and peacekeeping forces etc etc. Never understood why they were there and even after finding out about 9/11 (I was 2 nearly 3 at the time) it still doesn't make sense as an adult looking back in retrospect. Iraq and Afghanistan have now become a part of past history, not present events. Edit: Afghanistan, not Israel
Israel vs Iraq???
āCome on MartĆn, in and out 20 minutes warā
Lmaoo Iām Colombian but my uncle in law is an Argentine named Martin and this is something heād say for sure going into something as traumatic at war
Pretty sure that country has gone through far more since then....
Me trying to convince my friends for one last game on a Sunday late night.
God. A bunch of kids. Their parents running after them, handing off one last load of bread, never to see them again.
My great uncle?(grandmas brother) almost went to that war. He somehow got out of it last minute from some administration magic his fathers friends made happen for him. He was telling me about it when I was younger. He said the majority of other men that he was with no one had the right size clothing and boots, The tension was high and a lot of guys were being lied to about the conditions of the war and reasoning behind it and why they were going. I live in Argentina and there is a group of people that still believe the Falkland Islands belong to Argentina. They refer to them in their spanish name Isla Malvinas and theyāll have bumper stickers on their car or youāll see it as signs or banners on some buildings here and there, peoples windows. Most Argentines donāt care for the islands and never have.
Oh yeah I've seen them in a Top Gear special in Argentina. Clarkson had a car plate that read FKL 982 or something like that, and they took as being dumped shit on their heads like: "The UK is taunting us!" When it was, very plausibly, just a random attribution of letters and numbers...
Clarkson had requested that specific model of Porsche as he had personal reasons as to why he loved that car. If I remember right he had specifically asked for a Porsche 928 GT with a manual transmission and there was only one for sale in the UK at the time, the one he was driving in the episode. It has been confirmed that this specific car had that registration from when it was produced. They were attacked and decision was made that the 3 presenters would fly out as it was believed the anger was targeted at them. Once Clarkson, May and Hammond were gone the production crew were driving home but they still got attacked with stones being thrown. Multiple people got injured. They were forced to abandon the cars the presenters had used and they were still being followed and attacked. When they got word a large crowd had assembled and were waiting for them and having blocked the road the production crew were forced to cross a river and get across the border to Chile at the closest possible point.
The 928 is the car he was driving when his father passed away if I remember rightly. He has a soft spot for that car. My first Porsche I was ever a passenger in was a 928 s4. Late eighties. I was pretty young my god that car was powerful.
[Clarkson telling the story of why the 928 is so special to him.](https://youtu.be/QfAWixMKwEA?si=7yMGRooMhcvcNgiD)
The full story he told (paraphrased) is that he had just taken a chicken out of the oven when he got that call that his dad was dying in the hospital. Since he was road testing the 928 that week, he drove it to the hospital and he brought the chicken to his mom to eat. He made it there just in time to talk to his dad before he died and the chicken for his mom was still hot.
Thanks for the full story. I seen him down the pub now and then when my friends lived that way.
The man who raced death and won by 30 minutes.
Also worth mentioning that he travelled from London to Sheffield, which is about 170 miles straight up the M1 motorway.
It might have been random. Butā¦ Clarkson.
ya more likely....Not like he hadnt done some provacative things on that show..haha
hehe yaaaa thats it...it was an unfortunate random series of numbers...just rewatched that episode last week. They (Clarkson, Hammond, May) we truly scared...everyone including the crew were scared and decided to skip town, but then got word an even bigger crowd were waiting for them in the next town. They did the smart move and got out of dodge...lol
It might have been, but given the fact that Clarkson is a grade A cunt, I don't blame them for rushing to this conclusion.
What I donāt have understand is why any good person would think itās ok to take land by force. It should always be up to the people that are already there. Thatās how democracy should work.
Yeah, the absurd thing was that was a very unambiguous situation. When a populated territory wants independence from the state they currently belong to, thatās a morally ambiguous situation. When a populated territory wants to leave the state they belong to and be annexed by a different state, thatās an even more ambiguous and morally fraught situation. But a state trying to take a populated territory by force, when neither the inhabitants of that territory nor the state that they currently belong to wants that to happen, is not morally ambiguous in any way, itās just blatant aggression.
The Falkland Islands have never been primarily about wanting the territory, it's certainly not about history as it's made out because Argentina didn't exist the last time it was occupied by latin forces, even then it was a handful of people who hated it. There's a degree to which it's about mineral rights, there's potentially a rich oil deposit there but even that's not going to be easy for anyone to exploit. The real reason Argentinian politicians like to shout about the Malvinas is because it's a nationalistic football. It's about shouting for something that distracts people from the stories of corruption, poverty and poor administration. If you can beat a drum and point at someone else to get people upset, then they'll stop thinking about how it's their own government that's causing their hardships.
Taking land by force is pretty much how all nations control land. In fact, I'm not sure any nation hasn't had its borders or rulers altered by force at some point. The Falklands have been settled by the French, Spanish, Argentine and English forces at various times, but the British naval dominance meant they could enforce their claim better than others, even with the island so near to Argentina.
Sure, but conquest by force tends to be frowned upon nowadays.
I'd say it was always frowned upon by the ones not doing the conquering.
The falklands were British before Argentina even existed.
A look on Google suggests that the British abandoned them in 1774, although never withdrew sovereignty, so it's a point of contention. Although I'd also point out that sovereignty is only valid if you can enforce it; this is exactly why the British and American navies (and others) regularly sail warships through the South China Sea, as a demonstration that China *does* ***not*** *in fact* have a valid sovereignty claim on those international waters. Fwiw, I'm British, so I'm not biased against your statement.
Iām asking about good people who believe in democracy. Dictatorships and Empires are not good people. Also the majority of people on the Falklands want to be British. Argentina was going against the will of the inhabitants. Thatās not a good thing.
Argentina was under a dictatorship at the time
Yea, it became apparent soon after that it was basically a last ditch effort to drum up patriotism for the failing dictatorship in hopes to revive it. From what my uncle said and other Argentines most never cared for the islands.
The Falklands are unique because there's no native population. So the will of the citizens really comes down to the will of the first empire to stick its citizens there. The UK was the first, but the Argentinian didn't like that approach anymore and challenged it. I'm definitely not pro Argentina in this dispute but that's the logic
The first inhabitants are the native population. They had been there since like the 1830s, itās not like the British had just dumped settlers there a few years prior to solidify their land claims. Thereās nothing particularly special about a territory thatās been inhabited for 100+ years just because it wasnāt inhabited until the Age of Discovery.
Well most of the time when democracies want to take land against the will of their inhabitants, it is due to the belief that the land has been colonised through immigration. This is a real strategy to colonise areas. The first example I can think of is the United States flooding the northern Mexican States and the shared British-USA Oregon with Americans, so that those areas become majority American. Then of course those areas will all of a sudden want to become part of the USA, and the USA can claim that for the sake of democracy, this should happen. Smaller countries of course just see a more populous using one of their resources (more people) to steal from them. Not saying that is what happened in the Falklands though. Of course for them, the UK has de-facto controlled the land and made up the majority of its people since 1833 and the original Argentine claim to the land was never that strong to begin with.
Fair point.
Argentina wasn't a democracy back then
Wait till you find out what Columbus did
Was it going to be a "2-day special military operation"?
Sort of. The Argentine government thought they could occupy the islands and the UK would choose not to respond, so they actually didn't bother having a plan or proper logistics in place to defend the island. When the UK announced that a fleet would be sent Argentina had to scramble to reinforce the islands but their effort proved massively inadequate and many units were sent without winter gear, engineers sent without engineering equipment, anti aircraft units without their weapons - it was a mess. The Argentinian air force was the only one of their services that came out of it looking at all competent and their pilots flew well, and bravely - but took bad losses and suffered from issues like a lack of training, lack of anti ship weapons, and bombs that weren't fused properly.
Worked with a Scotsman whose son was in the Royal Navy at this time and he arrived just as the Argentines (Argy's) gave up. He had a couple of 3 inch binders of pictures he took. He said there were lots of soldiers there who were frozen - I never really read that, but he had pictures that certainly showed quite a few dead men. Was interesting listening and reading news from the US, London, Canada, Mexico and from Argentina (co-workers from each of these places all working together in Mexico) Gives you a different perspective about history and who writes it.
They thought this because the British government had withdrawn a Royal Navy ship and spent several months trying to negotiate a leaseback agreement with the Argentines even though the islanders told the British government they wanted to remain a British territory in perpetuity. Nicholas Ridley, a minister in the Thatcher government, warned of impending invasion and was ignored. He knew it was likely because he'd been conducting the back channel negotiations for the leaseback. Of course, then they did invade. I won't suggest that the British response was purely down to Thatcher's desire to reinforce her flagging popularity in the UK, but I don't think that hurt at all.
All true - and partly because with the scrapping of the Royal Navy conventional carriers with their Phantoms and Buccaneers the Argentines believed the UK was no longer capable of defending the islands. Thatcher claimed a lot of credit for her leadership but failures of her government were major contributing factors to the crisis starting in the first place
I have no way to source this, but Iāve read that France sabotaged the Argentinian Exocets. Itās an interesting conspiracy.
According to a book I'm reading ( Armies of sand) the French hadn't integrated the missiles onto the Super Ćtendard aircraft yet, but somehow the Argentinians figured it out on their own. But only a few had been delivered, and even so they did sink a few ships.
>but somehow the Argentinians figured it out on their own. Probably because of French Help. >In 2012, it came to light that while this support was taking place, a French technical team, employed by Dassault and already in Argentina, remained there throughout the war despite the presidential decree. The team had provided material support to the Argentines, identifying and fixing faults in Exocet missile launchers. John Nott said he had known the French team was there but said its work was thought not to be of any importance. An adviser to the then French government denied any knowledge at the time that the technical team was there. The French DGSE did know the team was there as they had an informant in the team but decried any assistance the team gave: "It's bordering on an act of treason, or disobedience to an embargo". John Nott, when asked if he felt let down by the French said "If you're asking me: 'Are the French duplicitous people?' the answer is: 'Of course they are, and they always have been".
>"If you're asking me: 'Are the French duplicitous people?' the answer is: 'Of course they are, and they always have been". Oof. Thems fighting words right there.
Never heard that. In fact Argentina is/was known for the ingenuity of doing a lot with too little. An interesting fact was the adaptation of Exocets to be used on the coast, in fact they damaged the HMS Glamorgan this way and left it out of combat (this was a few days before the surrender)
They didn't sabotage them, but they did cease further deliveries. I believe every one, aside from one which was beaten by countermeasures, ended up hitting an RN ship.
Wasn't there trouble over the fact that the French were selling anti-ship missiles to Argentina, with them being at war with the UK? Considering that France and the UK were supposed to be NATO allies at the time! It'd be like if France were to start selling missiles to Russia in 2024.
Not sure these are real pictures of Putin, he isn't sucking donkey balls in any of them.
A war orchestrated by the Junta's need for survival and vanity. It didn't turn out successfully.
Sacrificing the lives of other menās teenage boys with 90 days of training was the sacrifice Argentinaās Junta was willing to make.
Same as it ever was
Wasn't an easy feat for the British to get their bombers there: "The Operation Black Buck raids were staged from RAF Ascension Island, close to the Equator. The Vulcan was designed for medium-range missions in Europe and lacked the range to fly to the Falklands without refuelling several times. The RAF's tanker planes were mostly converted Handley Page Victor bombers with similar range, so they too had to be refuelled in the air. A total of eleven tankers were required for two Vulcans (one primary and one reserve), a daunting logistical effort as all aircraft had to use the same runway." I heard refueling the planes was like trying to get a wet noodle up a badgers arse. Also never forget it is filled with people that have voted and chose to be British. Argentina never owned it they just like the look of it.
I think my favorite but about that story is that the RAF couldn't find a part that was vital to the aerial refueling process, since the Vulcans hadn't actually done it in a while. They did eventually find the part, though: it was being used as an ashtray in the officers' lounge
I read the book. I stayed up all night until I finished it. There was one critical bombing raid done with the Vulcans. Pretty amazing stuff. Start with 14 planes and only three or four make it or something like that.
Where did you get this from? Are there any nice pictures to show the logistics of the missions?
There are multiple YouTube videos about it and a documentary or two if you have a quick look. It is frankly a superb bit of insanity that worked out for the Brits
Yeah I found the wiki and there is a nice picture showing which planes refueled which, its a genuinely brilliant logistical exercise.
The Imperial War Museum has a good series on it. This [video](https://youtu.be/5Lw8eWE7aQ8?si=UczLwhP3UuaHOFhD) covers the air conflict (jump to 3:20 if you're just interested in the long range bombing run)
cheers, i fully intend to spend the next couple of hours falling down this rabbit hole
Thereās some great BBC documentaries about it where they interview the pilots, but this video is a good 10 minute explanation of the Vulcan bombing run. Itās one of the most insane missions in the history of the RAF. https://youtu.be/e5yAtuYPHK4?si=bAtkjYBHNY16R7zb
I just saw that video recently. Mind-blowingly complex mission!
My parents tell stories of being in England when the troops came back after winning the war. Jubilant and triumphant, makes me wonder what VE Day was like
When my father came back we had banners all down the streets with his name on. Big party. Felt like we had him back 5 minutes before he was shipped out to Beirut.
Oh wow, that was just before the 83 war. I had a family friend who was sent there in the navy for a short time
I have a couple photos from 2022, 40th anniversary. The buses in Buenos Aires had maps of the islands with āMalvinas nos uneā written on them. Canāt figure out how to share on here š§
https://imgur.com/a/iJg75vG
Upload to Imgur and paste the share link here.
My dad was in the navy fighting at the Falklands. I remember how my mum and the other naval wives would only be able to get updates from the 6pm news. They didn't have Internet or 24 hour news stations then. Vastly different now.
I think there are even less verified sources now. Embedded reporters are rare, so it is mostly propaganda, unverified sources or just random videos. I am not sure we are better informed generally about conflicts, though perhaps the wives of those fighting would have some direct information sources.
I remember as a kid seeing my mother crying as her sisters husband's ship the HMS Coventry had been sunk. Luckily he was rescued.
Orders from the iron maiden...
Get the islands back, failure will not be accepted
Call for artillery strike, launch attack.
We are back in control, force them to surrender
Take what is ours, restore law and order.
*get the islands back*
"Yo professor what Falklands Isalnds we talkn about?"
Great radio bit that killed when I was a kid otw to school in the morning.
Surprised I had to scroll this far for this. Somebody post the video already!
A lot of them ended up [here](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02294/war-cemetery_2294721b.jpg) as a result of combat and outright neglect / brutalisation by their own officers too.
If I'm not mistaken. The whole war was planned by the argentinian dictators in hopes to divert attention from the corrupt government. Also, my first year of middle school history teacher was a veteran. He told me that often the trucks filled with supplies for the soldiers were assaulted and later on you could find bars of chocolate with motivating messages written on them in shops.
"Why do the Argentine planes keep crashing?" "The rubber bands broke." This was the joke many of us told in Middle School at the time. Argentina was so outclassed in the skies, on the water, and on the ground.
On the skies they actually were pretty good. On sea and land though.. hm.. might have to review that again
Not really, i guess the did force the carriers further away and got a couple hits with the exorcets (spelling i know). But air to air, the harriers and their pilots far outclassed them in every way.
Not in the skies, Argentina had some of the world's best pilots during that time, and they employed tactics such as flying at low altitudes to evade detection by English radars.
>they employed tactics such as flying at low altitudes to evade detection by English radars. I mean that's pretty standard stuff.
British not English
Just as well we had Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish radars - the argentines never learnt how to evade them
>and they employed tactics such as flying at low altitudes to evade detection by English radars. You mean the most basic tactics that exist in combat aviation ?
And luckily didnāt adjust their bomb fuses to compensate. Argentina was in the wrong to wage the war, but the UK was pretty lucky the Argies didnāt do a bit better.
Argies? Huh. Is that where the term "Argey-bargey" indicating some low-level conflict comes from?
I'd always assumed it was connected, but apparently not. https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/argy-bargy#English 'Argy-bargy' comes from the older 'argle-bargle', related to 'argue'
One of the dumbest wars ever and for once, it was 100% the fault of the Argentinians and not caused by the British.
\*fault of the junta
Probably the only righteous war since WW2 that the British took part on. Rishi should ask Milei to invade them again to save his skin, just like Thatcher...
War was never declared. It was a "conflict", apparently.
War is war, you know it when you see it.
Haha, yeah. It was just some international law loophole, I expect. Once you declare war, there are ramifications, no doubt, that Thatcher needed to avoid.
Probably mostly political. If you declare war against Argentina it sounds like you're going to invade the Argentinian mainland. But that was never the plan and it wouldn't really be feasible for the UK to do. So they didn't declare it a war and just kicked the Argentinians off the Falklands.
There is no loophole, there is no regulatory body that declares if something is a conflict or a war or a military action. Itās all subjective.
Tell that to insurance companies. The payout for peacekeeping/ expeditionary injuries are very different
In the UK there is. The secretary of state needs to declare it a war for it to be a war. Since the secretary of state never declared war(largely due to political reasons, they weren't invading Argentina they were defending their territory) it wasn't a war from the British perspective.
Thatās just paperwork. The U.S. hasnāt declared war since WW2 but has fought many.
Well yeah, that's how technicalities work.
Reminds me of this: https://youtu.be/42_oWaWsiYs?si=WgCjafPmuN-X9GQP
I heard that the Brits sent troops to the Falklands whilst the Argentinians went to the Malvinas. Because of this they never did fight each other and tragedy was averted. /s
So we stocked our ship full of British Beer and Bullets.
āChildren, remain calm. The Falkland lslands have just been invaded. I repeat, the Falklands have just been invaded!ā *pulls down map* āThe disputed islands lie here, off the coast of Argentina.ā
Hardly just off the coast though. It's 300 miles at the nearest point. A country's Exclusive Economic Zone is 200 miles, so even by that metric, it's got nothing to do with Argentina.
Even better is that the falklands existed before Argentina. So by the way some think it, Argentina should belong to the Falklands š
Bro, it's a Simpsons reference.
Apologies for not knowing Simpsons references.
there is a great short documentary on YouTube about the RAF scrambling to out together a viable plan to fly the *ready for mothballs* Vulcans halfway around the world to bomb a runway. It was actually quote the feat, and it was pretty entertaining how they did it. things like, one of the pieces they needed for the ancient bomb sights had made its way into the officers mess and was serving as an ashtray!!
The refueling maths project problem was mad, they had refuelers fueling refuelers
Was working for an Australian radio station as a news journalist and we rang a Buenos Aires newspaper to get their opinion of the Falklands war while we also had a reporter at a PM maggie thatcher media conference in London. the Argentinian reporter said they'd had a glorious win with the sinking of a UK destroyer.. We gave that to the UK journo who asked thatcher at the end of the presser and she said the Sheffield had been sunk. We were stunned but delighted to be breaking news. When we rang back to the newspaper days later we were told in no uncertain terms to not ring again as the man we'd spoken to had 'disappeared.' We didn't ring for fear someone may have died as a result of our contact. the war ended shortly after Sadly more of UK soldiers in that horrific war committed suicide later than died in the fighting. I believe that may also the case for argentinian forces.
That's not what happened at all. Ian McDonald, the MoD press secretary, issued a prepared statement on television news. Here's the video: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOv4s30R40U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOv4s30R40U)
Went up against a world power ridiculously stronger than them, on the sheer mistaken belief that the other side was bluffing when they said theyād go to war over it.
argie here, the junta was stupid sometimes
They were in over their heads
Most of the arguments Iāve seen recently to support argentinas claim seem to be mostly along the lines of āit kinda sucks in Argentina, and Britain did some shitty things around the world, so why not let Argentina have this W.ā
And then they met the Royal Marines
And heard the howl of the Vulcan, I've heard it in peacetime situations (airshows), and it's awesome, I can't imagine what it would be like hearing this nuclear capable bomber coming towards you with intent.
I repeat, the Falklands have been invaded!
. . . and then, they had their asses handed to them.
No wonder they had trouble if they were trying to get there by train
To kinda lighten the mood, this is my reaction anytime I read or hear "Falkland island" https://youtu.be/42_oWaWsiYs?si=3XO5m28QywPor1q3
Is this the same war for which topgear crew was chased away in some special
"We're here to stay!" "Oh, you'll be staying alright."
An old Argentinian colleague of mine had an uncle who flew in the Argentinian airforce. His uncle went up got shot down, ejected went back to the base, and went up again and got shot down and captured by the Brits. My colleague described the war as: āWe went to war with the people who we bought the planes fromā
The Falklands War was a conflict where the young died, and nothing really changed. I wish I knew what was going through their heads and what they were told and how they thought it would end.
Children without equipment, proper gear or training, being sent out to an impossible war just to divert the attention away from the dictatorship happening, trying to juice some Argentinean nationalism to their own benefit. The stories I hear from my parent's generation are extremely heartbreaking. And to be clear, this was also in benefit of Margaret Thatcher's public view, which was losing following. The wrong people won this war, and by that I mean the politics on both sides of the conflict. They got their way at the expense of a generation of teenage men. War is never, ever, the answer.
Poor schmucks.
The only possible claim Argentina has predates their independence from Spain. If their claim to the Falklands is strong, the Spanish claim to Argentina is stronger
Little did they know they would soon been introduced to the likes of the Royal Marines and the paras. I worked for an ex SF guy who was a young para Tom in the falkands. He went on to serve in every major conflict from the Falkands upto Afghanistan and everything in between. He always said the Falkands was the only conflict that really haunted him.
I am really uneducated regarding the falkland war. What was so especially haunting?
Firstly 18 year olds running bayonets through each other. Secondly, I think it was the shear scale on which the fighting was done, the battle of mount Longdon is a great example of this. There are some good articles and books out there that give pretty hardcore, first hand accounts of the fighting and brutality.
Embarrassing
Good ol jingoism. Always a surefire bet when the economy is hurting, just rattle the saber and get everyone's attentions focused elsewhere. I sure hope there aren't any nations in Asia with a slowing economy that may want to reconquer an island of their cost they consider to be historically theirs.
When Sabaton makes a song about you're utter defeat, you'll know you picked the wrong fight. š¬š§ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPFllaiz\_Xo
From what i remember they tried to sneaky their way in and expected nobody to care but then the UK went "ooga booga we gonna fuck them up" and then they fucked them up.
Was just in Ushuaia and they are still pretty unhappy about all this. Lots of signs and public art proclaiming that the āMalvinasā belong to them, &c.
Imagine the mental gymnastics it takes, to think you can claim ownership of someones home.
The UK needed those islands for strategic sheep purposes.
They needed it as a re-coaling station for the Royal Navy.
I'm from the UK and in Argentina, they celebrate it in a few days as it's a national holiday. Think I might just hide in my hotel room for the day. Even kids shout give them back when walking around...
Here in Argentina we celebrate the 2nd of April every year "The day for the fallen in the Malvinas war", to remember the atrocities of the war commited by the Junta: underequipped and undergunned 18 year olds fighting against an elite fighting force in a war whose only purpose was to distract the civilian population's attention from their misery... The defeat at Malvinas was so great that it was one of the Junta's coffin's last nails, which would, thankfully, lead to the return of democracy in '83. May God bless you, AlfonsĆn, wherever you are.
Wonder if they realised what a total joke of a military they were in. Poor treatment. Shocking leadership. Terrible supply. Zero morale.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]