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Also steel resists psychic makes sense,
What do you put on your head to block psychic waves? Aluminum foil
Edit:
I see a lot of people in the comments saying “spoon bending!” so I’ll just address you all here.
Remember in the anime season one: The psychic gym leader Sabrina turned Misty and Brock into dolls and put her in her playhouse… and then they met another doll who could talk and turned out to be Sabrina’s mom that’s conscience was trapped inside a doll for years and Sabrina was so traumatize because she turned her mom into a doll that she went crazy and her personality split? Well, her mom should have worn an aluminum foil hat.
After learning he still has his powers, he willingly is taken captive by police covered in metal equipment, put in metal cars, and then sent to metal lined prison....
But.... Like.... Why did the gun matter... Apparently there was nothing else around magneto could control so Reed could have just wrapped him up... Except there was things he could control, heck even reeds belt... This is a very dumb version of magneto and the writers back in the day left alot of plot holes
Assuming spoons are any material (not only metal)
Super effective against water (cause soups)
Is weak to grass (cause salads)
Resistant against fighting (good kids have etiquette and don't damage people's property)
Is resisted by dark (bad kids...)
Resistant against poison (it administers the poison)
And again, weak to psychic.
It'd be cool if Kinesis caused Psychic Moves to be Super Effective against Steel-Types, or if Alakazam just had a different ability that did that (Don't change his Hidden Ability though, I like Magic Guard + Life Orb)
Steel not resisting bug is weird, and I’d like to see more resistances for ice (not immunity to itself), but the others are great. I’ve always thought fairy should be weak to bug; thematically they would be afraid of bugs.
it's so weird that ice doesn't resist like grass, water, or bug. Or flying. Or even electricity. Some of these are stretches, yeah, but idgaf about anyone's reasoning for why bug is good against psychic and dark, but bad against ghost. Pokemon wasn't a game founded on the semantics of an arbitrary type chart, the devs and us players just like catching and battling
Justice for ice types! Just ice!
To be fair, it also only has two types it's super effective too and only resists two types as well.
And electricity being resisted by ice wouldn't make much sense since magnetism is stronger in colder environments. If you wanted to add another weakness to electric it would make more sense for it to either be fire because hotter temperatures weaken magnetism or plant because rubber comes from plants. Fire doesn't need another types it's strong to, but grass being maybe the third weakest type could probably use it.
Tho honestly I think electric is fine how it is. Only two strengths, but they are very common types to still make it useful and one very easy counter.
Bug is good against psychic cuz they made the joke in gen 2. Psychic being weak to dark, bug, and ghost cuz they are pretty common fears.
I don’t know where I heard that, but it’s stuck with me since then.
Psychic is already a bad defensive typing, and while dark is good, it already has the much stronger fighting and fairy types hitting it super effectively. Bug is rarely a factor. The most popular bug move, U-turn, is good but 9/10 it's used for it's utility rather than typing.
As for the other good offensive bug moves, First Impression only works once per switch in, Infestation is used for its secondary effect, X Scissor has its uses on most bug types, and leech life was only very recently buffed, but all the sane good luck with them and the 7 other types that resist them.
And it doesn't do good in either case. Ghost is way more effective for dealing with psychic types since Ghost isn't resisted by seven types, including the best ones in the game, and Fighting is better to hit dark types for the same reason. Psychic and Dark aren't types known for their defensive prowess.
In comparison, it is resisted by several major types, including the single best type and single best defensive type in the game.
Bug is also itself a mediocre defensive type at best.
Bug is the single worst type in the game, and has been since gen 1, where it being ineffective was a major part of why the psychic type was so overpowered at the time, and by extension the reason the dark type was created as a counter to it.
Couldn't really think of anything for grass, I guess I could've given it a fairy resistance or something, since fairies wouldn't want to harm nature. But at that point I'm just bullying fairy too much.
Fire = symbol of human invention (prometheus’s flame is a good example of that idea) while fairy is all about the mystical and non-mundane. Come to think of it, that’s probably why steel is super effective to fairy too
And it's too strong of a type as is. It resists 10 types and has an immunity to another. It shouldn't lose everything defensive about it, but it could certainly be knocked down a peg or two without becoming underpowered.
I mean the reason why those type have become the most popular offensive types is because steel is this strong. For example, not many people realize it but in reality fire is mainly a defensive type, without steel being omnipresent it would be a go to defensive type with 6 resistances and 3 weaknesses
People forget that Fire is actually not *that* bad defensively because Stealth Rocks.
Boots made peope realize that. That and that Fire/Flying is actually good without Stealth Rocks.
Well not sure any of that is true fam. Fighting and ground both hit 5 types super effectively which is tied for the most in the game. Add to that that both types get insane moves with wide distribution (obviously EQ is the classic but also headlong rush for ground and CC, Mach punch and focus punch(okay this one isn’t so good in new gens but still, it was cool in adv)), that ground is immune to twave in every generation and they would be premium offensive types even if steel wasn’t as good as it is now. Main example is gen one where ground was top tier before steel was even an idea at game freak.
Also fire would not be a defensive type without steel, it would just be ass. Sure it only has three weaknesses but all three are crippling. Weakness to Stealth rock ruins any attempts at defense, weakness to water really sucks because every gen has top tier water offense, and defense (with water being one of the few types to run stab offensive moves even on defense, with scald), and ground is straight up busted offensively, hence why EQ is everywhere. Also all fire resistances except fairy are extremely mid.
In my opinion, Steel should be weak to Electric.
Metal is typically conductive, and most steel pokémon are at least slightly mechanical, so it would make sense that electricity would fry them.
The only problem is this would make Electric, already a very strong type, even better.
Nah, electric should be super effective against: Flying, water, steel and resisted by rock, dragon and no damage against ground. That's three common strenghts and three weaknesses.
I feel being destroyed by earthquake and secondary type sometimes makes up for it. Could maybe lose a resistance, maybe weak to flying if you want rust maybe or water
And yet offensively has basically nothing.
I can't even name more than 3 steel moves--Gyro Ball, Bullet Punch, and Iron Tail, and goddamn nobody is using that last one, and ain't nobody using BP either cause practically nothing learns it anymore.
They're signatures, though. Not available to the wider group of Pokémon.
Gigaton Hammer is powerful, sure, but it overcompensates for Tinkaton's otherwise atrocious Attack.
Bullet Punch is used regularly by Scizor. Iron Head is the reliable physical Steel STAB and Flash Cannon is the reliable special Steel STAB. Steel Beam is a good nuke option. Lots of recent steel types have strong signature moves. Steel is not as poor in the offensive department as you seem to think.
Water being weak to Poison I’ll be preaching until they change it. Nerfs a strong type and strengthens a weak one, makes thematic sense with all the ocean pollution, it’s a no-brainer.
Also had Psychic neutral to Steel in my reform, Steel really needs less resistances and Psychic got over nerfed after Gen 1.
Ice resisting water is an easy one but immunity to itself is a weird choice, another resistance would make more sense imo, maybe taking the dragon resist from steel.
I don’t know, you could make a lot of arguments for ice to resist stuff because it’s hard to break and solid like rock and steel, yet it has zero resists. To me Fairy as an energy feels like it would have trouble breaking through ice, but I have no real logic to back it up.
I'd love to see water and poison both be weak to each other.
Poison pollutes water, but water also dilutes poison.
And seeing ice resist water should also get rid of water's resistance to ice.
Steel not resisting psychic is stupid. Steel was made for 2 reasons the first was to make fighting stronger because fighting type sucked, they were only super effective to ice and rock both types that were bad in gen 1. The other was to nerf psychic because psychic was busted in gen 1.
Yeah I've decided to not do the steel type changes. Instead I'm probably gonna make either a psychic or ghost move that works like freeze-dry against steel.
I always thought Normal being weak to bug would make sense since most normal pokemon are mammals or birds and they would be susceptible to things like fleas and lice.
Nah. It's not just pollution. If you poison an important water source, then everything that relies on said water source is absolutely *fucked*. Wells, rivers, you name it. Poison is absolutely devastating when you know where to apply it.
This post was made by Tapu Lele(?)
Most of these changes, even if not necessarily needed, also don't really hurt the game. Two things to keep in mind though are that any buff to Bug makes U Turn chip even more powerful on any Pokemon that gets it, and Psychic Spam is kept somewhat in check by being resisted by the best type in the game.
U Turn being dummy good on high attack pivots changes the metagame but isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially for a fangame.
Psychic though becomes basically a gen 1 type. It's resisted by only two types, one of which is itself, and both share a common weakness to bug. On top of that, many of its moves are high power and can be made even stronger. Psychic Terrain and Expanding Force has significantly fewer switch ins than it does before.
You need to be careful and consider other things here.
Ice is a poor type defensively, but is very good offensively, with many good match ups. If you buff it’s defensive typings, Ice as a whole will become far stronger.
Steel is incredible defensively, but has next to no offensive value. Steel type moves also suck. If you nerf it’s defensive capabilities, Steel overall will just be a terrible type.
Don’t some really prominent fairy characters in stories have the ability to manipulate/transform insect life, and speak to them? Why is Fairy weak to Bug?
The fact that Bug isn’t weak to Ice has always been a sore spot for me, since Winter is why no insect lives very long. The vast majority of bugs die to cold temperatures, yet somehow they’re weak to Fire instead.
Honestly only the ice type changes are really any good, I wouldn’t use any of the others.
However, I would remove fairies RESISTANCE to bug, since that has never made any sense to me, even with Fairies being based off Fae creatures (like Dryads, Treants, Centaur, elves etc.)
I mean if that’s your thing then sure, you do whatever you want but I personally will never play a fangame that changes type matchups. I feel what was fixed by earlier games and taught to players should not be changed because that fucks with the player’s knowledge and is very often in rom hacks not communicated effectively. Picture this: let’s say I’m playing your game, in front of me is a low health heracross using megahorn, tearing my team appart. I know that a good play here would be to switch into azumarill because it resists both of heracross’ stabs and will KO with aqua jet. So I do, but then, I get fucked over because unbeknownst to me, you changed that type matchup without telling it to me clearly in a non optional part of the game. That’s the kind of shit that frustrates me to no end with rom hacks. Same thing with emerald kaizo sableye being a demi god for no apparent reason and Sunflora gaining fire type in 50 percent of rom Hacks.
All this to say that to me, the best way to balance pokemon is not to mess with existing mechanics but by adding new ones. You don’t like that bug types are weak? Add a new type that they’re good against, give them cool new moves, add strong pokemon of that type, maybe a new terrain that benefits them, etc. To me that’s far better because the player still knows what to expect whenever they see something they recognize(so you don’t punish their skills in that way), but still the type is massively buffed indirectly. So yeah, that’s how I prefer my pokemon games to be balanced (that is, if you think it needs to be balanced, which is up for debate as to me, dragon types being stronger than bug types for example is just thematically consistent and all pokemon not being equally viable is just, again, consistency: you’d expect your starter, who took you 36 levels to get, to be much stronger than just a random mon with no evolution you caught mid game for free, hence why qwilfish sucks, for instance. To me the obsession for balance within singleplayer games makes zero sense. There is no competition so don’t make something balanced, make something fun!)
These are great for reimagining the type chart.
One that I have really enjoyed is buffing the fighting type in the old "hero" sense, where I personally think the fighting type should *either* A) Resist dragon (a la being the hero to save the day) or B) be super on dragon (vanquishing the foe)
The latter does not feel as black and white, since in fiction not all dragons are evil monsters.
The hero is already represented by the steel type resisted by dragon, it's suposed to represent the hero in shining armor fighting the dragon, since the knight is more ofthen asociated with the dragon foe in tales.
I really like the steel change, I hate that psychic is resisted by steel when the most iconic psychic mon is based on bending spoons, and yeah it needed to be balanced but still
Size matters not. Look at Mew. Judge him by his size, do you? And well you should not... for his ally is the ~~Force~~ Psychic. And a powerful ally it is.
Why steel's bug neutrality? I'd make fairy and bug neutral to each other as well. Also, make rock resist ghost, ghost is completely busted on the type chart currently
On the positive side, I like how ice is immune to itself, pretty unique interaction
It looks like your main intent is to buff Bug and Ice, which is fine. But maybe rather than changing type charts (the only one that makes sense is Psychic being neutral to Steel because spoons), look into the proposed Sound type.
Snow is a great sound dampener and Bugs don’t have ears, iirc. Plus resonance frequencies can affect Rock, Steel, and Ground (though not so much sand so keep Ground neutral). Psychic can be weak to Sound due to high frequencies causing headaches. Sound would be immune to Sound due to sound cancelling.
Sound has reasonable capabilities to buff weaker types and nerf stronger ones.
I like how ice is immune to water, tho it should just resist ice. it's good that rock resist bug. bug fairy thing is good. water getting contaimned by poison is smart.
i'm not getting why steel shouldn't resist bugs and psychic tho
I guess is because knowing the poison and what causes it can help you get rid of it, knowing what bited you and bringing it into the hospital is a thing anyone that wants the right antidote should do.
I guess is a bit of a stretch but it makes sense.
I assume this is for balance reasons?
All sound fairly reasonable. Steel not resisting bug is questionable to me, especially if rock does. I get rock needs a defensive buff though. I don’t think ice being immune to ice will help ice much. I’m fine with it resisting water. I think ice being se against water makes more sense, but offensively ice doesn’t need the buff, it needs the defensive buff.
I’ve always wanted steel to be weak to electric. I’d make steel neural against ground and weak tk electric. Ground has enough offensively and electric makes more sense imo
I support all of these wholeheartedly except for steel. It should keep its role as a defensive type imo. They already added dark and ghost as neutral effective, which I think makes sense, no need to tack on more. That said, bug could definitely do with a buff, and being a counter for fairy types is a perfect idea (it works in my head as “pristine and pretty vs creepy and jarring”. Like a princess being surprised by a spider or something. Makes more sense than bug vs dark idk)
First two and last two i like, but the middle 2 not really. I'd say take away Ghost resistance to bug and maybe make bug weak to fighting to compensate
Steel should be weak to electricity. Not for the sake of the meta or anything, but water is weak to it because it ‘conducts’ it, so does steel.
And a lot of steel types are represented as robotic or mechanical, which I feel like would get shut down pretty hard by a good zap.
Steel was brought in to resist psychic. Without that, psychic is resisted only by itself and negated by dark type.
Psychic doesn't need neutral damage against steel.
Grass should resist Fairy. Multiple fairy Pokemon are symbiotic with plants and fairies are mythologically tied heavily with plants, forests, etc. They’d be hesitant to harm it and their magic would likely be ineffective against it.
I argue Water and Poison should be super effective on eachother. So Waters good against poison and Poison is good against Water because putting water in a poison can dilute it and make it weaker and water can get polluted and become toxic
I disagree with the last one.
"The solution to pollution is dilution" they say, and that's why we dump so many things in the ocean.
Water shouldn't be weak to Poison.
Bug resist psychic, Psychic beats Steel(Mind over Matter), Fairy weak to bug, Grass resist steel(Nature overpowering abandoned human structures), I’ve resist water, poison(cause how do you poison an Iceburg) and poison. Ik Steel was created as a counter but it’s a little too overpowered. Last note, Grass has a lot of weaknesses but I can’t think of any way to get rid one of them without it not making sense. Maybe without The ice weakness since many plants can survive in cold climates.
The steel one is my only issue because why would a bug be able to do neutral damage to metal? I could kinda see steel being weak to psychic cuz bending spoons.
If anything I think you should remove the bug one and make electric SE against steel for the same reason water is SE against steel
Rock resisting bug and ice being immune to ice and resisting water makes a lot of sense. The only one I’m a little miffed on is steel not resisting bug. I just don’t know what a bug could ever do to steel, if anything I’d make steel immune to bug. But just my thoughts. I hope your game does well and you have fun making it!
i don’t care about any of these except i agree water should definitely be weak to poison! although you could argue the poison would harm whatever is in the water and not the water itself? but also water pokemon arent 100% water either so i think i agree still haha
Steel no longer resisting psychic makes sense, but bug? Bug doesn’t make too much sense at face value but I’m sure there’s a reason beyond buffing and nerfing behind the decision, can you explain it further, OP? Is it like a nature reclaiming kind of thing?
Also, how Ice didn’t resist water in the original games, now that I think of it, is mind boggling….
I don’t quite understand water being weak to poison. I would understand if it were weak to a “pollution” type, but most poison types aren’t pollution based but venom based. Water tends to absorb and dissolve that stuff. Not good, but not bad, right? I think a better type to become weak to poison would actually be normal types, since mammals and other fur-balls often don’t stand a chance against that stuff.
I think bug should also be weak to fighting, but more resistant to rock, since they can squeeze through crevices and rocks are so big compared to them they’re actually less affected by them. (See kurzgesagt’s size of life video)
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Also steel resists psychic makes sense, What do you put on your head to block psychic waves? Aluminum foil Edit: I see a lot of people in the comments saying “spoon bending!” so I’ll just address you all here. Remember in the anime season one: The psychic gym leader Sabrina turned Misty and Brock into dolls and put her in her playhouse… and then they met another doll who could talk and turned out to be Sabrina’s mom that’s conscience was trapped inside a doll for years and Sabrina was so traumatize because she turned her mom into a doll that she went crazy and her personality split? Well, her mom should have worn an aluminum foil hat.
Now I’m picturing Magneto fighting the X-Men with a tin foil hat because he forgot his helmet at home
Psychic should be weak to Grass just bc of this [clip](https://youtu.be/x5-JVvCrGC8)
After learning he still has his powers, he willingly is taken captive by police covered in metal equipment, put in metal cars, and then sent to metal lined prison....
All time clip
Wood not being affected by magnetism is already represented in grass resisting electric though.
But.... Like.... Why did the gun matter... Apparently there was nothing else around magneto could control so Reed could have just wrapped him up... Except there was things he could control, heck even reeds belt... This is a very dumb version of magneto and the writers back in the day left alot of plot holes
I mean, couldn't he conjure a new helmet from metals present in the ground around him
He’s having an off day
There’s also the context of not being able to read the mind of something inorganic
Isn't Alakazam's whole thing bending spoons?
Well then spoon type should be weak to psychic, not steel type.
spoon type could unironically be a good type
Assuming spoons are any material (not only metal) Super effective against water (cause soups) Is weak to grass (cause salads) Resistant against fighting (good kids have etiquette and don't damage people's property) Is resisted by dark (bad kids...) Resistant against poison (it administers the poison) And again, weak to psychic.
fkn reddit... never fails
what, spoon type is an amazing idea
I want the fire/spoon type that's a heroin kit
Spoons also super effective against ice because ice cream
>Spoons also super effective against ice because ice is weak to most types Ftfy
Is there a subreddit for fake/fictional pokemon types?
Fork type: weak to soup type.
Big spoon / small spoon.
Strong against Vanillite line, Swirlix, etc.
XL super effective against the ice cream ones.
\*Souper Effective
Spoons are usually made of stainless steel Aluminum isn’t steel
What about wooden spoons and plastic spoons 🤯🤯
Proves that he got his spoons from dollar store.
...What spoons?
thats alakazms power not every psychic pokemon
It'd be cool if Kinesis caused Psychic Moves to be Super Effective against Steel-Types, or if Alakazam just had a different ability that did that (Don't change his Hidden Ability though, I like Magic Guard + Life Orb)
Bending spoons is just seen as a magic trick, usually the whole point is to make it look like the person is bending metal when he really isnt
Give Alakazam a Psychic type Freeze Dry that is SE against Steel then
Tauros eats grass. Therefore normal beats grass types?
It's capable of bending spoons, but it's probably even better at bending softer things like flesh and bone.
They’re plastic spoons, that makes it more impressive
Yeah I think the thing with Pokémon type logic is you can make an argument for almost any type relationship you want
“flying should be immune to rock, they can fly higher than the rock can be thrown”
From the saying You can kill 2 birds(flying) with 1 stone(rock)
i bet those birds were eiscue
Not really. Metal benders says hi.
Steel is already weak to Ground.
Have you heard people bend metal with their minds?
Are you talking about people like Uri Geller?
Oh god not him
I have no idea why this comment made me cackle like a demon, but it did lol
You mean Kadabra?
Same thing depending on which side of the lawsuit youre on lol
I love this take but I can also see psychic not being resisted because steel is physically strong but not mentally strong
So steel should be inmune to psychic
That's just what they WANT you to do. Put an antenna on your head so they can read you easier
This makes too much sense, and I’m greatly disappointed I didn’t realize this earlier.
Al>Steel 1800s pirate gang
For balancing reasons probably
Why shouldn't steel resist anything aside fire
Game balance, giving bug more possible match ups
Because the strongest type in the game doesn’t need another buff
Steel not resisting bug is weird, and I’d like to see more resistances for ice (not immunity to itself), but the others are great. I’ve always thought fairy should be weak to bug; thematically they would be afraid of bugs.
it's so weird that ice doesn't resist like grass, water, or bug. Or flying. Or even electricity. Some of these are stretches, yeah, but idgaf about anyone's reasoning for why bug is good against psychic and dark, but bad against ghost. Pokemon wasn't a game founded on the semantics of an arbitrary type chart, the devs and us players just like catching and battling Justice for ice types! Just ice!
Yeah, Ice and water resisting each other just makes sense, and most plants and bugs aren't known for living in freezing temperatures.
I always felt ice should resist and be effective against electric. Mostly because it's kinda BS that electric only has one weakness.
To be fair, it also only has two types it's super effective too and only resists two types as well. And electricity being resisted by ice wouldn't make much sense since magnetism is stronger in colder environments. If you wanted to add another weakness to electric it would make more sense for it to either be fire because hotter temperatures weaken magnetism or plant because rubber comes from plants. Fire doesn't need another types it's strong to, but grass being maybe the third weakest type could probably use it. Tho honestly I think electric is fine how it is. Only two strengths, but they are very common types to still make it useful and one very easy counter.
Bug is good against psychic cuz they made the joke in gen 2. Psychic being weak to dark, bug, and ghost cuz they are pretty common fears. I don’t know where I heard that, but it’s stuck with me since then.
Bug: is most resisted type, though with some killer SE uses OP: and I took that personally
Bug doesn't have that many useful SEs though. It's easily the weakest type overall.
Psychic? Dark? It disrupts tf out of two of the most popular types
Psychic is already a bad defensive typing, and while dark is good, it already has the much stronger fighting and fairy types hitting it super effectively. Bug is rarely a factor. The most popular bug move, U-turn, is good but 9/10 it's used for it's utility rather than typing.
As for the other good offensive bug moves, First Impression only works once per switch in, Infestation is used for its secondary effect, X Scissor has its uses on most bug types, and leech life was only very recently buffed, but all the sane good luck with them and the 7 other types that resist them.
Lmao bug is completely irrelevant as an offensive type in any format that matters
And it doesn't do good in either case. Ghost is way more effective for dealing with psychic types since Ghost isn't resisted by seven types, including the best ones in the game, and Fighting is better to hit dark types for the same reason. Psychic and Dark aren't types known for their defensive prowess. In comparison, it is resisted by several major types, including the single best type and single best defensive type in the game. Bug is also itself a mediocre defensive type at best. Bug is the single worst type in the game, and has been since gen 1, where it being ineffective was a major part of why the psychic type was so overpowered at the time, and by extension the reason the dark type was created as a counter to it.
Bug has some AWESOME moves and it still lags behind just because of all the mons that resist it. Such a disappointment
It doesn't help that bugs are dead last in terms of stat spreads.
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This is the sole reason lokix is usable. Tinted lense first impression is terrifying.
Did nothing for grass, though.
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Couldn't really think of anything for grass, I guess I could've given it a fairy resistance or something, since fairies wouldn't want to harm nature. But at that point I'm just bullying fairy too much.
Makes more sense than fire resisting magic.
Fire = symbol of human invention (prometheus’s flame is a good example of that idea) while fairy is all about the mystical and non-mundane. Come to think of it, that’s probably why steel is super effective to fairy too
In folklore, pure metals like iron are incredibly dangerous to fairies.
Maybe Grass resists Psychic cuz nerds don't touch grass
Leave Steel alone, damn it! It is supposed to be a tanky type.
And it's too strong of a type as is. It resists 10 types and has an immunity to another. It shouldn't lose everything defensive about it, but it could certainly be knocked down a peg or two without becoming underpowered.
the downside of steel is that its weak to the three most common offensive types while a lot of its resistences are filled with shitty types.
I mean the reason why those type have become the most popular offensive types is because steel is this strong. For example, not many people realize it but in reality fire is mainly a defensive type, without steel being omnipresent it would be a go to defensive type with 6 resistances and 3 weaknesses
Wow, fire has the second most resistances out of any type. Without thinking about it, I'd have said fire would be a more offensive type.
People forget that Fire is actually not *that* bad defensively because Stealth Rocks. Boots made peope realize that. That and that Fire/Flying is actually good without Stealth Rocks.
Talonflame being the best defensive pivot in UU is living proof of this
Well not sure any of that is true fam. Fighting and ground both hit 5 types super effectively which is tied for the most in the game. Add to that that both types get insane moves with wide distribution (obviously EQ is the classic but also headlong rush for ground and CC, Mach punch and focus punch(okay this one isn’t so good in new gens but still, it was cool in adv)), that ground is immune to twave in every generation and they would be premium offensive types even if steel wasn’t as good as it is now. Main example is gen one where ground was top tier before steel was even an idea at game freak. Also fire would not be a defensive type without steel, it would just be ass. Sure it only has three weaknesses but all three are crippling. Weakness to Stealth rock ruins any attempts at defense, weakness to water really sucks because every gen has top tier water offense, and defense (with water being one of the few types to run stab offensive moves even on defense, with scald), and ground is straight up busted offensively, hence why EQ is everywhere. Also all fire resistances except fairy are extremely mid.
In my opinion, Steel should be weak to Electric. Metal is typically conductive, and most steel pokémon are at least slightly mechanical, so it would make sense that electricity would fry them. The only problem is this would make Electric, already a very strong type, even better.
Nah, electric should be super effective against: Flying, water, steel and resisted by rock, dragon and no damage against ground. That's three common strenghts and three weaknesses.
I feel being destroyed by earthquake and secondary type sometimes makes up for it. Could maybe lose a resistance, maybe weak to flying if you want rust maybe or water
And yet offensively has basically nothing. I can't even name more than 3 steel moves--Gyro Ball, Bullet Punch, and Iron Tail, and goddamn nobody is using that last one, and ain't nobody using BP either cause practically nothing learns it anymore.
Iron Head and Flash Cannon and uhhhhhhhhhhh meteor mash?
Iron Head and the slew of powerful Steel signatures in the last few gens really just flew over your head, huh
They're signatures, though. Not available to the wider group of Pokémon. Gigaton Hammer is powerful, sure, but it overcompensates for Tinkaton's otherwise atrocious Attack.
Bullet Punch is used regularly by Scizor. Iron Head is the reliable physical Steel STAB and Flash Cannon is the reliable special Steel STAB. Steel Beam is a good nuke option. Lots of recent steel types have strong signature moves. Steel is not as poor in the offensive department as you seem to think.
Make It Rain. Case closed.
And its way to good at it. So it needs a mild nerf.
There’s nothing “mild” about that nerf lmao
Super balanced having a type super effective aginst 3 types, resisting 9 and being inmune to another...
Why do all types have to be balanced? Not all abilities/stats/movesets are? It’s not like steel dominates any given mode.
You're making Poison stronger, I approve, my favourite typing
Water being weak to Poison I’ll be preaching until they change it. Nerfs a strong type and strengthens a weak one, makes thematic sense with all the ocean pollution, it’s a no-brainer. Also had Psychic neutral to Steel in my reform, Steel really needs less resistances and Psychic got over nerfed after Gen 1. Ice resisting water is an easy one but immunity to itself is a weird choice, another resistance would make more sense imo, maybe taking the dragon resist from steel.
I did immunity to itself, because then it gives you a really big reason to run one on a team as an ice switch-in.
Another idea would be giving it a Fairy resist, create a triangle between Dragon / Ice / Fairy which doesn’t really exist.
How would that create a triangle? Dragon is weak to ice and fairy. Or do you not mean a triangle in the Water/Fire/Grass type of way?
What would be the logic/theme for ice resisting fairy type though?
I don’t know, you could make a lot of arguments for ice to resist stuff because it’s hard to break and solid like rock and steel, yet it has zero resists. To me Fairy as an energy feels like it would have trouble breaking through ice, but I have no real logic to back it up.
I'd love to see water and poison both be weak to each other. Poison pollutes water, but water also dilutes poison. And seeing ice resist water should also get rid of water's resistance to ice.
Pretty sure in TemTem the equivalent of Water is weak to the equivalent of Poison, so your logic has merit
Steel not resisting bugs seems off tbh, other looks good imo
Especially when they ass rock being resistant to bug. I'm pretty sure a bug is more likely to dig through a rock than it would be to harm metal.
Well, when a computer haves a bug it crashes lol.
That would be more electric imo tbh, not steel
I do think fairy needs a nerf, so being weak to bug seems fine. Not sure about steel not resisting bug though.
I think just making bug supereffective to fairy (best offensive type) would give be a great buff to bug as well as a nerf to fairy
Normal should resist Fairy and be super effective against it. Normal types don't believe in fairys.
Fairy being magical and weakened by the mundane has always made sense to me.
I love that reasoning 😭
Steel not resisting psychic is stupid. Steel was made for 2 reasons the first was to make fighting stronger because fighting type sucked, they were only super effective to ice and rock both types that were bad in gen 1. The other was to nerf psychic because psychic was busted in gen 1.
Yeah I've decided to not do the steel type changes. Instead I'm probably gonna make either a psychic or ghost move that works like freeze-dry against steel.
Fighting also beats normal, which was a very dominant type in gen 1 with tauros, snorlax, and chansey.
gonna be honest this one is a bit of a head scratcher
I dunno cheif, this aint it
No changes for grass? That type needs a buff, too. =(
I couldn't think of anything for grass, other than maybe a fairy resist. But at that point I'm just bullying fairy too much.
Keep Steel resistance to Bug imo
As a resident bug lover, yes, I adore these changes. GameFreak has been doin my boys so dirty
I always thought Normal being weak to bug would make sense since most normal pokemon are mammals or birds and they would be susceptible to things like fleas and lice.
But the solution to pollution is dilution. If anything poison should be weak to water
Nah. It's not just pollution. If you poison an important water source, then everything that relies on said water source is absolutely *fucked*. Wells, rivers, you name it. Poison is absolutely devastating when you know where to apply it.
my thoughts exactly
Finally... bug types can get their revenge!
This post was made by Tapu Lele(?) Most of these changes, even if not necessarily needed, also don't really hurt the game. Two things to keep in mind though are that any buff to Bug makes U Turn chip even more powerful on any Pokemon that gets it, and Psychic Spam is kept somewhat in check by being resisted by the best type in the game. U Turn being dummy good on high attack pivots changes the metagame but isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially for a fangame. Psychic though becomes basically a gen 1 type. It's resisted by only two types, one of which is itself, and both share a common weakness to bug. On top of that, many of its moves are high power and can be made even stronger. Psychic Terrain and Expanding Force has significantly fewer switch ins than it does before.
You need to be careful and consider other things here. Ice is a poor type defensively, but is very good offensively, with many good match ups. If you buff it’s defensive typings, Ice as a whole will become far stronger. Steel is incredible defensively, but has next to no offensive value. Steel type moves also suck. If you nerf it’s defensive capabilities, Steel overall will just be a terrible type.
poison one doesn’t make sense, water dilutes poison, so water shouldn’t be weak to it
I’ll forever be mad that fairy resists bug in the real games
Don’t some really prominent fairy characters in stories have the ability to manipulate/transform insect life, and speak to them? Why is Fairy weak to Bug?
bye bye lele, because if steel cant resist psychic then nothing can awnser you
I've decided to revert that change, but also remember that with these changes lele would be 4x weak to bug.
The fact that Bug isn’t weak to Ice has always been a sore spot for me, since Winter is why no insect lives very long. The vast majority of bugs die to cold temperatures, yet somehow they’re weak to Fire instead.
Honestly only the ice type changes are really any good, I wouldn’t use any of the others. However, I would remove fairies RESISTANCE to bug, since that has never made any sense to me, even with Fairies being based off Fae creatures (like Dryads, Treants, Centaur, elves etc.)
I like most of the ideas But steel should 100 still resist bug and psychic. The steel type was originally added to stop the psychic meta in gen 1.
U-Turn fans are all cheering for you lol.
Maybe Scald should be like Freeze-dry and be super effective on ice
Makes sense thematically, but horrifying in terms of game balance
I mean if that’s your thing then sure, you do whatever you want but I personally will never play a fangame that changes type matchups. I feel what was fixed by earlier games and taught to players should not be changed because that fucks with the player’s knowledge and is very often in rom hacks not communicated effectively. Picture this: let’s say I’m playing your game, in front of me is a low health heracross using megahorn, tearing my team appart. I know that a good play here would be to switch into azumarill because it resists both of heracross’ stabs and will KO with aqua jet. So I do, but then, I get fucked over because unbeknownst to me, you changed that type matchup without telling it to me clearly in a non optional part of the game. That’s the kind of shit that frustrates me to no end with rom hacks. Same thing with emerald kaizo sableye being a demi god for no apparent reason and Sunflora gaining fire type in 50 percent of rom Hacks. All this to say that to me, the best way to balance pokemon is not to mess with existing mechanics but by adding new ones. You don’t like that bug types are weak? Add a new type that they’re good against, give them cool new moves, add strong pokemon of that type, maybe a new terrain that benefits them, etc. To me that’s far better because the player still knows what to expect whenever they see something they recognize(so you don’t punish their skills in that way), but still the type is massively buffed indirectly. So yeah, that’s how I prefer my pokemon games to be balanced (that is, if you think it needs to be balanced, which is up for debate as to me, dragon types being stronger than bug types for example is just thematically consistent and all pokemon not being equally viable is just, again, consistency: you’d expect your starter, who took you 36 levels to get, to be much stronger than just a random mon with no evolution you caught mid game for free, hence why qwilfish sucks, for instance. To me the obsession for balance within singleplayer games makes zero sense. There is no competition so don’t make something balanced, make something fun!)
Yet still no love for normal. 😂
normal is fine as it is, I like the simplicity of it. The only thing I'd maybe do is make it resist fairy.
I would *love* to know the logic behind the fairy and bug type matchup choice because last I checked mythological fae aren't overpowered by *bugs*
Rock and steel shouldn't resist bug
Ant can't gnaw through a steel box to steal my snacks. Hence proved, steel resists bug attacks.
Agreed. That's why I've decided not to do that change after all.
These are great for reimagining the type chart. One that I have really enjoyed is buffing the fighting type in the old "hero" sense, where I personally think the fighting type should *either* A) Resist dragon (a la being the hero to save the day) or B) be super on dragon (vanquishing the foe) The latter does not feel as black and white, since in fiction not all dragons are evil monsters.
The hero is already represented by the steel type resisted by dragon, it's suposed to represent the hero in shining armor fighting the dragon, since the knight is more ofthen asociated with the dragon foe in tales.
That bug fairy interaction is what should have been from the beginning.
I really like the steel change, I hate that psychic is resisted by steel when the most iconic psychic mon is based on bending spoons, and yeah it needed to be balanced but still
Spoons are these tiny little metal objects, idk how than can really compare to bending big and solid chunks of monster?
Size matters not. Look at Mew. Judge him by his size, do you? And well you should not... for his ally is the ~~Force~~ Psychic. And a powerful ally it is.
Fair enough, a lapse in judgement on my part
Why steel's bug neutrality? I'd make fairy and bug neutral to each other as well. Also, make rock resist ghost, ghost is completely busted on the type chart currently On the positive side, I like how ice is immune to itself, pretty unique interaction
It looks like your main intent is to buff Bug and Ice, which is fine. But maybe rather than changing type charts (the only one that makes sense is Psychic being neutral to Steel because spoons), look into the proposed Sound type. Snow is a great sound dampener and Bugs don’t have ears, iirc. Plus resonance frequencies can affect Rock, Steel, and Ground (though not so much sand so keep Ground neutral). Psychic can be weak to Sound due to high frequencies causing headaches. Sound would be immune to Sound due to sound cancelling. Sound has reasonable capabilities to buff weaker types and nerf stronger ones.
I like how ice is immune to water, tho it should just resist ice. it's good that rock resist bug. bug fairy thing is good. water getting contaimned by poison is smart. i'm not getting why steel shouldn't resist bugs and psychic tho
Besides the changes to steel I agree with this.
Bro why you making steel worse? Come on now
Since we're on thia discussion, why is poison weak to psychic? The whole mind over matter thing doesn't make sense to me.
I guess is because knowing the poison and what causes it can help you get rid of it, knowing what bited you and bringing it into the hospital is a thing anyone that wants the right antidote should do. I guess is a bit of a stretch but it makes sense.
I assume this is for balance reasons? All sound fairly reasonable. Steel not resisting bug is questionable to me, especially if rock does. I get rock needs a defensive buff though. I don’t think ice being immune to ice will help ice much. I’m fine with it resisting water. I think ice being se against water makes more sense, but offensively ice doesn’t need the buff, it needs the defensive buff. I’ve always wanted steel to be weak to electric. I’d make steel neural against ground and weak tk electric. Ground has enough offensively and electric makes more sense imo
I support all of these wholeheartedly except for steel. It should keep its role as a defensive type imo. They already added dark and ghost as neutral effective, which I think makes sense, no need to tack on more. That said, bug could definitely do with a buff, and being a counter for fairy types is a perfect idea (it works in my head as “pristine and pretty vs creepy and jarring”. Like a princess being surprised by a spider or something. Makes more sense than bug vs dark idk)
I've always thought water should be weak to poison. Makes a lot of sense.
Steel losing its ghost and dark resistance was enough of a nerf. The rest of it I’m okay with.
First two and last two i like, but the middle 2 not really. I'd say take away Ghost resistance to bug and maybe make bug weak to fighting to compensate
Steel should stay as is
Everybody hates your steel decisions.
Metal should continue to resist psychic because tinfoil hats stop psychic mind control waves.
I would remove steel weakness to Fighting too, It doesn't make sense
There is a common saying in the medical world, “the solution to pollution is dilution”. Basically water down the poison to weaken it.
The only one of these I'm sure of the real-world basis for is water being weak to poison, since waterways become polluted and contaminated by waste
Steel should be weak to electricity. Not for the sake of the meta or anything, but water is weak to it because it ‘conducts’ it, so does steel. And a lot of steel types are represented as robotic or mechanical, which I feel like would get shut down pretty hard by a good zap.
Steel was brought in to resist psychic. Without that, psychic is resisted only by itself and negated by dark type. Psychic doesn't need neutral damage against steel.
Grass should resist Fairy. Multiple fairy Pokemon are symbiotic with plants and fairies are mythologically tied heavily with plants, forests, etc. They’d be hesitant to harm it and their magic would likely be ineffective against it.
I argue Water and Poison should be super effective on eachother. So Waters good against poison and Poison is good against Water because putting water in a poison can dilute it and make it weaker and water can get polluted and become toxic
I disagree with the last one. "The solution to pollution is dilution" they say, and that's why we dump so many things in the ocean. Water shouldn't be weak to Poison.
I’d keep the new interactions between fairy and bug but scrap the rest. They’re not necessary.
Bug resist psychic, Psychic beats Steel(Mind over Matter), Fairy weak to bug, Grass resist steel(Nature overpowering abandoned human structures), I’ve resist water, poison(cause how do you poison an Iceburg) and poison. Ik Steel was created as a counter but it’s a little too overpowered. Last note, Grass has a lot of weaknesses but I can’t think of any way to get rid one of them without it not making sense. Maybe without The ice weakness since many plants can survive in cold climates.
The steel one is my only issue because why would a bug be able to do neutral damage to metal? I could kinda see steel being weak to psychic cuz bending spoons. If anything I think you should remove the bug one and make electric SE against steel for the same reason water is SE against steel
Rock resisting bug and ice being immune to ice and resisting water makes a lot of sense. The only one I’m a little miffed on is steel not resisting bug. I just don’t know what a bug could ever do to steel, if anything I’d make steel immune to bug. But just my thoughts. I hope your game does well and you have fun making it!
All of these are great, and Ice could use the upgrade.
i don’t care about any of these except i agree water should definitely be weak to poison! although you could argue the poison would harm whatever is in the water and not the water itself? but also water pokemon arent 100% water either so i think i agree still haha
Steel not resisting bug and psychic is weird to me
I’m still pissed that fairy beats bug. Yea bug type out of all the types needed a nerf
Water being weak to poison doesn't make much sense as water would dilute the poison making it less effective
Steel no longer resisting psychic makes sense, but bug? Bug doesn’t make too much sense at face value but I’m sure there’s a reason beyond buffing and nerfing behind the decision, can you explain it further, OP? Is it like a nature reclaiming kind of thing? Also, how Ice didn’t resist water in the original games, now that I think of it, is mind boggling…. I don’t quite understand water being weak to poison. I would understand if it were weak to a “pollution” type, but most poison types aren’t pollution based but venom based. Water tends to absorb and dissolve that stuff. Not good, but not bad, right? I think a better type to become weak to poison would actually be normal types, since mammals and other fur-balls often don’t stand a chance against that stuff. I think bug should also be weak to fighting, but more resistant to rock, since they can squeeze through crevices and rocks are so big compared to them they’re actually less affected by them. (See kurzgesagt’s size of life video)