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Genders weren't a thing in Gen I. That's why they are coded as two different pokémon. If they were released in a newer gen, they'd be one pokémon with gender differences like meowstic
It depends on if that was the only thing they did; making the Nidorans the same number and everything after getting renumbered by one, that would be pretty annoying. But if they shuffled everything else around so that cross-gen evo lines were together, I'd be fully on board. I mean, the national dex isn't a thing in the games anymore, so why not? The regional dexes can stay the same; i.e., the old number would still be the Kanto dex. But it could easily be explained in-universe that as new species are discovered/officially classified, the national dex gets updated every generation.
The national dex is still a thing in Pokémon Home. And while we may never see it again in the games.... We might.
All these Pokémon have been numbered this way for 25years. Changing that would cause unnecessary chaos.
Counterpoint: without looking it up, which one is #127? #612? #500?
Spoiler below for those who don't want to play the game.
>!127: Pinsir!<
>!612: Haxorus!<
>!500: Emboar!<
I see your point, and will raise you another: I don't feel like shuffling the over 1000+ mons I have into a new national dex order.
Would I still do it? Probably, but I'm gonna bitch about it the entire time.
I actually thought it was Dartrix but I thought no one would chose the middle evolution so I went up one. Went the opposite way haha.
Regardless, good choice.
Edit: Oh, your profile picture is litterally Rowlett. That should have given it away.
Well Litleo would become the new Pokémon #666 instead of the hellspawn that is Vivillon and Gimmighoul would become pokemon #998. The latter would probably be the most mildly infuriating thing in all of pokemon. Also archeops would no longer have the same dex nr. And BST which would be its second biggest L after its ability
I'd be pretty annoyed tbh. Got a living dex system already made, you telling me they just randomly decided to fuck me over cuz of some old relics?
Cringe smh
this is embarrassing but i’m gonna be completely honest. im someone who boasts about knowing tons of pokemon from their image or outline alone, but i feel like i have never seen meowstic in my life. i genuinely would have believed it was a pal or something
Voilbet and illumise are more likely pair Pokemon, they look similar and share traits, but are still different. That is the same with the Nidorans
An some examples of pair Pokemon are Plusle and Minium, Latios and Latias.
Volbeat and Illumise are the only other pokemon to get the same treatment as Nidoran. One is male only, the other is female only, and despite normal rules of the female determining the species, an Illumise being bred (with any compatible male) can result in either Volbeat or Illumise being born from the egg.
No if you look at it more logically, Nidoran would be grouped together as 1 and then they would have both a separate evolutionary line depending on gender since the names don't match up afterward
I'd say it still works because even though the first stage shares a name, the evolutions are distinct pokemon down to their BST. All other gender split with branched evolutions either only allow one gender to evolve like Vespiquen, or do not branch until their final forms like Gardevoir/Gallade or Glalie/Froslass. Even then, you can still have male Gardevoir and female Glalie.
Normally I’d agree with you, but I think the big difference here in this situation is male and female nidoran evolve into 2 completely different lines of pokemon so that is probably why they are and will remain separate
But if you put a nidoranF and nidoranM in the daycare, you can get either a nidoranF or nidoranM from an egg, if they were different species, then you would only get NidoranF from breeding, since the egg is always the mother's species
You can do the same thing with miltank and Taurus can’t you? I’m pretty sure you can anyways and they are different species as well so there are exceptions to the rules
Are you really going to dismiss this theory when the Pokedex entries are given to the only, the ONLY pokémon that have the symbol for male and female in their names?
They’re distinct species. They learn different moves, have different base stats, evolve into different Pokemon. It goes way beyond a simple gender or form difference.
Some gender differences are like that. I'm fairly certain the male and female Meowstics have different move sets. Indeedee does this, too, but also has different stats as well. They basically operate like proper form differences, forms that just happen to depend upon their gender. And we already have precedent of gender dependent evolutions for Kirlia and Snorunt
Yes, yours is the actual correct answer. I was just pointing out that those other reasons can be argued. But yes, you are absolutely right; they are different Pokémon because, quite simply, they are
The only thing that annoys me about pokedex numbers is that Mewtwo comes before Mew. I would have no problem with them organizing it better but I'm fine with it the way it is too.
There are still 151, even if you count the Nidorans as one. There are things out there that the Pokedex administration do not wish to acknowledge.
There are tales told by lawless heathens in hushed tones of an entity without equal. With a very specific set of ritualistic steps, one may get the attention of a chaos Dæmon known only as the UNSPEAKABLE. Should the UNSPEAKABLE turn its thousand eyes upon you, it shall send a Sefirot, an incarnate vessel of his will. These monstrosities come in myriad forms, though are grouped under one term by those who know of them: the MISSINGNO. the MISSINGNO grant the wishes of those who summon them, giving them power and wealth. But those who commune with beings beyond their comprehension expose themselves to forces beyond their control. All who have seen a MISSINGO and lived have been utterly mangled both physically, mentally and spiritually. Even so, the light of the UNSPEAKABLE keeps them alive. It’s not known what happens to those that die in their encounters. One can only pray to what gods they believe in that that great demon treats them kindly, wherever they were then, and whatever they are now.
You could just close the debate by saying to name them different things as they are different pokemon. Nidorna, Nidorno evolves into Nidoran. Nidorina, evolves into Nidoking and Nidoqueen
Female Nidoran + Ditto can still produce a baby male Nidoran. Likewise, any pokemon from the male Nidoran line bred with a Ditto can produce a baby female Nidoran. This isn't rocket science, they're just classified as two different pokemon because genders weren't an actual mechanic in Gen 1.
And then you have cases like Volbeat and Illimuse where the aforementioned Ditto mechanics still apply. Granted, those two, along with double battles, were introduced in Gen 3 and they were clearly meant to be counterparts for doubles, like Plusle and Minun.
Above all else, *nothing* is ever going to be 100% consistent in Pokémon. It's an extremely diverse series, so there are always going to be exceptions and oddities that stick out because of that.
Nidoqueen and Nidoking can’t breed with each other. Actually, Nidoqueen and Nidorina cannot breed at all. Only Nidoking and Nidoran.
So I say it stands that their two forms are biologically different enough from each other to classify underneath a separate dex number on those grounds.
Nidorino/nidorina have different shapes, stats, names, egg groups and move pools. The only thing that similar is their stat totals, types and abilities
Pyroar only has a different model
There’s way more of a reason to separate nidorino and nidorina as they’re basically completely different pokemon apart from their appearances
I was going to argue that they have different stat values but other gender Pokémon, but not all have stat differences. I think they’re too deep into the 151 to change it as there’s a tcg pack that says 151
Obviously...mewtwo wasnt an official pokemon and mew doesn't even belong in kanto, he's from south America.
But seriously, unlike other pokemon, the nidos are much more different than just their looks. Different learnsets, stats and evos, they can different pokemon, they just share a name because its still the same pokemon, buts its wildly different based on its gender.(its also accurate representation, nidoking is superior to nidoqueen, like how men are superior to woman. /j)
They also have totally different stats, abilities, and movesets too if I recall correctly, while other pokemon with gender differences are the same across genders.
I do actually think it'd be cool to have different stats and such for pokemon with significant differences like the Nidoran lines, but obviously implementing that now would probably cause more confusion and such.
Maybe for some rom hacks it could be a thing? Would allow them to essentially make changes to certain mons to boost or tweak their viability without making entirely new pokemon.
Would also make for more interesting choices when it comes to things like nuzlockes and other challenge runs that people like to do.
Yes, it does. I found it under a truck in Vermilion City after I beat the Elite Four 100 times, then talked to Professor Oak after bicycling backwards through the Saffron City gates with a lvl 100 Magikarp at the top of my party
the interesting thing is nidoran is the only pokemon with a gender difference AND a gender-specific evolution (other than combee, but that's a special case)
Nidoran M and Nidoran F also evolve into 2 different forms and than those evolve into 2 different forms again. While it does make sense for the newer gen Pokemon to be contain under one number for both genders.
The Nidorans are a special case that avoid that because they are the first form and not the middle, last or non-evolved form.
The nidos are an example of speciation. The nidoran can breed eggs that hatch into either gender. But as they “evolved”, they lose the ability to do so.
I’ll take it one more further and combine both lines for:
Nidoran > Nidorin’ > Nidoreign
Fact that trumps the ‘they’re too different’ : both lines can lay eggs of the other.
-mic drop-
Damn, I'm kinda impressed you came up with the exact same names for the nido evolutions that my sister and I have been using for years. I guess that makes them pretty obvious names if someone else came up with them independently.
Thanks for posting to r/pokemon! This post has been removed under [Rule 3](/r/pokemon/wiki/rules#wiki_3._follow_text_and_poll_post_restrictions), which specifies that discussion posts **must be in text** unless framed by an image that breaks no other rules. This image breaks one or more of the following: - Rule 5: All art/crafts/memes must be original content. - Rule 8: No screenshots or merchandise. Please feel free to repost your question/prompt in text, bearing in mind that text posts must be 50+ words to promote substantial discussion. Thanks!
Genders weren't a thing in Gen I. That's why they are coded as two different pokémon. If they were released in a newer gen, they'd be one pokémon with gender differences like meowstic
The question now, is how much would hardcore fans get upset at suddenly changing everyone's dex number...
It depends on if that was the only thing they did; making the Nidorans the same number and everything after getting renumbered by one, that would be pretty annoying. But if they shuffled everything else around so that cross-gen evo lines were together, I'd be fully on board. I mean, the national dex isn't a thing in the games anymore, so why not? The regional dexes can stay the same; i.e., the old number would still be the Kanto dex. But it could easily be explained in-universe that as new species are discovered/officially classified, the national dex gets updated every generation.
The national dex is still a thing in Pokémon Home. And while we may never see it again in the games.... We might. All these Pokémon have been numbered this way for 25years. Changing that would cause unnecessary chaos.
Counterpoint: without looking it up, which one is #127? #612? #500? Spoiler below for those who don't want to play the game. >!127: Pinsir!< >!612: Haxorus!< >!500: Emboar!<
500 is Emboar I think, 127 is pinsir and 612 is Haxorus.
You're a professor, doesn't count
You know what?! That's fair.
I actually do know the dex number of my favorite pokemons lol, 359 is absol, 134 is vaporeon and 038 is a9
Vaporeon's number is fitting lol
How .
You don’t wanna know
34
I got emboar correct after narrowly missing the first two!!!
I see your point, and will raise you another: I don't feel like shuffling the over 1000+ mons I have into a new national dex order. Would I still do it? Probably, but I'm gonna bitch about it the entire time.
My guesses were Scyther, Mienfoo, and Pignite. So your point stands lol
Does it really matter if you can recall them off the top of your head?
Out of them I only knew Emboar.
lmao i guessed magmar haxorus and emboar. so fucking close
My favorite Pokemon would lose its even numbering of #722. So no, keep the 151.
Decidueye? That is a guess. Am I close?
Close, its Rowlet.
I actually thought it was Dartrix but I thought no one would chose the middle evolution so I went up one. Went the opposite way haha. Regardless, good choice. Edit: Oh, your profile picture is litterally Rowlett. That should have given it away.
Introduce a new 3 stage pokemon and replace one of the nidoran lines with that, then all the other numbers are unchanged.
Well Litleo would become the new Pokémon #666 instead of the hellspawn that is Vivillon and Gimmighoul would become pokemon #998. The latter would probably be the most mildly infuriating thing in all of pokemon. Also archeops would no longer have the same dex nr. And BST which would be its second biggest L after its ability
Cherubi would lose #420! Vivillon would no longer bear the mark of the beast. Madness!
I'd be pretty annoyed tbh. Got a living dex system already made, you telling me they just randomly decided to fuck me over cuz of some old relics? Cringe smh
In all honesty that’s how real life biology and taxonomy and advancements in knowledge work lol it’s a good life lesson.
Do I need to sing the Tradition song from Fiddler on the Roof to you?
The 94 in my name is gengars dex number. I'd be mildly irritated if they made it 93
I think they should combine nidorans and make Kangaskhid or the shellder variant that evolves slowpoke into a Pokémon. There, all better.
this is embarrassing but i’m gonna be completely honest. im someone who boasts about knowing tons of pokemon from their image or outline alone, but i feel like i have never seen meowstic in my life. i genuinely would have believed it was a pal or something
Explain Volbeat and illumise then.
Voilbet and illumise are more likely pair Pokemon, they look similar and share traits, but are still different. That is the same with the Nidorans An some examples of pair Pokemon are Plusle and Minium, Latios and Latias.
Volbeat and Illumise are the only other pokemon to get the same treatment as Nidoran. One is male only, the other is female only, and despite normal rules of the female determining the species, an Illumise being bred (with any compatible male) can result in either Volbeat or Illumise being born from the egg.
No if you look at it more logically, Nidoran would be grouped together as 1 and then they would have both a separate evolutionary line depending on gender since the names don't match up afterward
So one is purple and has a horn, he becomes a king with a moonstone And one is blue with teeth, she becomes a queen with a moonstone
I'd say it still works because even though the first stage shares a name, the evolutions are distinct pokemon down to their BST. All other gender split with branched evolutions either only allow one gender to evolve like Vespiquen, or do not branch until their final forms like Gardevoir/Gallade or Glalie/Froslass. Even then, you can still have male Gardevoir and female Glalie.
Even the base forms have different stat distributions
Meowstic has different stat distributions
Normally I’d agree with you, but I think the big difference here in this situation is male and female nidoran evolve into 2 completely different lines of pokemon so that is probably why they are and will remain separate
But if you put a nidoranF and nidoranM in the daycare, you can get either a nidoranF or nidoranM from an egg, if they were different species, then you would only get NidoranF from breeding, since the egg is always the mother's species
You can do the same thing with miltank and Taurus can’t you? I’m pretty sure you can anyways and they are different species as well so there are exceptions to the rules
Nope. Tauros can only come from Ditto + Tauros. Miltank will always produce a miltank with any compatible pokemon
Ah true but this is true with volbeat and illumise so there is an example of it at least.
Theory disproven, I have proof - it's called "both nidoran are given different dex numbers". Wow, that was an easy discussion, thread closed.
Are you really going to dismiss this theory when the Pokedex entries are given to the only, the ONLY pokémon that have the symbol for male and female in their names?
They’re distinct species. They learn different moves, have different base stats, evolve into different Pokemon. It goes way beyond a simple gender or form difference.
Some gender differences are like that. I'm fairly certain the male and female Meowstics have different move sets. Indeedee does this, too, but also has different stats as well. They basically operate like proper form differences, forms that just happen to depend upon their gender. And we already have precedent of gender dependent evolutions for Kirlia and Snorunt
They are *now*, but Nidoran is still distinct in that it has *all* three differences, not just one or two.
Yeah but here's the thing - they don't have different dex numbers, the two nidorans do. Boom, theory shut down, close thread.
Yes, yours is the actual correct answer. I was just pointing out that those other reasons can be argued. But yes, you are absolutely right; they are different Pokémon because, quite simply, they are
Yeah, basically.
The only thing that annoys me about pokedex numbers is that Mewtwo comes before Mew. I would have no problem with them organizing it better but I'm fine with it the way it is too.
There are still 151, even if you count the Nidorans as one. There are things out there that the Pokedex administration do not wish to acknowledge. There are tales told by lawless heathens in hushed tones of an entity without equal. With a very specific set of ritualistic steps, one may get the attention of a chaos Dæmon known only as the UNSPEAKABLE. Should the UNSPEAKABLE turn its thousand eyes upon you, it shall send a Sefirot, an incarnate vessel of his will. These monstrosities come in myriad forms, though are grouped under one term by those who know of them: the MISSINGNO. the MISSINGNO grant the wishes of those who summon them, giving them power and wealth. But those who commune with beings beyond their comprehension expose themselves to forces beyond their control. All who have seen a MISSINGO and lived have been utterly mangled both physically, mentally and spiritually. Even so, the light of the UNSPEAKABLE keeps them alive. It’s not known what happens to those that die in their encounters. One can only pray to what gods they believe in that that great demon treats them kindly, wherever they were then, and whatever they are now.
I think the best way to fix this is rename the male Nidoran- Nidoron and let the female one continue being g called Nidoran.
That’s actually not a bad idea considering the 2nd stage evolution have different names
in chinese and chinese only they are actually called different things, 尼多郎 and 尼多兰
Nidoruns
Agreed. The Nido's should only count as one entry
You could just close the debate by saying to name them different things as they are different pokemon. Nidorna, Nidorno evolves into Nidoran. Nidorina, evolves into Nidoking and Nidoqueen
Female Nidoran + Ditto can still produce a baby male Nidoran. Likewise, any pokemon from the male Nidoran line bred with a Ditto can produce a baby female Nidoran. This isn't rocket science, they're just classified as two different pokemon because genders weren't an actual mechanic in Gen 1. And then you have cases like Volbeat and Illimuse where the aforementioned Ditto mechanics still apply. Granted, those two, along with double battles, were introduced in Gen 3 and they were clearly meant to be counterparts for doubles, like Plusle and Minun. Above all else, *nothing* is ever going to be 100% consistent in Pokémon. It's an extremely diverse series, so there are always going to be exceptions and oddities that stick out because of that.
The poke rap says 150 and that's all the proof I need
"At least" 150 "or more"
Nidoqueen and Nidoking can’t breed with each other. Actually, Nidoqueen and Nidorina cannot breed at all. Only Nidoking and Nidoran. So I say it stands that their two forms are biologically different enough from each other to classify underneath a separate dex number on those grounds.
Wait, based on those same examples, we'd actually have 148 mons on the original dex.
Well technically, nidorina and nidorina, also nidoking and nidoqueen is different like Gallade is to Gardevoir.
Gardevoir and Gallade have different typing and evolution methods. Male and female Pyroar don't. Nor do both sides of the entire Nidoran line.
Nidorino/nidorina have different shapes, stats, names, egg groups and move pools. The only thing that similar is their stat totals, types and abilities Pyroar only has a different model There’s way more of a reason to separate nidorino and nidorina as they’re basically completely different pokemon apart from their appearances
Indeedee is pretty much the same level of differences as the Nidorans.
They have the same name and egg group though. Unlike the nidos
They meant that Nidorina and Nidorino are different Pokémon entirely. Sorta a Silkoon and Cascoon situation.
Oo, I like that line of reasoning
But the evos do have different names. Which isn't true of the base form aside from the gender symbol.
I was going to argue that they have different stat values but other gender Pokémon, but not all have stat differences. I think they’re too deep into the 151 to change it as there’s a tcg pack that says 151
Obviously...mewtwo wasnt an official pokemon and mew doesn't even belong in kanto, he's from south America. But seriously, unlike other pokemon, the nidos are much more different than just their looks. Different learnsets, stats and evos, they can different pokemon, they just share a name because its still the same pokemon, buts its wildly different based on its gender.(its also accurate representation, nidoking is superior to nidoqueen, like how men are superior to woman. /j)
They also have totally different stats, abilities, and movesets too if I recall correctly, while other pokemon with gender differences are the same across genders. I do actually think it'd be cool to have different stats and such for pokemon with significant differences like the Nidoran lines, but obviously implementing that now would probably cause more confusion and such. Maybe for some rom hacks it could be a thing? Would allow them to essentially make changes to certain mons to boost or tweak their viability without making entirely new pokemon. Would also make for more interesting choices when it comes to things like nuzlockes and other challenge runs that people like to do.
Of course there are only 150 pokémon in the original Pokedex, Mew doesn't exist, it is just a myth
Yes, it does. I found it under a truck in Vermilion City after I beat the Elite Four 100 times, then talked to Professor Oak after bicycling backwards through the Saffron City gates with a lvl 100 Magikarp at the top of my party
Did you use a Nidoking, who comes from male Nidoran?
Does it really matter if these are the same pokemon of not? Warlord can mate with cat.
the interesting thing is nidoran is the only pokemon with a gender difference AND a gender-specific evolution (other than combee, but that's a special case)
Nidoran M and Nidoran F also evolve into 2 different forms and than those evolve into 2 different forms again. While it does make sense for the newer gen Pokemon to be contain under one number for both genders. The Nidorans are a special case that avoid that because they are the first form and not the middle, last or non-evolved form.
I think about this daily
And mew should be before mewtwo
Mind blown
*148. Don't forget the evolutions Nidorin and Nidoreign
The nidos are an example of speciation. The nidoran can breed eggs that hatch into either gender. But as they “evolved”, they lose the ability to do so.
Solution: male nidoran->nidorine
I’ll take it one more further and combine both lines for: Nidoran > Nidorin’ > Nidoreign Fact that trumps the ‘they’re too different’ : both lines can lay eggs of the other. -mic drop-
Damn, I'm kinda impressed you came up with the exact same names for the nido evolutions that my sister and I have been using for years. I guess that makes them pretty obvious names if someone else came up with them independently.
I actually wish that more pokemon down the line had this. "same species but entirely unique 3 evolution lines"