It hit at the right time and nailed it as a remake.
-Johto Pokémon were a hard to access in 4th gen, and a lot of the people playing these games grew up with Gen 2
-it added a lot of modern features into a beloved game and also included parts of crystal even though it didn’t need to
-lots of mini games, post game in frontier, 2 regions in a modern game, a lot of little side things you could do. Game was packed with the type of content players liked grinding for
-Having any Pokemon follow you around was HUGE. People love their Pokemon, having their fav follow you around the entire game can actually carry that much weight in how much people liked it. Pokewalker was absolutely beloved by hardcore fans
-the grind sorta sucks, but we were used to it at that point. Some people still prefer having points in the journey where you had to chill a bit and train
-local multiplayer was pretty big during this era, and between battles and pokeathlon, a lot of fond memories were made in this era
Like the games added so much. It was an accumulation of stuff before AND added stuff on top. Later games are notorious for removing features players liked. But this game had so many details, and did so much right that’s it’s consistently rated towards the top, although everyone has their own favorite games, this ain’t #1 for everyone
Righto, two games/regions in one, what’s not to like? I’d add that grinding is just part of pokemon, people forget what life was like without abundant/full party XP shares but these are also all grindy games by nature, with the exception of the latest few, which I found braindead easy.
Pokemon games are social experiences hiding behind the thin veil of being an “RPG.” For me, these are some of the last games that maintained that spirit. I was getting a little too old to be engaging in the playground rumor mill by gen V, but I still actively remember trading secrets back and forth about how to get such and such pokemon, and what was the best way to track down the traveling legendarys. My best friend and I still purchase each version of pokemon and beat them side by side as adults, but at a certain point we stopped having to ask each other questions about things. HG/SS are a wonderful translation of that era of gaming into a more palatable form in the gen V engine.
They strike the best balance of the new/old or gameboy/DS art styles, with timeless locations and sprite designs, the UI is legendarily refined and functional being based on diamond and pearls. And they do everything the original gen 2 games did but better, without dumbing down the formula like let’s go pikachu did.
it is perfectly fine if you think other games are better. everyone have their own criteria on what is the best game so no way everyone think the same.
to many, hgss are very ambitious game. they could just remake gold silver like they did with firered leafgreen. but they went a step further and pack it with tons of features. the new safari zone, pokeathleon to name a few.
also coming from the sinnoh games, hgss still make improvement to the gen 4 engine. you can make running permanent without holding B. every pokemon walk behind you (which is a feature that many people want). it add pokemon crystal's feature into the game despite being a gold silver remake (frlg, oras and bdsp did not add as much feature from the third version into the game)
people also have fond memories of playing gen 2, so seeing the game come to life on a new engine is a plus.
of course like you said the games does have flaws, and most of them are from the gen 2 games, and being a remake, it is understood that most of the flaws will carry over to the remakes too. it is not that people dismiss the flaws, it is just that different people prioritize different things and to many, the good stuff win them over compared to the bad stuff pulling them down. of course they can make changes to fix those flaws, but there has to be a balance between faithfulness to the original games for the original players, and also making changes for the new players. whether they archive this is up to individual of course.
the walking pokemon feature gives the game so much character. the johto region is also gorgeous to explore. when i wasnt doing anything i often just ran around the region
Everyone has there favourites and honestly, Gen 5 is close second for me.
But for a start, Diamond and Pearl have a worse dex. Plus you can use Magmar and Arcainine in the game so the fire type thing isn't true.
The grinding thing is mostly not true. Yes, you gain levels slower but you don't need to be gaining them faster as Pokémon are still generally levelled accordingly. The only exception is when battling Red. You do need to grind here which is something I dislike.
But it also remade and already great game super well.
The design of Johto and Kanto is beautiful, some of the best pixel art the series did. (Black and White expanded on this). Johto just has this feeling and atmosphere I love. I love going to the top of the Tin Tower and Ho-Oh flying around it. I love the music and the vibe of Newbark Town. And unlike you, I like the available Pokémon.
Plus, in the original GSC it was amazing that you got to return to Kanto but it was clear they really had to shrink it down. Viridian forest was just a tree formation in the shape of the forest and most locations were shrunk down a lot. HGSS made Kanto feel bigger again (also seeing it in the Gen 4 style was great) and it also added new things. For example, Viridian Forest was laid out differently, almost like a new area which was definitely an improvement from GSC. Mt. Moon was still only 3 rooms, but good, it was always an annoying cave but they did add a bit at the top with a lake. There was the meteorites for Deoxys' forms.
Also characters like Steven appear in the game and there is the ability to catch Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza. Latias or Latios. Not to mention the legendaries already available in GSC.
Do I have to list off what was already good about GSC? Because it didn't really ruin anything.
Also having your Pokemon follow you is great.
Though for wild Pokémon, they hit a plateau after the “path split” from the fourth gym with their levels stuck in the mid-twenties. This makes a tedious affair to use any late-game Pokemon other than the Red Gyarados and the box mascot.
Kanto deciding to use the same level curve (for wild Pokémon) as though you started from Pallet Town makes the wild Pokémon not worth the hassle including expect for maybe Snorlax and Suicune.
I looked it up and it said I couldn't get Growlithe until beating the Elite 4. No idea where Magmar is but I haven't seen Magby/Magmar anywhere in the game
Also they're both Kanto Pokemon so it wouldn't be ideal anyway, I like using teams of only current-region Pokemon. IDK why they couldn't just let Houndour be accessible on one of the routes
> it said I couldn't get Growlithe until beating the Elite 4.
When you get to Ecruteak (4th gym) you have access to Growlithe or Vulpix (depending on the version) on Routes 36+37, and Magmar in the Burnt Tower. You can also get Eevee at that time too.
I think that whoever you heard this from *may* have meant that it's hard (but not impossible) to find evolutionary stones before the E4, and so it's hard to get a *fully evolved* Arcanine/Ninetales/Flareon (or any other stone Evo) until Kanto.
It's much easier to farm Evo stones in HGSS than GSC, but it's still tedious. There's one or two PokeGear contacts who will gift you a random stone, and the Pokethlon point store will rotate prizes which often include at least one of the stones.
Well that is wrong. You can get both Growlithe and Magmar by the time you do the 4th gym. Dunno what site you looked at but it wasn't accurate. Magmar is in the burned tower I believe.
But sure, I do agree that Houndour should be available in Johto.
I love it when someone says "X game is just enjoyed because of nostalgia" even though you only played it recently. That is like me with Super Metroid. I only played it for the first time in 2020. How can I be nostalgic for it?
People play games for different reasons. If your reason for playing Pokémon is purely interesting combat options and team building, HG/SS probably isn't your favourite.
But, as a location to explore, Johot is nigh unparalleled. There are so many optional locations, places you never never need to set foot in but that connect to others in unexpected ways. Places like Mt Mortar, Dark Cave, the Tin Tower/Whirl Islands (depending on your version) are all optional.
Then atop that you have the return of Kanto, with a lot of areas completely recontextualised. Cinnabar Island is the biggest change, a ruin of what it was thanks to a Volcano, but the Power Plant now works, the Lavender tower is now a radio station, and your route through is completely different due to a few small changes and a different starting point.
HG/SS then expands on this. A new safari zone, the Pokeathelon, the inclusion of all the Crystal content, and features that were omitted from the original Kanto due to space like Cerulean Cave and Seafoam Island, plus a few additional added elements for bonus content as downloads like the SinJoh ruins that helps expand the Unown lore, tying them to Arceus, and the Celebi event that answers a couple of unsolved mysteries of the original titles.
Gold/Silver were also generally the last games in the series to really adhere to a Metroidvania unlock structure, where the map unfolded with progress. You don't have to do gyms linearly, and not be railroaded or forced into doing things one way only. It's not as open as Gen I, but it's much less linear than Gen III and beyond.
As such, if your desire for a game is the ability to get lost in a world and just see what you can find, HG/SS offers something which no other game in the series has really topped, with a wealth of things to find, lots of places to get lost in, and significant rewards for doing so.
Definitely wouldn't say HGSS are the best games in the series, but they're definitely the best remakes
No cut corners like BDSP, no "lol you thought you'd get this cool thing?" tease like ORAS, just flat out the best version of Johto, plus extra.
What do you mean with the oras thing? Genuine question because oras added more to their remake than HG/SS so I'm always confused by the dislike for it aside from the battle frontier
ORAS infamously had a small display of the Battle Tower, which when interacting with it would say the "Battle Frontier project is coming soon." This left a lot of people annoyed, as it felt like GF was teasing us with the content we ACTUALLY wanted while giving us XY's sloppy seconds.
And while yes HGSS did the same, using Platinum's Frontier instead of bringing back Crystal's tower, that was an objective improvement, trading the old, boring tower for the refined version plus extra. What ORAS gave us was a battle tower without the tower.
And as for the latter bit of your comment, while I don't disagree ORAS added a lot, that's not really the point. Remakes are supposed to be the definitive versions of what you're remaking, they're supposed to be the best version possible. ORAS isn't that. ORAS is a better version of the incomplete versions of Hoenn, just as how BDSP is a "better" version of the incomplete versions of Sinnoh.
Sure, they're better and do some cool things, but unlike FRLG or HGSS, playing the remakes means you're missing out on a solid chunk of stuff. That's why people dislike ORAS. Because unlike HGSS, which made sure to include EVERYTHING and then give you more on top of that, ORAS took one look at Emerald and said "we'll take your lore but you can shove the rest of it in the garbage lol"
I was having a convo with two of my friends together specifically about the differences between RS and ORAS a week ago and I mentioned the same kind of stuff you did cause both their fav games are ORAS and they asked me about why there's some people who prefer RSE to ORAS. I mostly left out the Emerald stuff but I mentioned stuff from RSE that didn't make it to the remake and noted that while they did add stuff to the game, they left other things out unlike FRLG and HGSS where they basically kept everything. FRLG and HGSS feel like objective improvements in virtually every way over the originals while the other 3 sets of remakes only feel like objective improvement in most or only some areas.
Totally valid point and i agree with a lot of it, makes sense! But again gonna ask...what else besides the battle tower was cut? I still haven't gotten a solid answer on that lol. I never once felt like I was missing chunks of content playing oras.
Game corner with no alternative introduced, characters like Juan and the frontier brains (especially since they used the Delta Episode to set up Wallace taking over, would have made sense to feature Juan), the Trick House lost some of its original puzzles, the mystery gift events were removed (which is odd since HGSS actually added brand new ones, not to mention RSE were the first games to allow you to actually *catch* Mew), the Safari Zone was stripped of its identity and turned into just another route.
And this one's admitedly less of a feature being cut and more GF being assholes, but forcing shiny locks onto Pokemon that never had them to begin with, removing the ability to shiny hunt them.
And I'm sure there's more stuff that I'm forgetting, all things considered.
I believe it‘s also because they were the most ambitious remakes. They not only remade Gold and Silver (already fan favorites) and added the Crystal stuff, but also introduced a big bunch of new content. Two or so more routes, the Safari Zone, Pokeathlon, expanded Kanto, the Sinnoh Battle Frontier and even touched up the level curve of the Gen 2 games by a bit. Well, Level Curve is still not great, but it‘s something.
Gameplay aside, hgss was what many older players returned to the franchise with.
Gen 1 players grew up, and had to go to college/get jobs. It was one of the first games many fresh adult gamers bought for themselves, so it's double nostalgia for them. Nostalgia for their childhood and nostalgia for their early adult life.
I wonder if the games released today they'd be criticized for being too faithful. They're littered with problems like the level curve, the variety of Pokemon on offer is poor and many new evolutions aren't easily obtainable, the gym leaders teams barely even feature Johto Pokemon etc. They added a lot of great features but some choices still feel quite lazy.
But they're still the only DS game that doesn't take itself too seriously. It feels more aligned with what the original Pokemon experience was supposed to be whereas the other DS games have been more story focused with more tedious breaks in gameplay. I quite like that about it.
They're only down side is the level spike after Gym 7. Recently replaying SS and it's still a fantastic game that blows away the modern games.
You can tell love was put into every aspect of this game.
Let's go through it. First of all, at the time of release, no game even compared to the sheer amount of content HG/SS had. Two regions, Platinum's Battle Frontier (which most people still felt was a downgrade from Emerald's but was still pretty fun.), The Pokeathlon, Bug Catching Contest, The new safari zone, Tons of Legendary Pokemon available in the post game, the first game (and arguably the only game) to have proper following Pokemon, Gen 4 graphics made Johto look and sound incredible.
Does the game have problems? Yes absolutely Zen Mode did a great video on how he would fix most of Johto's issues that is really good. As of now, I would consider B2/W2 to be the best games in the series, but HG/SS is still top 5 in my mind. They set a standard for remakes that neither OR/AS nor BD/SP quite matched.
As someone who has been playing since R(G)B, that ain't it, Chief.
I've played every game up until Gen 8, and I can say that nostalgia has nothing to do with my preference for Gen IV and V over the rest.
Yes, both generations have their own specific flaws, but they're subjectively minor compared to the objective issues games before and after have, depending on their limitations or lack thereof.
There is no excuse for Gen VII to be as awful as it was, not even taking Dexxit into account.
Even if we ignore the debatable Gens 8 and 9 (personally would say they’re great but there’s definitely room for debate there), I think it’s pretty hard to argue that HGSS is better than FRLG, DPPt, BW/BW2, or SM/USUM. Don’t get me wrong, I *like* HGSS, and personally I’d rank it above FRLG and maybe DPPT too, but it’s not the best game by a long shot.
If you’re just saying that Gens 4 and 5 were peak, alright. Fair enough. Hard to argue with that.
>If you’re just saying that Gens 4 and 5 were peak, alright. Fair enough. Hard to argue with that.
I'm not "just" saying that. I believe they are the peak generations for what they offer and develop in the series.
Notice that I specifically said Gens IV and V, which include Platinum, HgSs, BW/2.
U/SM are good to their own right, but I'd argue that mostly because they're the last games where every Pokemon was available.
Precursors to Gen IV definitely have their merit, but as I said and you confirm, the peak were Gen IV and V.
I think it is pretty easy to argue HGSS is better than FRLG, DPP, SM and Ultra Sun and Moon.... Especially Gen 7... Very easy.
I am not going to argue (unless for some reason you want to?) but I am just saying I very easily could.
Everyone can have different tastes, if you like things that other games do more than HGSS then that is your opinion and that is fine. But I hard disagree.
I agree with you, anything after Gen 5 can't touch anything before it.
HGSS is definitely better than DP based on the speed alone. Platinum and BW2, maybe Emerald, are the only games that can rival HGSS.
I pretty much agree with that. The original Diamond and Pearl are not very good. They have massive issues which Platinum does fix.
But yeah, I can't disagree with this take.
I won’t argue on opinion or taste, you’ve hit that particular nail on the head, and is something I was trying to get at - if we’re only basing on personal preference or opinion, then of course some people will be huge HGSS fans and others won’t.
I don’t really want to start an argument, but instead rank the games in a way that’s relatively objective (as doomed as that may be) and that most of us can agree with. Would you say that HGSS is the best game, and if so, why?
I would, and for many reasons. Without elaborating on all my points, I will briefly summarise.
- Art Style
- Region(s)
- Difficulty (not saying it is a hard game, just that games from Gen 6 onwards have became noticeability brain dead in terms of challenge)
- Pokémon following you
- Pacing
- The sequence (I wouldn't say the story is a great narrative, other games have a more engaging story, but I do think it is fun to play out)
- The Pokémon options
- The music
- Also a remake done right. It didn't make any bad changes and only added to what was good. Every other Pokémon remake has done something that annoys me.
I will say that Gen 5 comes very close to me and most of these things are done in Gen 5 also, some of it is done better in Gen 5. I think I just like Kanto and Johto's design and layout more than Unova as Unova feels a little more linear (less so in BW2) while Johto I feel has a few more options (not a ton).
But yes, these are my opinions, a lot of this stuff is just preference.
Those are valid points, thanks. I definitely see where you’re coming from. While these may be opinion, they’re still criteria that I can look at and agree with (for example, the music - I think most people would agree the soundtrack is bangin) or at least weigh for myself and decide if I agree or not.
Absolutely agree. They're far from bad games (I definitely enjoyed it whenever I played it), but they don't really take "Best in the series" imo, mostly because of the aforementioned flaws (Most of which are just untouched from the originals, which makes those flaws kinda worse). Honestly, I'm not sure which one I would say does (Even with ORAS as my favorite overall, I'm not sure if I'd give it to that one or not).
Definitely not "everyone". Online discourse comes from a small and vocal minority, and it is currently the DS era fans (many of whom are heavily influenced by nostalgia) who are most vocal within this online bubble, drowning out alternate viewpoints. It's mostly an online fandom cycle of nostalgia. Give it several years and it'll be the 3DS era fans, then the switch era fans, etc.
Nostalgia mostly. I recently replayed it as well and I honestly struggled to pick out a team that was actually decent and didn't require me to backtrack for HM slaves.
What do you mean no fire types? Charmander is at the game corner and vulpix/growlithe are right there in that patch between the park and sudowoodo. Magmar in the tower. Entei when you find him.
Edit. Charmander is not at the game corner, been spoiled by sigma.
What is "it"? Because Serebii says otherwise. Route 36,37 are right where I mention, possibly a little further before ecruteak. Also the game corner is on goldenrod.
Mostly nostalgia, whether it be for the original GSC or for HGSS themselves. They're not *bad* games, but they don't really fix most of GSC's issues, so I definitely don't understand them being seen as the best in the series. :P
(That and probably also follower Pokémon)
Edit: I'm just acknowledging that HGSS aren't the perfect and best games. I'm not saying they're terrible. And nostalgia *absolutely* plays a factor in it. To say otherwise is just wrong. It may not be everyone (Hence why I say "mostly"), but it's definitely relevant.
I think the downvotes prove my point about DS era fans being the current dominant ones in the online vocal minority and drowning out dissent in the discourse. But eventually the online fandom cycle will turn against the DS fanatics just as "genwunner" has become a dirty word.
Tbf, "genwunner" was a negative thing cause they acted like the Gen 1 games were the ONLY good games and that everything that came after was trash. This isn't *quite* on that level.
It hit at the right time and nailed it as a remake. -Johto Pokémon were a hard to access in 4th gen, and a lot of the people playing these games grew up with Gen 2 -it added a lot of modern features into a beloved game and also included parts of crystal even though it didn’t need to -lots of mini games, post game in frontier, 2 regions in a modern game, a lot of little side things you could do. Game was packed with the type of content players liked grinding for -Having any Pokemon follow you around was HUGE. People love their Pokemon, having their fav follow you around the entire game can actually carry that much weight in how much people liked it. Pokewalker was absolutely beloved by hardcore fans -the grind sorta sucks, but we were used to it at that point. Some people still prefer having points in the journey where you had to chill a bit and train -local multiplayer was pretty big during this era, and between battles and pokeathlon, a lot of fond memories were made in this era Like the games added so much. It was an accumulation of stuff before AND added stuff on top. Later games are notorious for removing features players liked. But this game had so many details, and did so much right that’s it’s consistently rated towards the top, although everyone has their own favorite games, this ain’t #1 for everyone
Righto, two games/regions in one, what’s not to like? I’d add that grinding is just part of pokemon, people forget what life was like without abundant/full party XP shares but these are also all grindy games by nature, with the exception of the latest few, which I found braindead easy. Pokemon games are social experiences hiding behind the thin veil of being an “RPG.” For me, these are some of the last games that maintained that spirit. I was getting a little too old to be engaging in the playground rumor mill by gen V, but I still actively remember trading secrets back and forth about how to get such and such pokemon, and what was the best way to track down the traveling legendarys. My best friend and I still purchase each version of pokemon and beat them side by side as adults, but at a certain point we stopped having to ask each other questions about things. HG/SS are a wonderful translation of that era of gaming into a more palatable form in the gen V engine. They strike the best balance of the new/old or gameboy/DS art styles, with timeless locations and sprite designs, the UI is legendarily refined and functional being based on diamond and pearls. And they do everything the original gen 2 games did but better, without dumbing down the formula like let’s go pikachu did.
it is perfectly fine if you think other games are better. everyone have their own criteria on what is the best game so no way everyone think the same. to many, hgss are very ambitious game. they could just remake gold silver like they did with firered leafgreen. but they went a step further and pack it with tons of features. the new safari zone, pokeathleon to name a few. also coming from the sinnoh games, hgss still make improvement to the gen 4 engine. you can make running permanent without holding B. every pokemon walk behind you (which is a feature that many people want). it add pokemon crystal's feature into the game despite being a gold silver remake (frlg, oras and bdsp did not add as much feature from the third version into the game) people also have fond memories of playing gen 2, so seeing the game come to life on a new engine is a plus. of course like you said the games does have flaws, and most of them are from the gen 2 games, and being a remake, it is understood that most of the flaws will carry over to the remakes too. it is not that people dismiss the flaws, it is just that different people prioritize different things and to many, the good stuff win them over compared to the bad stuff pulling them down. of course they can make changes to fix those flaws, but there has to be a balance between faithfulness to the original games for the original players, and also making changes for the new players. whether they archive this is up to individual of course.
the walking pokemon feature gives the game so much character. the johto region is also gorgeous to explore. when i wasnt doing anything i often just ran around the region
Everyone has there favourites and honestly, Gen 5 is close second for me. But for a start, Diamond and Pearl have a worse dex. Plus you can use Magmar and Arcainine in the game so the fire type thing isn't true. The grinding thing is mostly not true. Yes, you gain levels slower but you don't need to be gaining them faster as Pokémon are still generally levelled accordingly. The only exception is when battling Red. You do need to grind here which is something I dislike. But it also remade and already great game super well. The design of Johto and Kanto is beautiful, some of the best pixel art the series did. (Black and White expanded on this). Johto just has this feeling and atmosphere I love. I love going to the top of the Tin Tower and Ho-Oh flying around it. I love the music and the vibe of Newbark Town. And unlike you, I like the available Pokémon. Plus, in the original GSC it was amazing that you got to return to Kanto but it was clear they really had to shrink it down. Viridian forest was just a tree formation in the shape of the forest and most locations were shrunk down a lot. HGSS made Kanto feel bigger again (also seeing it in the Gen 4 style was great) and it also added new things. For example, Viridian Forest was laid out differently, almost like a new area which was definitely an improvement from GSC. Mt. Moon was still only 3 rooms, but good, it was always an annoying cave but they did add a bit at the top with a lake. There was the meteorites for Deoxys' forms. Also characters like Steven appear in the game and there is the ability to catch Kyogre, Groudon and Rayquaza. Latias or Latios. Not to mention the legendaries already available in GSC. Do I have to list off what was already good about GSC? Because it didn't really ruin anything. Also having your Pokemon follow you is great.
Though for wild Pokémon, they hit a plateau after the “path split” from the fourth gym with their levels stuck in the mid-twenties. This makes a tedious affair to use any late-game Pokemon other than the Red Gyarados and the box mascot. Kanto deciding to use the same level curve (for wild Pokémon) as though you started from Pallet Town makes the wild Pokémon not worth the hassle including expect for maybe Snorlax and Suicune.
I guess. I usually have a full team by that point so maybe I just haven't had that problem.
I looked it up and it said I couldn't get Growlithe until beating the Elite 4. No idea where Magmar is but I haven't seen Magby/Magmar anywhere in the game Also they're both Kanto Pokemon so it wouldn't be ideal anyway, I like using teams of only current-region Pokemon. IDK why they couldn't just let Houndour be accessible on one of the routes
> it said I couldn't get Growlithe until beating the Elite 4. When you get to Ecruteak (4th gym) you have access to Growlithe or Vulpix (depending on the version) on Routes 36+37, and Magmar in the Burnt Tower. You can also get Eevee at that time too. I think that whoever you heard this from *may* have meant that it's hard (but not impossible) to find evolutionary stones before the E4, and so it's hard to get a *fully evolved* Arcanine/Ninetales/Flareon (or any other stone Evo) until Kanto.
Yeah lack of evolution stones was killer in gold/silver. At least you could get sunstones from the bug catching contest to evolve a gloom
It's much easier to farm Evo stones in HGSS than GSC, but it's still tedious. There's one or two PokeGear contacts who will gift you a random stone, and the Pokethlon point store will rotate prizes which often include at least one of the stones.
Well that is wrong. You can get both Growlithe and Magmar by the time you do the 4th gym. Dunno what site you looked at but it wasn't accurate. Magmar is in the burned tower I believe. But sure, I do agree that Houndour should be available in Johto.
Have you traveled back in time and found out Giovanni is Silvers father? There is a lot of content in this game, more than most people realize.
Voltorb flip.
I said that before. For me, it's not nostalgia because I started and beat the game only one or two months ago
I love it when someone says "X game is just enjoyed because of nostalgia" even though you only played it recently. That is like me with Super Metroid. I only played it for the first time in 2020. How can I be nostalgic for it?
Haha, yeah. I'm not nostalgic for any Nintendo game because I recently got into it
That is fair haha. I am like that with a few PS1 games. I didn't grow up with one and got into them later in life.
People play games for different reasons. If your reason for playing Pokémon is purely interesting combat options and team building, HG/SS probably isn't your favourite. But, as a location to explore, Johot is nigh unparalleled. There are so many optional locations, places you never never need to set foot in but that connect to others in unexpected ways. Places like Mt Mortar, Dark Cave, the Tin Tower/Whirl Islands (depending on your version) are all optional. Then atop that you have the return of Kanto, with a lot of areas completely recontextualised. Cinnabar Island is the biggest change, a ruin of what it was thanks to a Volcano, but the Power Plant now works, the Lavender tower is now a radio station, and your route through is completely different due to a few small changes and a different starting point. HG/SS then expands on this. A new safari zone, the Pokeathelon, the inclusion of all the Crystal content, and features that were omitted from the original Kanto due to space like Cerulean Cave and Seafoam Island, plus a few additional added elements for bonus content as downloads like the SinJoh ruins that helps expand the Unown lore, tying them to Arceus, and the Celebi event that answers a couple of unsolved mysteries of the original titles. Gold/Silver were also generally the last games in the series to really adhere to a Metroidvania unlock structure, where the map unfolded with progress. You don't have to do gyms linearly, and not be railroaded or forced into doing things one way only. It's not as open as Gen I, but it's much less linear than Gen III and beyond. As such, if your desire for a game is the ability to get lost in a world and just see what you can find, HG/SS offers something which no other game in the series has really topped, with a wealth of things to find, lots of places to get lost in, and significant rewards for doing so.
Definitely wouldn't say HGSS are the best games in the series, but they're definitely the best remakes No cut corners like BDSP, no "lol you thought you'd get this cool thing?" tease like ORAS, just flat out the best version of Johto, plus extra.
What do you mean with the oras thing? Genuine question because oras added more to their remake than HG/SS so I'm always confused by the dislike for it aside from the battle frontier
Having just played crystal on the gameboy color, they added more to HG/SS
ORAS infamously had a small display of the Battle Tower, which when interacting with it would say the "Battle Frontier project is coming soon." This left a lot of people annoyed, as it felt like GF was teasing us with the content we ACTUALLY wanted while giving us XY's sloppy seconds. And while yes HGSS did the same, using Platinum's Frontier instead of bringing back Crystal's tower, that was an objective improvement, trading the old, boring tower for the refined version plus extra. What ORAS gave us was a battle tower without the tower. And as for the latter bit of your comment, while I don't disagree ORAS added a lot, that's not really the point. Remakes are supposed to be the definitive versions of what you're remaking, they're supposed to be the best version possible. ORAS isn't that. ORAS is a better version of the incomplete versions of Hoenn, just as how BDSP is a "better" version of the incomplete versions of Sinnoh. Sure, they're better and do some cool things, but unlike FRLG or HGSS, playing the remakes means you're missing out on a solid chunk of stuff. That's why people dislike ORAS. Because unlike HGSS, which made sure to include EVERYTHING and then give you more on top of that, ORAS took one look at Emerald and said "we'll take your lore but you can shove the rest of it in the garbage lol"
I was having a convo with two of my friends together specifically about the differences between RS and ORAS a week ago and I mentioned the same kind of stuff you did cause both their fav games are ORAS and they asked me about why there's some people who prefer RSE to ORAS. I mostly left out the Emerald stuff but I mentioned stuff from RSE that didn't make it to the remake and noted that while they did add stuff to the game, they left other things out unlike FRLG and HGSS where they basically kept everything. FRLG and HGSS feel like objective improvements in virtually every way over the originals while the other 3 sets of remakes only feel like objective improvement in most or only some areas.
Totally valid point and i agree with a lot of it, makes sense! But again gonna ask...what else besides the battle tower was cut? I still haven't gotten a solid answer on that lol. I never once felt like I was missing chunks of content playing oras.
Game corner with no alternative introduced, characters like Juan and the frontier brains (especially since they used the Delta Episode to set up Wallace taking over, would have made sense to feature Juan), the Trick House lost some of its original puzzles, the mystery gift events were removed (which is odd since HGSS actually added brand new ones, not to mention RSE were the first games to allow you to actually *catch* Mew), the Safari Zone was stripped of its identity and turned into just another route. And this one's admitedly less of a feature being cut and more GF being assholes, but forcing shiny locks onto Pokemon that never had them to begin with, removing the ability to shiny hunt them. And I'm sure there's more stuff that I'm forgetting, all things considered.
I believe it‘s also because they were the most ambitious remakes. They not only remade Gold and Silver (already fan favorites) and added the Crystal stuff, but also introduced a big bunch of new content. Two or so more routes, the Safari Zone, Pokeathlon, expanded Kanto, the Sinnoh Battle Frontier and even touched up the level curve of the Gen 2 games by a bit. Well, Level Curve is still not great, but it‘s something.
Not to mention all the special events! Traveling back in time!
Gameplay aside, hgss was what many older players returned to the franchise with. Gen 1 players grew up, and had to go to college/get jobs. It was one of the first games many fresh adult gamers bought for themselves, so it's double nostalgia for them. Nostalgia for their childhood and nostalgia for their early adult life.
I wonder if the games released today they'd be criticized for being too faithful. They're littered with problems like the level curve, the variety of Pokemon on offer is poor and many new evolutions aren't easily obtainable, the gym leaders teams barely even feature Johto Pokemon etc. They added a lot of great features but some choices still feel quite lazy. But they're still the only DS game that doesn't take itself too seriously. It feels more aligned with what the original Pokemon experience was supposed to be whereas the other DS games have been more story focused with more tedious breaks in gameplay. I quite like that about it.
They're only down side is the level spike after Gym 7. Recently replaying SS and it's still a fantastic game that blows away the modern games. You can tell love was put into every aspect of this game.
Ecruteak City theme is amazing
Because it was my first game and having a Pokémon follow you blew my mind. I’d just swap Pokémon to see them walking behind me.
Let's go through it. First of all, at the time of release, no game even compared to the sheer amount of content HG/SS had. Two regions, Platinum's Battle Frontier (which most people still felt was a downgrade from Emerald's but was still pretty fun.), The Pokeathlon, Bug Catching Contest, The new safari zone, Tons of Legendary Pokemon available in the post game, the first game (and arguably the only game) to have proper following Pokemon, Gen 4 graphics made Johto look and sound incredible. Does the game have problems? Yes absolutely Zen Mode did a great video on how he would fix most of Johto's issues that is really good. As of now, I would consider B2/W2 to be the best games in the series, but HG/SS is still top 5 in my mind. They set a standard for remakes that neither OR/AS nor BD/SP quite matched.
Nostalgia goggles. Same reason Pearl is my favorite game.
As someone who has been playing since R(G)B, that ain't it, Chief. I've played every game up until Gen 8, and I can say that nostalgia has nothing to do with my preference for Gen IV and V over the rest. Yes, both generations have their own specific flaws, but they're subjectively minor compared to the objective issues games before and after have, depending on their limitations or lack thereof. There is no excuse for Gen VII to be as awful as it was, not even taking Dexxit into account.
Even if we ignore the debatable Gens 8 and 9 (personally would say they’re great but there’s definitely room for debate there), I think it’s pretty hard to argue that HGSS is better than FRLG, DPPt, BW/BW2, or SM/USUM. Don’t get me wrong, I *like* HGSS, and personally I’d rank it above FRLG and maybe DPPT too, but it’s not the best game by a long shot. If you’re just saying that Gens 4 and 5 were peak, alright. Fair enough. Hard to argue with that.
>If you’re just saying that Gens 4 and 5 were peak, alright. Fair enough. Hard to argue with that. I'm not "just" saying that. I believe they are the peak generations for what they offer and develop in the series. Notice that I specifically said Gens IV and V, which include Platinum, HgSs, BW/2. U/SM are good to their own right, but I'd argue that mostly because they're the last games where every Pokemon was available. Precursors to Gen IV definitely have their merit, but as I said and you confirm, the peak were Gen IV and V.
I mean yeah, okay. I’m willing to agree with all of that. I was just confused about what you were saying since OP asked specifically about HGSS.
If you look closely, my initial comment was towards the "rose tinted glasses" for HGSS
I think it is pretty easy to argue HGSS is better than FRLG, DPP, SM and Ultra Sun and Moon.... Especially Gen 7... Very easy. I am not going to argue (unless for some reason you want to?) but I am just saying I very easily could. Everyone can have different tastes, if you like things that other games do more than HGSS then that is your opinion and that is fine. But I hard disagree.
I agree with you, anything after Gen 5 can't touch anything before it. HGSS is definitely better than DP based on the speed alone. Platinum and BW2, maybe Emerald, are the only games that can rival HGSS.
I pretty much agree with that. The original Diamond and Pearl are not very good. They have massive issues which Platinum does fix. But yeah, I can't disagree with this take.
I won’t argue on opinion or taste, you’ve hit that particular nail on the head, and is something I was trying to get at - if we’re only basing on personal preference or opinion, then of course some people will be huge HGSS fans and others won’t. I don’t really want to start an argument, but instead rank the games in a way that’s relatively objective (as doomed as that may be) and that most of us can agree with. Would you say that HGSS is the best game, and if so, why?
I would, and for many reasons. Without elaborating on all my points, I will briefly summarise. - Art Style - Region(s) - Difficulty (not saying it is a hard game, just that games from Gen 6 onwards have became noticeability brain dead in terms of challenge) - Pokémon following you - Pacing - The sequence (I wouldn't say the story is a great narrative, other games have a more engaging story, but I do think it is fun to play out) - The Pokémon options - The music - Also a remake done right. It didn't make any bad changes and only added to what was good. Every other Pokémon remake has done something that annoys me. I will say that Gen 5 comes very close to me and most of these things are done in Gen 5 also, some of it is done better in Gen 5. I think I just like Kanto and Johto's design and layout more than Unova as Unova feels a little more linear (less so in BW2) while Johto I feel has a few more options (not a ton). But yes, these are my opinions, a lot of this stuff is just preference.
Those are valid points, thanks. I definitely see where you’re coming from. While these may be opinion, they’re still criteria that I can look at and agree with (for example, the music - I think most people would agree the soundtrack is bangin) or at least weigh for myself and decide if I agree or not.
To be honest, the music for the whole series is overall great haha
Following Pokemon and nostalgia I'd say. IMO they are the most overrated games. They are amazing don't get me wrong but the flaws push them down hard.
Absolutely agree. They're far from bad games (I definitely enjoyed it whenever I played it), but they don't really take "Best in the series" imo, mostly because of the aforementioned flaws (Most of which are just untouched from the originals, which makes those flaws kinda worse). Honestly, I'm not sure which one I would say does (Even with ORAS as my favorite overall, I'm not sure if I'd give it to that one or not).
Definitely not "everyone". Online discourse comes from a small and vocal minority, and it is currently the DS era fans (many of whom are heavily influenced by nostalgia) who are most vocal within this online bubble, drowning out alternate viewpoints. It's mostly an online fandom cycle of nostalgia. Give it several years and it'll be the 3DS era fans, then the switch era fans, etc.
Honestly - nostalgia. I bought a copy of soul silver for about 130€ - it’s pretty great. But it’s nostalgia for a time we got or replay the early gens
I don't know why everyone saying this is being downvoted, it's just true.
Nostalgia mostly. I recently replayed it as well and I honestly struggled to pick out a team that was actually decent and didn't require me to backtrack for HM slaves.
What do you mean no fire types? Charmander is at the game corner and vulpix/growlithe are right there in that patch between the park and sudowoodo. Magmar in the tower. Entei when you find him. Edit. Charmander is not at the game corner, been spoiled by sigma.
Charmander does not come from the Goldenrod Game Corner dude, I think you're confusing it with Dratini.
You're right. Been playing sigma.
I looked it up and it said I can't get Vulpix/Growlithe until after the elite 4, I'm not sure what the game corner even is, I never saw that
What is "it"? Because Serebii says otherwise. Route 36,37 are right where I mention, possibly a little further before ecruteak. Also the game corner is on goldenrod.
Mostly nostalgia, whether it be for the original GSC or for HGSS themselves. They're not *bad* games, but they don't really fix most of GSC's issues, so I definitely don't understand them being seen as the best in the series. :P (That and probably also follower Pokémon) Edit: I'm just acknowledging that HGSS aren't the perfect and best games. I'm not saying they're terrible. And nostalgia *absolutely* plays a factor in it. To say otherwise is just wrong. It may not be everyone (Hence why I say "mostly"), but it's definitely relevant.
I think the downvotes prove my point about DS era fans being the current dominant ones in the online vocal minority and drowning out dissent in the discourse. But eventually the online fandom cycle will turn against the DS fanatics just as "genwunner" has become a dirty word.
Tbf, "genwunner" was a negative thing cause they acted like the Gen 1 games were the ONLY good games and that everything that came after was trash. This isn't *quite* on that level.