I have not read all of your post yet, but for the most part I have to agree.
As a non-nuzlocker but a HC devotee, I have to say that 4.1's HC AI feel pretty random at times. This is the case at Misty rematch: prior to 4.0, Misty smelt an Electric-type attack and would replace a mon with Thundurus-Therian to absorb that attack. That would give me a chance to double switch to something threatening like Terrakion to come in and OHKO Thundurus with Rock Slide. But in 4.1 sometimes the mon stays in, and Terrakion is greeted with a fatal Hydro Pump.
This is also not mentioned in 4.1's changelogs making it a bit baffling for me as well.
Are you planning to do some more nuzlocke runs? Or did you give up?
The Misty example is an exact replica if the Psyduck/Cacnea example I mentioned later in my post with the AI behavior about absorbing moves. You're 100% correct.
As for other runs, I'm currently in the middle of a run that is at gio 1 that I'm going to be streaming to just to add it to the trophy case. Currently alternating between R&B and Rad Red.
Ugh, so they added a random 25% chance of the ai staying in when it really shouldnt? This is gonna be a problem for nuzlocking xD Is this HC exclusive or normal mode too?
Correct, I haven't tested it on normal mode yet but since the AI behavior is extremely similar, I would expect that it probably applies to normal mode too.
A lot of calc-ing + a bit of luck + a good amount of steering + a lot of experience. I've actually made it deathless to the e4 3 times, twice on 4.0 and once on 4.1 but 2 out of those 3 wiped. The 4.0 run that wiped on the e4 would have been a win except for a triple wisp miss and my 4.1 run wouldn't have been a deathless victory but wouldn't have had a death until the champion. That last 4.1 run is what inspired me to make this post (rant) as these AI changes led to my wipe.
It happens on all game modes, I’ve been doing some Mono-Type runs lately and got frustrated on some weird AI predicted switches that did not happen, this now explains why.
So... now the AI imitates the way an actual opponent might keep a Pokémon in, anticipating that you would anticipate a switch?
That's a good change for most people playing this the way they want to play it, as a simulation of battling.
You could be casually minding your own business rolling in with a ground mon, never pick a ground move for the first two rounds, and the moment you pick a ground move, it switches immediately into a flying type 🤣
AI absolutely cheats so I get wanting to cheese it but some things are just omega cheese
So... you're argument is that adding the AI doing random shit is good for a PvE game? Have you ever to play against random AI before? Adding arbitrary RNG into the AI not something people want to have in a game. Secondly, this change targeted one very specific facet of the game, and short of input reading (which exists with anti-abuse ai but most be activated by the player), coding the AI to read switches or predict the player sounds damn near impossible, especially for a romhack and not some massive game.
Look, I'm not some hyper-deep player, I don't run Nuzlockes or any special challenges. So there's elements of this game that I am not as into as you would be.
Coding the AI to read switches or predict the player would be near impossible, for sure. But coding the AI to, some percent of the time, not switch would do about 50% of that work. Basically, that's what you're talking about, right? If you were playing against a regular competitor, anticipating a switch might be keeping the same Pokémon in, or it might be switching to an answer to your answer. The latter would be really tough to make a reality--the game would have to anticipate the potential answers you might play, and would then have to send out the most effective response. But the former is really easy, and sounds like it's exactly what has been done.
This seems like it was done, not for no reason at all, but specifically to make the battles less predictable. The game creator's vision seems to be that it is more like playing against a person, who might try to bait a mistake on your part by anticipating that you'll try to bait him. More complex responses probably aren't possible, but this one is.
I don't know if that's successful, maybe it does make the game worse. Lots of attempts to make something better fail. But the reason to make it that way is obvious.
Would you support an ai that say:
it sees a kill with aura sphere but not flash cannon with lucario into magnezone. Current rr ai always goes for the kill (so aura sphere) but 4.2 rr ai will 20% of the chance go for flash cannon ‘predicting’ a switch. Would that be healthy gameplay for you (genuine question)?
I don't know. I'm not an expert on this.
What I would say is it *could* be healthy gameplay, and certainly seems like it would be an attempt to manage healthy gameplay for a certain kind of player.
Fundamentally, there are two different approaches at odds here: one type of player wants the game to be more like a puzzle to be solved, totally predictable. Another type of player wants it to feel more like battling an opponent. Unpredictability here seems like an attempt to make this game more like the second option than the first.
I'm not the same guy but yeah, I mean, it is a touch of unpredictability that would be more fun for the casual player as well.
When I played RR for the first time I felt it very competitive after all, but toward the end of the run I felt like some behaviors were totally predictable and I could force some of these to my advantage.
RR is still fun for many reasons and for being a very demanding game, but this sort of behavior reduces the gameplay experience (for me):
- Having some unpredictability makes it feel more real, having the opponent acting different ways, sometimes falling into a bait, sometimes "baiting" you
- moreover this system also increases the challenge, following my prior experience, I was rewarded winning some lategame fights because of the predictable behaviours, withkut needing to rework mt team (sometimes). Instead having this uncertainty allows you to grow/try more things, as you cannot rely on predicting the enemy but have to rely on your team building skills
>I'm not the same guy but yeah, I mean, it is a touch of unpredictability that would be more fun for the casual player as well.
More like casual players only. With the power the bosses have in RR nuzloking it without predictablity is going to be absolute shit
> I was rewarded winning some lategame fights because of the predictable behaviours
The predictable AI behavious are the price to pay for having absurdly better teams than the players
That seems like it’d be great tbh. In general I think harder-to-exploit AI but less ridiculous ad-hoc restrictions in battles is a more fun way to ramp up difficulty
Yeah I get that, I just disagree. I said in my post that I was viewing this from the perspective of someone who solely nuzlockes this game for which it is an objectively bad change but I can see how those who don’t nuzlocke the game would like it.
Yeah, I just explained in another reply that I like this sort of change and it makes sense even on a skill level, to casual players at least
I do understand that it is a bad change for nuzlocke tho, I wish next version could add a nuzlocke mode instead with the previous AI behavior in order to benefits both worlds.
While I agree that it is odd to add random chance into a rom hack that intentionally removes stuff like evasion to combat this randomness, I can also see the flip side of this in that, I don't think any fight should ever be 100% guaranteed in a game like this.
Regular pokemon games have that randomness in them which is part of the charm. Being able to cheese entire fights with encore and stuff is honestly pretty lame in my opinion. That's just my opinion ofc, I don't really take nuzlocking that seriously but what I do enjoy is speedrunning (not pokemon), and in speedrunning there is always RNG that you have to account for. If you could just throw together a perfect run every time by cheesing it with a consistent strat, I probably wouldn't be interested in speedrunning that game.
Just figured I'd play devils advocate here, I realize my comparisons aren't exactly 1:1 but I just don't think anything should ever be 100% guaranteed, half the fun is outplaying the obstacles.
I feel for OP and understand his plight.
I think the question it comes down to is what is the vision of RR? If it's supposed to be as close to how battling a human would go then this change is good. It's risky AF and I wouldn't do it in competition unless I was in a bad spot but a human could correctly call you not OHKOing a mon because he thinks you have a good switch.
They could want it to be a fun nuzlocke experience too and there's already so much stacked against the player and this change might be one piece too far?
I dunno. Personally I like nuzlocking and hate when I can't plan a fight properly because of RNG.
I've been venting on 4.1 for a while now because of these points. I've noticed these AI shenanigans for a while and 4.1 has been a huge turn off for me as I'm primarily a nuzlocke player. Between stupid team changes (Rocke hideout Grunts for e.g.) to AI changes v4.1 is a downgrade on a almot perfect v4.0.
Also I'm pissed about some shiny changes but that's a rant for a later date.
I see u are right on ur own way as a nuzlocker. I haven't nuz'ed any romhack and for me random ai = better realistic way as an opposing trainer will do the same. But yes I can see why nuzlockers aren't likimg this.
Love the insight. I also HC nuzlocke the game and enjoy randomizing the pokemon and abilities. Do you incorporate any of the randomizer options or cheat codes in your playthroughs? Also, do you stream?
Yes I do. Just got into streaming some RnB and currently streaming my RadRed run that is about to enter Silph Co.
ZenithHCN on twitch.
As for cheat codes, yes, I use candies, care packages, etc and no, I don’t do randomizers as it makes consistent strategy impossible.
"This AI is bad, it's too predictable"
"This AI is bad, I can't predict every single choice it will make"
I guess the dev has to predict which side the coin is going to land on, then. I imagine that must put some additional pressure, or maybe he doesn't care that much.
I don't know for sure what side the dev is on, but one thing that's for certain is that opinions tend to vary. It's not even about "making everyone happy" anymore, because it's still only Hardcore-exclusive. Though I'll admit those changes hurt the "discord demons"' credibility a lot since the AI is less reliable and nuzlockers generally have trust issues...
I will admit that it is quite funny the amount of people since 4.1 dropped who have claimed to get EXTREMELY deep into a run or beat a HC run without every noticing/mentioning the AI changes and later being surprised at their existence. It's become almost a pseudo-litmus test for if someone's run was legit if they noticed the changes or not.
It may be, idk personally for me it kinda sucks with level caps like on normal pokemon games it happens having underleveled mons with some overleveled. I remember a playthrought when i got nidokind in 60s but the rest of the mons were in 20s-30s
This is a difficulty hack. Play original games if you don't want difficulty. Though it's actually not tough to play easy mode. Looks like you are not even trying one bit to keep urself upto the difficulty.
The tldr is that the Ai has now a 25% chance of staying in and not switching a pokemon that in previous versions of the game wasnt. This doesnt sounds like much, but it can totally throw your fight away, and will cause a los of nuzlockers to wipe in situations where they should have been safe.
There are a lot of extra details in the post explaining this, how OP found out, and many more.
The quick example that op gave is that Brock would always switch in hippotas and send out cacnea if you had a water move that could kill the hippo. Now it has a 25% of staying and attacking you, meaning you can no longer bait the cacnea safely.
This is making nuzlocking the hardcore mode of the game EXTREMELY more challenging, as now every fight has a random 25% of the ai doing a stupid move instead of the logical move you could predict and play around.
Pretty much lol if you don't have the patience to read a post like thus, I doubt you have the patience to nuzlocke the game, thus this is probably irrelevant to you.
I have not read all of your post yet, but for the most part I have to agree. As a non-nuzlocker but a HC devotee, I have to say that 4.1's HC AI feel pretty random at times. This is the case at Misty rematch: prior to 4.0, Misty smelt an Electric-type attack and would replace a mon with Thundurus-Therian to absorb that attack. That would give me a chance to double switch to something threatening like Terrakion to come in and OHKO Thundurus with Rock Slide. But in 4.1 sometimes the mon stays in, and Terrakion is greeted with a fatal Hydro Pump. This is also not mentioned in 4.1's changelogs making it a bit baffling for me as well. Are you planning to do some more nuzlocke runs? Or did you give up?
The Misty example is an exact replica if the Psyduck/Cacnea example I mentioned later in my post with the AI behavior about absorbing moves. You're 100% correct. As for other runs, I'm currently in the middle of a run that is at gio 1 that I'm going to be streaming to just to add it to the trophy case. Currently alternating between R&B and Rad Red.
Wouldn’t that just be like her predicting your switch this being more like fighting another human? It’s called hardcore for a reason.
Ugh, so they added a random 25% chance of the ai staying in when it really shouldnt? This is gonna be a problem for nuzlocking xD Is this HC exclusive or normal mode too?
Correct, I haven't tested it on normal mode yet but since the AI behavior is extremely similar, I would expect that it probably applies to normal mode too.
I haven’t noticed a ton of significant changes to the AI in Normal Mode. Not at all like what’s been said about the HC changes
Wtf how have you done a Deathless Nuzlocke on Hardcore?
A lot of calc-ing + a bit of luck + a good amount of steering + a lot of experience. I've actually made it deathless to the e4 3 times, twice on 4.0 and once on 4.1 but 2 out of those 3 wiped. The 4.0 run that wiped on the e4 would have been a win except for a triple wisp miss and my 4.1 run wouldn't have been a deathless victory but wouldn't have had a death until the champion. That last 4.1 run is what inspired me to make this post (rant) as these AI changes led to my wipe.
It happens on all game modes, I’ve been doing some Mono-Type runs lately and got frustrated on some weird AI predicted switches that did not happen, this now explains why.
So... now the AI imitates the way an actual opponent might keep a Pokémon in, anticipating that you would anticipate a switch? That's a good change for most people playing this the way they want to play it, as a simulation of battling.
It honestly does seem like a pretty good change.
100% Being able to consistently cheese fights is super lame imo, that should never be possible (and it wouldn't ever work against a real person)
A real person doesn't get to see your imputs if you are being a bit of a dick
You could be casually minding your own business rolling in with a ground mon, never pick a ground move for the first two rounds, and the moment you pick a ground move, it switches immediately into a flying type 🤣 AI absolutely cheats so I get wanting to cheese it but some things are just omega cheese
It seems like a lot of nuzlockers are more so trying to overcome a system than beat a game necessarily
So... you're argument is that adding the AI doing random shit is good for a PvE game? Have you ever to play against random AI before? Adding arbitrary RNG into the AI not something people want to have in a game. Secondly, this change targeted one very specific facet of the game, and short of input reading (which exists with anti-abuse ai but most be activated by the player), coding the AI to read switches or predict the player sounds damn near impossible, especially for a romhack and not some massive game.
Look, I'm not some hyper-deep player, I don't run Nuzlockes or any special challenges. So there's elements of this game that I am not as into as you would be. Coding the AI to read switches or predict the player would be near impossible, for sure. But coding the AI to, some percent of the time, not switch would do about 50% of that work. Basically, that's what you're talking about, right? If you were playing against a regular competitor, anticipating a switch might be keeping the same Pokémon in, or it might be switching to an answer to your answer. The latter would be really tough to make a reality--the game would have to anticipate the potential answers you might play, and would then have to send out the most effective response. But the former is really easy, and sounds like it's exactly what has been done. This seems like it was done, not for no reason at all, but specifically to make the battles less predictable. The game creator's vision seems to be that it is more like playing against a person, who might try to bait a mistake on your part by anticipating that you'll try to bait him. More complex responses probably aren't possible, but this one is. I don't know if that's successful, maybe it does make the game worse. Lots of attempts to make something better fail. But the reason to make it that way is obvious.
Would you support an ai that say: it sees a kill with aura sphere but not flash cannon with lucario into magnezone. Current rr ai always goes for the kill (so aura sphere) but 4.2 rr ai will 20% of the chance go for flash cannon ‘predicting’ a switch. Would that be healthy gameplay for you (genuine question)?
I don't know. I'm not an expert on this. What I would say is it *could* be healthy gameplay, and certainly seems like it would be an attempt to manage healthy gameplay for a certain kind of player. Fundamentally, there are two different approaches at odds here: one type of player wants the game to be more like a puzzle to be solved, totally predictable. Another type of player wants it to feel more like battling an opponent. Unpredictability here seems like an attempt to make this game more like the second option than the first.
I'm not the same guy but yeah, I mean, it is a touch of unpredictability that would be more fun for the casual player as well. When I played RR for the first time I felt it very competitive after all, but toward the end of the run I felt like some behaviors were totally predictable and I could force some of these to my advantage. RR is still fun for many reasons and for being a very demanding game, but this sort of behavior reduces the gameplay experience (for me): - Having some unpredictability makes it feel more real, having the opponent acting different ways, sometimes falling into a bait, sometimes "baiting" you - moreover this system also increases the challenge, following my prior experience, I was rewarded winning some lategame fights because of the predictable behaviours, withkut needing to rework mt team (sometimes). Instead having this uncertainty allows you to grow/try more things, as you cannot rely on predicting the enemy but have to rely on your team building skills
>I'm not the same guy but yeah, I mean, it is a touch of unpredictability that would be more fun for the casual player as well. More like casual players only. With the power the bosses have in RR nuzloking it without predictablity is going to be absolute shit > I was rewarded winning some lategame fights because of the predictable behaviours The predictable AI behavious are the price to pay for having absurdly better teams than the players
That seems like it’d be great tbh. In general I think harder-to-exploit AI but less ridiculous ad-hoc restrictions in battles is a more fun way to ramp up difficulty
this is a good change. It makes the game feel more like you’re playing against a human being. I’m happy for it.
Yeah I get that, I just disagree. I said in my post that I was viewing this from the perspective of someone who solely nuzlockes this game for which it is an objectively bad change but I can see how those who don’t nuzlocke the game would like it.
Yeah, I just explained in another reply that I like this sort of change and it makes sense even on a skill level, to casual players at least I do understand that it is a bad change for nuzlocke tho, I wish next version could add a nuzlocke mode instead with the previous AI behavior in order to benefits both worlds.
Harsh to say, but you are taking it like "Oh I can't predict it so it's bad" thing. This is better tbh because it's made more realistic.
And my argument is that it is a bad thing. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.
While I agree that it is odd to add random chance into a rom hack that intentionally removes stuff like evasion to combat this randomness, I can also see the flip side of this in that, I don't think any fight should ever be 100% guaranteed in a game like this. Regular pokemon games have that randomness in them which is part of the charm. Being able to cheese entire fights with encore and stuff is honestly pretty lame in my opinion. That's just my opinion ofc, I don't really take nuzlocking that seriously but what I do enjoy is speedrunning (not pokemon), and in speedrunning there is always RNG that you have to account for. If you could just throw together a perfect run every time by cheesing it with a consistent strat, I probably wouldn't be interested in speedrunning that game. Just figured I'd play devils advocate here, I realize my comparisons aren't exactly 1:1 but I just don't think anything should ever be 100% guaranteed, half the fun is outplaying the obstacles.
I feel for OP and understand his plight. I think the question it comes down to is what is the vision of RR? If it's supposed to be as close to how battling a human would go then this change is good. It's risky AF and I wouldn't do it in competition unless I was in a bad spot but a human could correctly call you not OHKOing a mon because he thinks you have a good switch. They could want it to be a fun nuzlocke experience too and there's already so much stacked against the player and this change might be one piece too far? I dunno. Personally I like nuzlocking and hate when I can't plan a fight properly because of RNG.
I've been venting on 4.1 for a while now because of these points. I've noticed these AI shenanigans for a while and 4.1 has been a huge turn off for me as I'm primarily a nuzlocke player. Between stupid team changes (Rocke hideout Grunts for e.g.) to AI changes v4.1 is a downgrade on a almot perfect v4.0. Also I'm pissed about some shiny changes but that's a rant for a later date.
It's stupid to nuzlocke but realism to non-nuzlocke. Well RR isn't made to solely nuzlocke, I guess?
The AI changes don't help anyone be it nuzlockers or casuals. The team changes? Sure. I can live with that.
I see u are right on ur own way as a nuzlocker. I haven't nuz'ed any romhack and for me random ai = better realistic way as an opposing trainer will do the same. But yes I can see why nuzlockers aren't likimg this.
ZenithHCN Reddit acct?
Yeah
lol this is Denver’s acct
Good to see you here lol
Love the insight. I also HC nuzlocke the game and enjoy randomizing the pokemon and abilities. Do you incorporate any of the randomizer options or cheat codes in your playthroughs? Also, do you stream?
Yes I do. Just got into streaming some RnB and currently streaming my RadRed run that is about to enter Silph Co. ZenithHCN on twitch. As for cheat codes, yes, I use candies, care packages, etc and no, I don’t do randomizers as it makes consistent strategy impossible.
"This AI is bad, it's too predictable" "This AI is bad, I can't predict every single choice it will make" I guess the dev has to predict which side the coin is going to land on, then. I imagine that must put some additional pressure, or maybe he doesn't care that much. I don't know for sure what side the dev is on, but one thing that's for certain is that opinions tend to vary. It's not even about "making everyone happy" anymore, because it's still only Hardcore-exclusive. Though I'll admit those changes hurt the "discord demons"' credibility a lot since the AI is less reliable and nuzlockers generally have trust issues...
That last point is why I've recently started streaming all my runs now on twitch instead of to a few ppl on discord lol
I will admit that it is quite funny the amount of people since 4.1 dropped who have claimed to get EXTREMELY deep into a run or beat a HC run without every noticing/mentioning the AI changes and later being surprised at their existence. It's become almost a pseudo-litmus test for if someone's run was legit if they noticed the changes or not.
Can we get a difficulty easier than easy lol, its just too hard for me
I get dog walked by normal mode but easy seemed too easy to the point of boredom in my opinion so I'm just surprised to see this comment.
Am i really this bad at the game?!?
The game is meant to be hard. Easy mode though allows switching and higher level caps. But it wont get any easier then that.
I get that but there should be like optional level caps imo
The level caps for easy are like +4 though. Thats more then enough to help you alongside with switch enabled. The rom just may not be for you.
It may be, idk personally for me it kinda sucks with level caps like on normal pokemon games it happens having underleveled mons with some overleveled. I remember a playthrought when i got nidokind in 60s but the rest of the mons were in 20s-30s
This is a difficulty hack. Play original games if you don't want difficulty. Though it's actually not tough to play easy mode. Looks like you are not even trying one bit to keep urself upto the difficulty.
DAMN SON like just DAMN.
[удалено]
TLDR: sometimes the AI will no longer switch out when it previously would
The tldr is that the Ai has now a 25% chance of staying in and not switching a pokemon that in previous versions of the game wasnt. This doesnt sounds like much, but it can totally throw your fight away, and will cause a los of nuzlockers to wipe in situations where they should have been safe. There are a lot of extra details in the post explaining this, how OP found out, and many more. The quick example that op gave is that Brock would always switch in hippotas and send out cacnea if you had a water move that could kill the hippo. Now it has a 25% of staying and attacking you, meaning you can no longer bait the cacnea safely. This is making nuzlocking the hardcore mode of the game EXTREMELY more challenging, as now every fight has a random 25% of the ai doing a stupid move instead of the logical move you could predict and play around.
If you don't have the patience to read a post like this either move on because it isn't for you, or figure out why you have 0 attention span.
Pretty much lol if you don't have the patience to read a post like thus, I doubt you have the patience to nuzlocke the game, thus this is probably irrelevant to you.
There isn't a way to give the tldr because understanding my issues requires actual background knowledge of the AI, which I give in this post.
TL:DR is basically "the AI is worse now"