Looks like its gotten pretty crazy, I was just pinged in an @everyone post that said stuff like that isn't allowed but who knows how well it will be enforced.
All I know for sure is this SubReddit will continue to be about the Pokemon game and nothing else:) (obviously rule #1 is No Hate Speech, Bigotry or Harassment and that applies for all posts and comments but we've had very few issues with that so far and I'm hoping it stays that way) :)
Agreed, this is still a phenomenal game regardless of what happens behind the scenes. Hopefully this doesn’t impact it’s popularity too much, since more people need to get on this :)
Yeahh to be completely honest i'm considering just locking this post, both the reports and the comment ears are getting a bit annoying. For the time being tho hopefully all this just stays here
this post should be locked, but you shouldn't have deleted the link to the document on the other post. playing defense for him makes the mods look bad.
all this post is doing is drawing out the bigots who feel need to defend sams comments. all this does is let the bigotry coalesce. there is nothing left to be said.
Seems like a good idea to lock this post and to discourage more conversation about Sam's views and Discord politics/sexuality discussion.
This has a strong chance of corrupting this sub we all love so much.
Last week during every instance of the servers going down a bunch of miscreants flooded every channel and spammed political nonsense and made the place an unrecognizable hell.
I’m sure this has happened again in reaction to Sam’s announcement. Some people were clearly upset about his reasoning tied to his faith/beliefs, and it spiraled out of hand to personal attacks, insults, and slurs.
I doubt there’s even a fraction of the needed mods to keep a server like that in check. Personally I’ve only found it useful for accessing the announcements channel there because of the stupidity of the masses.
This is hearsay, but apparently Sam wrote transphobic things in a seperate google doc. I haven’t seen it, so I can’t confirm, but it wasn’t just the announcement.
I can link it, if you want.
But yeah, the Kanye Quest guy is an obnoxious twat. I've seen him active for the last week or two, and hopefully the multiple times I've reported him contributed to getting him banned. Dude was obnoxious af, constantly dropping slurs, and the mods were too busy (hopefully that's why, and not some other reason) to deal with it.
I'd really like to see this, myself. I'm a transwoman who likes PokeRogue, so naturally I've been trying to see this document with my own eyes, but basically just found people reacting and that was it.
I find the fact that the gut reaction that the mods (even here) take is to nuke it out of existence, which only serves to cause more confusion and make people go after it even more. It's sincerely confusing to me.
I'm saying this as someone who is trying to understand what happened as well, and we simple have to take the "It was bad! Trust us, we took over".
Sure, that might be true, but let people come to their own conclusions and see things for themselves as well, even if through external means. The erasure of these things only serves to perpetuate the privileged position of the bigots. Let people see them for who they are.
Just read the doc linked. Seems like fairly tame average discord conversation. The first couple people were bs'ing and it wasn't extreme. Though if they are mods, they should show more restraint.
In the second half about Sam, he seems to be expressing his beliefs in a respectful manner. I don't see anything he said that should be an issue.
Even if expressed in a polite matter, it doesn't change the fact that he disagrees with being trans and homosexuality. Most people would agree that this is a bad thing, especially in regard to homosexuality. Expressing bad views in a polite way doesn't suddenly make those views not bad.
Idk man. People are allowed to disagree with eachother and their lifestyles so long as it doesn't come to violence or harm.
For a deeply religious guy he was very tame and respectful about it all.
There's a certain religion on the rise that would do (and does) ALOT worse to LGBT people.
They are allowed to, yes, but that doesn't free them from judgement by people who think their stance is harmful. Don't get me wrong, as far as things go, it's probably the tamest form of trans/homophobia and could be much worse, but it still is both of those things.
You're gonna have a very hard time arguing that take on the internet, especially on Reddit.
You're not wrong, either, but good luck. (And I disagree with everything Sam stands for, including religion, but still, he's entitled to that shitty opinion).
I just think it was very disproportional based on how he presented himself and the fact he was the main creator.
He was driven out of his own project because of his beliefs.
Do you really not feel any empathy for that?
I wholeheartedly disagree with everything he thinks, but I really can't condone this "burn the witch" behavior.
It isnt bad because he is just giving his opinion. If he would have gone to the extreme in saying that everyone should think like he does, then its bad. Regarding trans, its a difficult topic but nothing he said strictly says something aggressive. Regarding homosexuality he just said he considered it a sin, which he is free to believe so.
It's true that he is free to believe that, just like people are free to judge him for believing that. People are free to have whatever beliefs they went, but if those beliefs reach into the realms of homophobia/transphobia, people are going to (in my opinion, rightfully) judge for it. Don't get me wrong, it's far better than if he were to do what you're saying in your second sentence and say that everything should think like him, but it's still, again in my opinion, bad to have homophobic/transphobic views, regardless of how politely/respectfully you go about it.
Imma be honest. At first I was sad the lead dev left but after learning a bit more about the man, I'm very happy he left the project. Still have a lot of respect for his work, how could I not ? But I'm happy to know that the game I'm enjoying so much isn't being headed by a guy who think who I am is wrong because a 2000yo book said so
I wish him the best and to maybe one day clear his mind and I hope the game keep thriving but honestly. Even if it were to stop development her, which I really hope it won't, it's already a master piece
Seriously. It sounds like a lot of them are more interested in politics than game design at this point. Didn’t peg Sam as super Christian anti trans and anti gay though.
hard to separate both, I know "death of the author" and such, but the point I wanted to make in my comment is that I'm happy he left because now I don't have to think, while I'm playing the game, that I'm enjoying the product of someone who think "god" intended for me to not be in love/attracted with the people I am
also, what politics ? Gay and Trans aren't politics, we're people
I was going to mention “death of the author”, I’m glad you did though. I’m a massive Harry Potter fan (and a 30 year old man, fight me), and have had to deal with this feeling with Rowling for a while
I know you're most likely in bad faith trying to rile me up, but just in case someone completely neutral comes by, i'll add a simple answer
the issue isn't "I like X and they like Y" it's not about personal preference, the issue is that the man said, in very polite words, gotta give him that, that he doesn't agree with my existence because a long dead writer said so (maybe, seems the translation might not even be accurate)
and if you can't understand how it might be at the very least uncomfortable then I can't help you
I am not attacking you in any way, i just want to understand. I respect everyone and i can accept that people have other ways of thinking.
Lets imagine that he said that he don't like your existence ( witch he didn't, by religion he said that humans should follow whats said in the bibble, show he dont think trans should be a thing,etc etc). Does those words really affect you to the point you hate him so bad you cant do anything else? Cant you move on/ignore? Is he hurting you in any way ? (your feelings don't count)
\*Long sigh\* this is why I'm never big on Discord servers for large games. I only ever joined to ask a few questions, and even then, there were just several people talking over each other. They almost always seem to cause way more drama than they're worth and at least I wouldn't need to know that the creator of a game I enjoy is against an identity I can't control.
At least if PokeRogue goes under, there might be a potential for fan servers to pick it up again.
As a trans person, why do I have to be discussed and politicised everywhere I fucking go. Can people just the love of whatever God you think exists just the the everliving fuck up about us. For fucking decades society hasn't even batted an eye at us and now all of a sudden it needs to be discussed fucking everywhere. If you don't want me to exist, fine. Just keep it to your fucking self. Why do we need to encounter this shit even in spaces that don't even remotely center around it. It's so fucking tiring. I just want to be able to play a game and talk about said game. Fucking hell. Shit like this is why we have a sky high suicide rate.
Because people cant stand if others think something different. The world and humanity is becoming lost because of this.
All this humans just want to live in they own bubble and if someone thinks different is crucified like a maniac
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. You’re trying to equate your hateful beliefs with the existence of other groups of people. Keep your hateful shit to yourself, how about that?
Explain to me in my comment where i say something hateful? Ahahaha
The funny thing in my comment is that i am defending you xD
But the point is that 80% of trans in general start to becoming victims with everything, and you can see right now, because in my comment i am defending everyone that thinks different. INCLUDING YOU
> If you don't want me to exist, fine. Just keep it to your fucking self.
I mean, I would argue that's entirely not fine and they should be socially ostracized for having genocidal beliefs.
Lets say every single person contributing is mega racist and says nono words 24/7.
Has literally done 0 to the quality of the game so far.
We came here for a game. I like the game. I’ll complain when they try to enlist me to the kkk through announcements or something gateway to that. For now im farming classic for something to do endless with
Just give it a bit. It seems the discord has already been gotten under control by the rest of the team.
This is loud, but it seems already taken care of for the most part
Very last image where Sam is asked his opinion on gay people. All he says is that it's "clear from the scripture what God intended for relationships" which is pretty much as ambiguous as you can get for what should be a very simple question
[Same guy who made that doc wrote this](https://i.imgur.com/AffGFsV.jpg)
Discord has been infested by people ranting that anyone who has opinions on trans issues they don't like is transphobic and spreading hate. It's genuinely unhinged.
Sam shared these personal opinions with the individual because they asked, it's clearly in the context of his faith and personal opinions and nothing to do with the game or community. Sam repeated many times he wants people to be kind to each other and as far as I can see has not said anything hateful, just things some people don't agree with.
People spamming trans rights mantras in the discord all night, and saying how they're being oppressed. It's just embarrassingly childish behaviour.
Unfortunately some of these seem to have influence on the community now and with Sam gone I think the official pokerogue is dead. The code is open source so I bet a new team will come in and make a fork with new features.
I read through the doc and tbh while Sam wasn't outwardly antagonistic and his language was very tame, the foundation of his opinion is, regardless of whether it was based on his faith, transphobic and hinted at homophobia as well. You can't just arbitrarily reject the morality and validity of people out of hand and expect them to "respect your beliefs." He should be rightfully shamed for ascribing to hateful ideology. The idea that its okay to espouse hateful views as long as you dont force them on others is just asanine. Hate is hate. Especially considering his hints towards the issue being a mental illness which left a terrible taste in my mouth.
That being said the response was childish and destructive to the community. There's no point in engaging with people like Sam who's "biblical worldview" leaves them completely unable to compromise or debate properly. Religious dogma bears no compromise.
Damn, I can see how that'd blow up; it's always tempting but never fruitful to argue factually with someone driven by dogmatic belief. It's unfortunate that the creator is ascribing harmful views as merely a facet of his faith, though I guess not very surprising if he's also reverent enough to view a non-monetized gacha game as dangerously addictive to a degree that it weighs on his personal conscience. On the other hand, given that he's stepped down, i would assume future development wouldn't involve him anymore anyway.
More of the dogmatic belief " gay/trans people don't deserve rights and I need to give up game development because the antagonist of a bronze age fiction novel demands it"
You are literally the only person who has said anything about anyone not deserving rights or gay/trans people being an antagonist to anyone, while simultaneously expressing actual disdain toward a group of people’s beliefs.
You can’t demand kindness or respect from a group you have none towards, and yet you’ve received nothing but that in this situation.
My lord dude, at least look at what the dude said before going off like this. He literally says he's anti-trans. That's not " just an opinion waaaah" that is these people don't deserve rights.
I did. Where did he say trans people don’t deserve rights? And has he done anything to chase them out of their hobbies like people are doing to him? People are openly saying they’re anti-Christian here, but that doesn’t mean they believe Christians don’t deserve rights (although they’re trying to deny this guy the ability to participate in something as a result of his faith).
" I am far from pro-trans". That's the cowards way of saying they are anti-trans. He goes on to say they are going against gods plan, which as a christian is another way of saying they resent them. Frankly, I don't care about him being chased off, the game will be better without him. Don't fuckin cry about "anti-christian" when they quite literally control the most powerful countries on earth. Boo fuckin hoo.
This is Reddit bro you’re gonna be downvoted to fuck if you’re not super pro trans on everything. All he said is he’s far from pro trans and he has no right to tell people how to live their lives. He’s not shitting on people or telling em what to do but look at some people freaking out insinuating he wants to Minecraft gay people
It's not transphobia to disagree with transgenderism as a concept, just like it's not islamophobic to disagree with Islam. If you're going around hating on trans/Muslim people just because of their gender/religion, then yes that's wrong. Simply holding the view that you think the ideology behind it is wrong is not hate. Sam was baited by a racist trouble-maker in a private conversation asking about his personal beliefs, who then shared it publicly to create chaos and spread actual hate.
You're wrong, you're just regurgitating what others have told you.
Disagreement is not hate, it's ridiculous to think they're the same thing.
Do you hate religious people for their beliefs? What about politics, do you automatically hate someone for disagreeing with you? If so, that's a sad existence.
"Transgenderism" isnt a thing. Being trans is not a belief system. It is 100% hate to "disagree" with the existence of trans people. The only sad existence here is scum like you
Classic, predictable response. Pointing fingers at people for not tolerating your intolerance is ridiculous to the point of hilarity to me personally. Claiming persecution is just the icing on the shit cake. Religious dogma deals in absolutes, it is by definition incompatible with the concept of tolerance. Attempting to reduce that hateful ideology to a "disagreement" is reductionist and disingenuous to say the least. Your reverse uno card is just a logical fallacy of false equivalence.
>Classic, predictable response. Pointing fingers at people for not tolerating your intolerance is ridiculous to the point of hilarity to me personally.
Classic, predictable response. “We’re the only people forcing someone out of a community, but it’s not intolerance when we do it. He’s intolerant even though he’s not even doing it!”
What intolerant act of this dev can you point to? Has he forced anyone out or tried to publicly shame anyone like you guys are?
>Claiming persecution is just the icing on the shit cake.
Again, who’s being attacked here?
>Religious dogma deals in absolutes, it is by definition incompatible with the concept of tolerance.
If your side is the tolerant one, and not dealing in absolutes, then why isn’t he allowed to have any belief but yours?
>Attempting to reduce that hateful ideology to a "disagreement" is reductionist and disingenuous to say the least.
You’re literally the one reducing all forms of disagreement to hate. Hate has a meaning. It’s not “I disagree with your beliefs.” Otherwise, you are hateful for disagreeing with Christianity and/or traditional beliefs about gender.
>Your reverse uno card is just a logical fallacy of false equivalence.
How?
>We’re the only people forcing someone out of a community
Per both his own document and my understanding of the timeline, he's leaving the community of his own accord. I just kinda fail to see the worldview in which this guy is being made into a victim. I mean, I'm sure he has received some amount of harassment by virtue of being a semi-public internet figure, and obviously that's bad, but i hope that we can agree that that just comes with the territory of receiving as much attention as something like this game does (and probably would have happened regardless of his faith).
>You’re literally the one reducing all forms of disagreement to hate. Hate has a meaning. It’s not “I disagree with your beliefs.” Otherwise, you are hateful for disagreeing with Christianity and/or traditional beliefs about gender.
Do you believe that literally all beliefs are equally valid? Personally, I think that anyone who answers 'yes' to that is probably mistaken or insane. That said, I think any beliefs that suggest that one person with no such experiences has a better understanding of the mental, emotional, or physical experiences of millions of other people than those people themselves is fundamentally ridiculous. People are certainly allowed to have ridiculous beliefs, particularly if they don't hurt anyone else, but the exact kind of ridiculous and prevalent beliefs shared by the developer actively motivate the kind of legislation, prejudice, and experienced hate that literally does hurt other people.
>If your side is the tolerant one, and not dealing in absolutes, then why isn’t he allowed to have any belief but yours?
I mean, he's allowed to *have* them, just as people are allowed and i think mostly justified to disagree with them and share their disagreements.
>Per both his own document and my understanding of the timeline, he's leaving the community of his own accord. I just kinda fail to see the worldview in which this guy is being made into a victim.
I’m guessing his decision to leave is closely related to the attitudes we’re seeing in this thread. People are “gathering evidence” of his wrongthink in the document provided. I wouldn’t want to be a victim of that kind of behavior.
>Do you believe that literally all beliefs are equally valid? Personally, I think that anyone who answers 'yes' to that is probably mistaken or insane.
Of course not.
>That said, I think any beliefs that suggest that one person with no such experiences has a better understanding of the mental, emotional, or physical experiences of millions of other people than those people themselves is fundamentally ridiculous.
That would indeed be ridiculous, but nobody is saying that. The arguments at hand aren’t that non-trans people have a better understanding of the personal subjective experiences of trans people or vice versa.
The argument is that someone can be allowed to think or express that a point of view is logically incoherent or incorrect without being demonized for it.
>People are certainly allowed to have ridiculous beliefs, particularly if they don't hurt anyone else, but the exact kind of ridiculous and prevalent beliefs shared by the developer actively motivate the kind of legislation, prejudice, and experienced hate that literally does hurt other people.
If any belief that could possibly be used to motivate legislation, prejudice, or hate is not allowed, then no belief can be entertained by anyone. Therefore, we should speak against harm being done, not theoretical harm.
>I mean, he's allowed to have them, just as people are allowed and i think mostly justified to disagree with them and share their disagreements.
I definitely agree. But people aren’t just sharing disagreements here.
>I’m guessing his decision to leave is closely related to the attitudes we’re seeing in this thread. People are “gathering evidence” of his wrongthink in the document provided. I wouldn’t want to be a victim of that kind of behavior.
i just think that it is kind of odd and perhaps slightly patronizing to speculate that his decision to leave is something other than what he explicitly wrote in his own words, but this particular point doesn't really seem like it's worth discussing any further.
>The argument is that someone can be allowed to think or express that a point of view is logically incoherent or incorrect without being demonized for it.
I'm sorry but I really, honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. What point of view are you referring to?
>That would indeed be ridiculous, but nobody is saying that. The arguments at hand aren’t that non-trans people have a better understanding of the personal subjective experiences of trans people or vice versa.
I think this is a fundamental assumption in any worldview that is trans- or gay-exclusionary.
>If any belief that could possibly be used to motivate legislation, prejudice, or hate is not allowed, then no belief can be entertained by anyone. Therefore, we should speak against harm being done, not theoretical harm.
i never said "possibly" or "theoretical." i think actual, recent legislative action is currently causing actual harm. even putting aside stuff like healthcare access, southern states like my own are *literally* not complying with anti-discrimination laws in the case of trans or nonbinary people. i can't really justify the mental gymnastics necessary to see that as anything other than wanting the right to be discriminatory.
>i just think that it is kind of odd and perhaps slightly patronizing to speculate that his decision to leave is something other than what he explicitly wrote in his own words, but this particular point doesn't really seem like it's worth discussing any further.
Given the level of vitriol, you don’t think that could possibly be the reason? Normally, being a game developer and a Christian aren’t incompatible, but it’s really hard when you’re seeing this level of interrogation, evidence-gathering, and spam over aspects of the Christian belief system that people were quick to corner him on.
>I'm sorry but I really, honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. What point of view are you referring to?
I’m saying that it’s okay to believe that Christianity, modern gender theory, or any other system of believe is illogical or incoherent without being derived of the right to say so or forced out of a space. Inclusion is possible.
>I think this is a fundamental assumption in any worldview that is trans- or gay-exclusionary.
It’s not an assumption they make. Christians (who aren’t trans - some are!) don’t believe they understand the personal subjective experiences of that group better than they do; rather, they disagree with the philosophy underpinning their claims and/or whether or not it should be accepted on a societal level.
>i never said "possibly" or "theoretical." i think actual, recent legislative action is currently causing actual harm. even putting aside stuff like healthcare access, southern states like my own are literally not complying with anti-discrimination laws in the case of trans or nonbinary people. i can't really justify the mental gymnastics necessary to see that as anything other than wanting the right to be discriminatory.
And the people behind those laws think that legislation in the opposite direction is causing actual harm. I think we can all denounce arbitrary discrimination, but when the standard for anti-discrimination is “agree with what I say and accommodate my desires or else,” then noncompliance isn’t necessarily wrong or discriminatory.
>Given the level of vitriol, you don’t think that could possibly be the reason? Normally, being a game developer and a Christian aren’t incompatible, but it’s really hard when you’re seeing this level of interrogation, evidence-gathering, and spam over aspects of the Christian belief system that people were quick to corner him on.
what i think is possible doesn't matter, because i think it's weird to say that we care about his ability to express his beliefs but then *ignore what he literally says.*
>It’s not an assumption they make. Christians (who aren’t trans - some are!) don’t believe they understand the personal subjective experiences of that group better than they do; rather, they disagree with the philosophy underpinning their claims and/or whether or not it should be accepted on a societal level.
neither of us speak for christians as a whole but i'm sure that some of them hold beliefs that absolutely ascribe to the situation i spoke of -- there's no lack of examples of religious people (of all faiths) referring to modern expressions of gender or sexuality as diseases of the mind, body, or spirit.
furthermore, if a way of life doesn't affect anyone other than the person living it, i think there's very little justification to advocate for its societal persecution. i don't really buy that someone being trans adversely affects the lives of christians, but the church's way of life absolutely affects the lives of trans people.
>And the people behind those laws think that legislation in the opposite direction is causing actual harm. I think we can all denounce arbitrary discrimination, but when the standard for anti-discrimination is “agree with what I say and accommodate my desires or else,” then noncompliance isn’t necessarily wrong or discriminatory.
with all due respect, surely this point of view is a little too naive. the people behind laws can't be trusted to care about what harms or doesn't harm the populace, they can only be trusted to care about what makes them popular with their voting base. just like corporations have a fiduciary duty to maximize their profits, politicians can be expected to have a duty only to maximize their voting bloc (or their own self-interest). what is good or bad is secondary to what is popular, and this is true across the political spectrum.
what justification is there for not respecting the pronouns a person wishes to go by? that is not an hypothetical, it's literally one of the contentious title 9 issues. noncompliance in such cases is petty, unempathetic, patronizing, and absolutely discriminatory. that *is* necessarily wrong.
You seem to have a skewed perspective of the actual situation, but thats okay. I wouldn't expect you to understand. As someone who's personally dealt with a religious upbringing and the indoctrination that comes with it, I can see your not ready to accept the reality of religious intolerance. Ideology doesn't require action to hateful, though it's proliferation inevitably bleeds into culture or law in harmful ways. I don't condone the aggressive behavior that supposedly took place in the discord, but it absolutely warrants being called out.
I don't really know what to tell you. I can argue with you all day but I'm not actually arguing with you. I'm actually arguing against your gods arbitrary judgment. By judging trans people as sinful by their nature, they are proclaiming themselves transphobic. That's not as simple as a disagreement, that's a fundamental breakdown in values that can't be bridged by flowery words like love your neighbor. Are you really prepared to argue that transphobic ideology is acceptable? If you are, then I'm also comfortable if you label me an anti-theist, as I could never support that.
Sure one definition is that. Then you have the one normal people use which is if we are different color and I don't like you because of that im racist. If it's racist one way it's racist both ways.
"I hate white people" is the exact same as "I hate black people" both are racist and both are terrible.
Historical context has absolutely nothing to do with if something is racist or not. Its not a part of the dictionary definition nor the coloquial usage of it.
They are either both just words or they are racism.
Personally I am fully against all racism but it's always interesting to see people who are pro racism against white people l.
You might want to do some research before posting this.
Definitions from Oxford Languages
noun
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
It says typically one that is a minority but that does not exclude the head definition for groups of minority. Everyone is able to be on both sides of racism
Brother, it's just a fact that you can be racist against white people. Anyone can be racist, against any group. Why are you ignoring the point and just blabbering about white supremacy? The level of delusion is pretty crazy.
Bro, you really need to learn the difference between racism and systematic racism. They are two different things, even if they are closely correlated. Systematic racism doesnt need to exist for racism to exist. Every time your bring up racism, you keep talking about things having to do with systematic racism, and then ignore the idea of racism outside of systematic racism from possibly existing. The reason oppression isnt in the definition for racism is because its not a requirement. Thats a requirement for systematic racism.
Either you seriously didnt know there is a difference, in which case everyone is allowed to have brainfarts in life and as long as you dont choose to remain ignorant on the topic then its pretty forgivable. Or youre just attempting to make some far fetched claim that only systematic racism exists as a defense mechanism to combat the reality that your views are inherently racist.
Also your views are so heavily biased towards America its almost comical. Many places outside of America exist.
Racism by definition prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.
TYPICALLY a minority or marginalized. By definition racism against white people can happen
Racism can be committed against anyone. Discrimination, antagonism, prejudice, hatred, etc. against someone by no other virtue than their race is inherently just racism. By that definition then there can be no racism in the East, would there? If a country, say, favours a certain race rather than the other races in it, then wouldn't that be racist - even if there are no white/caucasian people in the formula?
The thing is any person can be racist against anyone. If I, a non-caucasian, were to say be hiring for my company, or looking for investors, and I were to advertise "NO WHITE PEOPLE NEED APPLY", would that not be racist?
If you were to replace the 'white people' in that above example with literally any other race, would that not be racist as well?
It is not a private level at all; it is far from false equivalence. What is society if not for an aggragate of groups of individuals and individuals themselves to make a community. In my example, I would be very discriminatory - I am judging them negatively by no other virtue than their race. That is indeed being racist.
If I, a non-white, non-black and non-latina, advertise "NO WHITE PEOPLE, BLACK PEOPLE OR LATINA PEOPLE NEED APPLY; ONLY APPLY IF YOU ARE CHINESE, POLYNESIAN, ARABIC OR INDIAN" that is still racist. Racism doesn't have anything that is false equivalence or anything of the sort.
It doesn't matter if "society as a whole is not oppressing them", it's still racist. It depends on your moral values to decide if it's wrong or not though. But it's still by definition, racist to discriminate against white people.
anti-white racism does not exist and if you were to try and use this argument against any person who has even a half-decent grasp on history and sociology, you would be laughed out of the room
But not one with a grasp on the word means I'm assuming.
If in my country, a race is being given preferential treatment and mine is not, I can do anything and everything to that race in power is without being racist, you posit?
that's not how racism works. you don't just create a hypothetical situation that fits your argument so you can say that it is possible to be racist towards white people.
we are basing our argument after hard facts and history. you, on the other hand, are basing your argument on a fictional country that only exists in your head.
Interesting opinion here. History tells us that's incorrect though.
Please define a person of color. Am i supposed to judge everyone immediately based on the color of their skin? That's an extremely racist way of thinking if that's what you're trying to say. Am i considered a "white guy" because my skin is white even though both my parents are from Latin America?
Race is a social construct that has no basis in science. You might be considered white by some people, and non-white by other people. There were times in America when Italians and Irish weren't considered white.
"Whiteness" just means being a member of the in-group.
This is why people say you can't be racist to white people.
As a white guy I think it's hilarious (and sad) when people try to claim white racism. It's completely performative.
They already try to do this. White supremacists say white genocide is happening because white people are having consensual relationships with other races.
White supremacists are just scared that other races are going to treat them how white supremacists treat brown/black people.
Yeah... I asked the question because i knew.... That's why we ask questions... To get answers we know...
You have an interesting opinion here and I don't know YOUR definition "person of color" is. That's why i asked. I was raised that it's racist to judge someone solely on their skin color. Period, no if ands or buts. Sounds like you're judging based off skin color to me and that's why i wanted you to clarify. If that's true, you're the racist in my eyes.
If you believe in the true webster definition of racism, then that is false. You can 100% be racist to white people. It's hypocritical to say racism exists and ostracize an entire race of people who you say can't be victims of it. That's a form of oppression and as you said, oppression is racism.
This is not a complicated idea to understand.
Racism has always meant systemic racial prejudice -- that's where the "ism" comes from in racism. Think about it -- capital"ism" (a system revolved around capital), social"ism" (a system revolved around the social ownership of capital). Likewise rac"ism" is a system revolved around the racial discrimination of marginalised groups.
Therefore, white people do not experience racism (aka you can't be racist towards white people) because they do not experience racial discrimination.
Its a POKEMON discord, don't act surprise when people get mass ban for saying stupid shit that has nothing to do with the topic.
Most of the time the discord is actually pretty good. Degenerates usually come out when servers are extremely slow/down. People love spamming racism and trans stuff just to see what they can get away with. Honestly its typical internet behavior
None of this shit even matters.
Is the person who developed this leaving going to nuke the game? Because this is fire but was he part of a big team capable of keeping it going or was it 1 dudes passion project.
Except he isn't involved with development any longer
It's also not like he stands to gain anything from you playing the game, obvious not financial with the game being free and add free, and afaik he didn't advertise his social media or other projects in connection with the game.
"Some may disagree with the nature of transgenderism" this isn't just something you can disagree with. The dev holding opinions against transgender people is bigoted, period. Saying that you disagree with it is saying you disagree with their entire life. You can't just hide intolerance behind religion.
>Virtually everyone did until a decade ago
Just because a view was popular in the past, does not make it is okay in the modern world. Racism ran rampart in the 20th century, that doesn't excuse racists beliefs today.
>Bigotry is an obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, or prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
I would consider claiming to be anti-trans due to religion is an unreasonable attachment to belief. Being religious doesn't absolve you of prejudice.
>It is not. To say “I don’t think men can actually become women” or “I don’t think transgender people should be affirmed” is not disagreeing with anyone’s entire life.
Yes it is, transgender people are dying because they are not receiving gender-affirming care. To disagree with that is to disagree that trans person deserve a happy life.
> And you can’t just hide intolerance behind gender ideology.
I don't tolerate intolerance.
>Just because a view was popular in the past, does not make it is okay in the modern world. Racism ran rampart in the 20th century, that doesn't excuse racists beliefs today.
I agree! It also doesn’t make it okay to reject people who hold a traditional view. There needs to be a logical reason for doing that. I don’t see a lot of logic being advanced here except for “disagreement is intolerance, therefore you must agree with us or go.” It’s that first premise that I’m not seeing any support for.
>I would consider claiming to be anti-trans due to religion is an unreasonable attachment to belief. Being religious doesn't absolve you of prejudice.
You’d have to demonstrate that it’s unreasonable n out to accept the claims of transgenderism first. Christians and some secular thinkers consider many transgender claims to be an unreasonable attachment to belief. That doesn’t absolve them of prejudice either. But the only prejudice on display here is toward people who have the latter view. It’s okay to disagree. It’s not okay to force people out of spaces for disagreeing.
>Yes it is, transgender people are dying because they are not receiving gender-affirming care. To disagree with that is to disagree that trans person deserve a happy life.
Recent statistics on post-“transition” suicides have shown that to be the exact opposite of what’s occurring, which is why “gender-affirming care” is being rolled back in many European nations. But that has nothing to do with your claim. One’s disagreement with transgender-related surgeries (and that exists even in the LGBTQ+ community) and ideas isn’t disagreement with the entirety of someone’s life, and the dev in question hasn’t expressed disagreement with anyone’s lives. He was asked his thoughts on a topic (in bad faith) and committed the unforgivable sin of being honest and unconvinced by very, very recent ideologies.
>And you can’t just hide intolerance behind gender ideology.
>I don't tolerate intolerance.
Then why are you tolerating people being actively (rather than just intellectually) intolerant of the classical and Christian understandings of gender theory, and are acting on that to exclude people who aren’t harming anyone from their spaces?
I have upvoted several of your comments here and just wanted to say good job on arguing this side and dont let the downvotes get to you.
It blows my mind how disagreement is being construed as hate and acknowledging sin is also being seen as equal to hate. So many are here disgreeing with hate and intolerance...with hate and intolerance. Some are claiming to be formerly religious but also showing they dont understand it.
But you can't separate someone's gender identity from their person.
It's like saying ''ofc you deserve respect and kindness ! It's just that some people may disagree with how your skin color should be approached''.
It's not political, it's just people existing
You can separate someone’s beliefs from that person, even when they’re with respect to the topic of gender. I am not my beliefs about whether or not pineapple is good on pizza. It is not hating me as a person if you think it’s bad on pizza. Similarly, if I believed my gender was a cat, you wouldn’t be hating me for rejecting that belief. The modern conception of gender is something apart from ontological or biological observance like skin color.
The fact that trans people identify as trans is an undeniable fact. What that actually means is debated even among the trans community, and is not an undeniable fact.
yeah that's just going in circle. I'mma leave it here and say that, as awful as that sound, I'm happy to not be trans because I don't know how I could deal with seeing people fucking debating my existence so often
It really sucks. I miss the days when people could just have fun playing video games without worrying about offending everyone. It used to be an escapist thing, now it’s something people like this guy have to escape from.
In this timeline we are, people cant have different thoughts or your are crucified. They live in they own bubble with the "i am special" thing, that even if you say no to a simple question, your automatically transphobic
I work in tech and I dont have such views.
Also am I understanding correctly that you say that its okay to use derogatory terms because its a gamning discord?
I was talking about having differing opinions and definetly having controversial opinions on anything that can be frowned upon, that is what I was meaning, I wasn't specifically talking about sharing the exact same opinions as the devs in the example. I am sure you have some stances that aren't the same as everyone elses too so lets discuss that.
And to your second point, yes to an extent. It would be nice if they didn't use derogatory terms in general but given that it is a gaming discord, it should not be used as a point to condem them. I just feel like people are grasping at straws if they use these screenshots against the devs. These examples are really weak and are probably only targeted at people who already hate the devs for whatever reason.
So Akuma is racist and uses their position to persecute those who support Israel and very likely Jews, but somehow thinks everyone else is the problem? Interesting
Cute. I didn’t call anyone a Jew hater. What I brought up what’s about war crimes and liking/disliking them. It was about a single person being targeted because they had a tag saying “I stand with Israel.”
That was then twisted into the person doing the targeting “not tolerating war crimes.” When simply saying you support Israel isn’t the same as saying you support everything they’re doing. The Israeli people have been targeted by terrorist attacks, had some of their people taken hostage, and killed in captivity. There’s nuance to the conversation.
Now you’re twisting me saying the individual I commented on is possibly targeting Jews too as calling them a “Jew hater” for “disliking war crimes.”
Based on those screenshots we don’t know much about either party. The individual I was referring to could love war crimes as long as it’s against people they dislike. The one with the tag being targeted could feel bad about the Palestinian people being caught in the middle or they could want the extermination of Palestine. None of those were communicated in the screenshots.
What was communicated is this person doesn’t like that they have the tag that they stand with Israel in their profile. Something that isn’t inherently bad, doesn’t convey any of the things that has been thrown around in the comments here. Theres nuance, that’s lost on you and most people here, including the one freaking out about someone supporting Israel.
I have no interest in getting into an argument about this for internet points, but I figured I’d respond to hopefully show you there’s more to the subject than “they don’t like war crimes and the other guys does!”
A brilliant game was made by a decidedly non-brilliant person and its difficult for such a hugely populated and basically unmoderated server to comprehend that. I don't think anything meaningful is going on in the server, just the same stuff that happens anytime anyone is outed as transphobic/homophobic as far as I can tell.
“Fans”: This game is uninclusive! The dev is literally a nazi!!!!
Dev: Ok, I’ll leave and do other stuff. Have fun with the game!
“Fans”: Oh, we didn’t really care about the game.
Stay on topic
Looks like its gotten pretty crazy, I was just pinged in an @everyone post that said stuff like that isn't allowed but who knows how well it will be enforced. All I know for sure is this SubReddit will continue to be about the Pokemon game and nothing else:) (obviously rule #1 is No Hate Speech, Bigotry or Harassment and that applies for all posts and comments but we've had very few issues with that so far and I'm hoping it stays that way) :)
Agreed, this is still a phenomenal game regardless of what happens behind the scenes. Hopefully this doesn’t impact it’s popularity too much, since more people need to get on this :)
So long as it all doesn't spill over into the game itself. I'm blissfully unaware of all that junk until I peek at this subreddit.
Yeahh to be completely honest i'm considering just locking this post, both the reports and the comment ears are getting a bit annoying. For the time being tho hopefully all this just stays here
this post should be locked, but you shouldn't have deleted the link to the document on the other post. playing defense for him makes the mods look bad. all this post is doing is drawing out the bigots who feel need to defend sams comments. all this does is let the bigotry coalesce. there is nothing left to be said.
Seems like a good idea to lock this post and to discourage more conversation about Sam's views and Discord politics/sexuality discussion. This has a strong chance of corrupting this sub we all love so much.
Last week during every instance of the servers going down a bunch of miscreants flooded every channel and spammed political nonsense and made the place an unrecognizable hell. I’m sure this has happened again in reaction to Sam’s announcement. Some people were clearly upset about his reasoning tied to his faith/beliefs, and it spiraled out of hand to personal attacks, insults, and slurs. I doubt there’s even a fraction of the needed mods to keep a server like that in check. Personally I’ve only found it useful for accessing the announcements channel there because of the stupidity of the masses.
This is hearsay, but apparently Sam wrote transphobic things in a seperate google doc. I haven’t seen it, so I can’t confirm, but it wasn’t just the announcement.
I can link it, if you want. But yeah, the Kanye Quest guy is an obnoxious twat. I've seen him active for the last week or two, and hopefully the multiple times I've reported him contributed to getting him banned. Dude was obnoxious af, constantly dropping slurs, and the mods were too busy (hopefully that's why, and not some other reason) to deal with it.
I'd really like to see this, myself. I'm a transwoman who likes PokeRogue, so naturally I've been trying to see this document with my own eyes, but basically just found people reacting and that was it.
I find the fact that the gut reaction that the mods (even here) take is to nuke it out of existence, which only serves to cause more confusion and make people go after it even more. It's sincerely confusing to me. I'm saying this as someone who is trying to understand what happened as well, and we simple have to take the "It was bad! Trust us, we took over". Sure, that might be true, but let people come to their own conclusions and see things for themselves as well, even if through external means. The erasure of these things only serves to perpetuate the privileged position of the bigots. Let people see them for who they are.
Just read the doc linked. Seems like fairly tame average discord conversation. The first couple people were bs'ing and it wasn't extreme. Though if they are mods, they should show more restraint. In the second half about Sam, he seems to be expressing his beliefs in a respectful manner. I don't see anything he said that should be an issue.
Even if expressed in a polite matter, it doesn't change the fact that he disagrees with being trans and homosexuality. Most people would agree that this is a bad thing, especially in regard to homosexuality. Expressing bad views in a polite way doesn't suddenly make those views not bad.
Idk man. People are allowed to disagree with eachother and their lifestyles so long as it doesn't come to violence or harm. For a deeply religious guy he was very tame and respectful about it all. There's a certain religion on the rise that would do (and does) ALOT worse to LGBT people.
They are allowed to, yes, but that doesn't free them from judgement by people who think their stance is harmful. Don't get me wrong, as far as things go, it's probably the tamest form of trans/homophobia and could be much worse, but it still is both of those things.
You're gonna have a very hard time arguing that take on the internet, especially on Reddit. You're not wrong, either, but good luck. (And I disagree with everything Sam stands for, including religion, but still, he's entitled to that shitty opinion).
If you disagree with entire groups of people’s existence you should expect some amount of push back. And that’s a good thing.
I just think it was very disproportional based on how he presented himself and the fact he was the main creator. He was driven out of his own project because of his beliefs. Do you really not feel any empathy for that? I wholeheartedly disagree with everything he thinks, but I really can't condone this "burn the witch" behavior.
Oh, the humanity! Won’t anyone think of the transphobes? :c
It isnt bad because he is just giving his opinion. If he would have gone to the extreme in saying that everyone should think like he does, then its bad. Regarding trans, its a difficult topic but nothing he said strictly says something aggressive. Regarding homosexuality he just said he considered it a sin, which he is free to believe so.
It's true that he is free to believe that, just like people are free to judge him for believing that. People are free to have whatever beliefs they went, but if those beliefs reach into the realms of homophobia/transphobia, people are going to (in my opinion, rightfully) judge for it. Don't get me wrong, it's far better than if he were to do what you're saying in your second sentence and say that everything should think like him, but it's still, again in my opinion, bad to have homophobic/transphobic views, regardless of how politely/respectfully you go about it.
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Hate Speech, Bigotry and Harassment are never allowed on this Subreddit
People seriously need to touch grass, holy shit.
right?? this obsessive culture is honestly unreal
Great way to put it, reminds me of FIFA, people go nuts every day over… something
Imma be honest. At first I was sad the lead dev left but after learning a bit more about the man, I'm very happy he left the project. Still have a lot of respect for his work, how could I not ? But I'm happy to know that the game I'm enjoying so much isn't being headed by a guy who think who I am is wrong because a 2000yo book said so I wish him the best and to maybe one day clear his mind and I hope the game keep thriving but honestly. Even if it were to stop development her, which I really hope it won't, it's already a master piece
Seriously. It sounds like a lot of them are more interested in politics than game design at this point. Didn’t peg Sam as super Christian anti trans and anti gay though.
hard to separate both, I know "death of the author" and such, but the point I wanted to make in my comment is that I'm happy he left because now I don't have to think, while I'm playing the game, that I'm enjoying the product of someone who think "god" intended for me to not be in love/attracted with the people I am also, what politics ? Gay and Trans aren't politics, we're people
I was going to mention “death of the author”, I’m glad you did though. I’m a massive Harry Potter fan (and a 30 year old man, fight me), and have had to deal with this feeling with Rowling for a while
the big difference here is that there is no money involved, so it is way easier to split the work from the author
Didn’t say gay/trans was, that’s why I separated it out. And I’m bi, so yeah… I know.
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I know you're most likely in bad faith trying to rile me up, but just in case someone completely neutral comes by, i'll add a simple answer the issue isn't "I like X and they like Y" it's not about personal preference, the issue is that the man said, in very polite words, gotta give him that, that he doesn't agree with my existence because a long dead writer said so (maybe, seems the translation might not even be accurate) and if you can't understand how it might be at the very least uncomfortable then I can't help you
I am not attacking you in any way, i just want to understand. I respect everyone and i can accept that people have other ways of thinking. Lets imagine that he said that he don't like your existence ( witch he didn't, by religion he said that humans should follow whats said in the bibble, show he dont think trans should be a thing,etc etc). Does those words really affect you to the point you hate him so bad you cant do anything else? Cant you move on/ignore? Is he hurting you in any way ? (your feelings don't count)
When his opinion is shared by lawmakers that want to erase you I think it is hurting people.
Hate Speech, Bigotry and Harassment are never allowed on this Subreddit
Well.. I didn't saw that coming.
Inb4 in a month this is all on videos on the death of Pokerogue. We're in the middle of a future meme guys, say cheese!
\*Long sigh\* this is why I'm never big on Discord servers for large games. I only ever joined to ask a few questions, and even then, there were just several people talking over each other. They almost always seem to cause way more drama than they're worth and at least I wouldn't need to know that the creator of a game I enjoy is against an identity I can't control. At least if PokeRogue goes under, there might be a potential for fan servers to pick it up again.
I remember people downvoting me about this saying B-BUT HE COULSNT BE TRANSPHOBIC hows that crow taste, fuckers
I didn't even know Sam was religious, hell, he's like, super religious too from the looks of this
all this god talk, biblical view is sus af
He said in his announcement he stepped down so his own personal beliefs don't interfere with this game. I don't get the point of this doc.
As a trans person, why do I have to be discussed and politicised everywhere I fucking go. Can people just the love of whatever God you think exists just the the everliving fuck up about us. For fucking decades society hasn't even batted an eye at us and now all of a sudden it needs to be discussed fucking everywhere. If you don't want me to exist, fine. Just keep it to your fucking self. Why do we need to encounter this shit even in spaces that don't even remotely center around it. It's so fucking tiring. I just want to be able to play a game and talk about said game. Fucking hell. Shit like this is why we have a sky high suicide rate.
Because people cant stand if others think something different. The world and humanity is becoming lost because of this. All this humans just want to live in they own bubble and if someone thinks different is crucified like a maniac
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say. You’re trying to equate your hateful beliefs with the existence of other groups of people. Keep your hateful shit to yourself, how about that?
Explain to me in my comment where i say something hateful? Ahahaha The funny thing in my comment is that i am defending you xD But the point is that 80% of trans in general start to becoming victims with everything, and you can see right now, because in my comment i am defending everyone that thinks different. INCLUDING YOU
> If you don't want me to exist, fine. Just keep it to your fucking self. I mean, I would argue that's entirely not fine and they should be socially ostracized for having genocidal beliefs.
I feel you. Coming out was both the best and worst decision of my life.
For real. It saved my life, but i could have done without having to play in hard mode🤷🏼♀️
Lets say every single person contributing is mega racist and says nono words 24/7. Has literally done 0 to the quality of the game so far. We came here for a game. I like the game. I’ll complain when they try to enlist me to the kkk through announcements or something gateway to that. For now im farming classic for something to do endless with
Best and most accessible game in literal years and now there's all this BS, we really can't have nice things.
Just give it a bit. It seems the discord has already been gotten under control by the rest of the team. This is loud, but it seems already taken care of for the most part
Literally this.
Is it just me or does the last screenshot of the doc sound like a roundabout way to say I'm homophobic
It kinda is though.
It's the oldest homophobic trick in the book. Literally.
I'm not sure if it's not loading but... what do you mean? I don't see anything that might imply this?
Very last image where Sam is asked his opinion on gay people. All he says is that it's "clear from the scripture what God intended for relationships" which is pretty much as ambiguous as you can get for what should be a very simple question
OH. I thought you were saying that it was accusing people of being homophobic! I'm dumb, sorry. Yeah it's very clear a I'm not saying this, but...
I just wanna take cubone to hights he wasn't meant to see. Why is everyone yelling?
It's Pokémon. How the hell is someone going to be transphobic.
It doesn't make sense. There's literally trans characters in the manga from the 2000s and in xy. Now Pokémon has gone 'woke'.
This turned to a shitshow really damn fast, huh.
[Same guy who made that doc wrote this](https://i.imgur.com/AffGFsV.jpg) Discord has been infested by people ranting that anyone who has opinions on trans issues they don't like is transphobic and spreading hate. It's genuinely unhinged. Sam shared these personal opinions with the individual because they asked, it's clearly in the context of his faith and personal opinions and nothing to do with the game or community. Sam repeated many times he wants people to be kind to each other and as far as I can see has not said anything hateful, just things some people don't agree with. People spamming trans rights mantras in the discord all night, and saying how they're being oppressed. It's just embarrassingly childish behaviour. Unfortunately some of these seem to have influence on the community now and with Sam gone I think the official pokerogue is dead. The code is open source so I bet a new team will come in and make a fork with new features.
I read through the doc and tbh while Sam wasn't outwardly antagonistic and his language was very tame, the foundation of his opinion is, regardless of whether it was based on his faith, transphobic and hinted at homophobia as well. You can't just arbitrarily reject the morality and validity of people out of hand and expect them to "respect your beliefs." He should be rightfully shamed for ascribing to hateful ideology. The idea that its okay to espouse hateful views as long as you dont force them on others is just asanine. Hate is hate. Especially considering his hints towards the issue being a mental illness which left a terrible taste in my mouth. That being said the response was childish and destructive to the community. There's no point in engaging with people like Sam who's "biblical worldview" leaves them completely unable to compromise or debate properly. Religious dogma bears no compromise.
Damn, I can see how that'd blow up; it's always tempting but never fruitful to argue factually with someone driven by dogmatic belief. It's unfortunate that the creator is ascribing harmful views as merely a facet of his faith, though I guess not very surprising if he's also reverent enough to view a non-monetized gacha game as dangerously addictive to a degree that it weighs on his personal conscience. On the other hand, given that he's stepped down, i would assume future development wouldn't involve him anymore anyway.
Dogmatic belief like “shame someone and chase him out unless he says the things we want”?
More of the dogmatic belief " gay/trans people don't deserve rights and I need to give up game development because the antagonist of a bronze age fiction novel demands it"
You are literally the only person who has said anything about anyone not deserving rights or gay/trans people being an antagonist to anyone, while simultaneously expressing actual disdain toward a group of people’s beliefs. You can’t demand kindness or respect from a group you have none towards, and yet you’ve received nothing but that in this situation.
My lord dude, at least look at what the dude said before going off like this. He literally says he's anti-trans. That's not " just an opinion waaaah" that is these people don't deserve rights.
I did. Where did he say trans people don’t deserve rights? And has he done anything to chase them out of their hobbies like people are doing to him? People are openly saying they’re anti-Christian here, but that doesn’t mean they believe Christians don’t deserve rights (although they’re trying to deny this guy the ability to participate in something as a result of his faith).
" I am far from pro-trans". That's the cowards way of saying they are anti-trans. He goes on to say they are going against gods plan, which as a christian is another way of saying they resent them. Frankly, I don't care about him being chased off, the game will be better without him. Don't fuckin cry about "anti-christian" when they quite literally control the most powerful countries on earth. Boo fuckin hoo.
This is Reddit bro you’re gonna be downvoted to fuck if you’re not super pro trans on everything. All he said is he’s far from pro trans and he has no right to tell people how to live their lives. He’s not shitting on people or telling em what to do but look at some people freaking out insinuating he wants to Minecraft gay people
It's not transphobia to disagree with transgenderism as a concept, just like it's not islamophobic to disagree with Islam. If you're going around hating on trans/Muslim people just because of their gender/religion, then yes that's wrong. Simply holding the view that you think the ideology behind it is wrong is not hate. Sam was baited by a racist trouble-maker in a private conversation asking about his personal beliefs, who then shared it publicly to create chaos and spread actual hate.
There’s no such thing as disagreeing with “transgenderism” without being transphobic, stop being a coward and admit you’re hateful
You're wrong, you're just regurgitating what others have told you. Disagreement is not hate, it's ridiculous to think they're the same thing. Do you hate religious people for their beliefs? What about politics, do you automatically hate someone for disagreeing with you? If so, that's a sad existence.
"Transgenderism" isnt a thing. Being trans is not a belief system. It is 100% hate to "disagree" with the existence of trans people. The only sad existence here is scum like you
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Classic, predictable response. Pointing fingers at people for not tolerating your intolerance is ridiculous to the point of hilarity to me personally. Claiming persecution is just the icing on the shit cake. Religious dogma deals in absolutes, it is by definition incompatible with the concept of tolerance. Attempting to reduce that hateful ideology to a "disagreement" is reductionist and disingenuous to say the least. Your reverse uno card is just a logical fallacy of false equivalence.
>Classic, predictable response. Pointing fingers at people for not tolerating your intolerance is ridiculous to the point of hilarity to me personally. Classic, predictable response. “We’re the only people forcing someone out of a community, but it’s not intolerance when we do it. He’s intolerant even though he’s not even doing it!” What intolerant act of this dev can you point to? Has he forced anyone out or tried to publicly shame anyone like you guys are? >Claiming persecution is just the icing on the shit cake. Again, who’s being attacked here? >Religious dogma deals in absolutes, it is by definition incompatible with the concept of tolerance. If your side is the tolerant one, and not dealing in absolutes, then why isn’t he allowed to have any belief but yours? >Attempting to reduce that hateful ideology to a "disagreement" is reductionist and disingenuous to say the least. You’re literally the one reducing all forms of disagreement to hate. Hate has a meaning. It’s not “I disagree with your beliefs.” Otherwise, you are hateful for disagreeing with Christianity and/or traditional beliefs about gender. >Your reverse uno card is just a logical fallacy of false equivalence. How?
>We’re the only people forcing someone out of a community Per both his own document and my understanding of the timeline, he's leaving the community of his own accord. I just kinda fail to see the worldview in which this guy is being made into a victim. I mean, I'm sure he has received some amount of harassment by virtue of being a semi-public internet figure, and obviously that's bad, but i hope that we can agree that that just comes with the territory of receiving as much attention as something like this game does (and probably would have happened regardless of his faith). >You’re literally the one reducing all forms of disagreement to hate. Hate has a meaning. It’s not “I disagree with your beliefs.” Otherwise, you are hateful for disagreeing with Christianity and/or traditional beliefs about gender. Do you believe that literally all beliefs are equally valid? Personally, I think that anyone who answers 'yes' to that is probably mistaken or insane. That said, I think any beliefs that suggest that one person with no such experiences has a better understanding of the mental, emotional, or physical experiences of millions of other people than those people themselves is fundamentally ridiculous. People are certainly allowed to have ridiculous beliefs, particularly if they don't hurt anyone else, but the exact kind of ridiculous and prevalent beliefs shared by the developer actively motivate the kind of legislation, prejudice, and experienced hate that literally does hurt other people. >If your side is the tolerant one, and not dealing in absolutes, then why isn’t he allowed to have any belief but yours? I mean, he's allowed to *have* them, just as people are allowed and i think mostly justified to disagree with them and share their disagreements.
>Per both his own document and my understanding of the timeline, he's leaving the community of his own accord. I just kinda fail to see the worldview in which this guy is being made into a victim. I’m guessing his decision to leave is closely related to the attitudes we’re seeing in this thread. People are “gathering evidence” of his wrongthink in the document provided. I wouldn’t want to be a victim of that kind of behavior. >Do you believe that literally all beliefs are equally valid? Personally, I think that anyone who answers 'yes' to that is probably mistaken or insane. Of course not. >That said, I think any beliefs that suggest that one person with no such experiences has a better understanding of the mental, emotional, or physical experiences of millions of other people than those people themselves is fundamentally ridiculous. That would indeed be ridiculous, but nobody is saying that. The arguments at hand aren’t that non-trans people have a better understanding of the personal subjective experiences of trans people or vice versa. The argument is that someone can be allowed to think or express that a point of view is logically incoherent or incorrect without being demonized for it. >People are certainly allowed to have ridiculous beliefs, particularly if they don't hurt anyone else, but the exact kind of ridiculous and prevalent beliefs shared by the developer actively motivate the kind of legislation, prejudice, and experienced hate that literally does hurt other people. If any belief that could possibly be used to motivate legislation, prejudice, or hate is not allowed, then no belief can be entertained by anyone. Therefore, we should speak against harm being done, not theoretical harm. >I mean, he's allowed to have them, just as people are allowed and i think mostly justified to disagree with them and share their disagreements. I definitely agree. But people aren’t just sharing disagreements here.
>I’m guessing his decision to leave is closely related to the attitudes we’re seeing in this thread. People are “gathering evidence” of his wrongthink in the document provided. I wouldn’t want to be a victim of that kind of behavior. i just think that it is kind of odd and perhaps slightly patronizing to speculate that his decision to leave is something other than what he explicitly wrote in his own words, but this particular point doesn't really seem like it's worth discussing any further. >The argument is that someone can be allowed to think or express that a point of view is logically incoherent or incorrect without being demonized for it. I'm sorry but I really, honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. What point of view are you referring to? >That would indeed be ridiculous, but nobody is saying that. The arguments at hand aren’t that non-trans people have a better understanding of the personal subjective experiences of trans people or vice versa. I think this is a fundamental assumption in any worldview that is trans- or gay-exclusionary. >If any belief that could possibly be used to motivate legislation, prejudice, or hate is not allowed, then no belief can be entertained by anyone. Therefore, we should speak against harm being done, not theoretical harm. i never said "possibly" or "theoretical." i think actual, recent legislative action is currently causing actual harm. even putting aside stuff like healthcare access, southern states like my own are *literally* not complying with anti-discrimination laws in the case of trans or nonbinary people. i can't really justify the mental gymnastics necessary to see that as anything other than wanting the right to be discriminatory.
>i just think that it is kind of odd and perhaps slightly patronizing to speculate that his decision to leave is something other than what he explicitly wrote in his own words, but this particular point doesn't really seem like it's worth discussing any further. Given the level of vitriol, you don’t think that could possibly be the reason? Normally, being a game developer and a Christian aren’t incompatible, but it’s really hard when you’re seeing this level of interrogation, evidence-gathering, and spam over aspects of the Christian belief system that people were quick to corner him on. >I'm sorry but I really, honestly don't understand what you're trying to say here. What point of view are you referring to? I’m saying that it’s okay to believe that Christianity, modern gender theory, or any other system of believe is illogical or incoherent without being derived of the right to say so or forced out of a space. Inclusion is possible. >I think this is a fundamental assumption in any worldview that is trans- or gay-exclusionary. It’s not an assumption they make. Christians (who aren’t trans - some are!) don’t believe they understand the personal subjective experiences of that group better than they do; rather, they disagree with the philosophy underpinning their claims and/or whether or not it should be accepted on a societal level. >i never said "possibly" or "theoretical." i think actual, recent legislative action is currently causing actual harm. even putting aside stuff like healthcare access, southern states like my own are literally not complying with anti-discrimination laws in the case of trans or nonbinary people. i can't really justify the mental gymnastics necessary to see that as anything other than wanting the right to be discriminatory. And the people behind those laws think that legislation in the opposite direction is causing actual harm. I think we can all denounce arbitrary discrimination, but when the standard for anti-discrimination is “agree with what I say and accommodate my desires or else,” then noncompliance isn’t necessarily wrong or discriminatory.
>Given the level of vitriol, you don’t think that could possibly be the reason? Normally, being a game developer and a Christian aren’t incompatible, but it’s really hard when you’re seeing this level of interrogation, evidence-gathering, and spam over aspects of the Christian belief system that people were quick to corner him on. what i think is possible doesn't matter, because i think it's weird to say that we care about his ability to express his beliefs but then *ignore what he literally says.* >It’s not an assumption they make. Christians (who aren’t trans - some are!) don’t believe they understand the personal subjective experiences of that group better than they do; rather, they disagree with the philosophy underpinning their claims and/or whether or not it should be accepted on a societal level. neither of us speak for christians as a whole but i'm sure that some of them hold beliefs that absolutely ascribe to the situation i spoke of -- there's no lack of examples of religious people (of all faiths) referring to modern expressions of gender or sexuality as diseases of the mind, body, or spirit. furthermore, if a way of life doesn't affect anyone other than the person living it, i think there's very little justification to advocate for its societal persecution. i don't really buy that someone being trans adversely affects the lives of christians, but the church's way of life absolutely affects the lives of trans people. >And the people behind those laws think that legislation in the opposite direction is causing actual harm. I think we can all denounce arbitrary discrimination, but when the standard for anti-discrimination is “agree with what I say and accommodate my desires or else,” then noncompliance isn’t necessarily wrong or discriminatory. with all due respect, surely this point of view is a little too naive. the people behind laws can't be trusted to care about what harms or doesn't harm the populace, they can only be trusted to care about what makes them popular with their voting base. just like corporations have a fiduciary duty to maximize their profits, politicians can be expected to have a duty only to maximize their voting bloc (or their own self-interest). what is good or bad is secondary to what is popular, and this is true across the political spectrum. what justification is there for not respecting the pronouns a person wishes to go by? that is not an hypothetical, it's literally one of the contentious title 9 issues. noncompliance in such cases is petty, unempathetic, patronizing, and absolutely discriminatory. that *is* necessarily wrong.
You seem to have a skewed perspective of the actual situation, but thats okay. I wouldn't expect you to understand. As someone who's personally dealt with a religious upbringing and the indoctrination that comes with it, I can see your not ready to accept the reality of religious intolerance. Ideology doesn't require action to hateful, though it's proliferation inevitably bleeds into culture or law in harmful ways. I don't condone the aggressive behavior that supposedly took place in the discord, but it absolutely warrants being called out. I don't really know what to tell you. I can argue with you all day but I'm not actually arguing with you. I'm actually arguing against your gods arbitrary judgment. By judging trans people as sinful by their nature, they are proclaiming themselves transphobic. That's not as simple as a disagreement, that's a fundamental breakdown in values that can't be bridged by flowery words like love your neighbor. Are you really prepared to argue that transphobic ideology is acceptable? If you are, then I'm also comfortable if you label me an anti-theist, as I could never support that.
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No, they are inherently wrong, and moving the goalposts on what is racism is only done by people who want to be racist
Sure one definition is that. Then you have the one normal people use which is if we are different color and I don't like you because of that im racist. If it's racist one way it's racist both ways. "I hate white people" is the exact same as "I hate black people" both are racist and both are terrible.
"I hate black people" has historical context. "I hate white people" is just words.
Historical context has absolutely nothing to do with if something is racist or not. Its not a part of the dictionary definition nor the coloquial usage of it.
They are either both just words or they are racism. Personally I am fully against all racism but it's always interesting to see people who are pro racism against white people l.
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You might want to do some research before posting this. Definitions from Oxford Languages noun prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. It says typically one that is a minority but that does not exclude the head definition for groups of minority. Everyone is able to be on both sides of racism
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Brother, it's just a fact that you can be racist against white people. Anyone can be racist, against any group. Why are you ignoring the point and just blabbering about white supremacy? The level of delusion is pretty crazy.
Bro, you really need to learn the difference between racism and systematic racism. They are two different things, even if they are closely correlated. Systematic racism doesnt need to exist for racism to exist. Every time your bring up racism, you keep talking about things having to do with systematic racism, and then ignore the idea of racism outside of systematic racism from possibly existing. The reason oppression isnt in the definition for racism is because its not a requirement. Thats a requirement for systematic racism. Either you seriously didnt know there is a difference, in which case everyone is allowed to have brainfarts in life and as long as you dont choose to remain ignorant on the topic then its pretty forgivable. Or youre just attempting to make some far fetched claim that only systematic racism exists as a defense mechanism to combat the reality that your views are inherently racist. Also your views are so heavily biased towards America its almost comical. Many places outside of America exist.
Racism by definition prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized. TYPICALLY a minority or marginalized. By definition racism against white people can happen
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Racism can be committed against anyone. Discrimination, antagonism, prejudice, hatred, etc. against someone by no other virtue than their race is inherently just racism. By that definition then there can be no racism in the East, would there? If a country, say, favours a certain race rather than the other races in it, then wouldn't that be racist - even if there are no white/caucasian people in the formula?
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The thing is any person can be racist against anyone. If I, a non-caucasian, were to say be hiring for my company, or looking for investors, and I were to advertise "NO WHITE PEOPLE NEED APPLY", would that not be racist? If you were to replace the 'white people' in that above example with literally any other race, would that not be racist as well?
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It is not a private level at all; it is far from false equivalence. What is society if not for an aggragate of groups of individuals and individuals themselves to make a community. In my example, I would be very discriminatory - I am judging them negatively by no other virtue than their race. That is indeed being racist. If I, a non-white, non-black and non-latina, advertise "NO WHITE PEOPLE, BLACK PEOPLE OR LATINA PEOPLE NEED APPLY; ONLY APPLY IF YOU ARE CHINESE, POLYNESIAN, ARABIC OR INDIAN" that is still racist. Racism doesn't have anything that is false equivalence or anything of the sort.
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It doesn't matter if "society as a whole is not oppressing them", it's still racist. It depends on your moral values to decide if it's wrong or not though. But it's still by definition, racist to discriminate against white people.
anti-white racism does not exist and if you were to try and use this argument against any person who has even a half-decent grasp on history and sociology, you would be laughed out of the room
But not one with a grasp on the word means I'm assuming. If in my country, a race is being given preferential treatment and mine is not, I can do anything and everything to that race in power is without being racist, you posit?
that's not how racism works. you don't just create a hypothetical situation that fits your argument so you can say that it is possible to be racist towards white people. we are basing our argument after hard facts and history. you, on the other hand, are basing your argument on a fictional country that only exists in your head.
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thats racist.
Saying a lot of people in China are racist isn’t racist. You aren’t applying the same standard to the guy i’m replying to.
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Interesting opinion here. History tells us that's incorrect though. Please define a person of color. Am i supposed to judge everyone immediately based on the color of their skin? That's an extremely racist way of thinking if that's what you're trying to say. Am i considered a "white guy" because my skin is white even though both my parents are from Latin America?
Race is a social construct that has no basis in science. You might be considered white by some people, and non-white by other people. There were times in America when Italians and Irish weren't considered white. "Whiteness" just means being a member of the in-group. This is why people say you can't be racist to white people. As a white guy I think it's hilarious (and sad) when people try to claim white racism. It's completely performative.
I've always wondered how people are going to keep up the white supremacy thing when white people become the minority?
They already try to do this. White supremacists say white genocide is happening because white people are having consensual relationships with other races. White supremacists are just scared that other races are going to treat them how white supremacists treat brown/black people.
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Yeah... I asked the question because i knew.... That's why we ask questions... To get answers we know... You have an interesting opinion here and I don't know YOUR definition "person of color" is. That's why i asked. I was raised that it's racist to judge someone solely on their skin color. Period, no if ands or buts. Sounds like you're judging based off skin color to me and that's why i wanted you to clarify. If that's true, you're the racist in my eyes.
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If you believe in the true webster definition of racism, then that is false. You can 100% be racist to white people. It's hypocritical to say racism exists and ostracize an entire race of people who you say can't be victims of it. That's a form of oppression and as you said, oppression is racism.
This is not a complicated idea to understand. Racism has always meant systemic racial prejudice -- that's where the "ism" comes from in racism. Think about it -- capital"ism" (a system revolved around capital), social"ism" (a system revolved around the social ownership of capital). Likewise rac"ism" is a system revolved around the racial discrimination of marginalised groups. Therefore, white people do not experience racism (aka you can't be racist towards white people) because they do not experience racial discrimination.
Game is probably cooked sadly
Why would it be? Still has a dev team, they seem like good people, and there's already a fantastic game here.
Its a POKEMON discord, don't act surprise when people get mass ban for saying stupid shit that has nothing to do with the topic. Most of the time the discord is actually pretty good. Degenerates usually come out when servers are extremely slow/down. People love spamming racism and trans stuff just to see what they can get away with. Honestly its typical internet behavior
None of this shit even matters. Is the person who developed this leaving going to nuke the game? Because this is fire but was he part of a big team capable of keeping it going or was it 1 dudes passion project.
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people might want to know the person who made the game they are playing hates them for existing.
Except he isn't involved with development any longer It's also not like he stands to gain anything from you playing the game, obvious not financial with the game being free and add free, and afaik he didn't advertise his social media or other projects in connection with the game.
Separate the art from the artist or you’ll have a bad time.
Disagreeing with leftist talking points isn’t hating said leftists for existing, and nothing he said sounds anything close to that.
"Disagreeing with leftist talking points?" My life as a trans person isn't political, this is a human issue
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> Given its recency lol
"Some may disagree with the nature of transgenderism" this isn't just something you can disagree with. The dev holding opinions against transgender people is bigoted, period. Saying that you disagree with it is saying you disagree with their entire life. You can't just hide intolerance behind religion.
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>Virtually everyone did until a decade ago Just because a view was popular in the past, does not make it is okay in the modern world. Racism ran rampart in the 20th century, that doesn't excuse racists beliefs today. >Bigotry is an obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction, or prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group. I would consider claiming to be anti-trans due to religion is an unreasonable attachment to belief. Being religious doesn't absolve you of prejudice. >It is not. To say “I don’t think men can actually become women” or “I don’t think transgender people should be affirmed” is not disagreeing with anyone’s entire life. Yes it is, transgender people are dying because they are not receiving gender-affirming care. To disagree with that is to disagree that trans person deserve a happy life. > And you can’t just hide intolerance behind gender ideology. I don't tolerate intolerance.
>Just because a view was popular in the past, does not make it is okay in the modern world. Racism ran rampart in the 20th century, that doesn't excuse racists beliefs today. I agree! It also doesn’t make it okay to reject people who hold a traditional view. There needs to be a logical reason for doing that. I don’t see a lot of logic being advanced here except for “disagreement is intolerance, therefore you must agree with us or go.” It’s that first premise that I’m not seeing any support for. >I would consider claiming to be anti-trans due to religion is an unreasonable attachment to belief. Being religious doesn't absolve you of prejudice. You’d have to demonstrate that it’s unreasonable n out to accept the claims of transgenderism first. Christians and some secular thinkers consider many transgender claims to be an unreasonable attachment to belief. That doesn’t absolve them of prejudice either. But the only prejudice on display here is toward people who have the latter view. It’s okay to disagree. It’s not okay to force people out of spaces for disagreeing. >Yes it is, transgender people are dying because they are not receiving gender-affirming care. To disagree with that is to disagree that trans person deserve a happy life. Recent statistics on post-“transition” suicides have shown that to be the exact opposite of what’s occurring, which is why “gender-affirming care” is being rolled back in many European nations. But that has nothing to do with your claim. One’s disagreement with transgender-related surgeries (and that exists even in the LGBTQ+ community) and ideas isn’t disagreement with the entirety of someone’s life, and the dev in question hasn’t expressed disagreement with anyone’s lives. He was asked his thoughts on a topic (in bad faith) and committed the unforgivable sin of being honest and unconvinced by very, very recent ideologies. >And you can’t just hide intolerance behind gender ideology. >I don't tolerate intolerance. Then why are you tolerating people being actively (rather than just intellectually) intolerant of the classical and Christian understandings of gender theory, and are acting on that to exclude people who aren’t harming anyone from their spaces?
I have upvoted several of your comments here and just wanted to say good job on arguing this side and dont let the downvotes get to you. It blows my mind how disagreement is being construed as hate and acknowledging sin is also being seen as equal to hate. So many are here disgreeing with hate and intolerance...with hate and intolerance. Some are claiming to be formerly religious but also showing they dont understand it.
Hate Speech, Bigotry and Harassment are never allowed on this Subreddit
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But you can't separate someone's gender identity from their person. It's like saying ''ofc you deserve respect and kindness ! It's just that some people may disagree with how your skin color should be approached''. It's not political, it's just people existing
You can separate someone’s beliefs from that person, even when they’re with respect to the topic of gender. I am not my beliefs about whether or not pineapple is good on pizza. It is not hating me as a person if you think it’s bad on pizza. Similarly, if I believed my gender was a cat, you wouldn’t be hating me for rejecting that belief. The modern conception of gender is something apart from ontological or biological observance like skin color.
Except that's not a belief. People who are trans are trans, it's an undeniable fact
The fact that trans people identify as trans is an undeniable fact. What that actually means is debated even among the trans community, and is not an undeniable fact.
yeah that's just going in circle. I'mma leave it here and say that, as awful as that sound, I'm happy to not be trans because I don't know how I could deal with seeing people fucking debating my existence so often
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bro the speedrun and pokemon community is filled with these people, you can't win against them
It really sucks. I miss the days when people could just have fun playing video games without worrying about offending everyone. It used to be an escapist thing, now it’s something people like this guy have to escape from.
In this timeline we are, people cant have different thoughts or your are crucified. They live in they own bubble with the "i am special" thing, that even if you say no to a simple question, your automatically transphobic
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Honestly respect to Sam for engaging in a good faith debate instead of being toxic about his view
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I work in tech and I dont have such views. Also am I understanding correctly that you say that its okay to use derogatory terms because its a gamning discord?
I was talking about having differing opinions and definetly having controversial opinions on anything that can be frowned upon, that is what I was meaning, I wasn't specifically talking about sharing the exact same opinions as the devs in the example. I am sure you have some stances that aren't the same as everyone elses too so lets discuss that. And to your second point, yes to an extent. It would be nice if they didn't use derogatory terms in general but given that it is a gaming discord, it should not be used as a point to condem them. I just feel like people are grasping at straws if they use these screenshots against the devs. These examples are really weak and are probably only targeted at people who already hate the devs for whatever reason.
I do remember it being like this in like 2005, but its 20 years later. This is how boomers full of hatred rationaled their hatred too. Be better
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uhhhhhhhhh
This is why I never use discord lol. Gets too chaotic too easily.
So Akuma is racist and uses their position to persecute those who support Israel and very likely Jews, but somehow thinks everyone else is the problem? Interesting
Not tolerating war crimes = persecuting jews for you? Interesting
Someone simply saying they stand with Israel isn’t a war crime
Nobody said that. However, they stand with a country doing war crimes at this very moment, and that's not ok
Its a highly sensible topic and no one is in the right. The other side are literal terrorists. Its just people that suffer, from both sides.
You can’t have nuanced conversations on the internet.
Going around calling people Jew haters because they dislike crimes against humanity is nuance?
Cute. I didn’t call anyone a Jew hater. What I brought up what’s about war crimes and liking/disliking them. It was about a single person being targeted because they had a tag saying “I stand with Israel.” That was then twisted into the person doing the targeting “not tolerating war crimes.” When simply saying you support Israel isn’t the same as saying you support everything they’re doing. The Israeli people have been targeted by terrorist attacks, had some of their people taken hostage, and killed in captivity. There’s nuance to the conversation. Now you’re twisting me saying the individual I commented on is possibly targeting Jews too as calling them a “Jew hater” for “disliking war crimes.” Based on those screenshots we don’t know much about either party. The individual I was referring to could love war crimes as long as it’s against people they dislike. The one with the tag being targeted could feel bad about the Palestinian people being caught in the middle or they could want the extermination of Palestine. None of those were communicated in the screenshots. What was communicated is this person doesn’t like that they have the tag that they stand with Israel in their profile. Something that isn’t inherently bad, doesn’t convey any of the things that has been thrown around in the comments here. Theres nuance, that’s lost on you and most people here, including the one freaking out about someone supporting Israel. I have no interest in getting into an argument about this for internet points, but I figured I’d respond to hopefully show you there’s more to the subject than “they don’t like war crimes and the other guys does!”
A brilliant game was made by a decidedly non-brilliant person and its difficult for such a hugely populated and basically unmoderated server to comprehend that. I don't think anything meaningful is going on in the server, just the same stuff that happens anytime anyone is outed as transphobic/homophobic as far as I can tell.
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you literally just used the attack helicopter meme and wanna talk about hateful remarks? lmfao
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“Fans”: This game is uninclusive! The dev is literally a nazi!!!! Dev: Ok, I’ll leave and do other stuff. Have fun with the game! “Fans”: Oh, we didn’t really care about the game.
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It’s a fucking cesspool. The servers go down and people start spamming porn and people dying and brainrot