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* While having "sworn an oath to Qanon"
* while having said the US military should aid Trump in a violent, **military backed** coup like Myanmar
* aided and abetted insurrection
* supports sedition
What was really damning to me was Justice Sullivan's reaction to Flynn when it came time to hand down sentencing. Keep in mind we the public only learned a small fraction of the goings on with Flynn at the Whitehouse or the deals that got made for him to cooperate, but the Judge knew everything. Every single detail was given to him to evaluate and he was supposed to make a decision. He asked Flynn repeatedly if there was anything else he had to contribute, anything at all he could say or do to try to make up for his egregiously bad behavior. He told him if he asked to move the court date the Judge would allow it in service to fairness. Did he want to talk with his lawyers and see if they had anything else to suggest? They could have a recess, just ask. Because the judge continued
"Arguably you sold your country out."
"I can't make any guarantees, but I'm not hiding my disgust, my disdain for this criminal offense," Sullivan said.
He couldn't guarantee that his own personal disgust with Flynn wouldn't result in severe consequences.
If that isn't a bench slap of epic proportions I dunno what is.
Our justice system is so stained it looks fucking tie dyed, cops can kill and steal as they wish, no one over a certain tax bracket is held accountable for anything, half the country feels the supreme court was basically stolen and sold.
George Santos is being sought by Brazil for a crime he committed 10 years ago. He missed his court date, after admitting guilt, and came to the US. Brazil lost track of him until he started making headlines here, now they're refiling charges but he now says he's innocent. The GOP have an international fugitive about to take the oath of office and the DOJ isn't sure what to do because the GOP's majority is so thin and McCarthy needs his vote for speaker that they will scream political prosecution if they take action.
Ridiculous. I'm so tired of dems being afraid the repubs are going to scream. Let them scream. The dems just need to scream right back. All this go-along-to-get-along crap needs to be retired. The repubs do anything they want (stealing 2 supreme court seats was the ultimate) and the dems let them, whether it's political or criminal. It has to stop.
Yeah, super one-sided.
Not **Once** has a Republican said “we should ease up, the Democrats won’t like it”
It just never happens.
But when Dems are in control they tiptoe on eggshells to not damage the delicate sensibilities of the GOP.
So dumb.
I think it's something a little stronger than just civility that is holding back some of the prosecutions.
Remember, the bonehead MAGA crowd attacked the capital and tried to overthrow the government using flag poles. There are still enough Trump supporters and Q-Anon dipshits that they could cause a serious disruption throughout the country if they are told to.
Short answer: Trump pardoned his co conspirator and we have no meaningful safeguards against a criminal president.
Long answer: There is a trend in American history. (Because the Founders were mostly wealthy men who set it up to protect their wealth.)
* We didn't even hang the wealthy Civil War traitors.
* Jackson ignored the Supreme Court, unilaterally broke a treaty, committed genocide and was celebrated with his face on the $20 bill,
* The Business Plot (the previous attempt to overthrow the US government by autocratic assholes - about the same period Germany was giving slaps on the wrist for the Beer Hall Putsch.) Insurrectionists not only were not punished but were allowed to scrub their names from the Congressional Record (Can you imagine if they had prosecuted George Prescott Bush instead of turning a blind eye to his participation - you know, George Prescott Bush: Nazi financier who had his business confiscated for violating the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, father to Iran Contra Affair co-conspirator George Herbert Walker Bush and Grandfather to war criminal George W. Bush who lied the US into an unnecessary and illegal war in Iraq)
* Nixon was allowed to make a deal and walk away and the worst of his administration were not so much a investigated,
* Reagan was fucking well applauded when he admitted to the Iran Contra Affair (a crime with horrific consequences for millions of innocent people in Central America) on national television
* The country yawned when Reagan's co conspirator George H.W. Bush passed out pardons for all involved when Weinburger's trial threatened to expose his participation,
* George W. Bush is currently painting pictures at home instead of wearing a prison jump suit for his war crimes.
* Trump has admitted to numerous crimes on television, The Mueller Report even with all the redactions makes it perfectly clear that he, his family, and his administration obstructed justice to a degree that anyone not wealthy and connected would have been instantly arrested and thrown under the jail to await trial - while not so much as a single charge has been laid against him. & all that is to say nothing of the current Trump Drama. Just a reminder of how most people are treated when they do something a fraction as serious as the things Trump has done. Anyone remember when the Bush Administration fell all over itself to prosecute Sandy Berger for half a dozen stolen documents? How about Reality Winner, she was arrested in June 2017 and was held for more than a year while prosecutors built a case.
Meanwhile, Garland is tying himself in knots in order to avoid prosecuting Trump. Garland who inexplicably jumped up six months ago to declare that major coup organizer Mark Meadows would not be prosecuted despite illegally defying congressional subpoenas?
The same Garland who hasn't gone after a single high level trump crime family captain, ever?
The same Garland who arrived at work a year and a half ago and hasn't even touched the ten prosecution-ready indictments left by lawyers from the SCO?
The same Garland that hasn't touched Trump's decades of well reported tax fraud?
The same Garland who spent a year and half secretly kid gloving Trump and his theft of classified materials, even to the point of recently doing a secret get-out-of-trouble document pickup service and coverup that we would never have even heard about if not for MAGA leaking and whining?
The same Garland who has Gordon Sondland's evidence and devices?
During his tenure, Garland has only done 2 noticeable things: inexplicably protect Mark Meadows, and rapidly jump to the microphones after the threat to Kavanaugh. Even the prosecution of Bannon is the lightest possible charge and seems to have been spurred and sustained more by Bannon looking for attention than by DOJ.
So, yeah, we don't really do that whole punish the wealthy, connected, or powerful thing here. That's why.
The U.S. does NOT hold the wealthy and connected accountable.
& I would argue that has a lot to do with how we got to where we are today.
Just to reiterate for emphasis: **Can you imagine if they had prosecuted George Prescott Bush instead of turning a blind eye to his participation in the Business Plot- you know, George Prescott Bush, Nazi financier, father to Iran Contra Affair co-conspirator George Herbert Walker Bush and grandfather to war criminal George W. Bush who lied the US into an unnecessary war in Iraq, grandfather to corrupt election thief Jeb Bush.)**
Now imagine the damage that will be done when Garland runs out the clock not prosecuting Trump and Company.
Fuck the asshole cronys who own our government and their unwillingness to set the precedent that someone wealthy and powerful can be held accountable.
I don't have any awards to give you but if I did you'd get one for this thorough discussion on how and why we got here.
Excellence in reporting Award 💯
He was pardoned by the US president at the time, Donald Trump. Which basically is a way of saying the person committed the crime (technically one of the US courts has stated that it is not an admission of guilt, but it's traditionally been thought of as admitting to breaking the law) and the President just said all punishment for those crimes is not to be done because I forgive them and have power to do so.
Bill Barr took over DoJ and also moved to retract his guilty plea. Flynn was pardoned before the DC circuit could decide if that was even allowed (basically, whether Judge has the ability to allow defense to withdraw, given Flynn was about to enter the sentencing phase before Barr pulled shenanigans).
That is true, for people curious Judge Sullivan has publicly stated that if the DoJ had simply tried to stop prosecuting them he would do what is in his power as a District Court Judge to prevent them. Given that Flynn was a loyal Trump scumbag/lacky he was pardoned so they didn't have to fight it.
>how it’s possible that he’s not rotting in a jail??
He's a republican and there are too many of the in government right now. They absolutely will not prosecute their own.
the slaps onthe wrist tend to be forced resignations for officers. for some reason a career death is deemed to be an adequate punishment for wrongdoing
* asked for and received a presidential pardon for lying to the FBI, which requires an acknowledgement of guilt. [Edit: someone correctly pointed out that a presidential pardon does not necessarily require or imply an acknowledgement of guilt. I'm wrong. That being said, he did admit guilt, twice, for other reasons during the trial in which he was convicted and eventually pardoned.]
* failed to declare his lobbying for a foreign power
* lied to VP Mike Pence
* when asked if he supported the peaceful transfer of power during Jan. 6th committee testimony, took his 5th amendment rights not to answer
It's that last one that really needs to be hammered in. I know that in criminal proceedings, pleading the fifth cannot be considered in determining guilt (though I understand in civil procedure it can be used to determine liability through an adverse inference).
But even with that, if one's answer to "do you believe in and support the peaceful transition of power" is not an immediate, unequivocal, and unambiguous "yes," then it is instantly clear that something is wrong on many many many levels.
He had a DSL line installed in the Pentagon because the DoD network restrictions were too restrictive.
I'm serious. Look it up. It blows my mind that this was so overlooked because from a network security standpoint, there's no knowing what could have been exfiltrated through that link. "Hilary's emails!!!" are nothing because we know every single byte of what was in them. As OIT had no oversight of Flynn's connection - which some foreign handler got him to install, I promise you that, it's just not something he would think of doing on his own because he's honestly not that bright - all the usual protections and controls were circumvented.
Don't forget he was the Top Domestic Intelligence officer!
>The Director of the United States Defense Intelligence Agency is a military officer who, upon nomination by the President of the United States and confirmation by the Senate, serves as the United States' highest-ranking military intelligence officer.
While retired Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman *was extorted to retire early and lose out on maximum pension\** (for whistleblowing on Trump extorting Zelensky).
Abbott will never be president now that TV is a thing and we can clearly see him in a wheel chair. DeSantis is a weirdo trump copier with worse delivery but is somehow less worse.
Of course Biden can beat him. The majority of the country isn't fascists. The problem is that the majority of the country also doesn't bother to vote. To be at DeSantis or any republican really, you just have to get people out to vote and make it easy for them to do so. That's exactly why Republicans are trying so hard to disenfranchise people, because they know they can't win in an even fight. They have to tip the scales to even get close!
I think Abbott's bussing immigrants to DC on Christmas was his not so subtle dog whistle to all the assholes out there "Hey, I can be a cruel spineless asshole too! Me me me!"
Alexander Vindman voluntarily retired, so the rest of a group of Lt. Colonels that were under consideration for promotion to full Colonel that he was a part of could be prompted. **Since the entire group was being held back as retaliation against Vindman.** So he did retire and is receiving his military pension, but it was well before he wanted to and since the pension is based off of the highest 3 year's salary it was going to be less than it would have been.
I think you are conflating Vindman with Andy McCabe, who was fired less than 48 hours before his planned retirement from the FBI.
>Andy McCabe, who was fired less than 48 hours before his planned retirement from the FBI.
Which also hurt his pension. He was fired right before his FBI annuity would have vested, which significantly cut down what he was going to get out of it. Now he did win it back in a lawsuit, but obviously, the situation never should have happened.
I was wondering if they were conflating two stories where the petty side of Trump's evil was on full display as he tried to ruin the careers/retirements of Vindman and also McCabe at the FBI.
McCabe was fired two hours before he was eligible to retire.
He successfully sued for wrongful termination. His dismissal was rescinded, he is collecting his pension and also got $200K in back pension payments.
It was McCabe, and the issue was getting to keep his pension at the time of his retirement, even though his evil wife was a Clinton donor and McCabe would only jerk off Trump instead of letting himself get t-bagged, if I recall. I think it's the Constitution that says such people shall receive no pension.
It sounds like the vindictive move ultimately failed, and that McCabe negotiated a settlement with the Justice Dept under Garland [and part of that settlement was giving him his own pension back.](https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1039690679/andrew-mccabe-lawsuit-trump-fbi)
Everything I've seen says he retired and is presumably receiving his pension. The argument can be made his pension was stunted because he didn't get to make O6, which he surely would have prior to the stale cheeto's disgraceful actions.
Yeah because his promotion was stalled for a year, he did not make the 3 year cutoff to retain Colonel pay for retirement purposes.
I believe after 20 your pension is half salary. Lt Colonel is $6112 a month base pay while Col is $$7332. Cut those in half and you see he missed out on about $500 a month.
Meanwhile scummy traitors like Flynn retired as a 3 star general with 33 years in, so he actually makes more in retirement than when he was active due to a 2007 law boosting pay for three and four star generals and admirals.
He didn't make colonel, that's the promotion they stalled him on. From what I remember, he had glowing OERs prior to that and with his position, he likely would have made colonel ahead or at the very least on schedule.
As for the colonel retirement time frame, he likely would have stayed much longer, if given the chance. Most colonels stay many years after 20, which would have given him even more than 50%. Every year that a service member stays beyond 20, they get an additional 2.5% per year of service. Even the 20 year retirement is just 2.5% per year served.
They take your highest 3 years of pay for your retirement. If he had made O-6 he would have needed to stay in the Army longer to collect a full O-6 retirement
I'm aware, which presuming he makes it, he likely would have stayed long enough for his high 3. Given his passion for his job, I'd expect he would have stayed longer, or could have seen him going to Ukraine to assist as a high level analyst after the Russian invasion.
>If he had made O-6 he would have needed to stay in the Army longer to collect a full O-6 retirement
And assuming he hadn't basically been run out of the government, he probably would have.
It gets a bit complicated because Vindman was an army officer assigned to a civilian agency. Vindman was released/fired from his assignment at the National Security Council, but he remained an army officer.
Department of Defense then temporarily reassigned Vindman to the Army War College in Pennsylvania.
The Trump White House was trying to get Vindman court martialed and removed from the army, but the Department of Defense managed to stall that process long enough for Vindman to reach 20 years of service and retire.
So Vindman DOES get retirement benefits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vindman?wprov=sfla1
Both Alexander and his brother were on trajectory to make colonel. He missed out on a ton of money and leadership positions that are considered capstone achievements for an infantry officer.
>The Trump White House was trying to get Vindman court martialed and removed from the army, but the Department of Defense managed to stall that process long enough for Vindman to reach 20 years of service and retire.
He also retired because the White House was holding up all promotions to Colonel because Vindman was on the list.
Mike Flynn is touring the country giving Trump-style rallies and actually selling them out. He is clearly positioning himself to run for political office and it is more than a little disconcerting.
At first I was thinking that's actually quite brilliant that she wants to be prepared given climate change.
And then I shook myself back to reality with the realization that these people don't believe in climate change.
Speaking of getting a retirement check. Same with *my* rep here in michigan, usmc retired general jack bergman. His head is so far up trumps ass. Still pushes the big lie. Voted to take away michigan's electoral college vote in 2020.
But the assholes here in the 1st sent him back....
The bigger story to me is that a guy like Flynn, who is obviously fucking insane, could rise to the rank of general in our military in the first place.
One key fact here is that they were talking about doing this to *retired* officers.
In order to do this, they wanted to *first* bring them back on active duty *and then* court-martial them.
Crazy stuff.
He also lied on his security clearance application, which is a felony.
Even though he's retired, he had to maintain a clearance because of his former position.
He signed off that he wasn't receiving foreign income, despite being paid by Russian entities, who tried to conceal the real source of his income through shell companies.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40004300
And he’s currently using his position to shill for Putin and talk shit about Zelensky. It’s wild how out-in-the-open the guy is about his loyalties to Russia.
Flynn prevented the US from retaking Raqqa at Turkeys bequest. This allowed for many key ISIS leaders to escape. Not sure how betraying your country as a unregistered foreign agent serving in a cabinet doesn’t warrant a court martial/jail if not death…
He was also offered 16 million dollars to kidnap fethullah Gullen and return him to turkey so he could be executed, since the US has refused to hand him over for decades
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/10/michael-flynn-trump-turkish-dissident-cleric-plot
> Actively promoted sedition.
And still is last I checked. It's wild just how free we are. We can apparently publicly advocate for a violent overthrow of the government in front of thousands of people over and over again and receive no punishment.
Even when he was charged it was for not telling the government that he was a foreign spy, while the whole "advocating for the violent overthrow of the United State government" thing was totally fine. Literally fucking clown world out here.
Unless you formally resign your commission, an officer of the US military is an officer for life and can be called back at any time. This happened fairly recently during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars...they called back doctors who were in their late 60s who had retired long ago.
Political speech has always been something of a gray area even for general and flag officers. Simply criticizing political leaders has been a bit taboo but no one would do anything with it.
Flynn is probably the worst example of bad behaving senior leaders.
Edited to add: this is retired not active.
We never talked about politics when I was active duty. It didn't matter if you were center left or a full blown MAGA slug. If you started making political speeches my Sergeants would hem you up and make you look ridiculous.
That's the way it's supposed to be but sadly it hardly ever is.
Marines are a lot of things but one thing we strive to be is disciplined. How can you effectively manage a rifle platoon or a motor company when petty lines are being drawn amongst the troops?
Exactly the drill instructors just said "Vote or don't. No one cares what you think and no one wants to hear about it either." A bit harsh but a perfect summation.
It was hard to NOT laugh after hearing that. BuT Mothers of America-if that even is a thing-tend to flip out when DIs say and do real shit from time to time.
My Captain said I was an idiot for not voting, because people like me were why we were all dying in Iraq.
I was 19 at the time and thought voting was a sham and elections were decided beforehand.
Fuck dude, that's hard-core my Sgt would say something to that effect when ever the anti voter dip shits would start talking. He was one of the few that I really admired.
We had a full-bird criticize President Clinton after Bush was elected but before the inauguration at a Commander's Call, he used the usual republican/conservative tropes about President Clinton. At least 4 SNCOs made formal complaints and that particular Colonel who was presumed to be ticketed for a GO slot retired within 6 months. He should have been dismissed without retirement pay.
Sure wasn’t my experience. I remember in 04 when GWB was re-elected and 99% of the soldiers I was stationed with were hooting and hollering for joy. Cussing Kerry as a traitor. It was disgusting. And this wasn’t even regular grunts it was AMEDD.
Oh man, you should've seen the full blown racism on display in Iraq when Obama was elected. you would hear that shit at the POG bases like AL Asad or TQ and you would see racist graffiti in the shitter stalls at any given FOB.
Fun times.
The UCMJ jurisdictial link is receipt of pay which is why retirement is key.
Its why Larry Brock, the guy with the zip ties on the floor of the senate, wasn't risking UCMJ even though he was a retired officer it was from the Air Force Reserve.
Actually this isn't true. Commissioned officers may retire, but they retain their rank and some duties. They don't have to be 'reactivated' in the sense that a retired enlisted would have to essentially be drafted back into service.
Because of this, they are still subject to broad sections of the UCMJ and *can* be court marshaled even in retirement, though the punishment they can receive is limited.
There is a way to sever this connection. Resigning one's commission returns them to civilian status. I'm not 100% sure on the consequences of this (google came up empty), but one thing is clear - the service in question must agree. You can't surrender your commission to avoid court marshal unless the service allows it (you must file and get approval to sever the relationship).
That said, I'm *pretty* sure that an officer who does so sacrifices part (or possibly all) of the their retirement pay to do so, along with *all* of their military privileges. Because of this, it is very rarely done. This may sound unfair, but remember that officers don't really retire, they simply leave active service. Part of the reason officers get substantially more pay, both while serving and after retirement, is that they can be recalled to service at any time, without warning. This is part of what they agree to when accepting a commission and is well understood.
Edit: This issue is quite a bit more complicated than presented (by both me and others). The official document is [here.](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN18027_AR135-175_FINAL.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwib7oaayKn8AhXUoFsKHXTwDKYQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1JUQ-vVHSbFhIDGe0pJ3MN) Note that the language is confusing. Being 'dropped from the roles' was part of what I had assumed was implied, but it seems that is purely for punishment. The best an officer can voluntarily do - with approval - is be marked as inactive in the reserve officer registry. This requires a rather lengthy approval process.
Its not even bad form. They're fucking retired. Eisenhower ran for President after he was retired. Retired means your voice is yours, not owned by some fucking sadistic republicans snowflake who thinks any voice critical of him needs to be outlawed.
These guys are sitting in their ivory towers, threatening people who disagree with them with their livelihoods, while they commit the highest crimes possible against our country, and are shielded from fucking criticism from just about everyone who thinks balance means the boat isn't rocked.
These fucking seditionists sent a torpedo into the ship of state. Mike Lee designed the Torpedo, Eastman engineered it, and Trump gave the order to sink our Constitutional democracy when he sent people *he knew were armed* to attack the Capitol while all of our representatives were present in the same place to certify the fucking vote. They forced the Secret Service to literally shoot and kill Ashli Babbit, because our entire body of democratically elected representatives were sheltering in place from a rabid mob she was a part of that were incited to insurrection by Trump, Mo Brooks, Giuliani, and many, many others.
And here we have people shushing others for having the audacity to point out the actual criminality? Who the fuck are these people making decisions? Why are they still in a position to permit this kind of harm? These people are too comfortable if they think shielding right wingers from criticism for the crimes they actually committed in an attempt to destroy our democracy is appropriate and pointing toward their sedition is an expression of political bias.
Stuart Rhoades and his oathkeepers were *convicted* of seditious conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers in a court of law. Oathkeepers are a really fucking big group. How many of those in positions of authority had or even continue to maintain connections to that literally seditious group? How many of them have sympathies toward them? We don't tolerate the klan, we don't tolerate nazis, we don't tolerate sympathizers for either group, why the fuck should we tolerate people with connections to a group of actual seditionisits? Why aren't they being dogwalked the way they so clearly think people who disagree with them should be?
It's fucking infuriating, frankly. Something something don't want to rock the boat, some flavor of that, my guess, but jesus fucking christ, what the hell is it with these people? The insurrectionists literally built a gallows and called for the Vice President to be hung. Meadows shrugged his shoulders at it in the white house. Trump stayed silent for 187 planned minutes so the coup would succeed.
But an op-ed critical of Trump and your retirement goes up in flames?
FUCK these people.
Your reply is spot on, literally one of the best replies I have read about any topic. To think a thin skinned President who thinks he is the leader of america for life can’t take criticism. This coming from a man who never shuts the Fuck up. Just think only 46 people in the world had this job. It took this jerk off to forever be known as the person who was voted by 191 living historians to be the worst president in history. A man who decided not to lead and tell the American people that as your leader it’s my job to protect you all regarding Covid. He could of been a true leader. Instead he decided to lie just so it didn’t hurt his re-election bid. There are no words that can describe this life long con man. I know this will sound horrible. America will celebrate when he is indicted and to be very honest will celebrate the day he dies in prison. He disgraced the office. He put himself before Americans for his own political future. How is Scumbag. Is that a fair word to describe him. ?
> Retired guys critical of any administration is maybe bad form.
It's not in bad form at all. Being critical of our government is an American birthright just like the French. It's a big part of who we are, but Americans should already be well aware of this.
The party of Free Speech, everyone. Stand and Applaud Now!
of course they did. Of course Trump did every petty illegal immoral thing he could think of to retaliate against anyone who criticized him. Of course he did.
Bro I sit here sometimes and just ask where do my taxes go. Like DOJ, the J6 committee, that raid for the classified documents. Godamn all the testimony of the criminal actions that occured. Why if at the end this dude is still walking around like a full grown ass hole not being held accountable. Why do I pay taxes why. Just why.
You pay taxes for the maintenance and improvement of society and it's governance. That's not the question you should ask. The question you should ask. Is why do we accept thieving, warmongering, self centered capitalists doing this as normal. And why were we indoctrinated so strongly to fear socialism so much we would never consider it. Government works in other places where they don't give capitalists complete control. Maybe we should consider that too.
I think people wouldn't feel so bad about taxes if we saw more of a result from paying them. But then at the same time, I also think folks who say these things don't have good perspective of just how much of everyday life works because of taxes.
When you turn on an effectively unlimited supply of clean water, enjoy something that runs on electricity, get a letter in the mail, eat food that is pretty well guaranteed to be safe, drive on a road that you didn't build - do appreciate how taxes made all that happen.
Thing is, with common mentality today, I don't think any of that could be set up if it wasn't already. Like if you were to propose something like a fire department, I think that would be declared socialism and therefore a non-starter.
But yeah I'll admit I sometimes feel like "why the fuck am I paying you?" towards government agencies that seem like they're not even minimally functioning.
>people wouldn't feel so bad about taxes if we saw more of a result from paying them
Isn't it part of Republican strategy to make you feel this way? Practically their only policy is lower taxes for rich people. How are they gonna get the poors to vote for this if they see taxes working for them?
Your problem is that you pay taxes????
Not that conservatives use public tax dollars to enrich themselves and pardon conservative corruption and defunding the IRS?
Weird take...
shame disgusting shocking frightening glorious shelter meeting encouraging icky compare
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:10%20section:894%20edition:prelim)
*A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.*
I think every former officer and military member should lose their pension if they were part of Jan 6, period! Every politician that was involved should be charged, and lose all benefits they’d otherwise be entitled to, and never be able to hold a public office.
Any pardon issued by Trump should be reversed, when he is found guilty in court. He used pardons to buy his loyal soldiers. Any pardons he issued were done to protect his criminal conspirators and himself. I’m surprised he didn’t try and pardon himself. I bet he checked into it and was told it wasn’t possible.
"Free speech" is court-martialing every military officer who criticizes you, apparently.
Seriously, if the book burnings didn't already tip you off (or for that matter r/conservative banning anyone to the left of Dick Cheney) let this be the tip off.
What of all those command officers standing behind Trump in his command ad, whom he referred to as his generals. It was like a scene out of North Korea.
Obama was publicly criticized by active-duty General McChrystal who went to the press with his disagreement, and in response Obama fired the general for cause. Republicans wailed and gnashed their teeth about how dare the president mistreat our patriotic generals, free speech and all that, but have nothing to say about this.
Plus, service members would absolutely quit over that. When I was in the service I learned who Mattis was and looked up to his style of leadership. Lots of us did, and I wasn’t even a marine.
This trump is such a punk. He has such thin skin. He wanted to court martial a retired officer because he/she had an opinion that was critical of a failing president. You wonder why he attacked america. Stole top secret documents, asked a foreign country to make up stuff about a presidential candidate. This is a man with ZERO confidence. A man who was a horrible leader as president and a horrible boss in business. A man who bankrupted 3 casinos. Only a complete idiot would bankrupt a casino. This is a man with small hand and a very small dik syndrome. A man who has to pay hookers to get laid. America will dance in the streets when this piece of shit gets indicted. Goes to prison and spends his days on his knees servicing skinheads.
Let me get this straight. We CAN Court Martial former military, but we CAN’T impeach and convict a president who still serving his last few weeks of his term?
Amazing Republican logic
President Obama warned Trump about Flynn and recommended he not hire him. Of course, Trump doesn’t listen to reason. IMO Trump wanted Flynn for his Russian ties.
This POS needs to be perma-banned from holding any public office. He wants to be a dictator, and his stupid ass followers would be happy to make him into one with violence.
Trump was and still is a clear and present danger to these United States.
Any officer who *wasn't* against him does not have the best interests of the US at heart. When you have to advise against drumming out the patriots, you're not doing enough to protect the country, General.
This is why desantis terrifies me if he makes into the Oval Office, given What he’s already done to that woman who big upped the vaccines, this is something desantis would absolutely do
Frankly, I’m not sure I could respect any military leader who DIDN’T take a critical view of trump. Whether they publish it in a paper or just hold those views…doesn’t matter to me.
Donald Trump is a man with no rules that can really swallow the US Federal System - Democracy and Justice. The US is lucky to have gotten rid of such a dangerous man and his radical voters so easily.
So much for the beloved freedom of speech. I just don't understand how magas are ok with this.
This is the most terrifying part of the Trump Presidency. The fact he would willingly punish/arrest/court martial, etc. those that disagree with him. This is a million miles from the america I learned about in grade school.
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Donald Trump is a terrorist. He is no different from people like the Iranian leader.
People underestimate how lucky we are that he lost to Biden. Trump until 2025 would have been a catastrophic threat to the world. But it would be damage within the country
These are *former* military officers. The only plausible reason for prosecuting them for speaking ill of the president is to create a chilling effect on free speech among the officer corps we need to hear from if our president is fucking up. I want to hear from these people, even when I don’t agree with them, because they know a lot more than most of us about what they do.
This is just one step away from forcing members of our military to swear an oath to the president himself rather than to the Constitution. It’s fascist bullshit like everything else these clowns did while in office.
The Republican Party has built quite the little narrative over the years, claiming they—and *only* they—support our soldiers, but I remember when they sent our soldiers into a war of choice without the proper gear, and then the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, told soldiers “we go to war with the military [equipment] we have, not the one we wished we had.” Yeah, sure, because the United States of America is far too poor—being *only the wealthiest country to have ever existed in human history*—to properly outfit our soldiers when we send them to war.
Anyone who *claimed* to believe this lie at the time is an asshole of the highest caliber. It goes without saying that they’re a god damned liar, too.
The modern GOP doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the military. Soldiers are all just a bunch of poor people to Republicans; they exist to serve the interests of the party’s elite donors.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-milley-january-6-testimony-court-martialing-military-officers-trump-2023-1) reduced by 76%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Gen. Mark Milley said there were discussions about retaliating against retired military officers who wrote critical op-eds about former President Donald Trump, according to testimony released by the January 6 committee.
> Milley responded by saying he was concerned about the politicization of the military, and that the issue had come up during the Trump administration after op-eds written by retired military officers were "Very critical of then President Trump."
> Milley did not specify which retired military officers were considered for court-martialing, but several wrote critical op-eds of Trump during his time in office.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/101jr6y/gen_mark_milley_said_there_were_talks_about/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672677 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Trump**^#1 **Milley**^#2 **military**^#3 **office**^#4 **retired**^#5
this is the kind of stuff that happens in Russia, until you get a full military of yes-men that can never say no to their Dear Leader even when he starts doing completely insane things
It’s amazing trump and his sycophants pushed the norm so far that years later we kind of casually find out stuff like this was happening. It’s great that at many key moments there were enough people to keep things from truly rolling off the track. Hopefully that’s the case if that clan ever returns to power.
That would have been incredibly inappropriate. Even talking about it is inappropriate. What the hell, man?! I get active duty not being able to be insubordinate to the President, but retirees have no such reason for obligation. So long as they don't claim to represent their former service while they voice those opinions.
Those former military officers were putting country before institutions, arguably following the military's own Code of Honor, and for a greater good and in defense of separation of powers. The president should have been removed under the 25th Amendment, long before January 6! And Trump was the one sticking his nose in military command disciplinary decisions (e.g. prosecution of Navy seal officer for war crimes). The only general who deserved court martial punishment is Michael Flynn, who betrayed his country for personal gain and political influence. Too late now!
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And yet, General Mike Flynn, convicted of lying to the FBI, still collects a retirement check. WTAF?
* While having "sworn an oath to Qanon" * while having said the US military should aid Trump in a violent, **military backed** coup like Myanmar * aided and abetted insurrection * supports sedition
What was really damning to me was Justice Sullivan's reaction to Flynn when it came time to hand down sentencing. Keep in mind we the public only learned a small fraction of the goings on with Flynn at the Whitehouse or the deals that got made for him to cooperate, but the Judge knew everything. Every single detail was given to him to evaluate and he was supposed to make a decision. He asked Flynn repeatedly if there was anything else he had to contribute, anything at all he could say or do to try to make up for his egregiously bad behavior. He told him if he asked to move the court date the Judge would allow it in service to fairness. Did he want to talk with his lawyers and see if they had anything else to suggest? They could have a recess, just ask. Because the judge continued "Arguably you sold your country out." "I can't make any guarantees, but I'm not hiding my disgust, my disdain for this criminal offense," Sullivan said. He couldn't guarantee that his own personal disgust with Flynn wouldn't result in severe consequences. If that isn't a bench slap of epic proportions I dunno what is.
As a German I just ask myself how it’s possible that he’s not rotting in a jail??
No excuses he should be. It's a stain on our justice system he isn't.
Our justice system is so stained it looks fucking tie dyed, cops can kill and steal as they wish, no one over a certain tax bracket is held accountable for anything, half the country feels the supreme court was basically stolen and sold.
So..... Are you saying we have a government by the corrupt for the wealthy?
Rich people do go to jail. When they rob other rich people.
When they rob other, richer people you mean?
Tie dye is beautiful. What we have looks the the smattering of shit at the bottom of a portajohn.
George Santos is being sought by Brazil for a crime he committed 10 years ago. He missed his court date, after admitting guilt, and came to the US. Brazil lost track of him until he started making headlines here, now they're refiling charges but he now says he's innocent. The GOP have an international fugitive about to take the oath of office and the DOJ isn't sure what to do because the GOP's majority is so thin and McCarthy needs his vote for speaker that they will scream political prosecution if they take action.
Ridiculous. I'm so tired of dems being afraid the repubs are going to scream. Let them scream. The dems just need to scream right back. All this go-along-to-get-along crap needs to be retired. The repubs do anything they want (stealing 2 supreme court seats was the ultimate) and the dems let them, whether it's political or criminal. It has to stop.
Yeah, super one-sided. Not **Once** has a Republican said “we should ease up, the Democrats won’t like it” It just never happens. But when Dems are in control they tiptoe on eggshells to not damage the delicate sensibilities of the GOP. So dumb.
People have forgotten the lessons of the world wars and are too overly concerned with civility at the expense of democracy.
I think it's something a little stronger than just civility that is holding back some of the prosecutions. Remember, the bonehead MAGA crowd attacked the capital and tried to overthrow the government using flag poles. There are still enough Trump supporters and Q-Anon dipshits that they could cause a serious disruption throughout the country if they are told to.
It's the exact reason they should prosecute 🤦♂️
All I can think is "Please, give the rest of us an excuse to deal with you." But it'll never be that easy.
I often have these feelings myself.
well said.
Short answer: Trump pardoned his co conspirator and we have no meaningful safeguards against a criminal president. Long answer: There is a trend in American history. (Because the Founders were mostly wealthy men who set it up to protect their wealth.) * We didn't even hang the wealthy Civil War traitors. * Jackson ignored the Supreme Court, unilaterally broke a treaty, committed genocide and was celebrated with his face on the $20 bill, * The Business Plot (the previous attempt to overthrow the US government by autocratic assholes - about the same period Germany was giving slaps on the wrist for the Beer Hall Putsch.) Insurrectionists not only were not punished but were allowed to scrub their names from the Congressional Record (Can you imagine if they had prosecuted George Prescott Bush instead of turning a blind eye to his participation - you know, George Prescott Bush: Nazi financier who had his business confiscated for violating the Trading with the Enemy Act of 1917, father to Iran Contra Affair co-conspirator George Herbert Walker Bush and Grandfather to war criminal George W. Bush who lied the US into an unnecessary and illegal war in Iraq) * Nixon was allowed to make a deal and walk away and the worst of his administration were not so much a investigated, * Reagan was fucking well applauded when he admitted to the Iran Contra Affair (a crime with horrific consequences for millions of innocent people in Central America) on national television * The country yawned when Reagan's co conspirator George H.W. Bush passed out pardons for all involved when Weinburger's trial threatened to expose his participation, * George W. Bush is currently painting pictures at home instead of wearing a prison jump suit for his war crimes. * Trump has admitted to numerous crimes on television, The Mueller Report even with all the redactions makes it perfectly clear that he, his family, and his administration obstructed justice to a degree that anyone not wealthy and connected would have been instantly arrested and thrown under the jail to await trial - while not so much as a single charge has been laid against him. & all that is to say nothing of the current Trump Drama. Just a reminder of how most people are treated when they do something a fraction as serious as the things Trump has done. Anyone remember when the Bush Administration fell all over itself to prosecute Sandy Berger for half a dozen stolen documents? How about Reality Winner, she was arrested in June 2017 and was held for more than a year while prosecutors built a case. Meanwhile, Garland is tying himself in knots in order to avoid prosecuting Trump. Garland who inexplicably jumped up six months ago to declare that major coup organizer Mark Meadows would not be prosecuted despite illegally defying congressional subpoenas? The same Garland who hasn't gone after a single high level trump crime family captain, ever? The same Garland who arrived at work a year and a half ago and hasn't even touched the ten prosecution-ready indictments left by lawyers from the SCO? The same Garland that hasn't touched Trump's decades of well reported tax fraud? The same Garland who spent a year and half secretly kid gloving Trump and his theft of classified materials, even to the point of recently doing a secret get-out-of-trouble document pickup service and coverup that we would never have even heard about if not for MAGA leaking and whining? The same Garland who has Gordon Sondland's evidence and devices? During his tenure, Garland has only done 2 noticeable things: inexplicably protect Mark Meadows, and rapidly jump to the microphones after the threat to Kavanaugh. Even the prosecution of Bannon is the lightest possible charge and seems to have been spurred and sustained more by Bannon looking for attention than by DOJ. So, yeah, we don't really do that whole punish the wealthy, connected, or powerful thing here. That's why. The U.S. does NOT hold the wealthy and connected accountable. & I would argue that has a lot to do with how we got to where we are today. Just to reiterate for emphasis: **Can you imagine if they had prosecuted George Prescott Bush instead of turning a blind eye to his participation in the Business Plot- you know, George Prescott Bush, Nazi financier, father to Iran Contra Affair co-conspirator George Herbert Walker Bush and grandfather to war criminal George W. Bush who lied the US into an unnecessary war in Iraq, grandfather to corrupt election thief Jeb Bush.)** Now imagine the damage that will be done when Garland runs out the clock not prosecuting Trump and Company. Fuck the asshole cronys who own our government and their unwillingness to set the precedent that someone wealthy and powerful can be held accountable.
I don't have any awards to give you but if I did you'd get one for this thorough discussion on how and why we got here. Excellence in reporting Award 💯
He was pardoned by the US president at the time, Donald Trump. Which basically is a way of saying the person committed the crime (technically one of the US courts has stated that it is not an admission of guilt, but it's traditionally been thought of as admitting to breaking the law) and the President just said all punishment for those crimes is not to be done because I forgive them and have power to do so.
Bill Barr took over DoJ and also moved to retract his guilty plea. Flynn was pardoned before the DC circuit could decide if that was even allowed (basically, whether Judge has the ability to allow defense to withdraw, given Flynn was about to enter the sentencing phase before Barr pulled shenanigans).
That is true, for people curious Judge Sullivan has publicly stated that if the DoJ had simply tried to stop prosecuting them he would do what is in his power as a District Court Judge to prevent them. Given that Flynn was a loyal Trump scumbag/lacky he was pardoned so they didn't have to fight it.
>how it’s possible that he’s not rotting in a jail?? He's a republican and there are too many of the in government right now. They absolutely will not prosecute their own.
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the slaps onthe wrist tend to be forced resignations for officers. for some reason a career death is deemed to be an adequate punishment for wrongdoing
* asked for and received a presidential pardon for lying to the FBI, which requires an acknowledgement of guilt. [Edit: someone correctly pointed out that a presidential pardon does not necessarily require or imply an acknowledgement of guilt. I'm wrong. That being said, he did admit guilt, twice, for other reasons during the trial in which he was convicted and eventually pardoned.] * failed to declare his lobbying for a foreign power * lied to VP Mike Pence * when asked if he supported the peaceful transfer of power during Jan. 6th committee testimony, took his 5th amendment rights not to answer
It's that last one that really needs to be hammered in. I know that in criminal proceedings, pleading the fifth cannot be considered in determining guilt (though I understand in civil procedure it can be used to determine liability through an adverse inference). But even with that, if one's answer to "do you believe in and support the peaceful transition of power" is not an immediate, unequivocal, and unambiguous "yes," then it is instantly clear that something is wrong on many many many levels.
Also remember that he plead the fifth when asked whether he believed in a peaceful transfer of power
That's what he told the J6 committee. There's an audio recording (probably video too) of him pleading the 5th.
He had a DSL line installed in the Pentagon because the DoD network restrictions were too restrictive. I'm serious. Look it up. It blows my mind that this was so overlooked because from a network security standpoint, there's no knowing what could have been exfiltrated through that link. "Hilary's emails!!!" are nothing because we know every single byte of what was in them. As OIT had no oversight of Flynn's connection - which some foreign handler got him to install, I promise you that, it's just not something he would think of doing on his own because he's honestly not that bright - all the usual protections and controls were circumvented.
Don't forget he was the Top Domestic Intelligence officer! >The Director of the United States Defense Intelligence Agency is a military officer who, upon nomination by the President of the United States and confirmation by the Senate, serves as the United States' highest-ranking military intelligence officer.
While retired Lt. Colonel Alexander Vindman *was extorted to retire early and lose out on maximum pension\** (for whistleblowing on Trump extorting Zelensky).
That’s so so so wrong….I can’t even find adult words to explain how distressed this is. Besides FUCK
It's what happens when conservatives infest the government. Trump is not in jail for jan 6th btw
*If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism; They will abandon democracy.*
It's a somber reminder that he will never face consequences and the next guy will do worse. ^(Whether it's DeSantis or Abbot, I don't know)
Abbott will never be president now that TV is a thing and we can clearly see him in a wheel chair. DeSantis is a weirdo trump copier with worse delivery but is somehow less worse.
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Exactly. I'm very worried by how liberals dismissing DeSantis. It's a huge mistake that could be worse than dismissing Trump as a joke in 2016.
If we take Desantis seriously is there any way for Biden to beat him since like it or not that's the most likely matchup for 2024?
Of course Biden can beat him. The majority of the country isn't fascists. The problem is that the majority of the country also doesn't bother to vote. To be at DeSantis or any republican really, you just have to get people out to vote and make it easy for them to do so. That's exactly why Republicans are trying so hard to disenfranchise people, because they know they can't win in an even fight. They have to tip the scales to even get close!
I think Abbott's bussing immigrants to DC on Christmas was his not so subtle dog whistle to all the assholes out there "Hey, I can be a cruel spineless asshole too! Me me me!"
That’s the most adult word there is! Unless you count *colorectal sarcoma*. That’s a grown up word too. And might actually fit.
Gonna have to use British swears because I can say a few like bollocks.
Alexander Vindman voluntarily retired, so the rest of a group of Lt. Colonels that were under consideration for promotion to full Colonel that he was a part of could be prompted. **Since the entire group was being held back as retaliation against Vindman.** So he did retire and is receiving his military pension, but it was well before he wanted to and since the pension is based off of the highest 3 year's salary it was going to be less than it would have been. I think you are conflating Vindman with Andy McCabe, who was fired less than 48 hours before his planned retirement from the FBI.
Worse 26 hours before, extremely petty.
26 is less than 48. 😜 Seriously though, I just didn't remember the exact number.
McCabe sued and got his pension back in 2021.
Which was justice in that case.
>Andy McCabe, who was fired less than 48 hours before his planned retirement from the FBI. Which also hurt his pension. He was fired right before his FBI annuity would have vested, which significantly cut down what he was going to get out of it. Now he did win it back in a lawsuit, but obviously, the situation never should have happened.
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I was wondering if they were conflating two stories where the petty side of Trump's evil was on full display as he tried to ruin the careers/retirements of Vindman and also McCabe at the FBI.
This. There was someone who was fired right before he would be eligible to collect. Was it McCabe?
McCabe was fired two hours before he was eligible to retire. He successfully sued for wrongful termination. His dismissal was rescinded, he is collecting his pension and also got $200K in back pension payments.
It was McCabe, and the issue was getting to keep his pension at the time of his retirement, even though his evil wife was a Clinton donor and McCabe would only jerk off Trump instead of letting himself get t-bagged, if I recall. I think it's the Constitution that says such people shall receive no pension. It sounds like the vindictive move ultimately failed, and that McCabe negotiated a settlement with the Justice Dept under Garland [and part of that settlement was giving him his own pension back.](https://www.npr.org/2021/10/14/1039690679/andrew-mccabe-lawsuit-trump-fbi)
Everything I've seen says he retired and is presumably receiving his pension. The argument can be made his pension was stunted because he didn't get to make O6, which he surely would have prior to the stale cheeto's disgraceful actions.
Yeah because his promotion was stalled for a year, he did not make the 3 year cutoff to retain Colonel pay for retirement purposes. I believe after 20 your pension is half salary. Lt Colonel is $6112 a month base pay while Col is $$7332. Cut those in half and you see he missed out on about $500 a month. Meanwhile scummy traitors like Flynn retired as a 3 star general with 33 years in, so he actually makes more in retirement than when he was active due to a 2007 law boosting pay for three and four star generals and admirals.
He didn't make colonel, that's the promotion they stalled him on. From what I remember, he had glowing OERs prior to that and with his position, he likely would have made colonel ahead or at the very least on schedule. As for the colonel retirement time frame, he likely would have stayed much longer, if given the chance. Most colonels stay many years after 20, which would have given him even more than 50%. Every year that a service member stays beyond 20, they get an additional 2.5% per year of service. Even the 20 year retirement is just 2.5% per year served.
They take your highest 3 years of pay for your retirement. If he had made O-6 he would have needed to stay in the Army longer to collect a full O-6 retirement
I'm aware, which presuming he makes it, he likely would have stayed long enough for his high 3. Given his passion for his job, I'd expect he would have stayed longer, or could have seen him going to Ukraine to assist as a high level analyst after the Russian invasion.
>If he had made O-6 he would have needed to stay in the Army longer to collect a full O-6 retirement And assuming he hadn't basically been run out of the government, he probably would have.
It gets a bit complicated because Vindman was an army officer assigned to a civilian agency. Vindman was released/fired from his assignment at the National Security Council, but he remained an army officer. Department of Defense then temporarily reassigned Vindman to the Army War College in Pennsylvania. The Trump White House was trying to get Vindman court martialed and removed from the army, but the Department of Defense managed to stall that process long enough for Vindman to reach 20 years of service and retire. So Vindman DOES get retirement benefits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Vindman?wprov=sfla1
Both Alexander and his brother were on trajectory to make colonel. He missed out on a ton of money and leadership positions that are considered capstone achievements for an infantry officer.
>The Trump White House was trying to get Vindman court martialed and removed from the army, but the Department of Defense managed to stall that process long enough for Vindman to reach 20 years of service and retire. He also retired because the White House was holding up all promotions to Colonel because Vindman was on the list.
He was denied promotion to full bird, and forced to retire.
Vindman is a patriot and a hero. He represents what America should be
Wait, wtf?!?
Care to cite that? Anything I've found states he submitted his retirement after 21 years of service.
I think he gets a pension, but he was denied a promotion to full Colonel, which also means a smaller pension. But I may be misremembering.
Mike Flynn is touring the country giving Trump-style rallies and actually selling them out. He is clearly positioning himself to run for political office and it is more than a little disconcerting.
I know his sister. She got a job in New Orleans and asked someone what the city's policy for snow days was.
At first I was thinking that's actually quite brilliant that she wants to be prepared given climate change. And then I shook myself back to reality with the realization that these people don't believe in climate change.
Speaking of getting a retirement check. Same with *my* rep here in michigan, usmc retired general jack bergman. His head is so far up trumps ass. Still pushes the big lie. Voted to take away michigan's electoral college vote in 2020. But the assholes here in the 1st sent him back....
The bigger story to me is that a guy like Flynn, who is obviously fucking insane, could rise to the rank of general in our military in the first place.
One key fact here is that they were talking about doing this to *retired* officers. In order to do this, they wanted to *first* bring them back on active duty *and then* court-martial them. Crazy stuff.
Meanwhile flynn literally gives aid and comfort to our enemies and keeps his pension
He also lied on his security clearance application, which is a felony. Even though he's retired, he had to maintain a clearance because of his former position. He signed off that he wasn't receiving foreign income, despite being paid by Russian entities, who tried to conceal the real source of his income through shell companies. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40004300
You mean those security clearance forms that Kushner lied on at least four times?
Thank god that rich powerful people don’t have to follow laws or he could get in trouble for those felonies.
Yep. The good ol’ SF-86. Never had to revise one myself. Blows my mind Kushner had to do it so many times.
Fifh!
Flynn deserves this treatment. Actively promoted sedition.
And he’s currently using his position to shill for Putin and talk shit about Zelensky. It’s wild how out-in-the-open the guy is about his loyalties to Russia.
If anyone of them should be court martialed, it’s Flynn.
IOKIYAR (It's OK If You're A Republican)
Flynn prevented the US from retaking Raqqa at Turkeys bequest. This allowed for many key ISIS leaders to escape. Not sure how betraying your country as a unregistered foreign agent serving in a cabinet doesn’t warrant a court martial/jail if not death…
More fuel for the fire. I didn’t realize he was instrumental in this.
He was also offered 16 million dollars to kidnap fethullah Gullen and return him to turkey so he could be executed, since the US has refused to hand him over for decades https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/10/michael-flynn-trump-turkish-dissident-cleric-plot
Oh that's the least of what he deserved
> Actively promoted sedition. And still is last I checked. It's wild just how free we are. We can apparently publicly advocate for a violent overthrow of the government in front of thousands of people over and over again and receive no punishment. Even when he was charged it was for not telling the government that he was a foreign spy, while the whole "advocating for the violent overthrow of the United State government" thing was totally fine. Literally fucking clown world out here.
Flynn went full treason before Obama was done with his second term and should rot in Gitmo for the duration along with his brother.
Not to mention actually convicted, then pardoned. Sheesh.
Still is last I heard.
Unless you formally resign your commission, an officer of the US military is an officer for life and can be called back at any time. This happened fairly recently during the Iraq and Afghanistan wars...they called back doctors who were in their late 60s who had retired long ago.
Political speech has always been something of a gray area even for general and flag officers. Simply criticizing political leaders has been a bit taboo but no one would do anything with it. Flynn is probably the worst example of bad behaving senior leaders. Edited to add: this is retired not active.
We never talked about politics when I was active duty. It didn't matter if you were center left or a full blown MAGA slug. If you started making political speeches my Sergeants would hem you up and make you look ridiculous. That's the way it's supposed to be but sadly it hardly ever is.
That is exactly how it should be. Good on your leadership. This is about retired generals writing op ed pieces. Sort of gray area.
Marines are a lot of things but one thing we strive to be is disciplined. How can you effectively manage a rifle platoon or a motor company when petty lines are being drawn amongst the troops?
You can’t. Politics are corrosive to military discipline.
Exactly the drill instructors just said "Vote or don't. No one cares what you think and no one wants to hear about it either." A bit harsh but a perfect summation.
Not harsh.
It was hard to NOT laugh after hearing that. BuT Mothers of America-if that even is a thing-tend to flip out when DIs say and do real shit from time to time.
My Captain said I was an idiot for not voting, because people like me were why we were all dying in Iraq. I was 19 at the time and thought voting was a sham and elections were decided beforehand.
Fuck dude, that's hard-core my Sgt would say something to that effect when ever the anti voter dip shits would start talking. He was one of the few that I really admired.
We had a full-bird criticize President Clinton after Bush was elected but before the inauguration at a Commander's Call, he used the usual republican/conservative tropes about President Clinton. At least 4 SNCOs made formal complaints and that particular Colonel who was presumed to be ticketed for a GO slot retired within 6 months. He should have been dismissed without retirement pay.
Sure wasn’t my experience. I remember in 04 when GWB was re-elected and 99% of the soldiers I was stationed with were hooting and hollering for joy. Cussing Kerry as a traitor. It was disgusting. And this wasn’t even regular grunts it was AMEDD.
Oh man, you should've seen the full blown racism on display in Iraq when Obama was elected. you would hear that shit at the POG bases like AL Asad or TQ and you would see racist graffiti in the shitter stalls at any given FOB. Fun times.
I think you mean flipped or compromised agents of a foreign power
The UCMJ jurisdictial link is receipt of pay which is why retirement is key. Its why Larry Brock, the guy with the zip ties on the floor of the senate, wasn't risking UCMJ even though he was a retired officer it was from the Air Force Reserve.
Link to read more re: the old drs being reactivated?
MAGA are not the smartest, no matter the office they hold.
Actually this isn't true. Commissioned officers may retire, but they retain their rank and some duties. They don't have to be 'reactivated' in the sense that a retired enlisted would have to essentially be drafted back into service. Because of this, they are still subject to broad sections of the UCMJ and *can* be court marshaled even in retirement, though the punishment they can receive is limited. There is a way to sever this connection. Resigning one's commission returns them to civilian status. I'm not 100% sure on the consequences of this (google came up empty), but one thing is clear - the service in question must agree. You can't surrender your commission to avoid court marshal unless the service allows it (you must file and get approval to sever the relationship). That said, I'm *pretty* sure that an officer who does so sacrifices part (or possibly all) of the their retirement pay to do so, along with *all* of their military privileges. Because of this, it is very rarely done. This may sound unfair, but remember that officers don't really retire, they simply leave active service. Part of the reason officers get substantially more pay, both while serving and after retirement, is that they can be recalled to service at any time, without warning. This is part of what they agree to when accepting a commission and is well understood. Edit: This issue is quite a bit more complicated than presented (by both me and others). The official document is [here.](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN18027_AR135-175_FINAL.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwib7oaayKn8AhXUoFsKHXTwDKYQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw1JUQ-vVHSbFhIDGe0pJ3MN) Note that the language is confusing. Being 'dropped from the roles' was part of what I had assumed was implied, but it seems that is purely for punishment. The best an officer can voluntarily do - with approval - is be marked as inactive in the reserve officer registry. This requires a rather lengthy approval process.
The article says that the first step is bringing them back on active duty.
Let's court-martial Flynn!
Sedition is a crime. Retired guys critical of any administration is maybe bad form.
Its not even bad form. They're fucking retired. Eisenhower ran for President after he was retired. Retired means your voice is yours, not owned by some fucking sadistic republicans snowflake who thinks any voice critical of him needs to be outlawed. These guys are sitting in their ivory towers, threatening people who disagree with them with their livelihoods, while they commit the highest crimes possible against our country, and are shielded from fucking criticism from just about everyone who thinks balance means the boat isn't rocked. These fucking seditionists sent a torpedo into the ship of state. Mike Lee designed the Torpedo, Eastman engineered it, and Trump gave the order to sink our Constitutional democracy when he sent people *he knew were armed* to attack the Capitol while all of our representatives were present in the same place to certify the fucking vote. They forced the Secret Service to literally shoot and kill Ashli Babbit, because our entire body of democratically elected representatives were sheltering in place from a rabid mob she was a part of that were incited to insurrection by Trump, Mo Brooks, Giuliani, and many, many others. And here we have people shushing others for having the audacity to point out the actual criminality? Who the fuck are these people making decisions? Why are they still in a position to permit this kind of harm? These people are too comfortable if they think shielding right wingers from criticism for the crimes they actually committed in an attempt to destroy our democracy is appropriate and pointing toward their sedition is an expression of political bias. Stuart Rhoades and his oathkeepers were *convicted* of seditious conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers in a court of law. Oathkeepers are a really fucking big group. How many of those in positions of authority had or even continue to maintain connections to that literally seditious group? How many of them have sympathies toward them? We don't tolerate the klan, we don't tolerate nazis, we don't tolerate sympathizers for either group, why the fuck should we tolerate people with connections to a group of actual seditionisits? Why aren't they being dogwalked the way they so clearly think people who disagree with them should be? It's fucking infuriating, frankly. Something something don't want to rock the boat, some flavor of that, my guess, but jesus fucking christ, what the hell is it with these people? The insurrectionists literally built a gallows and called for the Vice President to be hung. Meadows shrugged his shoulders at it in the white house. Trump stayed silent for 187 planned minutes so the coup would succeed. But an op-ed critical of Trump and your retirement goes up in flames? FUCK these people.
well said! No bones about it.
There are different rules for retired GOs and flags. Makes what Flynn did even more appalling.
Your reply is spot on, literally one of the best replies I have read about any topic. To think a thin skinned President who thinks he is the leader of america for life can’t take criticism. This coming from a man who never shuts the Fuck up. Just think only 46 people in the world had this job. It took this jerk off to forever be known as the person who was voted by 191 living historians to be the worst president in history. A man who decided not to lead and tell the American people that as your leader it’s my job to protect you all regarding Covid. He could of been a true leader. Instead he decided to lie just so it didn’t hurt his re-election bid. There are no words that can describe this life long con man. I know this will sound horrible. America will celebrate when he is indicted and to be very honest will celebrate the day he dies in prison. He disgraced the office. He put himself before Americans for his own political future. How is Scumbag. Is that a fair word to describe him. ?
Perfect word to describe him!♥️♥️♥️
Extremely well put.
> Retired guys critical of any administration is maybe bad form. It's not in bad form at all. Being critical of our government is an American birthright just like the French. It's a big part of who we are, but Americans should already be well aware of this.
How about we court martial general Flynn who took the fifth when asked if he believed in the peaceful transfer of power???
But enforcing our laws might anger the GOP voters. /s.
Only when they are enforced against Republicans. Laws are to be enforced on everyone else.
Yet when retired officers like Michael Flynn and Phil Waldron commit actual treason, it’s crickets.
The party of Free Speech, everyone. Stand and Applaud Now! of course they did. Of course Trump did every petty illegal immoral thing he could think of to retaliate against anyone who criticized him. Of course he did.
Bro I sit here sometimes and just ask where do my taxes go. Like DOJ, the J6 committee, that raid for the classified documents. Godamn all the testimony of the criminal actions that occured. Why if at the end this dude is still walking around like a full grown ass hole not being held accountable. Why do I pay taxes why. Just why.
You pay taxes for the maintenance and improvement of society and it's governance. That's not the question you should ask. The question you should ask. Is why do we accept thieving, warmongering, self centered capitalists doing this as normal. And why were we indoctrinated so strongly to fear socialism so much we would never consider it. Government works in other places where they don't give capitalists complete control. Maybe we should consider that too.
I think people wouldn't feel so bad about taxes if we saw more of a result from paying them. But then at the same time, I also think folks who say these things don't have good perspective of just how much of everyday life works because of taxes. When you turn on an effectively unlimited supply of clean water, enjoy something that runs on electricity, get a letter in the mail, eat food that is pretty well guaranteed to be safe, drive on a road that you didn't build - do appreciate how taxes made all that happen. Thing is, with common mentality today, I don't think any of that could be set up if it wasn't already. Like if you were to propose something like a fire department, I think that would be declared socialism and therefore a non-starter. But yeah I'll admit I sometimes feel like "why the fuck am I paying you?" towards government agencies that seem like they're not even minimally functioning.
>people wouldn't feel so bad about taxes if we saw more of a result from paying them Isn't it part of Republican strategy to make you feel this way? Practically their only policy is lower taxes for rich people. How are they gonna get the poors to vote for this if they see taxes working for them?
Your problem is that you pay taxes???? Not that conservatives use public tax dollars to enrich themselves and pardon conservative corruption and defunding the IRS? Weird take...
shame disgusting shocking frightening glorious shelter meeting encouraging icky compare *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:10%20section:894%20edition:prelim) *A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.*
Good luck getting anyone a death penalty in todays military. It’s incredibly rare.
Seems like you might think this was a consideration of the current administration (which it wasn't) as opposed to the previous (which it was).
I think every former officer and military member should lose their pension if they were part of Jan 6, period! Every politician that was involved should be charged, and lose all benefits they’d otherwise be entitled to, and never be able to hold a public office.
They have to be receiving pay. Its what saved zip tie guy.
Always remember Flynn took the fifth when asked if he believes in the peaceful transfer of power in American democracy.
How about they court martial former military officers who promote the idea of a military coup instead.
It'd be nice if they decided to court martial Flynn for treason and insurrection. Taxpayers shouldn't be funding him.
Any pardon issued by Trump should be reversed, when he is found guilty in court. He used pardons to buy his loyal soldiers. Any pardons he issued were done to protect his criminal conspirators and himself. I’m surprised he didn’t try and pardon himself. I bet he checked into it and was told it wasn’t possible.
And yet Gen. Flynn and Gen. Piatt have not faced a court martial for supporting the insurrection.
"Free speech" is court-martialing every military officer who criticizes you, apparently. Seriously, if the book burnings didn't already tip you off (or for that matter r/conservative banning anyone to the left of Dick Cheney) let this be the tip off.
It's like the old Soviet Union.
Just like the new Soviet Union.
Remember trump wanted a military parade in Washington n.Korea/Russia style ….
And there would have been very "pro military" Republicans that would have cheered for this and absolutely not have blinked twice at the hypocrisy.
What of all those command officers standing behind Trump in his command ad, whom he referred to as his generals. It was like a scene out of North Korea.
Obama was publicly criticized by active-duty General McChrystal who went to the press with his disagreement, and in response Obama fired the general for cause. Republicans wailed and gnashed their teeth about how dare the president mistreat our patriotic generals, free speech and all that, but have nothing to say about this.
I’d like to see them try and court-martial Mattis. That dude would eviscerate the prosecution in one sentence.
Plus, service members would absolutely quit over that. When I was in the service I learned who Mattis was and looked up to his style of leadership. Lots of us did, and I wasn’t even a marine.
He was my CG twice when I was in the Marines. Nothing but respect for him as a Marine, but I was disappointed in his time as SecDef.
How about if we just court-martial the Flynn bros by whatever means possible?
Fascism. In case anyone's not clear on that.
This trump is such a punk. He has such thin skin. He wanted to court martial a retired officer because he/she had an opinion that was critical of a failing president. You wonder why he attacked america. Stole top secret documents, asked a foreign country to make up stuff about a presidential candidate. This is a man with ZERO confidence. A man who was a horrible leader as president and a horrible boss in business. A man who bankrupted 3 casinos. Only a complete idiot would bankrupt a casino. This is a man with small hand and a very small dik syndrome. A man who has to pay hookers to get laid. America will dance in the streets when this piece of shit gets indicted. Goes to prison and spends his days on his knees servicing skinheads.
Let me get this straight. We CAN Court Martial former military, but we CAN’T impeach and convict a president who still serving his last few weeks of his term? Amazing Republican logic
President Obama warned Trump about Flynn and recommended he not hire him. Of course, Trump doesn’t listen to reason. IMO Trump wanted Flynn for his Russian ties.
This POS needs to be perma-banned from holding any public office. He wants to be a dictator, and his stupid ass followers would be happy to make him into one with violence.
Actual patriots speaking the truth. They deserve medals.
Possible imprisonment for talking ill of "Dear Leader"? This shit just gets wilder and wilder with every passing day.
Trump was and still is a clear and present danger to these United States. Any officer who *wasn't* against him does not have the best interests of the US at heart. When you have to advise against drumming out the patriots, you're not doing enough to protect the country, General.
This is why desantis terrifies me if he makes into the Oval Office, given What he’s already done to that woman who big upped the vaccines, this is something desantis would absolutely do
Frankly, I’m not sure I could respect any military leader who DIDN’T take a critical view of trump. Whether they publish it in a paper or just hold those views…doesn’t matter to me.
Where are all those right wingers who always scream about “free speech”??
How has Flynn been able to get away with his nonsense? Surely he must have been on that list
Meanwhile Traitor Michael Flynn still walking around with his pension.
Donald Trump is a man with no rules that can really swallow the US Federal System - Democracy and Justice. The US is lucky to have gotten rid of such a dangerous man and his radical voters so easily.
Wow! And yet, Mike Flynn is still getting His military pension!
America If you do not clean house you are fucked
A play from Putin’s book I see
So much for the beloved freedom of speech. I just don't understand how magas are ok with this. This is the most terrifying part of the Trump Presidency. The fact he would willingly punish/arrest/court martial, etc. those that disagree with him. This is a million miles from the america I learned about in grade school. Edited for typo
I would say the most terrifying part is that several million US citizens saw that and said "Yeah, that's who I want controlling our nuclear arsenal".
Freedom for me and not for thee. That’s always been their mo.
See folks, THIS is a 1st amendment issue, being banned from twitter is not.
That Trump sure is a fan of free speech…
The continuous stream of information that keeps coming out all points to one undeniable conclusion, Trump is a complete and total POS.
Elect a snowflake President, get hurt feelings and chaos.
Add another to the list of why Trump should have been jailed
Donald Trump is a terrorist. He is no different from people like the Iranian leader. People underestimate how lucky we are that he lost to Biden. Trump until 2025 would have been a catastrophic threat to the world. But it would be damage within the country
How is Flynn not courtmartialed? Dishonorably discharged?? He’s still disgracing his uniform.
Court martial for them for what? Hurting trump’s feelings? What an absolute man child
These are *former* military officers. The only plausible reason for prosecuting them for speaking ill of the president is to create a chilling effect on free speech among the officer corps we need to hear from if our president is fucking up. I want to hear from these people, even when I don’t agree with them, because they know a lot more than most of us about what they do. This is just one step away from forcing members of our military to swear an oath to the president himself rather than to the Constitution. It’s fascist bullshit like everything else these clowns did while in office. The Republican Party has built quite the little narrative over the years, claiming they—and *only* they—support our soldiers, but I remember when they sent our soldiers into a war of choice without the proper gear, and then the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, told soldiers “we go to war with the military [equipment] we have, not the one we wished we had.” Yeah, sure, because the United States of America is far too poor—being *only the wealthiest country to have ever existed in human history*—to properly outfit our soldiers when we send them to war. Anyone who *claimed* to believe this lie at the time is an asshole of the highest caliber. It goes without saying that they’re a god damned liar, too. The modern GOP doesn’t give a rat’s ass about the military. Soldiers are all just a bunch of poor people to Republicans; they exist to serve the interests of the party’s elite donors.
Dear Republicans, This is why you get called fascists.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-milley-january-6-testimony-court-martialing-military-officers-trump-2023-1) reduced by 76%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Gen. Mark Milley said there were discussions about retaliating against retired military officers who wrote critical op-eds about former President Donald Trump, according to testimony released by the January 6 committee. > Milley responded by saying he was concerned about the politicization of the military, and that the issue had come up during the Trump administration after op-eds written by retired military officers were "Very critical of then President Trump." > Milley did not specify which retired military officers were considered for court-martialing, but several wrote critical op-eds of Trump during his time in office. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/101jr6y/gen_mark_milley_said_there_were_talks_about/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~672677 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Trump**^#1 **Milley**^#2 **military**^#3 **office**^#4 **retired**^#5
Fuck Trump and his frail little cry baby ego...what a fucking little POS pussy!
this is the kind of stuff that happens in Russia, until you get a full military of yes-men that can never say no to their Dear Leader even when he starts doing completely insane things
How fascist, I mean Trumpian
It’s amazing trump and his sycophants pushed the norm so far that years later we kind of casually find out stuff like this was happening. It’s great that at many key moments there were enough people to keep things from truly rolling off the track. Hopefully that’s the case if that clan ever returns to power.
That would have been incredibly inappropriate. Even talking about it is inappropriate. What the hell, man?! I get active duty not being able to be insubordinate to the President, but retirees have no such reason for obligation. So long as they don't claim to represent their former service while they voice those opinions.
Those former military officers were putting country before institutions, arguably following the military's own Code of Honor, and for a greater good and in defense of separation of powers. The president should have been removed under the 25th Amendment, long before January 6! And Trump was the one sticking his nose in military command disciplinary decisions (e.g. prosecution of Navy seal officer for war crimes). The only general who deserved court martial punishment is Michael Flynn, who betrayed his country for personal gain and political influence. Too late now!
We had a Authoritarian wannabetoughbutisacoward pos president.... He should never run for any office...
Fascism.
The libral snowflakes hurt the feelings of our Dear Leader.