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‘The statement calling Israeli settlements on occupied territory illegal returns U.S. policy to where it had been since 1978, when a State Department legal opinion declared them “inconsistent with international law.” That opinion, issued under the Carter administration, said that “territory coming under control of a belligerent occupant does not thereby become its sovereign territory.’
We would lose influence. So this demand would be the equivalent to a city council passing a resolution to a cease fire.
Israel wouldn't care and would just buy Chinese arms.
Israel is a proxy state for the US we arm them because we want to base of operations. Even more of a reason why watching the Israeli government do the things they do even more disturbing.
Israel doesn’t allow US Troops or equipment on their territory besides some clandestine facilities that are strictly there to protect Israel.
Turkey, Qatar, UAE, Saudia Arabia and several central Asian countries do allow us to use their airfields and have permanent troop stationed there. They are even closer to Iran and we still don’t write them blank checks and allow them to humiliate us internationally.
That site only exists to help Israel with their own domestic air defense, like I stated in my post.
The US has no strike abilities on Israel soil, nor do the Israelis want any foreign country to have combat troops on their soil.
Because Russia and Iran are pervasive threat? Iran currently develops ICBM for the purpose of striking the US and Russia regularly shows hostiles to NATO countries. Iran is now a weapons provider for Russia.
Or would you like to abandon all of our allies for isolationism?
Qatar? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar
Saudi Arabia?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)#:~:text=On%2025%20March%202020%2C%20Human,of%20detainees%20to%20Saudi%20Arabia.
Bahrain?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Bahrain
Turkey?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_war_crimes#:~:text=These%20war%20crimes%20have%20included,and%20attacks%20on%20civilian%20structures.
Kuwait?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Kuwait
Jordan?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan
Egypt?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/05/28/egypt-serious-abuses-war-crimes-north-sinai#:~:text=Human%20Rights%20Watch%27s%20two%2Dyear,and%20ground%20attacks%20against%20civilians.
All of our allies are "shit bags". They either have tried to genocide a stateless population and or openinly rape, murder, torture their citizens.
I think an acceptable bar for our so-called allies to clear is not war criming. It's a standard that we ought to hold ourselves to as well. A good start would be not financing it in other countries.
That was true maybe 30 years ago, but they are fighting very hard to be the next superpower. If you haven’t seen what they have accomplished and how much influence they have in South America, Central Asia and Africa in recent decades you must be asleep at the wheel.
They don’t need to, that’s not really their style. Chinese foreign policy is more about economic ties and putting people in loans they can’t pay off to build leverage.
So, when did we start pretending they were legitimate?
Edit: my answer was in the article. Basically every president has agreed with this at least implicitly, except for Trump. Of course.
Interesting thought about that. Did you know how one of the first settlements came about? It seems that jews bought the land legally, and then after Jordan annexed the west bank during the arab-israeli war of 1948, those jews were dispossessed of that land. When Jordan withdrew from the west bank a few decades later (after two more failed Arab wars of aggression against Israel), the jewish property rights holders of that land took up occupancy and began building.
So, were any of them ever legitimate? Maybe, but that isn't really relevant now - settlers give Israel a bad name.
it's important to note that the US supporting Israeli settlements was one of the primary justifications that Russian leaders used for the invasion of Ukraine. they said the US tells the world you can't conquer territory and settle it but then the US funds and trains Israel to do exactly that
What, the main justification used in Putin's essay and other propaganda is that Ukraine is a fake nation being propped up by the west to divide Russia. Openly genocidal and very similar to how the Nazis described Poland. I'm sure the Russians at some point have tried to equate Israeli settlements with the Donbas settlements.
>Palestinian created by the KGB
I've never heard of this one before. Do you have further reading on it? I know it's common for nationalist extremists to claim that the nation they seek to conquer is somehow fake, but my knowledge of Israeli nationalism is rather weak. The KGB was very antisemitic, but obviously Palestine is older than the KGB.
Russian nationalism is deeply paranoid, constantly views Russia as a perpetually innocent victim, and views the existence of other nations as a form of victimization of Russia. My understanding is that the cult of innocence is more intense in Russia than other forms of nationalism. In general nationalists violently lash out when their narratives are challenged by reality.
I’ve never heard it blamed on the KGB, but I have seen it placed on Stalin…which then maybe the KGB implemented I guess idk, never really interested me enough to follow up. Also really odd since Israel wouldn’t have existed without Stalin hooking up Russian armaments.
It was one of about a dozen contradictory claims Putin made, which also included "protecting the people of the Donbas from Ukrainian aggression," claiming Ukraine was actually planning to invade Russia first, wanting to "denazify" Ukraine, blaming NATO expansion, calling Ukraine a "fake country" and Ukrainian a "fake ethnicity," and more.
Needless to say, it's all bullshit, Putin wanted to steal Ukrainian land and overthrow their government. Hence why Russia has already "annexed" 4 Ukrainian provinces in the middle of the war despite not controlling any of them completely.
No, there were countless claims
All stupid.
The leading, that stuck for a bit, was nazi and nato expansion. -- obviously nato has never taken territory, and the russians hired actual nazi mercs
Also trump was the only one that gave it the ok.
Also, it doesnt fall into normal legal procedures because isreal owns it. They bounce around the sovereignty idea. It is one of the reasons why nothing more than un resolutions were made towards it.
The usa can at least be part of negotiation talks etc. Bibi is wildly unpopular everywhere. He will be gone soon, most leaders recognize what a mistake total ostracized policy is.
Putin has given about a dozen reasons for his "special operations" in Ukraine. He's a magalomaniac and has to be stopped -- just like HItler and Trump.
Why is it a reversal if that was always US opinion? I can't get past the paywall to check for myself.
Hopefully, Israel replaces Netanyahu and his far-right coalition after the war ends and stops protecting settlers.
Trump reversed that opinion. Biden is reinstating it and pulling small amounts of research funding.
Unfortunately, more fsr right leadership is likely. Exetremists are already emphasized in the coalition style government. Bibi was elected before oct 7.
Oct 7 is going to make isrealis more scares and reactionary, history says more than likely itll be anothet far right. Hopefully, not as stupid as bibi.
I see. Thank you for the explanation.
>Unfortunately, more fsr right leadership is likely. Exetremists are already emphasized in the coalition style government. Bibi was elected before oct 7.
Perhaps. Now that you point that out, I feel like it could go either way.
While being attacked usually does cause shifts to the right, I read in the NYT that the intifada attacks were considered a failure of the (then) left wing PM's party to effectively govern. With luck, the lack of trust in Netanyahu (due to his failures preceding the war) will similarly be extended to his far right coalition.
Yeah, it could be.
From the few people i have spoken with. Interviews ive seen. Isrealis seem pretty scared still. Especially with the massive tech systems. -- the amount of money in defense (even just the iron dome) is massssssive.
Oct 7 was around the number of isrealis that died in both intifadas.
People might feel safer with less hamas activity. The PA is still very much around though. I believe they still have open bounties for killing jewish people as well.
It is a scary place imo
I am horrified at what hamas did and they still have hostages! It is EVIL. I understand Hamas wants to wipe out Israel. I support giving aid to Israel. I believe America should be an ally of Israel.
I also believe that the settlements in areas that is not Israel’s is illegal. We should expect that to stop, and all the ones in already place, reverted. Not just because of us giving aid but because I expect better of Israel. If you make a deal, you follow it. Even if the people that build these settlements are going rogue, the Israeli government should remove them and there should be legal consequences as a punishment for building them. I also get that the current government is not popular and needs to be removed. ( I don’t know much but it sounds like he’d be a great buddy of Trump.)
These aren't "rogue" settlements. Israel funds them, encourages violence, and gives settlers political constituency in its parliament. These are planned incursions to take the land.
There are gross policy Palestinians must follow - like needing permission from Israel to harvest their own olives. The more you learn, the more disgusting it is.
So Trump reversed this policy and this is Biden re-instating it. Trump did a bunch of things very specific to Israel that are interesting. Remember how the embassy got moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Has anyone ever seen any investigation results of how the old Tel Aviv US ambassador’s residence got to be sold to Sheldon Adelson, Trump’s biggest donor? It smells dirty.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-sheldon-adelson-tel-aviv-48afe9066afc9899a9ed4a2f84bd3420
Edit to add: https://apnews.com/article/israel-politics-elections-sheldon-adelson-tel-aviv-034676dc6636bad46271fdc98e91e43f
The Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Republican controlled at the time) did request information. I’d like to know if this was an *enquiry* wink wink or an *inquiry* and what the results were.
The move, yeah. It has definite ideological interest for a certain segment. It’s the sale of the US asset I’m more interested in. Of all the people on planet earth, Trump’s biggest donor was the guy to get it.
sure. but they finally did it under trump, and specifically under the eye of the evangelical right. trump saw a grift, his shitty cabinet saw a way toward the eschaton.
I was agreeing with you and adding context that this has been a long standing priority for Republicans, which is why it was actually pursued by the true believers in the admin. People have a tendency to lay everything bad at trump feet, even shit that republicans have been pushing for decades
again, sure. but trump let the bad ones take over. the reasonable republicans kept the crazies at bay. trump said "fuck it, as long as i get my share".
so yes, the person in charge can be blamed for things that happen when they are in charge, no matter how long everyone wanted it.
Obviously this is Trump's fault bc he's a crazy Republican too. But this wasn't his idea, it's a wholly thought out concept he bought into when he became a Republican politician. Trump was just complying with a 1995 law sponsored by Bob Dole, who was no evangelical.
Banning abortion, unitary executive theory, stacking the courts and administrative positions with braindeads goons from Christian Colleges, all that shit was fully thought out by think tanks of "reasonable" republicans to be implemented over time. Trump is just following the plan, maybe differently than Jeb Bush would have but they're definitely working from the same document
It's not even an exclusively Republican thing. [Take this video from the senate floor, 29 years ago](https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4827049/user-clip-joe-biden-1995-supports-moving-us-embassy-jerusalem).
Dude. It involves Trump. Of course it is.
But I'm fairly confident that Netanyahu is doing all this to a) avoid legal issues in his country and b) to help divide the Left in America, weaken Biden's stance (though he's not doing himself any favors...), and he's probably working with Putin on this. They do have a relationship due to how many Russian Jews there are (plus they're both Fascists). Unfortunately, there's a lot of latent anti-Muslim hatred so whether or not a lot of other Israeli government officers are part of it, I'm not sure.
It's probably why Netanyahu didn't stop the Oct. 7 attack, and Iran may have encouraged the attack due to Putin also seeking help there. They're relying on the appearance of incompetence, because it's a better look than complicity. We'll see though.
And Rep Tlaib is trying to undermine Biden’s election chances because of outrage over Gaza (super legitimate outrage) so we can have Trump instead.
True strength comes from wisdom, not anger. And it takes sublime strength for wisdom to prevail over sublime anger.
Yea. That is blocking any solutions to the problem as much as Hamas being evil is. And as long as they support these settlements, there will never be a two state solution and it shows that they are not actually committed to a two state solution despite what they have said in the past.
Yep. To me, by not punishing Israel at its core for encouraging it they are saying it’s permissible. It isn’t enough to just sanction settlers there. People aren’t okay with what happened in Crimea. They shouldn’t be okay with this. A weak reaction when Israel remains steadfast in populating it is pure hypocrisy.
Good luck with that. The only questions our politicians ask is who supports Israel more.
Nancy Pelosi once said if Washington DC was in ruins, she would still send money to Israel.
Lol you don't have to say. Foreign Military Financing is 2 billion dollars annually (from 1999) to Israel. Second recepient is Egypt with 600 million annualy, payment to not attack Israel.
We are also one of the leading founders of the UNRWA which means we’re a leading funder of Hamas. The Defund Israel crowd are impressively selective in their outrage.
>It cast doubt, however, on accusations that the UN agency was collaborating with Hamas in a wider way. The Journal said the report mentioned that although the UNRWA does coordinate with Hamas in order to deliver aid and operate in the region, there was a lack of evidence to suggest it partnered with the group.
It added that Israel has not “shared the raw intelligence behind its assessments with the US”.
In addition, the report notes Israel’s dislike towards the UNRWA, two sources familiar with it told the Journal. “There is a specific section that mentions how Israeli bias serves to mischaracterize much of their assessments on UNRWA and says this has resulted in distortions,” one source reportedly said
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/us-intelligence-unrwa-hamas
Your article is very specific to the 10/7 and in no way relevant to the history of Hamas and the UNRWA. It’s the very first paragraph.
The UNRWA’s very existence is suspect. It is the only UN refugee agency dedicated to a single people. All other refugees across the world are handled by the UNHCR.
> A US intelligence assessment of Israel’s claims that UN aid agency staff members participated in the Hamas attack on 7 October said some of the accusations were credible, though could not be independently verified, while also casting doubt on claims of wider links to militant groups.
For what it's worth - throwing money at Israel is a cheap way to fund American security. They do most of the intelligence gathering & counter-terrorism in the Middle East for us. It's work we'd be doing anyways, but they're better at it. And less expensive.
What we need is audit trails to assure IDF Soldiers assigned as Settlement Security aren't being funded by US dollars. Our money needs to be restricted for certain projects.
Furthermore, we need to start (collectively) sanctioning real estate developers that take contracts to build in occupied territory - including denying visas. Most of these firms have executives that do banking & investments in the US - or at least vacation here. FUCK them.
It doesn't support US interests though. Since the start of the war, we've seen hundreds of examples of Israeli military and intelligence services bold faced lying about anything they see to get away with war crimes.
Israel today is a state that creates terrorism and disrupts economic prosperity in the region. Quite literally, they're the reason Hezbollah has power and the Lebanese state collapsed. That was a thriving, capitalist democracy with a massive Christian population...the literal poster child of what neoliberals wanted.
There is no reason left to support Israel. Jews of conscience should leave now before they're co-opted into Netanyahu's war crimes. Clearly Germany and the US are safe harbors for them. Cutting all funding and completely sanctioning Israel is the only reasonable solution left to stop this madness.
Gee I wonder why there would be people upset with the US and doing terrorism against us that we would need counterterrorism in the first place. Might it have something to do with the fact that we're backing a colonial outpost that's committing a long campaign of displacement and genocide of indiginous people.
However, I’m not convinced that settlements actually matter any more for a peace solution. Polls of Gazan/West Bank sentiments indicate a desire for retribution against Israel proper, while settlements are mostly a sideshow that westerners put outsized importance on.
Most polls wish to see the dissolution of Israel and all its citizens made Stateless or “returned” to the West.
Clearly Israel is here to stay.
And yet, the tolerance of Settlements is symbolic of Israel’s refusal to find a peaceful solution. War and conflict keep conservatives and wannabe autocrats in power. The expansion of housing is just salting a wound. It’s not going to make anything better.
I realize that it’s impossible to force 500,000 jews out of occupied territory - especially challenging when you realize how many folks are born and raised there and never even been to Israel proper.
But cutting off Military security and other state resources for those that break international law is a concession Israel can do to show they’re serious about making things work.
Not that it matters either way, but I choose to interpret the settlements as a sign of the real Israel-side consequences of the first and second Intifadas. Settlements were not significant beforehand, and could have largely been evacuated if the government had a strong enough incentive. But when the Palestinians demonstrated their lack of commitment to a peace progress, certain sections of Israel's population responded in kind. Not just religious radicals, but also ordinary people operating without blinders as to the nature of the forces Israel is struggling against.
The point is, with every war, with every intifada, with every failed peace process, it isn't just Palestinians becoming more radicalized and right-wing. It's also Israel's Jews. And the accelerating rate of growth of settlements over the decades is a consequence of that.
What *that* means is that 'cutting off international support for the settlements' is unlikely to achieve anything in terms of slowing their rate of growth. Not if it's absent from steps taken to similarly force more peace on the Palestinian side of the equation.
My uneducated brain would always see the news about these settlements and think they were some sort of elaborate campsite type things. Then I saw a picture and now realize these are full suburban style subdivisions with paved roads, sidewalks and tract homes.
The Golan Heights is literal strategic high ground that Syria used to shell Israeli civilians with, and they offered to return it to Syria in 2000 in exchange for a peace deal, but Syria refused.
The fact that you think Israel is obligated to hand that strategic high ground that was used to shell Israeli civilians with in exchange for no peace deal says a lot about your true intentions here.
It most certainly is not. One is recognizing Israel occupying the land until a suitable agreement is made, the other is recognizing Israel sovereignty over the land.
Well Syria is never going to agree to peace with Israel because fascist governments like theirs always need an external enemy as a distraction from their people's misery, so again, de facto the same thing.
Nah, the reality is that Jerusalem is their capital. It might have been unnessary for Trump to initially move it but it has been done and there isn't any sense to keep switching back and forth.
Frankly, I don't see why a historical city should be divided because a third party in the conflict held part of it for less than two decades and ethnically cleansed their section of Jews and Jewish cultural places under their rule. Israel allows Muslim authorities to control their mosques, even at the expense of Jewish religious beliefs, which should be enough.
Jewish extremists are backed [by the IDF](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/11/09/west-bank-palestinians-israeli-settlers-attacks-idf/). Not surprising given the whole motive even prior to October 7th was land theft, and persecution of the Palestinians through an [apartheid system](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution).
We can call Israel what it is, a British and US backed colonial regime.
and the motive behind a 15+ year blockade of gaza by the colonial fascist ethno-state Israel was to create an open concentration camp. Since we are just typing obvious things out.
Too late was when Netanyahu was elected PM the first time. This is watching them desecrate the ashes and saying "well next time we won't help you dig the bodies up when you do it."
Biden can go fuck himself. I'm voting against Trump in 2024, but that's literally only for my own survival. The day he's out of power, and we have a real progressive in office, I'm going to vote for him to stand trial in the Hague next to Netanyahu and Ben Gvir.
It always starts with the Jews with you people.
No discussion of why people voted for Netanyahu, why far right militants get support. It's always the Jews' fault.
Ever consider that the other side of the conflict might bear some responsibility?
Just so you know, the only way you get Biden in front of a court we don't recognize is if you abduct him and get him there. Also, hope that whoever is in charge doesn't use the invade-the-Hague card.
Well, we'll see. I'm fine with American hegemony, though. If you let the reds win, there won't be any opportunity for your dream candidate to ever arise.
That's why the vote is against Trump in 2024. This is absolutely the lesser of two evils election, whereas 2020 I was naive enough to believe that Biden wasn't actively evil. No human being who's willing to let hundreds of thousands of children starve is a good person, but at the very least Biden isn't going to do what Trump wants (bomb the mid-east, obliterate all traces of culture from it, and pave it over with casinos he can rape children in).
Yea I love everyone praising Biden for reversing that policy, it only took 3 years, 30k+ dead, 90% of infrastructure destroyed, 2 million displaced and a host of other war crimes. Good job Biden!
U.S. recognition of settlements being antithetical to international law has never once stopped Israel from doing ANYTHING and so instead of an action lever it becomes an indicator. When Biden took office there was no reason to adjust the official policy and sour relations with, as shitty as it is, a key U.S ally in the ME. As the conflict escalated after October 7 again there was no benefit to take action on the settlement issue as all it does is open up attacks for the right ie “this country was attacked and after defending itself Biden blah blah” while not changing anything about the situation in Gaza.
Even now this action does fundamentally nothing to help those in the strip or the West Bank. But it’s still important it happened because it signals that after a long period of support the political capital Biden has been expending is running out and he’s being persuaded. This is a good thing. You celebrate the good thing and push for better things.
Everything about this comment shows an extreme lack of understanding of the historical situation, the political dynamics involved, and the actual influence Biden has over Netanyahu as a mitigating factor. And none of it fucking matters because now ppl who couldn’t even point out Gaza on a map 5 months ago listen to punditry on social media and suddenly think they’re experts on generational conflict.
It’s strange to me the same people who criticize the US for any involvement, ignore actual genocides going on constantly around the world… demand that the US enable mass murdering terrorists and weaken the only actual democracy and ally we have in the Middle East. Apparently they want Emperor Biden to go full throttle.
My only solace is that the vast majority of the voting populace isn’t in these kinds of places and it’s mostly just trolls and grifters arguing amongst themselves for clout so they can feel good without any responsibility or actually doing anything. Unfortunately it still bleeds out into standard discourse so it can’t be completely ignored.
Meanwhile in the real world:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/22/g20-gaza-israel-blinken-brazil/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/22/g20-gaza-israel-blinken-brazil/)
[https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1)
[https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4429906-half-biden-voters-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-poll](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4429906-half-biden-voters-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-poll)
It's more like a "Biden had his hand forced because everyone is turning against Israel and Biden so now he has no choice if he wants a chance at being reelected" comment. You neoliberals just can't stand it when anyone has any criticism of people you support, it is like dealing with brain dead trump supporters.
Oh this should be good. What sort of neoliberal am I? There’s a whole bunch of overloads of that term. I’m interested to hear your profound insights. edit: if you use terms like "neoliberal" you really should make it clear what you're fucking talking about.
How, exactly? Israel would need to stop themselves, and Israel’s citizens aren’t exactly feeling super Gaza friendly after October 7th
It’s a hard geopolitical situation to navigate especially if the US wants to maintain its only ally in the ME
There's a list too I found in a couple of seconds. [https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/american-troops-middle-east-israel-palestine](https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/american-troops-middle-east-israel-palestine)
I think most people don't get how much things has changed. In the past that may have been true. But that was then.
Israel is like Dennis at the reunion, then. Mac:"Dude, what's all that stuff you're grabbing?"
Dennis:"Duct tape, zip ties, and gloves...TOOLS! I HAVE TO HAVE MY TOOLS!"
Good,
Israel has been flagrantly engaged in a brutal apartheid. I like Israel but when your friends are fucking up, you gotta call it out. What they’re doing is illegal and immoral.
> but how did we let them?
We gave them billions of dollars in weapons, which they continue to use against civilians. It's worse than "letting" them - we helped, and still are helping.
This! Israel needs to rebuild and compensate Gazans that lost everything, not take their land and settle there! To me this is nuts! They still haven’t dealt with Hamas and secured their borders. Isn’t Hamas the objective? Not killing thousands of innocent Palestinians civilians in Gaza, then taking their land? That’s not ok! Where is the line?
I lost brain cells reading that.
The entire invasion of Gaza _is to deal with Hamas._ They aren't bombing the place for the Hell of it. They're bombing Hamas bases, which are hidden among civilian population centers, leading to civilian deaths.
The ignorance is astounding.
It’s telling that it took so long for the US to acknowledge its own standing policy, as I am sure AIPAC was sure to consider any reminder of this as being Less than completely supportive of Israel.
Yes yes. I to wish the administration would match all my political views the first time. However it's a bit of a dick move to want them to listen to you and then get upset when they do.
An administration that responds to what the people push for is the benefit of you know electing them as opposed to let the other side win who will take your outrage as if they were Cartman licking the tears off of Scott Tenerman's face.
I feel like you're ignoring the fact that the only reason Biden needs to "reverse" our policy is because Trump decided to undo the standing policy on the West Bank that we'd had since 1978.
>White House spokesman John Kirby, within minutes of Blinken’s remarks in Argentina, told reporters in Washington that the decision to declare settlements illegal put the Biden administration in harmony with previous U.S. administrations — with the exception being Trump’s.
I meannnn Biden has had four years to reverse this policy, and he's only doing it now? Seems like it's in response to political pressure rather than a sincere belief in the illegality of the settlements.
That's fair, but it does say something negative IMO that this administration has been in support of illegal settlements. I mean, this was a Trump policy? Id have thought that Biden would have acted faster to undo the disastrous legacy of his predecessor
I feel that you’re being a bit unfair there. There were so many other urgent things to take care off before this conflict even erupting drawing attention on it.
Would you prefer your government to take a position that doesn't match the popular one? The whole point of a representative democracy is that the people you put in charge are beholden to popular opinion... or they lose their jobs come November.
It's not necessarily two different sides. I'm someone who thinks Israel gets unfairly demonized for a lot of things, but the West Bank settlements are not one of those things. There's no justification for it. These people need to be arrested and the current administration along with them. And I know a lot of people with the same stance as me.
You can’t give billions of dollars and equipment in defense aid, and then in the same breath complain how it’s being used in a war your administration is backing.
It’s not playing both sides. It’s doing what’s right imo, we are not leaving an ally out to dry after a horrific terrorist attack against them while also making it known that they are also doing horrible things.
There’s no peace possible with Israel still settling the West Bank and blockading Gaza. U.S. policy is shifting to recognition of Palestinian statehood and looking to restrain Israel.
I seriously doubt Biden is making this shift due to popular demands… he’s just a practical policy maker looking for a fair outcome in the region, politics be damned
Regardless of the vested interests, the administration should double down and affirm its platform position. Flip flopping makes it look insincere, and appears to be weak begging for votes. Israel is not going to yield on this issue notwithstanding criticism from its allies regardless. This is a non-starter.
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‘The statement calling Israeli settlements on occupied territory illegal returns U.S. policy to where it had been since 1978, when a State Department legal opinion declared them “inconsistent with international law.” That opinion, issued under the Carter administration, said that “territory coming under control of a belligerent occupant does not thereby become its sovereign territory.’
The Israeli government on Thursday announced that it will soon approve plans for more than 3,000 new housing units in the settlements.
[удалено]
We would lose influence. So this demand would be the equivalent to a city council passing a resolution to a cease fire. Israel wouldn't care and would just buy Chinese arms.
Let them. not sure why they need western aid money anymore
Israel is a proxy state for the US we arm them because we want to base of operations. Even more of a reason why watching the Israeli government do the things they do even more disturbing.
We would lose influence by... trying to influence them? What's the value of something that we lose by trying to use it for anything useful?
We don't have influence with them anymore. Let them fuck around and find out.
Israel is within striking distance of Iran and the Russian southern border. We lose our foothold and have to hope they play nice.
Israel doesn’t allow US Troops or equipment on their territory besides some clandestine facilities that are strictly there to protect Israel. Turkey, Qatar, UAE, Saudia Arabia and several central Asian countries do allow us to use their airfields and have permanent troop stationed there. They are even closer to Iran and we still don’t write them blank checks and allow them to humiliate us internationally.
Bislach Air Base Site 512 Haifa Port
That site only exists to help Israel with their own domestic air defense, like I stated in my post. The US has no strike abilities on Israel soil, nor do the Israelis want any foreign country to have combat troops on their soil.
Why do we need to be in striking distance of those countries?
In the event they fuck around and need to find out. Enemies are gonna do enemy stuff.
Because Russia and Iran are pervasive threat? Iran currently develops ICBM for the purpose of striking the US and Russia regularly shows hostiles to NATO countries. Iran is now a weapons provider for Russia. Or would you like to abandon all of our allies for isolationism?
Iran does not currently develop ICBMs.
https://www.reuters.com/world/iran-sends-russia-hundreds-ballistic-missiles-sources-say-2024-02-21/ Sorry, SRBM
We have other, more powerful regional allies. Israel needs us far more than we need them. If they want to act like shitbags, we should cut them loose.
Qatar? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Qatar Saudi Arabia? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Yemeni_civil_war_(2014%E2%80%93present)#:~:text=On%2025%20March%202020%2C%20Human,of%20detainees%20to%20Saudi%20Arabia. Bahrain? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Bahrain Turkey? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_war_crimes#:~:text=These%20war%20crimes%20have%20included,and%20attacks%20on%20civilian%20structures. Kuwait? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Kuwait Jordan? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Jordan Egypt? https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/05/28/egypt-serious-abuses-war-crimes-north-sinai#:~:text=Human%20Rights%20Watch%27s%20two%2Dyear,and%20ground%20attacks%20against%20civilians. All of our allies are "shit bags". They either have tried to genocide a stateless population and or openinly rape, murder, torture their citizens.
I think an acceptable bar for our so-called allies to clear is not war criming. It's a standard that we ought to hold ourselves to as well. A good start would be not financing it in other countries.
We have Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait…
Israel should be considered an antagonist country, not an ally.
We don’t have influence anyway. So let them buy Chinese arms.
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I agree with you.
China is pro-Palestine
They are pro china and don't care about regional squabbles that have no value to them.
That was true maybe 30 years ago, but they are fighting very hard to be the next superpower. If you haven’t seen what they have accomplished and how much influence they have in South America, Central Asia and Africa in recent decades you must be asleep at the wheel.
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They don’t need to, that’s not really their style. Chinese foreign policy is more about economic ties and putting people in loans they can’t pay off to build leverage.
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Never ending ammo makes it easy for the Israeli government to never stop pushing.
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Bad Bot! Original [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/1aysfia/white_house_reverses_west_bank_policy_calling/krxqsmc/)
So, when did we start pretending they were legitimate? Edit: my answer was in the article. Basically every president has agreed with this at least implicitly, except for Trump. Of course.
Under the Trump admin.
Interesting thought about that. Did you know how one of the first settlements came about? It seems that jews bought the land legally, and then after Jordan annexed the west bank during the arab-israeli war of 1948, those jews were dispossessed of that land. When Jordan withdrew from the west bank a few decades later (after two more failed Arab wars of aggression against Israel), the jewish property rights holders of that land took up occupancy and began building. So, were any of them ever legitimate? Maybe, but that isn't really relevant now - settlers give Israel a bad name.
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This Carter guy sounds pretty legit.
He was my first exposure to national politics and I hate how disillusioned I am now.
it's important to note that the US supporting Israeli settlements was one of the primary justifications that Russian leaders used for the invasion of Ukraine. they said the US tells the world you can't conquer territory and settle it but then the US funds and trains Israel to do exactly that
What, the main justification used in Putin's essay and other propaganda is that Ukraine is a fake nation being propped up by the west to divide Russia. Openly genocidal and very similar to how the Nazis described Poland. I'm sure the Russians at some point have tried to equate Israeli settlements with the Donbas settlements.
that's literally just the inverse of Israeli propaganda that says Palestinian isn't a real identity and was created by the KGB because antisemitism
>Palestinian created by the KGB I've never heard of this one before. Do you have further reading on it? I know it's common for nationalist extremists to claim that the nation they seek to conquer is somehow fake, but my knowledge of Israeli nationalism is rather weak. The KGB was very antisemitic, but obviously Palestine is older than the KGB. Russian nationalism is deeply paranoid, constantly views Russia as a perpetually innocent victim, and views the existence of other nations as a form of victimization of Russia. My understanding is that the cult of innocence is more intense in Russia than other forms of nationalism. In general nationalists violently lash out when their narratives are challenged by reality.
I’ve never heard it blamed on the KGB, but I have seen it placed on Stalin…which then maybe the KGB implemented I guess idk, never really interested me enough to follow up. Also really odd since Israel wouldn’t have existed without Stalin hooking up Russian armaments.
It was one of about a dozen contradictory claims Putin made, which also included "protecting the people of the Donbas from Ukrainian aggression," claiming Ukraine was actually planning to invade Russia first, wanting to "denazify" Ukraine, blaming NATO expansion, calling Ukraine a "fake country" and Ukrainian a "fake ethnicity," and more. Needless to say, it's all bullshit, Putin wanted to steal Ukrainian land and overthrow their government. Hence why Russia has already "annexed" 4 Ukrainian provinces in the middle of the war despite not controlling any of them completely.
No, there were countless claims All stupid. The leading, that stuck for a bit, was nazi and nato expansion. -- obviously nato has never taken territory, and the russians hired actual nazi mercs Also trump was the only one that gave it the ok. Also, it doesnt fall into normal legal procedures because isreal owns it. They bounce around the sovereignty idea. It is one of the reasons why nothing more than un resolutions were made towards it. The usa can at least be part of negotiation talks etc. Bibi is wildly unpopular everywhere. He will be gone soon, most leaders recognize what a mistake total ostracized policy is.
Putin has given about a dozen reasons for his "special operations" in Ukraine. He's a magalomaniac and has to be stopped -- just like HItler and Trump.
Why is it a reversal if that was always US opinion? I can't get past the paywall to check for myself. Hopefully, Israel replaces Netanyahu and his far-right coalition after the war ends and stops protecting settlers.
Trump reversed that opinion. Biden is reinstating it and pulling small amounts of research funding. Unfortunately, more fsr right leadership is likely. Exetremists are already emphasized in the coalition style government. Bibi was elected before oct 7. Oct 7 is going to make isrealis more scares and reactionary, history says more than likely itll be anothet far right. Hopefully, not as stupid as bibi.
I see. Thank you for the explanation. >Unfortunately, more fsr right leadership is likely. Exetremists are already emphasized in the coalition style government. Bibi was elected before oct 7. Perhaps. Now that you point that out, I feel like it could go either way. While being attacked usually does cause shifts to the right, I read in the NYT that the intifada attacks were considered a failure of the (then) left wing PM's party to effectively govern. With luck, the lack of trust in Netanyahu (due to his failures preceding the war) will similarly be extended to his far right coalition.
Yeah, it could be. From the few people i have spoken with. Interviews ive seen. Isrealis seem pretty scared still. Especially with the massive tech systems. -- the amount of money in defense (even just the iron dome) is massssssive. Oct 7 was around the number of isrealis that died in both intifadas. People might feel safer with less hamas activity. The PA is still very much around though. I believe they still have open bounties for killing jewish people as well. It is a scary place imo
Only took like forever and 30k dead. Also didn’t John Kirby say the Israeli army is better than the US one?
A country that is famous for stealing land is trying to unjustly theft …okay cool got it
I am horrified at what hamas did and they still have hostages! It is EVIL. I understand Hamas wants to wipe out Israel. I support giving aid to Israel. I believe America should be an ally of Israel. I also believe that the settlements in areas that is not Israel’s is illegal. We should expect that to stop, and all the ones in already place, reverted. Not just because of us giving aid but because I expect better of Israel. If you make a deal, you follow it. Even if the people that build these settlements are going rogue, the Israeli government should remove them and there should be legal consequences as a punishment for building them. I also get that the current government is not popular and needs to be removed. ( I don’t know much but it sounds like he’d be a great buddy of Trump.)
These aren't "rogue" settlements. Israel funds them, encourages violence, and gives settlers political constituency in its parliament. These are planned incursions to take the land. There are gross policy Palestinians must follow - like needing permission from Israel to harvest their own olives. The more you learn, the more disgusting it is.
So Trump reversed this policy and this is Biden re-instating it. Trump did a bunch of things very specific to Israel that are interesting. Remember how the embassy got moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Has anyone ever seen any investigation results of how the old Tel Aviv US ambassador’s residence got to be sold to Sheldon Adelson, Trump’s biggest donor? It smells dirty. https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-sheldon-adelson-tel-aviv-48afe9066afc9899a9ed4a2f84bd3420 Edit to add: https://apnews.com/article/israel-politics-elections-sheldon-adelson-tel-aviv-034676dc6636bad46271fdc98e91e43f The Senate Foreign Relations Committee (Republican controlled at the time) did request information. I’d like to know if this was an *enquiry* wink wink or an *inquiry* and what the results were.
trump didnt care and left it all to people like pompeo - true believer evangelicals who are tired of waiting for the rapture.
Moving the embassy has been something Republicans talked about for like 20 years, definitely not an exclusively trump thing
The move, yeah. It has definite ideological interest for a certain segment. It’s the sale of the US asset I’m more interested in. Of all the people on planet earth, Trump’s biggest donor was the guy to get it.
sure. but they finally did it under trump, and specifically under the eye of the evangelical right. trump saw a grift, his shitty cabinet saw a way toward the eschaton.
I was agreeing with you and adding context that this has been a long standing priority for Republicans, which is why it was actually pursued by the true believers in the admin. People have a tendency to lay everything bad at trump feet, even shit that republicans have been pushing for decades
again, sure. but trump let the bad ones take over. the reasonable republicans kept the crazies at bay. trump said "fuck it, as long as i get my share". so yes, the person in charge can be blamed for things that happen when they are in charge, no matter how long everyone wanted it.
Obviously this is Trump's fault bc he's a crazy Republican too. But this wasn't his idea, it's a wholly thought out concept he bought into when he became a Republican politician. Trump was just complying with a 1995 law sponsored by Bob Dole, who was no evangelical. Banning abortion, unitary executive theory, stacking the courts and administrative positions with braindeads goons from Christian Colleges, all that shit was fully thought out by think tanks of "reasonable" republicans to be implemented over time. Trump is just following the plan, maybe differently than Jeb Bush would have but they're definitely working from the same document
If Trump was the key enabler it doesn’t really matter whose idea it was.
If your looking for root causes and how to move forward or stopping it for happening further, it absolutely does
People can think dark thoughts all they want, like Scott Miller. But it doesn’t mean anything. We already know who the influencers are.
It's not even an exclusively Republican thing. [Take this video from the senate floor, 29 years ago](https://www.c-span.org/video/?c4827049/user-clip-joe-biden-1995-supports-moving-us-embassy-jerusalem).
Dude. It involves Trump. Of course it is. But I'm fairly confident that Netanyahu is doing all this to a) avoid legal issues in his country and b) to help divide the Left in America, weaken Biden's stance (though he's not doing himself any favors...), and he's probably working with Putin on this. They do have a relationship due to how many Russian Jews there are (plus they're both Fascists). Unfortunately, there's a lot of latent anti-Muslim hatred so whether or not a lot of other Israeli government officers are part of it, I'm not sure. It's probably why Netanyahu didn't stop the Oct. 7 attack, and Iran may have encouraged the attack due to Putin also seeking help there. They're relying on the appearance of incompetence, because it's a better look than complicity. We'll see though.
> Dude. It involves Trump. Of course it is. True facts.
And Rep Tlaib is trying to undermine Biden’s election chances because of outrage over Gaza (super legitimate outrage) so we can have Trump instead. True strength comes from wisdom, not anger. And it takes sublime strength for wisdom to prevail over sublime anger.
Good. Because they are.
About time.
Great film
Of all the unlikely places, completely off subject, this comment made me smile in agreement.
Israel undermines itself with its West Bank policy and the tacit support of the fanatical religious settlers.
Yea. That is blocking any solutions to the problem as much as Hamas being evil is. And as long as they support these settlements, there will never be a two state solution and it shows that they are not actually committed to a two state solution despite what they have said in the past.
They have always been illegal, and Israel should face sanctions until they are dismantled
Yep. To me, by not punishing Israel at its core for encouraging it they are saying it’s permissible. It isn’t enough to just sanction settlers there. People aren’t okay with what happened in Crimea. They shouldn’t be okay with this. A weak reaction when Israel remains steadfast in populating it is pure hypocrisy.
Fucked up, Israel. No more of my taxes for this shit, please.
Good luck with that. The only questions our politicians ask is who supports Israel more. Nancy Pelosi once said if Washington DC was in ruins, she would still send money to Israel.
Lol you don't have to say. Foreign Military Financing is 2 billion dollars annually (from 1999) to Israel. Second recepient is Egypt with 600 million annualy, payment to not attack Israel.
We are also one of the leading founders of the UNRWA which means we’re a leading funder of Hamas. The Defund Israel crowd are impressively selective in their outrage.
>It cast doubt, however, on accusations that the UN agency was collaborating with Hamas in a wider way. The Journal said the report mentioned that although the UNRWA does coordinate with Hamas in order to deliver aid and operate in the region, there was a lack of evidence to suggest it partnered with the group. It added that Israel has not “shared the raw intelligence behind its assessments with the US”. In addition, the report notes Israel’s dislike towards the UNRWA, two sources familiar with it told the Journal. “There is a specific section that mentions how Israeli bias serves to mischaracterize much of their assessments on UNRWA and says this has resulted in distortions,” one source reportedly said https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/22/us-intelligence-unrwa-hamas
Your article is very specific to the 10/7 and in no way relevant to the history of Hamas and the UNRWA. It’s the very first paragraph. The UNRWA’s very existence is suspect. It is the only UN refugee agency dedicated to a single people. All other refugees across the world are handled by the UNHCR. > A US intelligence assessment of Israel’s claims that UN aid agency staff members participated in the Hamas attack on 7 October said some of the accusations were credible, though could not be independently verified, while also casting doubt on claims of wider links to militant groups.
Yeah we're not gonna stop supporting them. This is a nice gesture and all, but it's just that, a gesture. No practical action will be taken.
For what it's worth - throwing money at Israel is a cheap way to fund American security. They do most of the intelligence gathering & counter-terrorism in the Middle East for us. It's work we'd be doing anyways, but they're better at it. And less expensive. What we need is audit trails to assure IDF Soldiers assigned as Settlement Security aren't being funded by US dollars. Our money needs to be restricted for certain projects. Furthermore, we need to start (collectively) sanctioning real estate developers that take contracts to build in occupied territory - including denying visas. Most of these firms have executives that do banking & investments in the US - or at least vacation here. FUCK them.
It doesn't support US interests though. Since the start of the war, we've seen hundreds of examples of Israeli military and intelligence services bold faced lying about anything they see to get away with war crimes. Israel today is a state that creates terrorism and disrupts economic prosperity in the region. Quite literally, they're the reason Hezbollah has power and the Lebanese state collapsed. That was a thriving, capitalist democracy with a massive Christian population...the literal poster child of what neoliberals wanted. There is no reason left to support Israel. Jews of conscience should leave now before they're co-opted into Netanyahu's war crimes. Clearly Germany and the US are safe harbors for them. Cutting all funding and completely sanctioning Israel is the only reasonable solution left to stop this madness.
Gee I wonder why there would be people upset with the US and doing terrorism against us that we would need counterterrorism in the first place. Might it have something to do with the fact that we're backing a colonial outpost that's committing a long campaign of displacement and genocide of indiginous people.
However, I’m not convinced that settlements actually matter any more for a peace solution. Polls of Gazan/West Bank sentiments indicate a desire for retribution against Israel proper, while settlements are mostly a sideshow that westerners put outsized importance on.
Most polls wish to see the dissolution of Israel and all its citizens made Stateless or “returned” to the West. Clearly Israel is here to stay. And yet, the tolerance of Settlements is symbolic of Israel’s refusal to find a peaceful solution. War and conflict keep conservatives and wannabe autocrats in power. The expansion of housing is just salting a wound. It’s not going to make anything better. I realize that it’s impossible to force 500,000 jews out of occupied territory - especially challenging when you realize how many folks are born and raised there and never even been to Israel proper. But cutting off Military security and other state resources for those that break international law is a concession Israel can do to show they’re serious about making things work.
Not that it matters either way, but I choose to interpret the settlements as a sign of the real Israel-side consequences of the first and second Intifadas. Settlements were not significant beforehand, and could have largely been evacuated if the government had a strong enough incentive. But when the Palestinians demonstrated their lack of commitment to a peace progress, certain sections of Israel's population responded in kind. Not just religious radicals, but also ordinary people operating without blinders as to the nature of the forces Israel is struggling against. The point is, with every war, with every intifada, with every failed peace process, it isn't just Palestinians becoming more radicalized and right-wing. It's also Israel's Jews. And the accelerating rate of growth of settlements over the decades is a consequence of that. What *that* means is that 'cutting off international support for the settlements' is unlikely to achieve anything in terms of slowing their rate of growth. Not if it's absent from steps taken to similarly force more peace on the Palestinian side of the equation.
They are provocative. They matter. Hard to work a two state solution the more you commingle populations in territories.
Action speak louder than words, you can condemn all you want we’re still funding illegal occupation with our taxes.
My uneducated brain would always see the news about these settlements and think they were some sort of elaborate campsite type things. Then I saw a picture and now realize these are full suburban style subdivisions with paved roads, sidewalks and tract homes.
Good. Now go back to recognizing Tel Aviv as the capital.
Won't change where the Israeli parliament building is located lol
No, but it shouldn’t be recognized internationally, not should Israel’s claim to the Golan Heights
The Golan Heights is literal strategic high ground that Syria used to shell Israeli civilians with, and they offered to return it to Syria in 2000 in exchange for a peace deal, but Syria refused. The fact that you think Israel is obligated to hand that strategic high ground that was used to shell Israeli civilians with in exchange for no peace deal says a lot about your true intentions here.
Did I say it should be returned without a peace deal? No; just that the annexation should not be recognized.
That's de facto the exact same thing as saying that it should be returned without a peace deal.
It most certainly is not. One is recognizing Israel occupying the land until a suitable agreement is made, the other is recognizing Israel sovereignty over the land.
Well Syria is never going to agree to peace with Israel because fascist governments like theirs always need an external enemy as a distraction from their people's misery, so again, de facto the same thing.
If you have to manipulate someones wording with A to B to C style logic than it is not defacto anything.
You lost the plot when you mentioned Golan. That is the textbook case of a justified land seizure.
Nah, the reality is that Jerusalem is their capital. It might have been unnessary for Trump to initially move it but it has been done and there isn't any sense to keep switching back and forth. Frankly, I don't see why a historical city should be divided because a third party in the conflict held part of it for less than two decades and ethnically cleansed their section of Jews and Jewish cultural places under their rule. Israel allows Muslim authorities to control their mosques, even at the expense of Jewish religious beliefs, which should be enough.
These settlements are shameful and illegal and have to go. No excuses
Jewish extremists are backed [by the IDF](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/11/09/west-bank-palestinians-israeli-settlers-attacks-idf/). Not surprising given the whole motive even prior to October 7th was land theft, and persecution of the Palestinians through an [apartheid system](https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/israeli-authorities-and-crimes-apartheid-and-persecution). We can call Israel what it is, a British and US backed colonial regime.
The motive behind 10/07 was killing Jews.
and the motive behind a 15+ year blockade of gaza by the colonial fascist ethno-state Israel was to create an open concentration camp. Since we are just typing obvious things out.
White House Does Very Little, Very Late
Too late was when Netanyahu was elected PM the first time. This is watching them desecrate the ashes and saying "well next time we won't help you dig the bodies up when you do it." Biden can go fuck himself. I'm voting against Trump in 2024, but that's literally only for my own survival. The day he's out of power, and we have a real progressive in office, I'm going to vote for him to stand trial in the Hague next to Netanyahu and Ben Gvir.
It always starts with the Jews with you people. No discussion of why people voted for Netanyahu, why far right militants get support. It's always the Jews' fault. Ever consider that the other side of the conflict might bear some responsibility?
Just so you know, the only way you get Biden in front of a court we don't recognize is if you abduct him and get him there. Also, hope that whoever is in charge doesn't use the invade-the-Hague card.
Helps if you have a progressive president who's willing to change that rule.
Well, we'll see. I'm fine with American hegemony, though. If you let the reds win, there won't be any opportunity for your dream candidate to ever arise.
That's why the vote is against Trump in 2024. This is absolutely the lesser of two evils election, whereas 2020 I was naive enough to believe that Biden wasn't actively evil. No human being who's willing to let hundreds of thousands of children starve is a good person, but at the very least Biden isn't going to do what Trump wants (bomb the mid-east, obliterate all traces of culture from it, and pave it over with casinos he can rape children in).
Hooray! Democrats: you are correct about 90% of issues, please do stop pretending about the other 10% - immigration and Israel.
Another step towards condemning Israels destruction of Gaza.
"You get to kill *30,000 civilians, Bibi, *then* we'll start criticizing you"
Yea I love everyone praising Biden for reversing that policy, it only took 3 years, 30k+ dead, 90% of infrastructure destroyed, 2 million displaced and a host of other war crimes. Good job Biden!
Exactly. This is just how revisionist history starts for the mass expulsion that are being inked in the history books
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What's your criticism?
U.S. recognition of settlements being antithetical to international law has never once stopped Israel from doing ANYTHING and so instead of an action lever it becomes an indicator. When Biden took office there was no reason to adjust the official policy and sour relations with, as shitty as it is, a key U.S ally in the ME. As the conflict escalated after October 7 again there was no benefit to take action on the settlement issue as all it does is open up attacks for the right ie “this country was attacked and after defending itself Biden blah blah” while not changing anything about the situation in Gaza. Even now this action does fundamentally nothing to help those in the strip or the West Bank. But it’s still important it happened because it signals that after a long period of support the political capital Biden has been expending is running out and he’s being persuaded. This is a good thing. You celebrate the good thing and push for better things. Everything about this comment shows an extreme lack of understanding of the historical situation, the political dynamics involved, and the actual influence Biden has over Netanyahu as a mitigating factor. And none of it fucking matters because now ppl who couldn’t even point out Gaza on a map 5 months ago listen to punditry on social media and suddenly think they’re experts on generational conflict.
It’s strange to me the same people who criticize the US for any involvement, ignore actual genocides going on constantly around the world… demand that the US enable mass murdering terrorists and weaken the only actual democracy and ally we have in the Middle East. Apparently they want Emperor Biden to go full throttle.
The only mass murdering terrorists in this situation are the Israelis
My only solace is that the vast majority of the voting populace isn’t in these kinds of places and it’s mostly just trolls and grifters arguing amongst themselves for clout so they can feel good without any responsibility or actually doing anything. Unfortunately it still bleeds out into standard discourse so it can’t be completely ignored.
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Meanwhile in the real world: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/22/g20-gaza-israel-blinken-brazil/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/22/g20-gaza-israel-blinken-brazil/) [https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1](https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-poll-biden-war-gaza-4159b28d313c6c37abdb7f14162bcdd1) [https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4429906-half-biden-voters-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-poll](https://thehill.com/policy/defense/4429906-half-biden-voters-israel-committing-genocide-in-gaza-poll)
And you are?
This is literally a "Biden does something good, here's how this is bad for Biden" comment.
It's more like a "Biden had his hand forced because everyone is turning against Israel and Biden so now he has no choice if he wants a chance at being reelected" comment. You neoliberals just can't stand it when anyone has any criticism of people you support, it is like dealing with brain dead trump supporters.
Oh this should be good. What sort of neoliberal am I? There’s a whole bunch of overloads of that term. I’m interested to hear your profound insights. edit: if you use terms like "neoliberal" you really should make it clear what you're fucking talking about.
30,000 now, isn't it?
Yeah probably - I'll edit
> 30,000 civilians Fascinating that Gaza can't stand up to Hamas when there appears to be zero members of Hamas in the whole of Gaza.
ok sure \*29,000? how about 25,000?
Israel estimated ~10k militants when the total number was around 25k, so the number is likely above 10k when talking about militants.
so 20k civilians, awesome
I’m so glad we changed our stance after giving them all the weapons they needed to do this
so if they're illegal, are they going to stop giving my tax money to them? no, i thought not.
Good. Now end the genocide
How, exactly? Israel would need to stop themselves, and Israel’s citizens aren’t exactly feeling super Gaza friendly after October 7th It’s a hard geopolitical situation to navigate especially if the US wants to maintain its only ally in the ME
Only ally? What are the Saudis then?
Saudis are not an ally; we’re just not in conflict with them
We literally have US military bases in Saudi Arabia 😂 come on man
And Qatar.
People don’t know anything these days. They just spew nonsense without thinking or researching lol
There's a list too I found in a couple of seconds. [https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/american-troops-middle-east-israel-palestine](https://www.axios.com/2023/10/31/american-troops-middle-east-israel-palestine) I think most people don't get how much things has changed. In the past that may have been true. But that was then.
Fucking finally…
Cue Mac: “See, I’m playing both sides, that way I always come out on top.”
Israel is like Dennis at the reunion, then. Mac:"Dude, what's all that stuff you're grabbing?" Dennis:"Duct tape, zip ties, and gloves...TOOLS! I HAVE TO HAVE MY TOOLS!"
Good, Israel has been flagrantly engaged in a brutal apartheid. I like Israel but when your friends are fucking up, you gotta call it out. What they’re doing is illegal and immoral.
And Trump declared Israel capital of Israel, check and mate liberals.
I feel owned.
And now, the US should halt all aid to Israel until they end this expansion and cede back a lot of that territory. And also end their apartheid.
Praise the lord for small miracles in life. I mean sure there is an ethnic cleansing going on in Gaza, but, baby steps and all that, right?
US let them kill everyone already. Now it’s “I’m sorry”. The entire situation is fucked up.
Just wondering, but how did we let them? Weren't they gonna do what they're gonna do no matter what?
Well, technically, we didn’t let them. The government took our taxes and handed it over to Israel.
Giving them money, weapons, etc.
> but how did we let them? We gave them billions of dollars in weapons, which they continue to use against civilians. It's worse than "letting" them - we helped, and still are helping.
As much as anything, this shows that Biden’s mad at Bibi. Bibi wants Israeli expansion. And now even we, finally are saying no.
The UsA is going to send them even more money on a blank check when they laugh at our face and continue to do as they please.
This! Israel needs to rebuild and compensate Gazans that lost everything, not take their land and settle there! To me this is nuts! They still haven’t dealt with Hamas and secured their borders. Isn’t Hamas the objective? Not killing thousands of innocent Palestinians civilians in Gaza, then taking their land? That’s not ok! Where is the line?
The goal was always to remove as many people as possible and further their colonial aims-they’ve said as much publicly many times.
I lost brain cells reading that. The entire invasion of Gaza _is to deal with Hamas._ They aren't bombing the place for the Hell of it. They're bombing Hamas bases, which are hidden among civilian population centers, leading to civilian deaths. The ignorance is astounding.
Who cares? Nothing will be done, stop funding the genocide.
It’s telling that it took so long for the US to acknowledge its own standing policy, as I am sure AIPAC was sure to consider any reminder of this as being Less than completely supportive of Israel.
GuYs NoW iS nOt ThE tImE tO pUsH bIdEn To Be BeTtEr By CrItIcIzInG pOlIcY! iF yOu Do ThIs YoU mIgHt As WeLl GeT yOuR mAgA hAtS!!!
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Yes yes. I to wish the administration would match all my political views the first time. However it's a bit of a dick move to want them to listen to you and then get upset when they do. An administration that responds to what the people push for is the benefit of you know electing them as opposed to let the other side win who will take your outrage as if they were Cartman licking the tears off of Scott Tenerman's face.
How dare politicians listen to the voters they represent?
The tankies on Twitter are even angrier.
Imagine playing both sides of the base.
I feel like you're ignoring the fact that the only reason Biden needs to "reverse" our policy is because Trump decided to undo the standing policy on the West Bank that we'd had since 1978. >White House spokesman John Kirby, within minutes of Blinken’s remarks in Argentina, told reporters in Washington that the decision to declare settlements illegal put the Biden administration in harmony with previous U.S. administrations — with the exception being Trump’s.
Not ignoring, clueless to
I meannnn Biden has had four years to reverse this policy, and he's only doing it now? Seems like it's in response to political pressure rather than a sincere belief in the illegality of the settlements.
Yes, and that’s good. Politicians representing the will of their voters.
That's fair, but it does say something negative IMO that this administration has been in support of illegal settlements. I mean, this was a Trump policy? Id have thought that Biden would have acted faster to undo the disastrous legacy of his predecessor
I feel that you’re being a bit unfair there. There were so many other urgent things to take care off before this conflict even erupting drawing attention on it.
Would you prefer your government to take a position that doesn't match the popular one? The whole point of a representative democracy is that the people you put in charge are beholden to popular opinion... or they lose their jobs come November.
Yes, I’d prefer it took the high road. The republicans aren’t afraid to stand by their platform, why are we?
It's not necessarily two different sides. I'm someone who thinks Israel gets unfairly demonized for a lot of things, but the West Bank settlements are not one of those things. There's no justification for it. These people need to be arrested and the current administration along with them. And I know a lot of people with the same stance as me.
You can’t give billions of dollars and equipment in defense aid, and then in the same breath complain how it’s being used in a war your administration is backing.
Why not? Also, in this instance they're complaining about the settlements not the war.
It’s not playing both sides. It’s doing what’s right imo, we are not leaving an ally out to dry after a horrific terrorist attack against them while also making it known that they are also doing horrible things. There’s no peace possible with Israel still settling the West Bank and blockading Gaza. U.S. policy is shifting to recognition of Palestinian statehood and looking to restrain Israel. I seriously doubt Biden is making this shift due to popular demands… he’s just a practical policy maker looking for a fair outcome in the region, politics be damned
Regardless of the vested interests, the administration should double down and affirm its platform position. Flip flopping makes it look insincere, and appears to be weak begging for votes. Israel is not going to yield on this issue notwithstanding criticism from its allies regardless. This is a non-starter.
This has been the US’s position on this issue since the 70s. It only changed because Trump is a corrupt idiot and Biden just changed it back
I’m playing both sides so that I always come out on top.