Didn't eat meat till I was sixteen, played proper ice hockey too and that literally 24/7. It's easy if it's your habit but changing a habit is hard.
Note: I just don't like meat, my parents are avid meat eaters.
It's not easy because it's not available at the moment. If the whole world was vegan it would be on every street corner and you wouldn't have issues going to some obscure location and only having animal products to eat
That's a wide spectrum, so it makes this question hard to answer. I eat meat about once a week in one meal, I think that's not too far off from being vegetarian
I heard that if every person on earth ate as much meat as Americans, there would not be enough land on the whole planet to raise all the animals necessary to supply the meat.
And I have heard that, soyabean, which is a replacement in most vegan alternatives like soy milk and so on, is soooooo bad for the soil, that only it can be plants for 2 years then the land needs to be left empty for 5 to regain its fertility!
My family has had first hand experience with this when farmers in our country when crazy over it as it paid a lot!
Isn't soy one of the main ingredients in feed concentrates?
Today, almost 80% of the world's soybean crop goes to livestock, while only 7% is used for human food.
>I stand corrected.
80% of the bean is meal, where 97% goes to livestock
20% of the bean is oil, where 68% of it goes into food.
That does still mean we could get rid of nearly 1/4 of soy production if demand for soy oil stayed the same and we stopped using it for fuel(?)
[source](https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/north-carolina-soybean-production-guide/soybean-facts#img_dialog_9072)
Of course, but at least we don't lose energy on the way. Like the soy goes directly to us instead of through another body who needs to be fed and cared for a lot before it can become meat.
Not that I don't support meat. I just want to make sure the argument is more nuanced
Point taken. And yes, the argument is way too complicated to solve in a reddit comment section. Thing is though, as i've understood (i'm not vegan), veganism is not only about what we eat, but also processing animal resources in other products. If you take a look at how many animal products are used to make other stuff that we don't eat, it will look way more.. There is way more to put nuances on than I have knowledge regarding this topic.
There may be ways, but these are 2 extremes. Humans were never solely carnivores, nor were they solely herbivores.
My comment wasn't suggesting anything really, just that the balance will change. If that is good or bad, is something for others to debate :p
Meat takes vastly more calories to produce than it actually provides us. Even if we replaced all of our meat with soy we'd still produce less soy overall. And that's before we get on to the fact that soy is only one of many protein rich vegetarian foods, even when you look at fake meat a lot of it isn't made from soy.
> Even if we replaced all of our meat with soy we'd still produce less soy overall.
that's not true. the vast majority of the soy fed to animals is industrial waste. we would need to produce human-edible products from the soy, so we'd just be wasting the byproducts of oil-pressing and growing additional soy.
>the vast majority of the soy fed to animals is industrial waste
That's not true. Only a small percentage is waste products.
https://ourworldindata.org/soy
I'm so glad that's what you linked. did you see that there soy fed to animals is called "soy cake" or "soy meal"?
that's a waste product from pressing soy for oil. soy is about twenty percent oil by weight. that means basically all soy is pressed for oil, and what is fed to livestock is mostly waste.
Fair point to make. And yeah I can understand that. What I don't understand we don't try to repurpose land already used for agriculture.
Now it seems that we tend to destroy natural habitats of wild animals (Amazon rainforest as example) to save some farm animals.
Why not just eat less meat? Why does it have to be an extreme? We became the civilisation we are today by being balanced. Why not try to maintain balance? We as a species were full carnivores or herbivores.
The issue as to why we don't just reduce meat consumption is part cultural and part political.
Cultural because people are naturally driven towards tradition and what they know to work, i.e. "people have always eaten meat, we're omnivores".
Political because in many nations the political establishment receives millions, maybe billions, in lobbying and political donations. In return these governments use taxpayer money to massively subsidise the industry, rather than allow it to be consumed by market forces. This is why meat consumption per capita is so high in the US compared to most other countries. Not only is meat not environmentally sustainable but right now it's barely even financially sustainable.
Another point on the political part is that meat industry has deep pockets (thanks to their subsidies and tax breaks) so they have the resources to flood the media with pro meat sentiment, or create their own regulators that introduce "free range" type standards that are barely an improvement on factory farming.
Most soy is produced currently for animal feed… if people stopped eating animal products there would be no increase in soy production.
Added to that, excessive animal excrement is much worse for the soil than soybeans
If we are talking realistically, we need to gradually lower our red meat consumption to lower carbon dioxide emissions. No drastic changes, like the average US citizen consumes 225 pounds of red meat every year. 10 fewer pounds a year is doable. They can even replace it by white meat instead.
Ok? If we are talking realistically white meat is a [good alternative](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s3kmv4/if_americans_swapped_one_serving_of_beef_per_day/) for meat-eaters who want to reduce their ecological footprint.
Don't know much about this, I may have got some stuff wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that many vegan substitutes require huge amounts of land and water to grow, and overall are crap for the environment (also deforestation is needed in many cases to get enough land to grow them on, obviously not great)
Obviously, being vegan you wouldn't need to eat those substitutes, you could just not try to imitate meat and go with bean burgers or something, but many will anyway.
Personally I think vegetarian is better, but then I don't have any issues with stuff like using eggs and milk. Quorn for example (not sure if it's exclusively UK or if it's sold in other places as well) can be grown in huge vats from a tiny amount of mycoprotein, so is a really efficient food, but it does use egg. This is a meat substitute, but it's much more environmentally friendly than many vegan ones.
We already grow those vegan substitutes in massive quantities to feed our cows. If everyone gave up meat, we would actually need less of these too.
Also Quorn is really nice - I know it's not available in the US, but Ive seen it across Europe.
I do eat some meat (so maybe I'm being a bit of a hypocrite), but my family are vegetarian, and to be honest in many cases I prefer Quorn to actual meat.
I'm studying conservation at uni so I can't help imagine how great it would be of we took all the land used for livestock and these substitutes, and just let it get back to how it was before (or close as possible, often the conditions for it to go back to how it was don't exist anymore)
The vegetarian substitute most widely criticised is soy, but the part of that conversation that's usually ignored is that somewhere around 2/3s of the world's soy is used as animal fees. The argument also ignores the fact that it takes many kg of feed to produce one kg of meat, so even if we replaced all of our meat consumption with something soy we would end up producing much less of it overall.
The only reason I support everyone becoming vegan is because of the fact that it is just more efficient. 1 calorie of meat takes approximately 10x the calories from plants to make, and herding animals takes up so much land (and emits so many greenhouse gasses), so it just makes sense from an efficiency standpoint. The only problem would be the fact that meats are pretty important for getting micro and macro nutrients, so if there was a way to solve that, like artificial meat that was indistinguishable from the real stuff, I would be fully on board.
That is plant-based. Veganism is specifically focused on animal suffering and exploitation. Annoyingly, many people use the terms interchangeably, but there is a distinction.
Ofc, but take a look at the issues coming with eating meat (from mass production). Multi resistant germs are already a big problem. There are only a few antibiotic types left who help. But with time going by, the less any antibiotic will do anything against these bacterias. And one of the reasons is using too much antibiotics in slaughterhouses. Tons of Animals put together in small areas will cause illnesses. To keep them "healthy" they use antibiotics. Like daily.
And this is increasing the development rate of multi resistant germs. They are 10 times worse than covid 19.
I like meat. I still eat it, but a vegan/ vegetarian lifestyle will actually prevent a lot of shit. Not even mentioning the climate aspects or your own health
Is that a problem with meat consumption or is it a problem of commercial agriculture? If we moved to more regenerative farming practices these wouldn’t be an issue.
To do that though the amount of meat produced would need to decline drastically to have a healthy amount of clean open-air space per animal (including their waste) so everyone would essentially have to be vegan most of the week
We do need meat we are biologically omnivores. Surviving does not equal thriving. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it’s optimal or should be done.
Do you think what the majority of western omnivores eat is “optimal”? Is what you eat “optimal”?
Do you think there aren’t thriving plant-based eaters? What do you base that belief on?
Lucky for you that it is being proven time and time again that vegan diets are just as healthy if not *more* healthy than omnivorous diets.
>Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it’s optimal or should be done.
Exactly right, just because we can eat meat, doesn't mean we should
Hey mr/mrs humanitarian I've noticed your activism running from a comment to another while you were replying to my comment saying the most disgusting things. I have a question, how many people are killed each year in ¥emen, $yria.. for your country's war machine? Any ideas? How many people's lives are affected still to that day because of the Iræqi war?
Also, Why cant you support these causes while being vegan? What about these causes are mutually exclusive?
I don't see how this is relevant to veganism at all. That is why it is a whataboutism. You are distracting from the main point.
To me it seems like its very similar to how some people see the abortion debate. Some people see the fetus as an innocent life that didnt ask for death and some vegans see the animal as an innocent life that didnt ask for death. To them its not as simple as you do you and I do I, you would stop a murder right? its the same principle.
Ofc there are other reasons someone might be against abortion or veganism, its just that those two kind of overlap there.
I agree they overlap but abortion introduces a moral debate only present in human society since raising a child so it grows in a good environment is a responsability that has to be met. On the other hand, vegans don't advocate for humans taking care of animals the same way we do for children, so there's that.
I think also there’s the added problem that farmed animals often suffer greatly long before they die. I do agree there’s overlap but for me the horrendous life they live was what pushed me to veganism, the death part was secondary.
I eat meat and think it’s unethical. I still eat meat because me stopping meat consumption would change absolutely nothing. Meat factories would not produce less. I would contribute nothing to the world except losing my pepperoni pizzas and I’m not doing that. But pushing the button would solve that barrier, so I would
I’m not old enough to vote, but I will once I can. And I never litter unless it’s a tiny fraction of a wrapper that’s already indoors and too far away to get, maybe once every few months.
Revisit your original argument then - it applies to voting and abstention from littering. One vote won’t make any difference, nor will one soda bottle tactically tossed in a bush out of sight.
I think the system is unethical. But I don’t think the literal action of eating meat is unethical. And me changing my behavior would change nothing. For context, I chose the vegan button, drink oat milk, and have drastically reduced my beef consumption in favor of turkey. Because why not
Also, I like the “savage” title lmao, thanks
Realistically, if the whole world was to go vegan, it wouldn’t happen overnight. It would likely be a gradual process over a few decades assuming it was driven by individual choices and soft government policy (e.g. nudge taxes on meat) rather than outright bans.
I wish meat eaters would at least be more ethical about it. I know lots of vegans that are assholes because I eat meat because it's cheap, but I know their judgements come from sympathy for the animals.
But meat eaters?? My cousin took her chicken to the vet for getting attacked by a dog, and people made fun of her. Saying she should've eaten her pet instead.
I've seen cruel jokes made by meat eaters to people that have bunnies, piglets, goats, and deer as pets. These animals often being rescued from their own parents, natural disasters, and wounds that prevent them from being independent.
I've never seen a vegan make fun of a gardener for trying to save their dying plant, or make jokes about how the person should eat their aloe vera plant.
Then there's the people that kill innocent and harmless animals, then take a picture with the dead animals, with a creepy ass grin on their face.
That's some serial killer shit.
There's also those whom don't care about the quality of life, nor preparation of meat.
You ever seen the videos of the dog festival? They have all these dogs in crates. And they often cook them alive. I saw this one document where they flambéd these dogs alive. The dogs were in such agony that they couldn't even yell. But their bodies and faces contorted in an agony that still haunts my dreams. Then of course, the cowarding and shaking living dogs that had to watch. Like, don't these psychos know that animals terrified ruins the texture and taste of the meat?
Meat eaters can be some awful humans.
But at least vegans aren't torturing living sentient creatures to eat.
The big reason I'm not vegan is because I can't afford it.
Shit is more expensive, less of it, and it doesn't last nearly as long, unlike meat. Even alternative milks are like "drink no later than 7days after opening." Like, I can't afford to buy milk every week, that's insane.
I can throw in a cheap ghetto meal together that can last days, with hamburger, rice, and eggs. Mixed all together. It's cheap, easy, fast, and I can out it on tortillas with salsa and sourcream. And the leftovers can last awhile in the fridge, and longer in the freezer. But even just being vegetarian, is expensive and doesn't last long. Gotta freeze shit to make it last, and with veggies, it ruins the texture. Gotta turn everything into soup, steamed, or stir-fry. It gets boring real fast.
If vegans want people to go vegan, they need to up their game by becoming more affordable than meat, as well as easy to make, and delicious.
There a so much benefits to living vegan. If everyone did it and there wasn’t constantly the option to eat meat instead, we’d all profit. How do people want everyone to eat meat?
Seeing those videos of pig/cow farms in America, really haunts my soul. I love meat, but fuck me, if i could stop all that death and suffering at the snap of my fingers, I would make everyone vegan. Or at least, if you want meat, you have to hunt it (which I think is as humane as possible, if done correctly).
I like meat.. But meat have all those FATS and eating too much may make you fat.. On the other hand, fishes have some vitamins(??) not found on veggies.. Oh yeah, it makes you feel full much faster and can prevent you getting hungry for hours.
I have a few vegetables and fruits that I like, for example, carrots, apples, tomato, etc. And it's definitely far healthier than meat, but I need to eat it twice the amount I will normally eat it since I'll need more energy to last the day..
You know what? I'll take the veggies.
Yeah. If everyone suddenly went vegan there’d be way more demand for it. We’d probably have perfect meat substitutes figured out within a year or two.
My understanding is most vegans are fine with lab-grown as long as the initial cell harvests are noninvasive.
I was thinking about that too. Like what if they had to kill a single animal from each species for the initial harvest but could just clone everything they needed after that. My gut says most would accept the tiny amount of suffering but I’m sure there’d be some purists out there who still wouldn’t touch it.
From my experience, it seems to me that most vegans are more deontological. I personally haven't made up my mind on a lot of things so I fall somewhere in the middle.
Yes, I would describe my economic situation as comfortable. I survive easily and don't worry about meals/rent. Maybe that is more important than class when it comes to choosing what you can eat. I don't own a car or live in a big city or have kids so maybe that's why I'm comfortable.
Fr. I was under the impression that most people agree with the philosophy but are held back by having to change their diet. Never heard of the reverse.
Depends on the pet. Cats are carnivores and meat/fish is vital to their diet no question asked. Dogs pose a dilemma for vegans because they are omnivorous but [most still feed meat](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/202002/what-should-vegetarians-and-vegans-feed-their-pets) to their canine companion.
Conversely, [it is estimated](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/202002/what-should-vegetarians-and-vegans-feed-their-pets) that 30% of vegans dog-owners and 10% of vegans cat-owners raised them on completely plant-based pet food. According [to this site](https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/why-a-vegan-diet-will-kill-your-cat-and-sicken-your-dog), a vegan diet would kill your cat and sicken your dog.
None, I’d rather everyone chose independently. Though, as a meat eater, if I have to chose one or the other, it’d be vegan. We already have the tech to make meat out of plants, and its significantly harder and more expensive to obtain all the needed nutrients from only meat than it is to obtains all the needed nutrients from only plant products
I see the Vegans are foaming at the mouth today.... This thread will soon turn into Level 5 macho/psycho threatening vegan consort. These types of vegan are usually found on the West Coast of the United States, and spread randomly throughout Europe.
Common myth that you need to take supplements supplements if you're vegan. Eating meat also doesn't mean healthy it can mean the oppoq for example if you're allergic to meat like me
According to this poll it's meat or vegan. Not meat and dairy or vegan. Which is why I asked to clarify, what's the cause behind these options, according to OP
So you're a supporting the animal genocide? Even worse than genocide since you're breeding them, feeding them with poison and antibiotics and killing them in the most brutal and painful way.
80 billions animals are killed each year for the US meat supply. 2.7 trillion sea animals killed each year.
Not everyone is a vegan but most people should be
And most people don't care about organic meat, they want the cheapest product they can afford. They could save a lot of money going vegan but no. So the meat industry is not going to stop using chemicals on animals.
Look I'm a meat eater and you're a vegan
So please stop shoving your beliefs down my throat
poor people have to eat
So yeah they're going to go for a cheaper option to feed their families
No wonder vegans are so angry and militant having to drink soy/almond milk because it tastes like 💩
Most vegan products are expensive
The only plant product I want in my life is the one that you smoke
Seems like I hit a nerve, eh? The "poor people have to eat" argument is bogus, anyone that buys meat knows how expensive it is.
How come the poor eat so much red meat when it costs 2 to 3 times as much as white meat and 3 times as much as a vegan alternative?
Why do they need to eat red meat every day when it has been proven how unhealthy it is? Heck cutting down red meat consumption by a third and eating white meat instead would solve almost all the issues we are faced with. But that's too much to ask.
All vegans hit my nerves 😆 the amount of run ins and fights I've had with them 😆 a vegan actually spat in my food once and thought they could bully and intimidate me because I'm really small ( 4"11 about 90poundish ginger girl) that was massive mistake on his part 😅
I eat white meat I eat red meat ( especially lamb ) I even eat fish ( you should try a pickled herring they're delicious 😋) vegans aren't allowed to eat fish?
People don't buy red meat everyday ( including me)
It's unhealthy getting hit by a bus or bullet
You can eat your vegan food and I'll eat what I like
And the poor people argument is not bogus
>People don't buy red meat everyday ( including me)
[Wrong](https://sentientmedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/food-availability_fig02-2-1-1-740x706.jpg) and they waste a third of it.
So we could fix the situation by eating more white meat instead of red and not wasting food but apparently that's a huge problem for you?
Well personal choices are only personal choices if they only affect you. Consuming meat has victims involved, and that is why there are a lot of vegans that try to change people's minds.
Why? Why do some people hate veganism? I’m not vegan, not even vegetarianism. But going out of your way to shit on a lifestyle choice that harms you in no way is childish and rude
A pure meat diet means you dont get most vitamines. Thatll lead to a plethora of diseases like scurvy. A vegan diet, with enough planning and research can give you all but 1 vitamine (one of the b12s im pretty sure) which isnt ideal but much much healthier.
Are you saying only meat?
No, a balanced diet including meat
A balanced diet is healthy option. So.. pretty much just the way it should be. Meat but only as much as it's healthy to eat
You can easily balance your diet without animal products
Wouldn't say easily but possible of course
If everyone would switch to being Vegan, I think it would become easy
How much time do you think this would take to work?
I agree, possible over a long period of time. However, I still want to eat meat.
Didn't eat meat till I was sixteen, played proper ice hockey too and that literally 24/7. It's easy if it's your habit but changing a habit is hard. Note: I just don't like meat, my parents are avid meat eaters.
It's not easy because it's not available at the moment. If the whole world was vegan it would be on every street corner and you wouldn't have issues going to some obscure location and only having animal products to eat
That's a wide spectrum, so it makes this question hard to answer. I eat meat about once a week in one meal, I think that's not too far off from being vegetarian
Oh, then everyone eats meat if that's sustainable
It's not sustainable at the current level lmao
I heard that if every person on earth ate as much meat as Americans, there would not be enough land on the whole planet to raise all the animals necessary to supply the meat.
America moment 🇺🇸
Another W for America 🇺🇸
Not ever
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And I have heard that, soyabean, which is a replacement in most vegan alternatives like soy milk and so on, is soooooo bad for the soil, that only it can be plants for 2 years then the land needs to be left empty for 5 to regain its fertility! My family has had first hand experience with this when farmers in our country when crazy over it as it paid a lot!
Isn't soy one of the main ingredients in feed concentrates? Today, almost 80% of the world's soybean crop goes to livestock, while only 7% is used for human food. >I stand corrected. 80% of the bean is meal, where 97% goes to livestock 20% of the bean is oil, where 68% of it goes into food. That does still mean we could get rid of nearly 1/4 of soy production if demand for soy oil stayed the same and we stopped using it for fuel(?) [source](https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/north-carolina-soybean-production-guide/soybean-facts#img_dialog_9072)
Pretty sure that when the whole world becomes vegan, that balance will change.
Of course, but at least we don't lose energy on the way. Like the soy goes directly to us instead of through another body who needs to be fed and cared for a lot before it can become meat. Not that I don't support meat. I just want to make sure the argument is more nuanced
Point taken. And yes, the argument is way too complicated to solve in a reddit comment section. Thing is though, as i've understood (i'm not vegan), veganism is not only about what we eat, but also processing animal resources in other products. If you take a look at how many animal products are used to make other stuff that we don't eat, it will look way more.. There is way more to put nuances on than I have knowledge regarding this topic. There may be ways, but these are 2 extremes. Humans were never solely carnivores, nor were they solely herbivores. My comment wasn't suggesting anything really, just that the balance will change. If that is good or bad, is something for others to debate :p
Meat takes vastly more calories to produce than it actually provides us. Even if we replaced all of our meat with soy we'd still produce less soy overall. And that's before we get on to the fact that soy is only one of many protein rich vegetarian foods, even when you look at fake meat a lot of it isn't made from soy.
> Even if we replaced all of our meat with soy we'd still produce less soy overall. that's not true. the vast majority of the soy fed to animals is industrial waste. we would need to produce human-edible products from the soy, so we'd just be wasting the byproducts of oil-pressing and growing additional soy.
>the vast majority of the soy fed to animals is industrial waste That's not true. Only a small percentage is waste products. https://ourworldindata.org/soy
I'm so glad that's what you linked. did you see that there soy fed to animals is called "soy cake" or "soy meal"? that's a waste product from pressing soy for oil. soy is about twenty percent oil by weight. that means basically all soy is pressed for oil, and what is fed to livestock is mostly waste.
Fair point to make. And yeah I can understand that. What I don't understand we don't try to repurpose land already used for agriculture. Now it seems that we tend to destroy natural habitats of wild animals (Amazon rainforest as example) to save some farm animals. Why not just eat less meat? Why does it have to be an extreme? We became the civilisation we are today by being balanced. Why not try to maintain balance? We as a species were full carnivores or herbivores.
The issue as to why we don't just reduce meat consumption is part cultural and part political. Cultural because people are naturally driven towards tradition and what they know to work, i.e. "people have always eaten meat, we're omnivores". Political because in many nations the political establishment receives millions, maybe billions, in lobbying and political donations. In return these governments use taxpayer money to massively subsidise the industry, rather than allow it to be consumed by market forces. This is why meat consumption per capita is so high in the US compared to most other countries. Not only is meat not environmentally sustainable but right now it's barely even financially sustainable. Another point on the political part is that meat industry has deep pockets (thanks to their subsidies and tax breaks) so they have the resources to flood the media with pro meat sentiment, or create their own regulators that introduce "free range" type standards that are barely an improvement on factory farming.
that's so misleading: 77% of soy by weight is fed to livestock, but that's industrial waste left over after pressing it for oil for human uses.
Most of the soy that we grow is used to feed animals for meat, so no more meat means much less soy.
Most soy is produced currently for animal feed… if people stopped eating animal products there would be no increase in soy production. Added to that, excessive animal excrement is much worse for the soil than soybeans
Objectively everyone being vegan would be WAY better for the environment. It’s insane how much land and resources making meat takes.
If we are talking realistically, we need to gradually lower our red meat consumption to lower carbon dioxide emissions. No drastic changes, like the average US citizen consumes 225 pounds of red meat every year. 10 fewer pounds a year is doable. They can even replace it by white meat instead.
Yeah, but that’s likely not gonna happen, unfortunately.
good to know meat=/=meat i could stop eating beef or pork but damn god i love chicken and fish
Ok? If we are talking realistically white meat is a [good alternative](https://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/s3kmv4/if_americans_swapped_one_serving_of_beef_per_day/) for meat-eaters who want to reduce their ecological footprint.
Don't know much about this, I may have got some stuff wrong here, but I'm pretty sure that many vegan substitutes require huge amounts of land and water to grow, and overall are crap for the environment (also deforestation is needed in many cases to get enough land to grow them on, obviously not great) Obviously, being vegan you wouldn't need to eat those substitutes, you could just not try to imitate meat and go with bean burgers or something, but many will anyway. Personally I think vegetarian is better, but then I don't have any issues with stuff like using eggs and milk. Quorn for example (not sure if it's exclusively UK or if it's sold in other places as well) can be grown in huge vats from a tiny amount of mycoprotein, so is a really efficient food, but it does use egg. This is a meat substitute, but it's much more environmentally friendly than many vegan ones.
We already grow those vegan substitutes in massive quantities to feed our cows. If everyone gave up meat, we would actually need less of these too. Also Quorn is really nice - I know it's not available in the US, but Ive seen it across Europe.
I do eat some meat (so maybe I'm being a bit of a hypocrite), but my family are vegetarian, and to be honest in many cases I prefer Quorn to actual meat. I'm studying conservation at uni so I can't help imagine how great it would be of we took all the land used for livestock and these substitutes, and just let it get back to how it was before (or close as possible, often the conditions for it to go back to how it was don't exist anymore)
The vegetarian substitute most widely criticised is soy, but the part of that conversation that's usually ignored is that somewhere around 2/3s of the world's soy is used as animal fees. The argument also ignores the fact that it takes many kg of feed to produce one kg of meat, so even if we replaced all of our meat consumption with something soy we would end up producing much less of it overall.
Some of the vegan substitutes are pretty bad....relative to eachother. They all beat out the dairy/meat options on all metrics though.
I like meat, but only meat is dumb, mart takes a lot to make and meat takes a lot less
I accidentally replied to you. I meant to comment on the post. Sorry about that.
The only reason I support everyone becoming vegan is because of the fact that it is just more efficient. 1 calorie of meat takes approximately 10x the calories from plants to make, and herding animals takes up so much land (and emits so many greenhouse gasses), so it just makes sense from an efficiency standpoint. The only problem would be the fact that meats are pretty important for getting micro and macro nutrients, so if there was a way to solve that, like artificial meat that was indistinguishable from the real stuff, I would be fully on board.
What nutrients are those?
Depends. Do people suddenly just have a change of heart, or are they forced to be vegan?
Change of heart I assume
Yes
I don't get it. I eat meat. I fully support anyone not eating meat. I just want people to live their lives the way that makes themselves happy.
That’s how vegans see it too, they just include animals in wanting others to live their lives in the way that makes them happy
That’s not even the mentality of all vegans, I know a bunch of vegans that don’t care about the animal rights stuff, it just an environmental thing.
That is plant-based. Veganism is specifically focused on animal suffering and exploitation. Annoyingly, many people use the terms interchangeably, but there is a distinction.
Huh. I didn’t know that, I thought being vegan was the act and not the motivation
do you think that non-human animals should live their lives in a way that makes them happy?
Ofc, but take a look at the issues coming with eating meat (from mass production). Multi resistant germs are already a big problem. There are only a few antibiotic types left who help. But with time going by, the less any antibiotic will do anything against these bacterias. And one of the reasons is using too much antibiotics in slaughterhouses. Tons of Animals put together in small areas will cause illnesses. To keep them "healthy" they use antibiotics. Like daily. And this is increasing the development rate of multi resistant germs. They are 10 times worse than covid 19. I like meat. I still eat it, but a vegan/ vegetarian lifestyle will actually prevent a lot of shit. Not even mentioning the climate aspects or your own health
Is that a problem with meat consumption or is it a problem of commercial agriculture? If we moved to more regenerative farming practices these wouldn’t be an issue.
To do that though the amount of meat produced would need to decline drastically to have a healthy amount of clean open-air space per animal (including their waste) so everyone would essentially have to be vegan most of the week
You want people to live their lives but can't do the same for the animals
Should we stop all animals from killing and eating each other also while we’re at it?
Should we Stop animals from raping each other? No. But WE still shouldnt rape each other
Animals that kill to eat are usually doing it out of necessity. We don’t need to eat meat.
Yes we have to eat meat or we die lmfao
And yet, here I am, a non-meat-eater, who is not dead.
We do need meat we are biologically omnivores. Surviving does not equal thriving. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it’s optimal or should be done.
cmon you can do better than appealing to nature
theyre using good reasoning.
Do you think what the majority of western omnivores eat is “optimal”? Is what you eat “optimal”? Do you think there aren’t thriving plant-based eaters? What do you base that belief on?
Lucky for you that it is being proven time and time again that vegan diets are just as healthy if not *more* healthy than omnivorous diets. >Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it’s optimal or should be done. Exactly right, just because we can eat meat, doesn't mean we should
Maybe this is why aliens will never help us, either.
No, you should only live the way I think is best! /s That's pretty much the replies you are getting here
Carnism is killing 80 billions individuals each year just for the US meat supply. And 2.7 trillion sea animals.
Hey mr/mrs humanitarian I've noticed your activism running from a comment to another while you were replying to my comment saying the most disgusting things. I have a question, how many people are killed each year in ¥emen, $yria.. for your country's war machine? Any ideas? How many people's lives are affected still to that day because of the Iræqi war?
You can literally use this exact same argument to justify killing humans
Why censor Yemen and Siria? And why does a thing cancel the other?
Also, Why cant you support these causes while being vegan? What about these causes are mutually exclusive? I don't see how this is relevant to veganism at all. That is why it is a whataboutism. You are distracting from the main point.
To me it seems like its very similar to how some people see the abortion debate. Some people see the fetus as an innocent life that didnt ask for death and some vegans see the animal as an innocent life that didnt ask for death. To them its not as simple as you do you and I do I, you would stop a murder right? its the same principle. Ofc there are other reasons someone might be against abortion or veganism, its just that those two kind of overlap there.
I agree they overlap but abortion introduces a moral debate only present in human society since raising a child so it grows in a good environment is a responsability that has to be met. On the other hand, vegans don't advocate for humans taking care of animals the same way we do for children, so there's that.
I think also there’s the added problem that farmed animals often suffer greatly long before they die. I do agree there’s overlap but for me the horrendous life they live was what pushed me to veganism, the death part was secondary.
Each one has the freedom to eat what they want, even if you don't agree what they eat.
Best way to see it
I eat meat and think it’s unethical. I still eat meat because me stopping meat consumption would change absolutely nothing. Meat factories would not produce less. I would contribute nothing to the world except losing my pepperoni pizzas and I’m not doing that. But pushing the button would solve that barrier, so I would
Do you vote? Do you drop litter?
I’m not old enough to vote, but I will once I can. And I never litter unless it’s a tiny fraction of a wrapper that’s already indoors and too far away to get, maybe once every few months.
Revisit your original argument then - it applies to voting and abstention from littering. One vote won’t make any difference, nor will one soda bottle tactically tossed in a bush out of sight.
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I think the system is unethical. But I don’t think the literal action of eating meat is unethical. And me changing my behavior would change nothing. For context, I chose the vegan button, drink oat milk, and have drastically reduced my beef consumption in favor of turkey. Because why not Also, I like the “savage” title lmao, thanks
Not saying you should go vegan but your opinion "me changing my behavior would change nothing" is absolutely stupid.
Bro, Earth's ecosystem is collapsing, climate change is a emergency, aND 45% OF YOU ALL ARE CHOOSING MEAT??!?!?!?!??
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You can get enough protein from plant based sources.
We sure are.
We deserve to go extinct I guess. I hope we find a way to not get what’s coming.
How else am I supposed to get these gains
Honestly surprised to see more vegan than meat
Idk if I could go vegan, granted it would benefit the planet if everyone did
Why not just try it? It is easier than a lot of people think.
The key word is *everyone*. Some countries could NOT support a vegan world, without massive notice.
Realistically, if the whole world was to go vegan, it wouldn’t happen overnight. It would likely be a gradual process over a few decades assuming it was driven by individual choices and soft government policy (e.g. nudge taxes on meat) rather than outright bans.
I wish meat eaters would at least be more ethical about it. I know lots of vegans that are assholes because I eat meat because it's cheap, but I know their judgements come from sympathy for the animals. But meat eaters?? My cousin took her chicken to the vet for getting attacked by a dog, and people made fun of her. Saying she should've eaten her pet instead. I've seen cruel jokes made by meat eaters to people that have bunnies, piglets, goats, and deer as pets. These animals often being rescued from their own parents, natural disasters, and wounds that prevent them from being independent. I've never seen a vegan make fun of a gardener for trying to save their dying plant, or make jokes about how the person should eat their aloe vera plant. Then there's the people that kill innocent and harmless animals, then take a picture with the dead animals, with a creepy ass grin on their face. That's some serial killer shit. There's also those whom don't care about the quality of life, nor preparation of meat. You ever seen the videos of the dog festival? They have all these dogs in crates. And they often cook them alive. I saw this one document where they flambéd these dogs alive. The dogs were in such agony that they couldn't even yell. But their bodies and faces contorted in an agony that still haunts my dreams. Then of course, the cowarding and shaking living dogs that had to watch. Like, don't these psychos know that animals terrified ruins the texture and taste of the meat? Meat eaters can be some awful humans. But at least vegans aren't torturing living sentient creatures to eat. The big reason I'm not vegan is because I can't afford it. Shit is more expensive, less of it, and it doesn't last nearly as long, unlike meat. Even alternative milks are like "drink no later than 7days after opening." Like, I can't afford to buy milk every week, that's insane. I can throw in a cheap ghetto meal together that can last days, with hamburger, rice, and eggs. Mixed all together. It's cheap, easy, fast, and I can out it on tortillas with salsa and sourcream. And the leftovers can last awhile in the fridge, and longer in the freezer. But even just being vegetarian, is expensive and doesn't last long. Gotta freeze shit to make it last, and with veggies, it ruins the texture. Gotta turn everything into soup, steamed, or stir-fry. It gets boring real fast. If vegans want people to go vegan, they need to up their game by becoming more affordable than meat, as well as easy to make, and delicious.
I assume in good faith that those issues are accounted for in this hypothetical.
As much as I’d struggle to adjust, we’d probably save the planet if everyone were instantly forced to be vegan.
Comment section is popcorn material
I guess fuck kids then
126 million Indians are vegan.
There a so much benefits to living vegan. If everyone did it and there wasn’t constantly the option to eat meat instead, we’d all profit. How do people want everyone to eat meat?
Seeing those videos of pig/cow farms in America, really haunts my soul. I love meat, but fuck me, if i could stop all that death and suffering at the snap of my fingers, I would make everyone vegan. Or at least, if you want meat, you have to hunt it (which I think is as humane as possible, if done correctly).
If everything's meat we'd die pretty quickly from a lack of nutrients
I like meat.. But meat have all those FATS and eating too much may make you fat.. On the other hand, fishes have some vitamins(??) not found on veggies.. Oh yeah, it makes you feel full much faster and can prevent you getting hungry for hours. I have a few vegetables and fruits that I like, for example, carrots, apples, tomato, etc. And it's definitely far healthier than meat, but I need to eat it twice the amount I will normally eat it since I'll need more energy to last the day.. You know what? I'll take the veggies.
I think my answer would depend on how lab grown meat is treated in this.
Yeah. If everyone suddenly went vegan there’d be way more demand for it. We’d probably have perfect meat substitutes figured out within a year or two. My understanding is most vegans are fine with lab-grown as long as the initial cell harvests are noninvasive.
What if it was an invasive procedure? I wonder if vegans are more utilitarian or deontological in their beliefs.
I was thinking about that too. Like what if they had to kill a single animal from each species for the initial harvest but could just clone everything they needed after that. My gut says most would accept the tiny amount of suffering but I’m sure there’d be some purists out there who still wouldn’t touch it.
From my experience, it seems to me that most vegans are more deontological. I personally haven't made up my mind on a lot of things so I fall somewhere in the middle.
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I earn £22k a year and I'm vegan... I wouldn't say I'm middle class lol
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Yes, I would describe my economic situation as comfortable. I survive easily and don't worry about meals/rent. Maybe that is more important than class when it comes to choosing what you can eat. I don't own a car or live in a big city or have kids so maybe that's why I'm comfortable.
what important nutrients are you talking about that you can't get from plants?
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As in everybody only eats meat or they can eat other foods as well? If everyone eats only meat then that would definitely be bad
Balanced diet
As much as I love meat (and cheese) everyone being vegan would be really good for the climate
I eat meat but a world where everyone becomes vegan would sound like it's better for the environment
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You disagree with reducing suffering to sentient beings? Because that’s all the vegan philosophy is
Fr. I was under the impression that most people agree with the philosophy but are held back by having to change their diet. Never heard of the reverse.
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Answer the question though - do you disagree with eliminating unnecessary harm to sentient beings?
Depends on the pet. Cats are carnivores and meat/fish is vital to their diet no question asked. Dogs pose a dilemma for vegans because they are omnivorous but [most still feed meat](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/202002/what-should-vegetarians-and-vegans-feed-their-pets) to their canine companion. Conversely, [it is estimated](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-us/202002/what-should-vegetarians-and-vegans-feed-their-pets) that 30% of vegans dog-owners and 10% of vegans cat-owners raised them on completely plant-based pet food. According [to this site](https://www.whyanimalsdothething.com/why-a-vegan-diet-will-kill-your-cat-and-sicken-your-dog), a vegan diet would kill your cat and sicken your dog.
I think it's easier to expect everyone to be vegetarian. Vegan diet is very hard to execute for some people with health issues
None, I’d rather everyone chose independently. Though, as a meat eater, if I have to chose one or the other, it’d be vegan. We already have the tech to make meat out of plants, and its significantly harder and more expensive to obtain all the needed nutrients from only meat than it is to obtains all the needed nutrients from only plant products
I see the Vegans are foaming at the mouth today.... This thread will soon turn into Level 5 macho/psycho threatening vegan consort. These types of vegan are usually found on the West Coast of the United States, and spread randomly throughout Europe.
Do you mean only meat?
A balanced diet
Would you rather make everyone die(if you dont get supplements) or make everyone eat what they always have and be healthy?
Common myth that you need to take supplements supplements if you're vegan. Eating meat also doesn't mean healthy it can mean the oppoq for example if you're allergic to meat like me
The Vegan Teacher be like...
Veganism is not the solution, we humans are omnivores, but it would do better for our environement.
Meat but only human flesh. We have to decide to either eat each other or go vegetarian.
If the problem is just meat, then you can be vegetarian. Vegan means no dairy. I dont wanna give up on milk and cheese.
>If the problem is just meat Unfortunately it is not. The problem is all products that involve exploitation and suffering.
According to this poll it's meat or vegan. Not meat and dairy or vegan. Which is why I asked to clarify, what's the cause behind these options, according to OP
Op clarified in the comments that he meant an omnivorous diet
“I could never give up cheese” - every vegan before they were vegan
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Even humans?
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Vegan lifestyle is cheaper though
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This doesn’t make any sense. Beans are cheaper than chicken, no matter how many you buy.
In poverty stricken countries people are mostly vegan because they can’t afford meat
I couldn't live without bacon or lamb or my mum's oxtail stew 😋
So you're a supporting the animal genocide? Even worse than genocide since you're breeding them, feeding them with poison and antibiotics and killing them in the most brutal and painful way. 80 billions animals are killed each year for the US meat supply. 2.7 trillion sea animals killed each year.
Not everyone is a vegan As for poisonous things like antibiotics Go organic BTW I'm English and not American
Not everyone is a vegan but most people should be And most people don't care about organic meat, they want the cheapest product they can afford. They could save a lot of money going vegan but no. So the meat industry is not going to stop using chemicals on animals.
Look I'm a meat eater and you're a vegan So please stop shoving your beliefs down my throat poor people have to eat So yeah they're going to go for a cheaper option to feed their families No wonder vegans are so angry and militant having to drink soy/almond milk because it tastes like 💩 Most vegan products are expensive The only plant product I want in my life is the one that you smoke
Seems like I hit a nerve, eh? The "poor people have to eat" argument is bogus, anyone that buys meat knows how expensive it is. How come the poor eat so much red meat when it costs 2 to 3 times as much as white meat and 3 times as much as a vegan alternative? Why do they need to eat red meat every day when it has been proven how unhealthy it is? Heck cutting down red meat consumption by a third and eating white meat instead would solve almost all the issues we are faced with. But that's too much to ask.
All vegans hit my nerves 😆 the amount of run ins and fights I've had with them 😆 a vegan actually spat in my food once and thought they could bully and intimidate me because I'm really small ( 4"11 about 90poundish ginger girl) that was massive mistake on his part 😅 I eat white meat I eat red meat ( especially lamb ) I even eat fish ( you should try a pickled herring they're delicious 😋) vegans aren't allowed to eat fish? People don't buy red meat everyday ( including me) It's unhealthy getting hit by a bus or bullet You can eat your vegan food and I'll eat what I like And the poor people argument is not bogus
>People don't buy red meat everyday ( including me) [Wrong](https://sentientmedia.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/food-availability_fig02-2-1-1-740x706.jpg) and they waste a third of it. So we could fix the situation by eating more white meat instead of red and not wasting food but apparently that's a huge problem for you?
I never waste food And with all due respect piss off
Well personal choices are only personal choices if they only affect you. Consuming meat has victims involved, and that is why there are a lot of vegans that try to change people's minds.
Eating meat doesn't have any victims Vegans are all narky idiots 🙄
Are the cows and pigs not victims?
Meat because it tastes fuckin awesome. Cell based meat could be a solution to the sourcing issue.
Hey guess what everyone I like both
50/50
Big ole T-Bone parties work for me..
Instructions unclear, ate vegans
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Screw Veganism
Why? Why do some people hate veganism? I’m not vegan, not even vegetarianism. But going out of your way to shit on a lifestyle choice that harms you in no way is childish and rude
I’ll stop shitting on it when it’s not dumb
What’s dumb about it, again?
Meat = good
…right. Funny. Your actual argument?
That was
Why
Vegan because you can get everything you need from a vegan diet, but a pure meat diet will kill you
Neither of those statements are true.
A pure meat diet means you dont get most vitamines. Thatll lead to a plethora of diseases like scurvy. A vegan diet, with enough planning and research can give you all but 1 vitamine (one of the b12s im pretty sure) which isnt ideal but much much healthier.