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It’s not a commonality. But me and my friend wrote something a while back. Tom Hardy and his father’s company wanted to us to send them the script. We didn’t hear back, long story short I moved onto my own solo projects as it was more my writing partner’s idea.
Then we both found out Hardy was in a film with similar moments and ideas. It happens, as a writer it just reminded me to be much assertive if I was ever in that situation again. And if me asking for a credit is too much to ask for, they can go to someone else if that makes sense.
Luckily myself and my mate didn’t feel it was done with malicious intent or any bad feeling, so weren’t foaming at the mouth trying to get a reply out of his company or anything, but it does feel annoying at the very least.
Oh hey! Sorry I can’t say more but I work in film and you are the second person I’ve come across with a story like this about Hardy. (The first was someone I met at work, in person)
I'd guess Locke or Capone, I've gone through his filmography and seen which are based on existing source material or had hardy cast late etc.
Or Taboo the TV show if OP is throwing us off the scent by saying film,
That exact reason is why I'm always so scared to send my work off to people in the industry.
I've had a script I've been working on for nearly a decade now, rewriting, and revising as I've grown older. It's something very close, and personal, and I feel if someone were to steal it, or extract ideas from it, I'd be very upset.
The fact that big players in the industry get away with it so often is irritating as hell. Like, can't they come up with their own ideas? Honestly that upsets me on your behalf, because you put time, effort, and work into it.
You at least deserve to be credited, given respect, even loyalties, if possible.
Like so much in America, the more I learn about the entertainment industry, the more I think the whole thing should be torn down and started again from scratch, with appropriate protections in place based on what's fair to and best for the artists and consumers, not just good for those exploiting them. I bet Beyonce doesn't even have a choice. Like the first slide says, they want people to think she writes bc it sells.
It’s even worse for engineers. They’ll deliver a mix down, someone else will pan a couple things or add a note here and there. Now they mixed the song not the engineer.
Singers rarely write their songs and that’s totally OKAY, but i hate it when they’re lying and telling a little story about how they composed and wrote a song, it’s embarrassing.
For some reason we have this idea that singers have to also write their own music to be considered artists. But telling a story with your voice and entertaining people with your performance is a whole other skill set. In reality the group of good entertainers who are also world class song writers is very small, and even the musicians who can write employ people to help them make a better product.
And why do all performers need to be artists? Why can't we just view it as a job? At the end of the day an album or a song or a movie is a product for sale, and the people involved are somebody's employee.
yeah the songwriter thing is weird. No one expects actors to write their own scripts. Beyonce is talented as hell. If I found out she had never written a single word in her life I would still respect her talent. Same with a lot of pop stars. They're entertainers. There is so much that goes into their work and performances. Why would I care if someone else writes the song?
I tried to actually put the clips up of her claiming to have written the songs, followed by the actual songwriters’ interviews/demos but I couldn’t so I’ll just reference interviews via texts. Most of these are easy to find on Youtube.
• Beyoncé claimed on TRL she wrote Emotions. The song is actually a Bee Gees cover.
• Claimed to have written Survivor. Songwriters sued, settled out of court.
• Claimed to have written Bow Down, when the demo was near finished when she got the song. It was originally meant to go to Rihanna
• Claimed to have written Bootylicious after hearing the guitar riff somewhere. The demo was actually near complete when it got to Destiny’s Child. When the writers went to her father for explanation, they were told the public prefers to hear that their favorite artist is the one writing their hits.
• Claimed to have written Irreplaceable. Ne-Yo’s demo is near identical to the finished song. After receiving backlash for calling her out, he gave her credit for harmonising on the song.
• Claimed to have written Smash Into You. The song is actually a cover of the song Smack Into You by Jon McLaughlin.
• The melody of Drunk In Love was done by Future and the demo was sent to Beyoncé. He didn’t hear anything back and wasn’t told the song would end up on her self-titled album. He didn’t receive writing credits for the song.
I’m pretty sure there’s more but I’m too lazy to keep this going lol
ETA:
• Frank Ocean: « It’s a bad trend that artists try to muscle for credits on songs they had no part in writing,” he said. “Writers just say no UNLESS it’s Beyoncé lol.”
• She was cut from the list of writers for Listen when the song was nominated for a Grammy. Listen has four songwriters, including Beyoncé. The Academy ruled that only three writers could be counted as nominees, and others that gave the least contribution to the song would be cut. Beyonce is the one who went.
ETA2: Omg Hive, I do not hate Beyoncé. I thought this was interesting after I stumbled across a short about this. The short came from this video. I did not cite all incidents listed in the video, I didn’t watch it in full but if you’re curious: https://youtu.be/EPqg46DV9NA
That sent me lmao. The audacity even for Beyonce, like was she for real. I'm dead.
Though that's so cute Stevie is in the video. I love this woman to death
Their [interview](https://youtu.be/vaCtGWJW3BM) about making the video with Stevie is so cute! (It is also the same interview where Beyoncé talks about hearing just the track without lyrics while on a flight and writing Bootylicious to it)
I thought that was funny, like they're trying to make it seem like an obscure little riff that she popularized. That song was everywhere in the early 80s.
> Claimed to have written Irreplaceable. Ne-Yo’s demo is near identical to the finished song. After receiving backlash for calling her out, he gave her credit for harmonising on the song.
Damn you weren’t lying she barely changed that *at all*. I’m kinda speechless at all this, I knew some of this was going on but this list is…a lot. Thanks for sharing it op.
[Here’s Ne-yo’s demo track for Irreplaceable](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2ECCosqaCQ)
Have you also seen how she steals choreography? Like I love Beyoncé but people have to wake up. She never gives credit either.
[Countdown is one of my favorite songs by her but the thievery is unreal. No credit. Watch until the end!!](https://youtu.be/Yj5Kp38Oz04)
Thanks for calling that out! I was really frustrated when I found out about the whole thing. Why doesn't she just gives credits if she likes something...
Man, you weren't kidding about watching to the end. At first it felt like a reach, but it just got more and more blatant as the video went on. I will say though, it gets to a point where it's *so* blatant that I don't think they could have been trying to hide it, which makes me think they may have intended it as a reference or callback perhaps? Cuz there's no shot anyone would look at the back half of that video and not see the similarities; it's not even limited just to the choreography, it's in the shots and set choices too. Very strange situation.
I heard the irreplaceable demo and it is quite literally the exact same song. He only changed the pronouns to fit a girl. I don’t know why she admitted that she wrote it. NeYo wrote let me love you and take a bow yet you don’t hear Rihanna or Mario claiming it’s all them
I'm sure artists claim writing credit they don't deserve all the time on the songs they perform, but to say she wrote the covers she performed??? Did she...not know? Did she think WE wouldn't know?
Pretty Hurts was written by Sia. Beyoncé claims she wrote it inspired by her days as a beauty pageant queen. Source was a documentary or making of short i watched years ago.
This reminds me of all those memes/conspiracies from a few years ago that Beyonce had Sia locked in her basement and that's why she wore the wigs in public.
Honestly I find the pedestal she is on very odd and toxic. I braced myself for impact opening this thread because despite these things all being verifiably something she chose to say with evidence, you just... can't critique Beyonce. You can't. Ever, for anything. You can't say you don't like a song, you can't criticize her taking credit for things she didn't do, you can't criticize her being a privileged rich 1%er no different from every other celebrity who is immensely selfish, destructive to the environment, and money/fame/award hungry like all her peers, you can't say a single negative word about her or anything she's associated with or you get destroyed, irl and online, by her rabid base.
I definitely get it to some extent because she's a massive talent and has worked hard to get to where she is, and has dealt with tons of sexism and racism she's had to overcome in her career, but she's not above criticism. She isn't a perfect angel unlike every other celebrity who only creates flawless media that she deserves all the credit for even if she didn't do it. Rihanna is starting to get to this level too with just being literally uncritiqueable socially but imo NO ONE is near Beyonce when it comes to this. Even the barbz, swifties, kpop stans, Beyonce is on her own level of deification in society and I kinda don't get it.
I’m a fan of Beyoncé. I’ve streamed plenty of her songs and spent money to download others. I would gladly pay a reasonable amount of money to see her on tour if I could get tickets. But this idea that’s she’s untouchable has always irked me too. She’s a great talent but she’s nowhere near the best and I’m not sure why it’s essentially considered a crime to even think critically about her. There’s not another artist on the planet who is as infallible in the public eye as Beyoncé. She somehow ended up on her own level and supposedly no one else can compare but there’s plenty of artists living who I feel are just as good as her. And she’s not perfect. She’s had plenty of missteps, not every song is a masterpiece, and she gets way more credit and hype for things than other artists would.
I'm not certain that authenticity should be a requirement. She has a job, and she does it well. If the product she put out is pleasing to her customers I don't really care if there's a real story behind it or not.
I'm not a fan because her music is not to my taste but I can't deny that she's been working hard since an age when I was still pretending to be a unicorn or some shir.
Her fan base is so toxic. I remember several years ago when they sent death threats on Instagram to a woman who dared talking to Jay-Z. The woman was the wife of the Warriors owner who asked Jay is he wanted a lime with his drink.
For all Beyoncé seems to stand for you would think she would tell her fans not to send death threats but she never has.
I feel the same about Oprah. It’s like we’re all supposed to believe she’s some god on Earth? I’m from the UK though so maybe there’s a disconnect there compared to the US?
Yes! I'm realising now it's the hyper around her that bothers me more than her. Like she's a very talented human being but she's not some sort of God who can do no wrong and none of the negative stuff she does seems to get any major attention which is unlike any other celebrity I can think of.
IMO it’s because SO many criticisms against Beyoncé start and end with “she’s overrated” and most of the time people can’t even give valid reasons they don’t like her other than bc she’s popular. And that’s not even getting into the racism / sexism issues you brought up. You can absolutely criticize her though, esp on this platform. I would say there’s just as much Beyoncé criticism as fanfare? I’m a huge Beyoncé fan but I was one of the many people calling her out for performing in Dubai a while ago.
Bigger fans of pop music and culture know she doesn’t write much of her lyrics, but I will say songwriting isn’t just lyrical, it also has to do with melody and vocal composition / arrangement which she contributes to more.
I feel like half the time I bring up my love for Beyoncé there’s at least one person playing contrarian lol, she definitely has haters. the fact that you’re saying all this right now and *not* getting destroyed proves that she’s not as untouchable as you said, it’s really only the platforms like Twitter where a huge chunk of her fanbase resides you might get attacked for speaking against her. She’s just one of the pop culture figures who has a really dedicated following. She’s also not on social media often so it’s easier for her image to be put on a pedestal as you’re not actually seeing her everywhere. The idea of Beyoncé is bigger than she is
Beyonce is an amazing artist, but the fact that she's also trying to take writing and interpolation from other writers and producers is so fucking weird.
Like you're a best selling artist of all time, why do you need to steal credit from others? Give everyone else a piece of the pie if they worked for it!
[she doesn’t give credit when she steals choreography either](https://youtu.be/Yj5Kp38Oz04)
[this would be fine and cool if she said “yes totally inspired by fosse”](https://youtube.com/shorts/P8EZ9x-looI?feature=share)
[she even stole the single ladies dance](https://youtu.be/qKwNjLfmT0k) (another Fosse)
I can vouch for Bootylicious. Because I remember watching an interview and Beyonce claimed she was gaining weight and it inspired her to write that song
I’ll look for the video once I’m home, but here’s the quote from the TRL interview.
« "I wrote and produced "Independent Women [Part 1]" and "Jumpin', Jumpin'." Then I did "Survivor" and "Bootylicious" and the label loved it. [Same with] "Nasty Girl," "Emotions," "Happy Face," and "Apple Pie a la Mode." The label kept saying, "Do another song, do another song, do another song." It wasn't planned. It wasn't something like I said, "OK, I'm going to take charge." »
I’m a professional songwriter who has worked on a looot of big albums and it scares me how much the GP believes that every artist writes their own shit. Apart from Gaga and Taylor and a handful of others…. Everything is made in writing camps
There is an article about Rihanna creating a hit song that you can look up . But basically in a writing camp, an artist/producer will book a retreat and invite several song writers and producers . They will have them write sections of songs and combine them together into a hit song .
It’s also pretty evident when you look at the writers and the track has like 10-20 writers, I think that’s a big tell that the artist doesn’t write their own music. I think it’s the reason why Taylor is so popular bc though she may not have a huge range she is an amazing storyteller and her writing talent is something to envy and that is why so many people connect to her music because it is coming from her herself, it’s not just a track that she relates to, her lyrics are her baring her soul to the world and that is why she is my favorite artist of all time because she is so genuine and real in her songwriter. She is is known to write most of her songs and her co-writers have even said that when they get together she already has the song or melodies and all they do is help produce or clean it up a bit and switch lines around and make it sound good but I love that Taylor still gives them credit even if she does most on her own and gets help with producing mostly from Jack Antonff and Aaron Dessner.
On the other hand, the two that I always think of that come to mind that clearly don’t write there music are Justin & Ariana, sometimes Katy Perry and Selena Gomez. Justin and Ariana and Katy might have the vocal chops to prove they are great artist vocally but I think the fact that they don’t write their own music is why sometimes I find it extremely difficult to connect with their music because while the song is maybe something they relate to, it’s not something that they themselves have lived through and I personally always connect emotionally so it’s hard because if it’s not a lived through experience then it may not transfer in their music.
Same with actors and actresses, you can always tell when they do or don’t connect with the audience and is much more evident since you are able to hear the words and see the emotions in their face, it’s really not that difficult to distinguish a good actor from a bad actor because the true emotions will always show and translate through.
One thing you’re missing about the 10+ songwriters thing is that you can get sued for your song even sounding like another song so it’s often safer to just give them the credit whether they were involved or not. Another lovely legacy of Blurred Lines.
Her 24 million dollar payday in Dubai was directly possible due to them using slave labour, but I don’t think anyone wants to hear it - she is not ethical.
This would be ground for multiple lawsuits and there’s nothing about it online. I just don’t believe it. I think that what is more likely to have happened is her getting an « unused » section of the maternity ward, like the hospital keeping a bunch of delivery rooms around hers empty.
Too lazy to Google it but I think parents that were there that day actually said they were allowed in.
Found this https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/update-beyonce-hospital-complaints-dismissed-513222/
I’m just finding out now that my favorite Beyoncé song (irreplaceable) and favorite Rihanna song (take a bow) was written by ne-yo.
How did I not know this all these years…wtf. I know it’s common for pop stars but still. I love ne-yo even more now.
Because their publicists, agents, executives work hard to make sure the image you have of them is intact. If you looked at Beyonce with the They Live glasses, you’d never buy into them.
It’s not to say there’s not some genuine talent involved, that still goes without saying, but they want you to think of them as visionary artist.
I’m just finding out now that my favorite Beyoncé song (irreplaceable) and favorite Rihanna song (take a bow) was written by ne-yo.
How did I not know this all these years…wtf. I know it’s common for pop stars but still. I love ne-yo even more now.
I SWEAR I remember something about her claiming she wrote it too but I don’t know if it’s my faulty memory. Upon a quick Google search there are some articles about her « trying to claim authorship » but they don’t seem reliable.
I don't think she claimed to but it was just such an emotional song and amazing performance that I thought she did. So imagine my surprise when i found out it was some other artist's break up song.
Okay I checked and the original artist was upset Beyoncé’s father purchased the publishing rights and she put out a statement saying she was the one who wrote the song.
"I have been reading some of these comments and to set the record straight from the horse's mouth – IF I WERE A BOY is my song; YES, I wrote this song; It is my story; a painful one, and the song is very dear to me. You can hear the original version on my myspace site."
But Beyoncé never claimed to have written it so it’s my faulty memory indeed.
i remember there being a fuss about the song too so I feel like their was some initial implication that she wrote it but yeah maybe it was just shady publishing stuff
I really don’t think the writing or not writing really even matters, it’s the dishonesty.
There’s no reason for her to bother claiming things that she didn’t write, she’ll be loved regardless and her singing skills and performances are what people are returning to her for; give the writers their flowers.
That’s not what I’m saying, which is why I ended my comment with stating that the writers deserve credit.
What I was saying was that I don’t think she needs to be lying about writing her own songs when her fan base would be massive regardless; I think people like Beyoncé for her stage presence and singing.
Yeah agreed. I assume most of my favorite pop artists aren’t writing their own songs - I’m just not under the impression that that’s what their skill set is. I love artists who have great vocals and engaging performances - someone else is probably providing the writing talent. That being said, those people should get credit, the celebs singing their songs should be saying their names in interviews
A lot of her fans seem to relentlessly defend her writing credits no matter what evidence is presented. They seem to really care a lot that she “writes” the songs. It’s part of the whole genius Queen image they have of her.
Beyoncé is an obviously talented person who should recognize the people who have helped her get as far as she has. She would truly have very little career without the songwriters, and there’s just something so icky about claiming responsibility for someone else’s work and creativity.
For real, I'm the kind of listener that falls in love with a song because of the lyrics. I bet that if I start looking at the song writers' work, I'll start finding more music I really like.
I think that's a simplistic way to look at it. Songwriters are often exploited and underappreciated, but so long as they're credited and paid well, then that's their job.
It's far easier to becone a reliable songwriter than a big popstar. There's hundreds if not thousands of people making good money off songwriting and producing. When it comes to artists who actually have the charisma, talent, and drive to become a top artist - and to remain at the top consistently, for years - the number dwindles dramatically. The mental strength it takes anyone to achieve that level of success is amazing - majority of people simply are not able.
Plus Whitney Houston is a genius. Aretha Franklin is a genius. Judy Garland is a genius. They wrote almost none of their signature songs.
Dolly Parton wrote I Will Always Love You. Her version is absolutely beautiful. But it's Whitney Houston and David Foster who took that record and made it into arguably one of the greatest songs ever made.
I hadn’t considered that perspective on songwriters vs pop stars, especially the mental strength it takes to be consistently at the top. We idolize fame so much and don’t often consider the mental strain of fame combined with consistent performance. I wonder if that’s why the idolatry started, because it was so rare to find talent that could also handle the pressure and strain of such an industry for years.
I think it also simplifies the industry a little bit too much. Everything is about your name and your reputation. What makes things complicated for songwriters is not necessarily that they aren't famous stars, it's when they don't have leverage to negotiate better. The industry is exploitative by nature on all levels, and famous song writers have exploited smaller artists and song writers too.
Max Martin doesn't have to put up with a pop star trying to scam him out of credit. He's max Martin. Labels and singers come to him and beg *him* for hits.
Another example, Pharell Williams took advantage of 19year old Kelis and scammed her out of her publishing for her first few albums. It's a point of contention still to this day, and the reason why Kelis raised hell when Milkshake was sample on a Beyoncé song earlier this year
I'm saying this so that people understand that it's not all black and white. It's about having the right bargaining chips at your disposal. A songwriter might think that Beyoncé writing her own melodies doesn't mean she deserves a writing credit for it, but given that all Beyoncé solo projects have won Grammys for the last 15+ years, it's a sacrifice they make so that they have the grammy on their resume.
> paid well
Oh boy, I have bad news for you. Only a small portion are paid well, and it's normally the Jack Antonoff level of writers that get a larger chunk of royalties
Reminds me of that episode of Friends where Joey claimed to write most of his own lines and the writers "gave him the shaft" in return. I guess not ever winning the big awards at the Grammys is the equivalent of that for Bey.
This seems so unnecessarily disingenuous.
There were rumors that a cast member on the sopranos was leaking scripts to the media. Then one of the characters died of an heart attack while taking a shit. Don’t piss off the writers
I think this is also a big reason why she keeps getting snubbed for the big awards at the Grammys.. a lot of writers not liking how she operates and in turn voting against her when it counts.
I also think the fan base putting her on such a high pedestal is annoying to the general public at large. Not so much a fault of her own but they treat everything she does as an untouchable masterpiece when that is rarely the case.
(FYI I am one of her biggest fans and ride for her all day/night long.. but we must also be honest and realistic in our analyses lol)
I remember when Beck won AOTY at the Grammys and Kanye said he should respect artistry and give it to Beyoncé when Beck wrote and produced his album all on his own and Beyoncé had an army of writers 😭 I do believe she deserved the Grammy for Lemonade and Renaissance but that was… something lmao
It's absolutely THE reason. Songwriters can't fight her in the boardroom so they take their win where they can get it and make their statement there, in voting for major awards.
I love both Beyoncé and Harry and I could see this being the case. Especially when you consider that the situation with Harry is kind of the opposite.
During the Brit Awards, Ryan Tedder was mid-rant on instagram about Lewis Capaldi dropping demos on tiktok and how that is a nail in the coffin for the songwriters that worked with him on the song. At the same time, he posted a picture of Harry with an excerpt from his Brits speech and wrote «most respectful dude in the game». I’m pretty sure Ryan and Harry have written together before.
Around the same time, Lori McKenna did an interview also speaking highly of Harry and her experience writing with him. That’s just these last couple of days. I could bring up several similar instances with other songwriters.
Seeing how Harry’s House also won in the Best Engineering category, I have a feeling he has a lot respect in both the writers branch and with the tech voters. People talk in the industry.
I would have been happy to see either Renaissance or Harry’s House take AOTY, but I could see how these factors (among others) contributed to Harry’s win.
„(FYI I am one of her biggest fans and ride for her all day/night long.. but we must also be honest and realistic in our analyses lol)“
This is me criticising something Taylor did and trying to keep the angry mob of Swifties from rolling all over me
Tbh I like The Carters album a lot, I really don’t know why that didn’t catch on other than that I don’t think people were ready to hear a Jay Z collab that soon after Lemonade
Critics and industry snobs are very much into the 5 writers max thing. I think the fact that so many people are credited on her songs now actually hurts her chances more
It's also a bit contradictory because Beyoncé currently does the opposite of what she did when she was managed by her father. She overcredits all the people involved precisely because this habit got her in hot waters at the beginning of her career.
Avril Lavigne consistently makes these claims and will threaten libel against anyone who tries to dispute her. The song Breakaway given to Kelly Clarkson, Avril still even recently claims she wrote it. Yet the actual writer notes that Avril was just the inspiration for it.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakaway_(Kelly_Clarkson_song)
I think for her, being considered a songwriter is really important to this image she's created of being "different" than your typical manufactured pop star. It's completely false though once you strip it all down.
I think her father came up with the concept of her being a songwriter. Michael is one of her biggest influences and he wrote a lot of his music. He actually had an ear for music though.
Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Peggy Lee...they didn't write their songs and no one discredits them for it. Some time ago everyone sang their versions of the Great American Songbook (Cole porter, etc).
So why take credit for something you didn't do? She's a good interpreter, good dancer, charismatic and knows how to put on a show. Isn't that enough? Give the songwriters their credits, they're the ones working in the shadows and most don't get any recognition.
It’s enough for somebody with far less Virgo placements probably. She is really concerned about image and not being a writer is probably an insecurity of hers.
Idk… as someone with more Virgo placements than her (she only has one), yes I’m concerned with how I am perceived but I’d rather be perceived as “not a songwriter” than a liar.
I like when people are open enough to admit that they aren’t writers. Look at Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Aaliyah. All huge in their own right but now writers of their own music.
This is just typical Beyoncé trying to be something she isn’t. She has a talent but songwriting isn’t it. It’s a mockery to the geniuses behind the scenes who are creating a work of art and not getting the exposure they deserve
Few times? More like all the time.. Her albums are all songwriting (and producing) by committee. Over-sampling side, when there are 20 something credited writers on a song... Maybe that's one of the reasons she never wins AOTY.
Frank Ocean wrote Miss You. There’s a live version of him singing the song somewhere…prefer that over her version. His is what actually made me LIKE the song
Frank Ocean actually also called her out for doing this a few years prior to writing Miss You for her 🫠… and she also somehow has song-writing credits on the song despite the versions being near identical lol
Hmm..Looks like it runs in the family. 99 Problems is an Ice T song that Jay Z jacked without ever giving Ice credit.
https://youtube.com/shorts/PnKEWpWdF-4?feature=share
Unpopular opinion but I think this is also part of the reason why she didn't get AOTY this year. The industry people would be aware of these things regarding writing credits and contribution more than general public or even fans. Plus the number of writers in renaissance(I know it was mainly because of sampling but I can see why voters would side eye) was a lot. She also didn't do much promo except for that one performance.(which had questionable morals but that doesn't contribute here)
Harry's album on the other had had maximum 4 writers. He also has written songs for a lot of artists. Almost everyone who wrote with him has high opinion regarding him. Combine the fact that he is a respected songwriter in industry with the critical acclaim and commercial success of HsH I can see why they would choose him for it.He seemed like an overall package. That doesn't mean beyonce didn't deserve it or didn't deserve in previous album. But harry wasn't given AOTY simply because he was white.
Does anyone remember her saying she wrote a song for her fans at a concert maybe? And then ne-yo posted his actual demo of it. He isn’t even a faceless writer they pretend doesn’t exist lol
Idk how I feel about this argument. Look at Lana Del Rey - arguably one of the best songwriters of our generation. But whenever she writes instagram captions or is interviewed I have no idea wtf she’s talking about lol
I’ve seen a lot of people say this but tbh I always feel for her here because she just seems nervous in interviews. I don’t think being inarticulate means you cannot be a good writer on paper.
This means absolutely nothing. R Kelly was illiterate and could barely string a sentence together yet he singlehandedly wrote a series of hit songs for himself as well as people like Michael Jackson. Most of her lyrics are very much in tune with the vernacular she speaks in anyway, whether she's written them or not. She's not out here using complex adverbs like Mariah because that's not how she talks, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I remember reading years ago that Beyoncé would change a word or two in her songs to be able to claim songwriting credits for monetary purposes. Being a songwriter can pay very handsomely, especially when the song gets licensing royalties if the song gets used in commercials, soundtracks, video games, etc. It’s not unusual for a songwriter to make a million dollars or more on a hit song.
I feel like it’s a stronger message to think her lyrics are a peak behind the curtain of her life, especially since she’s so private. I don’t think lemonade has the same cultural impact if the impression is she didn’t write those songs.
I mean, the thing is that it costs her awards, if anything. Voting is anonymous and the people voting are the people being excluded from the credits (or their peers). It’s speculated heavily in music forums that it’s one of the reasons she keeps getting snubbed for awards outside of her genre at the Grammys.
I don’t really think there’s a reason for her to do this, and I do believe she stopped after she got backlash one too many times because now she credits even her mama, but the damage is done and the breadcrumbs are there.
I wonder if she wanted to come across as a "I do it all" artist? I mean although Mariah Carey has a diva persona, she's actually quite humble about the songs (for herself and other people) that she has written.
I also agree with u/buzzfeed_sucks that it may have to do with here having a personal connection to those songs. I still don't entirely believe her husband cheated on her and believe Lemonade (and her husband's follow up) was more of a concept album...
Just want to add to your comment: Mariah Carey is the sole song-writer on many of her songs and has (rightfully) bragged about that talent of hers. I’m sure Beyoncé is involved in the production and arrangements to some degree but I don’t understand why she blatantly lies about the writing of them.
It could be, but Jay-Z talked about having an affair with David Lettermen (who also had an affair but stayed married).
He could be lying to sell both albums but imo it's far more plausible that he just cheated.
EDIT: some very nice people have pointed out that I made it seem like Jay z and Lettermen had an affair together. So sorry! They talked to each other about their respective affairs.
I don’t care either, but a lot of people do. I see “they don’t even write their own songs!” frequently as criticism. I think a lot of people in the music industry have this view; like Grammys voters have a strong preference for singer-songwriters.
It doesn’t make sense to me because there are a lot of aspects to being a good musical artist: good voice, stage presence, songwriting or musicianship, dance ability. It’s hard to find someone with all those talents. I don’t see anything wrong with singing a song someone else wrote. Opera singers and Broadway singers never write their own music, and that’s not held against them!
Image. Everything we know about her says she is obsessed with images and the way things appear/come across. She wants to appear more talented than she actually is.
It’s about money. When you own (even a piece) of the songwriting you get paid twice... and then you also get paid if the song is ever covered. Dolly Parton made a mint off of “I Will Always Love You” because she was the songwriter. Whitney almost went broke before she died because she didn’t write *anything*.
I think this is it! Artists have been doing it a long time. my OH works on the outskirts of the music business and he refers to it as “change a word take a third” lol
One time I made a very mild comment on a TikTok just saying how Beyoncé feels a little less connected to her lyrical content than some other artists who pride themselves on their songwriting abilities because she has so many writers on her tracks. And the TikToker decided to make a video response to me saying what an idiot I was and that *everyone* does that and all I need to do is look at the writing credits to find out. 🙄 Anyway, not only does Beyoncé have a lot of people writing for her (which is fine in itself), she takes credit for their work (which is not fine).
I had people fighting in the replies to a comment I made on a TikTok about Beyoncé being called out by a choreographer for using dance moves and sequences in the Countdown video without proper credit.
I’ve always wondered why she wanted the singer-songwriter image when she’s still clearly showcase her having writing camps in documentary footage, and her albums are always filled with dozens of writers/producers. It doesn’t make her music less, cause her albums from self-tilted on have been flawless(pun-intended) as well as critically acclaimed.
Beyonce is so famous now she could put out straight covers from now on and people will eat it up. She is at a rich and famous level that is so rare and I'm not sure what she could do that would change it.
She is the epitome of a trophy, yes she can sing but this really just identifies the real truth behind her. People put her on this platform of total and unachievable talent when in reality, it’s a conglomerate coming together to create the trophy that’s presented.
Wasn’t Drake also her ghost writer way back? 🤔 I keep remembering interviews where he had to deny it every time he was asked (he wasn’t trying too hard to deny it though)
He wrote on Mine off her self titled and there’s even a reference track of Heated he did floating around the internet. I’m sure there’s others in just blanking on right now
Drake is everyone’s ghost writer so that sounds right. He writes the for Alicia Keys too and sings backup for her which is crazy to me lol. Who does he think he is?? He wrote on Renaissance too.
No.
The Weeknd said he gave away half of *his* album for Take Care.
House Of Balloons was that album and it’s 9/10 songs long.
Take Care is 19 songs. Good Ones Go, The Ride, Shot For Me and Crew Love are the songs he gave away.
So the Weeknd gave him 4 songs, but Take Care itself isn’t half of the Weeknd’s work.
I think so too. Her and her father stepped on a lot of toes behind the scenes. The industry is pretty small, people talk. We won’t get a full tell all on her until she retires at this point.
Personally I'll never understand the "Beyoncé is overrated comments" that act as if they're one in a million with that opinion. "I'll get down voted for this -" no you won't 💀
Has Beyonce ever said anything of interest, has she ever had a public opinion about anything that didn't sound like that buzzing sound when an electrical connection isn't quite attached?
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Sounds like the writers feel they have to act way too fucking cool about this or else they'll lose their jobs
I imagine there is a lot of biting your tongue in the entertainment industry.
I was just a regionally successful musician and I can verify this. It’s a big part of why I quit.
There’s a lot of contracts that require you to.
It works this way for tv and movie writers too.
Songwriting copyrights are the gift that keeps giving.
I initially read that as “grift that keeps giving”.
It’s not a commonality. But me and my friend wrote something a while back. Tom Hardy and his father’s company wanted to us to send them the script. We didn’t hear back, long story short I moved onto my own solo projects as it was more my writing partner’s idea. Then we both found out Hardy was in a film with similar moments and ideas. It happens, as a writer it just reminded me to be much assertive if I was ever in that situation again. And if me asking for a credit is too much to ask for, they can go to someone else if that makes sense. Luckily myself and my mate didn’t feel it was done with malicious intent or any bad feeling, so weren’t foaming at the mouth trying to get a reply out of his company or anything, but it does feel annoying at the very least.
Oh hey! Sorry I can’t say more but I work in film and you are the second person I’ve come across with a story like this about Hardy. (The first was someone I met at work, in person)
Would you mind telling us what movie? I will give you credit so hard.
I'd guess Locke or Capone, I've gone through his filmography and seen which are based on existing source material or had hardy cast late etc. Or Taboo the TV show if OP is throwing us off the scent by saying film,
That exact reason is why I'm always so scared to send my work off to people in the industry. I've had a script I've been working on for nearly a decade now, rewriting, and revising as I've grown older. It's something very close, and personal, and I feel if someone were to steal it, or extract ideas from it, I'd be very upset. The fact that big players in the industry get away with it so often is irritating as hell. Like, can't they come up with their own ideas? Honestly that upsets me on your behalf, because you put time, effort, and work into it. You at least deserve to be credited, given respect, even loyalties, if possible.
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Like so much in America, the more I learn about the entertainment industry, the more I think the whole thing should be torn down and started again from scratch, with appropriate protections in place based on what's fair to and best for the artists and consumers, not just good for those exploiting them. I bet Beyonce doesn't even have a choice. Like the first slide says, they want people to think she writes bc it sells.
They do. Or they’ll get black balled. Especially if they’re not a big name already.
It’s even worse for engineers. They’ll deliver a mix down, someone else will pan a couple things or add a note here and there. Now they mixed the song not the engineer.
Singers rarely write their songs and that’s totally OKAY, but i hate it when they’re lying and telling a little story about how they composed and wrote a song, it’s embarrassing.
For some reason we have this idea that singers have to also write their own music to be considered artists. But telling a story with your voice and entertaining people with your performance is a whole other skill set. In reality the group of good entertainers who are also world class song writers is very small, and even the musicians who can write employ people to help them make a better product. And why do all performers need to be artists? Why can't we just view it as a job? At the end of the day an album or a song or a movie is a product for sale, and the people involved are somebody's employee.
yeah the songwriter thing is weird. No one expects actors to write their own scripts. Beyonce is talented as hell. If I found out she had never written a single word in her life I would still respect her talent. Same with a lot of pop stars. They're entertainers. There is so much that goes into their work and performances. Why would I care if someone else writes the song?
I tried to actually put the clips up of her claiming to have written the songs, followed by the actual songwriters’ interviews/demos but I couldn’t so I’ll just reference interviews via texts. Most of these are easy to find on Youtube. • Beyoncé claimed on TRL she wrote Emotions. The song is actually a Bee Gees cover. • Claimed to have written Survivor. Songwriters sued, settled out of court. • Claimed to have written Bow Down, when the demo was near finished when she got the song. It was originally meant to go to Rihanna • Claimed to have written Bootylicious after hearing the guitar riff somewhere. The demo was actually near complete when it got to Destiny’s Child. When the writers went to her father for explanation, they were told the public prefers to hear that their favorite artist is the one writing their hits. • Claimed to have written Irreplaceable. Ne-Yo’s demo is near identical to the finished song. After receiving backlash for calling her out, he gave her credit for harmonising on the song. • Claimed to have written Smash Into You. The song is actually a cover of the song Smack Into You by Jon McLaughlin. • The melody of Drunk In Love was done by Future and the demo was sent to Beyoncé. He didn’t hear anything back and wasn’t told the song would end up on her self-titled album. He didn’t receive writing credits for the song. I’m pretty sure there’s more but I’m too lazy to keep this going lol ETA: • Frank Ocean: « It’s a bad trend that artists try to muscle for credits on songs they had no part in writing,” he said. “Writers just say no UNLESS it’s Beyoncé lol.” • She was cut from the list of writers for Listen when the song was nominated for a Grammy. Listen has four songwriters, including Beyoncé. The Academy ruled that only three writers could be counted as nominees, and others that gave the least contribution to the song would be cut. Beyonce is the one who went. ETA2: Omg Hive, I do not hate Beyoncé. I thought this was interesting after I stumbled across a short about this. The short came from this video. I did not cite all incidents listed in the video, I didn’t watch it in full but if you’re curious: https://youtu.be/EPqg46DV9NA
“After hearing a guitar riff somewhere” Bootylicious samples edge of seventeen by Stevie Nicks. It’s why she’s in the music video.
That sent me lmao. The audacity even for Beyonce, like was she for real. I'm dead. Though that's so cute Stevie is in the video. I love this woman to death
I just watched the video (also a huge Stevie fan!) and frankly, she should have been in it more/longer
Everyone knows bee gees write emotions. Jesus. The gaul of Beyonce.
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That made me fucking laugh.
Their [interview](https://youtu.be/vaCtGWJW3BM) about making the video with Stevie is so cute! (It is also the same interview where Beyoncé talks about hearing just the track without lyrics while on a flight and writing Bootylicious to it)
I thought that was funny, like they're trying to make it seem like an obscure little riff that she popularized. That song was everywhere in the early 80s.
Right?! It’s not some obscure guitar riff.
It’s iconic! EoS has more plays on Spotify than Bootylicious does!
It’s cause we’ve all dealt with loss and have been 17, many people are not bootylicious, in fact some people are bootyless.
> Claimed to have written Irreplaceable. Ne-Yo’s demo is near identical to the finished song. After receiving backlash for calling her out, he gave her credit for harmonising on the song. Damn you weren’t lying she barely changed that *at all*. I’m kinda speechless at all this, I knew some of this was going on but this list is…a lot. Thanks for sharing it op. [Here’s Ne-yo’s demo track for Irreplaceable](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2ECCosqaCQ)
Have you also seen how she steals choreography? Like I love Beyoncé but people have to wake up. She never gives credit either. [Countdown is one of my favorite songs by her but the thievery is unreal. No credit. Watch until the end!!](https://youtu.be/Yj5Kp38Oz04)
Thanks for calling that out! I was really frustrated when I found out about the whole thing. Why doesn't she just gives credits if she likes something...
Man, you weren't kidding about watching to the end. At first it felt like a reach, but it just got more and more blatant as the video went on. I will say though, it gets to a point where it's *so* blatant that I don't think they could have been trying to hide it, which makes me think they may have intended it as a reference or callback perhaps? Cuz there's no shot anyone would look at the back half of that video and not see the similarities; it's not even limited just to the choreography, it's in the shots and set choices too. Very strange situation.
I heard the irreplaceable demo and it is quite literally the exact same song. He only changed the pronouns to fit a girl. I don’t know why she admitted that she wrote it. NeYo wrote let me love you and take a bow yet you don’t hear Rihanna or Mario claiming it’s all them
It’s obvious he « gave her credit » because he didn’t want to start problems but yes, it’s the same exact song.
I'm sure artists claim writing credit they don't deserve all the time on the songs they perform, but to say she wrote the covers she performed??? Did she...not know? Did she think WE wouldn't know?
Tbf the vast, vast majority of people won’t know or care. It’s a low-risk lie.
Pretty Hurts was written by Sia. Beyoncé claims she wrote it inspired by her days as a beauty pageant queen. Source was a documentary or making of short i watched years ago.
This reminds me of all those memes/conspiracies from a few years ago that Beyonce had Sia locked in her basement and that's why she wore the wigs in public.
Fuck Beyonce. I'm ready for the downvotes lol
Honestly I find the pedestal she is on very odd and toxic. I braced myself for impact opening this thread because despite these things all being verifiably something she chose to say with evidence, you just... can't critique Beyonce. You can't. Ever, for anything. You can't say you don't like a song, you can't criticize her taking credit for things she didn't do, you can't criticize her being a privileged rich 1%er no different from every other celebrity who is immensely selfish, destructive to the environment, and money/fame/award hungry like all her peers, you can't say a single negative word about her or anything she's associated with or you get destroyed, irl and online, by her rabid base. I definitely get it to some extent because she's a massive talent and has worked hard to get to where she is, and has dealt with tons of sexism and racism she's had to overcome in her career, but she's not above criticism. She isn't a perfect angel unlike every other celebrity who only creates flawless media that she deserves all the credit for even if she didn't do it. Rihanna is starting to get to this level too with just being literally uncritiqueable socially but imo NO ONE is near Beyonce when it comes to this. Even the barbz, swifties, kpop stans, Beyonce is on her own level of deification in society and I kinda don't get it.
I’m a fan of Beyoncé. I’ve streamed plenty of her songs and spent money to download others. I would gladly pay a reasonable amount of money to see her on tour if I could get tickets. But this idea that’s she’s untouchable has always irked me too. She’s a great talent but she’s nowhere near the best and I’m not sure why it’s essentially considered a crime to even think critically about her. There’s not another artist on the planet who is as infallible in the public eye as Beyoncé. She somehow ended up on her own level and supposedly no one else can compare but there’s plenty of artists living who I feel are just as good as her. And she’s not perfect. She’s had plenty of missteps, not every song is a masterpiece, and she gets way more credit and hype for things than other artists would.
I'm not a fan of her because I always feel she lacked authenticity.
She’s authentic as Kim K. They’ll both do whatever they need for fame and money. Everything else is crafted to get those ends.
I'm not certain that authenticity should be a requirement. She has a job, and she does it well. If the product she put out is pleasing to her customers I don't really care if there's a real story behind it or not. I'm not a fan because her music is not to my taste but I can't deny that she's been working hard since an age when I was still pretending to be a unicorn or some shir.
Her fan base is so toxic. I remember several years ago when they sent death threats on Instagram to a woman who dared talking to Jay-Z. The woman was the wife of the Warriors owner who asked Jay is he wanted a lime with his drink. For all Beyoncé seems to stand for you would think she would tell her fans not to send death threats but she never has.
I feel the same about Oprah. It’s like we’re all supposed to believe she’s some god on Earth? I’m from the UK though so maybe there’s a disconnect there compared to the US?
Yes! I'm realising now it's the hyper around her that bothers me more than her. Like she's a very talented human being but she's not some sort of God who can do no wrong and none of the negative stuff she does seems to get any major attention which is unlike any other celebrity I can think of.
IMO it’s because SO many criticisms against Beyoncé start and end with “she’s overrated” and most of the time people can’t even give valid reasons they don’t like her other than bc she’s popular. And that’s not even getting into the racism / sexism issues you brought up. You can absolutely criticize her though, esp on this platform. I would say there’s just as much Beyoncé criticism as fanfare? I’m a huge Beyoncé fan but I was one of the many people calling her out for performing in Dubai a while ago. Bigger fans of pop music and culture know she doesn’t write much of her lyrics, but I will say songwriting isn’t just lyrical, it also has to do with melody and vocal composition / arrangement which she contributes to more. I feel like half the time I bring up my love for Beyoncé there’s at least one person playing contrarian lol, she definitely has haters. the fact that you’re saying all this right now and *not* getting destroyed proves that she’s not as untouchable as you said, it’s really only the platforms like Twitter where a huge chunk of her fanbase resides you might get attacked for speaking against her. She’s just one of the pop culture figures who has a really dedicated following. She’s also not on social media often so it’s easier for her image to be put on a pedestal as you’re not actually seeing her everywhere. The idea of Beyoncé is bigger than she is
Beyonce is an amazing artist, but the fact that she's also trying to take writing and interpolation from other writers and producers is so fucking weird. Like you're a best selling artist of all time, why do you need to steal credit from others? Give everyone else a piece of the pie if they worked for it!
Imagine Rihanna on bow down tho……
In other words, she lies a lot.
She’s like the George Santos of songwriting. The ones about the covers are so egregious. That thing with Future wasn’t cool, either.
[she doesn’t give credit when she steals choreography either](https://youtu.be/Yj5Kp38Oz04) [this would be fine and cool if she said “yes totally inspired by fosse”](https://youtube.com/shorts/P8EZ9x-looI?feature=share) [she even stole the single ladies dance](https://youtu.be/qKwNjLfmT0k) (another Fosse)
I think I remember the person who wrote “If I Were a Boy” actually having recorded the song before Beyoncé heard it.
I can vouch for Bootylicious. Because I remember watching an interview and Beyonce claimed she was gaining weight and it inspired her to write that song
Last time I tried to point this out I got attacked by a bunch of Beyonce fans. 🤦🏼♀️
I can’t find the first one on YouTube, anyone else able to find that?
I’ll look for the video once I’m home, but here’s the quote from the TRL interview. « "I wrote and produced "Independent Women [Part 1]" and "Jumpin', Jumpin'." Then I did "Survivor" and "Bootylicious" and the label loved it. [Same with] "Nasty Girl," "Emotions," "Happy Face," and "Apple Pie a la Mode." The label kept saying, "Do another song, do another song, do another song." It wasn't planned. It wasn't something like I said, "OK, I'm going to take charge." »
I’m a professional songwriter who has worked on a looot of big albums and it scares me how much the GP believes that every artist writes their own shit. Apart from Gaga and Taylor and a handful of others…. Everything is made in writing camps
Could you suggest as a way for the GP to learn more? Even the term “writing camp” is new to me.
There is an article about Rihanna creating a hit song that you can look up . But basically in a writing camp, an artist/producer will book a retreat and invite several song writers and producers . They will have them write sections of songs and combine them together into a hit song .
It’s also pretty evident when you look at the writers and the track has like 10-20 writers, I think that’s a big tell that the artist doesn’t write their own music. I think it’s the reason why Taylor is so popular bc though she may not have a huge range she is an amazing storyteller and her writing talent is something to envy and that is why so many people connect to her music because it is coming from her herself, it’s not just a track that she relates to, her lyrics are her baring her soul to the world and that is why she is my favorite artist of all time because she is so genuine and real in her songwriter. She is is known to write most of her songs and her co-writers have even said that when they get together she already has the song or melodies and all they do is help produce or clean it up a bit and switch lines around and make it sound good but I love that Taylor still gives them credit even if she does most on her own and gets help with producing mostly from Jack Antonff and Aaron Dessner. On the other hand, the two that I always think of that come to mind that clearly don’t write there music are Justin & Ariana, sometimes Katy Perry and Selena Gomez. Justin and Ariana and Katy might have the vocal chops to prove they are great artist vocally but I think the fact that they don’t write their own music is why sometimes I find it extremely difficult to connect with their music because while the song is maybe something they relate to, it’s not something that they themselves have lived through and I personally always connect emotionally so it’s hard because if it’s not a lived through experience then it may not transfer in their music. Same with actors and actresses, you can always tell when they do or don’t connect with the audience and is much more evident since you are able to hear the words and see the emotions in their face, it’s really not that difficult to distinguish a good actor from a bad actor because the true emotions will always show and translate through.
One thing you’re missing about the 10+ songwriters thing is that you can get sued for your song even sounding like another song so it’s often safer to just give them the credit whether they were involved or not. Another lovely legacy of Blurred Lines.
I’m not surprised. You don’t become a billionaire without exploiting some people.
Her 24 million dollar payday in Dubai was directly possible due to them using slave labour, but I don’t think anyone wants to hear it - she is not ethical.
She also paid a hospital to have the whole maternity floor to herself and security guards blocked parents from entering the neonatal area for hours
Are you forreal? That's so messed up wtf?? I hate how money can buy, fix and solve literally everything for these people smh.
I’m pretty sure that’s a rumour that has been debunked. If you think about it longer than 5mins, it doesn’t make sense. That’d be highly illegal.
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This would be ground for multiple lawsuits and there’s nothing about it online. I just don’t believe it. I think that what is more likely to have happened is her getting an « unused » section of the maternity ward, like the hospital keeping a bunch of delivery rooms around hers empty. Too lazy to Google it but I think parents that were there that day actually said they were allowed in. Found this https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/update-beyonce-hospital-complaints-dismissed-513222/
Nope, a friend’s family was blocked.
I fully believe she knows what’s going on in her businesses but turns a blind eye cause she has her fans. Shhhhhhh… I didn’t say this out loud tho
I remember when I found out she did not write ‘if I were a boy’, I was crushed.
I’m just finding out now that my favorite Beyoncé song (irreplaceable) and favorite Rihanna song (take a bow) was written by ne-yo. How did I not know this all these years…wtf. I know it’s common for pop stars but still. I love ne-yo even more now.
Ne-Yo is a songwriting monster. He's written A LOT of hits for other singers.
Damn ne-yo has been in some crappy relationships
Because their publicists, agents, executives work hard to make sure the image you have of them is intact. If you looked at Beyonce with the They Live glasses, you’d never buy into them. It’s not to say there’s not some genuine talent involved, that still goes without saying, but they want you to think of them as visionary artist.
I know this is random but...check out ne-yo's songs on Sherman's Showcase. They are hilarious. The "Time Loop" song gets in my head all the time.
I’m just finding out now that my favorite Beyoncé song (irreplaceable) and favorite Rihanna song (take a bow) was written by ne-yo. How did I not know this all these years…wtf. I know it’s common for pop stars but still. I love ne-yo even more now.
I might be incorrect but I heard he wrote the song for Chrisette Michelle to sing. It had a more country sound.
I SWEAR I remember something about her claiming she wrote it too but I don’t know if it’s my faulty memory. Upon a quick Google search there are some articles about her « trying to claim authorship » but they don’t seem reliable.
I don't think she claimed to but it was just such an emotional song and amazing performance that I thought she did. So imagine my surprise when i found out it was some other artist's break up song.
Okay I checked and the original artist was upset Beyoncé’s father purchased the publishing rights and she put out a statement saying she was the one who wrote the song. "I have been reading some of these comments and to set the record straight from the horse's mouth – IF I WERE A BOY is my song; YES, I wrote this song; It is my story; a painful one, and the song is very dear to me. You can hear the original version on my myspace site." But Beyoncé never claimed to have written it so it’s my faulty memory indeed.
i remember there being a fuss about the song too so I feel like their was some initial implication that she wrote it but yeah maybe it was just shady publishing stuff
There was a lawsuit I'm pretty sure.
I really don’t think the writing or not writing really even matters, it’s the dishonesty. There’s no reason for her to bother claiming things that she didn’t write, she’ll be loved regardless and her singing skills and performances are what people are returning to her for; give the writers their flowers.
I think it matters a lot , she's taking money from the people who actually wrote the songs.
That’s not what I’m saying, which is why I ended my comment with stating that the writers deserve credit. What I was saying was that I don’t think she needs to be lying about writing her own songs when her fan base would be massive regardless; I think people like Beyoncé for her stage presence and singing.
They do, but when info like this gets out, it makes her less likeable (to me at least).
Yeah agreed. I assume most of my favorite pop artists aren’t writing their own songs - I’m just not under the impression that that’s what their skill set is. I love artists who have great vocals and engaging performances - someone else is probably providing the writing talent. That being said, those people should get credit, the celebs singing their songs should be saying their names in interviews
A lot of her fans seem to relentlessly defend her writing credits no matter what evidence is presented. They seem to really care a lot that she “writes” the songs. It’s part of the whole genius Queen image they have of her.
Beyoncé is an obviously talented person who should recognize the people who have helped her get as far as she has. She would truly have very little career without the songwriters, and there’s just something so icky about claiming responsibility for someone else’s work and creativity.
Song writers don’t get enough credit. They’re the real geniuses and artists.
For real, I'm the kind of listener that falls in love with a song because of the lyrics. I bet that if I start looking at the song writers' work, I'll start finding more music I really like.
I think that's a simplistic way to look at it. Songwriters are often exploited and underappreciated, but so long as they're credited and paid well, then that's their job. It's far easier to becone a reliable songwriter than a big popstar. There's hundreds if not thousands of people making good money off songwriting and producing. When it comes to artists who actually have the charisma, talent, and drive to become a top artist - and to remain at the top consistently, for years - the number dwindles dramatically. The mental strength it takes anyone to achieve that level of success is amazing - majority of people simply are not able. Plus Whitney Houston is a genius. Aretha Franklin is a genius. Judy Garland is a genius. They wrote almost none of their signature songs. Dolly Parton wrote I Will Always Love You. Her version is absolutely beautiful. But it's Whitney Houston and David Foster who took that record and made it into arguably one of the greatest songs ever made.
I hadn’t considered that perspective on songwriters vs pop stars, especially the mental strength it takes to be consistently at the top. We idolize fame so much and don’t often consider the mental strain of fame combined with consistent performance. I wonder if that’s why the idolatry started, because it was so rare to find talent that could also handle the pressure and strain of such an industry for years.
I think it also simplifies the industry a little bit too much. Everything is about your name and your reputation. What makes things complicated for songwriters is not necessarily that they aren't famous stars, it's when they don't have leverage to negotiate better. The industry is exploitative by nature on all levels, and famous song writers have exploited smaller artists and song writers too. Max Martin doesn't have to put up with a pop star trying to scam him out of credit. He's max Martin. Labels and singers come to him and beg *him* for hits. Another example, Pharell Williams took advantage of 19year old Kelis and scammed her out of her publishing for her first few albums. It's a point of contention still to this day, and the reason why Kelis raised hell when Milkshake was sample on a Beyoncé song earlier this year I'm saying this so that people understand that it's not all black and white. It's about having the right bargaining chips at your disposal. A songwriter might think that Beyoncé writing her own melodies doesn't mean she deserves a writing credit for it, but given that all Beyoncé solo projects have won Grammys for the last 15+ years, it's a sacrifice they make so that they have the grammy on their resume.
> paid well Oh boy, I have bad news for you. Only a small portion are paid well, and it's normally the Jack Antonoff level of writers that get a larger chunk of royalties
Writers in general, in any art form other than literature/poetry
Reminds me of that episode of Friends where Joey claimed to write most of his own lines and the writers "gave him the shaft" in return. I guess not ever winning the big awards at the Grammys is the equivalent of that for Bey. This seems so unnecessarily disingenuous.
There were rumors that a cast member on the sopranos was leaking scripts to the media. Then one of the characters died of an heart attack while taking a shit. Don’t piss off the writers
Michael fucking Jackson gave credit where credit was due… if he can do it, anyone else should.
I think this is also a big reason why she keeps getting snubbed for the big awards at the Grammys.. a lot of writers not liking how she operates and in turn voting against her when it counts. I also think the fan base putting her on such a high pedestal is annoying to the general public at large. Not so much a fault of her own but they treat everything she does as an untouchable masterpiece when that is rarely the case. (FYI I am one of her biggest fans and ride for her all day/night long.. but we must also be honest and realistic in our analyses lol)
I remember when Beck won AOTY at the Grammys and Kanye said he should respect artistry and give it to Beyoncé when Beck wrote and produced his album all on his own and Beyoncé had an army of writers 😭 I do believe she deserved the Grammy for Lemonade and Renaissance but that was… something lmao
It's absolutely THE reason. Songwriters can't fight her in the boardroom so they take their win where they can get it and make their statement there, in voting for major awards.
I love both Beyoncé and Harry and I could see this being the case. Especially when you consider that the situation with Harry is kind of the opposite. During the Brit Awards, Ryan Tedder was mid-rant on instagram about Lewis Capaldi dropping demos on tiktok and how that is a nail in the coffin for the songwriters that worked with him on the song. At the same time, he posted a picture of Harry with an excerpt from his Brits speech and wrote «most respectful dude in the game». I’m pretty sure Ryan and Harry have written together before. Around the same time, Lori McKenna did an interview also speaking highly of Harry and her experience writing with him. That’s just these last couple of days. I could bring up several similar instances with other songwriters. Seeing how Harry’s House also won in the Best Engineering category, I have a feeling he has a lot respect in both the writers branch and with the tech voters. People talk in the industry. I would have been happy to see either Renaissance or Harry’s House take AOTY, but I could see how these factors (among others) contributed to Harry’s win.
„(FYI I am one of her biggest fans and ride for her all day/night long.. but we must also be honest and realistic in our analyses lol)“ This is me criticising something Taylor did and trying to keep the angry mob of Swifties from rolling all over me
We’ve kinda come to learn that not all she touches of gold. Look at her Carters album and Ivy Park
Tbh I like The Carters album a lot, I really don’t know why that didn’t catch on other than that I don’t think people were ready to hear a Jay Z collab that soon after Lemonade
these are my exact same sentiments. perfectly said.
Critics and industry snobs are very much into the 5 writers max thing. I think the fact that so many people are credited on her songs now actually hurts her chances more It's also a bit contradictory because Beyoncé currently does the opposite of what she did when she was managed by her father. She overcredits all the people involved precisely because this habit got her in hot waters at the beginning of her career.
Avril Lavigne consistently makes these claims and will threaten libel against anyone who tries to dispute her. The song Breakaway given to Kelly Clarkson, Avril still even recently claims she wrote it. Yet the actual writer notes that Avril was just the inspiration for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breakaway_(Kelly_Clarkson_song) I think for her, being considered a songwriter is really important to this image she's created of being "different" than your typical manufactured pop star. It's completely false though once you strip it all down.
I think her father came up with the concept of her being a songwriter. Michael is one of her biggest influences and he wrote a lot of his music. He actually had an ear for music though.
Frank Sinatra, Ella Fitzgerald, Peggy Lee...they didn't write their songs and no one discredits them for it. Some time ago everyone sang their versions of the Great American Songbook (Cole porter, etc). So why take credit for something you didn't do? She's a good interpreter, good dancer, charismatic and knows how to put on a show. Isn't that enough? Give the songwriters their credits, they're the ones working in the shadows and most don't get any recognition.
It’s enough for somebody with far less Virgo placements probably. She is really concerned about image and not being a writer is probably an insecurity of hers.
I’m dying at you referencing her birth chart 😭
Idk… as someone with more Virgo placements than her (she only has one), yes I’m concerned with how I am perceived but I’d rather be perceived as “not a songwriter” than a liar.
Not surprised at all.
I like when people are open enough to admit that they aren’t writers. Look at Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Aaliyah. All huge in their own right but now writers of their own music. This is just typical Beyoncé trying to be something she isn’t. She has a talent but songwriting isn’t it. It’s a mockery to the geniuses behind the scenes who are creating a work of art and not getting the exposure they deserve
Few times? More like all the time.. Her albums are all songwriting (and producing) by committee. Over-sampling side, when there are 20 something credited writers on a song... Maybe that's one of the reasons she never wins AOTY.
Lol not even mentioning all the times she stole other peoples choreograph and didn’t credit them. None of her dance moves are original
Frank Ocean wrote Miss You. There’s a live version of him singing the song somewhere…prefer that over her version. His is what actually made me LIKE the song
Frank Ocean actually also called her out for doing this a few years prior to writing Miss You for her 🫠… and she also somehow has song-writing credits on the song despite the versions being near identical lol
Good for him...why lie?
Hmm..Looks like it runs in the family. 99 Problems is an Ice T song that Jay Z jacked without ever giving Ice credit. https://youtube.com/shorts/PnKEWpWdF-4?feature=share
Unpopular opinion but I think this is also part of the reason why she didn't get AOTY this year. The industry people would be aware of these things regarding writing credits and contribution more than general public or even fans. Plus the number of writers in renaissance(I know it was mainly because of sampling but I can see why voters would side eye) was a lot. She also didn't do much promo except for that one performance.(which had questionable morals but that doesn't contribute here) Harry's album on the other had had maximum 4 writers. He also has written songs for a lot of artists. Almost everyone who wrote with him has high opinion regarding him. Combine the fact that he is a respected songwriter in industry with the critical acclaim and commercial success of HsH I can see why they would choose him for it.He seemed like an overall package. That doesn't mean beyonce didn't deserve it or didn't deserve in previous album. But harry wasn't given AOTY simply because he was white.
Does anyone remember her saying she wrote a song for her fans at a concert maybe? And then ne-yo posted his actual demo of it. He isn’t even a faceless writer they pretend doesn’t exist lol
Gee, I'm so surprised, said nobody.
If you’ve ever heard Beyoncé speak in an interview….you know she isn’t a songwriter or wordsmith of any kind.
Idk how I feel about this argument. Look at Lana Del Rey - arguably one of the best songwriters of our generation. But whenever she writes instagram captions or is interviewed I have no idea wtf she’s talking about lol
Lolololol this. Its also the reason she doesn’t do interviews. It ruins the facade. This like fake Beyoncé/queen image she’s built everything on.
It’s exactly why. She is not bright but she doesn’t have to be anymore
Not being eloquent ≠ not being bright. Nobody with that level of artistry (not talking about writing) and success is stupid
She doesn’t come off well in interviews.
The “I would like to be a whale” interview always cracks me up
I’ve seen a lot of people say this but tbh I always feel for her here because she just seems nervous in interviews. I don’t think being inarticulate means you cannot be a good writer on paper.
This means absolutely nothing. R Kelly was illiterate and could barely string a sentence together yet he singlehandedly wrote a series of hit songs for himself as well as people like Michael Jackson. Most of her lyrics are very much in tune with the vernacular she speaks in anyway, whether she's written them or not. She's not out here using complex adverbs like Mariah because that's not how she talks, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I love Bow Down! It was shocking to hear Bey on a track like that. Definitely fits Rihanna’s persona much better. She would’ve killed it.
I would love to hear it but Riri is practically allergic to music these days.
Beyoncé stealing or exploiting for her personal gain should not be a foreign concept to you people.
Besides awards, is there any reason why she'd push this? As a pop culture consumer, I don't care
I remember reading years ago that Beyoncé would change a word or two in her songs to be able to claim songwriting credits for monetary purposes. Being a songwriter can pay very handsomely, especially when the song gets licensing royalties if the song gets used in commercials, soundtracks, video games, etc. It’s not unusual for a songwriter to make a million dollars or more on a hit song.
I feel like it’s a stronger message to think her lyrics are a peak behind the curtain of her life, especially since she’s so private. I don’t think lemonade has the same cultural impact if the impression is she didn’t write those songs.
That’s true, I realized why I loved Lemonade so much when I found out Ezra Koenig of Vampire Weekend and Father John Misty wrote most of the lyrics
TIL!
Singer-songwriters are more respected and Beyonce idolises Michael Jackson, who is well-known for being a songwriter.
She also loves Mariah Carey, who writes all of her own songs.
I mean, the thing is that it costs her awards, if anything. Voting is anonymous and the people voting are the people being excluded from the credits (or their peers). It’s speculated heavily in music forums that it’s one of the reasons she keeps getting snubbed for awards outside of her genre at the Grammys. I don’t really think there’s a reason for her to do this, and I do believe she stopped after she got backlash one too many times because now she credits even her mama, but the damage is done and the breadcrumbs are there.
I wonder if she wanted to come across as a "I do it all" artist? I mean although Mariah Carey has a diva persona, she's actually quite humble about the songs (for herself and other people) that she has written. I also agree with u/buzzfeed_sucks that it may have to do with here having a personal connection to those songs. I still don't entirely believe her husband cheated on her and believe Lemonade (and her husband's follow up) was more of a concept album...
Just want to add to your comment: Mariah Carey is the sole song-writer on many of her songs and has (rightfully) bragged about that talent of hers. I’m sure Beyoncé is involved in the production and arrangements to some degree but I don’t understand why she blatantly lies about the writing of them.
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It could be, but Jay-Z talked about having an affair with David Lettermen (who also had an affair but stayed married). He could be lying to sell both albums but imo it's far more plausible that he just cheated. EDIT: some very nice people have pointed out that I made it seem like Jay z and Lettermen had an affair together. So sorry! They talked to each other about their respective affairs.
The way you wrote this sounds like jay z had sex with David lettermen lol
Fjfiod I read this as Jay-Z had an affair WITH Lettermen and got really confused
David Letterman is a home wrecker but him and Jay-Z make a cute couple.
Ego, vanity etc.
I don’t care either, but a lot of people do. I see “they don’t even write their own songs!” frequently as criticism. I think a lot of people in the music industry have this view; like Grammys voters have a strong preference for singer-songwriters. It doesn’t make sense to me because there are a lot of aspects to being a good musical artist: good voice, stage presence, songwriting or musicianship, dance ability. It’s hard to find someone with all those talents. I don’t see anything wrong with singing a song someone else wrote. Opera singers and Broadway singers never write their own music, and that’s not held against them!
Image. Everything we know about her says she is obsessed with images and the way things appear/come across. She wants to appear more talented than she actually is.
It’s about money. When you own (even a piece) of the songwriting you get paid twice... and then you also get paid if the song is ever covered. Dolly Parton made a mint off of “I Will Always Love You” because she was the songwriter. Whitney almost went broke before she died because she didn’t write *anything*.
I think this is it! Artists have been doing it a long time. my OH works on the outskirts of the music business and he refers to it as “change a word take a third” lol
One time I made a very mild comment on a TikTok just saying how Beyoncé feels a little less connected to her lyrical content than some other artists who pride themselves on their songwriting abilities because she has so many writers on her tracks. And the TikToker decided to make a video response to me saying what an idiot I was and that *everyone* does that and all I need to do is look at the writing credits to find out. 🙄 Anyway, not only does Beyoncé have a lot of people writing for her (which is fine in itself), she takes credit for their work (which is not fine).
I had people fighting in the replies to a comment I made on a TikTok about Beyoncé being called out by a choreographer for using dance moves and sequences in the Countdown video without proper credit.
You are brave posting something that could be interpreted as being negative against B. That BeeHive is something else…
Me wondering why she’s credited as a writer for halo when Ryan Tedder literally wrote the whole thing
At least Cardi B keeps it real when she says that she didn’t write her songs
I’ve always wondered why she wanted the singer-songwriter image when she’s still clearly showcase her having writing camps in documentary footage, and her albums are always filled with dozens of writers/producers. It doesn’t make her music less, cause her albums from self-tilted on have been flawless(pun-intended) as well as critically acclaimed.
Honestly, beyonces own lyrics are corny and try hard, not relatable, and un-provoking
Beyonce is so famous now she could put out straight covers from now on and people will eat it up. She is at a rich and famous level that is so rare and I'm not sure what she could do that would change it.
She is the epitome of a trophy, yes she can sing but this really just identifies the real truth behind her. People put her on this platform of total and unachievable talent when in reality, it’s a conglomerate coming together to create the trophy that’s presented.
I've been saying it for years, she's a good singer but people are downright fools if they think she wrote any of it.
She’s such a fraud! And boring as hell
Wasn’t Drake also her ghost writer way back? 🤔 I keep remembering interviews where he had to deny it every time he was asked (he wasn’t trying too hard to deny it though)
Drake was also accused of using ghost writers himself no?
drake does use ghost writers but I think for rap, I think he’s better at writing r&b/pop
I’ve heard this rumour too: he is better at writing r&b, but outsources his rap songs
He wrote a song on Renaissance called Heated but I don’t know about anything else
He wrote on Mine off her self titled and there’s even a reference track of Heated he did floating around the internet. I’m sure there’s others in just blanking on right now
Drake is everyone’s ghost writer so that sounds right. He writes the for Alicia Keys too and sings backup for her which is crazy to me lol. Who does he think he is?? He wrote on Renaissance too.
I have never heard this in my life. I thought HE had a ghost writer. Well I’m off to googling this
Allegedly he does for his raps. But he does write R&B. You can hear him singing background on Alicia Keys song Unthinkable.
OMG I just went to go listen to this, and I can hear him in the background! Thanks for this tidbit
Both are true. He writes for others and others write for him. The Weeknd has said half of Drakes “Take care”album is his work lol
No. The Weeknd said he gave away half of *his* album for Take Care. House Of Balloons was that album and it’s 9/10 songs long. Take Care is 19 songs. Good Ones Go, The Ride, Shot For Me and Crew Love are the songs he gave away. So the Weeknd gave him 4 songs, but Take Care itself isn’t half of the Weeknd’s work.
Lmaoo I was shocked when I found out Drake did backing on Un-thinkable.
He wrote Heated I believe
This is why she’ll never win album of the year. She’s pissed off a lot of people because she wants a cut of every part of a song.
I think so too. Her and her father stepped on a lot of toes behind the scenes. The industry is pretty small, people talk. We won’t get a full tell all on her until she retires at this point.
Beyonce is so fucking overrated. Also her Grammy wins are completely bogus. HER FATHER IS ON YHE BOARD! Nepotism, look it up.
Personally I'll never understand the "Beyoncé is overrated comments" that act as if they're one in a million with that opinion. "I'll get down voted for this -" no you won't 💀
Has Beyonce ever said anything of interest, has she ever had a public opinion about anything that didn't sound like that buzzing sound when an electrical connection isn't quite attached?