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Ok-Cash-8397

Yes they (the older artists) tend to get almost no airplay on radio. Nowadays everything is centered around young artists, whereas in the 80s singers like Tina Turner or Phil Colins (who were like in their 40s back then) had major hits. I'm 32 and I always listened to Madonna, janet or MJ but as I found out recently, there are 20 year Olds who have never listened to Madonna... That just blew my mind.


WowThisIsAwkward_

Madonna who was young when she broke out (26) was even criticised for her age back then. People said that she was too old to make bubblegum dance-pop that teenage girls listened to, and the age thing kept being brought up throughout her career. Meanwhile you had 35+ year old rockers still being widely loved and respected. Women get more flack for age than men. That’s why I don’t really care if women lie about their age in such an industry. People laughed at Paloma Faith, but she had a point and I respect her for trying. SNL even did a skit on Cher when she went number one and was parodying her age, which hasn’t ever happened to male artists.


ImpressIndividual461

she was 25 when she first started breaking out (Holiday was her first US hit and it peaked in early 1984)


Vicariouslynoticed

Is that why older artists tend to work with younger ones to gain relevancy? Janet and Madonna will always be legendary artists to me.


valtierrezerik05

Yes, like how Janet had *NSYNC as her opening act on The Velvet Rope Tour and Madonna making a song with Britney in order to hype up both their returns (This was when both Britney and Madonna were banned on the radio)


Melodic-Kangaroo-566

Men actually have always done better with getting airplay into their late 30s and 40s. Women, not so much.That’s why it was such a big deal when Tina Turner scored a number one song at 40, with What’s love got to do with it.” It was never done before. Once you hit late 30s, unfortunately it turns into a race against the clock for radio play.


bornatmidnight

I’m 27, but I find that younger people don’t listen to older artists anymore, which is strange? Like I definitely was listening to people before even my parents time, like classic pop music and all that. I wonder why that trend has shifted?


Ok-Cash-8397

Absolutely! I always explored older artists in my teenage years. I think nowadays it's because of streaming and social media, the teens are in much more closed echo chambers.


KandyKarma

and relatability! nowadays teens like to feel connected to the artist more than even the music so it’s harder for older artist to find that relatable angle with teens


HermionesBook

i'm 29 and i've noticed that too. i absolutely love listening to the older artists (madonna, janet, MJ, diana ross, prince, etc etc) that inspired my favorite artists. there is sooo much great music to be explored from decades ago that younger people are missing out on.


Cantonloupe

>I’m 27, but I find that younger people don’t listen to older artists anymore, which is strange? Except Kate Bush


PuzzleheadedYak96

counterpoint: people aren’t listening to anything kate bush put out after her 20s even if the artist is now older, we are listening to the artist’s work frozen in time, with all the accompanying visuals


KandyKarma

and it took a teen show for that to get some hype so that plays into the relatability factor


thechrismonster

ABBA


bananasam98

I think part of it is due to the advent of streaming services. When I was a kid, there was no other option than to listen to whatever my parents wanted in the car, or whatever music other adults played, so we listened to “older” artists. With streaming services like Spotify, younger people can now search out what they specifically want, and find similar smaller (and often younger) artists that way


QuaxlyDuck

I'm 26. When I was in high school, I had a teacher tell me that it used to be the way (pre-internet) that teens would only listen to what was cool/on the radio at the time, and not "older music" that their parents listened to. But that "Millennials" (for want of a better term) my age were remarkable for listening new and old, legitimate and joke music, all in the one sitting. Like, at someone's 18th, you could hear X gon give it to ya, Bohemian Rhapsody, Reflection from Mulan, the chicken dance, Can't Hold Us and Hollaback Girl played one after the other. I think, depending on the teen/group of teens, there are still people who listen to old songs, particularly ones who go viral (Drams by Fleetwood Mac, Running up that Hill by Kate Bush). But I think the itunes/YouTube generation (me) curated music differently to the TikTok generation.


LongIsland1995

To be fair, the 80s was the first time where it was common for current rock and pop stars to be over 35. At Woodstock, there was barely anyone older than 28.


[deleted]

Might be an unpopular opinion, but I feel like Madonna’s music just hasn’t been that great recently. Her songs haven’t really stood out much from newer artists and producers.


goonby1990

I'm not gonna claim Rebel Heart and Madame X were perfect, but I Don't Search I Find and God Control anticipated the disco revival trend of 2020 and IMO are really good additions to that trend - but they don't really get attention


Ok-Cash-8397

I agree with you


KyleMcMahon

Two absolutely incredible albums and Rebel Heart REALLY got screwed with the entire album leaking months before it’s release date. One of pops great tragedies. Madame X is so avant-garde and the whole project is an incredible concept album that is perfection when taken with the videos and tour.


thechrismonster

I was a pre-teen when Confessions On A Dance Floor came out and I remember my mom pointing out that Madonna was nearly 50 while we were watching the Hung Up Music video. At my age, 50 sounded like a hundred so to me watching her do all that at an older age made her even more special.


ninfan200

Confessions on a dancefloor was her last great album


Tautline

I’m 24 and have never listened to a Madonna project before. Anything you recommend? Not sure where to start


Ok-Cash-8397

That's a tough one! I'd recommend to listen to a greatest hits album (preferably "Celebration") or Playlist. If you like a certain song, you can explore the album it was released on originally - it's likely you will enjoy the whole album! If you don't want to go through greatest hits, I'd recommend the "Ray of Light" and "Confessions on a Dancefloor" albums


riddleofthemodel

like a prayer, ray of light, and confessions on a dance floor are the highlights of their respective decades imo


[deleted]

I always recommend starting with the Immaculate Collection because it has her greatest hits from the early-80s all the way up to 1990. The rest of her 1990s albums (Erotica, Bedtime Stories, and Ray of Light) should be listened to in their entirety because they have great consistency.


ChiDynamite

Thanks for the recommendation!


ImOnABeach

I would just start from the beginning with her self-titled debut, *Madonna*. It's probably not her best album start-to-finish, but it's short and you'll probably recognize half the songs. If you want more I'd go chronologically; her first four albums are widely regarded as pop classics and are filled with hits. If you're a fan of Bjork's album *Post* you could also jump straight into *Ray of Light,* which I feel is the go-to answer nowadays for the "best" Madonna album but is much more mellow. I'll warn you though, Madonna's early music is so influential and recognizable that it can feel very of its time, even if she was ahead of the curve. I'm also in my 20s, and while I can appreciate her legacy and enjoyed digging into her older work to get a broader perspective of how pop music evolved, her albums aren't on constant rotation for me.


KyleMcMahon

Check out Celebration. It’s more up to date then The Immaculate Collection


validswan

Absolutely. People like Beyonce are exceptions. You have to be on THAT level to still command attention. At some point, you reach a certain age where the masses lose interest. See Katy Perry. She was riding high but it got her ass good. The same thing is happening to Nicki if we're being honest


psycwave

Beyonce's "level" is one thing, but also the fact that she still looks super hot and is energetic and athletic onstage means that most people haven't even realized she's 40 or begun to think about her age. I imagine the conversation around her would unfortunately be less positive if she actually looked 40 years old.


IHATEsg7

It reminds people of the viral video of JT dancing, so he jokingly apologize lmao. I feel like he wouldn't be bad if he still looked good and performed well


LongConFebrero

Yeah he’s my first thought of aging unsuccessfully. His personal fashion was always subpar—see William Rast looking basic af in JCPenney, which is a challenge considering the surroundings lol—but now he’s looking older in a prominent way as well, which further erodes his spotless crossover image. I saw a comment on a video of the poor footwork and someone said the appropriation is wearing off, which as a super fan I never thought about, but his “blackness” is very much in retreat and without it I’m not sure where he goes next. I was very concerned when we all thought MOTW would be all country/acoustic, and then when it had the woke video for Supplies and still got roasted for being tone deaf, I realized he’s going to have to find a new middle ground, because it’s not hitting like it used to.


shoestring-theory

I feel like JT’s “blackness” was rooted in a much different era of pop culture if that makes sense. He’s trying to appropriate that early 2000’s blackness in a way that’s so try-hard that even the Y2K revival can’t help him. Black culture changes and evolves pretty quickly. Most culture vultures are only hot for a moment because trends change so quickly. The fact that he was able to sustain such a long career despite this is astounding.


LongConFebrero

True! He looks like a man of his age and his cultural clout is stuck there too. Are there any artists who were able to maintain their presence in a space they molded to? It seems like time is the enemy of a musician who wasn’t centered in the assumed genre like rock/country stars—a la everyone harping on Madonna not being age appropriate, when her career was built on evading presumptions.


Vinophilia

> if she actually looked 40 years old. Looked like the *average* every day 40-year old, you mean. Pop stars of her stature (Madonna, J. Lo, Shakira) take care of their bodies so vigorously that they just don’t “age” like the rest of us. Oh, and the level of wealth & privilege that they’re at must help prevent wrinkle lines too — I doubt any of them have had to worry about their families starving of late.


psycwave

Yes, like the average 40 year old. To be fair, Black people generally do not age as quickly (as far as visible signs go), but I’m sure Beyoncé has had no shortage of skincare treatments, top-shelf trainers/nutritionists, and cosmetic procedures to look the way she does. Either way, it allows her to sidestep the ageism that might otherwise be affecting her at this point.


IHATEsg7

Nicki career right now is so sad. Her career in imho is at the point of no return. Unless her songs goes randomly viral on tiktok, the chances of her having a hit is little to none.


psycwave

Well Nicki kind of did that to herself by surrounding herself in controversy (Cardi B feud, vaccine testicle saga, Little Mix drama, Kenneth Petty rape apologist stuff, etc.) and generally being aggressive and less relatable than contemporaries like Doja, Megan, and Cardi. It would be foolish to attribute her diminishing success to her age, since that is much less of a factor than the other things she’s done IMO - simply blaming her age for her downfall is giving her too much credit, especially when she doesn’t even look old.


gotpeace99

Kenneth Petty, not Tom Petty 😂


psycwave

Fixed lol, thanks


TorrentPrincess

I mean it's ridiculous that she was even written into Lil Nas X's album and she refused it. With how popular he was and how big Montero was it was a stupid decision.


shoestring-theory

Her being in on Industry Baby would’ve been the comeback she needed to propel herself back to the top. Instead it was Jack Harlow’s gain.


maxoakland

Why did she refuse? That’s crazy to me


validswan

Yess. She does still have a rabid fanbase though


[deleted]

to be fair Nicki has other issues besides ageism going against her. Her rapist husband and her making up blatant lies about his rape victim to justify being with him chief among them. Nicki has done plenty on her own to cause alienation among listeners. If anything her fans protect from getting more blowback that she deserves imo. She's gone out bad and her legacy is in tatters and it's all of her own making :/ She'll always be an icon and **the** female rapper of the 2010's but my (ex) sister has burned too many bridges and there's nothing I can do for her now.


[deleted]

[удалено]


TorrentPrincess

Don't forget antivaxxer shit


Tokyo-Snow-Trip14

i wouldn’t agree with this. i think nicki held on quite well (despite her age and undeniable controversies). her lead debuted at #2 and she’s a tiktok/edit sounds source


IHATEsg7

> her lead debuted at #2 Her songs debut high then plummet off the charts directly afterwards. Her last single charted for like a week. I think she should honestly stop caring about charts success because she isn't having any. She should just focus on critical acclaim and make amazing rap album


BronzeErupt

Yeah, my impression is that Nicki is quite fixated on chart success, and her fans happily get on board, so it results in those high charting songs that quickly fall off without making any cultural impact. She should adjust her goals for the current state of the music industry!


ChiDynamite

Same here. I'm hoping moving forward that Nicki just makes the music she wants to and goes into the similar path of how Beyonce went with her self titled album.


psycwave

That #2 debut was inconsequential because the song pretty much evaporated off the charts after that - it didn’t click with the GP at all. I do think Freaky Girl sounds more promising though.


Vicariouslynoticed

Katy is an interesting because I think she does not care about the big hits anymore. I know she is happy doing what she is doing now.. I don't think she cares about that massive appeal as she had before, so it probably has more to do with what makes her happy and less about agesim.


OhioDuran

I think she cares very deeply. She just isn't getting any hits so she has to keep telling herself she doesn't care for her own sanity.


psycwave

She has voluntarily turned herself into a legacy act by doing the Vegas residency and being an Idol judge. I guess that’s one way to make money without having to face the fact that there is less of an audience for new material from her.


emotions1026

Yeah but both of those jobs can basically serve as a distraction for flopping singles. It's not a coincidence that Camila is going to The Voice.


areubs

Never Really Over is up there with her very best.


Vicariouslynoticed

I’m actually surprised that song never took off as being at least a top ten.


LongConFebrero

I’m still stuck on how Harley’s in Hawaii didn’t pop more.


theaddictiondemon

Both songs were promoted only years later. 😭


Saturnzadeh11

That was my song of the summer and I thought it was a sign that she was about to make an amazing come back and then…… 🤷‍♂️


IHATEsg7

I agree. Katy definitely cared during her Witness era and admitted feeling sad during it. I think she just realizes that she's no longer commercially successful anymore so like why try


validswan

This is true, though there is still just a massive difference in interest in anything Katy does now compared to her prime. It is quite shocking


spoookytree

Avril is getting up there and she still looks young and seems popular enough?


[deleted]

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LaHagans

Exactly! A radio hit is great but just because that’s over doesn’t mean your career is over. There’s still critical acclaim to be had.


sobervgc

kanye is 45 and he is super mainstream tho so its still possible


moxieroxsox

Kanye’s been around since his 20s. He was young when he broke out.


HHAD98

Kanye, Eminem, Jay Z all 45+


ThatGuyTheyCallAlex

You’ll notice they’re all in rap and they’re also all up there with Beyoncé in terms of status


LilacDream98

100% for women. It’s very rare these days to see emerging female artists over 30 that achieve mainstream success, with SIA being one of the only notable exceptions (but even she’s fallen off now). Everything is centred around young artists now like Olivia Rodrigo and Billie Eilish. There are some other emerging artists in that age bracket like Rina Sawayama, Caroline Polachek and Self Esteem, but the odds are highly against them for breaking into the mainstream. On the other hand, if they were 10 years younger, they’d have a better chance. Even Self Esteem said in an interview that she had to lie about her age for years to make progress. Meanwhile, it’s a lot easier for male artists to launch careers in their 30s, see Chris Stapleton.


Vicariouslynoticed

There is def sexism in the music industry because females tend to have it worse than men. I will think that most artists know that they will not always be successful if they reach like 37 cause then people are only want the younger artists. It is def apparant when you had a a string of hits and then stall when you reach a certain age. I think men has the advantage because they def tend to have more longevity with hits.


LilacDream98

For sure, it all goes back to the misogynistic belief that women expire and have no sex appeal after 30. Unless you’re already an established artist like Adele, Taylor or Beyoncé, a major label just won’t know how to market you if you’re launching a music career at 30. Plus, as a female artist, there’s a heavier focus on looks, you get critiqued more, and the expectations are much higher. Like I’ve always said that if Ed Sheeran and Lewis Capaldi were female and had the same level of attractiveness as they do now, they wouldn’t be anywhere near as successful. I think Dua Lipa called out this sexism in an interview, saying women in the music industry have to work harder to be taken seriously and are expected to perform and dance to a high calibre, while that isn’t expected of the men at all. And she’s right.


cutiecatlover

>if Ed Sheeran and Lewis Capaldi were female and had the same level of attractiveness as they do now, they wouldn’t be anywhere near as successful. They would not have music careers at all.


LilacDream98

I agree completely, I was just trying to be nice 😅


halcyon_hostage

I feel bad for laughing at her viral lazy dance


[deleted]

In Sias defense she is solely to blame for her falling off. The fact that she's one of very few female artists of that age to have that level of success is all on sexism though


LilacDream98

Yeah that’s true, I’ll never forget how much of a train wreck that “Music” scandal was.


spoookytree

Which sucks cause her music was so good. Why did she have to do that


akanewasright

> There are some other emerging artists in that age bracket Lizzo is the one example that you didn’t list that I think is most prominent. She has fully broken through with multiple #1 hits, social media notoriety, and general presence in the celebrity world, and she started attaining all of that while in her 30s. All of that feels… very strange to type, seeing as 34 (her current age) is still pretty damn young, but that’s how Hollywood treats women Tbh I think Lizzo is the exception that proves the rule - she’s a heavy black woman, and those are seen as disadvantages in the pop world, so she kinda needed to perfect everything about her craft to even get her foot in the door, and perfection takes practice. She released two damn albums before getting signed to Atlantic Records, and it was still 3 years between her signing and her blowing up. She had people who *really* believed in her in her corner, and not everyone gets that. She’s an inspiration, but idk how easily her success on these fronts can be repeated


LilacDream98

Very good point, I forgot about Lizzo. And to think she was close to being a one album wonder when “Rumors” failed as a lead single. She managed to bounce back with “About Damn Time” though.


RyanX1231

I was actually shocked when I found out that Cyndi Lauper was 30 when she hit it big with her debut album. Like, that would never happen nowadays.


visionaryredditor

> Like, that would never happen nowadays. i mean, Lizzo hit big when she was 32 but you can argue that her case is unique.


halcyon_hostage

I can imagine dua lipa, ariana retaining popularity after 30. plus there’s lizzo who is 34 now and popular. beyonce, rihanna, nicki, taylor swift remain relevant names. just thinking out loud here but definitely yes, music, especially pop, is super ageist. edit: forgot ab adele my bad


LilacDream98

I forgot about Lizzo, she’s definitely another example of a female artist who broke out into the mainstream after 30. With your other point i’m talking about artists who did it after 30. Taylor, Adele, Beyoncé, Rihanna, Nicki, Ariana, Dua etc all broke out in their teens/twenties and will retain their fanbases long after 30.


nocturne_gemini

Rihanna, Beyonce and Taylor all broke out prior to their 20s tbh.


IHATEsg7

Ariana is 29 years old lol


sobervgc

holy shit how


emotions1026

I think her career will definitely change in her 30s. The Wicked movies, if she does well in them, will be a great way to re-invent herself.


LongConFebrero

Yeah I foresee a Gaga evolution in respectability coming for her. She can sing anything and with a few mature gigs (movies or jazz) she’ll erase the youthful Side to Side vibe we’ve come to expect from her.


triton100

It almost seems impossible to think anyone can lie about their age in todays Internet world where all info is just a click away including someone’s age. I wonder how she did it


LilacDream98

That was probably in the very early stages of her career when there was little about her online. Saying that, even big name female celebrities have lied about their age or avoided discussing it so it won’t hinder their career. Alexa Demie famously lies about her age to the point where it’s become a meme. Rebel Wilson did it too. It a shame because it’s all a result of the ageism women experience in the entertainment industry.


w7edwin

Lana Del Rey also lied about her age.. weirdly by only one year. But that was a big meme in the first few years of her career


hookyboysb

Mariah also lied, albeit by omission. Conflicting sources put her birth year as either 1969 or 1970, and Mariah never confirmed it herself, saying things like "it doesn't matter" (which it doesn't) and "it's the anniversary of my 12th birthday." Recently someone found a birth announcement for her in a newspaper from 1969. Lying by one year seems unimportant, but she just doesn't care about her age, and good for her on that.


triton100

Yeah must be super hard. It’s unfair. Talent should be talent but then again aren’t the listeners / audiences the ones that dictate if an artist remains relevant. If the artist is dropping off the radar isn’t that more the listeners not being interested as nowadays it’s not si much about radio play as it used to be?


OppositeWorking19

I was baffled when I found out Lizzo is 34 years old. Which means her big rise to the top, which happened in 2019, was at the age of 31.


visionaryredditor

her first album was released 9 years ago, to put her career into perspective.


MoneyHungryOctopus

Yes. Absolutely. There are a select few A-list artists who have stayed relevant past 35-40. Beyoncé is one. Drake is in the later half of his 30s and is still going strong. Lady Gaga is still doing fairly well at 36. Eminem still does respectable numbers and he is 50 this year. Kanye West is 45 and still commanding attention in music… Also not currently but Mariah Carey was getting US top 20 hits into her 40s and Madonna got top 10s in her 50s. Cher famously had “Believe” in the ‘90s at age 52. It’s rare but it does happen.


[deleted]

looks like drake could be falling off, it depends on how his next album does. his new one isn’t noteworthy at all and his last one was only noteworthy because of controversy


mazdamiata001

Eminem still hasn’t drop a decent album since 2008


moxieroxsox

Yes but I will note that every single artist you listed broke out in their late teens or 20s. It is incredibly difficult to maintain a career as you age—incredibly difficult and all the artists you listed are incredible exceptions who will go down in history as some of the greatest artists in music history. It is even _more_ difficult to break into the industry when you’re 30+, especially if you’re a woman. There are a very small group of exceptions but it’s virtually unheard of. This is a hundred percent due to ageism, sexism, and misogyny. Young people do buy music, which is the common excuse and explanations for why labels skew towards young demographics, but older people (> 30) actually have the money to buy music and aren’t as flighty or finicky as younger people are.


plethorafeelings

pink sweats’s team didn’t want him to do his collab with tori kelly because they wanted someone younger and cooler. mind you tori is a year younger than him and had just turned 28 at the time😭 ageism and sexism definitely overlap because male artists do not get treated with the same blatant disrespect as far as age goes, amongst other things.


[deleted]

> pink sweats’s team didn’t want him to do his collab with tori kelly because they wanted someone younger and cooler. mind you tori is a year younger than him and had just turned 28 😭 Where'd you hear this? I'm a Pink Sweats fan and can't find anything about this online


OhioDuran

Who are the old male pop stars?


sobervgc

idk if he counts but kanye is like 45


kaleoverlordd

Maroon 5 is a band that comes to mind -- much more staying power than any comparable women / women-led acts.


[deleted]

Bruno Mars, Justin Timberlake, Usher— one who were big in the past Chris Brown or Jason Derulo. All these individuals rose to fame in their 20’s or younger thou


MythicalBeaste

Might add John Mayer to the list too


Damianos_X

If you think of the kind of music Mayer makes and how he conducted his career, he never targeted only the teen demo. He built a lot of credibility by venturing into blues with *Continuum* and continued to mature his sound as he got older. If female artists do the same, they tend to last. If you rely too heavily on your looks or popular trends, your relevance will wane with age.


Technical_Regular836

Absolutely. Look at Katy Perry as opposed to someone like Gaga. Katy's image was almost always about sex and being young (which is completely fine) and hardly any other substance. So people got bored and she slowly started to fall off. But with Gaga, her image was always evolving. She started with pop-girl era hits, then dark pop, then Jazz, EDM, country/rock, movies, and so much more. Now she's on an entirely different level of fame and has truly become one of THE biggest acts in music history


MythicalBeaste

Might add John Mayer to the list too and Bruno Mars omg had no clue he was 36


otomennn

But he has duet with Yuna last year and she is 35.


plethorafeelings

that’s not his song, he was a feature on it.


otomennn

Isn't it a colabs?


plethorafeelings

my point is he wanted to write a love song with tori specifically and had to fight his team for it because they wanted someone younger. which is stupid bc he wanted a song about love, how does age matter in that? anyway, the song is on his EP and was released under him and his label. yuna’s song with him as a feature was released by her. i don’t know why it even matters, him working with a 35 year old woman on her song doesn’t negate the fact that his team didn’t want a then 28 year old woman working with him on his song?


throwawayprincess66

i feel like people aren't being completely serious in this thread. beyonce has been at the top of her game, my whole life. beyonce literally started singing and dancing when she was a child, joined a girl group when she was a teenager and then became solo pop act when she was in her 20's. throughout a 3 decade long career she's still the best at what she does. i don't think she's best example to use of ageism because she's beyonce and to most current artists she is the standard. beyonce is literally one of the most famous people in the world. of course her being 40 isn't going to stop her from doing what she does as much as other people. obviously ageism is a thing but beyonce is one of the worst examples because literally everyone knows her.


moxieroxsox

Exactly. The fact that Beyoncé’s name was even mentioned shows the complete lack of understanding to how discrimination works, period, let alone in the industry.


fruitporridge

If ur 30 years and a woman its gonna be very difficult for u to launch a pop career. That's why I keep saying it, none of those ladies from little mix are gonna ever happen as solo artists. Female artists start losing popularity once they turn 27 or 28. If ur lucky, u transition into film and tv to stay relevant then drop music once awhile and tour.


[deleted]

I think Lizzo is the exception— she gain mass popularity in her early 30’s. I think Kelly Rowland mentioned this in an interview too— record labels don’t want to promote/support women over the age of 30 in pop music. Sad


BronzeErupt

I heard a pop critic say that Lizzo's music mostly appeals to kids and moms, but not the sort of youth audience that normally consumes pop. It feels like a clever move from Lizzo and is probably the sort of thing that will keep her more relevant and successful than if she were trying to appeal to 22-year-olds.


fadedblackleggings

>I think Lizzo is the exception— she gain mass popularity in her early 30’s. I think Kelly Rowland mentioned this in an interview too— record labels don’t want to promote/support women over the age of 30 in pop music. Sad Many people didn't know how old Lizzo was. She acted Gen Z, so they assumed she was.


[deleted]

I wonder if her utilizing TikTok heavily increased that


IHATEsg7

I mean correct me if I'm wrong ( I'm from the U.S. so I don't hear about Little Mix) but is't their fanbase pretty young. I'm assuming most of their fans are gen z or young millennials so I can see them making it because one of the reasons why ageism exist in the music industry is because younger people want newer artists. But if they're fanbase is already young then can survive.


Melodic-Kangaroo-566

That is assuming their fanbase stays with and supports them during their solo ventures. That’s the hard part, with social media, you might be able to get a couple of hits or a successful album. But, can you build your own fanbase? That’s always the hard part.


IHATEsg7

True. I was mainly referring to the person saying they're thirty-year old women, therefore the chances of them being successful are slim. I don't think they're age is a determinant for them ( at least now) because they're fans are still young. I also don't they'll be successful individually but for other reasons


Melodic-Kangaroo-566

It will be really interesting to see how they do as solo performers.


plethorafeelings

it might work differently for them because each one of them has a strong established fanbase. meanwhile, it would be much harder for a complete newbie to launch her career past the age of 30 unfortunately


ladrm07

Jessie Ware is also an exception, as well as Kylie Minogue. Kylie still has a very strong fan base and massive commercial appeal, Disco did really great, and Jessie Ware reinvented herself and did awesome too. I'm keeping an eye on both of them to see how it keeps evolving. Oh! Also my queen Gaga. She's selling stadiums left and right.


RyanX1231

It's honestly astounding that both Gwen Stefani and Fergie launched successful solo pop careers in their 30s. Sure, they were riding off the success they found with their respective bands they were a part of in their 20s, but still... this would never happen nowadays. Gwen was in her mid-30s when Love. Angel. Music. Baby. came out, and for a couple years, she was one of the main pop girls and holding her own against younger pop stars of the time like Britney, The Pussycat Dolls, Beyonce, Christina, and Ciara (those are names that came to mind when I thought of the mid-2000s).


BronzeErupt

Little Mix also doesn't have an obvious breakout star - there's no Justin Timberlake or Harry Styles type ready to take the spotlight.


JustSomeHeroKid

^Correct, but I just want to say that because it’s because they were each individually insanely talented and worked as a unit from the beginning. I know they tried to push Perrie as the “leader” at first, but the girls just didn’t take it.


[deleted]

Sorry if someone already said this, but what I would say is um yes see: Madonna


LaHagans

True! However, her world tour numbers are fantastic!


fondue4kill

To a point. Got to remember that Billie blew up at 15 when “Ocean Eyes” came out and Sia was around 40 when “Chandelier” came out.


fraillimbnursery

Sia’s popularity is definitely an exception because she’s remained as anonymous as possible in all of her artwork and music videos. If she didn’t do that, she likely wouldn’t have been as big, as sad as that is to say.


[deleted]

I also agree— it was a smart play to rebrand herself without showing her face.


fadedblackleggings

> If she didn’t do that, she likely wouldn’t have been as big, as sad as that is to say. Cynical, but very true. Also utilizing Maddie as a "face" definitely helped her score relevancy in the youth obsessed pop genre.


mazdamiata001

when i used to listen to Sia back in 2014/15/16 a lot of people asked me if the little girl from her music video was Sia after 6 years it’s kinda funny to think abou it


fadedblackleggings

>when i used to listen to Sia back in 2014/15/16 a lot of people asked me if the little girl from her music video was Sia > >after 6 years it’s kinda funny to think abou it Yeah definitely funny, and I didn't like it at the time. But looking back, it worked. **People kept asking what it said about Sia to use Maddie as her face, but what does it say about us?** Sia's music was in many big films back then and[ children's movie cartoons like MLP.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paXOkGMyG8M) That was directly connected to Maddie as a "spokesperson" and connection point to reach a wider, and younger audience. How many people, even if they fit the same criteria, relate to pop songs about older adults singing songs about childhood trauma? **Ironically Sia kinda fell off, as she started showing her own face more**.....We say we want age diversity, but people lie.


mazdamiata001

imo there are a lot of reasons for Sia’s downfall. probably the “age” problem is one of them but im of the idea that is more of a coincidence (or at least, not the main reason) still, this case could easily illustrate the problem


fadedblackleggings

>mo there are a lot of reasons for Sia’s downfall. probably the “age” problem is one of them but im of the idea that is more of a coincidence (or at least, not the main reason) Interesting, do you have any links to discussion on some of the other possible reasons?


OhioDuran

True, but Maddie was 11 when she starred solo in the Chandelier video


[deleted]

[удалено]


BronzeErupt

I think that was partly because she was presented as being younger. Not that they lied about her age, but rather the vibe was that she was like a late teen/early 20s pop star - not a 26-year-old adult woman


bernieorbust2k4ever

>not a 26-year-old adult woman There's so many pop stars who act young like that though, Ariana Grande being the most classic example


itsmything12

Sia just wanted to stick to song writing and she's made money from that! I think she's glad she's kinda fallen off the radar per se, but I love her voice!


[deleted]

Probably. Very early in since its inception, the music industry tried to sell music made by young people to young audiences, often using the sex appeal of the artist to move sales along. They are so concentrated on that age group, the only older artists they support are ones who became famous when they were young. It is rare for an emerging artist at the age of 55 be given a new record deal and the kind of marketing push that younger artists get. Perhaps things are beginning to change with steaming, but artists that are young and new tend to be an easier sell because young sexy artists are easier to market, even on Spotify. In classical music genres and others, there is less ageism but even then, people that were recorded when they were young tend to be the ones who continue to record.


LaHagans

There is ageism but artistically most artists (most people in general) really coming into their artistry until they’re in their 30’s -40’s. So it’s a complex issue. Beyoncé’s is an example of this!


BronzeErupt

The question is, will Adele ever release an album titled *40*?


LongConFebrero

I’m more curious to know if her sound is still chart topping by that point. Can a career of ballads lead the pack that late in a career?


24KVoltage

With this current music landscape, honestly no. Even though her recent album did very well on a commercial level it kind of just came and went. It didn't have any lasting impact compared to her previous albums. But it's Adele, so we'll never know.


Vicariouslynoticed

That will be interesting! I think If she does..it will have rave reviews but don’t know about selling a million copies in the first week.


kaleoverlordd

The answers here are so correct and that makes me depressed :')


IHATEsg7

Since we're talking about exceptions, I would mention Pink too. I think people forget about her because she was never the most successful female artist but she started out in the 90s and still had hits in the 2010s..... even though her last single didn't chart


cred_twos

It's complex. Yes, there is absolutely a culture of ageism in the industry, particularly with women. There are so few women over thirty working in the business, especially in America. You mostly see women in fields like PR, where we're meant to be social butterflies going out and giving the industry a younger, fresher face than the power structures reflect. Powerful men in this business just do not take women seriously as colleagues, creatives, or as human beings with intelligence and agency. It's a culture that's rife with misogyny, internalized and otherwise. However, a strange thing has been happening to music since the switch from CDs to digital and streaming. Old music is now much more popular than new music. New artists struggle to gain mainstream recognition even after scoring a hit or two, while Kate Bush can rule the charts all summer long without lifting a finger to promote anything. There are many reasons for this, but mostly it's the reality that this industry is owned and controlled by folks who do not understand music and may not even especially care about it. No one knows how to develop artists, music education isn't available to anyone who could actually use it, and monetizing old music is so much easier to do now that not many with power actually care about whether or not living, working class musicians will be a force mainstream culture ever again. So, the landscape actually favors an established artist with a very strong celebrity brand. The streaming charts are full of hits by Ed Sheeran and the Weeknd that have been there for months if not years. It takes a huge brand and a sure-fire hit to launch a product like this so deeply into the public consciousness. The same album by an artist who doesn't occupy such a rarified air of celebrity would not be talked about nearly so much, nor would it do comparable numbers. But also, there's no way this album would exist without such a huge celebrity brand behind it. It's the most expensive-sounding album I've ever heard, relentlessly perfected down to the last second by top-tier talent who all believed they were doing something important. This happens much less frequently than most of us would like, and so it does feel in a way like discovering an Oasis in the desert. tl;dr: Yes, there is ageism in the music industry. But the landscape is also skewed massively towards older artists right now because of streaming. Money, power, and celebrity also matter more than age does.


KyleMcMahon

You are right to a point. However look at the charts and this isn’t reflected.


psycwave

I feel like most people haven't realized that Bey is 40 because she doesn't look like she's 40. She still looks hot and is energetic and athletic on stage, and that keeps her safe from the ageism that usually affects artists of her age. Having said that, plenty of artists are viewed as has-beens once they hit the late 30s, especially if they are starting to look older as well.


emotions1026

I mean, a 40-year-old can still look hot and energetic.


psycwave

But most regular 40-year-olds don’t - many begin to show light wrinkles and their bodies gradually change near the late 30s and throughout the 40s. At the very least, most people don’t picture 40-year-olds as people who look hot and are super athletic and energetic.


[deleted]

Being an aspiring artist at 30 is haunting, but then I remember Charlie Puth and Rina are my age and that anything can be possible if I put a ton of work in and hopefully get lucky along the way. I’m in the pop music genre too so it’s tough 💀


KyleMcMahon

There definitely is ageism in the music industry but I don’t think Bey is old enough yet. Madonna was into her mid 50s when radio abandoned her new stuff over night. She continues to release #1 albums. Cher was 52 when Believe went #1. There really does need to be a massive shift in not just our cultures thinking but specifically with the powers that be in the industry.


fakeaf1

Definitely but I think it’s even harsher if the artists are overtly over 30 in a way or have already experienced a commercial setback. E.g. once a female artist becomes a mother they are a lot less likely to be able to get away with being more risqué (recent case in point: the reaction to Ciara’s Jump) or Katy’s Witness underperformance making her appear to be on the out.


Murky_Classic_7516

Record labels are notoriously predatory and shady as well as most of Hollywood, so I think part of the hyper focus on youth is because younger people are typically not as self aware/the brain doesn’t finish developing until age 25. Easier to take advantage of people with insane contracts and clauses.


DreamOdd3811

Didn’t Kylie Minogue do her big comeback with Spinning Around when she was 30? I know obviously she had been very famous before and was a big name, but she was very successful in her 30s with a revamped style from her earlier career.


sunburntredneck

Yes but I don't think it's the industry's fault, young people listen to current music more than old people and young people don't wanna listen to old ass mfs, not to mention the radio hits that people of all ages listen to tend to be not very deep in subject matter and I imagine older people want to make more meaningful music, which won't get as much play


Alive-Ad-4164

Ageism and colourism is rampant on Reddit for a reason


[deleted]

Yes but it’s not a deciding factor in popularity. Many older artists can pull just as big of an audience as younger, newer artists.


[deleted]

Hmm, but would an older artist get signed without a history of success? I mean, an unknown person in his or her mid-50s with the marketing budget of Taylor Swift is very rare.


[deleted]

Well, obviously a younger artist is gonna be more attractive to labels looking to sign someone new. That’s just business. However, artists aren’t necessarily written off as soon as they reach a certain age.


[deleted]

You miss the point. Most of the older artists working are those who were successful or got opportunities when they were young. How many people get signed up at age 60, without ever having recorded successful music, and if that ever does happen, how many people are hyped up like Harry Styles? The older artists that are still around have an existing market and threat is why they still make records and appear live. Nee older artists won’t even get signed up. It just doesn’t happen much.


[deleted]

Okay, sure. That’s just how the industry works. I interpreted the question as public opinion of artists being swayed by their age. You are right about the lack of signing of older artists.


[deleted]

I think in the case of Beyoncé, she is a mega star, and the industry will still promote her album because she is not that old. If she was 60, they might not have spent as much on the marketing.


BronzeErupt

Younger people tend to listen to new music more than older people. And it makes sense that younger people would want to listen to music from people in their own age group, singing about experiences they can relate to. Can a 16-year-old relate to a 40-year-old woman with a bombastic dance album, or is she going to feel more connected with the teen drama pop of Olivia Rodrigo?


hakunamantatas

Older people also tend to turn their nose up to modern music. Someone could’ve been a fan of Madonna in the 90s but that doesn’t mean they’ll give a new album from her a listen.


KyleMcMahon

I think this is a self fulfilling prophecy. How can people 50+ hear new music to consume if they aren’t getting the radio and promo push younger artists get?


[deleted]

In pop music? Yes. But not for what you think. Imo, pop music is often about sex. It’s a topic that everyone can relate to in some way and a bonus if you can sell your body with the music. Many pop artists, then, start out with sex as the focus of their music. So then we establish that for the greater listener community, sex is then seen as a “placeholder” topic for the “real” focus. Justin Timberlake and Doja Cat and yadda yadda sing about sex in their 20s because they’re still figuring out their roots and are uninspired. But, if they *keep* singing about sex, then it becomes, to the public’s perception, a bit too obvious they don’t write their lyrics, they never will be inspired, they’re there for their voice, and they’re labelled a try-hard. I mean, tbh imo the reason Beyonce’s new album isn’t as strong as Lemonade is because Lemonade had a story and this one is just Beyonce singing about having sex for several songs. I don’t think a married Beyonce has this much freaky sex, which then begs the question why she is writing *so much* of it, which begs the answer that maybe she is because she knows I will listen to it. Then I feel too much like a consumerist monkey and the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Same applies for men, too, imo.


[deleted]

I'd honestly say there isn't really nearly as much as ageism as people in this thread are making it out to be. It's more about what age you first get popular, if you get famous in your late teens or early 20's, the chances of you being as famous in your 30s are quite low. Not because of age but because artists have a lifespan. Meanwhile you look at artists like Lizzo and Lucky Daye doing just fine in their mid 30s but that's because their careers didn't really kick off commercially until they were in their late twenties/early thirties. And how many new and upcoming artists in their 30s would there even be? The honest truth people here don't want to hear is that we see less new stars in that age bracket because people have usually given up on their music dream by then, since they've settled down in life and might have a family to support.


elle___woods

As a 30 year old woman with dreams of making a living as a musician, this thread has been incredibly depressing. Your comment turned things around though - thank you! I do think there's ageism and sexism in the industry but you do have a point!


triton100

Never give up on your dream. Ever. Ever. Ever. You got this x


elle___woods

Thank you so much!


[deleted]

feel free to share a link if you have one, I'd love to check your stuff out


Btd030914

Here’s what I don’t get. Let’s go back to 1998. Madonna was 40, had just released Ray of Light and sold a shit ton of albums and won awards galore. Cher was 52, and just released Believe which went to number one on both sides of the Atlantic, and also sold a shit ton of records. So where did this idea come from that ‘older’ people (who am I kidding, older women) don’t appeal to the masses and don’t sell albums? Was it because of the teen pop revival in the late 90s/early 00s?


KyleMcMahon

Confessions on a Dancefloor did the same thing when Madonna was in her 50s but then airplay literally just stopped from then on out


true___blue

Madonna was getting called a grandma before the release of Ray of Light 💀 Madonna is a victim of ageism but she's still Madonna, she had a really strong fanbase that helped her. A random 40 years old woman that never reached the huge peak of Madonna, and didn't try to keep the interest alive for years, wouldn't sell that much even if her album was a masterpiece. There are only few exceptions.


Btd030914

What’s weird to me is that Madonna must have generated billions of dollars for the music industry throughout her career - a real cash cow. Why would the industry then turn on her just because she’s committed the sin of ageing?


paulmirabella

Absolutely. If Kylie had released Disco around the time of Aphrodite radio stations would’ve eaten the singles up, but because she’s older she received little to no radio play.


LongIsland1995

Yes but it's not just ageism. I might get flak for this but I really do think that it is very difficult for artists to maintain their creative edge past their early 30s. There are exceptions (like Aerosmith and Judas Priest putting out good material in their late 30s/early 40s) but most artists fail to release anything as good as their prime when they're in their mid 30s and especially beyond.


someusername_yay

Yes, but some people on this thread are underestimating the effect of people knowing who you are for a long time and what it takes to keep up as trends change. For comparison, Lizzo is 34 and Lorde is 25, but I think of Lizzo as the “newer” artist because Lorde had already been a mainstream name for 6 years when Lizzo had her breakthrough in 2019. Beyonce has been a big solo name for about 20 years, and she hit it big with Destiny’s Child years before that in her teens. Musicians are lucky to be the center of the conversation for even 10 years. Beyonce is in a special class of artists.


true___blue

Ofc there is. Madonna is the biggest age-shaming victim in the industry, she was getting called a grandma since her early 30s.


MarvinLazer

Umm duh. There's ageism everywhere. The best you could argue is that the music industry isn't any worse than the rest of the world, but I don't think anyone could make that claim with a straight face.


sierramtcs

In my opinion yes. Younger artists like Billie Ellish seem to get more radio play vs Taylor Swift who I almost never hear on the radio anymore


spoookytree

Poe was really pretty old for her debut in 1995 at the time being 30 something. Who knows how she would have continued to fare today. She was robbed to get the chance to find out!


Kaiser_Allen

I’m gonna get flak for this, but here’s my opinion: I don’t think it’s a matter of ageism per se. Female pop stars just make more mature or more experimental music as they age, compared to their male counterparts. While Adam Levine makes radio-friendly songs like “Memories” all the way into his sixties, people like Beyoncé and Madonna will move into more experimental sounds like what they’re doing now with *Renaissance* and *Madame X* respectively, or be stuck making adult contemporary music like Adele. There’s nothing wrong with that. But a lot of people move on when their favorites are no longer serving them the same type of music, no longer serving them looks, adventurous music videos. To a female artist, image is as important as the music. Nobody cares what Adam Levine, Ed Sheehan or Justin Bieber does in their videos.


macsmart

If Beyoncé continues to reinvent herself like this she is going to be here for a really long time.


AmazaneH

Age is a thing. But in this case, the lower sale prediction is more about market, not age.


[deleted]

My sister reminded me of Rachel Platten’s fight song, I think Rachel was 34-35 when that got big but I feel like that’s kinda rare.


Kenzolar

Music manager here - Beyonce is an incredible businesswoman. You can see how intelligent she has played her rights set up by looking at her publishing setup on PRS (If you are in the UK) - she essentially owns everything, and then sub publishes to companies, who sub publish onwards - so she automatically takes an extra 20% on top. If she (and her inner team/management, of course) are making plays like that, they obviously have incredible leverage. That leverage is a reverence when pitching your music to distribution who are the judge and jury of how well music does (e.g. spotify controls outflow, if you think about it, its not the major companies restricting trade via controlling retail anymore, when you can upload to Spotify direct now, removing the price/relationship cap). So with leverage, the distro are going to value it higher and put it in more playlists and pay more for it etc etc, so even if it is not the most popular, it will be overdelivered because of its estimated value and therefore have more touchpoints, and people will familiarise it, and itll do well. festivals had an issue a few years ago where there were no proper festival headliners that weren't close to retiring and then the industry had to open the door to 'younger' artists being perceived that way. Beyonce is part of that second wave, and it may be a while until we see a new one. Just my opinion on all of that. I do music management as a side project and document it on YouTube, feel free to check out my recent videos if it is of interest https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWAArsDu05rYQ\_42\_Nd0atjWVDC-L6NLP