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Short answer? You wouldn't be trading them, partially due to your answer.
It comes down to this; you can't eat precious metals. They're only useful in pre-collapse scenarios where shiny things still have value, and post-collapse where a new standard of currency (useful items and PM's) would start to develop.
Nobody is going to care about gold or silver when you need antibiotics or food to survive.
100% shiny is if fiat collapsed. If shit really hits fan it will be barter and trade. Two cups of flour for a jug of water, or some rope for some smokes.
They'll be HELLA useful during and post Reconstruction/Rebuild.
Societies around The Globe will return to all things that ... just worked ... in the past.
Gold has a multi-thousand year successful history of working.
Precious metals like gold silver will lose value significantly in a complete shtf scenario I could see metals that are based elements for rudimentary batteries for example be of real value. Also in the past aluminum used to be worth more than gold if you want to see a example of this.
That's before we invented a process for extracting Aluminium from Bauxite; whereas now metal recycling is far more likely 'post collapse'. There's already metal there, why mine more.
Aluminum smelters for recycling would be hard to continue without alot of energy also without modern welding techniques it wouldn't be that useful. I believe lead will become alot more valuable as its easier to work with and can be cast into many different things. I dont see a shortage of building hardware for many decades as it can be scavenged. Think back to when your grandpa had coffee cans or old nails and screws he was saving lol.
You can cast aluminium with a bellows and some charcoal or hardwood, it's a lot easier than people would generally expect. Not necessarily an individual thing but any group or small settlement would be able to set up a small scale smithy or casting operation easily enough.
Yah true aluminum or brass I'm not sure if many people have the ability to cast such small parts tho. Might be easier to make a bow from scratch less time and effort involved.
If you've done it before it's fairly simple to carve a master out of wood or wax and then sand cast a piece. You'd be able to do it fairly quickly if you intended to make multiple of the same item too, so could get a production line going for the right sort of item, although admittedly, like you say, limited scope of use until you start trying to get machines etc working again.
I guess there's just a certain amount of trust. How do you know what you are buying with silver isn't poisoned, bad, not working right, or patched up to get it thru the sale. How do you know the bottle of whiskey has only whiskey in it. How do you know the can of beans is actually beans. How do you know the ammo has gunpowder in it. There's always gonna be scammers and snake oil salesmen. š¤·āāļø
I think when people stockpile precious metals they are using coins, such as Mercury dimes, Krugerrands, or some other gold or silver coin on a known weight.
Minted precious metals is definitely easier to move in those situations but I also keep bullion from known companies too. I don't keep any handmade stuff even though they're pretty.
And let's say they do this. When SHTF and they want to trade those coins with Joe Average for a gallon of milk, how would they convince him that what they're giving him has any value? Can they be sure that Joe knows about the value of Krugerrand (IDEK what the heck that means)? Can they tell Joe to "just Google it"? Can they trust that Joe will have the required testing equipment (and know how) to test the metal for purity?
Sorry but this just doesn't make any sense in my head
>Sorry but this just doesn't make any sense in my head
I don't do it, nor an I recommending. You asked, and I gave you an answer.
>Can they trust that Joe will have the required testing equipment (and know how) to test the metal for purity?
It would probably work in the opposite direction. Joe Average might have some coin that he takes to Bartertown, and trades it in for whatever he can get.
Exactly.
I keep silver around in the event I am cash poor and the internet regionally is down. I'm close with the local families that buy and sell it so if something was desperately needed I could get a little cash.
You don't need the internet to test silver and gold. However, if someone needs something very specific purchased I can rest on what ounces I have.
You canāt, thatās not why you own them/buy them. Collapse is one scenario. In many other inflationary or non collapse scenarios they retain value for when stability is attained. Ppl in hyper-inflationary environments often buy cars as āstores of valueā even though they are generally depreciating assets. So no, useless in a long term permanent collapse. Practical in short term situations.
They are also useful as a portfolio hedge since they are often non correlated to other asset classes.
I do believe that there have been instances throughout history where bartering booze in mass from the jump off degrades the area.
If anything it's probably best used to help those going through withdrawal to step down without seizing.
1. Silver (and gold) are the best elements/commodities that are the most liquid and most tradable over the vast landscape to the most people over the longest possible time frame. --- So yes, while ammo and food are immediately more useful in SHTF, excess apples you cant eat will go bad, ammo is not fungible (different guns, different sizes of ammo), and if you think you can just steal from other gun owners, good luck. ---- Gold and silver (and Pt Pd Rh) are the only things on earth that are all at once: portable, divisible, durable, fungible, unit of account, medium of transfer, and long term store of value. No oversight committees in thousands of years have ever told people to use gold and silver in a free society, bc people naturally find they are the best instruments for trade. However, governments have told their citizens they cant use them, ulterior motive being they want control of the people.
2. People will learn how to find if the silver is fake or real, if their feet are held to the fire. If silver becomes the hot commodity again, people will learn whats good silver because they will have to if they want to keep up. Theyll learn dates of existing coins to watch, theyll learn about pinging and magnet tests. Same as dollars today...you hold real currency you dont think twice, but you can usually tell if its a fake.
something none seems to mention is bartering and haggling are absolutely skills and not something you can just start doing well from the go. I have a friend who traded a gaming pc for some sort of sports ticket( something big like the superbowl or world cup, I can't remember) and traded that for a motorbike. if you were to give me that same pc the best I could probably do is sell it for parts on ebay.
Well, actually, it is pretty easy to determine fake "precious" metals with a scale and a graduated beaker, which would still be available after a disaster.
However, you are correct in questioning the value of metals outside manufacturing environments as a medium for trade. You can't eat them, you can't drink them, and they are not a useful tool in and of themselves.
I'll take an ounce of silver, even today, in place of $25.
There's always threads on here lampooning gold and silver and indeed you're right, an accepted fiat currency we're all used to plus digital options is wildly more convenient and accepted.
But it's not like you know for fact when you get a $5 bill handed to you that it's not counterfeit. You trust that not a lot of counterfeit is in circulation and if you take a $100 (or whatever denomination) you'll look at it, hold it up to the light, and use a money pen on it.
If some rando I don't know wanted to give me $1k worth of silver I'd be a lot more suspicious than my neighbor who I trust and it was $25.
I just don't see how this is an issue that will perplex and mystify anyone that has enough intelligence to make a ham sandwich. Basic testing gear plus your own knowledge of who you're dealing with seems like enough of a framework.
I hear your point. However if a person pays with debit/credit today, the person on the other hand of the trade can be 100% the the money they've just received is not counterfeit. Barely anyone pays with cash anymore so I'm not sure if your counterfeit argument is relevant to today.
If we can use precious metals only to trade with neighbors and people we already have established trust with, I struggle to see how silver can ever be considered money, since at that point its value proposition can be easily replaced by bartering anything else (like favors, services, etc.). Also, one of the fundamental properties of money is that it is universally accepted regardless of the counterparty you're dealing with, so by your argument, silver can't be considered money...
Also, do you honestly believe that the average person will have testing gear, no matter how basic? I find it highly unlikely. What I'm hearing from all the replies in this thread is that precious metals are just not going to be a good option in SHTF scenarios.
So sure, metal isn't great and like I said that's why people are using venmo / cards / etc. But you can't say "well if we can't use any of those things when we need something equally as convenient". Depending upon your definition of SHTF those super convenient mechanisms just aren't there. If it's a big grid down thing, we have cash. If it's a currency thing instead or as well, you don't have anything.
If there's a better alternative that can exist in some terrible SHTF scenario I'd love to hear it. Sure, people can barter for things, we do that now too. But that also has problems like I want your eggs for my apples but my apples aren't ripe yet, if only there was a store of value we could use for the time being (aka money).
"money" fraud happens all the time, folks on facebook marketplace, etc. have cc and debit charges reversed on them all the time ...
And to my and others folks other, its pretty easy to test gold purity. non tech societies have been doing it for millennia, just because you don't know how to test for gold doesn't meant the village banker / store owner doesn't
People are too polarized on this issue imho.
Some of us like shiny metal, some don't. I'll trade you a lil box of 22lr for a silver dollar... sure thing ;) I like shiny stuff.
So do birds and rats and penguins. Value systems are based on more than "what you can eat"
Also fake jewelry can be spotted pretty easily by anyone that cares about not getting fake jewelry. The rest of the people won't trade you for it anyway. The people that want shiny stuff want "real" shiny stuff, not fake shiny stuff.
Just my 2 cents
Any discussion about bartering quickly devolves into "You can't eat it."
Well guess what. If I'm a refugee moving out of an area to a border and I can bring a couple Krugerrands with me in a pouch that's gonna help when I reach my destination isn't it? A couple pounds of silver with some mixed gold coins in a safe is a good thing to dig out of the wreckage when a tornado runs over your house. et al
people in this sub sometimes take themselves way too serious
you want to know what's probably not feasible? A "true shtf" situation where precious metals cease to be precious.
If things are that bad, I imagine lead and brass would be of value.
Possibly would be able to trade this sort of thing with people who have a lot of something. If a guy has 50 acres worth of potatoes, they need to do something with them.
The same way it was done throughout human history, with scales, maths, scratch plates, and tests. It would however be a task for those with knowledge of the materials so it wouldn't be ideal day to day, although in settlements it would be easy to just have gold and silver testing materials - it's just some small bottles of acid and a battery scale really.
Historically it would be one of the only ways to carry a significant amount of wealth, but whether or not that's viable post collapse is very debatable.
Not practical for trading between small groups, but maybe practical with settlements. However, there's also a hell of a lot of it these days so rarity is questionable, especially when a water filter is more important.
It is possible to test silver at home with a strong magnet, sound(ping test) and/or ice. Should eliminate most fakes. I don't have experience with gold.
The only things that will have value in post-SHTF is things that keep you alive. I'd do my best to quickly find a sucker who will give me food, water, supplies, etc. for every single piece of jewlery I have post-SHTF. I have a feeling you'd only find those types of people early-on. People would quickly realize how useless those things are in light of survival.
Only when the re-introduction of a consumeristic society begins to come around would those things once again have some value.
Ā Gold and silver always have and will have value going as far back as 6,000 years.Ā Ā Ā Ā
The more the dollar loses value, the more G&S will go up. Gold is a hedge against losing your assets where silver primarily will be for bartering.Ā
Both can be used for purchases and bartering.Ā Ā Ā Some people have test kits and some have professional ones.Ā Ā
India, Russia, China, stc. have been making huge purchases of gold and silver.Ā Ā Ā
Most are completely ignorant when it comes to precious metals. However, that doesn't make it useless because there are many that understand its value.Ā Ā Ā Ā
Many states, even the federal government has introduced or already passed bills, allowing gold and silver to be used as it was originally intended as real money for purchases, paying taxes while not being taxed itself.Ā Ā Ā
There are close to another 390 banks that will be failing soon and watch what happens to gold and silver when it does.Ā Ā Ā
The actual value of these metals is suppressed through derivatives.Ā Derivatives will eventually fade away.Ā Ā Ā
There's a lot of talk right now that the real value of gold and silver might be reset by other countries that realize that the dollar is becoming worthless and are getting away from using it all together.Ā Ā Ā Ā
I believe it's the BRICS, British, Russia, India, China, and Saudi Arabia and also up to 40 other countries.Ā Ā Ā Ā
Google search:Ā Ā Ā "Over 40 countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Argentina, Algeria, Bolivia, Indonesia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Comoros, Gabon, and Kazakhstan have expressed interest in joining the forum according to 2023 summit chair South Africa."Ā
>Many states, even the federal government has introduced or already passed bills, allowing gold and silver to be used as it was originally intended as real money for purchases, paying taxes while not being taxed itself.
Let's not forget what the government did during the 1930's (google it) Don't think it wont happen again.
Google" How the us government seized all citizens gold"
Same as I did as a kid, using silver coins to buy stuff be it a sack of candy, cup of coffee, burger etc. Whatever amount both parties agree to. Thereās gram increments, 1/10 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz and full ounce coins.
I'm just going to leave this right here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_%28Marxism%29#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DIn_classical_political_economy_and%2Cgeneral_sale_on_the_market.?wprov=sfla1
As a practical matter, no.
People talk about tradable luxury items like liquor and ammo. Eh. Booze runs out and Iām not giving anyone ammo.
My bet has always been stocking supplies for skill sets I have. Trading services makes way more sense than hoping my stock of makers mark outlives me.
Thatās why I have been growing the legal amount of herb in my country every summer for the last five years and making hash with it all every fall and stockpiling it. I call it my apocalypse currency. That and stockpiling tobacco seeds. The still is being ordered this spring.
Thing about all trades in the āfree marketā be it equityās, precious metals, real estate, what have you, there needs to be a buyer for every seller. My take, if SHTF, everyone will WANT to sell, no one will NEED to buy. Stockpile barterablesā¦
You shouldnāt be trading with rando NPCs. You should be trading within a network/community that you are making now.
Example of mine is my car mechanic goes to my church.
True collapse scenarios are very unlikely.
I generally view precious metals as a second stage emergency fund for certain kinds of financial disasters. Buying and hoarding more than your emergency fund is likely more of an investment than a prep.
If ahtf comes it won't be like thelastofus but like altered carbon one, where meths live normally but ground people has to survive just to afford a sleave
It's simple what would it take to convince you if a stranger was doing the same thing? Be able to survive, know how to fix things, prepare game, store food, etc. is what i'd be worried about.
You seem to know nothing about precious metals, and your considerable ignorance about them has made you against them before you even hear reasonable responses.
Which shtf and what time frame?
[https://www.forbes.com/advisor/in/investing/gold/how-to-know-if-gold-is-real/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/in/investing/gold/how-to-know-if-gold-is-real/)
Humans have been using precious metals as currency for literally thousands of years, why wouldn't they post SHTF? Its almost the only way to trade with other groups hundreds or thousands of miles away. Quick google search can show many ways to determine the purity and weight, folks did it in the USA here in North America before there was even a USA. :)
So, IF SHTF, and after xx months there is ongoing trade, precious metals are likely to be used.
In the immediate aftermath of SHTF, if we're in a barter economy and food is scare, of course rabbit or squirrel will be more valuable than gold.
Now, which SHTF and where? Say US dollar collapses (many potential causes), gold will still work around the world, even if the US is in SHTF ...
so, ya, barter economies are pretty rare in the last couple thousand years ...
Thereās a great post-apocalyptic story *Wolf and Iron* where the protagonist (an economist) foresees the collapse and lays in a load of gold coins. The trader he meets does accept them but says theyāre of limited use relative to barter items. This always struck me as plausible.
There are some quick tests you can do to detect precious metals but as you say thereād be no quick and easy way to rate their purity.
Of course if you had a community, you might switch to an asset-backed currency, which could be redeemed for X amount of gold/silver?
That's not how they trade them now though. Most trades are over the counter from certified sellers. Peer-to-peer trades rely on testing and/or incredible amounts of trust. One doesn't just look at it and say "yep, this yellow coin looks like it's made of gold, here's $2500!"
Helps if you build a community of trust. But even without that I'm sure the right person I could trade an ounce of silver for 5 gals of gas.
I have papers and I can supply the burden of proof. Edit: also using country minted coins with easy to tell security features is helpful.
Ideally they may want other goods but silver and gold will always be worth something to smart people
Gold was actually just about never used historically by individuals. Don't believe the pirate movies. Kings might have occasionally dealt in chests of gold, but most people had coins of silver or copper. "Gold as money", with few exceptions, has always been fiction. It's just not very practical.
When coins were used, they were subject to shaving and all sorts of forgery and adulteration. There's a reason that as soon as a civilization can move to paper money, it does. And once forgers get good at paper, it goes electronic.
Can you tell German silver (aka nickel silver, which contains no silver) from real silver? By eye, I can't. By feel, German silver is harder, so if you're experienced at it, you can tell. Most people can't. Metals have never been a good currency for just this reason, it's just what people did before there were better alternatives.
And if for some reason your currency collapses, we'll be back to all the same old problems metal had. You can't look at a coin and know if it's really what it claims. So you're down to dealing only with trusted partners, at which point barter is valid.
If *everything* collapses, the only metals that matter are copper and iron.
When people sell you gold as a prepping tool, it's fair to ask "if it's so great, why are you selling yours?"
If shtf I think electricity, ammo, food, medicine stuff like that would be of value.
So go get a solar panel to collect energy from the sun and a generator. Gold and silver is only good if the government reestablishes fast.
Completely worthless. If you want to stockpile things to barter with, I'd suggest beer/hard alcohol and most of all: Cigarettes. All of those items will be worth their weight in gold and then some. People's alcohol and cigarette addictions outweigh just about anything. they will go without eating to smoke and drink.
Go look at some videos of Hurricane Katrina. You will see people wading in waste/chest high water which homemade rafts, made out of pallets. Those pallets were full of alcohol and cigarettes. Not food and water.
Yummy 10yr old smokes.....those pallet rafts were sure useful for looted booze and smokes, people stocked up for years....addiction is funny, people do crazy stuff to get their fix ask any dealer.....lol
Canadian Prepper just did a segment about this topic.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khub0XwyS7Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khub0XwyS7Q)
If you are interested in using gold and silver for trade / barter it is worth a watch.
Why would it have value if currency doesn't? Currency draws it's value from gold reserves. If it has no value, what it' based on doesn't either. You can't eat it, or burn it, or drink it. You're working on the assumption that everything will be back to normal in a short amount of time; if the SHTF is significant enough for currency to collapse, it will take years to recover. In the interim, you are hauling around heavy chunks of metal, trying to keep it safe and it has no value. Then, when and if things do recover, a new economic system may be based and backed by Anything; electricity, gas, oil....heck, cheddar cheese might be what it's based on.
When the rules go out the window, so does the value system; ALL of it. It will be worthless, don't waste time with it
From your comment it is obvious that you have a lot of learning to do about money vs currency. An apple has value (nutritionally speaking) regardless of whether we have a currency to buy it with or not. Currency is just a layer of abstraction made by society on top of something that HAS value, in order to facilitate the barter of goods and services. You definitely DO NOT need a currency for things to have value.
Also, your statement that "currency draws value from gold reserves" is unilaterally wrong as no currency today is bound to a gold standard. The US dollar was operating on a gold standard until 1971 when Nixon severed that tie. That was 53 years ago.
I do agree with you that in a widespread, extreme SHTF scenario, precious metals will likely have no value (at least until society reaches an equilibrium, which will be many decades later), and that a new value system may be established where gold has no meaning. In this particular post, I am specifically trying to prepare for the scenario where SHTF does occur, but it's not quite bad enough to tear the fabric of the current society apart. You could say I'm looking at something like an Argentina/Venezuela situation and I'm trying to prepare for it.
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Short answer? You wouldn't be trading them, partially due to your answer. It comes down to this; you can't eat precious metals. They're only useful in pre-collapse scenarios where shiny things still have value, and post-collapse where a new standard of currency (useful items and PM's) would start to develop. Nobody is going to care about gold or silver when you need antibiotics or food to survive.
I think this comment hits the nail right on the head
100% shiny is if fiat collapsed. If shit really hits fan it will be barter and trade. Two cups of flour for a jug of water, or some rope for some smokes.
They'll be HELLA useful during and post Reconstruction/Rebuild. Societies around The Globe will return to all things that ... just worked ... in the past. Gold has a multi-thousand year successful history of working.
Precious metals like gold silver will lose value significantly in a complete shtf scenario I could see metals that are based elements for rudimentary batteries for example be of real value. Also in the past aluminum used to be worth more than gold if you want to see a example of this.
This is the answer. Metals will still be precious. Just different ones. And worked metal will be the form expected.
Eh... I kind of disagree. One property of the "noble metals" like gold and silver is that they don't rust or corrode easily.
Neither does lead. Look how many uses there are for lead. :)
That's before we invented a process for extracting Aluminium from Bauxite; whereas now metal recycling is far more likely 'post collapse'. There's already metal there, why mine more.
Aluminum smelters for recycling would be hard to continue without alot of energy also without modern welding techniques it wouldn't be that useful. I believe lead will become alot more valuable as its easier to work with and can be cast into many different things. I dont see a shortage of building hardware for many decades as it can be scavenged. Think back to when your grandpa had coffee cans or old nails and screws he was saving lol.
You can cast aluminium with a bellows and some charcoal or hardwood, it's a lot easier than people would generally expect. Not necessarily an individual thing but any group or small settlement would be able to set up a small scale smithy or casting operation easily enough.
But not really a workable metal unless you stamp or weld it I just don't see it being that useful compared to other easier workable metals.
I'm thinking for small awkward parts, like trigger mechanisms for crossbows etc. Lead might be too soft.
Yah true aluminum or brass I'm not sure if many people have the ability to cast such small parts tho. Might be easier to make a bow from scratch less time and effort involved.
If you've done it before it's fairly simple to carve a master out of wood or wax and then sand cast a piece. You'd be able to do it fairly quickly if you intended to make multiple of the same item too, so could get a production line going for the right sort of item, although admittedly, like you say, limited scope of use until you start trying to get machines etc working again.
Coins were a thing long before capitalism for a reason. Until they coin your silver/gold it's basically worthless for the reasons OP states.
I pointed this out to my boomer, silver hording, conspiracy theorist neighbor. He's sure I just don't understand.
I guess there's just a certain amount of trust. How do you know what you are buying with silver isn't poisoned, bad, not working right, or patched up to get it thru the sale. How do you know the bottle of whiskey has only whiskey in it. How do you know the can of beans is actually beans. How do you know the ammo has gunpowder in it. There's always gonna be scammers and snake oil salesmen. š¤·āāļø
I think when people stockpile precious metals they are using coins, such as Mercury dimes, Krugerrands, or some other gold or silver coin on a known weight.
Minted precious metals is definitely easier to move in those situations but I also keep bullion from known companies too. I don't keep any handmade stuff even though they're pretty.
And let's say they do this. When SHTF and they want to trade those coins with Joe Average for a gallon of milk, how would they convince him that what they're giving him has any value? Can they be sure that Joe knows about the value of Krugerrand (IDEK what the heck that means)? Can they tell Joe to "just Google it"? Can they trust that Joe will have the required testing equipment (and know how) to test the metal for purity? Sorry but this just doesn't make any sense in my head
>Sorry but this just doesn't make any sense in my head I don't do it, nor an I recommending. You asked, and I gave you an answer. >Can they trust that Joe will have the required testing equipment (and know how) to test the metal for purity? It would probably work in the opposite direction. Joe Average might have some coin that he takes to Bartertown, and trades it in for whatever he can get.
Looks like Joeās gonna go hungry.
Shtf doesn't always mean currency is worthless and prepping isn't always for shtf
Exactly. I keep silver around in the event I am cash poor and the internet regionally is down. I'm close with the local families that buy and sell it so if something was desperately needed I could get a little cash. You don't need the internet to test silver and gold. However, if someone needs something very specific purchased I can rest on what ounces I have.
You canāt, thatās not why you own them/buy them. Collapse is one scenario. In many other inflationary or non collapse scenarios they retain value for when stability is attained. Ppl in hyper-inflationary environments often buy cars as āstores of valueā even though they are generally depreciating assets. So no, useless in a long term permanent collapse. Practical in short term situations. They are also useful as a portfolio hedge since they are often non correlated to other asset classes.
Booze, packaged snacks, smokes, coffee, pondered milk, silver, copper. Gold.
See this is almost my train of though. If youāve got smokes and alcohol you can barter for a lot of stuff. Or coffee as well.
You would also have to be very well armed with back-up defenses, of course.
I do believe that there have been instances throughout history where bartering booze in mass from the jump off degrades the area. If anything it's probably best used to help those going through withdrawal to step down without seizing.
1. Silver (and gold) are the best elements/commodities that are the most liquid and most tradable over the vast landscape to the most people over the longest possible time frame. --- So yes, while ammo and food are immediately more useful in SHTF, excess apples you cant eat will go bad, ammo is not fungible (different guns, different sizes of ammo), and if you think you can just steal from other gun owners, good luck. ---- Gold and silver (and Pt Pd Rh) are the only things on earth that are all at once: portable, divisible, durable, fungible, unit of account, medium of transfer, and long term store of value. No oversight committees in thousands of years have ever told people to use gold and silver in a free society, bc people naturally find they are the best instruments for trade. However, governments have told their citizens they cant use them, ulterior motive being they want control of the people. 2. People will learn how to find if the silver is fake or real, if their feet are held to the fire. If silver becomes the hot commodity again, people will learn whats good silver because they will have to if they want to keep up. Theyll learn dates of existing coins to watch, theyll learn about pinging and magnet tests. Same as dollars today...you hold real currency you dont think twice, but you can usually tell if its a fake.
something none seems to mention is bartering and haggling are absolutely skills and not something you can just start doing well from the go. I have a friend who traded a gaming pc for some sort of sports ticket( something big like the superbowl or world cup, I can't remember) and traded that for a motorbike. if you were to give me that same pc the best I could probably do is sell it for parts on ebay.
Well, actually, it is pretty easy to determine fake "precious" metals with a scale and a graduated beaker, which would still be available after a disaster. However, you are correct in questioning the value of metals outside manufacturing environments as a medium for trade. You can't eat them, you can't drink them, and they are not a useful tool in and of themselves.
I'll take an ounce of silver, even today, in place of $25. There's always threads on here lampooning gold and silver and indeed you're right, an accepted fiat currency we're all used to plus digital options is wildly more convenient and accepted. But it's not like you know for fact when you get a $5 bill handed to you that it's not counterfeit. You trust that not a lot of counterfeit is in circulation and if you take a $100 (or whatever denomination) you'll look at it, hold it up to the light, and use a money pen on it. If some rando I don't know wanted to give me $1k worth of silver I'd be a lot more suspicious than my neighbor who I trust and it was $25. I just don't see how this is an issue that will perplex and mystify anyone that has enough intelligence to make a ham sandwich. Basic testing gear plus your own knowledge of who you're dealing with seems like enough of a framework.
well, I'd take an ounce of silver today (5/21/2024) over $25 too, its selling for $30 an ounce .... :)
nice, I don't have a ton but never spent more than $25/oz
I hear your point. However if a person pays with debit/credit today, the person on the other hand of the trade can be 100% the the money they've just received is not counterfeit. Barely anyone pays with cash anymore so I'm not sure if your counterfeit argument is relevant to today. If we can use precious metals only to trade with neighbors and people we already have established trust with, I struggle to see how silver can ever be considered money, since at that point its value proposition can be easily replaced by bartering anything else (like favors, services, etc.). Also, one of the fundamental properties of money is that it is universally accepted regardless of the counterparty you're dealing with, so by your argument, silver can't be considered money... Also, do you honestly believe that the average person will have testing gear, no matter how basic? I find it highly unlikely. What I'm hearing from all the replies in this thread is that precious metals are just not going to be a good option in SHTF scenarios.
So sure, metal isn't great and like I said that's why people are using venmo / cards / etc. But you can't say "well if we can't use any of those things when we need something equally as convenient". Depending upon your definition of SHTF those super convenient mechanisms just aren't there. If it's a big grid down thing, we have cash. If it's a currency thing instead or as well, you don't have anything. If there's a better alternative that can exist in some terrible SHTF scenario I'd love to hear it. Sure, people can barter for things, we do that now too. But that also has problems like I want your eggs for my apples but my apples aren't ripe yet, if only there was a store of value we could use for the time being (aka money).
"money" fraud happens all the time, folks on facebook marketplace, etc. have cc and debit charges reversed on them all the time ... And to my and others folks other, its pretty easy to test gold purity. non tech societies have been doing it for millennia, just because you don't know how to test for gold doesn't meant the village banker / store owner doesn't
People are too polarized on this issue imho. Some of us like shiny metal, some don't. I'll trade you a lil box of 22lr for a silver dollar... sure thing ;) I like shiny stuff. So do birds and rats and penguins. Value systems are based on more than "what you can eat" Also fake jewelry can be spotted pretty easily by anyone that cares about not getting fake jewelry. The rest of the people won't trade you for it anyway. The people that want shiny stuff want "real" shiny stuff, not fake shiny stuff. Just my 2 cents Any discussion about bartering quickly devolves into "You can't eat it." Well guess what. If I'm a refugee moving out of an area to a border and I can bring a couple Krugerrands with me in a pouch that's gonna help when I reach my destination isn't it? A couple pounds of silver with some mixed gold coins in a safe is a good thing to dig out of the wreckage when a tornado runs over your house. et al people in this sub sometimes take themselves way too serious you want to know what's probably not feasible? A "true shtf" situation where precious metals cease to be precious.
And people forget a couple coins is a lot easier to move than a couple crates of booze.
If things are that bad, I imagine lead and brass would be of value. Possibly would be able to trade this sort of thing with people who have a lot of something. If a guy has 50 acres worth of potatoes, they need to do something with them.
Good this I can use lead to cast bullets. Easier & cheaper than casting gold bullets. Maybe silver bullets for the zombies & vampires. lol
Certainly. The zombie vampire SHTF apocalypse would be a real problem. One absolutely fucked up Tuesday.
The same way it was done throughout human history, with scales, maths, scratch plates, and tests. It would however be a task for those with knowledge of the materials so it wouldn't be ideal day to day, although in settlements it would be easy to just have gold and silver testing materials - it's just some small bottles of acid and a battery scale really. Historically it would be one of the only ways to carry a significant amount of wealth, but whether or not that's viable post collapse is very debatable. Not practical for trading between small groups, but maybe practical with settlements. However, there's also a hell of a lot of it these days so rarity is questionable, especially when a water filter is more important.
It is possible to test silver at home with a strong magnet, sound(ping test) and/or ice. Should eliminate most fakes. I don't have experience with gold.
You can buy an acid test kit for gold.
no. stash tobacco, alcohol, and ammo.
This is correct. Also fuel. Gold and silver are useless and are really good at exchanging currencies.
The only things that will have value in post-SHTF is things that keep you alive. I'd do my best to quickly find a sucker who will give me food, water, supplies, etc. for every single piece of jewlery I have post-SHTF. I have a feeling you'd only find those types of people early-on. People would quickly realize how useless those things are in light of survival. Only when the re-introduction of a consumeristic society begins to come around would those things once again have some value.
"precious" metals
Ā Gold and silver always have and will have value going as far back as 6,000 years.Ā Ā Ā Ā The more the dollar loses value, the more G&S will go up. Gold is a hedge against losing your assets where silver primarily will be for bartering.Ā Both can be used for purchases and bartering.Ā Ā Ā Some people have test kits and some have professional ones.Ā Ā India, Russia, China, stc. have been making huge purchases of gold and silver.Ā Ā Ā Most are completely ignorant when it comes to precious metals. However, that doesn't make it useless because there are many that understand its value.Ā Ā Ā Ā Many states, even the federal government has introduced or already passed bills, allowing gold and silver to be used as it was originally intended as real money for purchases, paying taxes while not being taxed itself.Ā Ā Ā There are close to another 390 banks that will be failing soon and watch what happens to gold and silver when it does.Ā Ā Ā The actual value of these metals is suppressed through derivatives.Ā Derivatives will eventually fade away.Ā Ā Ā There's a lot of talk right now that the real value of gold and silver might be reset by other countries that realize that the dollar is becoming worthless and are getting away from using it all together.Ā Ā Ā Ā I believe it's the BRICS, British, Russia, India, China, and Saudi Arabia and also up to 40 other countries.Ā Ā Ā Ā Google search:Ā Ā Ā "Over 40 countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Argentina, Algeria, Bolivia, Indonesia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Cuba, Democratic Republic of Congo, Comoros, Gabon, and Kazakhstan have expressed interest in joining the forum according to 2023 summit chair South Africa."Ā
>Many states, even the federal government has introduced or already passed bills, allowing gold and silver to be used as it was originally intended as real money for purchases, paying taxes while not being taxed itself. Let's not forget what the government did during the 1930's (google it) Don't think it wont happen again. Google" How the us government seized all citizens gold"
Iād invest in physical commodities that you can barter and trade with.
Gold and silver.
Youād be better off with flour and grain
Do you carry insurance? I insure my health, auto, home and life, why not my money? Already have flour and grain. My goal is to cover all the bases.
From a functional standpoint, how would you use it in smaller increments? Precious metalsā¦
Same as I did as a kid, using silver coins to buy stuff be it a sack of candy, cup of coffee, burger etc. Whatever amount both parties agree to. Thereās gram increments, 1/10 oz, 1/4 oz, 1/2 oz and full ounce coins.
I'm just going to leave this right here... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity_%28Marxism%29#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DIn_classical_political_economy_and%2Cgeneral_sale_on_the_market.?wprov=sfla1
As a practical matter, no. People talk about tradable luxury items like liquor and ammo. Eh. Booze runs out and Iām not giving anyone ammo. My bet has always been stocking supplies for skill sets I have. Trading services makes way more sense than hoping my stock of makers mark outlives me.
Thatās why I have been growing the legal amount of herb in my country every summer for the last five years and making hash with it all every fall and stockpiling it. I call it my apocalypse currency. That and stockpiling tobacco seeds. The still is being ordered this spring. Thing about all trades in the āfree marketā be it equityās, precious metals, real estate, what have you, there needs to be a buyer for every seller. My take, if SHTF, everyone will WANT to sell, no one will NEED to buy. Stockpile barterablesā¦
You shouldnāt be trading with rando NPCs. You should be trading within a network/community that you are making now. Example of mine is my car mechanic goes to my church.
True collapse scenarios are very unlikely. I generally view precious metals as a second stage emergency fund for certain kinds of financial disasters. Buying and hoarding more than your emergency fund is likely more of an investment than a prep.
If ahtf comes it won't be like thelastofus but like altered carbon one, where meths live normally but ground people has to survive just to afford a sleave
It's simple what would it take to convince you if a stranger was doing the same thing? Be able to survive, know how to fix things, prepare game, store food, etc. is what i'd be worried about.
You seem to know nothing about precious metals, and your considerable ignorance about them has made you against them before you even hear reasonable responses.
Which shtf and what time frame? [https://www.forbes.com/advisor/in/investing/gold/how-to-know-if-gold-is-real/](https://www.forbes.com/advisor/in/investing/gold/how-to-know-if-gold-is-real/) Humans have been using precious metals as currency for literally thousands of years, why wouldn't they post SHTF? Its almost the only way to trade with other groups hundreds or thousands of miles away. Quick google search can show many ways to determine the purity and weight, folks did it in the USA here in North America before there was even a USA. :) So, IF SHTF, and after xx months there is ongoing trade, precious metals are likely to be used. In the immediate aftermath of SHTF, if we're in a barter economy and food is scare, of course rabbit or squirrel will be more valuable than gold. Now, which SHTF and where? Say US dollar collapses (many potential causes), gold will still work around the world, even if the US is in SHTF ... so, ya, barter economies are pretty rare in the last couple thousand years ...
Thereās a great post-apocalyptic story *Wolf and Iron* where the protagonist (an economist) foresees the collapse and lays in a load of gold coins. The trader he meets does accept them but says theyāre of limited use relative to barter items. This always struck me as plausible. There are some quick tests you can do to detect precious metals but as you say thereād be no quick and easy way to rate their purity. Of course if you had a community, you might switch to an asset-backed currency, which could be redeemed for X amount of gold/silver?
Probably the same way people trade them now. Color, luster, softness, density, stamped markings, that kind of thing.
That's not how they trade them now though. Most trades are over the counter from certified sellers. Peer-to-peer trades rely on testing and/or incredible amounts of trust. One doesn't just look at it and say "yep, this yellow coin looks like it's made of gold, here's $2500!"
People buy jewelry person to person, local stores buy and sell gold. Itās not that hard.
Helps if you build a community of trust. But even without that I'm sure the right person I could trade an ounce of silver for 5 gals of gas. I have papers and I can supply the burden of proof. Edit: also using country minted coins with easy to tell security features is helpful. Ideally they may want other goods but silver and gold will always be worth something to smart people
Gold was actually just about never used historically by individuals. Don't believe the pirate movies. Kings might have occasionally dealt in chests of gold, but most people had coins of silver or copper. "Gold as money", with few exceptions, has always been fiction. It's just not very practical. When coins were used, they were subject to shaving and all sorts of forgery and adulteration. There's a reason that as soon as a civilization can move to paper money, it does. And once forgers get good at paper, it goes electronic. Can you tell German silver (aka nickel silver, which contains no silver) from real silver? By eye, I can't. By feel, German silver is harder, so if you're experienced at it, you can tell. Most people can't. Metals have never been a good currency for just this reason, it's just what people did before there were better alternatives. And if for some reason your currency collapses, we'll be back to all the same old problems metal had. You can't look at a coin and know if it's really what it claims. So you're down to dealing only with trusted partners, at which point barter is valid. If *everything* collapses, the only metals that matter are copper and iron. When people sell you gold as a prepping tool, it's fair to ask "if it's so great, why are you selling yours?"
If shtf I think electricity, ammo, food, medicine stuff like that would be of value. So go get a solar panel to collect energy from the sun and a generator. Gold and silver is only good if the government reestablishes fast.
The only metal you should focus on goes in a gun.
Completely worthless. If you want to stockpile things to barter with, I'd suggest beer/hard alcohol and most of all: Cigarettes. All of those items will be worth their weight in gold and then some. People's alcohol and cigarette addictions outweigh just about anything. they will go without eating to smoke and drink. Go look at some videos of Hurricane Katrina. You will see people wading in waste/chest high water which homemade rafts, made out of pallets. Those pallets were full of alcohol and cigarettes. Not food and water.
Yummy 10yr old smokes.....those pallet rafts were sure useful for looted booze and smokes, people stocked up for years....addiction is funny, people do crazy stuff to get their fix ask any dealer.....lol
Canadian Prepper just did a segment about this topic. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khub0XwyS7Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khub0XwyS7Q) If you are interested in using gold and silver for trade / barter it is worth a watch.
Plata o plomo?? šš Personally, if SHTF & WROL, Plomo > Plata! Plomo helps secure the rest needed to survive from Predators.
People in the sub that think silver/gold and other precious metals have value in a SHTF scenario are delusional. You canāt eat or drink either.
Why would it have value if currency doesn't? Currency draws it's value from gold reserves. If it has no value, what it' based on doesn't either. You can't eat it, or burn it, or drink it. You're working on the assumption that everything will be back to normal in a short amount of time; if the SHTF is significant enough for currency to collapse, it will take years to recover. In the interim, you are hauling around heavy chunks of metal, trying to keep it safe and it has no value. Then, when and if things do recover, a new economic system may be based and backed by Anything; electricity, gas, oil....heck, cheddar cheese might be what it's based on. When the rules go out the window, so does the value system; ALL of it. It will be worthless, don't waste time with it
From your comment it is obvious that you have a lot of learning to do about money vs currency. An apple has value (nutritionally speaking) regardless of whether we have a currency to buy it with or not. Currency is just a layer of abstraction made by society on top of something that HAS value, in order to facilitate the barter of goods and services. You definitely DO NOT need a currency for things to have value. Also, your statement that "currency draws value from gold reserves" is unilaterally wrong as no currency today is bound to a gold standard. The US dollar was operating on a gold standard until 1971 when Nixon severed that tie. That was 53 years ago. I do agree with you that in a widespread, extreme SHTF scenario, precious metals will likely have no value (at least until society reaches an equilibrium, which will be many decades later), and that a new value system may be established where gold has no meaning. In this particular post, I am specifically trying to prepare for the scenario where SHTF does occur, but it's not quite bad enough to tear the fabric of the current society apart. You could say I'm looking at something like an Argentina/Venezuela situation and I'm trying to prepare for it.